Why Would A Store Think Cisgender Women Don't Want to Share a Restroom with Transgender* Women?

Transgendered woman required to use men's room. Why?

Sign

With regard to modern gender politics, just call me clueless. I just got a press release from the Transgender Law Center concerning the law suit against Saks Fifth Avenue by former employee Ms. Leyth Jamal, who happens to be transgender. Part of the lawsuit involves some legal rigamarole over whether or not the non-discrimination provisions of Title VII apply to transgender folk. Apparently the U.S. Department of Justice has just issued a Statement of Interest affirming that Title VII prohibits discrimination against transgender people.

Setting that issue aside, what puzzles me is why Saks evidently required Jamal to use the men's bathroom. After all, as I understand it, most public bathroom facilities catering to women have individual stalls with doors. Isn't that enough privacy?

Anyone want to clue me in?

Correction: Dropped the "ed" from cisgender and transgender to conform to AP style

Comments

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

You're clueless. Needs more buzzwords; heteronormative, patriarchy, blah, blah, blah....

[hatchr]

Also "mansplaining".

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

ooooo... yeah, I like that one

[Invisible Finger]

"transplaining" is probably in order here.

[Rhywun]

Tran-spotting.

[Almanian!]

+nice

[albo]

SJW

[Apple]

Sam reasons women wouldn't want to share a bathroom with men? Whatever those are. Someone with a penis smelling them poop?

[MiloMinderbinder]

Because some CIS-woman Saks Employee will sue her employer for creating a hostile and intimating work environment when she has to share the ladies room with a man who claims to be a woman?

[Tonio]

Because she knows, just knows, that the whole thing is just a charade that person went through just to share a toilet room with her.

This is the same sort of cluelessness that would lead someone to ignore all the difficulties of living as a transperson and say something idiotic like "a man who claims to be a woman."

[MiloMinderbinder]

I am not saying I approve or disapprove. Just point out how things work employment discrimination law.

[Tonio]

"a man who claims to be a woman"

[Careless]

What? Does he not claim to be a woman? Is he now XX?

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

I'm open to cross-bathroom participation as long as they've had the surgery.

I've had the experience of peeing next to someone in mid-transformation; boobs, twigs, and berries in one package. While I was a little startled to see breasts at the next urinal, I was still able to finish. 😉

[Tonio]

Most or at least many M2Fs have vaginoplasty. Relatively few F2Ms have phalloplasty, which is more difficult and yields less good results.

As far as breasts, that could be Chuck Schumer, though I'd understand not wanting to share facilities with him.

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

He/she hadn't paid for the vaginoplasty yet. Was still saving up. And the breasts were way too perky for Chuck.

[Aloysious]

As far as breasts, that could be Chuck Schumer...

Damn you for that. I am scarred for life.

[Tonio]

Sorry, Aloysius, but I can't believe you hadn't encountered Sen. Chuck and his moobs before now. That's a running joke here.

[Aloysious]

Oh, I have. You just caught me off guard, and I spilled my tasty beverage.

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

Finish what?

[DamienL]

The most common approach is to require people to spend a year living as a man/woman before they get surgery. So requiring people to have had surgery before treating them as a member of their chosen gender is problematic.

Most of the opposition to trans people using what they consider the appropriate bathroom is just bigotry. We don't have special bathrooms for gay people, even though the same arguments would apply to them. If you're concerned that the trans-woman in the stall next to yours is there to check you out, you should also be concerned about lesbians.

And, obviously, being trans gives you no free pass, so any inappropriate behavior would still get you in trouble.

[Illocust]

A large chunk of feminist don't like trans women, so things are much harder on the MtF than the FtM.

[Tonio]

I wouldn't have used the term "chunk" to describe that group of feminists, but yeah.

[Trouser-Pod]

Wait...I thought that it was a Chunk of Feminists

You know, like a Pod of Dolphins. Or, a Murder of Crows

[Tonio]

Oh, I like that.

[Almanian!]

I've always used a "curd" of feminists

[Trouser-Pod]

Well, here I was, liking my contribution, and Almanian goes and one-ups me.

I do think "Curd" (or, Curdle) is better overall. Chunk would inevitably get some people being pedantic if the size(s) involved didn't match the chunk mental picture they have.

[Invisible Finger]

I've always like "gaggle" of feminists.

[trshmnster the terrible]

How about we just go completely politically incorrect. A cunt of feminists.

[PapayaSF]

They're called TERF: trans-exclusionary radical feminists.

[The Late P Brooks]

WHAT IN THE GALLOPING FUCK IS THAT HEADLINE EVEN SUPPOSED TO MEAN?

[Notorious G.K.C.]

"Cisgendered" is what we used to call "normal," or "a man who knows he's a man, or a woman who knows she's a woman."

"Cisgendered" is a distancing term invented for propaganda purposes.

[Tonio]

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin, Eddie?

[Mary F. Crosby]

That is out and out BS. CisGender is a term like any others and aids in open dialog. Cis is latin for "on the same side as" and trans is latin for "on the opposite side of"

using the word CisGender is no more used for propaganda than the word "straight" when describing people who are not gay.

Your comment is ignorant and is itself a form of anti-trans propaganda!

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

Your heteronormative cisgender preferences for the patriarchy are showing.

Please proceed to your nearest gender re-assig...uh..., re-education camp.

[Apple]

I think I can translate it for you:

Why Would A Store Think Women Don't Want to Share a Restroom with Men?

[Xajow]

Cisgender has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis-, meaning "on this side of," which is an antonym for the Latin-derived prefix trans-, meaning "across from" or "on the other side of".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

[Notorious G.K.C.]

"Setting that issue aside, what puzzles me is why Saks evidently required Jamal to use the men's bathroom."

Uh, because Jamal has dangly bits?

[Notorious G.K.C.]

Again, will they accomodate trans-Emperors - people who identify as Napoleon Bonaparte - by giving them private bathrooms and attendants?

[Notorious G.K.C.]

And either a palace or a private island, depending on which phase of his career the person identifies with.

[Clich? Bandit]

Ya know, I am tired of the redefining of the word Emperor. Just like Admiral. In order to be an Emperor you must, MUST, have Kings/Queens of (now) semi-sovereign states paying fealty to you. Rome, Holy Rome, China at points, Japan, the Khanate.

Admirals MUST have Captains that report to them...so more than one ship. You can't be an admiral with only one ship...you are just a captain. You can't be an emperor if you own france, and whatever you conquer you call
france.

Side note: Both are butterflies too.

[Notorious G.K.C.]

Napoleon had plenty of kings under him.

And they weren't the onlhy people under him, if you know what I mean.

[Clich? Bandit]

Napoleon qualifies as an emperor like Kirk qualifies as an Admiral.

[Clich? Bandit]

Now Picard in First Contact? He was absolutely acting in a field admiral capacity.

[Notorious G.K.C.]

How dare you sir - look at this map and see all the "dependent states" subject to me.

You dare suggest I'm less than an Emperor - your insolence shall not go unpunished!

http://ow.ly/I2Qer

[Clich? Bandit]

weak...of those dependent states only Spain was a full kingdom. Those Rhineland ones don't count...they are run by petty thugs who drink too much Riesling. THIS is an empire.

[Clich? Bandit]

ya know, the more I think about it...the Governors act like little kings sometimes and Obama is sure usurping more control over the states...methinks there might be something to this "imperial presidency" jargon.

[Tonio]

Well, Eddie, we already accommodate people who believe in talking snakes, magic trees and transubstantiation.

[Notorious G.K.C.]

Ah, Tonio, we quarrel, but we just can't quit each other.

We're not so different, you and I.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnK-EmZME3Q

[Drake]

Why not just label the bathrooms with high-resoltion photos of the relevant body parts. It's the only way to be sure - and the only way I'll keep track of this conversation.

[Tonio]

Even easier - one-holers, ie single occupancy restrooms.

[PapayaSF]

You are totally reactionary, Drake. Don't you know that mere biology does not define gender these days? You can have a penis and be a woman, or a vagina and be a man. It's all about "self-identification."

[Drake]

Then how about the way we labelled field facilities in Marines: "Shitter" and "Pisser"?

[Careless]

What was that story about the abortion providers that stopped calling their clients "women" because it was exclusionary? I can't find it now

[PapayaSF]

There was the story recently that a university decided to end its annual production of The Vagina Monologues because it was transphobic.

[Careless]

http://www.newyorker.com/magaz.....n-2?src=mp

That might be an exaggeration, but only a slight one. The members of the board of the New York Abortion Access Fund, an all-volunteer group that helps to pay for abortions for those who can't afford them, are mostly young women; Alison Turkos, the group's co-chair, is twenty-six. In May, they voted unanimously to stop using the word "women" when talking about people who get pregnant, so as not to exclude trans men. "We recognize that people who identify as men can become pregnant and seek abortions," the group's new Statement of Values says.

[Riven]

As a regular user of the ladies' room, let me just say--you don't want to use it. Women's public restrooms are the worst.

[Apple]

As someone who, in another life, used to clean bathrooms in a bar, I can attest that this is true.

[Charles Easterly]

At a place I used to work the "Sanitation Engineer" complained about the same thing.

[Tonio]

Seconded, Apple. I worked in a fast food restaurant that did not serve alcohol but was part of the high school cruising circuit. Chicks are nasty. Sure, the guys would often dribble a bit of pee, but nothing compared to the deliberate restroom trashing the girls would do.

[PapayaSF]

Strange. Is it somehow related to this?

[Tonio]

Yes. Irish nailed it below. Granted, these were mostly drunken redneck high school girls, but still...

[Certified Public Asskicker]

But what about the couches!?

[Episiarch]

Mostly because of you, right?

[Riven]

You smear shit on a wall one time...

[MJGreen]

She has a mission.

[Irish]

I used to work at a pool and had to clean the woman's bathroom after hours.

Two thoughts:

1. You people are hair monsters who leave hair everywhere. Everywhere. It's like Cousin It went into a bathroom and rolled around with a man made entirely out of straight razors.

2. I used to find used tampons laying on the ground in there multiple times a week. Why? If I'm bleeding and use a band aid, I don't just leave the band aid lying on the ground, I put it in the garbage. And the band aid hasn't even been in my vagina or anything, which would make me even more likely to put it in the garbage rather than leaving it on the floor.

[Riven]

And the band aid hasn't even been in my vagina or anything, which would make me even more likely to put it in the garbage rather than leaving it on the floor.

Men are from Mars, women are from Venus.

[Pro Libertate]

Many women don't want to touch anything. So they have to piss on the toilet seat they don't want to touch, they throw garbage on the floor to avoid touching the garbage can, and so on.

[PapayaSF]

Bizarre, because there are sinks with running water and soap right there. You're going to wash your hands before you leave anyway, right?

[Pro Libertate]

You didn't just use oppressive male logic to analyze a female reaction, did you?

[Vernon Depner]

Hand washing would require touching the faucet, the soap dispenser, and possibly a towel dispenser and paper or cloth towel of unknown provenance. Not to mention requiring trust of the water itself.

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

You people are hair monsters who leave hair everywhere.

Don't get me started on the Lebanese guy I sublet my apartment to.

[Vernon Depner]

One of the more disturbing things I see the evidence of is that women actually EAT in restrooms. I know because they live the empty fast-food bags, pizza boxes, empty drink cups, KFC boxes, sporks and napkins, etc., all over the place with the other trash (not actually in the trash can, of course), and spilled drinks and crumbs on the floor. I can't imagine having a picnic in a public restroom?the idea is absolutely disgusting.

[Vernon Depner]

As someone currently employed as a public buildings custodian, I can attest that a "ladies" room at the the end of a busy day looks like a scene from a cheap horror movie, and that's the best reason for men to oppose unisex restrooms.

[Notorious G.K.C.]

You earthlings amuse me...on my planet, Gazonga, there are five separate sexes, and it takes a representative of each sex to complete the reproductive act.

I have tentacles for arms and antennae sticking out of my forehead.

And even *I* think this is silly.

[Bardas Phocas]

But where do they all shit?

[Notorious G.K.C.]

Foolish earthling, why do you think we keep visiting your planet? And why do you you think we only appear only in secluded rural areas?

[Certified Public Asskicker]

I think we need bathrooms divided by talkers and non-talkers.

Then, I can urinate in peace.

[Riven]

... People talk in the bathroom?

[Charles Easterly]

"... People talk in the bathroom?"

Some of those who aren't busy writing on the walls do.

[Riven]

I just prefer the written word. What's wrong with that?

[Drake]

I let my ass do the talking.

[Ska]

Talkers, non-talkers, and dudes who elect to use the middle urinal in an empty block of three.

[Ayn Random Variation]

People who talk on cell phones in the stall next to me? I hope there's a special place in hell for them.

[XM]

Men don't have good aim, and women (for some baffling reason) are enraged when men don't put the toilet sit down after they're done urinating. If Jamal sits down to do all of his business, I suppose that wouldn't be a problem.

I think a bigger question is, can a private business order a transgendered employee use a certain bathroom. If using a bathroom is a civil right, then why can't I just use woman's restroom? I have some feminine qualities.

Is there any reason why transgender women shouldn't take showers with women? Maybe as long as there are individual stalls?

[Mary F. Crosby]

Miss Jamal is a she. Please show respect for other human being's right to live as they choose!

http://www.TheTransGenTimes.com

[buybuydandavis]

And I am a unicorn.

Please address me as: Unicornis Buybuydandavis. Show some respect!

[Notorious G.K.C.]

By the way, I need separate bathroom facilities for my imaginary friend Harvey.

[John Titor]

John Crichton, is that you?

[Charles Easterly]

Wow, I immediately thought of this Harvey instead: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042546/

[Ska]

Me too. Isn't that the more common use of imaginary friend Harvey? Or are we just old?

[Spencer]

nope. that's what EVERYONE but JT thinks of.

[John Titor]

You people just don't appreciate dumb 90s Australian scifi. Also, you're old.

[Spencer]

nobody appreciates dumb 90s Australian scifi.

[Tonio]

I thought your imaginary friend was named Josh.

[Pro Libertate]

How about bathrooms for men, women, and other? Anyone who isn't solidly in the first two can use the third.

[Spencer]

i thought they had that already, but you had to be in a wheelchair.

[Pro Libertate]

Look, leave your judging ways back in the 20th century, where they belong.

[John Titor]

I'm reminded of the old Star Control games, which had bathrooms with a half dozen different styled toilets for different alien races.

[buybuydandavis]

Recent South Park. Hilarious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cissy

[Charles Easterly]

"Anyone want to clue me in?"

I notice that the Transgender Law Center (TLC) has a "Get Help" feature. Why not try to contact the individuals who work/volunteer there, Mr. Bailey?

[Spencer]

I've always wondered why there are separate restrooms anyway. I mean, can't we just all have stalls for everyone and then we don't need separate wash rooms?

Is this pie in the sky thinking?

[Tonio]

Too practical.

[Spencer]

when I was a kid my dad opened the first pizza place in Belize- off the main square in Belmopan. Before opening, an inspector came and told him he had to have 2 rest rooms: one for men and one for women. There was only 1 single use restroom, which he has been told previously was ok.

The inspector told him he would have to renovate, or there was a $500 cash permit fee to waive the requirement that only he could take. My dad told him he'd rather go over to the office and handle it, or the guy could fuck off.

The guy fucked off.

[Idle Hands]

No, this is what I advocate for every single time this topic comes up. Much like the communal showers in starship troopers the movie, it's the future.

[Spencer]

well, communal showers might not get much support. BUT, if that's a different story.

(Plus, I don't even like locker room showers, let alone one in mixed genders.)

[Pro Libertate]

Human defecation is remarkably standardized, across all of these lines, real or bizarro world. So treat it all the same, and fuck it.

Or, as I said elsewhere, Piss Boy.

[Invisible Finger]

There are cultural differences in shitting stances. How dare you force someone to defecate American-style?

[Pro Libertate]

All are free to dig a hole somewhere and squat. That was the whole point of the 9th Amendment, after all.

[Invisible Finger]

How dare you force someone to defecate Middle Eastern style?

[Spencer]

I defecate in the west coast style. check out my mix.

[Invisible Finger]

You really want women to be in the same bathroom as men in our rape culture?

[Ayn Random Variation]

I see this often in bars in NY, and find it sensible. A bunch of stalls across from a row of sinks, no urinals, and an attendant in the corner.

[SugarFree]

While I really don't care about most of the trans issues, I think the best case scenario of this movement is the creation of singe-serve bathrooms everywhere. It is a blessed relief to be allowed to urinate in peace.

[Episiarch]

Except for when you really need to go and the one bathroom is taken up by someone who just isn't coming out. Or when you go in and the one toilet has been desecrated by Riven to the point of being literally unusable. There's a reason that single-serve bathrooms aren't that common. One horrible person, such as Riven, can ruin it for everyone.

[Riven]

One time!

[Episiarch]

Sure, dude. Sure.

[Riven]

At least I've never upper-decked anyone.

[Idle Hands]

Lowerdecking is so passe. Ask anybody the squat and drop is the healthiest way to pass a load.

[Spencer]

reverse kanga all the way.

[Episiarch]

Sure dude. Sure.

[Tonio]

Careful, Riven, Nicole is very proud of her position as "The Worst" and doesn't look kindly on competition.

[Idle Hands]

Catfight!!!

[Riven]

It's ok; I'm apprenticing. We instituted the Rule of Two, so I won't become the worst until I truly surpass Nicole.

At which point, we will battle to the death over worstness.

[John Titor]

Whoever wins, we lose.

[(????)?? ???]

And if it's caught on camera, then whoever loses, we win.

[Spencer]

That's why we can't have nice things, Riven.

[SugarFree]

I see that. As the Demi-Worst, Riven does have that effect.

[Episiarch]

She seems to have been taking worst lessons from Nicole.

[Pro Libertate]

Why not reinstitute the piss boy?

[SugarFree]

Is Epi out of work again?

[Pro Libertate]

What I like about his piss boy work is the professionalism he brings. I know that would shock a lot of commenters here, but the man is dedicated to his job.

[Episiarch]

My gigolo business is going to take off, I swear!

[Pro Libertate]

It's hard to be a gigolo and a piss boy at the same time, as your consultants keep telling you.

[Riven]

Diversity is key, though!

[Pro Libertate]

Oh, he's diverse all right.

[PBR Streetgang]

You do Need to have multiple revenue streams

[Idle Hands]

No there should be a separate toilet for every different sex, race, and creed. Than and only than can we be equal. Separate and equal.

[Spencer]

I had a dream that i would never have to see another human being while eliminating waste. Together we can make that dream come true.

[Idle Hands]

There would be like a million different toilets for different libertarian sects.

[Idle Hands]

The real question would be where they put Cytotoxic.

[Tonio]

That's what swirlies are for, IH.

[Spencer]

in whichever stall we put people who hate arabs and persians.

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

I'm reminded of the guy who would go to the first-floor bathroom at 11:30am every day to jack it. The rest of us would have appreciated single serve bathrooms.

[SugarFree]

The pre-lunch crank down is a bad idea. Aren't you supposed to not eat for an hour-and-a-half after masturbation?

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

He was loud too. Can't concentrate with that shit going on.

[Idle Hands]

define loud? Like guttural moaning? or was he watching porn?

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

Like 1983 scrambled porn channel sounds emanating from a 300lb+ dude with suspenders.

[John Titor]

The fuck are you concentrating on while in the bathroom?

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

Excretion ain't easy....

[John Titor]

Is this one of those 'older men's problems' and I have to look forward to?

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

Just remember, Citrucel tastes like Tang, it's not bad at all.

[Riven]

Be a rebel, SF.

[Episiarch]

That's a myth, NutraSweet. Jeez.

[nicmart]

It was the great Tom Szasz who asked, if transsexualism, genital surgery, changes your sex, does a facelift, plastic surgery change your age and deserve to be caused transchronologism?

[Charles Easterly]

Is the correct answer plaid?

[Spencer]

that's a bad analogy and I wouldn't call someone who used it great.

It's like saying you feel like a plastic bag Drifting through the wind, wanting to start again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io88D1XldbA

[Hey Nikki!]

Do people who have good plastic surgery not often pass as younger than their real age?

[nicmart]

Passing is the same as being? People who have "sex change reassignment" claim to actually change sex.

[Mary F. Crosby]

TransGender people, on the inside, are that sex and it is something that most of us know from a very early age.

So, having a sex change does not make someone the4 opposite sex. it only makes their body match how they perceive themselves.

So no, transsexuals do NOT change sex. They were that sex to begin with.

http://www.TheTransGenTimes.com

[John]

Not really. They just think they do.

[buybuydandavis]

I'm a transchronological!

I like it!

[Tak Kak]

Because the Gutter Dykes will rain hell (or leaflets) down upon you.

[Tonio]

Eeeeew!

[Agammamon]

Anyone want to clue me in?

Are . . . are you being serious here?

I think the real problem is the traditional (and not unreasonable) conflation of *sex* with *gender*.

Our public restrooms are separated by *sex*, not gender (because for the vast majority of the population they are the same thing). Meaning a 'transwoman' (ie a man who 'lives' as a woman' is still *male* and should use the male restroom (and the same for a female who thinks she's a man).

Basically - if you've got meat and two veg, use the men's room, no matter whether you call it a kilt or a skirt.

[Pro Libertate]

It's quite simply handled. You stick your finger in a device outside the bathroom door that determines whether you are XX or XY. This and this alone determines what bathroom you get. If you're YY, then you get arrested.

[Spencer]

what about xxy?

[Pro Libertate]

You mean XYZZY?

[Almanian!]

Free Wilczyx!

[Spencer]

Just for you: http://bit.ly/1ysql7o

[Pro Libertate]

PLUGH.

[Spencer]

I don't look for treasure in caves.

[Pro Libertate]

That's where you err.

[Spencer]

what about meat and one veg?

[Almanian!]

Leave JOhn Kruk out of this!

[Tonio]

OK, serious question for the other guys here: How would you react to a FTM, or what some of you might call "a woman pretending to be a man" in a Men's Room?

[SugarFree]

Don't spray perfume and I will not care. My dong is for everyone.

[SusanM]

Was that you at the Pink Flamingo?

[SugarFree]

Probably. Was it bumpy like a warthog?

[SusanM]

Kind of...at first it seemed like an old Star Trek TOS prop someone left on a table.

[SugarFree]

That's me.

[Episiarch]

Glory holes are NutraSweet's jam.

[Episiarch]

I honestly don't give a shit, I would be completely ok with unisex bathrooms. I personally can't understand why anyone would give a shit, to be honest.

[John]

That is because not everyone is a different species like you are. Us humans get embarrassed around each other.

[Episiarch]

I pity you humans and your soft human brains.

[SusanM]

Because you have to equal and opposite Social Engineering Groups, each whipping up a frenzy over a trivial issue for their own ultimate benefit.

Having to use a particular bathroom is not the worst thing that can happen but transpeople represent such a statistically small percentage of the population that, despite the contrary impression from the media, the average person is more likely to get hit by lightning than to knowingly meet a transperson IRL.

[Puddin' Stick]

I should stay inside then...

[Old Man With Candy]

Epi, let me ask you a personal question: are you a leering Negro?

[Episiarch]

Sometimes.

[Trouser-Pod]

Oh, this is too good..

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've had some experience with it (man in process to woman, boobs plus junk). It caused just a slight fluctuation in the stream.

Nowadays, I just worry that I can't get the flow started at all. Don't care who's standing around.

[Almanian!]

+1 prostate

[Bardas Phocas]

Smile and nod politely and take my piss.
NO talking.

[Invisible Finger]

Asking for it?

[John Titor]

Eh, I've largely found the sex division of bathrooms to be kind of stupid in the first place. Some people might want more 'private' bathroom stalls as a result but all I really care about in my public bathrooms is the basic appearance of cleanliness.

[Idle Hands]

how would you even know? Does she like use this at the urinal(perfect gift just in time for valentines day)?

[Tonio]

Those have been around for a while. They were first marketed to the outdoor adventure sports crowd - women who didn't want to strip down and freeze while hiking, etc.

And back in the old days when women universally wore skirts these would have had no use.

[Nephilium]

One location I worked at we had that exact situation going on... No complaints at all.

Of course, as a guy who goes out to bars, I've also become used to women just coming into the men's room to avoid the monster line for the women's room. At no point in my life have I ever seen a guy go into the women's room to skip a line...

[Idle Hands]

I've done that. It's happened twice in my life.

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

So tell us about jail...

[Idle Hands]

I don't think that was the name of the Bar, but I was pretty hammered.

[Rhywun]

I wouldn't care less. After years of clubbing you see it all. Besides, it is the future if science fiction and Idle Hands above are correct. That said, I can understand if cis-ladies are a little touchier on the issue.

[Agammamon]

We already have to put up with women-women ducking in when their line is 'too long', plus a woman dressed as a man ducking into a stall to do here business isn't even going to get any more notice beyond 'hey, that dude'd make a hot chick'.

[Mary F. Crosby]

I can tell you for a fact that most TransWomen would get their asses kicked, especially in more redneck locals. It is VERY dangerous for us to use the men's room.

Add to that, that by forcing us to use the men's room, you are essentially invalidating our existence. We have a right to exist and a right to be in public spaces without the fear of violence!!!

http://www.TheTransGenTimes.com

[Ron Bailey]

Hi all: most comments seem to be from cisgendered males - I suspect that few of you would have any problem sharing a public bathroom with a transgendered male, right? Fwiw, "cis" is Latin for "on this side":

[Riven]

Thanks for othering me, jerk.

[Spencer]

it was reasonable for him to assume that you've fully othered yourself at this point- simply by showing up.

[John Titor]

Serial bathroom rapist isn't a protected class.

[Riven]

Yet.

[Spencer]

I don't care who pees next to me- as long as they don't splash. In fact, just give us all stalls.

[Pro Libertate]

As long as he doesn't look at me, talk to me, touch me, or even acknowledge that I'm in the bathroom with him, that's fine. Just like with regular guys.

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

As long as their junk doesn't make mine look like a Vienna sausage, I'm totally OK with it.

[Tonio]

Taking the high ground here, for once.

[SugarFree]

Are you talking about MtF or FtM?

I mean, unless I'm paying too much attention to my fellow bathroom patrons, I doubt I'd even register that a trans man was in the room. Unless the individual was using the urinal as a squat toilet or something.

[Invisible Finger]

+1 Kingpin

[Tonio]

I think he meant Transman (F2M).

[Pro Libertate]

To be sure, I noticed when women crashed the men's room at bars in college, which happened pretty much all of the time. Honestly, I don't think the men could've been more welcoming. It was like Mr. Roark and Tattoo.

[SugarFree]

My wife is the queen of barging into the men's room when the women's is busy. She says she occasionally gets some looks, but no one has ever been hostile.

[Episiarch]

I'm her male equivalent, I use the women's bathroom all the time when it is a single-serve and the men's single serve is busy. I've only been "caught" a few times and even then I've only been given a quizzical look.

[SugarFree]

Well, I mean which bathroom are people like you supposed you use? Why not just flip a coin each time?

[Episiarch]

I use whichever one's door picture looks most like the gender I feel like that day. Sometimes, I don't use either bathroom and just go in the corner. Those are the days I feel most like myself.

[Idle Hands]

Lines are meant to be either snorted or ignored.

[Pro Libertate]

Despite Jezebel's view of the world, my experience is that men like women.

[SugarFree]

Cis shitlord!

[Pro Libertate]

Well, we do. Most men, anyway.

[Tonio]

Some of us, PL, some of us. I mean I like them just fine, but not in the same way you do.

[Pro Libertate]

See? It's all good.

[Riven]

When you've gotta go, you've gotta go.

No one's ever looked at me sideways for that.

[Pro Libertate]

Of course. Let me extend an invitation to you on behalf of all men: Please feel welcome to use our bathrooms, wherever you find them. Well, maybe not in the Middle East or Canada. Really, better just make that in the U.S.

[SugarFree]

That hissing noise that some of them make is pretty freaky, but no worse than the guy groaning while shitting himself to death.

[Episiarch]

"WHO DOES NUMBER 2 WORK FOR?!?"

[Mad Scientist]

We can get through this together, buddy!

[Invisible Finger]

I have a problem sharing a bathroom with ANYONE.

[Irish]

'Hi all: most comments seem to be from cisgendered males - I suspect that few of you would have any problem sharing a public bathroom with a transgendered male, right? Fwiw, "cis" is Latin for "on this side":'

I wouldn't have a problem sharing a bathroom with a trangendered man, but I think there are women who are much more finnicky about sharing a bathroom with someone who was born male.

It's not weird to be uncomfortable with that, even though personally I wouldn't be.

[Mickey Rat]

"Fwiw, "cis" is Latin for "on this side":..."

Explaining it does not make a stupid neologism less stupid.

[Apple]

I would make fun of him for sitting down to pee, as I would any "man".

[Mary F. Crosby]

Apple, your ignorance obviously has no bounds as does your lack of humanity!!!

http://www.TheTransGenTimes.com

[Mike M.]

South Park already did an episode making fun of this whole thing.

[Lady Bertrum]

The obvious solution to problems stemming from sexism and gender confusion it for everyone to just shit and piss in the street. Problem solved.

[SugarFree]

So we just become Germans?

[Lady Bertrum]

I said 'in the street', not on top of glass coffee tables.

[SugarFree]

Ah, noted. But the German street urinal is pretty common.

And German toilets have a poop shelf so you can get a good look at it before you flush.

I wish I was kidding.

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

That's just a health check feature. The consistency and color all matter.

[SugarFree]

Poop shelf is weird. I stand by this.

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

Well see, there's your problem, you're supposed to sit.

[SugarFree]

Damn your shelf pooping ways!

[Lady Bertrum]

I was told the poop shelf was shrinking. The UN has a panel investigating and scientists are studying.

[Old Man With Candy]

I noticed that. I wondered about the reason and got several conflicting explanations. All I know if that the lack of immediate water immersion raised the aroma to an amazing intensity.

[buybuydandavis]

In Germany, that's a feature, not a bug.

[Pro Libertate]

I just learned that there would've been a Dieter movie if Mike Myers hadn't lost his shit. I am most deeply saddened.

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

-1 Monkey

[Pro Libertate]

I guess his story grew tiresome.

[BuSab Agent]

Indians who shit in the streets don't have these problems.

[Spencer]

they're called native americans now. and alcoholism is no joke.

[BuSab Agent]

The residents of India changed their name?! Why does no one tell me these things?

[Spencer]

they're either native americans or Pakistanis.

[Tonio]

So, what about naturally ocurring intersexed individuals, or what used to be called hermaphrodites? Where do they go? Do they have to have surgery?

[SugarFree]

Epi? Don't you want to field this one?

[Episiarch]

No, they go into freak porn, Tonio. Don't you know anything?

[Almanian!]

JOHN BOBBIT!

[Almanian!]

I'm still confused about how the three seashells work...

[Spencer]

it's ok- as long as you kill wesley snipes all will work out.

[Almanian!]

Simon says, "Time to die!"

[lap83]

Where are the special people going to go potty??? *frets*

[SusanM]

OT and sorry for the TP link: How about a real transgender issue?

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/.....r-justice/

The Arizona appeals court ruled that Jones' conviction be vacated, in part because the trial court used her past record against her. "For the trial court to have concluded Defendant was not credible and thus guilty because she was facing conviction and sentence deprived Defendant of a fair trial," the Court wrote. "The conviction must therefore be reversed and remanded to a new trial." The Court also acknowledged that there were issues related to the constitutionality of how Jones was arrested and convicted that were not addressed in the original trial.

[Tonio]

What about you let transfolks define their own issues, Susan? Perhaps for the trans community as a whole public restroom issues which they face every single fucking day are a big deal.

[SusanM]

Apparently you've not read my blog 😉

[Ayn Random Variation]

transfolks have to use public restrooms every single day?
That would piss me off as well.

[Azathoth!!]

reason covered this.

[SugarFree]

What I don't understand is that my wife reports one of the restaurants downtown as a large stall with two toilets that face one another. She also says there is often a line for it.

I don't want to get all gender essentialist, but what the fuck is wrong with girls?

[Lady Bertrum]

What happens in the two toilet stall stays in the two toilet stall.

[Lady Bertrum]

But if you really want to know, it involves knitting.

[BuSab Agent]

That's it! Woman card yanked!

[SugarFree]

I'm just assuming piss play and leaving it there.

[Tonio]

That is effed up.

[Old Man With Candy]

Here's my question: do you really want leering Negroes watching your daughter urinating?

Uh huh, I thought not.

Case closed.

[Old Man With Candy]

For that matter, would you want ME leering at your daughter while I was urinating?

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

Well since you put it that way.

[John Ashman]

Harry Anslinger does not approve.

Needs to be "pot-smoking, jazz listening negroes".

[Mary F. Crosby]

Oh My MotherFucking God!!!! That has to be THE most raciest thing I have EVER seen. How do you live with yourself you total bottom dweller. It is people like you that really makes me wish I was not a pacifist!!!!

http://www.TheTransGenTimes.com

[John Ashman]

BECAUSE IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS WHY. THAT'S WHY.

I feel like I'm back on Policy Mic again.

[Old Man With Candy]

What are the two words that will clear out a row of urinals?

[John Ashman]

Free beer?

[Old Man With Candy]

Nice try. Wrong.

[John Ashman]

I say it's a valid answer.

[Old Man With Candy]

Yes, you would.

[Aloysious]

Nice schlong?

[Old Man With Candy]

We have a winner!

[John Ashman]

Anyone who calls a male a "woman" shouldn't have the privilege of writing for a libertarian magazine because they're too damned stupid. Getting your penis chopped off and injected with hormones doens't turn you into a woman. EVER. It's like claiming that margine is butter.

BTW, where are the SJWs on mandatory labeling for transexuals? Shouldn't people know what they're getting on a date?

[Warty]

AND WHAT ABOUT ALL THESE GAY HOMOSEXUALS WHO ARE DESTROYING MARRIAGE AND SUCKING MY COCK???

[Tonio]

Not me, Warty. [runs from room, sobbing]

[John Ashman]

Well, I certainly wouldn't want sad homosexuals detroying marriage. That would be doubly awful.

[Tonio]

Oh, look, everyone, the n00b made a little joke to save face.

[Warty]

"N00b". And look, he successfully ruined a fun thread, so he got his jollies. Why people play these scumbags' game, I'll never understand.

[BuSab Agent]

Just cause you keep falling for the lady boys, doesn't mean it's a problem for any one else.

[John Titor]

I mean, Christ, have you seen those Thai ladyboys? Who the fuck cares at that point.

[Tonio]

Me. Eeeeew. I mean I'm totally supportive of them, but totally not my thing.

[John Titor]

Tonio, clearly not a fan of foreign and strange cuisine.

[John Ashman]

No thanks.

[John Ashman]

Not me, but liberals are into mandatory labeling because they don't like deception. So they say.

[John Titor]

Why would I care that you're from Iran?

[PapayaSF]

Recently there was a hashtag #FiveWordsToEndADate. I came up with "Do you like transexuals? Because..." and it got deleted. From Twitchy, a "conservative" site. People can be touchy these days.

[lap83]

maybe they were offended by you starting the second sentence with a conjunction

[Tonio]

Well, John, thanks for showing up and explaining that all to us.

And John, it's not actually chopped off so much as hollowed out and sutured in to a newly created body cavity.

[Old Man With Candy]

OK, so now I have my legs tightly crossed and I'm hunched over.

Thanks a fucking lot.

[Tonio]

Sorry, buddy. It grosses me out, too. So glad I'm happy in the body I was born with, even if I use the parts in an off-warranty way.

But as far as I'm concerned if you're willing to go through that, and the precursors, you've earned it.

[Old Man With Candy]

It doesn't gross me out, it just speaks to primal male castration fears.

[Old Man With Candy]

Like when people describe urinary catheterization. OWIE OWIE OWIE!!!!

[Tonio]

That's a foley. The Texas catheter is basically a condom with a hose connection.

[Old Man With Candy]

DON'T SAY FOLEY!

[Tonio]

"Foley, foley, foley..."

[walks over to table with various curious object and starts fondling them near a microphone]

[John Titor]

If either of you require further information on the wonders of body modification, I have links.

Hey kids, who wants to see how to make a multi-tentacled labia?

[Tonio]

No.

[Azathoth!!]

multi-tentacled labia

As a pandimensional, amorphous, blind, idiot chaos deity, I have to say--I am intrigued.

[John Ashman]

TMI.

[Tonio]

So new. So very, very new.

[John Ashman]

It still works.

[John Titor]

"When changing anatomical sex from male to female, the testicles are removed, and the skin of foreskin and penis is usually inverted, as a flap preserving blood and nerve supplies (a technique pioneered by Sir Harold Gillies in 1951), to form a fully sensitive vagina. A clitoris fully supplied with nerve endings (innervated) can be formed from part of the glans of the penis. If the patient has been circumcised, or if the surgeon's technique uses more skin in the formation of the labia minora, the pubic hair follicles are removed from some of the scrotal tissue, which is then incorporated by the surgeon within the vagina. Other scrotal tissue forms the labia majora."

[mad.casual]

Anyone want to clue me in?

Anybody want to clue me in as to why it's the government's (or anybody else's) business how Saks runs their employee restrooms?

Given the tradition of "making" use segregated restrooms and the new tradition of bludgeoning people and businesses with the law for not being 100% up to speed on latest trending tradition, I choose the former.

Why not just catheterize everyone and be done with it?

[PapayaSF]

Silly person, "discrimination" has been the government's business for generations now.

[John Ashman]

Nowhere in the Constitution is it their business.

No one gets to make someone else's stuff their business of their own accord.

[PapayaSF]

The Constitution? Isn't that like 100 years old or something?

[Pro Libertate]

Hey, wait, that's right! We're libertarians! Bathrooms should be used however the owners decide.

[Ron Bailey]

mc: I just asked a question about why a store thinks that cisgendered women don't want share with transgendered women?

Did I miss the word "government" somewhere in that question?

[mad.casual]

I just asked a question about why a store thinks that cisgendered women don't want share with transgendered women?

My mistake I assumed it was rhetorical instead of disingenuous.

Saks is probably trying to balance out the use of the languishing stalls in the men's room with the abundant use of the stalls in the women's room while simultaneously making every effort to put the women's clothing in men's minds while their pants are down.

Better?

[Fist of Etiquette]

Forget it, Ron. It's Chynatown.

[Almanian!]

WINNAH

[trshmnster the terrible]

Is it OK for me to simply not give a shit about this issue? Everybody is all pissed off about the crap going on, but in reality, nobody is peeing in anybody else's cheerios. Let's not take a giant dump on the Constitution by mandating these bathrooms, but let's not piss on business owners' legs and tell them it's raining.

[Old Man With Candy]

nobody is peeing in anybody else's cheerios

Speak for yourself. I do that every morning.

[trshmnster the terrible]

I see you branch out to fruit loops

[Old Man With Candy]

Is it OK for me to simply not give a shit about this issue?

I see what you did there.

[John Ashman]

Well, I see it this way. If this man still has a penis, it absolutely make sense that he use the man's room

If this man no longer has one, by his own stupid choice, then he needs to accept the consequences of his decision. If he can persuade the company with "hey, I can't pee into a urinal anymore", well, then maybe it makes sense to have him use the women's room because it's designed around peeing sitting down. And long lines.

[Tonio]

What about people who once had penises and lost them in accidents or due to cancer?

[mad.casual]

That's how I like my laws to be crafted! Repeated blanket application of rulings based on niche cases.

Men who's testicles have been removed can set the jar containing their testicles in the men's room and then proceed to use whatever restroom they please. Women with clitorus of excessive length will be required to sit in a urinal. By law.

Any other ideas? We really need to fubar things with some design by committee.

[GILMORE]

HOW IN HOLY FUCK DID THIS POST GET 300 COMMENTS IN LIKE AN HOUR

[GILMORE]

oh, and

"Anyone want to clue me in?"

I assume somewhere in the above 300 comments someone pointed out,

WOMEN COMPLAIN ABOUT EVERYTHING

its Saks 5th Ave. Do you think the male customers are their core concern? They can deal with the tranny. Rich Manhattan housewives are not about to be tested for their 'open mindedness'

[Russell]

Serves Saks right for stocking The Female Eunuch in the DIY and self-help section of its book department

[Ayn Random Variation]

Many of the newer hipster bars in my neighborhood have unisex bathrooms, where anyone can just use any of the 2 or 3 bathrooms. I find that this civilizes me a bit, as I usually tidy up in case a woman is waiting outside for me to be done.

[Puddin' Stick]

Does it civilize up the women?

[Mickey Rat]

Hipsters are a rather androgynous subspecies.

[JeremyR]

Because many transwomen still have penises, and a large number of them are still interested in women sexually.

[Jason1992]

very true..

[Jason1992]

This is a complex issue. Why? Lets say you are in the bathroom changing, half naked, or on the toilet with your pants down. The transgendered person walks in; you are unsure if they are heteronormative- I'll use that buzzword for you since you apparently think that is an actual word in a dictionary that wasn't invented by Tumblr. Put simply- you do not know if your privacy is being violated.

I knew one transgendered female lesbian who stalked women on the campus I was attending. The faculty didn't want to "deal with it" because it was a girl stalking girl incident and lets just pretend that those issues do not happen where a girl stalks a girl- especially a trans girl is doing it for sexual reasons. This trans person took literally thousands of pictures of women on campus, and got away with it because no one wanted to discuss that she had serious psychological issues. I would not feel comfortable at all around that if I were female.

One of her specialties was taking photos on odd angles (usually up pants legs, shorts, etc) and then asking others if it was feasible to photoshop clothing off. Um no. Oh and the porn on her computer of women, and her phone.

While not all transgendered or gay people are psychopath stalkers out for sexual pleasure, it begs the question- where is a sacred space? Bathrooms have traditionally been places you could go run and hide, cry, take a dump, etc without the interference of someone who sexualizes you.

[para_dimz]

How about providing a bathroom for transgendered people, alone. Now if they make the claim that this is somehow discriminatory that would beg the question, "in what way?" Is it about using the facilities among a gender they feel comfortable around or is it about being a voyeur in some manner? Or, I hadn't thought of this...would they claim that putting F2M and M2F in the same restroom would make THEM uncomfortable? If that would be the case then they should certainly understand the discomfort of the natrually genedered folks. I say give them their own restroom. I bet they don't like the suggestion.

[Azathoth!!]

And this is it. This is the poinr everyone seems to be overlooking.

The reason this issue has cropped up is that the M2F folks feel uncomfortable in the men's room.

Got that? They, as women, feel uncomfortable excreting around men.

They want something they refuse to extend to 'cis'women. They are offended that 'cis'women would even think like this.

And when I say 'they', understand that I am talking about less than 1% of the human population. Hells, 'they' doesn't even include all M2F people because some of them are sane.

See, we can't destroy every human tradition, dismantle every bit of human nature and human instinct for these increasingly tiny niches of humanity. Sometimes they need to be told that they're just going to have to deal with it.

Growing up, I knew a family of giants. The smallest adult was about 6'10". The kids were all over six feet tall. Their house was built to their scale. They didn't demand that the world alter everything to accomodate them.

[PACW]

I've tried to ask this question/make this point. Not necessarily in reference to restrooms but just in general.

It is frustrating to see people dismissed as cisgender or hetero-normative as an answer.

If I were inclined to use their language I would say that they are othering the people who are genuinely trying to understand the issue.