Guns

Cleveland Cop Shoots 12-Year-Old Boy Dead for Playing with Toy Gun

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Airsoft
Public Domain

A 12-year-old boy shot by Cleveland police for playing with a toy gun died in the hospital as a result of his injuries, the Associated Press reports.

The kid, Tamir Rice, did not threaten the police and was armed only with an airsoft gun. Police maintain that the fake weapon was missing its identifying orange tip, however.

Here's how it happened: Rice went to a local park to play with his friends on Saturday afternoon. Somebody saw them with the gun and called 911; the caller specifically told the operator that it was "probably fake." Nevertheless, the officer dispatched to the scene saw Rice putting the gun into his waistband and told him to raise his hands. According to The Huffington Post, the kid did not immediately comply; instead he tried to take the gun out of his pants. The officer fired twice, hitting Rice in the stomach. He died Sunday.

The Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association maintains that the dispatcher did not relay the information that Rice's gun was probably fake. That's obviously a very important detail, if true. And we will certainly need more details to render any kind of judgment. The officer has been placed on leave, and the department is investigating. The U.S. Department of Justice was, in fact, already investigating Cleveland PD for its aggressive use of force in the past.

So, we'll see. But this is terrible, whatever the justification—or lack thereof.

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403 responses to “Cleveland Cop Shoots 12-Year-Old Boy Dead for Playing with Toy Gun

  1. Shooting kids: the most pure example of how the pigs view us as a different species. You have to be damaged in the way that only pigs are to shoot a fucking kid who is pulling a toy gun out of their waistband. Oh, and also be a pants-shitting pussy extraordinaire. Is there anyone more cowardly than the pigs? Anyone?

    1. Actually, your post does nothing but paint you in a rather bad light. After all, you’re the one who essentially stated that police are not entitled to self-defense against deadly force.

      A police officer is told by dispatch that there’s someone waving a gun around — officer investigates, sees a kid with what looks like a real gun. A real gun is just as deadly in the hands of a kid as in the hands of an adult. The gun looks exactly like a real gun, and so when the kid disobeys the officer’s orders and draws the gun, he is shot just like anyone would be.

      If you wait until an attacker actually kills you, it’s too late to defend yourself.

      Yeah, it’s tragic that a kid got killed over a toy, but the officer had no way of knowing it was a toy. He acted completely correctly. If you want to blame anyone for this, blame the dispatcher who failed to pass on the caller’s belief that it was a toy.

      1. Except the cop’s job is to accept some risk in order to shield the public. Shooting a kid who hasn’t even cleared the fucking fake gun from their waistband in the stomach is the height of cowardice and not accepting the risk that is part and parcel of their job.

        Defend the cowards, though. Go for it. Own it. Maybe if you’re lucky, you’ll get to shoot a kid in the stomach for playing some day.

        1. But if he did it, not being a cop, you wouldn’t have a problem with it. Self defense. Liberty. What the second amendment is for. You seem to think that cops should have less of a right to self defense than ordinary citizens, I think that’s bullshit.

          1. And you seem to think cops shouldn’t be held to a higher standard with the authority and privilege that comes with wearing a badge.

            I think that’s bullshit, especially when they get put on undeserved pedestals as heroes by simple virtue of their occupation.

            1. I believe the right to self defense should be considered to be a basic human right. A right, not a “privilege.”

              1. T Brow makes a good point. We all have exactly the same right. If I see a cop with a gun in his belt, I am going to tell him to get his hands up NOW. If he does not comply immediately….

                1. Good luck with that.

                  1. Really? Because you JUST FUCKING SAID…

                    Fuck it.

                    1. Coplickers never notice or care about their own hypocrisy in their defense of their masters.

              2. It doesn’t appear to me that the “privilege” he was referring to was self defense. Rather, he was referring to the privileges that come with wearing a badge.

            2. And you seem to think cops shouldn’t be held to a higher standard with the authority and privilege that comes with wearing a badge.

              You make it sound like they personally benefit from the “authority and privilege”. They have just as much authority as they need for their job, and they have no particular privilege (well, at least no more than any other public sector employee with a union).

              1. Are. You. Fucking. Kidding.

                ??????????????????????

              2. They have just as much authority as they need for their job, they have no particular privilege

                Right, no more no less. Keep telling yourself that. It’s called ‘qualified immunity’, the existence of which could be gleaned by less than 60 seconds of research into the matter.

                1. Calling “qualified immunity” is not a privilege.

                  It is absolutely stupid to argue that we should demand a special willingness of cops to lay down their lives because they get special “privileges”. A “privilege” only motivates someone to take extra risk if they personally benefit from it. Qualified immunity doesn’t provide any personal benefit.

                  Are you seriously so stupid to think that lecturing cops about their privileges or “demanding” that they behave better is going to result in a less violent police force?

                  1. Are you seriously so stupid to think that lecturing cops about their privileges or “demanding” that they behave better is going to result in a less violent police force?

                    In which you tacitly admit cops are thugs divorced from any sense of being public servants?

                    Pray tell, what is your solution?

                  2. Qualified immunity doesn’t provide any personal benefit.

                    Deference from courts as well as personal immunity from prosecution or liability for actions taken while wearing a costume, is not a privilege? What other profession gets immunity for inadvertently committing crimes in the commission of their job? Do you think they behave better or worse for having this immunity? Much a less a profession tasked with fighting crime. It’s an elephant in the room that you claim doesn’t exist.

                    Are you seriously so stupid to think that lecturing cops about their privileges or “demanding” that they behave better is going to result in a less violent police force?

                    Who said anything about lecturing them? What my proposed solution is, is an entirely different can of worms that I don’t think you have the foundation to process without tremendous educating work on my part.

          2. I don’t think I’d shoot to kill a 12 year-old I met in a park for carrying what might or might not be an actual gun. (Seriously, whether informed by the 911 dispatcher or not, why was the cop’s first thought not “Hey, it might be a FUCKING TOY, just maybe?”) So no.

            1. Depends on the circumstances, which is why everyone here needs to rein it in until the details come out.

            2. ANY reasonable human being would assume any gun in a child’s hand was a fucking toy. Only a cowardly fucking pussy would think otherwise. Jesus fuck, what has this fucking country come to?

              1. “ANY reasonable human being would assume any gun in a child’s hand was a fucking toy.”

                Really? Always? You can go ahead and do that. I’d rather be a ‘cowardly fucking pussy’ than dead.

                  1. And I’d rather be dead than accidentally shoot a 12 yo with a toy.

                    What the fuck is wrong with you?

                    1. If I was that pig I’d go home and swallow the barrel of my service weapon.

                    2. Homicide offending by age:

                      http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cj…..ta-table-3

                    3. I want to live? I have self-preservation instinct and expect others to have it? WTF is wrong with you that you can’t empathize with others? I’m not even saying the officer’s right but the reasoning used so far does not meet my (admittedly stringent) standards.

                    4. I wouldn’t shoot a 12 yo with a gun, and I’m the insensitive one.

                    5. Insensitive and irrational. Double plus ungood.

                    6. It’s easy not to shoot 12 year olds; I do it all the time, simply by living in a safe neighborhood and not working in a profession that forces me to make such decisions. I assume you take a similarly easy route out.

                      Neither of our choices says anything about our characters. When push came to shove, you probably would sacrifice someone else’s life to save your own.

                    7. Cytotoxic, you cite a self-preservation instinct. That’s all fine and well and I agree that everyone has a natural instinct to defend themselves. That said, we don’t use lethal force on any perceived danger. We don’t strangle someone if we don’t hear them coming up behind us and they startle us. Even if that natural self-preservation instinct flairs up in response to what we momentarily perceive to be a dangerous scenario, we generally don’t kill over it.

                      We assess the likelihood that we actually NEED to use lethal force. And the law very much requires us to do so. What is the likelihood that a CHILD who doesn’t even have his “weapon” drawn is going to kill a police officer with more firepower, a partner, potentially substantial backup availability, and a vehicular advantage? Simply having an instinct to protect oneself is not enough.

                    8. Moreover, you also should have an instinct not to spend the rest of your life in prison. Which is where I can guarantee any non-cop who pulled the trigger would end up.

                1. Yea, because there’s hundreds of stories of 12-year olds pulling out real weapons when a cop’s telling them hands-up.

                  1. Past trends don’t rule out extraordinary events.

                    1. yeah, but intelligent risk management doesn’t equal “do whatever you would do in the worst case scenario.”

                      99.99999999% of the time, kid on playground has toy gun.

                    2. Just how many kids have you murdered on one in a hundred billion chances they might be out to do you harm?

                  2. The are more than 300 murders every year committed by children under 16. I’d say there indeed are hundreds of stories like that.

                    1. And how many murders of cops by 12 year olds? (hint: you can count it on your vaginas)

                2. I aree with you in this case.

                  But we need to remember that these “rules of engagement” are more drastic than our soldiers had in Iraq,

                  Just to put things in perspective.

              2. With a couple hundred million guns circulating around – and with them being a dime a dozen among certain populations, assumptions would seem to say it’s a real gun.

                Not even that excuses shooting down people. Cops need to get ahold of some better non-lethal force.

                1. Got any stats on the number of Airsoft, pellet, and BB guns in circulation? Compiled with the number of “realistic” toy guns? Care to wager on which number is higher between that and actual firearms?

                  Also, when you say “certain populations”, what exactly do you mean, there, Craig ol’ buddy?

              3. Please go back to jerking off to Ayn Rand porn and let the adults do the talking

              4. I think the issue isn’t so much one of “coward fucking pussies” as you so eloquently put but one where if a white kid has a gun its assumed a toy but if a black kid does then it must be real.

          3. But if he did it, not being a cop, you wouldn’t have a problem with it. Self defense. Liberty. What the second amendment is for. You seem to think that cops should have less of a right to self defense than ordinary citizens, I think that’s bullshit.

            I would absolutely have a problem with it because you shouldn’t open fire on a kid in a residential neighborhood unless you’re certain he’s some kind of threat.

            Moreover, someone would go to jail if he did this – unless he’s a police officer. The issue is that we actually hold cops to a lower standard than the general public when it should be the other way around.

            1. Amen, Irish, your last paragraph… Ya fuckin’ NAILED IT! Good freakin’ job!

            2. The last paragraph nails it.

            3. If the piece of shit who called the death squad to meet this kid had done the shooting himself, there is absolutely no question that he’d be in jail. That makes a cop’s position a privileged one. Deference in courts and grand jury inquiries is in fact a privilege. Qualified immunity is the lower standard.

              1. ^this^

                If I see a 12 year old doing similar, I will confront him or move on. These PsOS are in fact the reason we get more of this.

                This became fatal because it was called in.

          4. You seem to think that cops should have less of a right to self defense than ordinary citizens, I think that’s bullshit.

            Horseshit! What would have happened if the average armed citizen did exactly what that pig shit cop did? He’d be, rightfully, in a fucking rape-cage!

            1. This is true.

          5. Bullshit. A “civilian” would never be afforded the benefit of the doubt by the system in a situation like this, nor would any of the commentariat here defend them. You don’t think cops should have the same right to self defense as ordinary citizens, you seem to think cops should have carte blanche to kill anyone in any situation. Oh, you think that’s unfair? Well maybe your characterization of Episiarch’s position wasn’t exactly made in good faith.

            1. Cops do get more of the benefit of the doubt than non-LEOs do, that’s true. But an armed citizen, confronted by a robber with either an Airsoft or a BB gun, who then shoots said robber, isn’t getting charged. See, this shooting in Jacksonville, or this one in Auburn, Michigan in 2009.

              The damned things look just like real guns. If someone is pulling a 1911 out of their waistband, while I’m telling them to put the gun down, I’m going to think they’re trying to shoot me. And I will try to stop that deadly threat to my life.

              As I said in another of the Ferguson threads, cops do enough hyper-aggressive stupid stuff already; we don’t need to hammer them for doing something that anyone of us would have done in a similar situation.

              1. Cops do get more of the benefit of the doubt than non-LEOs do, that’s true. But an armed citizen, confronted by a robber with either an Airsoft or a BB gun, who then shoots said robber, isn’t getting charged. See, this shooting in Jacksonville, or this one in Auburn, Michigan in 2009.

                Both cases you cited were instances where a the BB gun was used to committ a violent felony and in both instances the perpetrator of said felony actually wanted to give the impression that it was real.

                1. In those situations the people responding, like the cop responding to this case, thought the deceased were pointing a real gun at them. A 12 year old kid, pulling a pistol out of his waistband, as the cop is telling him hands up, don’t move, or whatever else he was shouting (though, with our luck, it was probably something like, “Put the gun on the ground!”), is moving in a way that he’s constituting an immediate threat to life. No one, not you, not me, not a cop, should have to put up with that.

                  Should the kid have lived, I’d be fine with the cops charging him. Not sure with what, since recklessness isn’t sufficient mens rea to convict for assault with a deadly weapon. Moot point since he’s dead. You are right that, in the instances I cited, the deceased had the desire to intentionally commit robbery, while the kid did not. That just changes the criminal liability the kid incurs, not the impression that a reasonable person would have had in the cop’s shoes.

                  1. In those situations the people responding, like the cop responding to this case, thought the deceased were pointing a real gun at them.

                    Yes one group actively worked to give this impression as evidenced by the fact that they were committing a violent felony with the fake weapon. The other group did no such thing nor were they committing a violent felony with their fake gun.

                    No one, not you, not me, not a cop, should have to put up with that.

                    The law says differently of everyone EXCEPT COPS. Fact is, that a non-cop shooting this kid for no good reason, and a misidentified weapon IS not a good reason, would have been jailed for the murder of a child.

                    That just changes the criminal liability the kid incurs, not the impression that a reasonable person would have had in the cop’s shoes.

                    Bullshit. The armed robber WANTS people to think he has a gun. He is using it to threaten. He is actively committing a crime with the weapon. The child was not committing a crime and it’s up to a reasonable person to decide when deadly force is warranted. A reasonable person would not have shot a child, as evidenced by the markedly lower incidence of non-cops shooting children than cops, despite that cops are vastly outnumbered by private gun owners.

                    The cop should bear the responsibility of having erred, like anyone else would.

        2. Except the cop’s job is to accept some risk in order to shield the public.

          Some risk =/= waiting for someone to shoot you to see if their fake gun is real.

          1. A soldier in a combat zone according to our ROE has to wait to be fired upon. Need positive ID that they are a threat which means they have to be aiming the gun or have already fired.

            So, we expect our soldiers, already at a greater risk, to show more restraint than our police officers.

            1. Which is asinine and awful and most of why America did so badly in Iraq and Afghanistan. Weird how our cops and soldiers are being reversed in their roles.

              1. Which is asinine and awful and most of why America did so badly in Iraq and Afghanistan. Weird how our cops and soldiers are being reversed in their roles.

                We lost in Iraq and Afghanistan because there was no way to win. We set objectives that could not be met and were then surprised that we failed to meet them.

                The fact that you think making our soldiers more trigger happy would have helped the situation is completely absurd. We didn’t fail in Iraq due to not killing enough Iraqis.

                1. The fact that you think making our soldiers more trigger happy would have helped the situation is completely absurd. We didn’t fail in Iraq due to not killing enough Iraqis.

                  We didn’t fail in Iraq at all. The Iraqis did.

                  America’s asinine ROEs are absolutely why America fails in Afghanistan, as well as the unrealistic nation-building stuff. At one point, soldiers in Afghanistan had to run out in battle and draw fire before air support could kill the enemy. Killing the enemy always works.

                2. Vietnam redux. We did not lose ‘Nam. We gave it away.

                  We did not lose Iraq. We gave it away.

                  ‘stan? Well you may have a point there.

              2. Which is asinine and awful and most of why America did so badly in Iraq and Afghanistan.

                Those conflicts were characterized by active insurgencies and most of the death was dealt with homemade bombs. Not that a war worshiper like you is capable of seeing that.

                1. So, if you see Osama bin Laden pointing an AK-47 in your face, you aren’t allowed to shoot until he shoots?

                  no.

                  1. So, if you see Osama bin Laden pointing an AK-47 in your face, you aren’t allowed to shoot until he shoots?

                    What the OP actually said:

                    A soldier in a combat zone according to our ROE has to wait to be fired upon. Need positive ID that they are a threat which means they have to be aiming the gun or have already fired.

                    The first sentence seems to contradict the second, but I think the second sentence is accurate.

                  2. There are targets identified before hand and the rules are obviously different. Dumb comment.

                    I didn’t phrase that 100% accurately. There needs to have positive ID the person is a threat which means more than their just having a weapon or the soldier feeling threatened.

                    And in situations like erratic cars or unruly individuals, soldiers have to use escalation of force proportional to the threat. Cops really don’t.

                  3. I think the threading failed us Mr. T Brow.

                  4. So, if you see Osama bin Laden pointing an AK-47 in your face, you aren’t allowed to shoot until he shoots?

                    Um…difference between a known lawful combatant and a civilian.

                  5. So, if you see Osama bin Laden pointing an AK-47 in your face, you aren’t allowed to shoot until he shoots?

                    You’re not allowed to shoot, because he was dead ten years before this “happened” to you.

          2. Tough shit. That’s what body armor is for.

            1. Have fun getting anybody but Robocop to accept ‘tough shit’. Body armour OTOH is a good idea.

            2. I’m fine with the ‘tough shit’ approach as soldiers enlist willingly to go fight.

              I just expect the same standards for cops. There is no reason they should get to walk around using the justification that they felt threatened when there is, in reality, a miniscule risk to their safety.

              Cops probably shoot and/or kill more civilians than the other way around in this country. They aren’t operating in a warzone so there is no justification for allowing them to have a weaker set of restrictions on the use of force than actual soldiers.

              1. Their ‘feelings’ don’t justify actions but these particular circumstances just might. You guys should be more cautious in this instance.

        3. Exactly, and if it was still in his waistband, how would he know it did not have the red tip? I think
          someone should have to at least start pointing the gun at you before you fire. A cop should be confident enough that he can out shoot a 12 year old that he can give him a second or two.

          Also, how about a stop or I’ll shoot warning? The city should be sued and the people responsible for the poor training should be put on trial along with the cop.

          1. Now that is a good point.

        4. Except the cop’s job is to accept some risk in order to shield the public

          The shittier and riskier we make the job of police, the worse the kind of people who take that job will become.

          Defend the cowards, though. Go for it. Own it.

          What’s there to defend? People like you don’t deserve anything better than the lousy police force you likely have. The rest of us just move away.

          1. Give me a break. It has been demonstrated many times that police DO NOT have a very risky job. Nowhere near the top of the list of deadly professions.

            I could just as well argue that the more we allow the police to kill without fear of penalty, the more appealing the job is to those who wish to kill with impunity.

        5. I keep seeing this statement from people like you “accept some risk”…WTF are you talking about?? Just because someone becomes a police officer doesn’t mean they assume a passive posture with a target on their backs…are you kidding? You weren’t there, you clearly are NOT a cop so before you start making judgments why not ride along with them and see what they truly have to deal with….otherwise, enjoy the safety you enjoy because of people like this…police are NOT public enemy #1 contrary to what these libtards claim in this country…

      2. Actually, your post does nothing but paint you in a rather bad light as a big a fucking pussy as the fucking cop.

        After all, you’re the one who essentially stated that police are not entitled to self-defense against deadly force.

        Except…THERE WAS NO DEADLY FORCE! JUST A COWARDLY COP!

        Oh and…

        Fuck off Tulpa!

      3. Considering that probably 80% of kids lay with toy guns, and .0000000001% shoot people any person not functionally retarded would probably assume it’s a toy.

        For fuck sakes, under your justification anyone wearing a backpack could have a bomb so fire at will.

        1. 80% of kids lay with toy guns

          Awesome. That’s a John-level typo.

        2. Pretty much. just yell “stop” and, if they do anything other than immediately respond as of they heard you and are complying, shoot them two times in the head.

          You know: for the children.

        3. Actually, there is about one homicide per day on average committed by a child under the age of 16 in the US. There are 20 homicides per year committed by kids between the age of 9 and 12. So, a precocious 12 year old carrying a realistic looking weapon is something people should reasonably take seriously.

          Parents shouldn’t let their kids play with realistic looking guns in public. Having free range kids requires a minimum of common sense from the parents and the kids.

          1. There are 20 homicides per year committed by kids between the age of 9 and 12

            How many with firearms, how many were deliberate?

            Oh, and out of 330,000,000 people, you call that something that can reasonably (drink!) be considered a threat?

          2. Are you kidding? There are 20 million kids in the1 0-14 age range in the US. 20 homicides per year is .0001% . That is not a reasonable fear. You’re way more likely to be struck by lightning (1 in 10,000) and or killed by a meteorite (1 in 750,000).

          3. There were 25 homicides by children under 14 in 2011. The number is consistently in the 20-40 range and that doesn’t take into account the amount who use guns or that some are accidents. This is a make believe boogeyman man. Lightning kills the same amount of people on average as children under 14.

            The number of gun murders by children per year is vanishingly small.

      4. My 2?:

        Cops are supposed to protect children, with their own lives as necessary.* Anybody, cop or not, should be willing to take the risk of MAYBE catching a bullet themselves rather than risk killing a kid. I would rather be dead than have the life of a child on my conscience.

        *Maybe I am too 1950s.

        1. Talk is easy.

          1. It is, even if you are defending a spineless child-murderer.

            1. True. Which is why we have juries to look at the facts and decide such cases, and determine the rules for the use of deadly force through representatives.

              1. Except that cops rarely get prosecuted (even if charges are presented to a grand jury, the grand jury itself is generally composed of people who have ties to law enforcement).

          2. It’s not just talk, I saw a kid playing with a toy gun today and heroically managed to not kill him.

      5. “If you wait until an attacker actually kills you, it’s too late to defend yourself.”

        If your top priority is defending yourself then you should not be a police officer.

        If a person panics at the thought of dealing with potential violence, then they need to find a job where they’re not constantly throwing themselves into situations that they can’t handle like rational human beings. They’re endangering everyone around them.

      6. The dispatcher passes on the caller’s (untrained) opinion that it’s PROBABLY a toy, and the cop ends up dead. Blame the PARENTS for a) giving a kid a realistic-looking airsoft gun b) allowing the kid to play with it in a public park (airsoft guns shoot projectiles) and c) not training the kid to obey reasonable requests from a police officer, especially when weapons ar involved.

      7. He had no way of knowing? Are you retarded? He had a very easy way of knowing “Hey kid, is that a real gun?” “No officer, its a toy…look”

        That fucking easy you simple minded twat

      8. I agree that Police officers have a right of self defense but they also must accept risk to serve and protect. Only as a last resort or to protect someone else should they use deadly force.

      9. Are you going to come back and apologize now that video show the officer’s claims that he told the boy to put down the gun and the kid disobeyed were a complete fabrication?

    2. More “cowardly”? How about YOU, for anonymously second-guessing someone who is out there risking his life to protect YOU.

      1. How about YOU, for anonymously second-guessing someone who is out there risking his life to protect YOU.

        Protect you, shoot you, let’s not quibble over the details…

  2. They re getting more efficient. Last time the CLE PD needed 139 shots to kill an unarmed couple.

    1. I know I shouldn’t laugh at that.

  3. I fucking KNEW that the orange tip shit that came in the 90s would become an excuse for killing kids. “Hey man, no orange tip, good shoot!”

    Fuck I knew it.

    Rice went to a local park to play with his friends on Saturday afternoon. Somebody saw them with the gun and called 911; the caller specifically told the operator that it was “probably fake.”

    And the 911 caller has some culpability here. I don’t care if that makes me sound like a dick. I’m a dick, get over it. Now sue the bitches ass until she bleeds loose change.

    The Cleveland Police Patrolmen’s Association maintains that the dispatcher did not relay the information that Rice’s gun was probably fake

    Yeah, because the number of 12 year old kids that this cop has been threatened by previously… zero, carry the zero…

    1. I remember in the 80s when the first examples of cops shooting kids with toy guns happened. They immediately started whining about how it was impossible to tell the difference, and that 12-year-olds were an actual threat, because GANGS and shit. Fucking pathetic cowards.

      But the Seahawks won decisively! Of course the Redskins can’t manage to put the Niners away today. God damn it.

      1. That’s the interesting thing: Why didn’t cops shooting kids with toy guns happen before the 1980s? I had toy guns, they didn’t have orange tips.

        1. Cops weren’t cowardly pussies back then.

          Of course, that can be said about most people.

          1. Then why did people become that? Is it a worldwide phenomenon, or localized?

            1. It started around 1990, and it is nation wide. Men stopped being held to the standards of men. When it became alright for men to cry.

      2. Redskins major suck. RGIII especially.

        Hey… look at that little monkey run!

    2. The toy gun was an accurate, realistic replica. Aside from hefting it and discovering the balance and weight don’t match, it’s not something you would look at and think ‘toy’ — you’d look at it and think ‘M1911’.

      The main benefit of guns as weapons is they make everybody equal — they’re one of the few weapons ever invented where size and strength are irrelevant. A 12 year old kid with a pistol is just as deadly as a 300lb linebacker with that same pistol.

      The kid had a toy that looked 100% real, and when the officer (who couldn’t know it wasn’t real) gave him a serious order, the kid treated it as a joke. The officer wasn’t joking, and acted completely appropriately when the kid drew a gun on him.

      1. The police are supposed to evaluate the totality of circumstances, including the age of the person they’re confronting, and take INCREASED TACTICAL RISK to avoid killing an innocent kid that might be playing with a realistic toy.

        Sorry, your “I couldn’t tell it was real so BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM” doesn’t fly.

      2. Only a cowardly pussy, like you Tulpa, would shot a fucking kid.

        1. This has got to be the stupidest ‘argument’ you could have possibly whipped out. This is like that scene in Bruno where he uses a dildo as a weapon.

          1. Fuck off Cyto. A cops job is to make sure 12 yos DON’T get shot, not to shoot them themselves. And they are paid to protect and serve. That means they risk their lives for others. This guy is a fucking coward.

            1. I know you’re talking about what should be, not what is, but this should really be made clear to all. The police protect and serve the government, not the general population. The police, and their public masters, see the public as expendable, and merely a resource to be exploited.

      3. Last I checked guns are legal, so unless he’s shooting someone who gives a fuck. You think a human with a gun is a justification to kill… It’s not retard. And he’s 12, holy shit use your fucking brain.

      4. You’re right. There could’ve been a whole army of 12 year olds armed with suspiciously lightweight firearms just waiting to ambush unwary police officers.

        I say we enforce a shelter-in-place policy and then nuke the entire city from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.

      5. What a joke!
        You cannot dispute the facts that this was a 12 year old CHILD with a fucking TOY! You are everything that is wrong with this country and the militarized police force. Go kill yourself and let the 12 year old kids live. You have obviously failed at life and do not deserve to live. That kid could have grown up to be a great person but was killed by a moron like you.

        1. To be clear, my response was to Gindjurra…whatever the fuck that means..

    3. I fucking KNEW that the orange tip shit that came in the 90s would become an excuse for killing kids. “Hey man, no orange tip, good shoot!”

      And you know damn well, the first thing any kid, who isn’t a fucking pussy, is going to do is get rid of the orange tip.

      1. And the justification for the (surely upcoming) ban on toy guns?

        “Experts say that known gang members paint the tips of their real guns orange so as to mislead the police.”

  4. Jesus Christ. I was just visiting some young cousins who were running around shooting each other IN THE HEAD with these airsoft guns. They were in the middle of the road in broad daylight with other neighborhood kids. Thank goodness no police or crazy neighbors were around…

    1. Most airsoft guns look like toys. This particular case was a movie replica accurate airsoft pistol.

      I’ve seen a picture of it — I wouldn’t be able to tell it wasn’t real short of a close range inspection.

      1. So shoot a 12 yo first and ask questions later…

        You fucking coward.

        1. Why do you feed Tulpa?

          1. Gindjurra, I thought, was a regular here. I didn’t think it was one of Tulpa’s socks. His posts don’t read like Tulpa’s did, IMHO. I could be wrong, of course.

            Not everyone who disagrees with you guys is trolling. If the 12 year old is pulling a 1911 out of his pants, while I’m yelling at him to not touch the gun and to put his hands up, then yes, I’m shooting him too. And from the cites I included above, provided I had a good reason for being in the situation in the first place, I don’t think I’m getting indicted.

            Requiring police to wait until they see muzzle flashes is hockey helmet-wearing retarded and, to an outside observer, places you and the rest of your arguments in the group with the “Why didn’t he shoot the gun out of his hand?” or “Well, I would have just shoot him in the leg.” Etc.

            It’s a different situation than if the cop shot him while the gun was still in the waistband, or if the kid had an airsoft rifle that wasn’t pointed at anyone. In this instance, the kid is confronted, and still decides to draw. What else is the cop supposed to think?

            1. Gindjurra, I thought, was a regular here. I

              No. It’s either Tulpa or his more retarded meat puppet.

              1. O.K., crap you’re right. I’m thinking of Gojira (sp?).

                Still a lot more lucid, less peanut butter-fetishy, and a loss less troll-y than his norm, if it is him.

  5. And the chances of anything happening on this… zero, carry the zero.

    The deputy “fired his weapon in response to what he honestly and reasonably believed was an imminent threat of death to himself or others,” she said.

    ‘While this was absolutely a tragedy, it was not a criminal act,’ Sonoma County District Attorney Jill Ravitch said.
    KTVU
    ‘While this was absolutely a tragedy, it was not a criminal act,’ Sonoma County District Attorney Jill Ravitch said.
    Gelhaus opened fire on Andy after he asked the boy to put down the gun twice, police said.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/new…..-1.1858306

    1. Gelhaus opened fire on Andy after he asked the boy to put down the gun twice, police said.

      See? It’s really his fault. Little bastard should have just complied. And that’s not an exaggeration of their position.

      I think there would be far less police shootings if we could just dispel the notion that cops are our friends and instead instill in all people the incontrovertible fact that cops have the authority to summarily execute you for failure to obey their commands.

      1. See? It’s really his fault. Little bastard should have just complied.

        Well…yeah he should have. It’s a very realistic looking fake gun. Still not sure where to come down on this but ‘it’s only a fake and he’s only 12’ is extremely weak and silly.

        1. Yes, it’s a common sight in America for a kid to be carrying around an actual AK-47.

          1. It was an M1911 replica. It looked just like it. It’s still rare, and scary. This is pretty weak.

            1. The link Paul posted was to a story about a shooting in Sonoma, California over the summer.

              The 14 year old was carrying a pellet gun that looked like an AK-47

            2. Scary? You fucking pussy…you are justifying the murder of a 12 yo child because you are scared of a fucking air soft gun that shoots plastic pellets? You sir/madam are a moron of the nth degree and should summarily remove your self from the gene pool. The depth of your stupidity is staggering and you should do the world a favor.

              12 year CHILD
              TOY FUCKING GUN

              The only thing that is weak is your pathetic attempt to justify killing a kid. Fuck you a million times!

        2. What if he’d been carrying a real gun? Was he threatening anyone with it? Where was the cause to tell him to put it down in the 1st place, let alone shoot him for reaching for it?

          How did we survive the 1950s as kids toting realistic toy revolvers in public, pointing them at each other, etc.? Apparently one of my toys spooked a bank teller once when Mother put it unthinkingly on the counter after I gave it to her, but nobody got shot.

          1. This is also a good point.

          2. Hell, I grew up in the rural south, so there were plenty of times as a kid where I had an actual gun. Granted, my father was with me at the time.

            Also, I’m white.

        3. P.S. nearly ALL airsoft guns are realistic look alikes to REAL guns.

        4. I’m tired of making excuses for trigger-happy police. If they really want disobeying a cop to be grounds for summary execution then we should require the police to argue exactly that. Loudly and repeatedly.

      2. If the gun was in his waistband, how is he supposed to “put the gun down” without pulling it out of his waistband WITH HIS HANDS?! How could the officer tell there was no orange tip IF IT WAS IN HIS WAISTBAND?! Hello? Anyone home? Too much cognitive dissonance here.

        1. Those are good points.

    2. ‘While this was absolutely a tragedy, it was not a criminal act,’ Sonoma County District Attorney Jill Ravitch said.

      Nonsense; everything’s a criminal act. I’m sure Ravitch could find something to charge him with if she wanted to. Curious that she’s not interested in doing so.

      1. ^This

        You win Knarf.

    3. So the officer told him to put the gun down, and the boy then took the gun out of his waistband (which he of course has to do to comply with the order to put the gun down), and then the officer shot him?

  6. I am going to need more info, and proof the cops aren’t lying, before I get to a conclusion.

    1. and proof the cops aren’t lying

      Were the cops’ lips moving? Well, then. That’s all the proof you need.

    2. Well, then, it’s a good thing the cop’s friends are looking into the incident.

  7. And what’s the proper reaction to over-aggressive police tactics? Make a law banning toy guns!

    1. It’s not overaggressive in this case, since the toy in question was an accurate replica weapon.

      If someone draws what looks like a real gun on you, only an idiot or suicidal individual waits to be shot before defending himself. The law doesn’t require that you die before being allowed to defend your life — as soon as someone draws on you (or tries to) you’re allowed to defend yourself.

      Guns are just as deadly in the hands of kids as they are in the hands of big, strong men. That’s why they’re so useful as weapons, you don’t have to be big and strong to use one effectively.

      If a kid points what looks like a real gun at you, will you choose to die or live?

      1. It’s not overaggressive in this case, since the toy in question was an accurate replica weapon.

        It is absolutely over aggressive.

        If someone draws what looks like a real gun on you, only an idiot or suicidal individual waits to be shot before defending himself.

        You seem to be crafting your own narrative, was the weapon drawn and pointed at the officer?

        Guns are just as deadly in the hands of kids as they are in the hands of big, strong men.

        So every kid carrying an item in his hand which could be misinterpreted for a weapon is on a valid kill list?

        If a kid points what looks like a real gun at you, will you choose to die or live?

        If I see a 12 year old kid playing with what looks like an assault weapon, I’m going to hang back and watch a while and see if there’s any reason I might consider it real. If at some point I decide to confront the child, I may put something between him and me, call out and ask him to drop the weapon so if he’s “full of THC” or some other substance, and doesn’t comply immediately, I’m not forced to unload my gun on him.

        I take command of the situation to allow it to ratchet up slowly before I have to use deadly force. I don’t come within 12 feet of him and start screaming “drop the weapon!”. What that does is startle the kid forcing me into split-second decisions that need not be made.

        1. Yes. This. If you are called to a scene to respond to an unknown threat, or a threat of unknown extent, the first thing you do is observe and quantify the threat from a safe position. Not walk right up to it and let the chips fall where they may.

          1. Now Paul and Meriwether might have points, but both assume facts not yet in evidence.

            “You seem to be crafting your own narrative, was the weapon drawn and pointed at the officer?”

            Uh, well, you presume the cop ‘immediately’ acted.
            You further presume the circumstance allowed careful observation.
            Maybe, but I’ve yet to see anything that says so.
            Got information I don’t?

            1. An officer responded to a 911 call with bad and incomplete information. A cop shot a kid dead who was holding a fake gun. It happened in Cleveland, which has a history of bad police violence. That’s the information I have. What have you got?

      2. I’ve had a kid point a toy gun at me, so have most adults. We somehow managed to not kill anyone.

        1. Marktaylor|11.23.14 @ 9:10PM|#
          “I’ve had a kid point a toy gun at me, so have most adults. We somehow managed to not kill anyone.”

          And that relates to the story how?

          1. In going to say it relates in that in the story the cop killed a child who supposedly pointed a gun.

        1. “Coward” is not an argument.

          1. Actually, it is. I expect cops to take one when they aren’t sure. ESPECIALLY when it’s a 12 yo kid.

      3. And when real guns look like toys?

      4. “If a kid points what looks like a real gun at you, will you choose to die or live?”

        Seriously, if killing everyone that you perceive as a personal threat is the gold standard of public safety, then why bother with cops at all?

        If lethal force is always justified then any random person with a weapon can do that just as well. For a whole lot cheaper. And if those people make a mistake and kill someone they shouldn’t, there’s a chance they might actually be held criminally responsible.

      5. The law doesn’t require that you die before being allowed to defend your life — as soon as someone draws on you (or tries to) you’re allowed to defend yourself.

        Go try this on a playground sometime, then. See if you go to prison or not.

  8. The officer has been placed on leave

    What kind of “leave”?

    1. The paid kind. What else?

    2. I believe we all know the answer to that

  9. This cop would make an excellent and viable shooting range target.

    1. Why do you believe cops have no right to self-defense when someone threatens them with deadly force?

      I’ve seen a picture of the ‘toy’ gun. I wouldn’t be able to tell it from a real M1911 at greater than arm’s length, and the cop was a lot further away than that.

      While a lot of police claims of self defense fail the reasonability test all self-defense uses of force are supposedly subject to, this one doesn’t. The kid was ordered to stay still by a cop, the kid chose to draw a realistic replica gun on the cop instead.

      A kid dying is tragic, but there really wasn’t any other reasonable outcome.

      1. Kids play. Cops kill kids that play. Can you finally just grow the fuck up and stop acting like a dummy?

      2. Why do you believe cops have no right to self-defense when someone threatens them with deadly force?

        I’ve seen a picture of the ‘toy’ gun. I wouldn’t be able to tell it from a real M1911 at greater than arm’s length, and the cop was a lot further away than that.

        Dispatch: We have a report of a kid in the street with a gun.

        Officer: 1 Adam 12 responding, has there been any reports of shots fired?

        Dispatch: Not at this time, only some kids in the street, one seems to be carrying a long-barreled weapon.

        As I’m driving towards the scene, I’m already thinking… “hmm, kids in the street, no one around seems to be threatened by him, no shots fired… gee, this might be a realistic replica. I shall act accordingly.

        1. Paul… we need your fucking thinking types on the streets.

          Oh, wait… Paul can’t be hired… his IQ is over 120.

          FUCK! sez the open society.

        2. That’s the problem with those who justify this stuff. They don’t expect cops to use any common sense, and thus the cop becomes justified for expecting the worst at all times.

          12 year old kids shooting cops isn’t exactly a common occurrence in this country. Cops shooting kids for what they think are guns, on the other hand, happens a few times every year…at least. Those are just the ones I catch in the national media.

          It would be nice if we had actual stats on such things, but the government has no interest in keeping them.

          1. It would be nice if we had actual stats on such things, but the government has no interest in keeping them.

            Well if we kept those stats then people might figure out that cops are a greater threat to public safety than they are worth.

          2. Because Barney couldn’t use common sense, Andy only gave him one bullet and he had to keep it in his pocket.

  10. OT: Is the world laughing at us yet?

    ITEM ONE: U.S. Army Spc. Sabryna Schlagetter kisses her wife, Cheyenne, after returning home to Fort Carson, Colorado, with other members of the 4th Infantry Brigade Combat Team on Friday, November 14. The couple married on Valentine’s Day this year before Sabryna deployed to AFGHANISTAN.

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/21/…..?hpt=hp_c2

    ITEM TWO: Suicide bomber kills 45 at AFGHANISTAN volleyball game

    1. Why? I don’t get it. Are you tying gay marriage, volleyball, and Afghanistan together? I’m missing something.

      1. Actually, a good number of people are probably rubbing one out to item one.

        1. I’ll be in my bunk barracks

    2. Keeping the junior enlisted’s skanky wives tradition alive!

      1. Yeah, the tats make it, don’t they.

    3. That is hilarious, Libertarian! Everyone knows you only need 12 people to play volleyball! 45 dead? Don’t you think that’s – overkill? OMG, literally, amirite?

      Ha ha ha!

  11. Kids name is Tamir, he’s probably a Black. Since we haven’t heard race mentioned, the cop is probably Black as well.

    1. It’s Cleveland. Black on black crime is as rampant as found in Chicago outside the rich ramparts- the which I visit often and weirdly.

  12. A soldier in a combat zone according to our ROE has to wait to be fired upon. Need positive ID that they are a threat which means they have to be aiming the gun or have already fired.

    So, we expect our soldiers, already at a greater risk, to show more restraint than our police officers.

    1. Like I said above, those ROEs need to be abolished.

      1. Yea, we tried it without the ROE’s in the first few years, and it didn’t go over so well. Those rules are part of what helped turn the war around and decrease violence.

        Afghanistan is a different beast than Iraq, though.

        1. Yea, we tried it without the ROE’s in the first few years, and it didn’t go over so well. Those rules are part of what helped turn the war around and decrease violence.

          Citation? Pretty sure US forces were up to their necks in combat restrictions from the get go of Iraq. The rules sure as hell didn’t turn it around; the Sahwa and actual counterinsurgency tactics did.

        2. We always had ROEs. It wasn’t individual soldiers’ behavior that was the issue, generally. It was massive cordon and searches of entire towns or deciding to call in artillery fire on enemy positions, those were decisions being made by field-grade officers. Those are the rules that were changed, soldiers have always been allowed to shoot the enemy.

          1. Seems not.

            Iraqis throw Molotov cocktails (i.e., gasoline-filled bottles) at your vehicle ? but you are prohibited from responding with force. Iraqis, to quote the study, “drop large chunks of concrete blocks from second story buildings or overpasses” as you drive by ? but you are not allowed to respond. “Every group of Soldiers and Marines interviewed,” the Pentagon study summarizes, “reported that they felt the existing ROE [rules of engagement] tied their hands, preventing them from doing what needed to be done to win the war.”

            1. I’m pretty sure if you asked the average soldier in any war they’d be complaining that central command was screwing up. Clearly the troops interviewed who were driving in armored vehicles were not seriously injured by people dropping concrete blocks or throwing makeshift Molotov cocktails at them, otherwise they wouldn’t be there to complain about it. Opening fire on second story buildings or overpasses would likely have resulted in civilian casualties that would have further turned the locals against the United States (you know, the same way the drone strikes do that lots of people here oppose). While I fully support your right to defend yourself from threats, your response needs to match the level of the threat. I’m curious as to what response those polled had planned, other than opening up with overwhelming firepower.

      2. Like I said above, those ROEs need to be abolished.

        Yeah the government should be allowed to shoot whoever the fuck they want. Great insights as usual cyto.

    2. ^This. Also, the understanding has typically been that police are allowed greater freedoms and special authority because they’re trained to do things like assess threats based on personal knowledge of the community and so forth. If a cop isn’t expected to assume increased risk compared to a non-cop then why is there a distinction?

      1. ^This in response to Brochetta. Cyto snuck one in ahead of me.

      2. Police are their own civilization within civilization. Unions are expert at this.

    3. “A soldier in a combat zone according to our ROE has to wait to be fired upon.”

      During our ROE brief in Iraq in 2010, JAG specifically said this was not true. Basically, you don’t sign away your right to self-defense (you can check DD Form 4/1 if you want), and the Constitution still trumps UCMJ.

      1. Thank God.

      2. I have ROE cards telling me I need positive identification to fire. I was a little over the top saying they need to be fired upon, but simply seeing someone with a gun or saying they are pulling it out would have left you in a hot mess with the chain of command.

        1. PID, yes.

          Guy burying something in the road was always excused….part of “hostile intent”.

          I was more restricted in Afghanistan in 2004-2005 than Iraq 2007-2008.

  13. Good article on Vietnam transitioning to an open society.

    I especially liked this part:

    “How much has Vietnam changed during your lifetime?” I asked Jason.

    “It’s growing very fast,” he said, “especially Saigon. The south is growing faster than the north.”

    Saigon (Ho Chi Minh City), Vietnam

    “Why is that?” I said.

    “Because the capital is in the north,” he said. “Everything is more restricted here and controlled by the government, but the south is more open. The government let the south open up so the economy could grow, and the money flows from the south to the north. That’s how it works.”

    In which a Vietnamese tour guide (his name is actually Huy, he just goes by Jason to tourists) has a better grasp of economics than ‘educated’ American progressives.

    1. Most progressives do not support communism.

      1. Which has nothing whatsoever to do with what I wrote, especially given that Vietnam’s economy is no longer Communist.

        You could bother responding to the point rather than something I didn’t say.

      2. Vietnam dropped its central planning model in the late 80s.

      3. John Richard Goldberg|11.23.14 @ 8:12PM|#
        “Most progressives do not support communism.”

        I’m pretty sure the number is under 50% by now, which is damning with faint praise.

      4. Nope, they only support all the communist ideas, but not communism.

      5. No, they support a precursor of fascism, namely progressivism. One of the main difference between progressivism and socialism is that progressives believe in private ownership combined with regulation

    2. Interesting. He mentions Tunisia. They just had a presidential election.

  14. I’m not necessarily willing to crucify the cop over this without knowing more, although it doesn’t look good. If the caller thought the gun was a toy, he/she shouldn’t have called 911. The 911 dispatcher can’t give information to a responder on the basis of the opinion of the caller, and even if he/she did, the responder would rightly toss most of it out the window and focus on the facts. “Probably a toy, but maybe a .45” isn’t good enough.

    That said, I had a watergun that looked like an M-16 (it didn’t really, but still) when I was a kid in the 80s. My dad was a cop. He bought it for me. I also had a BB gun. I roamed the neighborhood with both, taking the BB gun across the street to shoot cans in the woods and engaging in running battles with other kids with the water gun in the summer. Maybe the assumption in my neighborhood in those days was just that kids wouldn’t be running around carrying firearms in broad daylight. Nobody got shot and there weren’t any gang problems.

    1. You just shit an entire keyboard and said nothing.

      1. It’s a generational difference, Agile. I grew up before tweets, and I type like I talk.

    2. I’m 60 YO. Most of our toy guns were realistic, as that was a selling point for toys in general in those days. Anatomically complete dolls! The washing machine really works! Authentic costumes! Can’t tell it from Mommy’s or Daddy’s!

      And the TV shows were notoriously violent. And there was a military draft.

      Yet one didn’t know of stories like this. What changed?

      And granted that this was an event that shouldn’t’ve happened, what if a child had a real gun in public? Yes, something s/he shouldn’t have, but is it cause to be commanded by police like that & then get killed? Presumably children 50-60 yrs. ago occasionally obtained guns negligently & fooled around with them too, but one didn’t hear of them getting shot dead by police.

      1. Yet one didn’t know of stories like this. What changed?

        I’d guess it was the introduction in para-military tactics and weapons by the police brought about by the War on Crack in the 80’s and early 90’s

        1. This. HM nailed it.

        2. It’s a curious parallel to the general public’s view of violent crime in general. I grew up in the 70’s and 80’s, and me and my friends roamed free, without a care in the world. Nowadays things are much safer in general but parents are too paranoid to let their kids play outside without supervision.

          Cops are also safer now than ever before, but somehow feel much more fearful than ever before. Someone has repeatedly pointed out that this is largely due to training, which drills into police an “us vs. them” mentality and a grossly inflated threat from the general public.

        3. Back in the day, we also didn’t have 12 year olds going to school and shooting the place up. Like these charming fucks. One of whom is walking around among us today, as far as I know.

      2. You didn’t hear about it, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t happening. The homicide rate, for example, is lower now than it was in the 60s. On the other hand, the crime rate among African Americans was also lower.

    3. The 911 dispatcher can’t give information to a responder on the basis of the opinion of the caller

      How does the dispatcher relay information to the officer, then? “It’s a gun” is an opinion as well unless shots have been fired. “It looks like a gun” leaves options open.

  15. “The Cleveland Police Patrolmen’s Association maintains that the dispatcher did not relay the information that Rice’s gun was probably fake. That’s obviously a very important detail, if true.”

    No, it’s not and it may well have been ignored for that reason. A random observer saying ‘it might be fake’ is worthless data.
    I’d have to know more to take a firm position, but what’s been reported here says it’s a real sad circumstance and nothing more.

    1. No, it’s not and it may well have been ignored for that reason. A random observer saying ‘it might be fake’ is worthless data.

      The problem I have with this, then, is that it means the default assumption is “The gun is real” without convincing evidence to the contrary. However, I’m guessing that in reality, far more 12 year olds have fake guns than real ones.

  16. What do you guys think about sending out an unarmed drone with recording capability (I’m assuming the military uses reconnaissance drone of some kind) to check out situations like this, especially if the tipster believes the gun is probably fake?

    The drone would announce every to leave the area and feed the kid instructions, while a cop nearby is barricaded inside an armored car monitoring situation. If the place is deserted, then the worst scenario is that the kid shoots the drone down.

    1. I think that would be a terrible waste of taxpayers’ money. A better solution is this, but replace the phrase “pound cake” with “realistic-looking Airsoft replica

      1. Well if you had a drone the cop wouldn’t need a partner so on net balance I think you’d save money and might end up with an alive kid.

      2. “realistic-looking Airsoft replica”

        HM,
        I’ve shot a 1911 a long time ago and don’t own anything like one now.
        If someone pull that on me, I’d have no way of knowing it wasn’t real.

        1. What I meant is that the kid’s parents should have taken the time to tell him that running around Cleveland with a toy that looks a lot like a real gun wasn’t a good idea.

          1. Got it.
            Wasn’t sure, but 100% agree.

          2. And the parent’s should have taught the kid how to act around police.

            “Look Johnny. It’s time to learn what to do around the police. First of all, they are itching for an excuse to hurt or kill you. So do what they say. But nothing more. Second, they’re all liars. So keep your mouth shut. You can tell them your name, who we (your parents) are, where you live, and where you go to school. But nothing more. If the say it will help you, remember that they are liars. Their job is to hurt people and lie to people. Remember this my son, and you may survive an encounter with them.”

            1. Yes. This is what smart parents and black patents tell their sons when they turn 11, and we pray they listen. My kids were told this when they turned 6. It is what I was told when I turned 13.

              1. *patents, not patents.

                1. Damn you auto correct! Parents!

              2. At some point I will have to have that talk with my daughter. She just turned five. It’s going to be a touchy subject since her brother’s dad is a cop. The stepson is thirteen, lives with the asshole during the week, and worships his father like most teen boys do. The stepkid knows my opinion of cops, and I think he’s expressed it to his dad since he’s told me that his dad isn’t one of “those” kind of cops. But then in the next breath he’ll tell how he gets the shit kicked out of him the second he pisses the guy off. Maybe by the time I need to have that talk with the daughter, the boy will be wise enough to hear it too. Either way, I’m not looking forward to it.

                1. Bro what channel is this on again?

            2. And, oh yeah, no fake guns in public.

      3. There will be other situations the police may confuse an harmless object with a gun.

        I agree that drones would be waste of money, but the cops get surplus military equipment anyways, and drones are supposed to be crazy accurate if no human errors are involved.

        Americans (unlike many Asians) doesn’t seem shy about calling law enforcement on strangers, for whatever reason. That’s a good thing for the most part. Not in cases like this.

  17. Everybody knows what to do after it is over. However the officer only has moments to react Whether he was told that it is probably fake is irrelevant. Even if the officer had been told this the child pulled what appeared to be a gun out of his waistband. It takes only moments for a shooter to fire and kill… This was probably justified use of self-defense.

    1. No shot fired. No injuries. No one appears scared except the bitch who called 911 (I’m assuming that a man wouldn’t call the cops because he saw boys playing boy games).

      Here’s the sad truth of the matter. Cops are trained to treat anyone who fails to immediately obey them as a threat. If the person appears to be armed and fails to obey then they are considered to be a deadly threat.

      And since know they will face no face consequences for their actions, they have no incentive to use common sense.

      That’s why there is no good reason to call the cops other than for them to fill out a report you need for an insurance claim (you know the cops won’t do shit to investigate a burglary, but they may fill out a report if you ask really nice) or if you have a dead body that you can explain.

      Other than that, all the cops can do is make a situation worse.

    2. This is why you give yourself as much time as possible to react to a life or death situation as you can. If you get a call about a kid in the park with a gun, you get there and observe and assess before you force a confrontation. You buy some time before you have to make a call. All of the judgement about this avoidable tragedy will start after the officer confronts the victim, none of it will analyze the crucial minutes before the officer and victim interact for the first time, which will miss the main point. The know-how to gather intelligence and make smart tactical decisions is what separates the professionals from the amateurs.

      1. They don’t even check the address before they toss in a grenade and then barge in with their fingers on the triggers of fully automatic weapons.

        Why the heck would they bother to access a kid in the park?

        Just march on over, issue some commands, and let the bullets fly if not immediately obeyed.

        And nothing else happens.

        1. *assess*

      2. Thnak you, professor. I assume that you were there?

        1. Wherever there is injustice, you will find us.

          Wherever there is suffering, we’ll be there.

          Wherever liberty is threatened, you will find… The Three Amigos!

    3. The question of real or fake is indeed irrelevant. What really matters is if the suspect is black or white. Watch what happens when a white guy with a REAL gun threatens revolution!

      http://aattp.org/mi-open-carri…..ion-video/

  18. BTW, if someone wants to take one for the team, “60 Minutes” is ranting about “Our Crumbling Infrastructure” with (I’m sure) lies about creating jobs, increased taxes and ‘shovel ready’ projects.
    Sorry, I’ve got something else to do. Like, arrange the closets.

  19. The police said it was an accident.

    They deserve the Benefit of the Doubt or at least, the doubt of the benefits.

    Anyhow, this is getting boring but this is what will happen:

    1. The President of the Policemen’s Union will come out and say the shooting was justified.

    2. The Cop that did the shooting will be on Paid Vacation for months.

    3. A Panel of Cops (Internal Affairs or whatever) will rule that the Cop did nothing wrong.

    4. If the event that there is a Public Outcry, the District Attorney will Indict on 1st Degree Murder or something like that in which True Bill or Conviction would be unobtainable.

    5. To hedge their bet, the Cop will waive his right to a trial by Jury so that another Copy (The Judge) will find him not guilty.

    6. The Boy’s Family will sue and get Millions courtesy of the Tax Payer.

    7. Law enforcement is the ONLY PLACE on the PLANET in which an employer (the police department) can be sued for Millions over the act of an employee (The cop shooter) and that said employee not only doesn’t lose his job, he doesn’t lose upward mobility. As a result, the Cop will move up the Ranks.

    1. 7. Law enforcement is the ONLY PLACE on the PLANET in which an employer (the police department) can be sued for Millions over the act of an employee (The cop shooter) and that said employee not only doesn’t lose his job, he doesn’t lose upward mobility. As a result, the Cop will move up the Ranks.

      Actually, this is true of virtually all unionized government positions. It’s a flaw of statism generally, not policing in particular.

      1. “Actually, this is true of virtually all unionized government positions. It’s a flaw of statism generally, not policing in particular.”

        Doesn’t even have to be unionized.
        Imagine the howl that would have ENGULFED the remaining newspapers and TV broadcast news if some for-profit med insurance company admitted using lies to pitch their product!
        What happens here? Obo says he’s not sure he knew the guy. And that hag Pelosi is still employed.

      2. Well, yeah. What incentive is there to get rid of the person? They can lock their customers in a cage if they fail to pay for their “services.” Private businesses do not have that luxury.

        1. Exactly the point.
          I screw a customer, they go to my competition. Who competes with O-care?
          (I mean for med insurance, not dishonesty)

    2. Law enforcement is the greatest crutch the elite holds over the tools beneath it.

    3. You forgot his pension.

  20. OT: Odell Beckham Jr. made the best catch I’ve ever seen. Maybe Probably the best catch of all time.

    1. Saw that. Was incredible.

  21. 2 dozen Gruber lies in 2 minutes:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhavicDc0Ts

    GODDAMN YOU GRUBER YOU LYING SACK OF SHIT!

    “Anything that takes 2 sentences to explain in America today will be shouted down with a 1 sentence lie.”

    1. “Anything that takes 2 sentences to explain in America today will be shouted down with a 1 sentence lie.”

      -Jonathan Gruber

      1. “Anything that takes 2 sentences to explain in America today will be shouted down with a 1 sentence lie.”

        -Jonathan Gruber

        And Gruber celebrates that fact, because he knows his side is much better at and much more willing to lie.

      1. “Healthcare.gov works really well now.”

        -Obama

        1. “Healthcare.gov works really well now.”
          -Obama

          “Except for the parts that don’t . But don’t worry, I’ll change the law later. Maybe!”
          -Obo

      2. oh god… derpeto is getting craz… and it’s all fuckin’ like satan’s precum…

    2. I am amused that Gruber has since lost two of his state consulting contracts. I look forward to him being hauled before a Congressional committee in 2015.

    3. I thought the problem with Gruber was that he told the truth?

  22. The Black Community rallied around Trayvon Martin. Then they rallied around Michael Brown.

    Do you think they’ll rally around this kid? I doubt it very much. Hope I’m wrong.

    1. Blacks are social centrifuges… they have enough shit to deal with on their own turf… to be fair. These fucking bitches have been dealing with unionized policing for decade upon decade yet the abject idiots haven’t figured out that voting for Libertarians will seriously ease their collective pain… I say ‘abject idiots’ because I’ve spent years debating blacks and they know nothing beyond government power or street voodoo- ALL of which does NOTHING for liberty as a black.

      1. What’s street voodoo?

        1. Dr. Dre, sire, can supply said vectors.

      2. Vote Libertarian?? What a wacky idea. Who would pay for raising their children, if not the government?

  23. Anyone not retarded would assume its fake going in. Even if it was real, that is not justification to kill. Nobody had been harmed, nobody felt threatened but the 911 calling idiot. The proper response would be for the 911 operator to tell the person calling that they are an emergency line and this is not an emergency.

    There’s no justification for someone being so fucking stupid they shot a kid with a toy gun. Millions of kids play with toy guns, if this is a good shoot then they’re all targets. None of those of those kids ever shoots someone.

    1. If he pointed it at the cop he had it coming.

      1. The cop should at all points. yay.

        1. Should shoot, spear, stab, punch…at all points…. This whole interwebs things failed me this now.

      2. I agree. Then again, I doubt that is the case.

        The cop issued a command, and opened fire when the command was not immediately obeyed.

        THE END

        1. No child left behind obeys commands… none. zilch…

          I say this cop serve life in prison. Until dead.

        2. Of course we’d be able to judge his actions immediately if he had a body camera that was transmitting live. I’m guessing the chances he had one are low. Very low.

          1. “Sir, the body camera contradicts the officer’s statements.”

            “Lose it!”

    2. The cops weren’t told about the 911 call. And your comment “anyone not retarded . . . ” is simply too “retarded” to respond to. How many years have you served in law enforcement?

      1. Why did they show up if no call?

        Is say at this point I could pluck a random idiot off the street and do a better job than the police.

    3. In 1961 we played soldier with real guns (absent firing pins and ammo) throughout my upper middle class suburban neighborhood. No one ran in circles screaming and shouting. The police never came by to harass us. We had a good time, graduated to real guns in our cars in high school, and never shot (or stabbed) anyone. WE were violence-proofed so it fixed not matter what inanimate objects we possessed. The military had to teach me to be violent, very violent, but controlled.

    4. Police shoot black kids playing with toy guns, watch what happens to a white man threatening revolution with a REAL gun!

      http://aattp.org/mi-open-carri…..ion-video/

    1. The lord government lives on lies. Lies and morality are the volcanic ash of greater political power in Washingfuck.

      1. Force and fraud are like peanut butter and chocolate.

        1. I think you should cover your body in chocolate and then visit my hovel…

          1. Yeah right. Like I want to make myself look like a black person and then walk around in your neighborhood. I don’t want to get shot!

            1. Chocolate man… I live in the rural wood. And you’d be licked clean rather sweetly…

              1. In a rural wood? So I’m at risk of being attacked by wild animals looking to lick off the chocolate and then eat my flesh? No fucking way!

    2. I submit that the problem is that he told the truth in the most open way possible.

      Since they’re not celebrities/politicians, academic economists aren’t learned in the art of lying through their teeth. All Gruber did was to admit that everyone but the ACA supporters were right, that the law was a huge con intended to force the middle class–who of course don’t care about the poor, unlike wonderful people like Gruber–to pay for less expensive insurance for the poor.

      I think we all agree with Gruber that the American people are dumb when it comes to politics or at least rationally irrational. But whereas Gruber sees this as an opportunity for Top Men to exploit democratic ignorance for their technocratic purposes, we see it as a sign that an unconstrained government elected by idiots should be neutered.

      1. And what’s going to happen with this is that many economists who are in the same position as Gruber will learn the lesson of his public flogging and begin equivocating. When every speech you give at a conference becomes a matter of permanent, public record, you can’t afford the sort of demolition that Gruber’s experiencing now.

        1. If that beating makes Economists more honest and forthcoming, it is worth it. If it just makes them better liars they will suffer the consequences of losing influence over society.

          I suspect the Society of Economists will, each and every one of our betters, choose to add a course in lying to the requirements for a PhD.

    3. Gruber – The current “Michael Brown” of the Libertarian cult. Pile on everyone!

      Deceit, faking and lying are parts of human nature which help reproductive success and survival. Let’s not act as if the honest peace lover is what created the modern world.

      1. Class, this is a defense mechanism called “rationalization”.

      2. Yes, we already know you’re an amoral sociopath, craiginass. It’s not necessary to remind us.

      3. I see your only argument here is to confuse and distract. And then to act as though abjectly lying about something in a representative government is okay as long as you have good intentions.

        From reading your posts here, I’m pretty sure that several years ago you were in an absolute lather about George Bush “lying” about weapons of mass destruction in order to get approval for military action. Now someone that was a prime mover behind a policy that you like incontrovertibly admits to lying to get approval for it, and it’s all good.

        The fact is that you represent the worst of the modern left: willing to tolerate reprehensible behavior as long as it’s coming from people with whom you agree. The fact that the modern right does the same is not a point in your favor, it’s rather damning in my view. You’re just the mirror image of the rednecks and idiots you seem to despise.

        And before I forget, the honest peace lover did create the modern world. It is impossible to have a functional society made up of pathological liars and violence. Your entire life works because the people with whom you interact are largely trustworthy and don’t beat your ass and take your lunch money. The fact is that the societies that really don’t work, like Somalia and Afghanistan, are made up of liars and those for whom violence is a workable option.

      4. Jey, ASSHOLE, please tell us how Bush was justified in starting a war!

        “Deceit, faking and lying are parts of human nature which help reproductive success and survival. Let’s not act as if the honest peace lover is what created the modern world.”

        Yes, ASSHOLE, you! Here you are excusing deceit and I presume you are therefore comfortable with Bush’s efforts, right, ASSHOLE?

  24. That’s 2 missing slammer hat tips in a row, reason.

    1. I got a hat tip earlier this week! Neener neener neeee ner!

  25. We have a political class that is totally above the law. We have men in costumes who use violence without consequence. And we have everyone else.

    Can someone explain to me how we’re not living in a feudal system?

    1. Uh, we’re not tied to the land.

      Yet.

      1. You, sire, have stated great things here… I applaud thou.

      2. Just wait until President Affirmative Action is done with immigration “law”, then we’ll be tied to the land.

    2. We can leave the country and own weapons. Don’t be silly.

    3. “Can someone explain to me how we’re not living in a feudal system?”

      Close – but as long as the Koch’s and the government are slightly separated (although they are getting way too cozy for my tastes) – we may not get fully there.

      1. Leaving aside the abject idiocy of appealing to a couple of bogeymen and hobgoblins to explain the failures of the policies you support, you don’t make words plural by adding an apostrophe. Seriously, if you’re going to pontificate as if you’re some sort of intellectual, learn the basic rules of the language we’re all using.

      2. craiginmass|11.23.14 @ 10:00PM|#
        “Close – but as long as the Koch’s and the government are slightly separated (although they are getting way too cozy for my tastes) – we may not get fully there.”

        Hey, ASSHOLE! See here:
        1 ActBlue $124,142,516 99% 0%
        2 National Education Assn $73,795,236 47% 3%
        3 American Fedn of State, County & Municipal Employees
        https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

        No, I’m not going to bother with the format, I’ll just presume and ASSHOLE like you can’t figure it out and will ask for assistance, right ASSHOLE?
        Hint, ASSHOLE, the Koch Bros ™ ain’t anywhere close to the slimy lefties you love.

      3. Dude, the Kochtopus is sooooo last summer.

      4. Are the Koch brother more powerful and influential than Wall Street, unions, banks, and Hollywood, which all lean left and gave WAY more money to the Dems than the GOP? Even big oil throw gobs of money at the democrats.

        No political party benefits more from big business than the Democrats. The notion that big business is some steely ally of the GOP is total nonsense.

  26. sarcasmic is a goddamn gem in this community! I think this is a community.

    1. +1 cubic zirconia

  27. I must exit into the ether my sweet hardcorites of knowledge. I love this place. I love the amazing chracaters… I love the passion. Le’ verve… the saving of humanity that will transcend time…

    when spaceships and rockets fly freely in teh universe… Reasonoids will be the pilots.

    1. When you’re out in space..umm…have you seen any of them fish titties?

    2. “when spaceships and rockets fly freely in teh universe… Reasonoids will be the pilots”

      Hopefully they will all volunteer for the one-way to Mars and not procreate.

      We promise to send plenty of massage oil along and stream pornhub to you guys up there.

      1. Yeah, they should progs like you instead. They’ll turn the Red Planet into a paradise.

        Just like Detroit.

        http://platedlizard.blogspot.c…..adise.html

      2. and not procreate.

        Too late, I already have a child and what I’m fighting for is to protect her from being exploited by bigoted amoral sociopaths like you.

      3. craiginmass|11.23.14 @ 10:01PM|#
        “when spaceships and rockets fly freely in teh universe… Reasonoids will be the pilots”

        Hey, ASSHOLE, I see you’ve yet to respond to your implied lies re the Koch Bros(tm).
        Is that because you’re simply an ignoramus? Because you haven’t figured out how to respond to being caught on bullshit?
        Or, perhaps, just because you’re an ASSHOLE?

  28. A while back, Radley Balko had a column about numerous incidents of cops killing unarmed people who were reaching for their waistbands – never mind that it makes zero sense for an unarmed person to do that. Might it happen once? Sure. But when you have a whole bunch of those cases, you *know* that in a lot of them, the person never reached for anything at all. The “waistband” thing is just the go-to excuse that automatically exonerates the cop, and cops know it.

    In this particular incident, the kid obviously did have a (toy) gun. However, I find it a little peculiar that a kid playing with a toy gun would have it stashed in his waistband, and even more peculiar that he’d reach for the toy gun when confronted by a cop. I’m not saying it couldn’t happen, but it sounds pretty unlikely to me.

    I won’t be the least bit surprised if someone comes up with security camera footage that shows there wasn’t any waistband-reaching going on.

    1. Eh. A well trained shooter can draw and shoot someone holding a gun on him.

      Of course, almost no one is that well trained. But it’s possible.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA-xIssgT-o

    2. As our cop-fellator above intimated, anything which the officer reasonably perceives to be a weapon is justification for death. There are no surrounding circumstances which come into play in deciding whether to shoot. Just the animal “I think that ? uh weapon!” reaction and he can unload his magazine into your face.

  29. Police maintain that the fake weapon was missing its identifying orange tip, however.

    Are we to believe that having an orange tip would have made a difference? That the officer actually waited long enough to positively identify that the toy was not marked before he shot?

    Or, is it more likely that the officer saw the boy draw what he *already* assumed was a weapon and fired right away – orange tip irrelevant.

  30. It’s just like the old bumper sticker says, “When (toy) guns are outlawed, Only outlaws will have (toy) guns.” In most big cities you’re assumed to be a criminal if you have a gun, and that’s the mindset of the police in those cities. In this particular instance, the child had not shot anyone yet, had he? Did the policeman see any dead bodies lying on the ground? Did the policeman see any wounded, bloodied victims staggering away from the scene? No, he didn’t see any indication anything was wrong, other than that the kid had a “gun.” Was there any cover he could use for protection as he approached the child? Did he have a stun gun? This is simply another instance where no police involvement would have been far better than what happened.

  31. Why couldn’t the pig just move quickly to one side, pull out his gun and shout for the kid to get down on the ground. It’s hard to hit a moving target so the porker would be safe enough.

  32. It is hard to shoot a hand gun accurately even at close ranges. Did the cop think the kid was Bob Munden?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tied-t1fFsk

    If he was really worried, just stand about 100 ft away with a rifle and yell at the kid to drop it. The odds of the cop getting shot would have been near nil.

    1. Very good point.

      For those among us who have had people shooting at you, and I am sure there are a few here, the concept of a guy leaning out a car and calmly firing a 9mm and hitting a driver in another car 60 yards away is hilarious.

      If you watch the video of the officer who shot the guy for a seatbelt violation in a gas station parking lot, he is 5 feet away and fires like 5 times and hit the guy once in the leg. Fear takes over.

      If you see someone in a deadly confrontation completely calm, or expressing inappropriate emotions of laughter, they are a Psychopath. Pretty common profile in policing and the military. Those fields are attractive to Narcissists, and real power can convert that personality to Psychopathy if circumstances permit.

  33. “If he was really worried, just stand about 100 ft away with a rifle and yell at the kid to drop it. The odds of the cop getting shot would have been near nil.”

    Yeah, presuming that was an alternative.
    I am NOT excusing the cop; I’m asking all of you saying ‘well, he could have done X’ to provide the evidence to back your claims.

    1. Why could he not have stood 100 feet away?

      That’s the park I believe. Length is 381 feet according to Google Maps. Cop could have approached from any side of the park and approached with caution.

      1. Seems I can’t post the link. Google maps the park if you’re interested.

    2. Never happen. Monday morning quarterback. Most dangerous job they’ve ever held is what, I wonder? But I’m sure they do it perfectly under pressure.

      1. Thought you were out of here?

      2. Most dangerous job they’ve ever held is what, I wonder? But I’m sure they do it perfectly under pressure.

        True. Every last man, woman, and child alive would have shot that kid, no questions asked.

        Jesus fucking Christ, you cop-slurping asshole. If officer safety matters so goddamn much, don’t become a cop. But if more BRAVE, TOUGH MEN thought like you’d, who’d protect us from 12-year olds playing with airsoft guns?

        Society breaks down ever further in no small part because assholes with huge power/authority boners, assholes like yourself, turn the people you swore to protect into victims on a daily basis.

        I guess shooting dogs has become less satisfying these days.

        1. you have it wrong; when the case involves a black kid playing with a fake gun police are concerned for their safety. But when it involves a white man threatening revolution with a REAL gun then they feel it is their duty to put themselves at risk for the good of the public!

          http://aattp.org/mi-open-carri…..ion-video/

      3. Never happen. Monday morning quarterback. Most dangerous job they’ve ever held is what, I wonder? But I’m sure they do it perfectly under pressure.

        You might want to be careful with that. There are a LOT of jobs way more dangerous than being a cop.

        Being near a cop, for instance.

        1. The number one cause of injury in my line of work is assault. I’m allowed to carry a flashlight and a knife, and am specifically prohibited from carrying a firearm even if permitted to do so in my off-duty life, and my standards for self-defense are the same in our out of uniform. When I enter a scene it’s to help, even when the patient is dangerous or violent, and then I climb into a small box with that person to take a trip to the hospital. I think my job is pretty dangerous and I have yet to shoot and kill anyone.

        2. Best comment yet..and true.

  34. Protect and serve. Question is, who are they serving us to?

    1. HAHA! That is kind of like Obama’s pledge for transparency. We got the transparency, unfortunately it’s a one-way mirror and the citizens can’t see their government.

  35. Cleveland Cop Shoots 12-Year-Old Boy Dead for Playing with Toy Gun?

    I really don’t know where you’re going with this incredibly badly written cop-hating cr^p. I’m sure you’ll gain some loonies, but you are losing thinking people, and fast. There are a lot of bad cops. And a lot of good ones. We need to deal with the former without crucifying the latter.

    The kid was shot because he had what looked liked a gun. NOT for playing with a toy gun. Whether the cop was negligent will be determined, I’m sure. But you have simply clouded the discussion with your ridiculous headline.

    I’m out of here. Drop me a line if you ever get decent editors back.

    1. Don’t let the door hit ya on the way out.

    2. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

      1. That will teach me to refresh before posting.

    3. The kid was shot because he had what looked liked a gun

      Exactly. We have so reduced the criteria for being shot to be “he had what looked like a gun”.

      Any extraneous circumstances that could have been weighed in the balance? Shots fired from this thing that looked like a gun? Terrified people running from the park? Age and demeanor of the victim? Distance between cop and victim? Any objects which cop could place between himself and victim before a deadly confrontation was force? Nay nay! It looked like a weapon. Good shoot.

      I had no idea that my concealed carry permit was an automatic death sentence. Hey, that IS a real weapon under your shirt. *BLAM*BLAM*BLAM*BLAM*

      1. I mean, if you can be suspended for holding a Pop-Tart shaped like Oklahoma, why not get shot to death for having a BB gun?

    4. “I’m out of here. Drop me a line if you ever get decent editors back.”

      Decent editors = Cop-suckers whom empathize with what that poor scared cop must be going through.

  36. Peace Officers died with the 20th century. Today’s cops are “warroriers” fighting a multi-facet (drugs, terrorists, gangs, and whatever) WAR against the entire population. Each and every one of US is imagined as a deadly threat to THEM. Cops fear us all, every minute of every shift. That institutionalized fear reduces their effectiveness and make them a threat to us all. Scared little boys in Blue polyester are dangerous.

    1. Nothing like a few over-generalizations to aid meaningful discussion.

  37. Nothing to worry about, officer. It’s just Cleveland.

    “The shooting comes amid a 24-hour span where seven people were slain by gunfire, including a 17-year-old girl and a newborn child. A 10-year-old girl was also shot during that span.”

  38. This is not the officer’s fault. This sort of thing happens far too often to be just one bad judgement. This is the fault of the command structure of the police in the US. They are clearly not training their people correctly to protect others (or to protect themselves properly for that matter.)

    When reading these stories you routinely see the police rapidly close distance on a subject – whether wielding a suspected gun or another weapon like a knife. If you are worried about the danger of the weapon they hold, why are you getting yourself in close range – something that is particularly infuriating in shootings involving knives or other weapons. The correct answer would be to maintain a safe distance or retreat to cover while assessing the situation.

    If this officer had retreated and issued additional commands from cover instead of instantly firing his weapon at the first perceived threat, nobody would have been hurt. We saw this in the aftermath of the Brown shooting in Missouri when a mentally ill man with a knife was killed by police. A group of officers rushed up to the suspect and surrounded him at close range, shouting commands. When he moved toward one of them they opened fire and killed him. Had they maintained an appropriate distance nobody would have been shot.

    1. We see the same thing with violent entries on search warrants. Instead of proceeding with caution and taking cover at a perceived threat the police move quickly in order to have the advantage of surprise and disorientation. This pretty much guarantees that a percentage of people will be shot as they respond to disorienting actions with motions that could be reported as “furtive”.

      Our police leadership needs to remember that it is often good tactics to retreat. Not every potential threat is best handled by aggressive confrontation with a firearm.

      But this is not the current state of affairs. Our police are trained to always advance, always put “officer safety” first and fire preemptively.

    2. This is really key here. Key. If I start a couple of dozen feet from the subject, and I see what looks to be a weapon, I’m not going to close the distance with said subject.

    3. Also whoever told cops that shouting and cursing gave them “command presence” needs to be kicked in the balls. As everyone who went to public school knows, the teacher that had to shout and curse absolutely did not have control of the class and everyone knew it. The teachers that did never needed to raise their voices and could shut down a class clown or troublemaker with a look.

    4. Yes it is the cops fault.

      You can’t judge fault from procedure or what the cop perceived. You can only judge it from objective reality, that is, whatever turns out to be true or false.

      Remove immunity and let all cop actions be speculative, treating them no different than ordinary citizens and these incidents will stop.

      1. That is one path to getting a change. It would set up an interesting conflict.

        What do we hear whenever there is one of these incidents? “Procedures were followed.” Pretty much every time – even if it is perfunctory and delivered before the incident report is even prepared. So if training continues unaltered and the line officers begin facing the possibility of charges for following their training and official procedures… well, I wonder if the courts wouldn’t just put qualified immunity right back in place out of convenience. Certainly the prosecutors would be likely to follow the old practice and not bring charges if there is a conflict between standard self defence and police procedures.

        Even with that big of a stick in hand, getting ourselves out of this mess is going to be difficult.

    5. It’s the CULTURE, not the training. You can’t train common sense, which is all this event required.

      The officer killed the boy…if it was a civilian saying he shot the boy in self defense it would not fly…same for the officer.

  39. that is not too old for that kind of toys

  40. 12 y/o kid in civilian attire playing on a playground with a toy gun.

    Paid cop with bulletproof vest playing defender of the people with a real gun.

    Cop shoots and kills kid because he feared for his life.

    1. And then we have angry man with a REAL gun. Cop walks up to him because it’s his duty to risk his life for the good of the public.

      http://aattp.org/mi-open-carri…..ion-video/

      Rather puzzling indeed, until you remember that the kid was BLACK while the man was WHITE!

      Most people these days are not racist but there is an unconscious suspicion of black people which remains. Even black cops will stop the first black person they see when responding to a burglary alarm!

      http://www.theroot.com/article…..leave.html

      These black cops are probably not secret self hating racists, but they are probably suffering from the same unconscious biases that many in America do.

  41. I skipped half the comments because I already know what is being said, so I apologize if someone has already mentioned this…

    I see both sides of the argument: orange tip was missing and a firearm is dangerous regardless of the age of the shooter, and conversely, this was a kid.

    And I can’t believe I’m saying this…in defense of the cop…maybe this was a prime stun gun opportunity? “Oh shit, there’s possible risk here. But that also could be fake.” I don’t know how far away the cop was though…

    Just spitballing ideas.

    1. You can’t see the orange tip of a “gun” that’s tucked in a waistband.

  42. Everyone seems quick to accept that the orange tip was actually missing, before the shooting, and not just disappeared afterward. I haven’t seen any witness statements either way.

    1. The “gun” was tucked in the kid’s waistband. What difference does it make if it had an orange tip? The tip was not visible anyway.

      Yeah, we shouldn’t accept the word of the police without corroboration. But when they’re giving excuses that don’t even make sense, that lowers their credibility even more.

  43. the cop should have the decency to resign and never do police work again. but he won’t because fuck that kid that’s why.

  44. better that 100 innocent kids die than one cop be held accountable for disastrous judgement.

  45. my best friend’s aunt makes $60 hourly on the computer . She has been fired for nine months but last month her check was $17081 just working on the computer for a few hours. go to website….

    ?????? http://www.payinsider.com

  46. I haven’t had time to read this thread so I apologize if somebody already brought this up. I think another factor that will have to be looked at is how the officers approached the kid. If they jumped at him with guns drawn and belligerent shouts they vastly increased the risk that the kid would panic and do something foolish.

  47. Why aren’t you calling the gun what it really is : a replica pistol?
    Biased journalism.

  48. I cannot believe that pigs have the audacity to come on here and defend the murder of a child. I have a 9 year old son that has multiple toy guns and real ones. The first thing I taught him, obviously was never to point it at anyone, but I find it sickening that cops come on here and defend this action. What if your son was playing at a park and some dipsh1t called the cops and they came and executed your child? It’s a child! But cops are so afraid that they will shoot a kid? Obviously not in the right line of work if you are so afraid that you go running around shooting kids on playgrounds. I can only imagine what I would do if I was that kids father…

    1. The proggish nannystate caused this. Think about it. A person saw a kid with what looked like a gun in a public space, not doing anything threatening. Let’s say it was a real gun. In and of itself, that shouldn’t be a reason to call the police, but to the Prog gungrabbers, not only is it a cause for panic, but as we see from Craiginmass above, the panic over an Airsoft gun is yet another reason to ban all privately-owned firearms.

      If it was Wyoming, not Cleveland, would this be a good shoot? Of course not.

      1. Agreed. What kind of psychotic pos calls the cops on a kid playing. This is pathetic. The only facts that matter are these:

        12 year old kid
        Toy gun

        Nothing any cop loving pos says can change those facts. If you disagree you should not be a cop.

  49. My best friend’s mother-in-law makes $85 /hour on the internet . She has been out of work for 5 months but last month her pay was $16453 just working on the internet for a few hours.
    Visit this website ????? http://www.jobsfish.com

  50. We have to be very careful about the assumptions we’re making about this story. Unless I missed something, there isn’t a disinterested third party confirming details. We’ve got a cop responding to a call about a child with a pistol. The cop shot and killed the kid. Without calling the cop’s honesty or integrity into question, we don’t know whether the kid actually reached for a pistol intending to shoot the cop (although I think it’s pretty fucking unlikely) or whether the cop went into the situation expecting a gunfight and panicked when he saw the kid move a little too quickly (way, way, way more likely).

    Take the cop out of it. The cop is either too high strung for the job or a sociopathic child-killer. As a parent, in this day and age, you should be teaching your kids to treat police the same as a strange dog. Assume they’re vicious, stay away, and if you have to deal with them move slowly and calmly. “All strange dogs bite,” as they say. I mean, if a kid with a Wiimote is gonna get shot answering his front door, what’s gonna happen to a kid with an Airsoft gun in an urban area?

    I’m in no way justifying the shoot, I’m just saying that while you work for the world as it should be you’ve got to deal with the world as it is.

  51. Airsoft guns look EXTREMELY realistic, and are increasingly being used in armed robberies. It’s not like this kid was holding a plastic Roy Rogers six-shooter. No cops should be expected to “wait and see” if he’s going to be killed by the person reaching into his waistband. A 12-year-old should not be “playing” with an airsoft in a public park without an adult present, and should have been trained by his PARENTS to obey orders from a police officer regarding a weapon. Sad, but stupid and avoidable, death.

    1. Baa, Baaaa… Obey the Wolf and he may eat you last.

    2. Sorry, but as a citizen I INSIST that cops “Wait and See” before pulling out a weapon and shooting ANYONE.

      Because if they don’t 12 year old kids die. And that’s a bad thing…

    3. Let me be the first to unequivocally say fuck you you cop boot licking piece of trash. The parents are to blame for a cop shooting a twelve year old child with a toy? What planet are you from? Please return there and remove your ignorant self from the gene pool. That world will be a better place sans you. Unbelievable.

    4. Realistic – pertaining to being real but NOT real!
      That should never be the justification for killing a child with a toy. Ever.
      Moron moron moron

  52. This reminds me of something that happened when I was a young teenager.
    I was at a friends house, we were out playing with airsoft guns in the street and someone called the cops. The cop came and told us to go play in the backyard because the guns looked realistic and we were scaring the neighbors. And no one was killed.

  53. “The kid, Tamir Rice, did not threaten the police and was armed only with an airsoft gun. Police maintain that the fake weapon was missing its identifying orange tip, however.”

    Oh, it was missing the orange bit. Well THAT’S death penalty offense right there…

    “Somebody saw them with the gun and called 911; the caller specifically told the operator that it was “probably fake.””

    So WHY THE FUCK are you calling 911?

    Hell, WHY THE FUCK is a cop shooting ANYONE when there was absolutely no violence in the situation until the cop got there?

    THis is where anti-gun paranoia leads, a dead kid.

    Oh, wait, I saw a picture on another website. Apparently the kid was black. No wonder the police policy was to shoot first and give the officer in question a paid vacation after. Too many niggers running around as it is.

    1. Absolutely correct. Black mattered.

      Taking a human life is a last resort when no other option exists and there is an immanent threat of bodily injury to those in proximity. This event in no way meets the criteria.

      If you have the power, you have and accept the responsibility. A simple “hey kid, come over here” ends the problem.

      In the old days they served warrants by knocking on the door…now just a claim by an informant gets the SWAT team and an armored vehicle at three in the morning.

      History has shown us that overlooking actions by authority that usurp our rights as citizens because it does not affect us will be the most surprised when they find themselves on the list.

  54. It’s idiotic to assume a 12-year-old boy openly carrying a gun in a park has a real gun.

    I bet you anything he could’ve walked right up to him and asked him what he was doing, especially since the kid had it tucked in his waistband.

    Instead he probably did the typical Hollywood B.S. where he rolled up on the scene, jumped out of the car and yelled:

    “FREEZE! HANDS ON YOUR HEAD! DROP THE GUN!”

    Startled, confused kid made a furtive movement and then BANG BANG BANG.

  55. I read a local story some years back about two cops who were confronting some guy who’d barricaded himself in his apartment with a 12-guage pump-action shotgun. As the officers approached the guy, he cycled the action and pointed it at them. Apparently, a pump-action shotgun, when racked, makes a different sound when it’s unloaded versus when it’s loaded; a more hollow, metallic sound, I believe.

    In any case, one of the cops concluded, based on the sound alone, that the gun wasn’t loaded, at which point they bum-rushed him and took him into custody with no bloodshed. I tihnk most of us here would agree that they’d have been within their rights to shoot the guy.

    I think it’s safe to say that the days of deescalation, taking on some personal risk even on behalf of people who may be dangerous, and killing only as a last resort are well behind us.

    1. I can personally confirm that the sound is much different. There is a distinct ‘clunk’ when a shell is chambered as opposed to without.

      If true, kudos to the cops for not killing the person.

      Should not ALL stories end like this? Especially when we are talking about a 12 year old CHILD and a TOY FUCKING GUN???

    2. “taking on SOME personal risk”…speaking as one who is safely in his home not risking anything…the police do a thankless (obvious from your comments) job..give them a break unless you’ve walked in their shoes…

      1. FUCK YOU!

        If you are not willing to give your life for a 12 year child, DO NOT BECOME A FUCKING COP. Yeah, I said it. You should ALWAYS err on the side of saving a child’s life you psycho piece of shit.

        And what the fuck do you know about what the fuck I do? I’ve put my life on the line many times so ignorant fucks like you can talk shit in your mom’s basement. Why dont you try being a human fucking being instead of advocating the murder of children?

        Walked in their shoes…joke…they signed up for it…unlike me! But I STILL never murdered a child.

        1. Wearing a uniform should not be a ticket to automatic respectability, true dat.

      2. Good little badge bunny.

        Face it, the police do not have a very dangerous job. There are many more occupations, all much more productive and beneficial to society, that are more dangerous.

      3. the police do a thankless (obvious from your comments) job.

        There is no shortage of groveling bootlickers who thank them for their service at every turn. I wish it were a thankless job. I wish the position didn’t attract a certain species of shitbag to fill it’s ranks.

        1. I’ll thank cops when they go back to “Serve and Protect” instead of “harass and detain”…until then, eff them.

          And for those about to say ‘well don’t call them then when you need something’ don’t worry…I won’t and I don’t…it would take them an hour to get to where I live anyway and all they would do is be there for clean-up! I once watched a cop miss 3 times trying to dispatch a deer lying on the side of the road after being hit with an arrow. Cop was shaking so bad it was laughable. I asked him if he needed me to do it for him…but I bet he would have found a way to murder a 12 yo CHILD with a TOY!

  56. Thank God Opie lived in Mayberry. With his cap pistols and Cowboy Hat, he would not have survived 5 minutes in a Cleveland Park…Of course as he was only 8 years old he could not have gone to a Cleveland Park alone without having Andy arrested for Felony abandonment.

    Seriously, everybody better start waking up…

  57. You’ll shoot your eye out, kid.

    You’ll be a victim of state murder at the hands of a sociopath with an itchy trigger finger, kid.

  58. That is sad…my prayers to his family. I can’t imagine how painful that is to have your child dead after he just went out to play. How many of us have kids that have these toy guns….it does beg the question WHY police had to shoot even though being 12 isn’t a free pass anymore. If the child wasn’t threatening or advancing or doing anything immediately dangerous it’s unclear why he had to kill him. 12 year olds and younger have been murderers too so we have to put ourselves in the police officer’s shoes when they confront total strangers daily and have no idea who they are dealing with in that moment. It’s very easy to quarterback from the safety of your sofa. They want to go home to their children and spouses too and I am sure the officer is devastated by this outcome. Does anyone truly believe police officers WANT to kill people? If so, I think it is YOU who need help..not the police. They do a dangerous, thankless job and this was a tragedy for sure…

  59. I think the Cops buy into the notion that there’s some “gun culture” running amok in this country. Many more adults will kill someone with a gun than a preteen, but if a 15 year old goes on a shooting rampage, it gets all the media attention.

    A lot of libertarians are unequivocally against using cameras and drones in public, but those things will give the police a set of eyes to work with. If there’s one hovering around the house of a guy who just violated parole, he has nowhere to run.

    If the drone was right above the kid who got shot, the cops don’t even have to check if the gun is real. The drone would instruct the kid to get on the ground with he hands behind his head. And then the cops can approach him.

    It’ll be awful tough for the jury to prove “beyond a reasonable doubt” that the cops in this situation did NOT fear for his life. If there were no witnesses, then the cop is a free man. I would rather have a high tech drone (controlled by a third party approved by the state, not the police) recording an incident rather than some total stranger with a cell phone cam.

  60. Very unfortunate case. It is a sad state of affairs in America where a child with an airsoft gun is assumed to have a real one instead (though I wonder if the same conclusion would have been reached if the child was white). At any rate I was not there so I won’t be so stupid as to pass judgment as some other monday moron-ing quarterbacks have.

    About the only substantive thing to do is to make sure that kids toys are easily recognizable as such and/or airsoft and other BB or pellet guns are treated as airpower firearms and not “mere toys”.

    1. About the only substantive thing to do is to make sure that kids toys are easily recognizable as such and/or airsoft and other BB or pellet guns are treated as airpower firearms and not “mere toys”.

      Nevermind the the perversed incentives that come with deference from prosecutors, grand juries, and courts.

  61. What is this world coming to where our precious children can no longer innocently play outside with their friends… Police officers are supposed to protect the public yet they are clearly not doing their jobs. Killing our children, abusing authority, and causing riots is what they are successfully doing. Every time I read a story like this it makes me realize being an American is tremendously over rated! I pray for this child’s mother and father. I hope they sue the police department and get every penny that they are entitled to. Also hope this menace officer gets jail time for this thoughtless act on this baby.

  62. “Toy gun”? Soave seems to be trying to incite another Ferguson. Sorry, but the gun was a replica, not a toy – it fired pellets and apparently the “innocent” victim was terrorizing a playground, which was the reason the citizen complaint was made and why the police responded.

    1. Umm..Yeah…it was a fucking toy as in an air soft gun that shots PLASTIC BB’s, NOT PELLETS! You have no idea WTF you are talking about! It does not even shoot the copper ones!
      Terrorizing? You are a special kind of pussy if you allow yourself to be terrorized by a 12 yo kid with a TOY…yes, a TOY that shoots PLASTIC BBS!
      Please, either off yourself or learn something you ignorant FUCK…then maybe you can have a grown up discussion about the murder of a 12 YO KID by your overlords!

    2. Yeah, so now that the video is out, which part of my ass would you like to kiss first you fucking moron?

      The cops executed a 12 yo kid with a toy gun in 2 seconds. So, yeah you are completely wrong on every fucking point. Why cant the cops mistakenly shoot stupid fucks like you instead of 12 yo kids?

  63. Tempting to ring the neck of the little old lady who called the cops, but it didn’t sound like she wanted things to turn out the way they did. A whole string of thoughtless actions starting with the kid and ending with the cop. 911 barely works over where I’m at these days due to VOIP issues and what I suspect is the usual southern efficiency. Beginning to think that it’s better that way.

  64. We all know what happens when a black KID plays with a fake gun, lets now see what happens when a white MAN threatens revolution with a REAL gun!

    http://aattp.org/mi-open-carri…..ion-video/

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