Minimum Wage

Hiking the Minimum Wage Won't Help the Poor

Raising the price of labor is likely to do more harm than good.

|

Wallet
NoHoDamon / Foter / CC BY-NC-ND

The ground has been shifting in the battle over the minimum wage. With President Obama's proposal to hike the national minimum from $7.25 to $9 an hour stalled in Congress, local labor activists have been aiming even higher, getting behind a vastly higher minimum wage of $15 an hour. 

The proposals are gaining steam. The small city of SeaTac, Wash., which includes Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, already has a $15 minimum in force, while Seattle plans to implement one over time. Similar "super-minimum" proposals also are under consideration in cities like San Francisco and Chicago. Recent state-level legislation will phase in a minimum wage of greater than $10 in California, Connecticut, Maryland, Hawaii and Vermont. Massachusetts' minimum will rise to $11 by January 2017, while the District of Columbia's is set to rise to $11.50 by July 2016. 

Predictably, market advocates and business interests warn that such laws portend disaster: layoffs, benefit cuts, huge surges in consumer prices, mass unemployment and business closures. Just as predictably, labor unions and their allies on the left paint the subject in terms of "fairness," arguing the higher wages will be paid out of what one SEIU lawyer called "billions and billions" in "extra" profits earned by fast food restaurants and others. 

In truth, while the proposals are deeply flawed, the projections of economic catastrophe are at least somewhat overblown. The best reason to oppose a $15 minimum wage is that it's a bad way to help the very people it is intended to help.

Though the economic literature on the subject is mixed, a comprehensive review done in 2013 by the National Bureau of Economic Research found most studies do find a small but measurable increase in unemployment in response to minimum wage hikes. The effects tend to be concentrated in a few industries that employ lots of low-wage workers, often teens and seasonal employees.

That a rising minimum wage would have only a small impact on unemployment shouldn't be terribly surprising, because government regulation doesn't have that large an immediate effect on jobs anywhere. The Bureau of Labor Statistics regularly asks employers the reason behind layoffs. Those attributed to "government regulations/intervention" are routinely less than 0.5 percent of the total.

Both because they want to take care of their employees and because they would lose customers if service levels get cut sharply, business owners will avoid layoffs if they can. Nor are the costs of higher minimum wages simply passed on to customers. While a portion of almost any cost increase will almost certainly be passed on to consumers in the form of higher prices, price competition alone means that consumers will rarely have to pay all of it. Instead, businesses may look to cut the cost of non-labor inputs, or to slow cost-of-living adjustments, cut raises for employees earning more than the minimum wage, or increase employees' share of health-care costs.  And yes, some will accept lower profits.

Of course, none of this makes a vastly higher minimum wage a good idea.  Higher labor costs will encourage businesses to automate more tasks and, over time, look for creative ways to avoid filling vacancies.  This will encourage elimination of many of the easiest-to-replace jobs.  And while mass insolvencies and rampant unemployment may be unlikely, there will certainly be some effect. Some already teetering businesses will almost certainly be pushed over the edge and some jobs that could have been taken by teenagers, the disabled and those lacking familiarity with work itself will never be created in the first place.

What's more, raising the minimum wage is simply a terrible way to help the poor. Only about 7 percent of those below the federal poverty line work a full-time job of any sort. Meanwhile, many of those who earn the minimum wage aren't poor at all. Roughly 42 percent live with a parent or relative, while another 18 percent are married second income earners, which helps explain why the average family income of a minimum wage earner is $53,000 per year.

Expanding the Earned Income Tax Credit, a direct subsidy for those who work for modest wages, is a much better and much more direct way to help the working poor. Changes to healthcare, nutrition and education programs could do still more to help those in poverty. By comparison, a $15 minimum wage, even if not as disastrous as some market advocates claim, is likely to do more harm than good.

NEXT: New Missouri Abortion Regs Are Insulting to Women

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. It distributes wealth from one group of poor people – those who keep their jobs – to another group – those who lose jobs, or never get them, because of the law.

    And I suppose there would be an inflationary effect, but I’m no expert.

    1. Oops, the distibution is of course the other way.

    2. It can also distribute wealth to non-poor people who likely already had good paying jobs. If companies now find it more economical to invest in capital than buy labor (e.g. fast food mechanizes operations), then the demand increases for engineers, mechanics, software developers, etc.

      1. your comment has little basis in reality

      2. True but shouldn’t there be some sort of line drawn.

    3. “And I suppose there would be an inflationary effect, but I’m no expert”

      Funny, the effective minimum wage has been well over double this amount at times in the past and no one yapped about it nor did it change anything except help folks a little bit.

      I think we need to consider how much more of the economy consists now of these jobs. I worked for the lowest wages going in 1972 in the low-wage south (temp day labor) and received $3.60 per hour. That’s over $20 per hour today!

      Even taking the min. wage at other times, it would turn out to be about $11 an hour today…so I feel that is a fair amount which would not change the status of business (I owned retail shops and construction companies so I do know something).

      $15 an hour is too much for many more rural and lower cost-of-living areas which is why states and cities should have some latitude.

      No, the sky is not falling when you raise the wage to $10 or $11. In fact, the positives will probably outweigh the negatives (people are more likely to actually come to work and perhaps work harder, etc.)

      1. (I owned retail shops and construction companies so I do know something).

        Which is why you paid all of your workers 1.5x the going rate, right? Uh huh.

        Even taking the min. wage at other times, it would turn out to be about $11 an hour today…so I feel that is a fair amount which would not change the status of business (I owned retail shops and construction companies so I do know something).

        And yet somehow Germany has survived all this time without a minimum wage (they just recently passed one to appease their local economic illiterates). Huh.

        No, the sky is not falling when you raise the wage to $10 or $11. In fact, the positives will probably outweigh the negatives (people are more likely to actually come to work and perhaps work harder, etc.)

        Which explains why the mainstream studies show reduced employment with higher minimum wages. Right. Benefits.

        1. Sounds to me like he should get back into business and take advantage of all those “positives” that come with paying a higher-than-market wage.

          Odd that all that speculative productivity that’s out there just waiting to be earned hasn’t been captured by some enterprising entrepreneur yet. But thank God for the forum troll, who will show us the way with his investment in the working class.

          1. Knarf Yenrab!|9.13.14 @ 1:05PM|#
            “Sounds to me like he should get back into business and take advantage of all those “positives” that come with paying a higher-than-market wage.”

            Sounds to me like he ought to quit lying.

            1. Ought in one hand, is in the other, see which one is filled first…

          2. “Sounds to me like he should get back into business and take advantage of all those “positives” that come with paying a higher-than-market wage.”

            How many yachts can I water ski behind?

            We paid all our employees fairly well – lots of benefits also. This is rare in retail, but I kept some of the same employees for 20 years and it paid off. Big time.

            We were not big biz…only a few million a year. But at least my employees could have cars and families.

            It’s hard for those of you without $$ (probably most of you) to understand that people want many other things other than money. In fact, the couple I sold my first biz to desired to walk to work and stay in a little town and raise their daughter. So they actually cut the size of the biz in 1/2 over the years as compared to what I sold them.

            As to these “mainstream studies”, they need to show me why the Tea Party Haven of SC has high unemployment as well as high poverty and misery while the Liberal Haven of MA. has vastly higher per capital earnings and lower unemployment.

            “Mainsteam studies” What a load of crap!

            Sorry to say, I know more about biz and finance than 99% of you because I lived it – started businesses, brought products to market from scratch, hired and fired, etc…and was always the chief cook and bottle washer….35+ years of that does teach one something.

            1. Anecdotal evidence and cherry picking.

              1. And lies.
                craig lies always; why anyone here takes a single word from the asshole as other than a lie is a mystery.

            2. Sorry to say, I know more about biz and finance than 99% of you

              Yeah, you just can’t look up a simple inflation calculator. Imagine that.

        2. And yet somehow Germany has survived all this time without a minimum wage (they just recently passed one to appease their local economic illiterates). Huh.

          And Switzerland and Singapore still have no minimum wage. Hong Kong has a minimum wage that’s half what America’s is.

          All three are in the top 10 richest nations on Earth.

          1. How stupid do you think people are? Really?

            “In Switzerland, nine out of ten full-time workers already earn more than the proposed minimum.”

            Ok, so those corporate powers are already paying most people MORE than $25 an hour, right? We wouldn’t even be having this discussion if US CEO’s and companies were semi-enlightened.

            In the USA, 1 in 4 private sector workers make LESS THAN $10 an hour!

            So, here is a sesame street limerick….

            Which of these things is NOT like the OTHER:

            1. The Koch-Walton USA, where 25% of workers make less than $10 an hour

            2. Switzerland, where 90% of workers make over $25 an hour

            ???????

            Now – I really need a good laugh today. So please tell me what I suspect y’all believe. Tell me if we abolish this crazy $8 or $9 an hour min. wage, THEN we will see 90% of our people make over $25. Please?? Tell me. I need it in writing!

            1. craiginmass|9.13.14 @ 5:10PM|#
              “Ok, so those corporate powers are already paying most people MORE than $25 an hour, right? We wouldn’t even be having this discussion if US CEO’s and companies were semi-enlightened.”

              Well, when the asshole isn’t lying, he’s drawing stupid conclusions from random factoids.
              Asshole, to make it short, the NUMBER is irrelevant if the mandated change affects few. I know that will tax your understanding, but try.

            2. You know, you could always propose that Massachusetts implement a $25/hr minimum wage–see how that impacts the cost of living.

              1. You would see many of the massholes drive out of state to do any real retail shopping. Those anywhere near the border already do this to purchase alcohol since they have high liquor taxes in MA but bordering NH doesn’t.

              2. Well, I guess none of your brainiacs are gonna tell us how your fine philosophy is going to make us as good as Switzerland. Funny – you extol the virtues of their having no minimum wage, but won’t tell us how that will help us.

                It’s a simple question. Will abolishing the min. wage in the USA make for vastly higher wages at the low end?

                Yes or no?

                I say no. I say it will allow predatory employers to pay LESS and therefore more more of the cost to our tax money since the people cannot even start to live on those wages.

                While you are at it, explain how Costco can pay DOUBLE what Wal-Mart does and still have better prices and make $$$.

                Tough one. I know. But the simple answer is that these small (couple bucks an hour) increases usually mean better employees and productivity, so the employers ends up with as much or more $$.

                1. So when given the real world example of what is actually occurring in Mass you avoid discussing that.

                  I don’t shop at Walmart or Costco so I don’t give a crap what their wages are. If they don’t like it they can quit and get another job. Why wouldn’t everyone that works at Walmart quit and get a job at Costco?

                  Less government will result in better wages.

                  And if it is in the interest of businesses to pay more (I say to pay market value) then why put in place costly, burdensome and imperfect government institutions that DO result on lower wages in the form of taxes and inflation instead of letting the market decide?

                2. Well, I guess none of your brainiacs are gonna tell us how your fine philosophy is going to make us as good as Switzerland.

                  You mean a small populated country with a high degree of ethnic homogenity? Yeah, I’m not sure you realize the end game here, dummy.

                  1. Wait! It was the dope smoking libertarians here who told us Switzerland turned down a min. wage and therefore they make the highest wages ever!

                    Not me!

                    Wow, talk about having it both ways.

                    You fellas claim that going to $9 is gonna hurt a lot of people. But you have to know this is untrue – so you try to “prove” it in imaginative ways.

                    1. craiginmass:

                      While you are at it, explain how Costco can pay DOUBLE what Wal-Mart does and still have better prices and make $$$.

                      Is this an argument for increasing the minimum wage?

                      Because, I don’t think that fact points in the direction you want it to.

                    2. I’m not making that argument. I made other state ya. All of which you ignored what having at your strawman.

                    3. state ya = statements

                      what = while

                3. Henry Ford figured that out a century ago.

            3. Less than 3% of all wage earners in the United States make minimum wage.

          2. Switzerland’s prices are 60% higher than the USA, according to the Big Mac Index.

            http://www.economist.com/blogs…..ly-chart-3

      2. Jeez you make stuff up.

        I worked in the Chicago suburbs at an ice-cream chain making the federal minimum wage in 1976, which was $1.65 an hour. That year the minimum wage went up to $2.30 an hour. Your $3.60 an hour was big money back then, don’t try to pretend it was the lowest thing going.

        One thing I do know — had the minimum wage been much higher back then, all my friends and I wouldn’t have had summer jobs. It was nice you could be a 15-year-old kid and get a real paycheck. Raise the minimum wage to $15, and you can say goodbye to any jobs for low-skilled teens. Hey, but there’s always gangs looking for new blood, right?

        Every time someone says “if the minimum wage goes up, employee positives like showing up for work and working harder, and less turnover!” If this was the case then no one should have to force an employer to pay more, they’d do it themselves.

        I also am amazed when people are figuring out why certain wages are needed, there’s always the hard-working man with a wife an two kids who needs that wage. Strangely enough, in the real world wives often work too! And pay is for work done — an employer does not hire you because he wants to support an entire family, he needs the labor. If he wants to support an entire family he can work out some sort of adoption.

        1. I love when yu goobers argue against
          75 years of history, you are laughable

          1. Looks like another brain-dead showed up.
            Yeah, tell us how Cuba is a wonder!

          2. Josh Rendell sounds like a Kirby vacuum salesman from 1982. Something about that makes it hard for me to take him seriously.

          3. Josh, did you ever get your piece of cake?

      3. Funny, the effective minimum wage has been well over double this amount at times in the past and no one yapped about it nor did it change anything except help folks a little bit.

        Yeah, and what happened? Inflation effectively neutered whatever temporary, transient relief provided by the increase in minimum wage.

        And no, the minimum wage hasn’t been “well over double this amount at times.” If you’re going to make an argument with data you pulled out of your ass, at least make it one that isn’t easily verifiable.

      4. I think we need to consider how much more of the economy consists now of these jobs. I worked for the lowest wages going in 1972 in the low-wage south (temp day labor) and received $3.60 per hour. That’s over $20 per hour today!

        Uh, the minimum wage in 1972 was only $1.60. In other words, you were making over twice the minimum wage. Yeah, $3.60 was ‘the lowest wages going’ in 1972, unless you count all the people making less than half that. Or, you know, the unemployed.

        1. Also, it’s amazing how you lie. Did you think no one was going to look up the minimum wage from 1972 so you could make wild claims with no basis in reality?

          Then again, you are the one who claimed we’d all be dead in car crashes without Ralph Nader, so it’s not like you’ve got much involvement with ‘reality,’ huh Craig?

      5. craignmass:

        I worked for the lowest wages going in 1972 in the low-wage south (temp day labor) and received $3.60 per hour. That’s over $20 per hour today!

        The minimum wage in 1972 was $1.60, not $3.60.

        1. Doh. I should read further before I start calling bullshit. Irish, you beat me to it. Bows.

        2. Craigin mass …what should government do for all the poor old people on fixed incomes who can’t even afford a free state ID in order to vote now that you admit that artificial wage increases will increase inflation ?

          Huh Craig, what about those on fixed incomes that aren’t going to be able to vote because of your government benvolence ?

          Why do you want to supress the minority vote ? What about those unintended consequences ? Or are they unintended ?

          Why do you hate old poor people ?

          Racist bastard.

          /prog derp if the shoe were on the other foot

        3. Maybe you should learn to read. “Lowest Wages Going”.

          I worked two jobs- the first was at manpower, a temp agency – unskilled in Nashville. They paid $3.60 an hour as I remember. Probably 1973, but could have been 74.

          Soon after I got a job on a construction site carrying 2×4’s. This was before I learned to use a saw, so I was unskilled. I got paid $5 an hour.

          That’s $25 today. Can you make $25 in the low wage South today carrying 2×4’s from one pile to the sawhorses? I’d bet the top carpenter on the job doesn’t make that…..

          1. craiginmass:

            Maybe you should learn to read. “Lowest Wages Going”.

            When I google “lowest going wage”, I get the following links, in this order:
            1. List of minimum wages by country
            2. Minimum wage in the United States
            3. States with the lowest minimum wages – USA Today
            etc.

            So, when you say “lowest wages going”, what do you mean, in your own world? Because, it isn’t what we all seem to mean in this one.

            You also kept talking about how the minimum wage used to be twice as much as it is now, when you factor in inflation. So, what was that based on? Can you provide a citation? Because inflation tables sure don’t show that, when we use the real minimum wage, instead of your anecdotal stories.

            You can google “construction worker pay” and “carpenter pay” and find out the answers to your own questions. What that’s supposed to do with the minimum wage, I don’t know.

            1. …”So, when you say “lowest wages going”, what do you mean, in your own world? Because, it isn’t what we all seem to mean in this one.”…

              Asshole is a lefty and lies as a matter of course.
              What asshole means is whatever lie, misdirection, innuendo or other bit of mendacity asshole hopes he can get others to fall for.
              Suffice to say, if it came from asshole, it is dishonest in some way or other.

          2. Can a masshole in Mass-hole make $25/hr carrying lumber on a non-Davis Bacon job site?

            Sure it wasn’t 1982. Or 1992?

            Better yet. Why not stop federal borrowing so that inflation doesn’t erode the purchasing power of the dollar? It would be like getting a 5% raise each year.

      6. Holy shit you are one retarded pinko.

        What’s even more impressive is you’re able to convert your wages into what they’d be in today’s dollars but still fail to see the inflation inherent in that statement.

      7. craiginmass:

        Will you please explain why businesses have to be *forced*, by law, to raise their minimum wage?

        And explain why all such jobs that are now classified as minimum wage jobs must all pay the exact same wage, even though they are not all the same type of job, and cover a wide spectrum of requirements?

        1. Wait a second – do you mean to tell me that wages are based on value provided, and not what it would take me to feed my family? Well fuck. I’ve been thinking about this all wrong.

        2. “Will you please explain why businesses have to be *forced*, by law, to raise their minimum wage?”

          Silly question. We’d need a book or more to school you.

          Let me start…you take it from here

          1. We live in modern times in a civilized and advanced society.
          2. In this type of industrialized society, it is virtually impossible for anyone to be self-sufficient – we all rely on vast and complex systems to survive.
          3. Whether by law or by custom or other means – we don’t let people starve here nor do we “let em die” as the right wing wants to.
          4. Further to #3, the TAXPAYERS pay the fees for those who don’t earn enough..to make up for the difference.
          5. Further to #3 and #4, when a person makes minimum wages and need everything from medical care to food stamps to public transit…you and I pay to subsidize these things.

          Therefore, since I don’t enjoy paying vast fees to keep larger profits in the pockets of the Waltons and many more…..I’d rather they pay the actual COSTS involved as opposed to living off the welfare I provide them.

          Make sense?

          Now, if US Employers were even slightly enlightened – like Costco (pays $20 an hour), we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. Sadly, these corporations have decided that PEOPLE are not part of the equation -only profits.

          1. “3. Whether by law or by custom or other means – we don’t let people starve here nor do we “let em die” as the right wing wants to.””

            Nancy ? Nancy Pelosi ? Here on Reason ? OMG !!

            Everyone lives their life in modern times.

            “Therefore, since I don’t enjoy paying vast fees to keep larger profits in the pockets of the Waltons and many more…..I’d rather they pay the actual COSTS involved as opposed to living off the welfare I provide them.”

            So you are for a law that would both increase the minimum wage and also decrease the overall spending on welfare ?

          2. craiginmass|9.13.14 @ 5:28PM|#
            “Will you please explain why businesses have to be *forced*, by law, to raise their minimum wage?”
            Silly question. We’d need a book or more to school you.”

            So, asshole, you cannot explain why without reference to a series of lies?
            No surprise.

          3. Why not? Fire isn’t ready for the steaks yet…

            “1. We live in modern times in a civilized and advanced society.”

            Irrelevance from the asshole.
            ————-
            “2. In this type of industrialized society, it is virtually impossible for anyone to be self-sufficient – we all rely on vast and complex systems to survive.”

            Irrelevance from the asshole, #2.
            ————
            “3. Whether by law or by custom or other means – we don’t let people starve here nor do we “let em die” as the right wing wants to.”

            Irrelevance from the asshole, #3, followed by lie from the asshole.
            ————–
            “4.Further to #3, the TAXPAYERS pay the fees for those who don’t earn enough..to make up for the difference.”

            Lie from the asshole, based on some fatuous presumption of ‘fair’ or other fantasies.
            ———————
            “5. Further to #3 and #4, when a person makes minimum wages and need everything from medical care to food stamps to public transit…you and I pay to subsidize these things.”

            A repeat of the lie stated in #4, as if an asshole repeating a lie made it other than a lie.
            —————–
            “Therefore, since I don’t enjoy paying vast fees to keep larger profits in the pockets of the Waltons and many more…..I’d rather they pay the actual COSTS involved as opposed to living off the welfare I provide them.
            Make sense?”

            No. A conclusion based on irrelevancies and lies does not ‘make sense’, asshole.

            1. BTW, the steaks were WONDERFUL!

          4. craiginmass:

            Make sense?

            Not really.

            For example, fast food workers of the world are uniting for a $15/hour wage, but people are also producing BurgerBot. As BurgerBot gets cheaper, and the price of labor gets more expensive, eventually, the costs cross, and BurgerBot wins out. So, where do the potential fast food $15/hour employees go? Why, they go to other jobs…but, oh wait! You’re talking about a minimum wage across all jobs, much more than that (healthcare, after all)! So, they go on welfare.

            So, instead of spending less for goods and more on welfare, we spend more for goods and more for welfare? Brilliant alternative.

            Or, perhaps we’re assuming that all the producers in industry start acting against their own best interest, and just pay more for the sake of your standards? You’re a businessman, so tell me: exactly how many employees did you hire for no reason, other than you just wanted to take care of them? Is that what your system is relying on here? In that case, why do we need a minimum wage at all, with such altruistic capitalists?

            It’s funny how statists claim that we need regulation because it would be silly to assume that everyone just acts like an angel, and then they propose policies and goals that require assuming that everyone just acts like an angel. Go figure.

            Your minimum wage is masturbatory: hope it makes you feel good.

            1. But Burger Bot doesn’t have a “spit on” function.

          5. There’s no way craigtheass has “brought products to market” and “launched businesses” unless he means he brought shopping bags to the grocery store andd used the lemons he bought to start a lemonade stand.
            Cuse holy fuck is he ever retarded. Seriously, he makes Tony look like a fkn economic genius.

          6. Craig, Duvall Patrick allowed over 200 kids in DCF to go missing and has done virtually nothing about it. No doubt some of those kids are dead. Some are sex slaves. And some are starving. Your #3 doesn’t pass the liberal politician’s record test.

          7. A cashier at Costco wage ranges from $10 – 22 according to Glassdoor. It averages about $15.

            Most minimum wage earners make it for about 6 months before they earn a raise.

      8. “Funny, the effective minimum wage has been well over double this amount at times in the past and no one yapped about it nor did it change anything except help folks a little bit.”

        That’s completely bullshit. The US minimum wage has never even reached $11 per hour when adjusting for inflation. You really don’t know what you are talking about.

        For most of it’s history minimum wage has been under $8 per hour when adjusting for inflation.

          1. Well, using your own chart, it appears the FEDERAL min wage averaged about $8.50+ for a 10-15 year period back in the 70’s……

            States, of course, were often higher.

            Now, a pop quiz for you. How much has the productivity of the American worker increased since then?

            Well, it TRIPLED in manufacturing, but let’s assign only a doubling to general productivity. This means said worker is, in theory, worth $17. But he or she certainly should not see ALL the benefits of productivity. The customers gets some and the capital for the new machines and processes needs to be paid for. So let’s give our worker just 1/3 of the increase, leaving 2/3 for the boss and the consumer.

            Wow, that puts him up to $11-$12+ per hour!

            Now we have to remember, you guys are fighting AGAINST a raise to $9.

            So who is the outlier here?
            http://www.gallup.com/poll/165…..-wage.aspx

            Most Americans are with me…because they are either reasonable – or, according to you guys, pinkos…so be it.

            BTW, 76% is a very healthy majority! Only your Koch money is stopping that one from becoming law.

            1. “10-15 year period back in the 70’s”

              What time frame are you talking about, exactly? 70-85? 79-94?

            2. Well, using your own chart, it appears the FEDERAL min wage averaged about $8.50+ for a 10-15 year period back in the 70’s……

              And as we all know, the 1970s were a rip-roaring economic success!

              At least you’re abandoning the claim that the minimum wage was double the current rate. so that’s a start.

              Now, a pop quiz for you. How much has the productivity of the American worker increased since then?

              Pop quiz–is it because the workers are more productive, or because they’ve been replaced with technology that’s more productive? You might want to ask some of the factory workers from the 1970s about that.

              The rest of your spiel is the typical shitlib nonsense.

              1. Or is it because one worker is now required to do the work of 3. You know, since the other 2 were never hired, due to the forced price floor on labor.

  2. The reason people should oppose minimum wage hikes – or even minimum wages at all – is because it raises the price of products and services to consumers.

    I’m sure there’s a Laffer Curve sweet spot at which wage-induced cost increases don’t yet turn customers away. But, in an era where the progressive clerisy sees Piketty as the second coming, we’ve probably reached the point of no return.

    1. “The reason people should oppose minimum wage hikes – or even minimum wages at all – is because it raises the price of products and services to consumers.”

      So you are saying that the Meaning of Life is shown in being able to buy something at Wal-Mart for $1.88 instead of $1.90?

      1. So you’re saying that the Meaning of Life is shown in being able to spend other people’s money while failing to achieve your goal because it makes you feel good?

        http://www.nber.org/papers/w6996
        http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba792

      2. craiginmass|9.13.14 @ 12:10PM|#
        “So you are saying that the Meaning of Life is shown in being able to buy something at Wal-Mart for $1.88 instead of $1.90?”

        No, you slimy liar, the ‘meaning of life’ may be buying food for your family.
        But lefty slime balls aren’t interested in that; they are far more interested in straw-man battles.

        1. So, you can’t count? How much more do you think an item at Wally World would have to cost in order to pay the worker $9 instead of $7.50?

          Do some research. They could afford to pay MUCH more with virtually no problems except the higher sales they may make since the employees can buy more stuff that.
          http://fortune.com/2013/11/12/…..-50-raise/

          That communist Henry Ford paid $5 a day when everyone else was paying 1/2 that. The Capitalist Pigs yelled about him doing that too…because he made them look bad.

          Oh, that $5 a day Henry gave unskilled workers – guess what? Yes, that’s $120 a day today or $15 an hour! Hmmmm…….how far we have sunk.

          1. No wonder your “businesses” tanked.

          2. craiginmass|9.13.14 @ 5:34PM|#
            “Do some research. They could afford to pay MUCH more with virtually no problems except the higher sales they may make since the employees can buy more stuff that.”

            Oh, LOOK! Asshole cites an opinion piece by some writer as PROOF!
            ————-
            “Oh, that $5 a day Henry gave unskilled workers – guess what? Yes, that’s $120 a day today or $15 an hour! Hmmmm…….how far we have sunk.”

            Oh, LOOK! Asshole makes assumption as PROOF!

            1. Actually, many auto plants in the south pay workers less than that.

              Remember – this was the lowest starting wage for completely unskilled labor. Virtually anyone could get a job making that. Even blind and disabled people.

              Now you have to stand in line, pee in a jar and hope to God that they hire you for $11 or $12 – PLUS, productivity in auto manufacturing has probably gone up by 10X….so the worker is creating much more value (in combo with capital and management).

              Anyway, the point was not auto manufacturing – but that the sky will not fall if wages increase.

              I promise. It won’t.

              1. And auto ants in Michigan paid more than that. And many have closed. I’m sorry, but affixing a bumper to a car is not worth $120/hr. And neither me nor the market is willing to subsidize that.

              2. And what percent of their income did the workers at Henry Ford’s plants pay in income taxes? Hmmmmm? Is this not relevant somehow?

          3. And how much do auto workers make today? A lot more than $15 an hour. What’s your point?

            1. Whahappan?|9.13.14 @ 10:26PM|#
              “And how much do auto workers make today? A lot more than $15 an hour.”

              The ones employed do so. The ones out of a job as a result of asshole’s propaganda, not so much.

              1. Oh, look – “subcontractors” pay as little as $10 an hour for workers in the same plant!

                http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..ooks-like/

                1. What does the $10/hr employee do? And thy pay up to $18/hr. This is in Tenn. where the cost if living is appreciably less than Mass. And the article goes on to say the Nissan workers make about double. So starting at basically $40k/yr in Tenn (not counting OT pay)?

                  Oh, and people are buying Nissan’s products. So the jobs will likely be there for years to come. I had a Sentra built in 1992 from that plant.

                  1. OK, so since the article claims it’s likely that the MAJORITY of workers are subcontractors – and subs make as little as $10, you are willing to concede the point that MANY auto workers make less than Henry Ford paid illiterates back in 1913?

                    Thanks!

                    1. In 1913, didn’t Henry Ford revolutionize labor by paying everyone $5/day?

                      Which is $119 a day in current dollars? Or, $15/hour, assuming an 8 hour day (you know, great working conditions and all)?

                      Current auto workers make more than that, and they get health benefits, pensions, etc., which make the real pay multiples higher.

                      Do you just make stuff up if it sound good? You know, there’s google. You can actually look stuff up instead of making bizarre assumptions about current auto workers pay vs. their pay in 1914, as extrapolated from the wages of subcontractors who might be making less than $10/hour.

                      I mean, seriously, why would you do that kind of lazy analysis, instead of looking it up? It reveals a lot.

                    2. Also, I highly doubt these contractors are doing the same thing. Yeah, they may work next to some union auto workers who make much more than they do. However, don’t most union contracts prohibit hiring outside the union? isn’t that the point of organized labor? So that you can threaten to shut down a company by going on strike?

                      If auto producers can higher extensively outside of the union, then I assume the united auto works should collapse any day now, an event they’ve managed to hasten through their own clever negotiations over the years.

                    3. The article implies it is greater than half. But provides no substantiated evidence. There’s some strong journalism for you.

                      Again, what does the $10/hr employee do? How many are compensated at this rate? What percentage are compensated at this rate?

          4. “The Capitalist Pigs yelled at him”? WHO exactly yelled at him? And for the record, it was Henry Ford’s money and he could do what he wanted no matter who “yelled at him.”

            Minimum wage is not government “yelling” at anyone to do what they think with their own money, it’s mandating and fining and jailing anyone who doesn’t.

        2. I guess you really enjoy paying
          for low wage workers healthcare
          and foodstamps with your taxes, dummy

          1. Why do we have so many more low skill workers than we have low skill jobs ?

            1. Not to mention low skill trolls?

          2. Not really–I’d rather get rid of both.

            Healthcare in particular was cheaper when Medicare and Medicaid didn’t exist.

            1. And our average life span was 8 yeas shorter….

              That’s a lot of living you want to give up….a lot

              1. Connect the dots please.

                Amish live within about a year of non-Amish. And they aren’t on Medicare. And they do one of the most dangerous progressions. I wouldn’t be surprised when correcting for decreased life expectancy due to vocational hazards they may live longer. Without the government.

                1. Ah, now you are really reaching!

                  Comparing people who don’t breathe Koch exhausts all day and saying that proves something.

                  Wow…..talk about a stretch! What happened to science? As you well know, things measured across tens of millions are MUCH more accurate.

                  So, I repeat, they live longer and have less infant mortality. Reasonable people in the modern world know that means their health care, even with all kinds of problems, delivers more.

                  1. You are giving Medicare credit for advancements in healthcare. I asked for you to connect the dots. And you failed. We could give credit for Mickey Mantle being alive in the same time frame.

                    I showed that Amish live nearly as long (with about a year) as non-Amish. Amish don’t live on some other planet. They live in proximity to Non-Amish. You will have to provide evidence that pollution affects non-Amish differently than Amish.

                  2. Yes. Just think of all the advantages of being Amish.

              2. And our average life span was 8 yeas shorter…

                Yeah, you can keep a lot of fatties alive with the drugs and technology we have available today.

                That’s a lot of living you want to give up….a lot

                Yes, I should strive to live as long as possible so I can end up with Alzheimer’s in an old folks’ home, not even recognizing my own family. Or go through a multitude of joint replacement surgeries, or spend my golden years on a cocktail of drugs in a futile fight to keep entropy from taking place. Sounds like a great time!

                1. “Sounds like a great time!”

                  You are FOS and you know it…or should.

                  Please tell us the stats at to what percentage of people spend their last 8 years doing that???

                  My MIL is 94 and both parents are 85 – thanks to medicare…and both living happily.

                  1. You are FOS and you know it…or should.

                    Yeah, basic biological deterioration doesn’t exist!

                    Please tell us the stats at to what percentage of people spend their last 8 years doing that???

                    Starting at what age?

                    My MIL is 94 and both parents are 85 – thanks to medicare…and both living happily.

                    Your anectodes are FOS and you know it.

      3. Except that it’s not just buying ‘something at Walmart’ for 2 cents less, it’s buying every single good for lower prices. How rich are you, Craig? I ask because there are a whole lot of families for whom lower prices on every item they buy is a fairly big deal.

        It might not matter in your gated community, but it matters quite a bit to the sort of people who actually shop at Wal-Mart, you fucking lunatic.

        1. ” but it matters quite a bit to the sort of people who actually shop at Wal-Mart, you fucking lunatic.”

          Right, and I’m sure the millions who WORK at Walmart shop there too. How much more would they spend if they made $12 or $14 an hour instead of $8.50?

          Let me know

          I have been poor and I have been rich. I can assure you that $1.88 or $1.90 didn’t make a difference…even when I had an outhouse and lived on a couple bucks a day.

          1. craiginmass|9.13.14 @ 5:36PM|#
            …”I have been poor and I have been rich. I can assure you that $1.88 or $1.90 didn’t make a difference”…

            I was poor and I’m not anywhere close to that anymore and I can tell you you are one lying piece of shit. Asshole, you claim to have been in business and that’s obviously a lie.
            Businesses do not ‘pass on’ additional costs; they add markups. People who do business, unlike lying assholes, know that.
            A $7.50/hr change means prices reflect ~$22.50 increases, so your made up 2 cents is just one more lie.

          2. You know the average employee at Walmart already makes $12 am hour right?

            No you couldn’t know that cause you’re an idiot.

          3. Wait, you made $3.60 an hour in 1972, which was more than double the minimum wage IN THE LOW WAGE SOUTH yet, while you also lived in a place with an OUTHOUSE on a couple of bucks a day, what, in 1936? Learn to lie better.

            1. Craig is a masshole and they tend to have “northern bias.” Anyone from the south is an idiot and needs a Kennedy type to look after them.

            2. Actually, if you’ve live in WV, TN, KY and other such places, you’d know that outhouses were quite prevalent in the 1970’s.

              But since y’all are probably metrosexuals with little experience in the real world, you wouldn’t have such knowledge.

              Here you go – some 60’s pics…things didn’t change by the early 70’s. This is your Koch resource-extraction world gone mad….

              http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new…..XTIES.html

              1. Having an outhouse results in the need for massholes to invade to bring culture,sophistication and modernity? So they don’t have a choice? You will force it I them?

                There are similar situations in northern New England.

                We are considering putting in an outhouse with a composting toilet. Should that be banned or merely taxed and regulated?

              2. The only ones with obviously no real world experience are you and josh. But then, being a progressive and supporting communist bullshit precludes you from acknowledging reality.

          4. You’ve never been rich.
            But you’ve likely always been dim-witteddd liar.

      4. If you think their prices are too low, shop somewhere else.

        1. As I do. You won’t find me there often….

          I use Amazon mostly because it’s more energy efficient. Driving to the store to buy something for a small savings is false economics.

          1. You don’t shop there often? Why not never?

            And by using Amazon you avoid paying the substantial Mass sales tax. Unless of course you write the check at the end of the year. But since you elected not to pay the higher income tax when the Mass income tax was lowered I doubt you do that.

            And how is a UPS truck more energy efficient than a Tesla motors car powered by a PV array?

  3. Though the economic literature on the subject is mixed, a comprehensive review done in 2013 by the National Bureau of Economic Research found most studies do find a small but measurable increase in unemployment in response to minimum wage hikes. The effects tend to be concentrated in a few industries that employ lots of low-wage workers, often teens and seasonal employees.

    See, here’s the problem with this logic. Most of the minimum wage hikes in American history have been very small. The highest minimum wage in history adjusted for inflation was like $10 an hour and four years later it had already fallen to only slightly over $8.00 an hour because they had high inflation between 1968-1970.*

    You can’t assume that raising the minimum wage to fucking $15 an hour would have a mild effect when it’s $5 higher than we’ve ever had it. It’s more than a doubling of the current minimum. If raising to $8 had a increased unemployment, what would $15 do?

    *Incidentally, progs who claim the minimum wage has fallen over time are idiots because they ignore the *state* minimum wages. Twenty one states have minimum wage laws higher than the federal average, including 4 of the 5 most populous states. That means the average minimum wage is much higher than $7.25 and is pretty much in line with historical averages.

    1. I’ll often see them admit that you can’t just raise the minimum wage to $100 and expect no adverse effects. But small, common-sense increases to the minimum wage are going to show no or even positive employment effects. Just look at this one study from the 90s! It’s proven.

      Except even going from $7.25 to $10.10 is a 40% increase. Forty percent is not small.

      1. And here comes craig to prove my point!

        1. Prove you point?

          Why don’t you relate to us what happened when Henry Ford raised wages 100%?

          http://www.thedailybeast.com/a…..rofit.html

          “By paying a wage that was significantly above what the market required, Ford was betraying his fellow business owners and putting the whole of American enterprise in jeopardy. The Wall Street Journal editorial page, then, as now, a hotbed of revanchism, sniffed: “To double the minimum wage, without regard to length of service, is to apply Biblical or spiritual principles where they do not belong.””

          “So this was Ford’s theory: Companies had an interest in ensuring that their employees could afford the products they produced. Put another way, employers had a role to play in boosting consumption. While paying higher wages than you absolutely needed to might lower profits temporarily, it would lead to a more sustainable business and economy over time.”

          1. Henry didn’t have investors like 401K institutionals to keep happy either.

            Henry went on to some financial relationships with the Soviets that he wasn’t too happy with the end results of also. Many aren’t aware but during this time period hundreds of thousands of Americans immigrated to the “Workers Paradise” that was the Soviet Union. Most of them eventually wound up in the Gulags worked to death within a few years. Ford was a part of the movement that inticed them to do so. Don’t try to hang Ford over my head like a modern day Warren Buffett. Ford and Buffett are much alike in their faux persona of being for the “working man”, They are both nothing more than crony capatilists type facists or socialists. ( I’ll let others more educated on the difference to decide).

            If Ford built locomotive engines or ships he might not have wanted to pay his employees enough to afford one of those. Would you harp Ford’s wages if he built pencils ?

            Ford got a direct personal payback from his investment in wages. Other businesses, maybe not so much.

          2. I love that you keep invoking Henry Ford as some kind of example, never bothering to realize that he paid those rates VOLUNTARILY.

            Fuck me.

            1. “never bothering to realize that he paid those rates VOLUNTARILY.”

              Well, then, why did all the capitalists and libertarians of the time speak out so harshly against him…..??

              1. Libertarians spoke out against Ford voluntarily paying his workers whatever he wanted?

                Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

                Fuck you really are even more retarded than shrike.

                Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

              2. It reduced absenteeism and worker turnover, improved productivity, and earned more profit for himself.

          3. craiginmass|9.13.14 @ 6:05PM|#
            “Why don’t you relate to us what happened when Henry Ford raised wages 100%?”

            OK, asshole:
            …”Ford did pay those wages, but about half of the money was profit-sharing, and the employees had to prove they were living upstanding and moral lives to get that extra pay.”…
            And
            …”Ford didn’t pay so much because of beliefs about enriching workers. He had no choice.
            According to Meyer, in 1913, the year before Ford doubled wages, the turnover rate at his plants was 370 percent.”
            http://seattletimes.com/html/o…..21xml.html
            The point is not whether Ford was a good guy or not. The point, asshole, is that you and other lefty ignoramuses keep lying in the hopes that someone won’t notice.

            1. Now you are getting the picture! Employees work better, show up at work and lead better lives when they are paid well.

              1. WITHOUT THE NEED FOR GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT. And only the better workers get paid that. The lesser ones go on to jobs that require less skill and aptitude, which results in less pay.

                1. Oh, we agree on something…but you are factually wrong.

                  1. Ford made it the MINIMUM – paid to anyone who showed up and worked their 8 hours.

                  2. IF people were not like you fella’s and Kochs, then we wouldn’t have to mandate any of this stuff, because basic common sense, compassion and patriotism would increase wages. But since many in America think “they built it” when they see our world and infrastructure – sadly we have to put them in line to pay the bills.

                  1. You know, somewhere in Russia, there’s a crazy, old, deranged grandpa explaining how great the Soviet Union under Stalin was, and how bad it is that they’ve let Russia fall so far.

                    You’d be kindred spirits.

                    1. “You know, somewhere in Russia, there’s a crazy, old, deranged grandpa explaining how great the Soviet Union under Stalin was, and how bad it is that they’ve let Russia fall so far.”

                      At work, I have a friend who is a ph.D in biochemical engineering who is also a Soviet emigre. I asked her about living in the Soviet Union and she told me that things were better there as people were more collegial, the museums and art exhibits were free, and people didn’t have to worry about their retirement which was provided by the government.

                      My suspicion about people in Russia and Eastern Europe, who continue to vote for ex-communist political parties in droves, is that it’s just not limited to a few old codgers in longing for communism. Have you seen polls on how Russians feel about Gorbachev and Yeltsin? Maybe you just haven’t been there, don’t know the experience of the people there, and don’t know what you are talking about. Maybe people don’t want the dog-eat-dog economy based on cult Austrian economics that you are hocking.

                    2. That’s pretty stupid.

                      things were better there as people were more collegial

                      Gee, when you make everyone poor, the people who envy wealth become more collegial, and the people who would be wealthier shrug and bear it. How could we not envy such a system, where everyone is more collegial? Clearly, in optimizing human happiness, that should be priority 1: centralized niceness.

                      the museums and art exhibits were free

                      We have free museums, too, you know.

                      people didn’t have to worry about their retirement which was provided by the government.

                      Sure, what’s the point of worrying about a retirement you have absolutely no control over? Sure, in the US, anyone can choose not to worry about retirement. We have glorious SS. But, then, there’s that damn pesky problem of knowing that you might possibly have more wealth in retirement if you save money. But that’s capital accumulation, a big no no. And, it’s so taxing on the mind to think about. It’s much less stressful to not have the choice. That way, there’s nothing to worry about.

                    3. american socialist:

                      Have you seen polls on how Russians feel about Gorbachev and Yeltsin?

                      I’ve seen Obama’s approval ratings. Do you draw the same sweeping conclusions?

                      When a population is propagandized since birth that communism is awesome, and that capitalism sucks, and then, suddenly, the leaders are forced to admit that they’ve been centrally planning the economy into stagnation, I suspect most of the propagandized population immediately feel like some sort of betrayal is going on. Not only that, but they’re completely unprepared to understand how to function in the evil, dark capitalist system that they’ve been completely misinformed about since birth. It’s part of the fun that communism gives people: soul crushing, really

                      Maybe you just haven’t been there, don’t know the experience of the people there, and don’t know what you are talking about.

                      Ooooh, I’ve been to Russia. I understand them.

                      Yeah, I’ve been to Russia. I met people. Didn’t meet too many who pined for the return of a Stalin-like existence. But, then maybe I travelled in different circles than you did. If those are your people, you enjoy that. I hope the cosplay is fun, too.

                      The success of capitalism over communism is so apparent that the ruling class doesn’t even pretend anymore. In fact, they try to dress up capitalism plus welfare state as a “new socialism”, admitting that central planning of industry is a complete failure. They jettisoned that idea

                    4. Soviet emigre

                      And yet she’s here. She left the ‘better’ place…….why?

                  2. Dad, thanks for telling me how I should be. Want to come to my house and go through my fridge as well? Do I need to make better culinary decisions? Any other aspects of my life you have self appointed yourself to be my overseer?

                    Thing is though that people are like us. And wen they are in “I’m a customer using my own money” they are in it in spades.

                    He made it the minimum for the workers that worked. Are you telling me that he never fired anybody because they couldn’t cut it? Those people ended up making less somewhere else where the skill set requirements were less.

      2. The Card-Krueger study really needs to die in the public consciousness. It was based on self-reported survey data from selected restaurants which was later revised to say that there was a small increase in employment

        The other thing about Card-Krueger’s study is that it relies on two things in order to make a case that min wage hikes lower unemployment:

        1) A min wage increase that is under or at the equilibrium price, which for whatever reason has not yet been adjusted to by the market

        2) A min wage increase that is higher than the reservation wage of prospective employees

        Of course, since #1 will adjust over time anyways and since #2 has a large welfare component as opportunity cost, the far easier way to reduce unemployment is to eliminate or reduce welfare (which is the opposite of what min wage boosters advocate). Sometimes the min wage increase can beat the markets to the punch, but it will never take markets to where they don’t want to go.

        1. Correction on first paragraph:

          The Card-Krueger study really needs to die in the public consciousness. It was based on self-reported survey data from selected restaurants which was later revised to say that there was a small increase in employment for small businesses and a small decrease for large businesses.

    2. “If raising to $8 had a increased unemployment, what would $15 do?”

      Well, since 9 out of 10 people in Switzerland make over $25 an hour – maybe that gives you an insight??

      1. craiginmass|9.13.14 @ 5:37PM|#
        …”maybe that gives you an insight??”

        As a demonstration of lefty stupidity, I guess you could call it an ‘insight’.

      2. So wouldn’t it make sense for all third works nations to raise wages to $25/hr to both end poverty AND unemployment?

    3. “You can’t assume that raising the minimum wage to fucking $15 an hour would have a mild effect when it’s $5 higher than we’ve ever had it.”

      Hmm, do you enjoy your straw men?

      I think the proposals on the table are asking for $9 to $10.10 an hour. Could you look it up and get back to us?

      “President Obama called for an increase in the federal minimum wage from $7.25 to $10.10 an hour.”

      1. Haven’t there been national protests over $15/hr? And something about an airport in Seattle? There are multiple proposals and $15/hr is one if them.

  4. It doesn’t need to help the poor, it is only supposed to make liberals happy that their good intentions were put into law.

    1. That’s the mistake with a lot of policy analysis based on stated intentions – what makes you think that helping the poor is the only, or even the primary, purpose of enacting higher minimum wage laws?

      It will certainly help some poor people and those ones will be expected to know how to show their graditude, some of the ones who are hurt by it will be expected to clamor for more government intervention to secure the blessings of the state for themselves and their prosperity.

      But the great mass of people will see either no correlation or a negative correlation between a minimum wage hike and any harms – hiking the minimum wage is a good thing so any harms must be the fault of those rich racist evil greedy bastard capitalist Republicans bent on undermining any attempt to help poor cute little homeless crippled minority children out of sheer spite and bitter hatred.

  5. Put a cap on market capitalization of NYSE companies

    1. Congrats, this is the dumbest idea I’ve seen this week. And I read /r/politics regularly, so I’m well versed in nitwit populism.

      1. HC, that can’t be serious. Gotta be sarc; not even the dumbest of our lefty trolls admits to that level of stupidity in public.

      2. I read /r/politics regularly, so I’m well versed in nitwit populism.

        That’s some hard-core masochism right there. I can barely bring myself to glance at the headlines of the featured links without a couple of stiff drinks in me beforehand. I have no idea how much brain damage I would have to sustain to make me look at the comments, but I’m pretty sure it would be a substantial fraction of the brain damage I would sustain by actually looking at the comments.

    2. “Put a cap on market capitalization of NYSE companies”

      Only if they must pay the remainder out as dividends to me.

      1. You’re an idiot, craig =

        market cap is just price X float.

        If there’s a ‘price ceiling’ (via limit to market cap), then there’s no reason for people to “pay themselves” dividends by converting CASH into Taxable Income simply by raising the price above the cap. That would result in a net loss of capital for no reason.

        How fucking stupid do you have to be not to understand the absolute basics of what you’re talking about = ‘Craiginmass’-stupid?

        1. GILMORE|9.13.14 @ 3:13PM|#
          “You’re an idiot, craig =”

          But craig lies that he’s a business creature!

  6. Disheartenedly, Lehrer does not even mention the main argument against minimum wage laws: they violate the individual rights of employers and employees by dictating the conditions of employment. It obviously violates the right of employers by dictating what they must pay employees rather than what the market dictates. Never mentioned is the fact that the laws also violate the individual rights of the employees by dictating a minimum amount they must be paid even when they cannot command that amount because they do not yet have the skills needed. Thus they drive the potential employee from the labor market. All other arguments are secondary to these. Sometimes I don’t libertarians really understand first principles at all.

    1. Sure, if you’re talking to an audience who already agrees with you. If your goal is to actually convince anyone outside the echo chamber, you have to use utilitarian arguments.

      1. I respectfully disagree. The philosophical justification of individual rights is the part that is missing. Individual rights are not just an opinion held by a group in an echo chamber or any other kind of chamber. Rights have a logical justification and defenders of liberty must know them to win these arguments.

        1. Most people ask ‘what will this do to my paycheck?’ not ‘what are the philosophical justifications for this argument?’

          That’s the problem. You can argue the philosophy of individual rights all you want, but outside of a very small cadre of well-educated libertarians, that argument will not fly.

          1. Try it. I do all the time. In your discussion, play the role of the low skill worker just starting out making his own living. Ask the person you are arguing with, what right they have to tell my potential employer what to pay me. Take the stand that you are getting in the way of my employment when you tell him to pay me $15/hr. He won’t hire me for that pay, so bug out of my business, goddamn it. It make a stronger argument than you and other might give it credit.

            1. …And the response you will get is that you are being unrealistic and heartless, evil businessmen are deliberately creating inequality through a low minimum wage and that you should be forced, by law, to pay them that amount. If they’re a particularly assholish person, they might as how much profit you make out of your business and go off on how you exploit the labour of these workers and reap the benefits.

              Once again, you assume the moral arguments thrown about are rational and based on individualist principles, when the majority of arguments are Marxist and based on concepts of class warfare.

              1. So do you give up on people that may not have even thought of these arguments? I say no. You may be surprised by the results of making principled arguments. Some people have never heard them. At the very least, you may undermine the moral certainty some liberals think they have with their altruist and rights violating positions, even if they won’t admit they agree with you.

                1. Oh, by all means, make the moral case and undermine the lackluster moral views of your opponents. My overall point is that the majority of people do not share individualist philosophical principles, or any solid philosophical backing whatsoever, so leading with that is the path to failure. Augmenting your arguments is admittedly more likely to work.

                  1. Personally, I always inform them that I paid my 15 year old neighbor to babysit my kid for 5 bucks an hour. I then ask them how long I should rot in jail for that.

        2. Irrational people will openly go up to you, spit in your face, and say that they don’t care about your ‘rights’ because you’re a greedy corporation and PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE A LIVING WAGE!

          You assume that the people arguing for this increase are rational actors. They are not, they are mainly driven by emotion and do not embrace any philosophical concept beyond vague utilitarian principles.

          1. And ‘utilitarian’ in this context means ‘what can I steal from my fellow citizens.’ I don’t really think utilitarian is the proper term, since it isn’t about creating the greater good. It’s about figuring out how you can appropriate as much wealth from other Americans as possible, completely without regard for what harm you might cause.

          2. “You assume that the people arguing for this increase are rational actors. They are not, they are mainly driven by emotion and do not embrace any philosophical concept beyond vague utilitarian principles.”

            Right – my 40 years in business as the owner (retail, importing, construction, etc.) have given me absolutely no insight into the real world….as you have. Please educate us further?

            1. Right, I really believe the pathological liar with the Koch brothers obsession that borders on delusional disorder. Your credibility is non-existent and I could care less what you think.

            2. craiginmass|9.13.14 @ 12:12PM|#
              …”Right – my 40 years in business as the owner (retail, importing, construction, etc.) have given me absolutely no insight into the real world….as you have. Please educate us further?”‘

              Doesn’t pass the sniff test, asshole, unless you simply kept Dad’s bizz going until you ran it into the ground.

              1. “Doesn’t pass the sniff test, asshole, unless you simply kept Dad’s bizz going until you ran it into the ground.”

                Yeah, and Buffet, Gates and Jobs – because they all are liberals or support such causes…they also must have run Dad’s biz into the ground…..

                And, yes, all those progs and libs in Boston and Silicon Valley….creating TRILLIONS in wealth. Must have all worked on daddy’s biz….

                You are funny. I have absolutely no reason to BS about my experience in business. I haven’t worked for anyone (other than very temp) since I’ve been 18 y.o. and never will. I counted the money, made the purchases, decided the selling prices, kept the charts, signed the checks, decided the wages and everything else.

                But marketing is actually my strongest suit. That and technical writing.

                1. craiginmass|9.13.14 @ 5:41PM|#
                  …”But marketing is actually my strongest suit. That and technical writing.”

                  I’d hate to see what you don’t do so well.

                2. “I counted the money, made the purchases, decided the selling prices, kept the charts, signed the checks, ”

                  Kept the charts ?/

                  HaHaHaHaHa ….that;s too funny.

                  Small business owner…keeping the charts…yeah, right.

            3. “my 40 years in business as the owner (retail, importing, construction, etc.) ”

              You certainly seem to be the Renisance Man of the business world. Most people need to at least know the fundamentals of a business to be successful. You must have amazing talents to be so knowledgeable over such a wide variety of business interests.

              Either that or you’re a serial loser who keeps bouncing from failure to failure using someone elses money.

              1. “You must have amazing talents to be so knowledgeable over such a wide variety of business interests.”

                Never learned a thing in school – but Dad was in small biz and he and mom worked their butts off and made it fairly big (relatively – upwardly mobile, I guess).

                I was taught to give clients MUCH MORE than they paid for. I was also lucky enough to be born with a head for numbers and a good memory…and, of course, a fairly pleasant disposition. I don’t know a thing about fancy business plans, formulas, etc….but I am very good at rules of thumb and assessment of risk, etc.

                Like the Jewish merchant said – “I just buy it for a dime, sell it for a dollar and pocket my 10% profit”.

                Some people are good at physics – some at medicine and some at sports. I turned out to be good at making money….but I always did it the hard way…by working. Never made an easy buck in my life.

                Anyway, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it. The only reason I mention it is that I really do know what it’s like to keep the checkbook….really!

                1. craiginmass|9.13.14 @ 5:46PM|#
                  “Never learned a thing in school – but Dad was in small biz and he and mom worked their butts off and made it fairly big (relatively – upwardly mobile, I guess).”

                  And you ran it into the ground.

                2. “I don’t know a thing about fancy business plans, formulas, etc….but I am very good at rules of thumb and assessment of risk, etc.”

                  ut above you say you …”kept the charts”.

                  You’re full of shit craiginmass.

                  So you just open any old kind of business you want without prior knowledge of the industry nor insider knowledge of the finer points of running such a business and being able to compete against those who do ?….yeah, right craiginmass…you’re full of shit.

                  Sp what all kind of business have you owned now ? Retail, construction, you mentioned one other I can’t remember and then you said etc…etc… like there were moe businesses you owned than the ones you mentioned. yeah right.

                  You’re full of shit and your story of being a successful business owner of all these different types of businness is a lie.

                  And you are a liar, plain and simple.

                3. “I don’t know a thing about fancy business plans, formulas, etc….but I am very good at rules of thumb and assessment of risk, etc.”

                  ut above you say you …”kept the charts”.

                  You’re full of shit craiginmass.

                  So you just open any old kind of business you want without prior knowledge of the industry nor insider knowledge of the finer points of running such a business and being able to compete against those who do ?….yeah, right craiginmass…you’re full of shit.

                  Sp what all kind of business have you owned now ? Retail, construction, you mentioned one other I can’t remember and then you said etc…etc… like there were moe businesses you owned than the ones you mentioned. yeah right.

                  You’re full of shit and your story of being a successful business owner of all these different types of businness is a lie.

                  And you are a liar, plain and simple.

                4. “and, of course, a fairly pleasant disposition.”

                  For some reason I seriously doubt this headinass.

                5. You can’t remember when you worked in the South. Good memory my arse.

                  Your disposition is not fairly pleasant. It is fairly masshole typical. Which is not pleasant.

                  1. “Your disposition is not fairly pleasant. It is fairly masshole typical. Which is not pleasant.”

                    Well, being as I’m not from MA, but from the place of brotherly love, that’s interesting! Family is actually from Hazelton, Reading and other coal mining districts, as many of my ancestors were put into indentured servitude for resources extractors (like your Koch financiers) and ended up dying up there.

                    Still, you won’t find me cursing out you guys – instead, I’d rather use logic and reason to sway.

                    1. You don’t have to be FROM mass to be a masshole.

                      I have ancestors from PA coal country and they figured out they didn’t like the future I that so thy moved and took up another vocation. Didn’t need tax money to assist with it.

                      Just out of curiosity, is any coal burned to create electricity for your home?

                    2. Family is actually from Hazelton, Reading and other coal mining districts, as many of my ancestors were put into indentured servitude for resources extractors (like your Koch financiers) and ended up dying up there.

                      So in other words, your forebears set up unions to keep workers employed at high wages, and when the factories started shutting down in the 70s, there wasn’t shit they could do about it.

                      Looks like someone needs to read some Joseph Tainter and learn about the life of complex societies and the limits of scale.

                      Still, you won’t find me cursing out you guys – instead, I’d rather use logic and reason to sway.

                      You’re doing a pretty lousy job, considering you can’t even get basic facts like inflation-adjusted wages correct.

              2. “Either that or you’re a serial loser who keeps bouncing from failure to failure using someone elses money.”

                One more alternative and the most likely.
                Asshole is a liar.

    2. I agree David. Allowing this conversation to become about whether or not there are benefits allows people to overlook the main point. Nobody has a right to tell you or anyone else how to spend their own money. In sure I could find a doctor that could profess the benefits of exercise. It’s another thing entirely to make a law forcing people to exercise.

      1. “Nobody has a right to tell you or anyone else how to spend their own money.”

        Well, this assumes that it’s “your” money.

        Do you really own the land around your house? I’d say no, because if you don’t pay a couple grand in taxes each year, keep it looking nice, avoid debt, etc. you will lose it.

        In short, these simplistic statements mean nothing. “Your money” is just a couple of electronic digits made up by the government of your fine nation – which, luckily for you, has enough resources (based on you paying some of “your” money) to make it worth something.

        It would be a more sane outlook at consider what you KEEP, not what you make That’s “your” money. The rest is the price we pay for civil and advanced society.

        1. Why will I lose it if I don’t pay taxes? My Town does ZERO for my property. Why do I have to keep it looking nice? I don’t have any debt so that comment doesn’t make any sense.

          Are all those missing kids in Mass DCF, some of whom are probably dead or sex slaves the price you pay in Mass for the far superior, intelligent, educated and advanced society?

        2. Fuck off slaver.

          1. Perfect answer.

  7. Good fucking God, CNN.

    In the past few years, as America has degenerated into political and economic chaos, it has become increasingly clear that we would be far better off if we apologized for our revolt against the Crown and requested to rejoin the United Kingdom.

    Next, Britain is a more equitable society. Although America has a higher GDP per capita, most of us — that is, the 99% — are not happy because of our ever-widening wealth gap. Brits have less inequality, and their median incomes (unlike ours) have risen in the past decade.

    Okay, here’s the problem. Britain’s per capita GDP is $37,307 adjusted for PPP. If it were an American state Britain would be the poorest state in the country, behind even Mississippi.

    Not only that, but he seems to think that in the event of a union, America would adopt Britain’s laws, despite the fact that we have 5 times as many people. If there were a Union, Britain would simply become the most populous American state and would come under federal authority.

    But this is CNN. What am I doing criticizing those geniuses.

    1. Brits have better health, less inequality, excellent manners and — let’s face it — a superior culture.

      The cri de coeur of the beta male.

      1. Britain hasn’t had a superior culture since approximately 1910. I’ll grant that British art was superior to American art in 1880, but both countries have changed a bit in the last 150 years.

        I’ll take Cormac McCarthy and Philip Roth over any British novelist of the last 40 years, and American television is in a golden age.

        It’s true that American movies completely suck right now, but I’ve seen a good number of British films, and a whole lot of them aren’t much better. Although This is England is stupendous, as is The Red Riding Trilogy.

        Britain definitely produces good T.V. and films, but I don’t know that I’d argue they’re necessarily any better than what’s coming out of America.

        I also think this CNN writer might be laboring under the opinion that British culture consists primarily of effete intellectuals sitting around sipping tea and discussing Shakespeare, when in fact British youth culture is not a whole lot different from the sort of drinking and fucking culture you’d get on an American college campus.

        1. Britain produces a number of good TV shows… but we only see the good stuff that comes across the pond. Compare those handful of shows to what HBO, FX, Comedy Central and even the networks produce, and it’s laughably imbalanced. I’m sure we’re missing good ‘normal’ shows that are broadcast exclusively in the UK, but c’mon. And a lot of our reality TV starts in Britain.

          And you can’t talk about culture without talking about food. I don’t think the writer wants to start making those comparisons.

          1. The UK film industry also gave us Danny Dyer.

            *Shudder.*

            British comedy comes in two flavors: Dry humor like Monty Python which is generally awesome, and really broad humor which is fucking terrible.

            Back to your point about only the best coming here, that Run for Your Wife movie I linked to was never released over here. Because it was that bad.

            1. Nothing says culture like the video dial-in show of “What’s this rash?” I forget what it’s actually called.

              “Why, Molly, that’s Ebola. We’ll get you hooked up with one of our specialists on the phone to find you a doctor.”

              Yeah, NHS is wonderful. So great that this crap is shown on national TV.

              1. And the Brits have unwashed hair and funky teeth.

                The only teeth worse than a Brits were Soviet Union teeth.

                Gnarly fuckers those were.

                1. And the British are currently over run with Muslims who are soon to destroy all that is good with British culture and society.

        2. But… but… Doctor Who! And BBC! And the NHS! And “sensible gun legislation”! And a Labour party that is actively socialist! Obviously the Brits know what’s up.

      2. Brits have better health, less inequality, excellent manners and — let’s face it — a superior culture.

        U fuckin wot mate?

        1. This is just another variety of the Left’s plaintive whine “we need to be more like Europe”.

          It has nothing to do with manners, or health, or culture. The cocksuckers just want bigger government, higher taxes on people who make more money than they do, gun control, nanny-state regulations, and socialism.

          WRT manners: Ever here of football hooliganism?

          WRT culture: Seriously? Comments above are adequate to debunk that.

          WRT inequality: I’d rather be an American janitor’s son than the king, queen, and jack of England. Seriously, the UK still has a landed gentry, a House of Lords, and a Royal Family. The blather about relative inequality is nonsense. I really don’t give a damn about Gini coefficients; all I care about is whether a young person has opportunity to improve his lot in life through hard work and persistence. Most, if not all, recent expansions and any further expansions of state power are negative toward that end.

          1. The whole concept of “social justice” requires that the state construct barriers to prevent young people from improving their lot in life through hard work and persistence. The end of “social justice” is a uniformly mediocre society.

            1. Not to mention that not one of our immigrant groups, regardless of religion or ethnicity, is even close to being as fucked up as the UK’s Pakistani community (a region which, let’s not forget, they ruled for over 100 years).

              So much for that superior Brit culture — shouldn’t Pakistanis be good little Englishmen by now?

        2. ^this.

          Brits living in america often joke about the American perception of the English as ‘classy’, and with a more refined ‘culture’. They have no idea where it comes from. I told them it was probably “James Bond” mixed with a smattering of english TV progams on PBS, and the occasional glance at BBC news.

          You have only to take a look at the Sun or Daily Mail or other British Tabloid rag to see that they make our cheesiest of Daytime Television/seedy-talk-show culture look like freaking MASTERPIECE THEATER, by contrast.

          Their “white trash”/Chav culture is far more prevalent than ours, and they have just as much if not more racism and FAR more regional tribalism.

          The manners line is funny. They say that about *us*. they think they are painfully rude and classless: a la the original ‘the office’ – that’s how they see themselves.

          1. I think we have always assumed the British accent is classy. Whenever there was a snooty lady in 1930s films, she always had a British accent.

      3. Did we hear groans of exasperation when we accidentally bumped into Brits in Parliament Square while trying to get a better view of Big Ben? Never. Did we see looks of frustration when our cameras accidentally knocked into innocent people in Piccadilly Circus? Not even once.

        Dude, Parliament Square and Piccadilly Circus are thoroughly West End. You were in some of the nicest (and richest) parts of London. What were you expecting? This like thinking that the Upper East Side is representative of all of New York City.

        The country that produced Shakespeare, the world’s best storyteller, has also given us some of the best entertainment and media of modern times.

        In modern times, it has also given us the Spice Girls, Cheryl Cole, One Direction, and Mr. Blobby (a goddamn number one hit in the UK). A serious chunk of British entertainment is basically American pop with a lower budget and worse taste.

        Our imitation of British television (e.g. “The Office”) speaks for itself.

        I watch the American imitation of “Shameless” because the Yank version features numerous shots of Emmy Rossum’s boobies.

        With that said, American TV has produced a lot of good stuff and British TV produces a lot of shitty panel shows.

        Has any band ever topped the Beatles?

        The black Americans that the Beatles and the Stones imitated?

        1. The US has imitated a lot of UK shows, but the UK has imitated a lot of US shows. And there’s a reason why foreign countries instituted quotas on the number of US movies their movie theaters could show.

        2. It’s telling that his arguments are entirely sensory and superficial in nature rather than anything that could be considered quantifiable for sustaining a high-trust community. It’s almost autistic.

    2. “most of us — that is, the 99% — are not happy because of our ever-widening wealth gap”

      I did not know this!
      In fact, I still don’t, since it’s bullshit.

      1. If you’re not unhappy then you must be part of the 1%. QED

    3. CHAOS! America is in utter chaos!

      Unlike the UK, which has been in such great condition for decades. It was especially great before that bitch Thatcher came along.

    4. “Britain’s per capita GDP is $37,307 adjusted for PPP. If it were an American state”

      Misleading! We pay about $4K more per citizen per year for health care – and their is as good or better. They get vastly more vacation days and sick days. Just those two will take that total up to closer to $44K.

      They live in smaller housing – last time I looked, a 4400 square foot McMansion with the A/C on full time does not really equate to quality of life – nor does a car with worse mileage that you drive longer distances in to get to work and play.

      It would take a lot of study to compare the two. But it’s certainly no benefit to me to pay 8.6K per person per year for health care when I received the equiv. of about 1/2 that in real value.

      1. You completely make his point for him and totally miss the irony. That’s really rich. Brit healthcare isn’t actually better at treating disease. Their 5 year survival rates for major cancers are some of the worst in the developed world. They do have rationing of care. As a result of all of this the number of brits with private insurance has been rising monotonically for years. If the NHS is so wonderful, why would they need private insurance?

        More sick days and more vacation days means less income, so you completely failed to hit the mark on that one.

        And yes, a larger house with the A/C on all the time is most definitely worth something otherwise no one would buy it. Hello? I thought you said you knew something about how business worked.

        Without a doubt they are poorer than we are.

        1. “And yes, a larger house with the A/C on all the time is most definitely worth something otherwise no one would buy it. Hello? I thought you said you knew something about how business worked.”

          Actually, you are the one being hypocritical here!

          Need I spell it out to you that the 4440 Sq Ft house with the A/C hardly existed before the falsely low interest rates and the cheating banks who loaned money to people they shouldn’t have? Also, the wars for oil kept the prices of gas in line so Joe could commute 50 minutes to the far burbs for that house…..

          Now that we are getting back to semi-reality, those houses are worth shit. Around here (new england) most buyers simply don’t want them! Many people who have them are underwater from said banksters and the bubble….

          Sorry – I know a lot of people – mostly from down south and the mid-atlantic (SC, NJ) who are stuck in large houses and can’t sell them…..not much value there.

          This “business guy” stayed in the same house for 26+ years even though his income quadrupled. That’s how business works. That’s why Apple always had a cash hoard many times what any other company kept…because when the shit hits the fan and it turns to reverse musical chairs, only a few are left standing.

          I hope that helps. Never live in the means you can afford to and you will enter the kingdom of heaven on earth

          1. Joe from Lowell, is that you?

            1. That also crossed my mind.

          2. “Need I spell it out to you that the 4440 Sq Ft house with the A/C hardly existed before the falsely low interest rates and the cheating banks who loaned money to people they shouldn’t have? Also, the wars for oil kept the prices of gas in line so Joe could commute 50 minutes to the far burbs for that house.”

            I’m sure the lying asshole will somehow blame this collection of factoids on “The Market”!

          3. “Now that we are getting back to semi-reality, those houses are worth shit. Around here (new england) most buyers simply don’t want them! Many people who have them are underwater from said banksters and the bubble….”

            They are selling like hot cakes in Texas…those and all houses of all sizes.

            Must be something in the water up in New Englnd to prevent ther being an active market for houses.

            1. The fantasy that an asshole outsider has any idea what two people might agree upon.

            2. “They are selling like hot cakes in Texas.”

              Well, we know about Texas, where the average per capita energy use is well over 3X what it is in New England….nothing to brag about, since the future will belong to the efficient.

              1. Considering you have New York and New Jersey in New England, I’m calling bullshit on your numbers.

              2. Please stop lumping northern New England in with your bullshit.

          4. $3.60/hr * 4 = $14.40/hr

        2. Why and how do they live longer then? Why is their infant mortality 20% less?

          facts are stubborn things.
          These two stats say is all. Your cherry picking means nothing.

          1. Those numbers are utter horseshit and anyone with half a brain knows there are all manner of factors that affect them.

      2. “last time I looked, a 4400 square foot McMansion with the A/C on full time does not really equate to quality of life”

        The fuck it doesn’t.

        I’m gonna hazard a guess here: Junior college, and didn’t finish?

        1. I wonder how Craiginmass defines quality of life. Somehow I imagine he thinks the highest quality of life would involve living in a cramped hovel constructed by the state as you are periodically supplied with condoms, bread, and a monthly aspirin ration.

          Yeah, what sort of moron would think a large amount of living space, climate control, and vast amounts of cheap food would be in any way correlated with quality of life? It’s just crazy talk!

          1. When you add in the Craig factor, Cuba has the highest GDP in the world!

          2. Irish|9.13.14 @ 12:41PM|#
            “I wonder how Craiginmass defines quality of life. Somehow I imagine he thinks the highest quality of life would involve living in a cramped hovel constructed by the state as you are periodically supplied with condoms, bread, and a monthly aspirin ration.”

            I doubt it. the lying asshole is likely well off, likely on ol’ dad’s work. Logic was never required and craig has never bothered to learn it.
            But the FEEELZ! craig’s got that covered.

          3. Craig grostulates over the prospect of forced council housing in the US.

        2. “I’m gonna hazard a guess here: Junior college, and didn’t finish?”

          Why would I go to college? I’m more a Peter Thiel type of guy….

          http://valleywag.gawker.com/pe…..-498525048

          1. But you espoused the virtues of an educated Massachusetts populace. And you aren’t even part of it? Bask in reflected glory…

            1. “Bask in reflected glory…”

              Sure….I’d rather hang around with MIT dudes than the Cable Guy.

              Is that a bad thing?

              1. Hanging out with MIT “dudes” doesn’t make you smart. It makes you pretentious.

                The only cable guy I know lives down the road somewhere and he tailgates. I only knew two MIT graduates: one is pretty cool and the other is an idiot that is employed at EPA headquarters. So that’s really a push.

          2. So, Junior High, didn’t finish?

      3. They live in smaller housing – last time I looked, a 4400 square foot McMansion with the A/C on full time does not really equate to quality of life

        If the average American lived in a domicile that large, you might have a point. Since that’s not the case, you’re simply a hysterical shitlib.

        1. Many states in the US have energy use per capita which is 3-4X that of a European. So whether they use that in their pickup truck (empty most of the time) or their house or their A/C, they are using more…and not getting the results for all of it.

          As even old RFK said – GDP includes the cost of Ambulances cleaning up the carnage on our roads and the cost of the War Machines, etc.

          Surely you understand that?

          But don’t think I’m pimping for the Brits! Heck, they are who we patterned after and both countries were built on forms of colonialism, slavery and indentured servitude, etc.

          Now that they ran our of “other people’s life force and resources” they must come to terms. And so must we.

          1. craiginmass|9.13.14 @ 5:58PM|#
            …”and not getting the results for all of it.”

            Slimy asshole presumes to judge what other people favor! Surprise!
            And of course, the same slimy asshole ‘doesn’t like authoritarianism’, except I’m sure he’s more than willing to use it to enforce his religion.

          2. The only thing I got out of your word salad is, “I made up an arbitrary figure because I didn’t have real-world data to back up my claims.”

      4. “We pay about $4K more per citizen per year for health care.”

        If you don’t work in America, you pretty much pay nothing into the healthcare.

        If you work, then you mostly pay into the medicare system. Meanwhile you pay way less for gas and cost of living. We’re one of the few developed countries in which citizens (effectively) pay no separate taxes for certain services.

        I haven’t met anyone who thinks cost of living in GBR is cheaper than the United States (especially flyover sections).

        1. “If you don’t work in America, you pretty much pay nothing into the healthcare.”

          Fantastic. This is great news.

          The total spent on healthcare in the USA is about 2.7 Trillion per year. Dividing the number of citizens into this means close to 9K per person per year.

          Please educate us on where this money comes from…if not from each of us?

          IMHO, it is built into everything….just like some here are crying the min. wage would be. The difference is that our health care system is built around rewarding predatory behavior and pricing. Theirs is not.

          1. craiginmass|9.13.14 @ 6:00PM|#
            “If you don’t work in America, you pretty much pay nothing into the healthcare.”
            “The total spent on healthcare in the USA is about 2.7 Trillion per year. Dividing the number of citizens into this means close to 9K per person per year.”

            Which is totally irrelevant, as and grammar-school kid could tell you.
            It takes a certain stupidity to be a lefty, asshole.

          2. The total spent on healthcare in the USA is about 2.7 Trillion per year.

            $1.13 trillion of that is from Medicare and Medicaid–so what are you crying about?

            1. “$1.13 trillion of that is from Medicare and Medicaid–so what are you crying about?”

              I’m crying that guys like your hero Rick Scott commit vast frauds against our Medicare systems and then get rewarded by you with your votes.

              Luckily, we are now closing up some of those loopholes those traitors and frauds used to steal our money.

              But as to taking care of your granny and sick people….I have no problem with that. None.

              1. I’m crying that guys like your hero Rick Scott commit vast frauds against our Medicare systems and then get rewarded by you with your votes

                My hero Rick Scott? I don’t even live in Florida. Typical shitlib hysteria.

                Hey, you wanted a middle-man between the doctor and the patient when it came time to pay the bill. Now it’s damn near impossible to even get a list of the cost of services at check-out time, much less before we even visit the clinic or hospital.

                But as to taking care of your granny and sick people….I have no problem with that. None.

                And we’ve gotten exponentially increasing healthcare costs as a result of that. A normal live birth and two days in a private room in a California hospital in the mid-50s cost $1,000, inflation adjusted. Now it costs $10,000. healthcare costs for the government now run over $1 trillion a year, and you’re alternately arguing that we’re spending too much and that we’re not covering enough people to spend it on. No wonder you cry about the Kochs in that special Rainman way of yours.

                So make up your mind, loser–do you want everyone to have all their healthcare needs met, or do you want cheap healthcare?

    5. Brits have better health

      NHS sucks.

      less inequality

      Translation: poorer.

      excellent manners

      Brits I’ve met come primarily in two varieties:

      Chavs, boorish, violent, racist scum who make the worst of our redneck/hillbilly culture look positively brilliant by comparison and are the largest plurality, if not majority of Brits, and;

      Toffs, who are condescending, obnoxious pricks.

      a superior culture

      Said nobody who has either watched unfiltered British television, listened to British pop music in the last, oh, 25 years, or watched any British films that didn’t screen in the US.

      The “low culture” morass that is reality TV is almost entirely a creation of Britain, and nearly all American reality shows are direct copies of British shows. People who believe that British TV is high culture have likely only experienced it through PBS Masterpiece Theater.

      I’ve noticed that just about anyone who can afford private health insurance buys it

      That’s an interesting observation, and it would tell anyone who isn’t an idiot that the NHS standard stinks and is basically the equivalent of Medicaid/Medicare.

      Living a good life — owning a house and a car and being able to support a family — seems like a struggle, especially when compared with your parents’ generation.

      Try doing those things in Britain, now.

  8. “Doctors Say Arizona Prisons Mocked Sick Inmates, Left Stroke Victims in Soiled Diapers for Weeks…

    “One sick inmate said he fell and was left on the floor for three to five hours. “I would just like to feel safe and not fall. That’s all,” he told one of the visiting doctors.”

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/e…..z3DD7VVfX0

  9. There’s an additional utilitarian argument:
    Every free transaction adds to human prosperity in that both parties value what they got more than what they gave; hence the positive-sum nature of an economy under free-market conditions.
    By contrast, every coerced transaction, regardless of intent or amount, costs humanity value since at least one party is receiving less than what is given, by definition.
    It is not only the bad decisions as a result of the knowledge problem that results in rotten conditions for planned economies, it is an inherent feature of them.

    1. You mean…preventing mutually beneficial trade (which works because of subjective marginal value) hurts the economy by preventing specialization and the accumulation of capital?

      Someone get this news to Obama via carrier pigeon right away! I’m sure he’ll see the voluntarism light and join us in advocating peaceful, mutually beneficial transactions.

      1. Just send a letter to the editor at the NYTimes.

        That is where he claims to get his news ya know.

    2. But you wouldn’t consider indentured servitude a form of coercion if it didn’t involve the US federal government.

      Clarify your terms. There is such thing as coercion in the free market. There is such a thing as government that ameliorates coercion.

      And stop trying to make economic data out of philosophical axioms.

      1. What “coercion” is there in the free market Tony?

        1. I’m waiting for the answer, too! I’ll bet it has to do with wedding cakes and a logical impossibility.

        2. Buy comcast or do without cable. Or, for a more lighthearted example, employ your child in our factory or starve to death. No, there’s nothing coercive there. Just supply and demand. Which somehow, by some unfathomable crisscross of mental wiring, you literally equate with the highest moral summit of humanity.

          Maybe it takes coercion to eliminate a worse form of coercion. Maybe the world isn’t made of rainbows and lollipops. Not to blow your mind or anything.

          1. Buy comcast or do without cable.

            I get DSL.

            1. Buy comcast or do without cable.

              I have satellite.

              But yeah Chony, the FCC totally has absolutely nothing at all to do with local service provider monopolies, nothing at all.

              Jeebus you’re a fucking idiot.

      2. Tony|9.13.14 @ 5:56PM|#
        “And stop trying to make economic data out of philosophical axioms.”

        This from an econ ignoramus who keeps adding 2 and 2 and getting 5. And then 3. And then 6-3/4.
        Buzz off, idjit.

    3. Is that the sort of thing they teach at the Ayn Rand Institute these days? I’d say demand a refund, but these types of cult groups tend to be pretty squirrelly about their finances.

      1. american socialist|9.13.14 @ 7:14PM|#
        “Is that the sort of thing they teach at the Ayn Rand Institute these days?”

        I don’t know, parasite. You seem quite interested; why don’t you lie about that subject for a while?

  10. Nancy Pelosi said some crazy shit last night.

      1. Pelosi thinks dead feminist icons talk to her. If this was Crusader Kings she’d have the Lunatic, Greedy, Proud and Cruel traits.

        1. If this was Crusader Kings II, she’d have been assassinated by one of her courtiers well before reaching 74 years…

    1. I hear grass is green too

      1. Not on Jesse’s lawn.

        1. Some of it is, just not very much.

          A sort of pale grey-green, but on the green spectrum.

    2. “Fear is a motivator, and we are not fear-mongers. The Democrats are messengers of hope, and that’s what we will continue to be.”

      “So how do they know what’s going on in the heartland of America?”

      Thanks, that really brightened up my morning.

    3. Who’s crazier, Nancy Pelosi or Peter King?

      1. Probably King. But Pelosi takes the evil category.

        1. Really? Because King’s always babbling about Islamic terrorism but sent money to the IRA.

          That’s pretty evil.

          1. I’m biased. I know very little about King. But Pelosi is in the paper here all the time. It’s a fucking embarrassment.

        2. Peter King and Nancy Pelosi are both 99.8% pure evil.

  11. The Bureau of Labor Statistics regularly asks employers the reason behind layoffs. Those attributed to “government regulations/intervention” are routinely less than 0.5 percent of the total.

    Ah. Well, then.

    This conclusively proves government regulation has no discernible effect on the economy.

  12. Libertarians rejoice! In victory for property rights, the Catholic Church recovers stolen property possessed by Satanic group.

    The Satanists had proposed to use consecrated Hosts in a ceremony in a public building. In a lawsuit, Catholic authorities said that “If the unauthorized individual has possession of a consecrated host, it must have been procured, either by that person or by another, by illicit means: by theft, fraud, wrongful taking, or another form of misappropriation.”

    The Satanists surrendered: “A lawyer for the Archdiocese confirmed that [Satanic leader Adam] Daniel’s attorney had surrendered the wafers to Church officials in the afternoon.”

    (from Vice news)

    http://bit.ly/1qx0bwK

    Supporters of property rights everywhere rejoice!

    1. I was going to not care but it turns out the Satanist organizer is an abusive ex prison guard:

      Daniels said that the charges stemmed from “inappropriate touching” of an inmate that took place while he was serving as a guard at a correctional center in McLoud, Oklahoma.

      So fuck him.

    2. the Catholic Church recovers stolen property possessed by Satanic group.
      So when is the exorcism?

  13. In the past few years, as America has degenerated into political and economic chaos

    What the fucking fuck?

    1. Yeah, Britain’s the symbol of order given their ongoing secession crisis, the Rotherham rape scandal, and the 1000 British Muslims currently fighting for ISIS.

      1. Oh, and that little thing going on with Scotland at the moment.

        1. Derp, I see you mentioned that first. :/more coffee

          That was the first thing I thought of when I read this. How deluded do you have to be to sing the harmonious praises of a country that is about to have one of it’s core pieces vote to become independent?

    2. Time for Directive 10-289. It’s going to happen.

    3. In the past few years, as America has degenerated into political and economic chaos

      And some people say the Republicans are Obama’s biggest critics.

  14. a 4400 square foot McMansion with the A/C on full time does not really equate to quality of life

    Oh, NOOOOOO!

    Teh dreaded McMansion scourge. You dopes just don’t know what’s good for you.

    1. Seriously. I’ve got a buddy from Angola who is absolutely disgusted with the whining of Westerners. He literally bust out laughing when I showed him this meme that was floating around Facebook. His response?

      Paraphrased: “You people have no fucking idea what poverty is, if you have the electricity to post that damn thing you don’t live in poverty.”

      1. Human beings lived on about $3 a day until 1800. French and English kings walked around castles that smelled like shit and piss, and when they wanted to go somewhere they had to ride in a carriage behind a shit-and-piss machine while staring out a glass window that obscured virtually every detail. The peasants didn’t have it so good.

        It doesn’t matter how wealthy humanity becomes. Envy will always, always be the driving force of a huge part of the political world.

  15. “raising the minimum wage is simply a terrible way to help the poor.”

    This assumes the purpose of doing it is to “help” anyone, rather than for Big Democrat to simply flex its muscles and demonstrate a little FYTW-prowess encouraging businesses reliant on lower minimum wages to pony up and donate more to the party and its people.

    Why do reason writers incessantly continue to take ‘progressive politics’ at face value after a lifetime or more of it being repeatedly demonstrated that its NEVER about the “Cause” (be it racism, gender/sexual issues, the environment, or whatever) and its all about the POWER AND LEVERAGE that pandering to this issue allows them to gain, through weaseling in deeper to bureaucracies and installing ever-deepening layers of CONTROL mechanisms to either bribe or punish people.

    I think the recent post re: “sex crimes @ Ohio State U” was a shining example of this. No one’s happy just ‘preventing sexual abuse’- no, its not about that. Its about criminalizing any behavior by default (“you were both drunk? then you both RAPED each other!”), then granting the various ‘committees and departments’ powers to document, scrutinize, evaluate, report, punish and CONTROL.

    1. Why do reason writers incessantly continue to take ‘progressive politics’ at face value after a lifetime or more of it being repeatedly demonstrated that its NEVER about the “Cause”

      I understand that frustration, and feel it sometimes myself, but if Reason is going to prosthelytize among the liberals then there is probably utility to engaging with multiple approaches.

      Popping the “it’s better” bubble can be a good way to get people to stop sloganeering for a few minutes and listen to what you have to say. If you can take the air out of the moral superiority there’s a (exceedingly slim) chance that an individual might stop and wonder what was really going on. An effect of the old saw “You can’t reason a person out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.”

      For others first principles arguments might be the place to start, but I submit that is a smaller percentage of the liberal faithful by a significant margin.

      Eventually both arguments are needed to fully convert a liberal to the libertarian dark side and have their place. I’d like to see a little more fusion of the two here sometimes, but then, I’m not a prog, so I’m at a very different place mentally when reading an article like this.

      1. I get the idea that you have to ‘unsell them’ on the theoretical ‘benefits’ to their control system

        (which rather than ‘helping’ anyone – like welfare, foreign aid, etc) – tends to create systemic dependence and increases overall poverty while also creating a endlessly-expanding bureaucratic monster)

        …sure.

        I take this tack with Greens who think “Electric cars” are a positive step forward. I keep pointing out the electricity-grid is a terribly inefficient delivery system to power ‘moving vehicles’ by DEFINITION. How do you ‘refill’ in remote areas without expanding transmission lines, building more power plants, increasing the output tenfold, requiring loads more carbon-emitting coal etc.? Don’t get me started on the batteries…

        But when it comes to these ‘older’ systems – minimum wage, so.soc, medicaid, welfare, etc – i simply point at the Established Facts rather than some ‘projected unintended consequences’…

        I’m not sure progs understand the systemic, control-system components of their political theories. (*”Make Daddy Do It!”) They disown the consequences of their own laws and pretend that these Bureaucracies have nothing to do with their “good intentions”. I think that part needs to be emphasized constantly until they understand that THEY are the ‘bad guys’ in the movie ‘Brazil’. They are the Police State: not ‘the corporations’.

        Because when this “good intended policy” fails yet again? They’ll just think they *weren’t trying hard enough*

        1. “I take this tack with Greens who think “Electric cars” are a positive step forward.”

          So you would begrudge me my profits for buying Tesla when it was $25 a share?

          I thought you were staunch capitalists?

          You guys are stale. You’ll still be grumping about electric cars and solar panels and wind machines when we are all driving around in Teslas (driverless versions – in 5-10 years).

          If our quest for efficiency is “good intentions gone bad”, you are ass-backwards. I guess it’s what happens when you bow down to Oil and Resource extraction leaders.

          1. craiginmass|9.13.14 @ 7:05PM|#
            “So you would begrudge me my profits for buying Tesla when it was $25 a share?
            I thought you were staunch capitalists?”

            Asshole, Tesla is a gov’t financial instrument dealer, trading my taxes for your profits, so yes, I begrudge you that. It makes you a parasite, which is no great surprise.
            ———————-
            “You guys are stale.”

            You’re fucking boring. The same tired lies we’ve heard from one imbecile after the other.
            ———————
            “If our quest for efficiency is “good intentions gone bad”, you are ass-backwards. I guess it’s what happens when you bow down to Oil and Resource extraction leaders.”

            I guess when you keep repeating lies, you end up with stupid ‘conclusions’, asshole.

            1. “Tesla is a gov’t financial instrument dealer”

              Ah, so you can’t do math either?

              Please tell us, dear friend, exactly how much money the US Gubment has given Tesla compared to their market capitalization PLUS their sales and other economic activity – PLUS, the likely 100’s of billions of future economic activity.

              I suppose next you will regret your computer and GPS because, after all, Big Gubment helped those along too.

              “Tesla Motors announced Wednesday that it has repaid a $465 million loan from the government nearly a decade before it was scheduled to do .”
              WITH INTEREST….

              As you well know, many states – especially those Libertarian Paradises down South and TX, offer BILLIONS in tax breaks and other incentives to corporations….

              But you have a hard-on for Tesla?

              Wow. It sounds like you made your mind up long ago and simply bend the facts to fit. In 20 years when Tesla is worth a trillion dollars and creates massive economic activity as well as cleaner air, you’ll still be talking to yourself.

              One of the keys to enlightenment is being able to see when you are wrong. Or, at least accept that your conservative views are just a quirk and not really how the rest of the world works. Even that would be fine.

              1. craiginmass|9.13.14 @ 8:32PM|#
                “Tesla is a gov’t financial instrument dealer”
                “Ah, so you can’t do math either?
                Please tell us, dear friend, exactly how much money the US Gubment has given Tesla compared to their market capitalization PLUS their sales and other economic activity – PLUS, the likely 100’s of billions of future economic activity.”

                Please tell us, dear asshole, how much Tesla made from their automobile sideline compared to the government instruments they traded.
                You not only can’t do math asshole, you’re an all ’round ignoramus.
                —————–
                “One of the keys to enlightenment is being able to see when you are wrong. Or, at least accept that your conservative views are just a quirk and not really how the rest of the world works. Even that would be fine.”

                Yes, asshole, you would do well to take your advise, especially given how wonderful the lefty workers’ paradises have turned out.
                Tell us, oh asshole, of the wonders of, say Cuba and Venezuela! I’m waiting to hear.

              2. Ah, so you can’t do math either?

                That’s rich coming from someone who couldn’t adjust the minimum wage for inflation.

          2. Hmm, Gilmore didn’t say anything about tesla or it’s stock in that post you replied to. Guess that’s par for the course in your idiocy crusade.

            1. Uh, Not Another Skippy has been really honest (read ‘hell on wheels’) about the slimy rent seekers at Tesla.
              Not sure I’ve seen GILMORE involved in the calling of the bullshit.
              Regardless, craig is, as always a lying parasite and an ignoramus besides.

    2. Yay! More people are catching on, even if Reason writers aren’t.

      The Progressive Theocracy wants power because it wants power. Never mistake their rationalizations for their motivations.

  16. “raising the minimum wage is simply a terrible way to help the poor.”

    If they really wanted to help the poor, our leftward leaning friends would be battling tooth and nail against legal trends such as the ongoing criminalization of casual labor for cash, and the wholesale destruction of traditional forms of truly affordable housing.

    Until then, I will continue to assume they couldn’t give a fuck less about teh POORZ.

  17. Hi Eli, the data is mixed and there are meta- studies out there that uphold the null hypothesis. Since the picture shows a person with an empty valley did me. Neubar’s study include the individual and macro- effects of a retained minimum wage employee who suddenly is now making a whole lot more money?

    I love the arguments of the inflationary crowd who think that adding a pittance to the slightly larger pittance that minimum wage earners currently make is going to be inflationary. Nah, that’s what these ridiculous salaries that we pay CEOs is going to do.

    1. Now without Steve jobs infernal free market phone editing function… I do most of my typing on a 3″x 4″ screen so my apologies.

      Hi Eli, the data is mixed and there are meta- studies out there that uphold the null hypothesis. Since the picture shows a person with an empty wallet, did mr. Neubar’s study include the individual and macro- effects of a retained minimum wage employee. The one that is suddenly making a whole lot more money?

      I love the arguments of the inflationary crowd who think that adding a pittance to the slightly larger pittance that minimum wage earners currently make is going to be inflationary. Nah, that’s what these ridiculous salaries that we pay CEOs is going to do.

      1. “I love the arguments of the inflationary crowd who think that adding a pittance to the slightly larger pittance that minimum wage earners currently make is going to be inflationary.

        Comments like this let you fully realize that socialists beyond have no understanding of basic econ, but are incapable of even basic math. You can spread the CEO of McDonalds salary amongst all its employees and it will give them MAYBE an extra cent per hour. But we should eliminate their “unjust” salaries anyway because equality! Granted no one remotley qualified to do the CEOs job will take it and the company will fall apart and all those poor employees will not have a job, but equality dammit, EQUALITY!!!11!

      2. Somehow this is even more retarded than the version with typos. Didn’t think it was possible, but there ya go.

      3. american socialist|9.13.14 @ 1:08PM|#
        …”the data is mixed”…
        Only if you ignore reality.

        …”and there are meta- studies out there that uphold the null hypothesis.”…
        Only if you carefully pick those cherries.
        The problem, parasite, is your presumption that money just magically shows up without one change in productivity.
        IOWs, you’re full of shit.

        1. pick those cherries.

          Is that like when you cite a paper from NBER?

          1. american socialist|9.13.14 @ 7:16PM|#
            “pick those cherries.
            Is that like when you cite a paper from NBER?”

            You seem to have missed the message: You’re full of shit.
            2+2=4 no matter how many ‘papers’ claim otherwise.

    2. american socialist:

      Since the picture shows a person with an empty valley did me.

      Sounds kinky, if that’s your thing.

      I love the arguments of the inflationary crowd who think that adding a pittance to the slightly larger pittance that minimum wage earners currently make is going to be inflationary.

      I love the arguments from the socialist crowd who think that adding a pittance to the minimum wage is the equivalent of lifting people out of poverty.

      Or, the idea that meta-studies of pitiful minimum wage changes, followed by no measurable effect on unemployment, implies that minimum wages and unemployment must be completely independent.

      It’s like doing meta-studies of studies showing that a minuscule change to caloric intake produces no measurable effect on body weight as measured by mechanical scales, and then, coming to the sweeping conclusion that caloric intake and body weight must be totally independent. Because, we did tons of meta-studies showing that a person eating one more saltine cracker a week didn’t gain any weight! How could we not make grand conclusions from such studies? Let’s deem all that fundamental research invalid, because it’s just not complicated enough. You know, like how we know that labor is immune to all market effects, by magic.

      Yeah, if you’re an idiot.

  18. Run that pidgin English jibberjabber through the translator again, AmSoc.

  19. I just post this , Reason mag, to show what these slimy communists in the Department of Labor are up to. The only economic papers I trust are right-wing ones from CATO and Freedomworks

    http://www.dol.gov/minwage/mythbuster.htm

    I remain your faithful libertarian always,

    American Socialist

    1. “I remain your supporter of mass murder always,”
      Fixed, slimebag.

      1. Did you notice that there is a “Was this helpful?” button at the top right of the page? I said no.

        1. Ya know, given commie-kid’s history of being a lying POS, I didn’t even bother to click on it. Now I did.
          That pathetic excuse for a moral agent cites a government site as PROOF that government coercion is a wonderful thing!
          Commie-kid, get fucked with government-supplied rusty chunks of iron.
          Or, maybe, learn to think…

          1. It’s even worse than that. Not only is that a government source, many of its points are just regurgitated from various left-wing think-tanks. It’s basically just the DOL slapping a “the government said this so it’s true” seal of approval onto some one-sided talking points.

            http://mediatrackers.org/wisco…..nimum-wage

            1. “one-sided talking points.”

              And commie-kid laps it up!
              Hey, how does Obo’s shit taste when you lick his ass, commie-kid? You’ve got to be an authority on that matter by now!

            2. Hi Walter,

              If by left-wing groups you mean published research in academic journals than I agree. The link you sent is from a known right wing group run by a James o’keefe wannabe

              http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title

              Also check out http://www.motherjones.com/pol…..dark-money and see if you should regularly post articles from this biased right-wing site staffed by Republican staffers.

              1. If by left-wing groups you mean published research in academic journals than I agree.

                This coming from the same idiot who didn’t know who was counted in the labor force participation rate.

              2. If it takes a right-wing site to explain where the DOL is getting its data then so be it.

                It’s not my fault they were too dishonest to site a single source for any of their data.

              3. Dude, the department of labor is run by the president’s cabinet. It’s run by Obama’s secretary of labor. As such, all of these articles just reflect the desired democratic talking points, stamped with government approval, so morons will think it’s some form of government-certified truth.

                You might as well cite an HHS website that explains how awesome Obamacare is, as directed by Kathleen Sebelius.

  20. The minimum wage is not intended to help the poor; if you want to help the poor in this present system, you just cut benefits from a wealthy group (*cough* old people) and give it to those who need it more. And then enjoy your new job when elderly voters kick you out of office.

    The sole purpose of a minimum wage is to help whichever party that would benefit most from higher unemployment and more people forced onto welfare. Every economist and every educated politician knows this, but nary a one will ever admit it.

  21. I was reading somewhere that many public employee union contracts have wages indexed to the minimum wage. If so, I’d say that’s your real set of beneficiaries, right there.

    1. Bingo.

    2. It also secures them more gigs. Drive the price of unskilled labor high enough and employers can only afford three laborers for the price of a skilled union worker rather than four or five.

    3. Good point. That’s a very effective mechanism.

    4. ChrisO|9.13.14 @ 1:19PM|#
      “I was reading somewhere that many public employee union contracts have wages indexed to the minimum wage. If so, I’d say that’s your real set of beneficiaries, right there.”

      You mean the SEIU thugs at Micky Ds really don’t give a shit about the burger flippers?! Naaah!
      “One example is a series of CBAs signed with the Union of Needletrades, Industrial and Textile Employees (UNITE). Their contracts mandated that “(w)henever the federal legal minimum wage is increased, minimum wage (in the agreement) shall be increased so that each will be at least fifteen (15%) percent higher than such legal minimum wage.”
      There’s also an SEIU local’s contract, which ordered that “(t)he minimum hourly wage rates shall exceed any statutory applicable minimum wage rate by 50 cents.”
      Some unions have also arranged contracts where the employer must renegotiate their contracts in case of a minimum-wage hike, no matter how long is left on the pact’s life span.
      The possibility for abuse here is staggering: Unions with average wages well above the minimum wage can insert such clauses into their contracts, forcing negotiations in industries not otherwise affected by a wage hike.”
      http://news.investors.com/ibd-…..on-pay.htm

  22. my friend’s mother makes $72 hourly on the computer . She has been without a job for five months but last month her check was $14120 just working on the computer for a few hours. website here ….

    ============= http://www.jobsaa.com

    1. Is your friend’s mother actually craiginmass?

  23. Believable? If I were a BK or McD franchisee, I might consider one of these as a response to a high minimum wage.

    http://www.gizmag.com/hamburger-machine/25159/

    The company claims that its machine will pay for itself in less than a year.

    1. “Burger flippers? We don’t need no stinking burger flippers!”

    2. If that machine doesn’t there will quickly be one that does.
      Regardless of lefty econ cherry-picking and general fantasies, no successful employer pays more than is necessary to satisfy the customer.

  24. Trying to find the authority granted to Congress to mandate the details of an employment contract.

    Not having much luck.

  25. To the poor: Your job sucks, so now it’s illegal. Done. You can thank us at your leisure.

    People should earn a “living wage” even if they just stand and wait until the light comes on, then push a button. Besides, it’s not our money, it’s the evil robber barons, hoarding all that cash they “took” from their customers. It’s OUR money! We want to use it to give the least skilled workers a raise, and that’s our prerogative, because this money is part of “our” economy. We’ll spend it as we please.

  26. Never in history has Marxist policy increased the standard of living for a nation. As a matter of fact it has greatly reduced it?every single time. So Mr. Progressive, begin your tirade?history still says you’re a lunatic to believe somehow, this time Marxist policy will be successful.

    And the next anti reason statement from the Progressive will be that Obama is not a Marxist. Feel free to look up the definition of Marxism. From each according to ability?to each according to need. Demanding businesses follow this proposed policy or that one for the “inequality” of pay on whatever victim they choose for that week.

    Marxism. Exactly the above. And with continued implementation we will continue to plummet. As it was once said: “Eventually you run out of other peoples’ money.” Obama’s entire agenda was to take from the producer and give to the non producer. That’s what he has done since day one. And we have an entire youth that is fine with it?as long as they have enough for a shack and bottle of vodka. And pretty soon the rest of us will look like Russia as well.

    I predict total economic collapse in my fiction followed by tyranny. Not because I’m a sage, but because I based my work on this wonderful professor known as History. And the thing with this lecturer is he tends to repeat himself on the podium.

    Charles Hurst. Author of THE SECOND FALL. An offbeat story of Armageddon. And creator of THE RUNNINGWOLF EZINE

    1. “Never in history has Marxist policy increased the standard of living for a nation. As a matter of fact it has greatly reduced it?every single time”

      One has to love this shit! It’s so creative….
      in other news, never has the ability to make a bunch of advanced weapons and send your men to use them failed to bring home resources, slaves and benefits to SOME parts of society.

      Based on the brilliant statements above, the Fiction Writer looks to be the Lord God when she indicates genocide against those less civilized is fine and dandy.

      This seems FAR away from that “no force” things I thought libertarians hung their hat on.

      You guys are funny……

      Marx was a writer and philosopher. He no more specified what “Marxist societies” were than the Kochs and Walton’s spec’ed your libertarian paradise.

      I suppose modern China, where authoritarianism and one party control created standards improvements unmatched IN ALL HISTORY, must be the libertarian ideal?

      That’s no joke. I’m afraid that’s what they want….with the exception that I think China probably cares more about it’s people than the Koch’s would…

      1. craiginmass|9.13.14 @ 8:09PM|#
        “Never in history has Marxist policy increased the standard of living for a nation. As a matter of fact it has greatly reduced it?every single time”
        “One has to love this shit! It’s so creative….
        in other news, never has the ability to make a bunch of advanced weapons and send your men to use them failed to bring home resources, slaves and benefits to SOME parts of society.”

        I’m sure some grammar school student would find some connection in the asshole’s comparison.

      2. How many millions did Mao murder in his purges? And that somehow equivocates to businessmen wanting to keep the government out of their transactions and bank accounts? I hope your post was sarcasm.

        What is the Koch Brothers equivalent to Tieneman Square?

        1. “What is the Koch Brothers equivalent to Tieneman Square?”

          Well, I’d say their releases of pollution DEFINITELY kill and maim many more people than that event

          They are among the worst polluters in the USA. I won’t take the time to look up the prevalence of respiratory diseases and cancers caused by such pollution, but we know they run into the 100’s of thousands per year. And we know the Kochs spend billion trying to kill MORE people (reduce regulation of their pollution).

          At the same time, falling back on Mao and Stalin is a pretty weak defense. I don’t remember quoting or looking up to either. It’s the Koch’s who made their money building infrastructure for Uncle Joe (look it up).

          1. You talked up how great China is (standards improvements). Like four posts above. That is how YOU brought China into it. It was just a few posts above. I thought you had a great memory?

            And regarding China’s progress, how is their environmental record?

            What is the carbon footprint of running a Tesla motors car from coal? How much PM10 is necessary to charge the car (in units of lbs/mile)? Given that you PROFIT from this occurring, you are doing EXACTLY what you are purporting the Kochs do.

            Please provide citations. Not generic crap but ones that support your actual numbers.

            1. Unlike many here, I have a fair grasp of the curves at work in the energy sector. That is, I have sold and installed solar since 1979 and another of my industries involved renewables.

              Let’s take the great state where Tesla is made – where coal represents only 7% (and headed down fast) of electricity generation.

              PG&E uses 1% coal.

              And so, providing other numbers is going to be a big waste since your “facts” are built on total BS. By the time Tesla’s are in most garages, coal will be largely gone from the energy picture in the states where people are prospering….

              Talk about an exaggeration – now we can see why the Kochs are so scared. They watch that curve and shudder.

              One would think educated people understand the efficiency of IC engines…those being incredibly low (maybe 30%) – and that’s only when you don’t figure the Koch pollution being generated, the wars, the pollution output, the complexity and other factors.

              Luckily for us, Elon Musk gets it. You’d do wise to listen to him. His mind is not stale.

              1. Don’t want to do the math because that would open your eyes to facts and not your BS emotional arguments? Coal is the #1 fuel for electricity production in this country. Renewables are fourth. This is today. You are profiting from Tesla today. This is germane because these are facts. Please spell out specificity which facts are BS. Or do you not own shares in Tesla?

                Regarding California, your number for coal is half the published number. They rely primarily on natural gas. Then nuclear. Then coal. Then renewables. Their 2020 target for renewables is only one third. This is the target. Most of their electricity production is burning fossil fuels.

                Please explain “the complexity and other factors.”

                And finally, you forgot to address your praising China while ignoring the murder of tens of millions in political purges.

                1. “You are profiting from Tesla today. This is germane because these are facts”

                  No, those are conservative world views, not facts.

                  You see, conservatives don’t know which way the wind is blowing – instead trying to hang on to some construct of how they think it blew long ago.

                  EVERY business venture is forward looking. What the heck do you think – that electric car companies are going to start up and deliver advanced models in 1-5 years AFTER all the electric is cleaner? It won’t happen – it will take at least 15-20 years for Tesla to go from concept to mass manufacturer.

                  It’s amazing how myopic you folks are. Luckily, others aren’t.

                  As to China, none of these so-called “murder of tens of millions” have occurred since they decided to fully industrialize. None. I think the last biggie was a couple thousand on religious grounds. Of course, let’s not talk about the country which has the largest % of it’s population incarcerated, etc…..or who tortures people all over the world as well as kills them in horrific ways (using red-hot metal usually).

                  1. You either made money on Tesla or you didn’t. That’s an easy math problem. Third grade math.

                    The FACT that coal is #1 in the country for electricity production and renewables are #4 is somehow not a fact because it doesn’t fit your paradigm?

                    When renewables provide 100% of the electricity you can then say the power is emission free. Until then, they are like a little coal plant. They are delivering cars now. And those cars are polluting via their source of electricity.

                    So it’s ok that the same government in China murdered tens of millions because they then went full industrialization? Non sequitur.

                    Regarding incarceration (mostly for victimless crimes) an torture of enemies, are you fucking serious? Libertarians vehemently oppose both. And both brought to you by the top men of our federal government. Or is this a conservative world view and not a fact?

                    And just a couple thousand on religious grounds? Craig, your posts trend towards sociopathy.

                    1. “And just a couple thousand on religious grounds? Craig, your posts trend towards sociopathy.”

                      Wait! You scream MILLIONS MURDERED, and when you are shown to be off by a factor of 1,000X or more, you scream “sociopath”.

                      Do they teach you this stuff at the Libertarian confabs? That’s fantastic. One would think you’d lament all the dead people that Nader could have saved if it wasn’t for “libertarians” making it so hard to make cars safer or cleaner. This makes you a MURDERER.

                    2. Modern China: The Fall and Rise of a Great Power, 1850 to the Present. “Mao’s responsibility for the extinction of anywhere from 40 to 70 million lives brands him as a mass killer greater than Hitler or Stalin, his indifference to the suffering and the loss of humans breathtaking”

                      These are two separate events conducted by the same government. While I wasn’t letting you off the hook for the tens of millions purged, you seemed to find complete acceptance when a few thousand were murdered. So I focused on that since it was during the previously non-debated post industrialization period of China. Your posts also trend towards stupidity.

                      My two daily drivers are both 5 star crash rating all the way around, four wheel disc brakes with ABS and have all wheel drive. Explain to me how I’m not about safe vehicles?

                      One is PZEV and both have catalytic converters. How does this compare with the vehicles you had when you had your construction business?

  27. “From each according to ability?to each according to need.”

    And if the collective need outweighs the collective ability ?

    Meh…You should have become a party member sooner.

  28. I got news for everyone.

    The minimum wage is $0.

    One of the greater grotesqueries of the Progressive Theocracy is how it discourages the creation of value. There are all sorts of ways one might run a welfare state, and they pick the one that keeps willing workers and employers from creating value together.

    Socialists at least used to believe in labor. In the Labor Theory of Value. They wanted industrial armies to *do stuff*. Now Progressives believe in armies of regulators to *prevent* people from doing stuff. The only doing they want to see is coercion for the sake of coercion. A boot stamping a human face, forever.

    1. “Now Progressives believe in armies of regulators to *prevent* people from doing stuff.”

      Well, you are 1/2 right – and that is the very definition of propaganda….it always contains a little truth, then makes a “conclusion”.

      The real story is complex, but it goes like this. Yes, progressives believe that hard work and labor should always have a seat at the table. That’s “progressive”, while slavery, feudal societies and indentured servitude is more “conservative” (traditional in history).

      Our problem now is that we have too much and have yet to adjust. When one farmer can feed 10,000 people as opposed to 10, there are 9,900 workers who need to do something else.

      When robots build cars – as opposed to people – those 100’s of thousands of people need something to do.

      So far, we’ve tried to fill those holes by selling shit to each other and creating “service” jobs up the kazoo like millions of headshrinkers, massage therapists, homeopathic advisors, financial consultants, social media directions, etc. etc. etc.

      But all that stuff only goes so far. We can’t all be bloggers or headshrinkers…..or can we?

      Well, right now we are in the middle of this great transition…there simply is not – nor will there be – work for many many of those who used to toil.

      So, what to do? As a society, we have various choices. I’m not going to lay them all out, but we have to deal with this one way or another.

      1. craiginmass|9.13.14 @ 7:12PM|#
        …”When robots build cars – as opposed to people – those 100’s of thousands of people need something to do.”

        Gee, asshole, why don’t you tell us how we’re gonna run out of food, too?
        ——————
        “So, what to do? As a society, we have various choices. I’m not going to lay them all out, but we have to deal with this one way or another.”

        Oh, look! Asshole has decided we must ‘do something!’. Let’s see, where have I heard that canard before?
        I’m not going to lay it our for you, asshole.

        1. As a wise mentor of mine once said, guys like Sevo talk like that because they simply have nothing better to say.

          We could call it the online equiv. of road rage.

          Enjoy, Sevo, but deep inside you realize you have no idea what is going on in the world and are likely losing the game.

          1. craiginmass|9.13.14 @ 8:03PM|#
            “Enjoy, Sevo, but deep inside you realize you have no idea what is going on in the world and are likely losing the game.”

            Assholes like craig hope they can somehow salvage their miserable lives by lying about themselves and others.
            Enjoy, lying asshole.

          2. As a wise mentor of mine once said

            John Wayne Gacy?

        2. Sevo, you missed this gem:

          Our problem now is that we have too much and have yet to adjust. When one farmer can feed 10,000 people as opposed to 10, there are 9,900 workers who need to do something else.

          Apart from his innumeracy, it sounds like he’d rather have that farmer feed only 10 and leave the other 9,990 to starve – Craig’s Leap Forward!

          1. “Apart from his innumeracy, it sounds like he’d rather have that farmer feed only 10 and leave the other 9,990 to starve – Craig’s Leap Forward!”

            Actually “let em die” is the Libertarian chant – yelled by many to their Hero Ron Paul during the Prez debates.

            Actually, your stale mind – the very essence of “conservatism”, fails to understand or accept change. You built your world view around a religion which says if folks aren’t all picking cotton from dawn to dusk, productivity and therefore available resources will drop.

            No rule (now) says that we each have to work X amount of hours per week.
            We could build more public works projects…but even those use mostly machines these days. We could pay them for not working….and we do this already. This is no crazier than paying farmers not to plant fields because we already have a surplus.

            We could change our trade policies and force Americans to insource more than outsource, thereby become more of Switzerland where 9 of 10 people make $25 an hour or more. Doing this would also entail paying for more education for all, as I’m sure Switzerland already does.

            You can ignore all of this – it doesn’t change things on the ground. Just as the initial industrialization changed everything, so is all in flux now that we’ve entered a world where code means more than labor.

            1. craiginmass|9.13.14 @ 8:20PM|#
              …”Actually “let em die” is the Libertarian chant – yelled by many to their Hero Ron Paul during the Prez debates.”…

              Asshole, your fave dictator didn’t let ’em die; he murdered them by the millions.

            2. Actually, your stale mind – the very essence of “conservatism”, fails to understand or accept change.

              And your mind can’t function without constant change. No wonder you’re so autistic, since you’re on constant overload.

            3. If what you are saying were true, older workers with “obsolete” job skills would be leaving the work force to make way for younger people who have had a chance to be trained in educated in skills more valuable to the progressing economy.

              Well, the opposite is happening.

              From 1992 – 2012 the labor participation rate among 16 – 24 year-old people dropped from 66.1% to 54.9%

              http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_303.htm

              Why is this happening?

              1. “From 1992 – 2012 the labor participation rate among 16 – 24 year-old people dropped from 66.1% to 54.9%”

                Off the top of my head, I’d say quasi-legal weed, the Bush Recession, parental money, outsourcing and many other factors.

                Did you make up another reason to fit your world view?

                1. The Obama depression could have contributed as well.

                  1. I think more people getting advanced degrees may have also mattered. Longer life spans also.

                    1. Did you actually look at the chart? The recession merely exaggerated existing trends. The workforce keeps getting older.

                      Why would living longer keep young people out of the workforce?

                      Does it take until your fifties to get a degree? The rate doesn’t go up until you get to 55 and older.

                    2. “Why would living longer keep young people out of the workforce?”

                      Well, let’s see. Scratch your head a bit…

                      1. More people go to grad school until a later age. Look it up…..

                      2. More specialized workforce means even MORE grad and technical school.

                      3. We have advanced a bit and many teens and young people do stuff like travel the US and Europe as well as volunteer (peace corps, americorps), delaying their entry to the salt mines.

                      4. If we are now healthier to an older age, we keep at our jobs longer – therefore not opening up those positions to new participants as quickly.

                      5. Increased efficiency in the workplaces everywhere means less demand for bodies.

                      6. Many jobs have been outsourced to India, China and elsewhere in the world.

                      Do any of those make sense to you? They do to me…

                    3. You seem to have forgotten the context under which we are discussing this. Your assertion was that progressing technology was leaving the work force behind.

                      1 & 2: What makes 55 the magic number then?

                      3: How are they earning a living? Are they living off of their parents who, according to you are going back to school in larger numbers?

                      4: This contradicts everything you said about needing to care for those obsoleted workers. It also only applies if the job market doesn’t grow.

                      5. Why are the bodies disproportionately young?

                      6. Again, why are they disproportionately young?

                    4. “Your assertion was that progressing technology was leaving the work force behind.”

                      Of course it is! That’s not even a point up for discussion. It’s happened time and time again….in the USA regionally and otherwise.

                      When they strip the tops off mountains instead of digging shafts and mining a piece at a time, there are less (almost no) workers involved. When power looms got fancier, tens of thousands were thrown out of work. Now we have the robotics and farming revolutions (farming was actually a while ago).

                      We see a tripling of productivity in relatively recent years. Are we each using the 3X as much stuff produced?

                      You fella’s seem to like details….but life is complex and talking points don’t answer those questions. We could probably take our entire lives and dedicate them to nothing but research on why and how the work force shifts…and still not have an answer you’d accept.

                      The sands constantly shift. As you well know, most Americans would neither work in the fields or in sweaty jobs nor send their kids there. That also has a lot to do with it – we bring in immigrants to do that stuff (under the table, of course).

                      It’s complicated. The simple answer is that if those people wanted to pick farm produce or clean hotel rooms or dishes, the jobs would probably be there.

  29. Let’s cover the *facts* regarding coerced pay increases in the hopes that the brain-deads might learn something, regardless of the irrelevant “modern times” claims of the asshole.
    1. As mentioned above, the entire study of econ would have to be wrong if coerced transactions did not reduce human wealth.
    2. The money now paid to the workers has to come from somewhere. It could be just inflationary printing. It could be increases in prices. It could be reduction in other amounts paid to the workers. Doesn’t matter, it comes from someplace. And asshole fantasies that it ‘only adds two cents’ to the price are nothing other than an admission that asshole is clueically challenged.
    3. The price increases will not be a ‘pass-though’; they will represent the marked-up costs required to stay in business, regardless of the lying asshole’s claim that “it’s only two cents!”
    4. The increase will reduce the employment chances of those at the lower margins, as the now cheaper machines replace low-wage workers.
    cont’d.

  30. 5. The claims by assholes that low wages cost taxpayers is, natch, total bullshit. Raising the M/W tosses many former low-wage earners onto un-employment roles and further leads many to engage in ‘jobs’ like selling dope. How cheap is it, asshole, to keep some black or brown kid in jail?
    6. I’m sure most here can add more, but I want to end this with the comment about the FUCKING ASSHOLES who fantasize that they are so smart that they can tell the world how it should be run.
    Yes, craig and commie-kid, that’s you! Would you please tell us how you are both granted such omniscience?
    Or how about admitting you are both slimy self-centered narcissists who really ought to get fucked with rusty pieces of iron?

    1. Yes, craig and commie-kid, that’s you! Would you please tell us how you are both granted such omniscience?

      Tony is “honest” about it, but they’re all infected with the same disease. The government is god to them; no matter the question, the answer must come from the government. When the government doesn’t act, it bears responsibility for all of the ills (real or perceived) perpetuated by others. Conversely, when the government does act, that confers an immunity to all unintended consequences.

      Never mind all of the arbitrariness in defining “the government” and “actions of government” and the like, they are arbiters of the true faith and we are but heretics in their eyes.

    2. Ah, I get it. The Negroes will flip burgers for $7.25 an hour instead of making $500 a day on the corner – but if you pay them $9 an hour, then they will sell the drugs instead because the $7.25 jobs will go away.

      Folking Brilliant. Any other words of wisdom?

  31. “For the range of minimum wage increases over the past several decades, methodologies using local com- parisons provide more reliable estimates by controlling for heterogeneity in employment growth. These estimates sug- gest no detectable employment losses from the kind of min- imum wage increases we have seen in the United States.”

    http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/w…..157-07.pdf

    1. Step 1. Exclude 3/4 of the US population
      Step 2. Ignore population mobility
      Step 3. ???
      Step 4. PROFIT!

  32. “What are the effects of minimum wage increases on the labor market? This is a question of long-standing interest to both economists and policy makers. Additionally, what can we learn about the nature of the labor market by looking at responses to minimum wage changes? In this paper, we compare areas in the US across state borders with different minimum wages and find some striking results: while increases in minimum wages do not seem to affect employment for workers in highly affected groups (those working in industries like restaurants, or teens generally), we do find that their earnings increase and their turnover rates fall sharply. We next use this set of results, along with new models of the labor market that focus on job search, to answer the following question: are there features of the labor market that deviate from a competitive “ideal” in important ways, and do these features help explain why minimum wages may tend to reduce turnover more than reduce jobs? Our study finds an affirmative answer to both these questions.”

    http://ftp.iza.org/dp5811.pdf

    1. Step 1: Exclude 3/4 of US population
      Step 2: Ignore population mobility
      Step 3: Exclude the maps, graphs, and tables
      Step 4: ???
      Step 5: PROFIT!

      Clearly, this is the better business plan!

  33. As CEPR noted in March and April posts, economists at Goldman Sachs conducted a simple evaluation of the impact of these state minimum-wage increases. GS compared the employment change between December and January in the 13 states where the minimum wage increased with the changes in the remainder of the states. The GS analysis found that the states where the minimum wage went up had faster employment growth than the states where the minimum wage remained at its 2013 level.

    When we updated the GS analysis using additional employment data from the BLS, we saw the same pattern: employment growth was higher in states where the minimum wage went up. While this kind of simple exercise can’t establish causality, it does provide evidence against theoretical negative employment effects of minimum-wage increases.

    http://www.cepr.net/index.php/…..nimum-wage

    I posted these three article in separate posts so I could make them look more authoritative.

    1. Ooh, ooh let me play!

      Let’s see, first of all the states that didn’t raise the minimum wage have greater average job growth.

      Also, that graph says basically nothing. What is the job growth by industry and income level? What is the unemployment change by age and length of prior unemployment? Are there any correlations in the above to the amount of increase in the MW and the proportion of jobs affected by it?

      Never mind the failure to account for confounding variables, which permeates every one of these studies.

      Finally, you completely compromise your “authoritativeness” by admitting that you’re here to propagandize rather than engage in a substantive debate.

      1. . . . substantive debate.
        I think that is because other than talking points and processed conclusions, they have nada. They know that in a substantive debate they’d come up empty.
        But, it’s entertaining.

        1. It was entertaining for the first few years.

          Now it’s just getting tiresome, because – just like the global warming hoax – the reality is just so glaring.

          The bottom line for most min. wage hike whores is that they don’t exhibit the slightest bit of intellectual curiosity. They don’t understand – and/or don’t care… not mutually exclusive – why they’re being told to parrot the socialist party line on this issue: i.e., to inflate public and private sector union wages whose salaries are contractually pegged to the federal minimum.

  34. Pet Craig, Switzerland Mass.

  35. The upcoming Prez debates….I’m looking forward to them:

    Hillary – yes, I feel people should earn a wage which allows them to at least cover the very basics.
    Rand – fuck you, you slimly marxist asshole. Go blow Mao and Stalin…you cunt.
    Hillary – but, Rand, productivity has tripled.
    Rand – you pinko liberal piece of shit.
    Hillary- let’s talk instead about health – about women’s health, in particular. Why do you feel that a women should be forced by the state to carry a preggy to term…if she cannot afford to have or raise the child or if other circumstances mean she cannot be a good parent.
    Rand – you murderer! Shut up, cunt! Do as I say. God is on MY side. Only those, like myself, of FAITH deserve to be in government.

    Hillary – well, Rand, if you continue to talk like that you will never get elected.
    Rand – I’m sorry, Hillary. I will change on a dime and be a very nice man. Anything to get elected.

    Thanks for listening to the Candidates Debate.

    1. Was this from a real debate or a strawman debate?

      1. “Was this from a real debate or a strawman debate?”

        This represents the logic of normal people as opposed to the Libertarian ways expressed both here and by the Chief Waffler, Sen. Paul.

        1. “This represents the logic of normal people…”

          I laughed too hard to read more.

          Back in reality, here’s how this fantasy discussion would go:

          Hillary – yes, I feel I have the authority to regulate the details of private employment contracts between citizens in the same State – the Constitution says so – and that people should earn a wage which allows them to at least cover the very basics, so that more money that can be garnished by the federal government to pay for my perpetual status as an elite personage.

          Rand – So go start your own business and pay them that wage. No one’s stopping you. As for your fantasies about the Constitution, that’s all they are – fantasies.

        2. Please define normal people.

    2. Awww, I think we broke poor Craig’s wittle brain. Now he’s making up really insane shit.

  36. One of the things I rarely see addressed in this discussion of “minimum” wages, is that our government is engaged in a deliberate policy of devaluing the value of the dollar, so that over the next decades, the vast amount of money the spend, that they don’t collect, becomes insignificant in comparison to what it was when borrowed. One effect of this is that the 8 dollar minimum wage today versus 10 years ago has half the buying power. Instead of addressing the fundamental issue of government inflation, the statists make it about evil businesses and heartless Republicans. They perpetuate a victim mentality that fits right into THEIR exploitation of entry level workers. And they get free useful idiots to carry their water.
    How do you have an intelligent debate if the people bringing the issue up are motivated by self-interest and bigoted ideology?

    1. “One effect of this is that the 8 dollar minimum wage today versus 10 years ago has half the buying power. ”

      Ah, an admission of guilt! Thanks!

      So, the magical miracle of capitalism, production (tripled) and low low Wal-Mart prices….means that people have 1/2 the buying power?

      This is the Reagan/Bush/Clinton miracle in a nutshell.

      Thanks for making a point that many here struggle to understand. The average Joe should not be expected to understanding international finance or modern economics. BUT, he certainly knows about “1/2 the buying power”.

      As to that buying power – it’s largely a matter of supply and demand. If I can find 1,000 people a year to buy the $100,000 boat I make, then I have zero reason to make a 30K model. Same with houses. Same with Whole Foods. Same with just about everything…

      Which is why quest for profit does not cover 100% of what is needed in this world.

      Look it up. Our inflation is the envy of the world (low in comparison). You can crow about how bad it is, but it’s among the lowest in the world. How much is a pound of chicken where you live? How much was it in 1978?

      (note – it is approx double – a rate of inflation of about 2% yearly.

      1. I recall watching a video regarding Indonesia’s silver dirham. The price for a goat today is exactly what it was 1500 years ago.

        Craig, do share what is needed in the world. I think we need top men like you to decide, regulate and distribute.

        1. “regarding Indonesia’s silver dirham”

          Great – so we all go Muslim and live in poverty and build factories to make products which go elsewhere for companies that exist elsewhere – and we will be enlightened and solve all our monetary problems???

          Fact is, the world has always used “top person” to set the course. You and I are standing on the shoulders of REAL giants, not false ones like the Fiction Writer creates.

          We could take your same weak argument and say “what we need is for a few people in the world to create a modern OS for a computer and then we can all use it and prosper”….

          Fact is, this IS THE CASE. I remember reading years ago that only a handful of people in the world (at any given time) are/were capable of creating an OS kernel. I thik the number was about 10-20.

          You are fooling yourself if you think the world is not all about specialized trades…some more special than others. The universe of people like Plato, Socrates, Locke, etc. is rather small. Luckily, they all added things to the mix.

          It’s laughable that y’ll think that YOU are doing the same. I can assure you that you are not. Most here are simply authoritarian cultists – clearly unable to think outside the conclusions they already accepted as fact.

          1. So I need to hire a top man homecare worker to wipe my ass because that could be/should be/will be a specialized task?

            We don’t need to be Muslim, we just need to cut ties with a purposely inflationary monetary system that is used to steal and control from the folks that use it. Top man is concerned with maintaining top man status. Period.

            It is laughable to think you believe that folks can’t make decisions without government.

            Fact is, you are rambling again in a barely coherent/incoherent non-sequitur. Clearly. Obviously. And laughably weak. Did a top man help you write that post? Or did you not have top man assistance and that is why it is so clearly, obviously laughable? And foolish.

            1. So are you claiming that in the context of the modern world, 2% inflation is out of hand and that Rand Paul and the Koch’s will fix this if we decide to follow their ways?

              I’ve learned this much – it’s easy to be a critic – much easier than actually doing a job. If you really think you know someone who can do a better one, let us know.

              After all, Rand’s experience as a local eye doc must have given him insight into economics better than a Princeton Economics fellow like Bernake, right?

              Rand must sleep at Holiday Inn Express each night…

              1. 2% inflation is 2% too much. I thought I was clear before. In the context of any world. Borrowing money from retirees and children not yet born without their consent is something I disagree with. No matter how many times someone tries to convince me it is the price all must pay for a modern, progressive society.

                Also, I forgot to call you out on your prejudicial stereotyping of Indonesians. Thought someone from a melting pot of diverse acceptance such as Mass would be more open to learning from other societies. So kudos to you for that.

                I like another false choice. Must be Rand Paul or Keynesian. Thanks for that too.

                I don’t need anybody to “fix it”. Folks need to stop manipulating it.

              2. So are you claiming that in the context of the modern world, 2% inflation is out of hand and that Rand Paul and the Koch’s will fix this if we decide to follow their ways?

                Someone apparently doesn’t understand the effects of compound functions. Look up the growth rate of the CPI sometime and learn basic math, dummy.

                I’ve learned this much – it’s easy to be a critic – much easier than actually doing a job.

                The shitlib mating call.

      2. You’re an ignoramus and thank you for providing evidence of my last comment.
        Reading a statist discussing economic reality is like watching my dog eat her own shit – ultimately harmless, but just basically WRONG!

        1. Gotta use that word soup in your Libertarian Library! Remember, when you have no point, use one of the following and you will likely end the debate.

          statist
          asshole
          cunt
          marxist
          maoist
          cuba
          stalin
          hitler (well, actually, this hits too close to libertarian views, so scratch it).
          point of a gun

          Never forget….these words. They will get you out of any jam!

          1. Provide an argument for Hitler being libertarian. Starting with the core of libertarianism, the NAP, and how that dovetails with the Nuremburg laws up to and including the holocaust. Please also work in Hitler nationalizing industry. And gun control laws. And how Hitler wasn’t considered Nazi Germany’s top Top Man.

            1. There is no proposal for $15 an hour which is even considered at the Federal level.

              So, if I hold up a sign and walk down the street asking for $100 an hour min. wage, would you then report that as “a proposal”?

              Might I point you to the article above – Obama and the Congress have STALLED an increase to $9.

              Some “activists” are asking for $15. Well, that’s not really news. AND, if a local city wants to do so, that’s their business…isn’t it? States and cities rights? Or no?

                1. Sen. Elizabeth Warren wants to raise minimum wage to $22 per hour.

                  Obviously, she’s the equivalent of a crazy kook with a sign. Who could take that seriously? She’s clearly deranged.

                2. Ah, so someone saying “if” is the point being discussed? I thought we were discussing whether or not a rise to $9 to $11 was reasonable or if it would hurt too many people?

                  On the other hand, you fellas like to always exaggerate, so you push the idea that if someone is starving they SHOULD be able to work at Wal-Mart for $2 an hour, right?

              1. Provide an argument for Hitler being libertarian. Starting with the core of libertarianism, the NAP, and how that dovetails with the Nuremburg laws up to and including the holocaust. Please also work in Hitler nationalizing industry. And gun control laws. And how Hitler wasn’t considered Nazi Germany’s top Top Man.

                You made a post saying that Hitler hit close to libertarian views. Per above, back it up.

                1. I see you posted that below.

            2. 1. Survival of the fittest – weak, disabled, unproductive, etc. are a drag on society and economics.

              2. Corporatism – this is the very essences of Fascism and also Libertarianism – which is why the Kochs – who run the largest private corporation in the USA – are the head of it.

              3. “We” know better than you because we have money and power.

              4. The old ways (conservatism) are the best ways.

              5. Ayn Rand claimed the white man could take the USA because he was going to do more for it and civilize it. Is Germany taking Poland any different?

              6. Production and efficiency beat out ALL other ways – the population should be happy with prosperity despite anything else which goes on..

              7. Bullying, Racism, etc – evident in the words of many here as well in the undertones of both Pauls….

              8. Lack of Religion and Moral basis – The Fiction Writer claims religion is evil and for weak men and weak minds. Germany had the same view

              The lack of empathy, compassion, acceptance -praying at the altar of production and authority figures. Many KKK types now claim they are “libertarian”. Go over to stormfront and you will see them laughing with glee at “recruiting” from the Tea Party and from Libertarians. The Pauls are the most heavily talked about pols over there at the White Supremacy site

              I’m not saying they are exactly the same, but modern USA Libertarianism is definitely toward the right-wing authoritarian (we KNOW better – big daddy Koch or Paul told us!) end of things.

              1. 3. “We” know better than you because we have money and power.

                Because, clearly, federal politicians have no control of money and/or power.

                You know, except for the $3 trillion in taxes and $3.7 trillion in spending.

                Other than that, it’s really the pitiful, poor people vs. the evil corporatist pigs that live inside your head.

              2. 1 libertarianism doesn’t preclude helping others. It involves not putting an oppressive, coercive government in charge of looking after others. For the fifth time, where are those hundreds of kids that supremely smart, educated, advanced and sophisticated Duvall Patrick lost?

                2 cite a respected dictionary that includes corporatism in its definition of facism. And given libertarians’ view if private ownership, I’m confused by the Nazis taking over private entities.

                3 we know what is better for ourselves. Funny that your argument is basically, “We know better than you because…MIT.” This is very consistent with your top man argument. It is like you are arguing against yourself.

                4 free minds and free markets are the best ways. Some older ways sucked. Like the top man fallacy.

                5 if you think everything Ayn Rand wrote it said is somehow libertarian cannon you are ignorant.

                6 super straw man. It is about allowing each person to make their own choices. If you want to buy Pepsi at Shaws instead of Walmart because they pay higher wages even though it costs more, feel free.

                7 you are correct. Your post regarding Indonesian Muslims was racist.

                8 libertarians don’t give a rat’s ass if you worship Jesus, Allah, Jehovah, Buddah, a rock or whatever. As long as it doesn’t infringe on us or require us to pay for it. See (5) above.

                1. You failed to incorporate the NAP into the holocaust as I asked. It is probably the most recognized part of Nazism and the NAP is the core of libertarianism.

                  Feel free to go to some fringe website and pull a quote from someone claiming to be libertarian (but clearly isn’t) an make another straw man on how all libertarians are that way.

                  1. Comments are not meant for serious debate – but for starters:

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_of_fascism
                    “Big business developed an increasingly close partnership with the Nazi government as it became increasingly organized. Business leaders supported the government’s political and military goals, and in exchange, the government pursued economic policies that maximized the profits of its business allies. Nazi Germany transferred public ownership and public services into the private sector”

                    Hmmm…..public services to the private sector? Gubment doing what biz wanted? Hmmmm….

                    “Fascism operated from a Social Darwinist view of human relations. The aim was to promote superior individuals and weed out the weak. In terms of economic practice, this meant promoting the interests of successful businessmen while destroying trade unions and other organizations of the working class”

                    hmmm….survival of the fittest. Weed out the weak. Destroying Unions?

                    C’mon. This is almost word for word, the Koch way. Oh, yeah, they hated Communists also….big time. Thought all should be killed….

                    Cmon. It’s common knowledge that Fascism is collusion between Corporations and the State. Have you ever read “Arms of Krupp”.

                    1. You failed to incorporate the NAP into the holocaust as I asked. It is probably the most recognized part of Nazism and the NAP is the core of libertarianism.

                      From your link:
                      The proportion of military spending in the German economy began growing rapidly after 1942, as the Nazi government was forced to dedicate more and more of the country’s economic resources to fight a losing war. Civilian factories were converted to military use and placed under military administration.

                      Regarding the non-nationalized private entities, the close ties is called crony capitalism. Basically what Obamacare was. Not a case celeb of libertarians. It’s common knowledge that you are fine with thousands murdered by the PRC under religious purging a. And are also fine with tens of millions murdered by the PRC a few decades earlier. It is not common knowledge that fascism included collusion with private entities though it doesn’t rule it out. From dictionary.com: Fascism:
                      a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

                    2. It’s common knowledge that Fascism is collusion between Corporations and the State.

                      Defense spending was easily the largest federal expense even during the Great Depression, but I don’t see you crying about that.

      3. That isn’t an admission of guilt retard, it’s a condemnation of the government policies YOU support.

      4. Why can’t our government just stop devaluing the dollar so badly instead of forming other policies around it?

        1. “Why can’t our government just stop devaluing the dollar so badly instead of forming other policies around it?”

          Is this why it’s the strongest currency in the world at the moment? Backwards Bizzarro “facts” again….

          The gubment does what it can, but unfortunately some administrations (Reagan, GW, especially) have set precedents and caused situations which will take decades to recover from. So we have to save the patient rather than make him jog and drop dead.

          1. Does what it can? The government printing and borrowing money is what’s driving inflation.

            1. “The government printing and borrowing money is what’s driving inflation.”

              Are you claiming inflation in the real world (global) can be zero? If so, can you point us to the developed societies which have such an economy?

              Even that libertarian paradise of Hong Kong has inflation…in fact, they have decided to tie their money to a more stable place – the USA.

              Here is their inflation rate:
              http://www.tradingeconomics.co…..lation-cpi

              You know, it’s fun to debate – but when I have to debate against “facts” or standards which you make up out of thin air, it’s hard to make a point!

              Point out to us which country is better and best…only then can we compare and see if our 2-4% inflation is “bad”.

              1. I’m not claiming that “real world inflation can be zero.” I’m claiming that printing money to pay for bloated government spending is a shitty policy and that forming other policies, such as minimum, to fit an existing shitty policy, is also shitty policy.

              2. You know, it’s fun to debate – but when I have to debate against “facts” or standards which you make up out of thin air, it’s hard to make a point!

                The only point you’ve been making in this whole thread is “GIBSMEDAT!”

  37. The only ones benefiting would be those who take the initial extra earnings before inflation catches up and put them all into investments early on that can keep ahead of inflation. But then anyone who knows to do that already has an above minimum wage job.

  38. Red herring.

    The minimum/”living” wage hike movement has been manufactured by organized labor for the benefit of organized labor. All the Wal-Mart protests are union-backed and led. The $15 fast-food protests/demands are union organized.

    It’s the unions that benefit the most. a) Raising the minimum wage reduces competition for unskilled (union) jobs, protecting the jobs of union members and b.) the popular formulas for union labor contract compensation set baseline union wages at a percentage above minimum (hint: a raise in minimum wage equals an immediate pay raise for many union employees by legal decree NOT contract negotiation).

    http://www.heritage.org/resear…..wage-rises
    http://online.wsj.com/news/art…..1000422454

  39. Ok, so if I understand the argument (or rather one of the arguments) against raising the minimum wage correctly, raising wages is bad because it increases costs to the business, but why isn’t that applied to non-minimum wage jobs? No one complains that it will impact profits or increase consumer costs when the CEO or other executive gets a raise (or really anyone who makes more then the minimum wage).

    On a related point, if raising the minimum wage is such a terrible idea and will cause so much harm, shouldn’t lowering the minimum wage to -say- $0.50\hour result in a surge of hiring, prosperity and wealth for everyone?
    Or -as I suspect would happen- would companies simply reduce wages, leave staff levels the same and keep the remainder as profit?

    As to one of the authors other points, many people I know earning minimum or near minimum wage live with parents, family or friends because they cannot afford to live independently -coincidence?

  40. I am a single mother of three growing boys. I work full time and minimum wage is a joke. I pay $951 for rent on apartment and no bills are included. I work therefore I make too much for Medicaid and I don’t qualify for food assistance but I struggle and live paycheck to paycheck. I scrape by. We don’t have perks like cable or a DVD player. Minimum wage should be increased to at least $8.50. Then maybe I could get through a paycheck without so much stress.

Please to post comments

Comments are closed.