Sex Work

Concrete Consequences From Sex Work Stigma

Criminalization really isn't the root of the problem that sex workers face.

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Sex Workers Outreach Project Phoenix/Facebook

Discussions of sex work in general, and prostitution in particular, often focus on questions of legality and prosecution. Should prostitution be decriminalized? Should it be regulated? Should we focus on "end-demand" laws, which prosecute johns more vigorously?

These are obviously important issues. Criminalization threatens the safety of sex workers in numerous ways—they can't report abuse or violence, can't screen clients effectively, and, of course, can be seized (and even abused) by police. But criminalization really isn't the root of the problem that sex workers face. Sex workers are despised in part because they're criminalized, but they're also, and perhaps first, criminalized because they're despised.

Decriminalizing prostitution without reducing any of the stigma surrounding it wouldn't necessarily stop police harassment of sex workers. As Melissa Gira Grant, author of Playing the Whore, told me, "even if all prostitution-related offenses were lifted tomorrow in the United States, we will continue to live with a criminal punishment system that targets women," especially poor, black, transgender, and gender-nonconforming women. If you get rid of prostitution offenses, police could hassle sex workers for things like loitering or jaywalking. There's always a way to police people if society and authority are determined to police them.

If prostitution were legal, and police continued to harass, arrest, or abuse sex workers (and especially black sex workers), who would stop them? Laws are important, but if the police and the society that controls the police have decided that your life is worthless, they'll find a way to let you know, whatever the legal code says. It's not supposed to be legal for police officers to kill black people arbitrarily; but as the #BlackLivesMatter movement has highlighted, the law doesn't matter much when stigma against black people is so great that you can't get a grand jury to indict.

Stigma against sex workers extends to those engaged in legal activities, such as making pornography, and makes them vulnerable in a number of ways. The 2012 documentary After Porn Ends chronicles numerous examples of discrimination faced by retired porn performers. Adult star Houston lost her real-estate job when her employers found out about her porn career. Another retired performer, Randy West, is financially secure and wants to donate his money to worthy causes—but charities won't take his money. More recently, when Belle Knox, a Duke University freshman, was publicly outed as a porn performer, she was bullied and harassed: "I was called a 'slut who needs to learn the consequences of her actions,' a 'huge fucking whore,' and, perhaps the most offensive, 'a little girl who does not understand her actions.'"

Financial institutions often refuse to provide services for sex workers—again, even when the individuals are doing nothing illegal. Last year, for example, Layton Benton and several other adult film stars had their Chase bank accounts closed without warning or much explanation. Benton had similar problems with Paypal, which accused her of fraud after she had a wire-transfer payment for a video. After the account was closed, she couldn't access the money for 180 days, which means she still hasn't received the funds. She won't until March.

And stigma against sex work extends even to people who aren't doing sex work as it's usually understood. Cindy Gallop is founder of MakeLoveNotPorn.com, a site dedicated to exposing sexual myths found in porn and teaching people about "real world" sexuality. The site is centered around a video-sharing platform, in which users can create their own sex videos, sharing in rental profits when other people watch them. Gallop sees her competition as Facebook and Youtube, rather than other porn sites. Nonetheless, she told me, financing has been almost impossible.

"I had no idea when I embarked on this venture that our team and I would have to fight every day to build it," said Gallop. "Every piece of business infrastructure, every other startup can at least take for granted. We can't because the small print always says, 'no adult content.' And this is all-pervasive."

Banks, Paypal, credit card companies; none of them want anything to do with her. "The fundamental obstacle for us is what I characterize as 'fear of what other people will think,'" Gallop said.  

Obviously, being unable to fund your startup is much less traumatic than outpourings of online harassment, and outpourings of online harassment are less traumatic than being subject to arrest and violence on the street. But all of it is part of a stigma which is expressed as much in laws, company policies, and fear of what others will think as it is in straightforward hatred or contempt. 

Focusing on stigma, not just laws, helps explain why even legal sex work is policed and vilified. It also makes the problem look more intractable. Changing laws will improve the safety of sex workers in many instances, but it won't end discrimination directed against them.

Projects like Make Love Not Porn may help, and the increasing visibility of sex worker advocates on social media and elsewhere is hopeful as well. But, again, we're still struggling to provide black people with basic protections more than 150 years after the abolition of slavery. Changing entrenched prejudices (and the prejudices against sex workers and black women are closely related) can be very, very slow. As Benton told me, "I feel like we're X-Men and people want to extinguish us.….I wish there were a way to show people we're actually people."

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  1. Nice outfits say boys everywhere:)

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/06/…..index.html

  2. Stop profiling trans women of color.

    …this is a sentence in 2015.

    1. This is public education in 2015

    2. What about white trans women? Do they not have enough victim creed to make it wrong to profile them?

      1. The bodies of white woman are valued by society, so society will be fine with them prostituting themselves, because as every good prog knows, prostitution is only illegal because the patriarchy places no value on woman – especially woman of color.

        1. Yeah, doesn’t make any sense to me either.

  3. How come politicos don’t get the same treatment? They’re as despised as sex workers.

    1. They’re more despised. And cheaper.

      1. And you don’t get off on them, either.

      2. Politicians don’t threaten the security women feel because they control access to sex, something they have been told and told and told that men must have. If a man whi wants sex could buy it in the open market without any more troubke than he would have buying a suit, a lot of lovely leverage goes pift.

        There is something seriously bent about society’s attitudes toward sex, and it isn’t anywhere near as simple as “sex should just be fun” or “we must stop sexualizing everything”.

        Our myths about “the Victorians’ attitudes toward sex” are largely claptrap. Our own beliefs about OUR attitudes towards sex are delusional. I just don’t even really see where to begin.

    2. Because the police report to them.

      We need to make them report to us instead.

  4. One good thing about my Java update warning…it reminds me to make coffee every morning.

    1. Reminded to make coffee. Does not compute.

      *clutches mug*

  5. Banks, Paypal, credit card companies; none of them want anything to do with her. “The fundamental obstacle for us is what I characterize as ‘fear of what other people will think,'” Gallop said.

    Probably, but that’s a free choice businesses can make. There are some payment services specializing in porn, and she could take bitcoin or start her own. This is one of the reasons porn has been a driver behind new technology.

    1. The US (In)Justice Department has been actively harassing banks that handle commercial account for disapproved busineses, including prostitutes.

    2. It is a free choice, which is good, but it’s still fucked up. I worked as part of a startup, a payment processor, and the owner had no problems taking on shady merchants that were borderline fraud (as long as they were profitable), but would not take anything related to porn or gambling, regardless if they were 100% legal.

  6. Sex workers are stigmatized because our culture still has retarded views and attitudes towards sex. Many cultures have treated sex workers very differently. When people lighten the fuck up about sex, they will lighten up about sex workers.

    1. They are mostly stigmatized because women want to control their husbands’ and boyfriends’ sexuality. If men can buy sex whenever they want, their wives and girlfriends have less power over them.

      1. There are plenty of males who stigmatize “whores” and “sluts” too, dude. It isn’t just women. Madonna/whore complexes are a big thing, for instance.

        As long as women having sex without being in a relationship is seen as somehow bad, you’re going to get stigmatization.

        1. Those men don’t have a fucked up view about sex so much as they do of women. There is that old saying is a whore is a woman who sleeps with everyone but you. The men I have known that have been particularly nasty towards women they considered “whores” were mostly just fucked up and hateful people pissed off at women in general.

          1. Well, that’s still a fucked up view of sex. It’s that women having sex with other men than them is bad. It’s also a fucked up view of women too, true, but it’s still intimately linked to sex.

            But as long as there are things like “walks of shame” because a girl went partying and decided to have sex with someone, you’re going to see that attitude reflected in stigmatization. It’s still, fundamentally, that women having sex without commitment is somehow bad.

          2. It goes like this John.

            A whore is a woman who will sleep with anyone.

            A bitch is a woman who will sleep with anyone but you.

    2. Many cultures have treated sex workers very differently.

      Amongst those cultures were the Classical Greeks and Romans, the Renaissance Italians, Enlightenment era French, Victorian British, etc. Pretty much the entirety of the Western Tradition, if you think about it. That Europe sought it fit to import the sexual mores of Iron Age Near Eastern shepherds has always baffled me.

      1. First, Roman sexual mores were both more conservative and more depraved than you say. Romans had very strict public morality with regards to their wives and family. What they didn’t have was any morality with regards to children and slaves. In Rome raping a child and keeping him or her as a sex slave was a prerogative of anyone who had the money to buy one.

        Of course Christians were then as always the enemy of all that was right and good. Unfortunately the whole child sex slave thing and a few other things managed to give Christians a bit of a good name in comparison to the Pagans.

        As far as the other times you list, it wasn’t usually that they endorsed it or thought it moral, it was that unlike us they understood the limits of law and viewed it as a quality of life issue to be controlled not banned. So hookers were legal they just didn’t ply their trade in respectable places or when they did, they were discrete about it.

        Our morals are not the problem. The problem is that we have gone nuts and think we can use law and the power of government to solve every problem.

        1. First, Roman sexual mores were both more conservative and more depraved than you say. Romans had very strict public morality with regards to their wives and family.

          That is true.

          In Rome raping a child and keeping him or her as a sex slave was a prerogative of anyone who had the money to buy one.

          That is not quite true, but the product of the writings of certain Church chroniclers who had an agenda.

          As far as the other times you list, it wasn’t usually that they endorsed it or thought it moral, it was that unlike us they understood the limits of law and viewed it as a quality of life issue to be controlled not banned.

          The fact that tradition of courtesans was strong enough to continue in Europe at a time when the Church held more power in daily life that it does now supports my point that taboos against prostitution have an alien origin with respect to Western culture.

          1. No. They have a tradition in every culture. They are nothing but a recognition of reality. You have to remember marrying for love is a pretty new concept. For most of history marriages were arranged and were done on the basis of practical consideration. You married who you were told. With that in mind, it makes perfect sense for society to make allowances for people to have sex outside of marriage.

            They were just being realistic. It wasn’t that they imported the concept in to temper the objections of the evil Christians. Moreover, every successful civilization has mores about sex and adultery. Before birth control, you couldn’t have a civilization without them. At most, civilizations bent the rules for men to fuck around when they wanted to. But no civilization embraced adultery on women’s part because doing so broke down the family structure necessary to even have a civilization in the first place.

            1. For most of history marriages were arranged and were done on the basis of practical consideration.

              That’s was only true of particular classes. Your average peasant wasn’t having his parents arrange a marriage for him. It really didn’t matter if he married Milk Maid 1 or Milk Maid 2.

              Moreover, every successful civilization has mores about sex and adultery.

              Now you’re conflating terms. The topic was attitudes about sex work. Not adultery.

              1. Your average peasant wasn’t having his parents arrange a marriage for him

                Effectively they were. They had very few options. People didn’t travel much. Arranged marriages have an even longer tradition among the lower classes than they do the upper. They had even less freedom to marry for love.

                Now you’re conflating terms. The topic was attitudes about sex work. Not adultery.

                It is the attitude about adultery that drives that attitude about sex work. Sex workers are looked down upon because they break the rules about adultery and out of wedlock sex and are thus not respectable women. Just because they were at times tolerated or even accepted, didn’t mean they were not second class citizens compared to respectable women. Madame de Pompadour may have been accepted and even influential in the French court, but she wasn’t the queen and never would be.

              2. In the United States there is no close analog to the peasant class (no matter how many people whish there were). By historical standards, anyone in the U.S. Who is not actually sleeping under a bridge is wealthy almost beyond belief. Not saying “look how wonderful we are”, just pointing out that comparisons to the poorer classes has limited usefullness.

  7. You’re gonna have to let me go. The money I gave that hooker was in a birthday card

    /Donnie Baker

  8. “Sex workers are despised in part because they’re criminalized, but they’re also, and perhaps first, criminalized because they’re despised.”

    So much so, that very recently 2 television announcers have been fired for soliciting. One on CBS and one on ESPN I believe ( lazy to Google their names). That’s the most terrible thing those two could have done?

    1. It is absurd. Unless the hooker was underage, what the hell is the big deal?

      But we can’t have men out being able to buy sex. Men must only obtain their sex by prostrating themselves to the power of women.

      1. I don’t know the specifics, the reporting was brief, but Rice can thank his lucky knuckles he wasn’t caught with a prostitute. Goodness knows what the NFL might have done.

    2. Well they certainly got some free advertising out of that.

      1. The announcers. Threads. How do they work.

    3. I hear that a madam fired two of her hookers when she found out they used to work as journalists. You gotta have *some* standards.

  9. There is also a huge element of outright snobbery and class hatred going on. Outside of the SOCONS, who hate hookers because they don’t like people having sex, most of the hate is driven by feminists. Feminists tend to be upper class white women. And upper class white women loath poor or lower middle class women. You can tell this is going on for two reasons. First, they don’t hate foreign sex workers. They are considered “victims of human trafficking”. They only hate American women who do it. The American women are not from a protected victim class the way the foreign hookers are. The American women are not victims. They are just nasty poor people who are too stupid to go to Smith like normal people do.

    The second reason is that none of them seem to be saying a word about the whole sugar daddy thing. There is an entire website devoted to college girls prostituting themselves to pay for college. Yet, no one seems to be upset about it or demanding it be shut down. The reason of course is the girls on that site are not poor women but in college and thus considered to be of a better class.

    1. First, they don’t hate foreign sex workers. They are considered “victims of human trafficking”. They only hate American women who do it.

      Which fits tightly with your competition argument, doesn’t it. The foreign sex workers have little chance of bagging the guy, at least in the upper-upper-middle class feminists’ perspective. The bigger threat to them is posed by the poor or lower middle class American woman.

      In much the same way, the college girl is making herself less desirable as a long-term prospect for the guys the feminists are in the market for.

    2. “Outside of the SOCONS, who hate hookers because they don’t like people having sex”

      Where do those large SoCon families come, then?

      1. come *from*

        1. “Well, Caleb, we just had another child, and you know what *that* means…”

          “But, Prudence, we had sex nine months ago!”

          “Just knock me up again and we can leave off sex for another nine months.”

          “Oh, very well, but let’s get it done in time for feeding the hogs.”

  10. Interesting timeline

    http://prostitution.procon.org…..eID=000028

    1. The US Supreme Court in Keller v. United States ruled that deporting a resident alien who become a prostitute after entering the US violates the Tenth Amendment.

      HOLY SHIT! I thought the SCOTUS’ copy of the Constitution omitter 9 & 10A. How is this possible?

      1. Answer: that case was over 100 years ago.

  11. People may do as they choose, PROVIDED in doing so they do not infringe upon the rights of others.

    Once again…libertarianism is the solution.

    This is simply the age-old tradition(?) of needing to tell others how to live…

    1. Because doing that requires accepting responsibility for your actions. If hookers are legal, then married men might use them. And this would harm wives. We can’t have wives holding themselves accountable for marrying the wrong man or men holding themselves accountable for the foreseeable results of their poor impulse control. No. It is the hooker’s fault that marriage was destroyed. And if the hooker is a protected brown person, then its the pimp or the website she advertised fault for promoting human trafficking.

  12. The irony which doesn’t get pointed out enough is that most people view porn, and there are plenty of clients for sex workers so they can stay in business. The same people companies are worried about looking bad to re the customers of the sex industry.

    There’s more than just feminist or religiosity involved in this. There’s just an overall amount of shame and projection going on. The normies feel bad for their urges and to cover for it, they need to treat the people catering to them as subhuman.

    1. The normies

      Good one.

      It seems to me that the biggest impediment to sex work is that many people believe that sex is something to be ashamed of.

      Let’s do a root cause analysis. Why are so many people ashamed of their sexual urges?

      1. Because for most of our history sex outside of marriage led to very unfortunate consequences. You can’t have a civilization without a family structure and a way to raise children. You can’t have that unless people are committed and know whose children are theirs.

        Before birth control and antibiotics sex out of wedlock threatened a lot of harm. It could get a unmarried woman pregnant and leave her with a child she couldn’t raise alone. It could give you a serious illness. It also could stick a man with raising a child that is not his.

        All of this created a tremendous amount of social pressure and need to limit sex outside of wedlock. Something that vital and that has existed for so long doesn’t just go away thanks to the pill.

        For valid evolutionary reasons humans and women in particular are just hard wired to associate sex with commitment and with child birth. Even if they consciously reject it, the predisposition is still there. Thus sexual promiscuity usually makes someone unhappy and people naturally tend to take sex very seriously because of it is naturally a big deal to them.

        1. For valid evolutionary reasons humans and women in particular are just hard wired to associate sex with commitment and with child birth. Even if they consciously reject it, the predisposition is still there. Thus sexual promiscuity usually makes someone unhappy and people naturally tend to take sex very seriously because of it is naturally a big deal to them.

          Evolutionary psychology is junk science on about the level of crystals. I am not repeating any new arguments here.

          I frankly can’t believe anyone believes in that shit. Consiciousness by its definition rises above our genes. If you think consciouness is driven by genes, then you don’t believe in free will and we are no different than animals. I have yet to meet a single believer in this shit who thinks that. But that is the implication of the theory.

          You can’t explain the origins of consciousness until you have a definition and understanding of what consciousness is. And we don’t have that. But that doesn’t stop half wits from making up fairy tails about how men like big asses because it is a sign of fertility and getting tenure.

          1. For the most part it is. And maybe it is not evolutionary. That is a big assumption on my part. The fact remains however, that people don’t as a rule do well having a lot of sexual partners and before birth control there were valid reasons why society and individuals shunned out of wedlock sex.

          2. that’s bullshit. People clearly have a LOT of innate cognitive abilities unique to humans, and lost of tendencies in aggregate.

            Any bunch of people, anywhere, will (and did) naturally develop building, and got it somewhat advanced. Humans have at east some engineering knack. EVERY society came up with marriage, which was very very similar across societies. Again, clearly this is innate.
            Language, talking, clearly this is innate. Ditto seeing signs (reading/riting, only a small percent of people are dyslexic)

          3. I frankly can’t believe anyone believes in that shit. Consiciousness by its definition rises above our genes. If you think consciouness is driven by genes, then you don’t believe in free will and we are no different than animals.

            I’m not sure where you get that idea that free will & genetic disposition are somehow mutually exclusive. It’s fine to acknowledge that there are certain instinctual drives which tend to shape human behavior/outlooks/values, in ways that may be generally conducive to our survival/well-being.

            This doesn’t reduce us into deterministic slaves to biological imperatives, given that one still retains freedom of choice to act in ways contradictory to these apparent drives.

            It also stands to reason that certain cultural practices/conventions tend to be more conducive to societal prosperity than others?e.g., the notion of property rights would be an obvious one; monogamy is another, as it reduces rates of internecine violence between males. I don’t pretend it’s possible for us to know a priori what all the societally optimal conventions might be, but at least a few we can safely infer in retrospect via experiential trial & error. So it might be that certain stigmas surrounding prostitution are symptomatic of a valid instinctual drive against something that isn’t biologically desirable for whatever reasons.

            Also: http://edge.org/conversation/h…..-evolution

          4. You are a fucking animal. Get over it. And I say that, knowing there’s a good chance your rejection of the idea is partially genetically induced.

        2. //For valid evolutionary reasons humans and women in particular are just hard wired to … ….because of it is naturally a big deal to them.//

          THIS.
          I don’t know if it’s as specific as you’ve described it, but at the very least it’s clear we have a strong pair-bonding instinct. It doesn’t last forever on its own, but it can be kept going with the right habits.

        3. “Before birth control and antibiotics sex out of wedlock threatened a lot of harm. It could get a unmarried woman pregnant and leave her with a child she couldn’t raise alone.”

          Thank goodness out-of-wedlock births aren’t a problem nowadays!

          1. They really aren’t. Not with a government that is willing to subsidize that failure. You are going to get more of it, and it is not viewed as a “problem” by those receiving the checks…

        4. Before we were aware of sexually transmitted diseases, we inherently recognized the need to pass on our genes and populate. Being part of the animal world, which evolved in the same manner, we formed groups (families) and fought off other groups/individuals who tried to take them. We are way beyond that point now and we have to deal with a sexual revolution that still makes everyone uncomfortable.

          Sex without any strings attached is a scary thing to most people. We are reminded we still have base instincts that have nothing to do with religion , civic duty, family commitment, or emotional attachment.
          Whoa, how are we going to reign in those horrible instincts !
          Criminalize it.

          1. If perhaps those men and women would declare a form of artistic expression we might find it in our conscience to legalize prostitution. Look how well it worked for the porn industry. Which is now a closely regulated industry with very few cases of abuse.

          2. //Sex without any strings attached is a scary thing to most people.

            Or maybe it’s just not nearly as fun.

            Also, there’s the jealousy issue. I don’t want some girl I like fucking random dudes. Actually it’s a mix of jealousy and being grossed out. Remember, those diseases haven’t been wiped out just yet

      2. Sex is gross. The only reason we generally don’t think it is is because it’s something we like to do/find appealing. But watch some large animals have sex, or just gay guys making out, something that doesn’t push your buttons. It’s gross.

    2. We have completely lost any sense of public shame or privacy. This has caused people to be unable to not worry about what goes on in other people’s private lives. I totally understand why someone would not want street walkers in their neighborhood or a brothel next door. Where we have gone insane is in caring so much about what you don’t know is going on behind your neighbor’s closed door.

      1. As long as their property is maintained and not rundown, and not giving off harmful fumes, I wouldn’t care if Walter fucking White lived there.

        Maybe if the prostitution laws WERE decriminalized and the profession destigmatized, we wouldn’t HAVE to run brothels from our residences. We’d just be able to lease a commercial building or buy an appropriately-zoned piece of land and set up shop there without harassment from the municipal authorities.

  13. It’s not supposed to be legal for police officers to kill black people arbitrarily; but as the #BlackLivesMatter movement has highlighted, the law doesn’t matter much when stigma against black people is so great that you can’t get a grand jury to indict.

    Stopped ready at this line of bullshit.

    Reason – stop playing nice with race baiters.
    Nothing good will come of it.

    1. Damn, then you missed this:

      “But, again, we’re still struggling to provide black people with basic protections more than 150 years after the abolition of slavery. “

      1. It is terrible to say but I couldn’t help but assume he was going to be a leftist douche as soon as I saw that his name was Noah. You shouldn’t judge people by their names but it sure does seem anyone under 40 named Noah is likely to be on a similar intellectual level as the writers at Gawker.

          1. So… you’ve got that going for you. Which is nice.

      2. What the fuck does that even mean?

    2. “Reason – stop playing nice with race baiters.”

      For whatever reason, they’ve clearly decided to go Proggy in the last year.

      I wonder if ProgPower is simply an irresistible force for any media org.

  14. I don’t think there’s anything that could (or should) be done to reduce cultural stigma surrounding prostitution/sex-work. Yes, obviously it should be legalized/etc. such that people can freely engage in said practices if desired. But the instinctive revulsion it often evokes probably won’t go away anytime soon (regardless of shifts in religious or moral outlook).

    1. Very true. Moreover, just like it is none of our business if someone wants to be one, it is also none of our business if someone wants to dislike one. We only have a right to demand it be legal. We have no business demanding people like it or accept it. That is their choice not ours.

  15. is any of this a huge problem? isn’t it only street-walkers who are prosecuted, which is actually a reasonable policy? There are plenty of sites where you can call girls’ numbers and hire them in either their place or your place or a hotel.

    It’s the street-walkers that “society” doesn’t want, not trannies in particular. Do the police EVER do stings on the call-only call girls? I’ve seen them bust the brothels in my area, which is understandable, because that’s also undesirable, but I’ve never heard of them busting individual call girls.

    The most I’ve heard of them busting the call girl types is when there’s a huge network and a lot of what goes on goes on in one residential place (again, undesirable), or MAYBE I feel like I’ve seen episodes of Cops where they call these call girls and set them up to get arrested. Then again maybe it was the Jons they were getting, I can’t remember.

    1. isn’t it only street-walkers who are prosecuted, which is actually a reasonable policy?

      How is that necessarily a ‘reasonable policy’?

      1. Conduct your business in a way that doesn’t harm your neighbor’s quality of life. That is a reasonable policy.

        1. Conduct your business in a way that doesn’t harm your neighbor’s quality of life. That is a reasonable policy.

          Private security hired by residential areas/businesses should be the ones enforcing those norms. Govt police/courts will invariably be more abusive in going about it.

          1. not everything can be private property. There is no avoiding that there is such a thing as public property. See below.

            As a developer I can tell you we’d be fucked if there were only private property. The liability would be stifling.

            1. not everything can be private property.

              Well, why not?

              1. I hate to pull up the “ROADZZZ” thing, but I don’t want to pay a private-residential-street toll every day just to pull into my driveway.

          2. Govt police/courts will invariably be more abusive in going about it.

            Invariably? Really?

      2. regardless of aspberger-douche doctrinair libertarian dogma, there is such a thing as public property. If I can own property, it would mean I could sell it to someone, or give it to someone, which then stands to reason I could give it to everyone. Developers do this all the time.

        So there is public property. It’s free for everyone to use based on the purpose of use (usually travel), but that doesn’t mean anyone can do anything on it. You can’t block anyone else’s path, you can’t just start selling things there (again, blocking the path). So there is some small element to society that the government has to regulate, beyond the libertarian NAP principle.

        1. So there is public property.

          So privatize the properties and let the market manage who’s allowed to be there.

        2. I get it; you suck at the government teat, and you don’t want someone fucking up your game. I wouldn’t want to be the Asperger Libertarian douche that sullies that logic.

          How can they have a law against prostitution but only enforce it against streetwalkers? And what the hell do you mean the government doesn’t prosecute call-girls? Because you’ve never seen it? This is your evidence?

          1. recognizing that there is such a thing as private property, which I actually outright proved based if you assume libertarian principles (remember what I said, if you can give away land you can give it to everyone), is NOT sucking at the government’s teat

            //How can they have a law against prostitution but only enforce it against streetwalkers?

            Easily. You just do that. What you just said. Like how there’s laws against Jaywalking even in New Jersey and yet I do I all the time and no cop cares.

            //And what the hell do you mean the government doesn’t prosecute call-girls?

            From what I understand. I’ve never seen a lot of that in the media. You could read the more detailed thing of what I wrote above.

    2. Sadly cops do and often harass hookers and Johns who are conducting their business in private. You are right that even though prostitution should be legal, it can still be quality of life issue. Street walkers suck and ruin any neighborhood they operate in. Just because prostitution should be legal doesn’t mean the tranny next door gets to fuck up my neighborhood by street walking and giving blowjobs in cars rather than conducting business in the privacy of her or whatever’s own home.

      1. well, yeah, and in general you can’t just operate any business/solicit on any public street. They are public streets. Banning/regulating /licensing such things is reasonable.

  16. For once I’m on the same side of an issue as the feminists, progs and Democrats.
    I agree that a woman has the right to choose what to do with her body.

    1. Do they really claim that? Every time I hear a feminist or a Prog talking about prostitution they are talking about human trafficking and how any man who visits a hooker is supporting evil. Maybe they give lip service to the ideal that women should control their bodies. But everything the subject comes up in the real world they seem to always have a reason to criminalize if not the woman certainly the man who does business with her.

      1. I am unconvinced that many who seem to “support” prostitutes do so only because they envision further extension of the nanny-state.

        1. ^convinced.

        2. If prostitution were legalized in the status quo context, you’d just end up with moralizing technocrats imposing exorbitant licensing fees, various ‘sin’ taxes on buyers+sellers, increasingly onerous STD testing mandates, etc.

      2. Sorry, I thought it was obvious that I was being sarcastic. You know one of the board memes is that when progs say you’re free to choose, they’re only talking about abortion and butt sex.

  17. Like sidewalk vendors carts, they, like, impede the flow of traffic man.

    1. Put them in cages! Harass them constantly!

      1. That costs extra.

    2. they’re licensed.

      And yes, in a lot of places a free-for-all would actually clog the street. Ever been to Manhattan Chinatown? On the weekend’s it’s fucked, and that’s WITH permitting.
      Not that it needs to actually clog the street to be rightfully ban-able by the public. They’re public streets, why do you get to slow me down even a little? They exist specifically for transit.

  18. Of course a lot of hatred of prostitution is irrational, i.e. “exploitation”, but there is always going to be a bit of stigma with it as long as children primarily come from women and not test tubes. You might be cool with random women being prostitutes, but you probably wouldn’t like the idea of your mother being one.

    1. Now why would you go and open that line of humor?

    2. If my mom was a hooker I’d still play scrabble with her. She is a Pentecostal instead which might be worse.

  19. “Your vagina’s are belong to us,” sniped the mainstream as it drank a six pack of bullets mixed with the blood of rascally collateral damage.

    1. Here we go…

  20. If you get rid of prostitution offenses, police could hassle sex workers for things like loitering or jaywalking. There’s always a way to police people if society and authority are determined to police them.

    That seems kind of small-minded and question-begging. Yeah, there’s always a way to police people if society and authority are determined to police them. The whole point of decriminalization is for society and authority to not police it. Duh. We’re not talking about forcing theft or rape decriminalization on society. We’re talking about society growing up, along with decriminalizing it, like they do largely to strip clubs and such.

    Yeah, strip clubs seem to manage just find with a lot of stigma, and, somehow, they can avoid loitering and jaywalking charges. Hell, a legal prostitute can just work out of her own home or her johns or a store front, like a strip club. No loitering or jaywalking needed.

    It’s great that you recognize that stigma and law are two different problems. However, I think a sex worker would much rather deal with stigma alone than with stigma and law problems. Because, funny how that works, when people don’t feel compelled to screw other people over using the government based on their own stigmas, then, gee golly, it turns out that other people’s stigmas aren’t so freaking hard to bear.

    1. ” when people don’t feel compelled to screw other people over using the government based on their own stigmas, then, gee golly, it turns out that other people’s stigmas aren’t so freaking hard to bear.”

      Live and let live is not a popular thought construct, panda bear. If it was the political structures scattered across the face of this fucking planetoid with trees and oceans would reflect a peacefulness humans are driven to avoid.

  21. I don’t want to tell libertarians how to be libertarian – it’s not like I want to be some kind of libertarian orthodoxy-enforcer. Nobody here would pull something like that.

    But I thought the libertarian position on hooking and prostitution was to legalize it, not promote social approval, any more than that want to promote social approval of heroin by legalizing it.

    On the contrary, the existence of a social stigma, even for a legal product or service, would I think *reduce* the need for laws against that product or service. Even those who don’t like it can be reassured that the stigma will do its work limiting the practice.

    1. But I thought the libertarian position on hooking and prostitution was to legalize it, not promote social approval

      Yeah. A coherent Libertarian approach would be value-neutral about it, abstaining from attempts to sway social approval in any direction.

      I’m sure most sex workers have already made peace w/ the fact that large tracts of society deem them gross, and so aren’t seeking any “hookers are people too” advocacy.

    2. I thought so too, and am interested that you’re the only one who brought that up.

    3. “I thought the libertarian position on…”

      Reason has clearly trying to Proggy itself up for the last year.

  22. And yet fag bashing was ended over a fairly short time. Why wouldn’t legalizing sex for $ have the same effect as legalizing homo sex? Gays & lesbians are still stigmatized, yet they go about their business.

  23. Google pay 97$ per hour my last pay check was $8500 working 1o hours a week online. My younger brother friend has been averaging 12k for months now and he works about 22 hours a week. I cant believe how easy it was once I tried it out.
    This is wha- I do…… ? ???? http://www.jobs700.com

  24. Google pay 97$ per hour my last pay check was $8500 working 1o hours a week online. My younger brother friend has been averaging 12k for months now and he works about 22 hours a week. I cant believe how easy it was once I tried it out.
    This is wha- I do…… ?????? http://www.jobs700.com

  25. No matter what form of “sex work” a person participates in they will be ostracized by their peers, “friends”, family…basically the “general population”.

    My background is irrelevant and quite frankly people’s opinions won’t be changed by MY story.
    I am NOT ashamed of being an “online dominatrix” for a good portion of my early to mid 20’s. I literally made videos humiliating men…(some women, but rarely). Skimpy clothing…no nudity…and you needed to be good at improv. I made fantastic money, but the job wasn’t exactly challenging. I quit everything almost 2 years ago because I outgrew it and it got boring. I enrolled back into school because if I wanted to play society’s bullshit game I needed to fork over a few thousands dollars to pay for what I had already taught myself.

    Anyways my point is I’m not ashamed of my past. In fact it was a huge part of my life that I am now forced to hide. I can’t change society’s view nor do I have the energy to try and explain, so I just tell people I did some form of web design. I had money frozen by Paypal (that was back in 2004 though EVERYONE knows you don’t use Paypal). I paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes. I currently have an income of $0 (but a decent amount of $$ in savings from all those unethical immoral actions I did).

    1. I paid a lot of money to the government. Everything I did was 100% legal. Look at it this way…Once a week I sat with a webcam and used my imagination to think up crazy stuff like taking your jizz to work. When I was really bored I built a green screen in my house to try and add crazy video effects. Seriously that was a good portion of my 20’s. If anything I was really tame.

      Society forces me to hide these stories. Spare me the bullshit that I could tell people…yes I could tell people…but it’s not worth making life harder for myself now that I’ve joined this bullshit system. I’m slated to become a PA…however, I’m fairly certain if my past were to come out (which it totally will I am not an idiot) I figure at that point I will be denied licensing. All because I spent a few years sitting in front of a webcam humiliating men. I’m sure I will be deemed unethical and my moral character will come into question. Which is a real pity because as a libertarian most regular people would want me on a medical ethics committee. You see I have no problems with people who do drugs, porn, yadda yadda. But the people in those medical offices (the ones that are so ethical) ya….those are the people that would push you out to the street to die. I’d be the one asking if you could pay for my services and wheeling your ass back into the building when you say yes.

      1. This is why we need to cultivate minds that are more open and less judgmental. If I were the one stamping the approval of your license, and I knew of your background, I’d think you were a very interesting gal that was focused and hard-working, and I would look at your school GPA and judge your merits on that alone. People seem to demand too much of people in certain professions. I just want to know you can get the job done, I couldn’t give a shit less about the fuzzy handcuffs in your attic.

  26. Six months ago I lost my job and after that I was fortunate enough to stumble upon a great website which literally saved me. I started working for them online and in a short time after I’ve started averaging 15k a month… The best thing was that cause I am not that computer savvy all I needed was some basic typing skills and internet access to start…
    This is where to start???.

    ????? http://www.netpay20.com

    1. See? Online call-girl services are lucrative AND non-invasive! 😀

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  28. “If prostitution were legal, and police continued to harass, arrest, or abuse sex workers (and especially black sex workers), who would stop them? ”

    If police continued to harass, arrest, or abuse *citizens*, who would stop them?

  29. If the people are just calling them names, then this isn’t a libertarian issue.

    I am free to tell you government shouldn’t harass you, and then tell you that you’re wrong. Quit your whining.

    (Full disclosure, Christ hung out with these “sinners”. He didn’t call them names, and I wouldn’t either. But he didn’t endorse what they did. He called them “the sick” and “sinners”. If you think it’s immoral to call them names, I agree. If you think it’s a libertarian issue, you’re wrong.)

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