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Gun Rights

Vice Writer Apparently Surprised that 'Gay' Is Not a Political Orientation

Scott Shackford | 10.23.2014 5:35 PM

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(zombieite / photo on flickr)
Well … nobody will make fun of it.
Credit: zombieite / photo on flickr

Obviously headlining a story "Meet the Gay Libertarian Gun Nuts" is designed to be deliberately inflammatory clickbait. So it goes at Vice (not a judgment, just an observation). But beyond the headline, writer Cecilia D'Anastasio is one of those folks who is amazed to discover that coming out of the closet doesn't include an application to register as a Democrat.

Starting with the tale of gay, libertarian gun rights advocate (and plaintiff) Tom Palmer, D'Anastasio discovers the world is a complicated place:

Palmer isn't the only gay pro-gun libertarian activist out there. In fact, there are thousands of LGBT individuals who are skeptical of the government and love shooting things—or are at least prepared to do so in self-defense. I wasn't aware of this subculture until I attended LibertyFest NYC—initially, I was taken aback when Marcel Fontaine, a speaker at the convention and creator of the "LGBT for Gun Rights" Facebook page told me that the "more guns, less crime" argument often referenced by opponents of gun control can apply to hate crimes, too. "Armed gays don't get bashed" is how they often put it. 

D'Anastasio is then surprised to find gay fans of Ron and Rand Paul, despite Ron's previous vote for the Defense of Marriage Act (reminder: Joe Biden voted for it, too, and it passed with veto-proof majorities). She also seems to think it's odd for gays to embrace the libertarian support for a free market that makes it legal to discriminate against them (she needs to read my primer on the philosophical consistency here).

But then she actually does her homework and notes the Libertarian Party's lengthy history of support for gays and lesbians going back to the 1970s, courageous (at the time) positions based on a coherent civil rights philosophy that the Democratic Party could only dream of claiming. She quotes several gay supporters for gun rights who state the obvious—if more gay people were armed, fewer folks would attempt to bash them. The piece ends with an attempt to get somebody to present a counterargument that gays shouldn't carry around guns, but, well, it doesn't seem to land. I trust libertarians to spot the pretty significant logical flaws:

Shelby Chestnut, a media spokesperson at the Anti-Violence Project, which targets LGBT community members, argues that guns are tools of hate crimes, not a way to prevent them. Citing the case of Cece McDonald, a transgender woman who was sent to jail after defending herself against a homophobic attack, Chestnut noted that carrying a gun can often subject LGBT people to even greater violence.

"We need to look at the systemic inequalities that are causing people to be victims of violence," she said. "The solution to that is definitely not creating violence to end violence."

Read the full piece here.

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NEXT: South Carolina Pol Resigns Over Misconduct

Scott Shackford is a policy research editor at Reason Foundation.

Gun RightsGunsLibertarianismLibertarian PartyLGBT
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  1. John C. Randolph   11 years ago

    Shelby Chestnut is a moron. Abject helplessness is not a winning survival strategy.

    -jcr

    1. perlhaqr   11 years ago

      "She was victimised by trans-bashers, and then by the state, and I support that." -Shelby Chestnut

    2. MJGreen   11 years ago

      I doubt all that much of homophobia is due to "systemic inequalities."

      You dumb fuck.

  2. Riven   11 years ago

    "(she needs to read my primer on the philosophical consistency here)."

    Please. Like she even understands either of those two words or how they might work together.

  3. Brandon   11 years ago

    (she needs to read my primer on the philosophical consitency here).

    What about spelling consistency?

    1. Scott S.   11 years ago

      BAH!

      1. Sevo   11 years ago

        Joe's law...

      2. Brandon   11 years ago

        Scott Shackford
        Associate Editor, Reason 24/7

        "Editor."

        1. Agammamon   11 years ago

          Associate *to* the Editor.

        2. Pl?ya Manhattan.   11 years ago

          We can't all be Regis grads.

  4. Hyperion   11 years ago

    In other news:

    FAKE SCANDAL

    Shreek will be here in just a moment to discredit this, right after he gets Obama's cock out of his mouth.

    1. Slammer   11 years ago

      Maybe his wife's hard drive crashed.

      1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

        What is that a euphemism for, I hate to ask?

    2. Bruce Majors Libertarian4Mayor   11 years ago

      You damn racist conspiracy theorists -- as if Obama is a top!

  5. See Double You   11 years ago

    Citing the case of Cece McDonald, a transgender woman who was sent to jail after defending herself against a homophobic attack, Chestnut noted that carrying a gun can often subject LGBT people to even greater violence.

    We shouldn't allow LBGTQs to bear arms because the police may do violence unto them.

    Brilliant.

  6. Cytotoxic   11 years ago

    So...*sigh*...is Vice becoming or already has become a more high-brow version of Slate?

    1. Bruce Majors Libertarian4Mayor   11 years ago

      You mean of Stalon.

    2. GILMORE   11 years ago

      It has been going in the Deep Derp direction since 2007, which coincidentally is when (i think?) Shane Smith took total control and McInnes left.

      They also got a bigger infusion of capital which probably twisted them hard away from their legacy 'politically incorrect' posture, to a 'more fashion-conscious version of Salon'

  7. Episiarch   11 years ago

    Wait a second! Homos are individuals like anybody else and not an indistinguishable collective that all think, vote, behave, and believe the same way?!?

    I have to sit down, this is all too much to take in. Oh wait, I am sitting down. I'd better play Borderlands then.

    1. Riven   11 years ago

      Avoiding the subject? Seems a little homophobic to me...

      1. Episiarch   11 years ago

        I'm not avoiding the subject! I just have these strange feelings that confuse me...

        1. Riven   11 years ago

          There's only one solution for this...

          1. Episiarch   11 years ago

            Well, that and watching a musical or some episodes of Glee.

            1. Riven   11 years ago

              I imagine you'll probably be drinking a glass of wine for that, too. I'd speculate on what kind, but I only drink whisky or beer... or cider.

              STFU--cider is delicious!

              1. Episiarch   11 years ago

                A mimosa, duh. I mean, it's always brunch somewhere, right?

                Cider can be delicious...if it's, say, a super dry Basque cider. That's what you drink, right? Right?!?

                1. Riven   11 years ago

                  Uh... Right!
                  .

                  I'm really more of an "any port in a storm" type of cider drinker, but I won't drink Woodchuck's cider because it tastes like it's been strained through an actual woodchuck. NTTAWWT

                  1. Episiarch   11 years ago

                    Woodchuck is grossly sweet. So it was probably strained through a diabetic woodchuck.

                    Lake Chelan Hard Cider isn't bad. But you'd be hard pressed to get it outside of Washington and maybe Oregon.

                    1. Riven   11 years ago

                      Well, I am in Montana, so...maybe I could find it if I went hunting in the western part of the state. Strongbow makes a "gold" hard cider that I like.

                2. GILMORE   11 years ago

                  I thought in Spain that was called "Sidra", and way-too-cool for 'Cider'

                  I am reminded of this exchange

              2. lap83   11 years ago

                I drink a lot of cider too. Crispin is my favorite.

                1. lap83   11 years ago

                  and I agree that Woodchuck is too sweet.

        2. AlmightyJB   11 years ago

          Have you ever watched a gladiator movie?

          1. Episiarch   11 years ago

            Yes. And I've seen a grown man naked. Now I just have to spend some time in a Turkish prison and I'm there!

            1. Scruffy Nerfherder   11 years ago

              In the cockpit?

              1. Episiarch   11 years ago

                Just like Kareem!

    2. Horatio   11 years ago

      Checking out the new BL tonight. Claptrap, right?

      1. Episiarch   11 years ago

        No, Nisha. Her Showdown action skill is fucking awesome. It's like the gun kata in Equilibrium. It crushes single enemies, groups, and absolutely annihilates flying swarms. Damn good fun.

        1. Horatio   11 years ago

          But then I'd be perpetuating the rape culture in gaming. Better to be a nice, safe, snarky, asexual robot. Like Al Gore.

        2. Catatafish   11 years ago

          I just started with Wilhelm. His dialogue is pretty hilarious.

    3. Pro Libertate   11 years ago

      I find the left's belief that they own identity groups incredibly arrogant, demeaning to those groups, and totally Machiavellian to boot.

      If I were in one of those groups, I'd tell them to fuck off, even if I agreed with the rest of their politics.

      1. wareagle   11 years ago

        it's not just the left's belief of ownership of identity groups, it's their disbelief that anyone can function outside such a group. Independent thinking is heresy among the progs.

        1. Pro Libertate   11 years ago

          You know, I think we're due for a cultural change. Maybe I'll really get my Re-Enlightenment.

      2. Episiarch   11 years ago

        It's because they're sociopaths. Other people are not people, they are playthings, pawns, things that are only there to serve and amuse them. That is why they automatically collectivize people and think they own them. Because in their minds, they do.

        1. Pro Libertate   11 years ago

          People aren't people, economics isn't economics, science isn't science, reality isn't reality.

          I'm sensing a pattern here.

          1. AlmightyJB   11 years ago

            It's called Bizarro world.

          2. Episiarch   11 years ago

            Yes, it's called sociopathy.

          3. wareagle   11 years ago

            yes, and you will also notice that those outside the hive are called deniers. Projection. Again.

    4. Bruce Majors Libertarian4Mayor   11 years ago

      Nah. Come sit over here. I'll take care of you until you recover.

      Didn't you say some time back you are Italian?

      1. Episiarch   11 years ago

        Yes, I am, but...hey, why are you taking me to your white van with the blacked out windows?

  8. Brandon   11 years ago

    Every single one of these lefty "meet the libertarian (member of stereotypically-leftist group)" articles boils down to "GET BACK ON THE PLANTATION!!!"

    1. sitnam90   11 years ago

      I think statists get scared when their 'constituents' starting finding out they can take care of themselves

      1. sitnam90   11 years ago

        Start*. No edit button around here?

  9. Trouser-Pod   11 years ago

    Thank Zod they don't call the magazine Virtue.

    Really, why is it too much to expect that a write for a rag names Vice shouldn't be surprised at something as prosaic as a libertarian* gay person?

    *(pro-2A is presumed)

  10. JD the elder   11 years ago

    As somebody put it in the AM Links comments (too lazy to go check), "Help! The gays keep escaping from this prefab ideological box I'm trying to put them in!"

  11. Horatio   11 years ago

    One issue: I thought the common definition of "gay bashing" was demeaning them verbally. So, to say you won't be bashed if you're armed implies you're willing to brandish a deadly weapon in the face of humiliation, which is not cool in Horatiopia. I definitely sympathize with the "Don't Fuck With Us, We're Armed" sentiment, but hope I'm simply misreading.

    Now, literally BASHING people, gay or otherwise? Click. Boom.

    1. wareagle   11 years ago

      I'm fairly sure bashing involves more than mean words.

    2. perlhaqr   11 years ago

      One issue: I thought the common definition of "gay bashing" was demeaning them verbally.

      No. "Gay bashing" involves actual bashing.

    3. Bruce Majors Libertarian4Mayor   11 years ago

      No Horatio "gay bashing" is the version of the "knock out" game that has gone on for decades against gay men, and usually involves broken bones, like this http://www.washingtonblade.com.....ate-crime/

    4. PM   11 years ago

      Gay bashing and gay bullying is verbal or physical abuse against a person who is perceived by the aggressor to be gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender or queer, including persons who are actually heterosexual or of non-specific or unknown sexual orientation. A "bashing" may be a specific incident, and one could also use the verb to bash (e.g. "I was gay bashed."). A verbal gay bashing might use sexual slurs, expletives, intimidation, or threats of violence. It also might take place in a political forum and include one or more common anti-gay slogans.

      I've heard the term used way more often in reference to verbal abuse than actual physical violence. Mostly by way of constant online accusations of "gay bashing" every time some 12 year old kid on COD calls somebody a faggot, for example.

      1. PM   11 years ago

        Bullshit, I double checked and my formatting was correct. Correct I tell you!

        link

      2. MegaloMonocle   11 years ago

        It got to mean verbal abuse via the usual SJW process of defining things down.

        Example: having drunken sex is now rape.

        1. Robert   11 years ago

          It was originally "fag bashing", and AFAICT that's the term "bashing" as applied to put-downs of all kinds was derived, by broadening from the physical to the metaphoric. In other words, fag bashing preceded all other bashing, and it was the other bashing that became metaphoric and then spread back to the fag context.

  12. wareagle   11 years ago

    "We need to look at the systemic inequalities that are causing people to be victims of violence," she said.

    yes, I'm sure that's just what the victims' families thought, too.

    1. Bruce Majors Libertarian4Mayor   11 years ago

      The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, a socialist group (run by some people who are actually lovely people, personally -- and who also make good money running such groups), has an annual "Creating Change" conference just along this concrete-bound, abstract thought impeded, "link the issues" approach, where victim cards are added up to see who can win the most points, and the role of the government in destroying lives through such institutions as failed and segregated state schools is totally evaded.

      1. wareagle   11 years ago

        I periodically debate which is worse: the true believers like this group you mention where people actually buy the bullshit, or the ones like the author who cannot see beyond identity politics.

        I'll go with the former. At least the group is approaching from a good faith, if totally misguided and possibly suicidal, viewpoint. The latter are just wretched people.

    2. AlmightyJB   11 years ago

      Exactly. I actually think the left wants to become victims.

      1. PM   11 years ago

        Victim status is extremely important to their worldview and political tactics, so that wouldn't be all that surprising. Hence the defining down of "victim" and the advent of "microaggressions", etc.

      2. BuSab Agent   11 years ago

        But they don't want to be real victims, because that's painful and possibly disabling.

    3. Somalian Road Corporation   11 years ago

      I seem to recall the Soviets, Red Chinese, Khmer Rouge et al. doing a whole lot of work on that whole "systemic inequalities" shebang. Curiously though, I don't recall them being too great on the "victims of violence" one.

      1. MegaloMonocle   11 years ago

        Are you kidding? Nobody has done more with victims of violence than commies!

        1. BuSab Agent   11 years ago

          Lampshades, crematoria, landfills, fertilizer, mountains of skulls...they were really quite creative in doing things with victims of violence

  13. Duke   11 years ago

    Palmer isn't the only gay pro-gun libertarian activist out there.

    So what? He's just a guy who likes to shoot his load.

    1. Bruce Majors Libertarian4Mayor   11 years ago

      Oh - you know him personally then?

  14. heartburn   11 years ago

    "Citing the case of Cece McDonald, a transgender woman who was sent to jail after defending herself against a homophobic attack, Chestnut noted that carrying a gun can often subject LGBT people to even greater violence."

    HOLY FUCKING SHIT!

    HOLY FUCKING SHIT!

    1. Bruce Majors Libertarian4Mayor   11 years ago

      You can never underestimate the stupid with leftovers.

  15. dave in PRAA   11 years ago

    D'Anastasio thinks that people prepared to shoot in self-defense is a "subculture". I'm pretty sure it's a majority.

    1. See Double You   11 years ago

      Lefty echo chambers tend to give progressives that impression.

  16. Francisco d'Anconia   11 years ago

    It astounds me that they can bash libertarians having absolutely no idea what the word even means.

    Libertarians...well...they're just to the right of ultra-conservatives. They's a "sub-culture."

    derp

    1. See Double You   11 years ago

      And Tony always tells me progressives are so nuanced attuned to reality.

      1. OldMexican   11 years ago

        Tony is just a pimp. He has little clue of what is going on.

        1. Riven   11 years ago

          Tony is just a pimp. He never coulda outfought Lucy. But I didn't know until this day, that it was Shreek all along.

    2. OldMexican   11 years ago

      That kind of ignorance and their snobbish arrogance is what gets Proggies in trouble later, like in the case of GamerGate, for instance.

      WE, libertarians, KNOW our enemy, like we know ourselves (well, at least most of the time.) THEY have NO clue who we are or what exactly we stand for, and thus lump us together with what in their mind are unsavory characters, to smear us. They question our motives, in order to poison the well and thus avoid engagement.

      The sad thing for them is that this gross display of intellectual laziness betrays their own incompetence and lack of sophistication.

      Proggies fancy themselves smart and worldly, but they're in fact quite insular and stupid. They're the true Ugly American.

  17. OldMexican   11 years ago

    She also seems to think it's odd for gays to embrace the libertarian support for a free market that makes it legal to discriminate against them

    Maybe because they prefer the free market to overbearing nannyism that destroys their chance of becoming better off.

    Shelby Chestnut, a media spokesperson at the Anti-Violence Project, which targets LGBT community members, argues that guns are tools of hate crimes

    When it comes to hate crimes, it seems the defining instrument is whatever it is politically convenient for you to hate and not what happens to cause harm, like fists or steel-toed boots, or a speeding car.

    1. Sigivald   11 years ago

      Maybe because they prefer the free market to overbearing nannyism that destroys their chance of becoming better off.

      And maybe they also remember that a lot more effective and dangerous anti-gay stuff out there had law behind it.

      A truly free market would let someone refuse service to gays, yes.

      But a libertarian state wouldn't do any of the nasty things the non-libertarian ones have over the years.

      1. heartburn   11 years ago

        They are smart enough to understand that freedom of association is a 2-way street.

      2. Flaming Ballsack   11 years ago

        excellnt ! that way youc an have a bigotedso ciety without getting youre own hands dirty. who said libetarians were stupid?

        1. heartburn   11 years ago

          You prefer your bigotry institutionalized, I see.

        2. PM   11 years ago

          who said libetarians were stupid?

          Just some raving moron with an inability to spell or punctuate.

  18. Duke   11 years ago

    "We need to look at the systemic inequalities that are causing people to be victims of violence," she said."

    And what would those "systemic inequalities" be?

    1. heartburn   11 years ago

      Victims are unarmed.

    2. flye   11 years ago

      I'm gonna go with Climate Change.

  19. Terc   11 years ago

    "We need to look at the systemic inequalities that are causing people to be victims of violence," she said. "The solution to that is definitely not creating violence to end violence."

    "One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that 'violence begets violence.' I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure ? and in some cases I have ? that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy."--Jeff Cooper

    1. Duke   11 years ago

      Since you quoted him, what do you think of the Cooper Scout rifle configuration? I'm not too crazy about short-barreled center fires and the site setup looks strange.

      1. Wasteland Wanderer   11 years ago

        For a quick-pointing, decently accurate gun the setup works fairly well. Short barreled rifles actually tend to be more accurate than rifles with longer barrels because a shorter barrel is stiffer, and hence less prone to POI shifts. You lose a bit of velocity but for .308 Win and shorter cartridges it actually isn't a whole lot.

        My one concern about it is the balance. Having the scope way out in front shifts the balance towards the muzzle a bit; I'd prefer rifles have the balance right around the action.

      2. Terc   11 years ago

        Yeah. I kind of agree, though I'm no expert by any means. I really like the appearance of the Ruger Guncite Scout fwiw.

      3. dantheserene   11 years ago

        I like the idea, but as I've read from others, it seems to be a solution in search of a problem. I'd rather have a PTR-91 for about the same money.

  20. OldMexican   11 years ago

    "We need to look at the systemic inequalities that are causing people to be victims of violence," she said.

    Because rich people don't commit crimes? I don't understand her logic.

    Maybe because there isn't one.

    1. Duke   11 years ago

      You see OldMexican, if gayz were treated equally, or in other words, a highly protected class, then mean preachers wouldn't be allowed to lament the sin of homosexuality, christian bakers would be forced to bake gay cakes, and so on. To have it otherwise is treating the gay unequally.

  21. Eric Bana   11 years ago

    So that lady thinks violence to defend yourself from aggression is wrong? Or does she just not like people using guns?

    1. Duke   11 years ago

      If a crime of gay hate was committed against her, you can rest assured she would be the first to call for the heavily armed police to open a can of whoop ass on the offender.

      1. John Titor   11 years ago

        Because police are sacred, apolitical, altruistic moral defenders of the citizenry. That's why whenever Dunphy's on here he always asks what he can do to better serve us and NEVER devolves into pathetic delusions of grandeur driven by narcissism and low accountability.

  22. GILMORE   11 years ago

    What's most hilarious about the patronizing Lefty "we own the gay" attitude is how oblivious they are to the fact that they're doing it.

    They sound like the racists who insist, "but blacks were so much *happier* as Slaves!"

  23. Xajow   11 years ago

    If you find the "gay libertarian gun enthusiast" identity perplexing, you're not alone.

    But maybe you should be. Particularly if you think "solidarity in sexual orientation" is actually a thing.

  24. Paul.   11 years ago

    Obviously headlining a story "Meet the Gay Libertarian Gun Nuts" is designed to be deliberately inflammatory clickbait.

    You guys do know that Bill Maher is the executive producer of the Vice tv series?

  25. Paul.   11 years ago

    "We need to look at the systemic inequalities that are causing people to be victims of violence," she said. "The solution to that is definitely not creating violence to end violence."

    *shrug*

    Maybe Shelby Chestnut is a pacifist.

  26. John Titor   11 years ago

    BAD GAYS, how dare you have political opinions outside of those that only started to support you when it was politically beneficial!

    1. heartburn   11 years ago

      this.

  27. Not a Libertarian   11 years ago

    What explains the overwhelming Democratic voting habits of gay and lesbian voters (in most elections around 65-70% In NYC or SF I would imagine that it would be closer to 90% and the balance being Green Party )?

    1. heartburn   11 years ago

      What explains the Democratic voting habits of anyone??

      I suspect empty campaign promises and naivety.

      1. MegaloMonocle   11 years ago

        Don't forget greed!

      2. sarcasmic   11 years ago

        Those who rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.

        1. Paul.   11 years ago

          Slow down there, cowboy.

          1. sarcasmic   11 years ago

            Those who rob Paul to pay Tony can always count on the support of Tony.

            1. Paul.   11 years ago

              Tony, by his own admission, lives in a gated community. I suspect robbing Tony to pay Paul. would net a better result.

              1. GILMORE   11 years ago

                I thought he lived in a high rise?

                We once talked about how he looked down on the 'poor' with such great sympathy and condescension

    2. GILMORE   11 years ago

      Probably the fact that the republican party has a long history of denouncing the immorality of homosexuality and trying to ban gay marriage?

      If you're trolling under the assumption that libertarians are supposed to defend SoCons, you're fishing in the wrong pond.

      1. Paul.   11 years ago

        Probably the fact that the republican party has a long history of denouncing the immorality of homosexuality and trying to ban gay marriage?

        This.

        Many of the other issues are just fluff. But when the other party attempts to make illegal or demoralize the core of who you are, you're going to vote Democrat.

      2. Not a Libertarian   11 years ago

        There is apparently this Libertarian party that my fellow gay voters could be voting for? Is there data that they vote for the Libertarians in any greater percentages that the rest of the voting public?

        There is probably a portion of the gay Democratic voting base that would vote GOP if there was a change in its biases on gay issues, but I dont think it significant.

        As Jews and African Americans will always be Democratic voters, I think Gay and Lesbian voters will always be Democratic.

        It is more than just be "anti-GOP" but what exactly I am not entirely certain.

        1. Irish   11 years ago

          As Jews and African Americans will always be Democratic voters, I think Gay and Lesbian voters will always be Democratic.

          HAHAHAHAHAHA. Are you seriously arguing that there's some sort of ingrown racial reason that black people vote Democrat? What, does skin pigment force you to vote D?

          That's astonishingly racist.

          1. sarcasmic   11 years ago

            What, does skin pigment force you to vote D?

            Do you deny that social pressure discourages many blacks from doing well in school?

            Why not a similar social pressure to vote D?

            culture != race

        2. heartburn   11 years ago

          None of this will probably make any sense to most libertarians. Most libertarians probably don't vote at all -- Libertarian or otherwise. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that more people who identify as gay vote Libertarian than people who identify as libertarian.

          In any case, I'm curious what goes through the head of a gay person who is choosing between the Libertarian and Democratic parties. Is that person choosing between freedom of association for everyone, or is he in favor of using the force of law to make people respect him? Is that really a hard choice?

          1. sarcasmic   11 years ago

            Is that person choosing between freedom of association for everyone, or is he in favor of using the force of law to make people respect him? Is that really a hard choice?

            Depends on if you have any principles beyond 'might makes right'.

        3. GILMORE   11 years ago

          "Not a Libertarian|10.23.14 @ 7:40PM|#

          There is apparently this Libertarian party that my fellow gay voters could be voting for?"

          So you were just trolling so you could express your snotty astonishment that gay libertarians exist?

          You're showing how 'open minded' you are. Bravo (golf clap)

    3. flye   11 years ago

      I know quite a few gays and lesbians in the SF bay area that could conceivably vote Republican if not for the socon issues. I mean, they own businesses too and have to do basic tax, accounting, and regulatory compliance.

      1. heartburn   11 years ago

        It really makes very little difference. Republican or Democrat -- either way, it's a vote for statism.

  28. Ornithorhynchus   11 years ago

    Why is there no video of the Gay Communist Gun Club in this article?

  29. e-bowler   11 years ago

    Seargent at arms Kevin Vickers gets standing ovation from Parliament

    Defend Parliament with a gun while wearing a badge: get a standing ovation and become a national hero.

    Defend yourself with a gun while not wearing a badge: they lock you in a cage and throw away the key.

    Way to be civilized, Canada.

  30. Jayburd   11 years ago

    Couldn't the gay libertarians (kochtopussies) go non-lethal, like a Taser, if it was sufficiently phallic? That would reduce the amount of violence involved.

    1. GILMORE   11 years ago

      Could you restate that in a more patronizing and insulting way so that minorities fully appreciate you only care for them if they're voting for your party?

  31. Jayburd   11 years ago

    If you'd trolling under the assumption that Libertarians are suppose to pander to gays, you're full of shit.

  32. Pro Libertate   11 years ago

    If Obama shot and killed someone on live TV, he'd have all copies of the program seized under "executive privilege." And any talk of it suppressed for "national security."

  33. Somalian Road Corporation   11 years ago

    Mmm, I can't wait for all the media mentioning of this which will be framed as "Republicans use X issue to attack the President" like all his other scandals and the evolutions of said scandals.

  34. Agammamon   11 years ago

    Uhm, I think, here, that this might actually be a decent, non-dick move on Obama's part.

    Unless we seriously think that Holder's wife and mother were involved then these are just actually, you know, *private* communications. Do you really want to know what's on the Holder's grocery list and what Sharon plans to do to Erico Suave once he gets home?

    Come up with some semi-decent shit that he was using his wife and mother as proxies to get around scrutiny then I'll care about this.

    OTOH

    Not that, even if this is what I think it is, if they get away with this Obama and his successors won't try to use this sort of thing as precedent in the future to cover some shit up.

    So I suppose there's a strong line of reasoning justifying prying these emails open just to make sure. Like I've said before - the police (and government in general) don't get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to possible misconduct. They need to provide *positive* evidence of non-wrongdoing.

  35. Gluesponge   11 years ago

    If he used government email systems to chat back and forth with his wife, it clearly states you have no expectation of privacy using the government systems.

    I agree that this sort of thing could be perverted in the future and give the Stasi plenty of leverage in our own personal lives, but I also think the Obama camp's rationalization for withholding their communications is grossly overstepping executive privilege.

  36. anomdebus   11 years ago

    If it were just private communication, did they really need to assert executive authority subject to withholding under the "deliberative process" exemption?

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