Jeb Bush

Jeb Bush: The GOP's Legacy Underdog

For the chattering class, Jeb will always be the Bush who got away.


Leif Skoogfors/FEMA Photo Library

Barbara Bush was right when she pooh-poohed son Jeb's interest in running for the White House in 2016. Forget political dynasties—Bushes, Kennedys and, yes, Clintons—the former first lady told NBC last year. "We've had enough Bushes." She also said: "There are a lot of great families, and it's not just four families or whatever."

Listen to your mother, Jeb.

Heed her words well, Hillary.

My sweetest dream for 2016 would be for a bipartisan pact: that 2016 will not be a sequel to the 1992 Bush-Clinton faceoff. Is it a deal, Dems? I won't vote for Bush if you won't vote for the better half of the 1992 Democratic pick.

Jeb Bush fans—call them Jebbies—argue that his resume is exactly what the GOP needs. Even though Barack Obama won their state twice, Floridians love their former governor. His wife is Latina. He speaks Spanish at home. He's not a knee-jerk Republican. He gets things done. He supports Common Core State Standards. He could draw new eyeballs to the Grand Old Party.

I see the appeal. I might even want to vote for him by 2016, especially if the field is anything like the 2012 cluster of shameless preeners in the Herman Cain, Newt Gingrich, and Jon Huntsman mold.

But it would be a mistake to vote for this Bush, because like Mitt Romney, he cannot win a general election. Period. Both guys look great on paper, but when voters look at either former governor, they can't get past the perception that they are gazing at a son of privilege and a creature of the establishment. Worse, both former governors think they're underdogs, not sons of privilege and creatures of the establishment.

National Archives

Then there's his Hamlet shtick: To run or not to run? Bush told Fox News' Shannon Bream that he's not sure he wants to run unless he can do so "with a hopeful, optimistic message" and without watching his rhetoric get sucked into "the vortex of the mud fight." (That's another plus. He uses words such as "vortex.")

Bush also said he wants to campaign "joyfully" and free of the "convention of the politics of the here and now." Here's the headline: Bush not sure GOP is good enough for him.

This bothers me: Bush says he has qualms about slumming it in the muddy GOP primary, yet somehow the Sunshine Stater didn't think it would dirty his hands to fly to Las Vegas to kiss the ring of Sheldon Adelson, the GOP mega-donor whose millions kept Gingrich in the endless 2012 primary.

I don't want to sound ungrateful to all those East Coast Democrats who tell me Bush is The Republican whom primary voters would pick, if only—big sigh—they knew what is best for them. Really.

I realize that conservatives should welcome Bush's assertion that breaking U.S. immigration law is not a felony but an "act of love." It's touching, when you think about it, how our betters in the Beltway want to shower the GOP with endless acts of love.

Methinks they're trying to make up for the sick twist of fate in 1994 that robbed Jeb of victory in his first gubernatorial bid when his less serious politician brother George won Texas. With that edge, the cockier Bush won the Oval Office in 2000. For the chattering class locked in its own way-back machine, Jeb will always be the Bush who got away.

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  1. the perception that they are gazing at a son of privilege and a creature of the establishment.

    It’s not just a perception.

    1. Of course he’s a son of privilege. He’s white right?

      1. He’s what my grandfather used to refer to as a “Rockefeller Republican”. The Bushs are old New England money. Which is fine, and shouldn’t IMHO be a factor in why you do or don’t vote for a person. I bring it up solely to point out that, yes, he actually does come from money and privilege, it’s not just racism.

  2. Like Mitt Romney, he cannot win a general election…. Worse, both former governors think they’re some kind of underdogs.

    Well, that seems to me the sort of definition of an underdog.*

    *Please understand that this is not an endorsement of Jeb Bush. A Latina wife is not a qualification for office, speaking Spanish is not a qualification for office, getting things done is almost the antithesis of what I want in a politician, and without a ton of knowledge of Common Core, what I do understand about it makes me skittish.

    1. As I understand it, Common Core hasn’t actually been written yet.

      1. As I understand it, Common Core hasn’t actually been written yet.

        Then why the hell are they implementing it at my son’s school? Including eliminating the honors math track as a result?

        My son is in 6th grade and was fortunate enough to be in 7th grade honors math all this year. Next year with Common Core, he will be expected to take “7th grade regular math” — essentially to drop backwards two years. I’m sure he won’t be bored or restless as a result!

        Thanks you educational professionals for bringing us Lowest Common Core! Another way towards your goal of making everyone identical and working in the hive.

      2. They have to pass it first.

  3. a son of privilege and a creature of the establishment

    I’m not seeing how that translates to “he cannot win a general election”. Since when are we electing “mavericks”… anywhere? When is the last time anyone got elected specifically for “not being a creature of the establishment”?

    1. To a large degree, Obama’s first election was precisely because he was seen as an outside; someone exotic and new, who brought with him promises of change (bidniz as usual administration notwithstanding).

      1. To a large degree, Obama’s first election was precisely because he was seen as an outside; someone exotic and new, who brought with him promises of change (bidniz as usual administration notwithstanding).

        More like Obama won the nomination because he opposed the Iraq War (had Hillary also opposed the Iraq War, she would have mopped up the floor with him), and he won the general election because the economy collapsed at just the right time.

        1. I don’t see how you’re disputing his point. Democratic primary voters were wary of supporting someone who was in favor of Iraq, and in the general election, people saw McCain as a continuation of Bush, who they blamed for the economic crisis. Obama was seen, in both cases, as representing change. I’m not saying voters were right to think that, but they clearly did.

        2. To a large degree, Obama’s first election was precisely because he was seen as an outside; someone exotic and new

          Anyone else hearing the Love Boat theme?
          Obama……exotic and new…. come on board… we’re expecting you!

        3. I wonder who might have the tools and experience to cause such a dramatic economic collapse that was first recognized when billions upon billions of dollars began to be withdrawn from the system in a matter of Hours.

          It makes my brain Soros to think about it.

      2. Are you kidding me…if you want exotic and new elect a stripper…[she’d have been as equally qualified to lead us to ruin as this feral pig]…it was for one reason only…race…

    2. It’s the libertarian moment.

    3. Uh the entire Tea Party.

      1. I think he was talking about president. Although I think Obama was elected largely for that reason, even though the perception was incorrect.

        1. what…exotic and new? More like idiotic and spew…

  4. He supports Common Core State Standards.
    Fuck that guy.

    1. Missed that. Good catch.


      fts–twice already.

    2. I fail to see how the endorsement of the nationalization of education is something to be supported on an obstensibly libertarian website.

  5. I often berate democrats for continuing to support Obama after he signed an extension of the patriot act. On a similar note, Poppy the Spook’s betrayal of his “no new taxes” promise should have rendered himself and all of his offspring anathema to the Republicans for ten generations.


  6. “…when voters look at either former governor, they can’t get past the perception that they are gazing at a son of privilege and a creature of the establishment.”

    Wake me when either major party runs a candidate who is not a son of privilege and, if not a creature of the establishment, won’t be one after the first round of fund raising.

    1. Cheer up. After the winner of the 2016 Clinton v Bush election leaves office, we can welcome the winner of the Chelsea Clinton vs George P Bush match in 2024.

      1. brb, killing myself.

  7. What makes Ms. Saunders think Romney cannot win a gen’l election to president? We have exactly 1 datum to go on, and that was an election where nobody paid any att’n to who the Republicans nominated, because it didn’t matter. Obama’s win (or loss, had he lost) was entirely a fx of him, regardless who his opponent was. People voted either for or against Obama?no reflection on how good or bad a candidate Romney was.

    1. That is simply wrong. Romney’s negatives were always high and he lost in part because of the many conservatives who stayed home. Romney sucked so bad Obama was the only president re-elected with fewer votes than his first election.

      1. Yet he got the nomination because so many ‘conservatives” came out for him? His support among Republicans in primaries & caucuses came primarily from “conservatives”. There were other candidates “conservatives” liked too, but how can you explain how their support for Romney before the nomination evaporated at the gen’l election?

        1. They only let Romney through after every alternative was tried and failed. Then Romney ran an absolutely terrible campaign that gave no reason to vote for him, so many didn’t.

    2. Romney was an out of touch rich white square who wanted to outlaw birth control and killed some guys wife by firing him causing her to lose the health insurance that would have found her cancer when it was still treatable.

      Romney campaigned that his opponent was an honest and decent man and quickly dropped the factually correct charge that the administration was undoing welfare reform.

      Fucking loser better not even think of running for national office ever again.

      1. Anne Coulter maintains that not only was he the best choice in 2012, he should run again in 2016. Because of Romney’s one principle: illegal immigrants are bad m’kay?

    3. Obama got less votes in 2012 than McCain did in 2008.

      1. Totally wrong. McCain got just under 60m votes in 2008; Obama got ~65m votes in 2012.

        1. How much do you want to wager that Jeremy will continue to repeat that lie forever?

      2. That is wrong.

        According to Wikipedia Obama got 65 million votes in 2012, McCain got 60 million in 2008 (some rounding there).…..tion,_2008…..tion,_2012

  8. The Rs are only interested in running someone who will maintain the status quo. They would rather lose to a D than have anyone win who might curtail federal power or shakeup the power structure of their own party.

    I would not be surprised that if Paul were to win the nomination they would do whatever they could to see to it that he lost the general election.

    1. Maybe. It all depends upon HOW Paul wins the nomination. Paul is obviously the best one out there that is at least occasionally defending liberty who has a chance. If he wins because he mounts even a half-way principled defense of liberty, the better ones amongst the establishment Repubs may scamper on the bandwagon. They may abandon their cynicism and me-tooism and dust off the principles they had in their youth.

      No reason to be so pessimistic.

      1. No reason to be so pessimistic.

        Did you fall asleep in 1986 or something? I can think of a hell of a lot of reasons to be pessimistic.

        1. Have you been asleep the last five years. Most people have not, and they are not happy with the way things are going.

          Anyway, the cause of liberty needs happy warriors even in the face of the odds. It is the only cause worth hoping and fighting for. Some of you libertarians need to buck and throw off the pessimism or better yet, just keep the negativity and cynicism to yourselves.

          1. Have you been asleep for the last five decades? I’ve yet to see a decent president in my life unless you count Eisenhower, who was president when I was born.

            1. Was it his 90% income tax rate or his ideal that we should cut the military big time and build a civil society (schools, roads, etc.) that made him so appealing?

              Can you imagine what folks here and elsewhere would say about a President today who:

              1. Played 800 rounds of Golf during his admin.
              2. Allowed his top donors to build him a vacation home right on the green in Augusta
              3. Popped at least 2 heavy barbituates (seconal) each night to sleep – on top of as many as 7 drinks (scotch) per day.
              4. Suffered both a stroke and multiple heart attacks during his term….

              Look at what folks here say when Obama rents a place for 10 days!

              I think it’s the populace who have changed more than the Presidents. Intolerance reigns – usually driven by ideology. Having a black man take vacations is somehow different than when GW went to his vast ranch lands, etc.

    2. Then the Republicans are true conservatives, wanting to maintain the status quo, rather than “conservatives”.

  9. If Jeb Bush somehow gains the nomination, the Republican base is going to stay home.

    Just like with Romney.

    1. He’s not going to get the nomination, regardless of what the JournoList scumbags keep saying.

  10. I just wish that wiminz folk that throw their shoes at Hitlary could aim better. Then maybe we wouldn’t be having half of this conversation right now.

  11. Why is this column on Reason? It reads like it should have been posted to National Review.

  12. The dumbest thing the GOP could ever do would be to run Jeb. TEAM BLUE would turn out in droves to oppose another Bush, and TEAM RED would stay home in droves over another Bush. So, once again, we see the mongoloids in the GOP leadership living up to their name as the Stupid Party.

    Man, 2016 is going to be a shitshow any way you look at it.

    1. Yes, I don’t get why the establishment is doing anything other than running away. Of course, I think the same thing about the Democrats not throwing shoes continuously at Clinton.

      I was okay with Bush back when he was governor of Florida, but that ship has sailed, and he’s had more missteps than successes since then. Supporting Common Core is one major one, in my book. The last thing this country needs is to further fuck up education on a uniform, national level.

      1. Oh sure, you want education to be fucked up 50 different ways, don’t you? Don’t you see how much more efficient it is to fuck it up ONE way – nationally?

        1. lmao

      2. Hillary is a woman which changes the Bus/Clinton equation.

    2. You would think that they would have to know that. But then again, they are counting on a a public so dumb that they elected Obama a 2nd time.

      I guess the thing is, though, that it’s getting to where there is not a choice. You either elect the big government statist crony on team blue, or you elect the big government statist crony on team red. Either way you get fucked and the political elite class wins.

      1. That’s one of the reasons why voting is stupid. Not only is your vote statistically insignificant, the choices people have are abjectly terrible.

        1. No one to blame but ourselves…vote a prick in just because he’s shiny, new and “exotic” instead of because they display a modicum of character and substance…and meet at least a few of our core values…well, then, we all suffer…

        2. “It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see…”

          “You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?”

          “No,” said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, “nothing so simple. Nothing anything like to straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people.”

          “Odd,” said Arthur, “I thought you said it was a democracy.”

          “I did,” said ford. “It is.”

          “So,” said Arthur, hoping he wasn’t sounding ridiculously obtuse, “why don’t the people get rid of the lizards?”

          “It honestly doesn’t occur to them,” said Ford. “They’ve all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they’ve voted in more or less approximates to the government they want.”

          “You mean they actually vote for the lizards?”

          “Oh yes,” said Ford with a shrug, “of course.”

          “But,” said Arthur, going for the big one again, “why?”

          “Because if they didn’t vote for a lizard,” said Ford, “the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?”


          “I said,” said Ford, with an increasing air of urgency creeping into his voice, “have you got any gin?”

          “I’ll look. Tell me about the lizards.”

          Ford shrugged again.

          “Some people say that the lizards are the best thing that ever happened to them,” he said. “They’re completely wrong of course, completely and utterly wrong, but someone’s got to say it.”

      2. “You either elect the big government statist crony on team blue, or you elect the big government statist crony on team red.”

        It is not that way by accident.

        1. Yeah, all the bitching and moaning is going to do a lot of good. Jeesh, like anyone is going to follow your crappy attitudes anywhere.

          Listen, even if I were to give up seeing any big changes in my lifetime–which I haven’t–I still would not post the negative crap you guys do. I just wouldn’t post.

          Gallows humor is one thing, but defeatism is just that, defeatism.

          1. You must be young.

            I’ve taken 50 yrs of “beat-downs” without any progress.

            Call me “defeated”.

          2. Gallows humor is one thing, but defeatism is just that, defeatism.

            It’s more like realism.

          3. I see lots of great ideas in your post and ways to make meaningful changes.

            Perhaps you should open your options about when you wouldn’t post.

    3. So that probably means that Jeb will win the primary. Stupid is as stupid does.

  13. JEB ‘ACT OF LOVE’ BUSH should be indicted for treason. Mass immigration is economic terrorism. And given his elevated status in society, call immigration in any form an act of love is akin to aiding and abetting terrorism.

    I call on the DOJ to indict and try Jeb Bush for treason ASAP.

    1. I call on the DOJ to indict themselves for treason ASAP.


      1. We didn’t want the jobs and refused to do them, but THEY TOOK THEM ANYWAY … and … they’re not MURIKAN like us! … and now wer’re damn mad!

        1. There are many jobs being done by illegals that middle class Americans would love to have and once did.

          But the illegals will do them cheaper and not complain about pay or conditions.

          A 10 minute visit to the parking lot at many plants and construction sites here in Texas will prove the absurdity of your statement.

    3. I’m wondering if huffing some glue would improve your comment.

      1. Couldn’t hurt.

        Let me try. [huhhhhhhhh] OK. Um, wow.

        ‘JOHN’ ‘ELLIS’ ‘HUSSEIN’ JEBADIAH ‘ACT OF LOVE’ BUSH should be horsewhipped with salty twizzlers in his HomoTrans ambiguous genitalia. Mass illegal dummogration is eCoNoMiC TeRRor-jism. And given his elevated status in society–like literally he’s all up on a ladder and stuff, call[ing] illegal dummogration IN ANY FORM [as] an act of lovemaking is akin to AIDSing and ABETTing TeRRor-jism.

        I call on the DOJ to indict and try Jeb Bush for treason ASAP.

        Aw, man. Even with the glue I couldn’t think of anything crazier than the original last line.

        1. Drop some acid and try again in a few hours.

        2. That was very…interesting NutraSweet. It looked familiar. I am now suspecting that you are the hand in Hercule, the greatest troll of all time.

      1. The above isn’t Murkin?

        1. Murican is not inarticulate.

  14. On a “Party of Stupid” related note…

    I received a letter from John McCain today asking that I donate to the RNC.

    He don’t know me vewy well, do he?

    Seriously? These fucking idiots have John McCain out begging for donations? I’d as soon give my money to Hillary.

    The only thing standing in the way of a Rand Paul presidency are the establishment republicans.

    1. McCain is not an establishment Republican, he is a party bucking Maverick.

      1. Yeah…Maverick. Who’s Goose?

        1. Not sure, but Palin could play Kelly McGillis.

        2. Obviously Lindsey Graham.

        3. Palin’s Buttplug might count as a Goose.

      2. And Obama is a trans-partisan post-racial lightbringing only begotten Son of GOD

  15. Jeb Bush actually was a pretty good governor. That said, he’s basically Bush Jong-Un at this point. Sorry, need some new blood.

    1. I’d vote for one of Bush’s daughters. Double tequila shots with Willie Nelson at state dinners.

  16. Pro-immigration candidates could probably not win the GOP nomination right now.

    Heck, they would have a hard time winning an election among the H&R commenters.

  17. Isn’t there supposed to be an Independents thread?

    1. You will just have to be satisfied with this:

      Pro-Life Champion and Virginia GOP Delegate Bob Marshall’s SoCon Gaffes

      “Delegate Robert G. Marshall has said that disabled children can be God’s vengeance against women who have had abortions. He has described incest as sometimes voluntary, and he has questioned the sexuality of a Supreme Court justice who has favored marriage equality.”…..z2ycyRz7uK

      1. Not *the* Bob Marshall?

        1. “The author of a 1989 Boston Globe column asked him about his opposition to all abortion ? even in cases of rape, incest, and to save the life of the mother. Mr. Marshall, then the research director for the American Life League, posed a baffling question of his own in response.

          “‘What if incest is voluntary?’ Mr. Marshall said. ‘Sometimes it is.'”

          1. “Mr. Marshall has repeatedly introduced ‘personhood’ bills to secure civil and legal rights for the unborn from the moment of conception. In 2012, he also introduced a measure that would require women to undergo ultrasounds before having abortions. The legislative effort created headaches for Gov. Bob McDonnell, who ultimately requested an amendment to water down the bill after the news went national and the state became the butt of jokes for late-night comedians.”

            1. Social liberal celebrity supports abortion:

              “A star Brazilian goalkeeper jailed for 22 years for ordering the kidnap and murder of his girlfriend, who was dismembered and fed to his pet dogs, could be released to play football.

              “Bruno Fernandes de Souza, 28, confessed to the horrific crimes last March after his ex-girlfriend Eliza Samudio was murdered….

              “The goalkeeper demanded she have an abortion but she went ahead with the pregnancy, instead insisting that he assume paternity of the child….

              “Prosecutors allege that Bruno ordered Ms Samudio’s murder after she told him she would take legal action to force him to pay child support.”


              1. The president of the soccer club which signed him says: “We want to give an opportunity to the man Bruno. For him, it is a chance to return to play. To the club, he is an athlete who can strengthen the team and a way to invest in the social side.”

                Also, “According to UPI, there is a provision in Brazilian law that allows felons more freedom after three or four years of good behavior.”

                The President who signed that law, Miguel de Cacis, could not be reached for comment.

              2. Pretty dishonest, de Souza is not part of a pro-choice movement or a legislator pushing pro-choice laws like Marshall, he is a thug who happened to have an abortion (actually, it appears it was child support that was the real trigger) as an excuse for his thuggery.

                Kind of like this kid:

                “A schoolboy and two friends who killed a young mother after she aborted his baby have been jailed for a total of more than 30 years.

                Nattalie Muir, 21, was stabbed and beaten in a frenzied attack in the street last December.

                The 15-year-old boy had sworn revenge on Miss Muir, of Whitburn, West Lothian, who had become pregnant by him and then had a termination before going back to a former boyfriend.”


    2. Maybe the Independents has been cancelled?

      1. They’re promoting tonight on their twitter, so I’d guess not.

    1. Did they put the Independents thread in 24/7 or something?

  18. I guess this is it…


  19. Ok, enough fooling around, where’s the independents thread already?

    /scratches arms, shuffles feet

    1. You should demand a refund.

  20. Prediction: No dedicated < i The Independents thread. And hoops.

  21. Kennedy looks great tonight.

    1. Like an adult.

  22. Welch is already taking you, the home viewer, for granted. I say we trash him relentlessly all show. WHO’S WITH ME?

    1. /raises hand

      How would this differ from any other show?

      1. I won’t sigh heavily & attempt to defend him tonight. Have at it.

  23. It’s a CLIP SHOW!

    1. Aren’t the Friday shows always recorded?

  24. A fun question for progs:

    If taxes on tobacco discourage smoking, what do you think income taxes do?

    1. Funner question for progs:

      If you think education is important and graduating from high school is important, then do you favor redistributing GP from the ‘A’ students to the failing students? Explain how this situation is different than the current income tax.

        1. My favorite idiot was the one who stated that redistributing grade points was different from redistributing money because grades are an “indicator of performance.” Seriously, how can a person accepted at an institute of higher learning not perceive the blatant inconsistency?

  25. Just what we need! More child tax credits!

    1. I’m pro-family, aren’t you?

        1. So much for that libertarian master race I was planning.

          1. When you put it like that, it sounds like a much more appealing concept.

              1. I’ll happily sell off my excess staff of orphan slaves to provide for our incipient family of uber-libertarians.

                1. & who’s going to pick up the slack without the orphans around to do everything? YOU? I think not!

                  1. Well I have a y chromosome and you don’t, so naturally that’ll be your office.

                    1. You’re clearly forgetting who wears the pants here.

                    2. It’s that damned Aristophanes and his Lysistrata.

                    3. That’s what you get for teaching women to read.

                2. You should just donate them to that Brazilian soccer player.

  26. How about everybody pays the same dollar amount?

  27. Ooo, I can’t wait until < i The Independents tackle the breaking news tonight about Harry Reid and the Chinese land deal scandal. Is it true that’s the real reason for the ranch standoff?

    Oh, wait, this show was taped four million years ago. I forgot.

  28. Political buzzwords:

    Small Business

  29. How about a straight up sales tax?

  30. “Nobody needs…” is the thought-terminating clich? of the decade.

  31. Utah Senator Adverb’s head looks HUGE on screen.

  32. What’s with the Government Drone outfit tonight, Welch?

  33. Yeah, heaven fucking forbid we fix things too quickly.

    1. “Do little and do it slowly.”

      -advice given to 18th century Spanish colonial governor

    2. I think we can learn one thing from progressives: it’s important to at first go just the tip and get people used to an idea before you push the rest in.

      1. There was a whole society of them once. They were called Fabians.

  34. What’s wrong with a flat tax?


    The rich are paying more for the same services?

    1. “Yes, but those services allowed them to benefit so much more!”

      -actual prog talking point

  35. Here’s what’s great: first these idiots create laws, programs, and taxes that discourage working, starting a business, or raising children. Them when unemployment grows and the population declines, they go the other way and try to water down the bullshit they put in.

  36. Lex Luthor! Don’t trust him.

    1. I’d vote for him. I’m surprised there hasn’t been a Superman story where he runs for office.

      Oh wait, there was:…..ted_States

    2. “We all have our faults, Kennedy. Mine’s in California.”

  37. I wonder where this guy works.

  38. States? Healthcare? Like IAW 10A?

  39. So the Singapore system.

  40. Ha! Cato Man just crushed Kmele on Goldhill.

  41. Welch…slack-ass…where’s our thread?

    1. He might have a legit reason. Let’s hold off on lighting the effigy until he explains himself.

      1. What possible reason would be legitimate? He better be dead.

  42. Aren’t we on track to start killing people with the ACA anyway?

  43. I am seeing very little vitriol directed at Welch in this thread. Let’s pick up the pace, people!

    1. I don’t appreciate putzing around Reason like a loser looking for a party, Matt.

  44. Why don’t they put up a flashing light or ticking clock for these guests so they know the band is about to play them off stage?

  45. So this is where TI thread went?

    1. We’re occupying the Bush thread until our demands are met.

  46. Derp. The final frontier. These are the tales of a Derpetologist. His continuing mission: to explore strange, new fools. To seek out new morons and new half-wit imbeciles. To boldly sigh where no one has sighed before…

    ? ? ?

    In 2010, I attended several Tea Party rallies. My sign said:


    I made the local paper once. I explained that the purpose of my sign was to mock stupid political slogans. Most people laughed. I was denounced as a liberal infiltrator at one rally and at another, a man in a Jesus Saves t-shirt told me to go fuck myself.

  47. Kennedy did a line of coke during the commercial.

  48. And how are you going to implement your policies, Kennedy? At the point of a gun??? Huh?

  49. My sister just said to me earlier tonight “Where would we be without CBC and NPR for investigative journalism?” I kid you not.

    There’s no come back for that baby!

    1. You’d be much happier, and have more money in your pocket, too.

  50. In Tanzania and in poor countries generally, car ownership is rare. And yet, even these poor countries have functioning mass transit. The secret is that the government is not in charge of it.

  51. Come on, Welch. You really think they don’t have a water-powered engine already? Of course they do.

  52. “We choose to go to the Moon! We choose to mine it for minerals! And we choose to do these things not because they are easy but because they are profitable!”

  53. Didn’t Welch two minutes ago say we should deal with what’s available now? Now he’s telling me that green cheese will power my truck.

  54. Who cares about teh wyminz, Kennedy?

  55. Well shut my mouth.

    A jury acquits Gail Gerlach who faced manslaughter charges after he fired a single fatal shot through the rear window of his SUV as Brendon Kaluza-Graham drove away.


    A Spokane jury affirmed the rights of gun owners to protect themselves on Thursday, acquitting Gail Gerlach of killing a man who was speeding away in Gerlach’s stolen SUV.

    Tears fell on both sides of the courtroom as the not guilty verdict was read in the controversial case. Gerlach’s wife, Sharon, wept and embraced her family, as the grandmother of the man shot dead, Brendon Kaluza-Graham, burst into tears, saying her grandson would never get a chance to answer to a judge for his crime.

    “Our sadness is forever,” Ann Kaluza said


    The 25-year-old’s family said they were disgusted with the way the media portrayed Kaluza-Graham, saying their relative was made into a “one-dimensional thief.”

    “He had hopes and dreams,” said Ann Kaluza. “He was made into a poster boy for the angst of the community, a sacrificial lamb. That’s not right.”

    So he was a three-dimensional thief. K.

  56. His doctor isn’t getting any kickbacks from Pradaxa.

  57. Ha, his first statement is to walk back the advocacy of his plan.

  58. So I guess Kennedy is going into attack mode.

    1. Coke does her good.

  59. Kennedy, where is this seething sarcasm when the communist is on?

    1. ’bout to say the same thing.

    2. HELLO!? THIS

  60. Okay, she looks great tonight, but she’s totally being a BITCH!

  61. Kennedy has to use Matt’s approach.

    Kennedy is not an expert.

    Let the guy speak, sheesh.

    This is getting tiresome.

  62. I have 2, count them 2, plans to solve the immigration problem:



  63. Wow, debt peonage!

    1. But don’t invite a guy on just to yell at him. Find out if the idea’s good before going after it.

      I had to wait for him to get his ideas out before criticizing them.

  64. Shikha argues for a “family first” immigration preference.

  65. Kmele wants the Koch Brothers to BUY immigrants. He can’t fool me.

  66. Learn from Matt and Kmele, Kennedy.

    Some professionalism would be appreciated.

  67. Gave him homework.

  68. Is this the independents thread?

    And jesus Kennedy is pissed

  69. Kennedy, I want to know why you did not tear into that half-wit commie like you are this guy. Granted, selling citizenship is a bad idea, but why the anger at this guy and the kid gloves for someone advocating thievery and gulags?

    1. HELLO!? THIS (also)

    2. Selling visas (not citizenship) is a great policy. Capture the cash now going to HUMAN TRAFFICKERS and immigration attorneys, screen for criminal histories and communicable diseases, establish bonds or escrow accounts to cover transportation back home for anyone who becomes a public charge.

  70. Did Kennedy shoot some kind of meth-coke-whisky concoction before the show?

    She’s motivated and mean.

  71. I wasn’t really paying attention to that segment because I was taking an online quiz for class.

    But all I heard was Kennedy talking over the guy. Bad form.

  72. This, and she let’s the communist skate?

    That was bullshit Kennedy.

    1. HELLO!? THIS (redux)

    2. This, and she let’s the communist skate?

      What kind of a monster are you?

  73. Who’s the musical guest on Lou Dobbs tonight?

  74. I already called dibs on the moon.

  75. They’re going to have trouble getting people onto the show now. Unless they agree with Kennedy.

    Or maybe people are used to this sort of tactic so it won’t make a difference.

    1. I was thinking about that. Is Kennedy told to act this way? Is it her show?

      I’m just not buying this strategy.

      1. IT is totally her show. Matt and Kmele are sidekicks.

        1. Definitely. Kennedy has a reputation as “tv personality,” that Matt and Kmele do not.

    2. I don’t have a problem with her anger, hell, it turns me on. I am just mad she didn’t tear that smarmy little commie a new ass also.

      1. There’s a way to do it because she’s tearing into people who know their discipline better than she does.

        Granted, she can have her dissenting view (which I have no problem with) but some respect for the guest I think is important for the show.

        But that’s me.

        1. This and this

        2. Tearing into your guest like that is very Sean Hannity and very off putting to most people. She should listen to some of Russ Roberts’ interviews on EconTalk for an idea of how to be a better host.

  76. But who is going to figure out a way to clone an astronaut technician over and over again to fun the mining facility?

    1. I think I saw that in some movie.

    2. Convicts dude, don’t you read any SciFi?

  77. Be careful, Christopher.

  78. What exactly is the overarching theme of tonight’s show? I’m confused.

    1. Kennedy’s pointless aggressiveness.

      1. This answer seems most accurate.

      – then again I just showed up in the middle of her going ballistic @9:30 so I’m just guessing

    3. When Kennedys Attack.

      1. Screaming Kennedys.

    4. Talk show anarchy–in practice!

  79. Maybe there was no thread tonight because Kennedy was such a bitch that they cancelled the show?

  80. The moon is going to build a border fence.

    1. Why not blast the illegal immigrants into space? Or only grant citizenship to those willing to serve in rocket labor camps?

  81. The next big thing? Space avatars.

  82. This guy is just as lacklusterly enthusiastic about his plan as the last guy was of his.

  83. My Lord, can you imagine Kennedy at her kid’s school?

    1. SWAT was called after Kennedy showed up to discuss her snowflake’s unjustified B-.

  84. “Tonight on The Independents: Kennedy will talk to a bald guy. The she will talk to another bald guy. Then she will scream at a bald guy.”

    1. An improvement over talking to that long haired punk guy.

  85. “It was later discovered that a producer, while adjusting equipment before the show, accidentally dialed the “BITCH” knob up to 100 without realizing…”

  86. Customization would be more work for teachers…

    They’re not being paid to work.

    1. Customization would be more work for teachers…

      Home-schooling for the win.

  87. BTW I’m too tired to do the fucking apparel-review; I just got back from UVA vs Duke lacrosse game and need to eat pizza and drink beer now. Lets have a Haiku instead:

    Kennedy in Blue
    Kmele and Matt Look Bitchin’
    Some Yelling Happened

    1. Well if Reason is mailing it in tonight you might as well, too.

    2. Also = Duke will win the NCAA champ again this year. They look great.

  88. Why not record all the lectures? Most college professors just recycle the same crap year after year.

  89. How long until they run out of viable topics for a Friday-themed show?

    1. I’d like to see a single guest interviewed in-depth for the hour.

      1. This is not the Tom Snyder show

      2. That guest? Geraldo Rivera.

      3. Are you nuts? Kennedy and her “Girl-Talk!” interviews are a living nightmare. I’d rather they just had McInnes on every night getting drunk and yelling obscenities.

        1. I assume Kmele will do the talking and Kennedy will interject with derailing comments.

      4. “”I’d like to see a single guest interviewed in-depth for the hour.””

        Khalid Sheik Mohammed

        He’ll beg for death at the end.

  90. Futurology is alive and well, though futurologists are almost always wrong. Still we listen, yearning for salvation from our human condition.

  91. Kennedy’s smile evaporated after like a split second and she went back to staring knives through the camera.

    Really, I think the ‘bitch knob’ theory isn’t too far wrong.

    1. Matt is terrified of her.

      1. Along with mice and frogs. He’s kind of a Nancy-boy.

      2. He clearly should be, after tonight.

  92. “Voting outside your party” and “All politicians are d-bags” conflict.

  93. “Engage people you disagree with.”

    Excellent suggestion, Kennedy!

    1. Exactly.

  94. A week ain’t gonna do it, Welch.

  95. I wish she’d mentioned the “all politicians are douchebags” thing to the kid on Wednesday. He needed to know that.

  96. What is this, Matt, Chicken Soup for the Political Soul?

  97. I disagree with everyone here.

  98. Kmele Foster wants to hand the election to [insert worst person in the world here].

    1. Kmele Foster wants to hand the election to Matt Welch?

      1. I thought that was Nicole.

  99. Matt voted for a Republican, once. Some candidate for dogcatcher back in California.

  100. Was it me, or was the show like cancelled or something?

    1. After Kennedy’s Wednesday “I’m gonna invite on my friends” and Friday’s “No more Mrs. Nice Hostess,” I think you might be on to something.

    2. I kinda thought so until Matt plugged the show as methadone for partisan political junkies. It would explain a “celebrity” interview episode followed by a kiss-off show from a pissed-off Kennedy.

    3. I got a weird undertone to the whole ending bit that sounded like “Uh, and THANKS FOR WATCHING (NOT! you fuckers)”

      Maybe someone had ‘a talk’ with them.

  101. “Hiatus” is the television term.

    1. What are we going to watch communally and comment on real-time, then?

      1. How about Shark Tank?

        1. Fuck yeah, I love that show.

      2. Megyn Kelly? Don’t even need to turn the sound on.

      3. We could have a live thread during Lou Dobbs.

        1. I’d almost as soon live-blog the State of the Union.

        2. “Dobbs’s Skin Tonight is *Extra* leathery; an almost Ostrich-like patina seems to develop around where his eye sockets…”

          No, maybe not.

          1. DOBBERS ASSEMBLE?

            Probably not.

      4. Fox News should have a show with Jana Winter and Mary Katharine Ham. I’m thinking they should wear latex fetish costumes and take turns spanking each other.

        1. I could make time to watch that.

  102. I spent most of the day cranking away on my single stage Forster. I finally found some brass and primers so I picked up 400 each of .41 magnum and 45 LC.

    I checked in here on and off during the day .
    I didn’t realize the time until 8:30, turned on the tv and there was Kennedy with her head spinning around and fire shooting out of her eyes.

    I am in agreement with Bam!, I would like longer, more in-depth interviews.

  103. You know who else enjoyed drinking from mugs?

    1. Anyone else think it a little odd that Germans apologize for Hitler by stifling free speech?

      1. “Hitler”-Who? NEVER HEARD OF THE GUY

  104. You guys are gluttons for punishment.

    I’m watching Bullitt.

    1. I’m watching The Girl Can’t Help It.

    1. We have those all over Louisiana. You can even buy daiquiris in to-go cups. In order for it to not be an open container they hand it to you with half of the paper still on the straw.

      1. I did that once.

        I felt like the fact I didn’t have rims on my car and Master P booming on the subwoofer made the experience less than it could have been

    2. Half the time they can’t hear the order correctly because of that staticky speaker thing the customer talks into.

      “I said Chateau Lafitte 1889, not Riesling 1875! And I wanted ketchup on my fries!”

  105. Anti-gay activist detained by Canadian authorities under hate speech law

    According to, the country blocked LaBarbera at the border under its “hate propaganda” law, which forbids the spread of misinformation and hate speech about protected groups, the type of defamatory speech that the Southern Poverty Law Center says is LaBarbera’s stock in trade.

    The group Intolerance Free Weyburn raised objections with the Canadian government over LaBarbera’s scheduled appearance at a Saskatchewan Pro-Life Association convention April 11 and 12. IFW’s Chris Brookes told the Canadian Broadcasting Company that LaBarbera has never tried to hide the anti-LGBT animus in his message.

    “Read some of the things he’s been saying, whether it’s on his Facebook or his Twitter, or his own personal website, and you realize just how much hatred is behind his message,” said Brookes.

    LaBarbera is set to deliver a talk on Saturday “about the interconnections between the pro-abortion and the gay agendas.”

    LaBarbera responded shrilly to the opposition, calling his critics “Canadian Homo-Marxists” who are conducting a “nefarious campaign to demonize” him and his organization.

    Free speech? What’s that, eh?

  106. ‘Sup motherfuckers!

    By reading through the thread, I take it The Independents is dead?

      1. Overruled. I’ll allow it.
        But you have a short leash, mr. Mulato.

        1. Thank you, your Honor.

          Now, Mr. d’Anconia, just exactly when did you stop beating your wife?

          1. When she stopped resisting. [/See my nice shiny badge]

  107. And only one story after the PM links?

    Maybe the federal storm troopers finally took down Reason?

    Anybody out there? Nick? Matt? Anyone?

    1. It’s the Friday before Good Friday.
      The Pagan’s last stand, as it were.

    2. Maybe a group of Canadian progressive terrorists have taken over Reason headquarters, Hans Gruber-style.

      1. “Yippie Kai-Yay, Moother fooker”

        1. HA! By a second, I got you

          1. But I brought the clip.

            I was robbed.

  108. By reading through the thread, I take it The Independents is dead?

    I’m surprised it has lasted this long.

  109. Maybe Fox Business Channel will replace The Independents with a reverse mortgage call-in show with Fonzi.


    2. I want to hear more about this robot insurance.

  110. Buzzfeed’s privilege list.

    How Privileged Are You?

    You live with 46 out of 100 points of privilege.

    You’re not privileged at all. You grew up with an intersectional, complicated identity, and life never let you forget it. You’ve had your fair share of struggles, and you’ve worked hard to overcome them. We do not live in an ideal world and you had to learn that the hard way. It is not your responsibility to educate those with more advantages than you, but if you decide you want to, go ahead and send them this quiz. Hopefully it will help.

    And I’m a straight white guy from a middle class family. It’s apparently heavily weighted towards atheists and those who won’t take charity from family in their 20s.

    1. So secular 20 something progs created a quiz to paint themselves as victims?

      I’m shocked! Shocked I tell you!

    2. 56, lower than I thought. I guess I got bonus points for hating myself.

      This is not a quiz, it’s a list of grievances.

      I find it funny that the statements assume you have a religion. Which is actually quite ethnocentric.

    3. You live with 48 out of 100 points of privilege.

      You’re not privileged at all. You grew up with an intersectional, complicated identity, and life never let you forget it. You’ve had your fair share of struggles, and you’ve worked hard to overcome them.

      How can this be? I’m a straight white anglo-saxon atheist. Must be a flaw in the test.

      1. So 48 out of 100 is not privileged at all, but:

        You live with 55 out of 100 points of privilege.

        You’re quite privileged. You’ve had a few struggles, but overall your life has been far easier than most. This is not a bad thing, nor is it something to be ashamed of. But you should be aware of your advantages and work to help others who don’t have them. Thank you for checking your privilege.

        What a difference 7 points makes!

      2. They put too many never/ever absolutist statements. What kind of person has been through middle school and not been called a fag at least once for example?

        1. Yeah. I was also called a n****r in middle school, IIRC (I am white).

          1. Though indeed, I have never been called a dyke. Unfortunate.

            I did know a guy whose surname was Dyke, though. He was a bit of an odd duck, and his head was too small for his shoulders.

    4. Ugh.

      Manda Caine

      College educated white heterosexual female here who grew up in an upper middle class family in the suburbs… Also victim of an abusive relationship and a rape, which resulted in feelings of depression and an eating disorder. I’m doing wonderfully now, but this quiz has a lot of different definitions of privilege and hopefully will open up discussion of who people are and where they come from– before we label them, judge them, or treat them unfairly.

      Gabi Wojtyna ? Top Commenter ? Works at Oberlin College

      Torrey Nicole Marilyn Mercer I think you are struggling to understand what privilege is. Manda Caine has privilege still–she has white privilege and straight privilege. She is also oppressed–she faces ableism and sexism, at the very least. Privilege does not erase the other issues you face–privilege just means that you gain some societal advantages (and don’t have to deal with the disadvantages) of certain social institutions (such as racism, sexism, heterosexism, classism, etc). You can still have problems because of something you have privilege in, or if you have privilege (most people have some form of privilege!), it is just not a problem caused by the way society is set up. 🙂

      …of course she works at fucking Oberlin.

      1. Jessica Reptar Greene ? Follow ? Top Commenter

        There should have been a check saying, “I am offended by this quiz.” All these complaints are so dumb, especially the “just because I’m white, I’m privileged?” ones. Of course being white is a privilege! Just because you are also gay, schizophrenic, poor, and atheist doesn’t erase the privilege you receive from being white. That’s why the quiz represents all different types of privilege. I’m a queer black female and still had 36 things that are considered privileges. It’s a simple tally. It’s not just about being white and it’s not at all saying having privilege means that you have no problems. You’re all just taking it personally for no reason.

        So, does she identify as a cartoon lizard?

    5. 39, didn’t even read the paragraph they gave. Figured it was all about how terrible I am.

  111. In the PM links, somebody asked how bad the Heartbleed bug is.

    I will give my answer as a well-informed amateur:

    From the perspective of security experts, it is very very bad. Bruce Schneier has called it an 11 out of 10.

    However, a “10” in the eyes of security experts is probably less scary than what a “10” would be in the eyes of the general public, because the general public seems to view hacking as some kind of dark magic. In terms of how the laity sees hacking, I think most would put it at around a 7/10. So very bad instead of very very bad.

    The gist of the bug is this: there is a very popular software library called OpenSSL. The Heartbleed bug has been in it for about two years.

    How popular is “very popular”? The 66% of “active websites” stat is sensationalistic bullshit spread by clueless/lazy journalists. The source of that misinterpreted stat puts the actual number at 17.5%.

    So, that’s a lot, and yes, you should change your passwords (though I admit I have only gotten to a few so far).

    1. Now, as to the actual effect of the bug: an attacker can send a message to an affected site (or mail server) and get sent back up to 64 kilobytes of random-ish data residing in the memory (as in RAM, not hard or solid-state drives) of the server. The process can be repeated indefinitely and there’s no way for a site to detect that the attack has been carried out or what data was leaked, unless for some reason they were logging all outgoing data (unlikely).

      From that rises two main concerns:

      1. The direct leak of user data. If emails, passwords, CC numbers, etc. reside in the RAM of a server at the time of attack, they can be sent back to the attacker if they happen to be in the random-ish 64K chunk of data sent back.

      Please note that I emphasize in the RAM because this attack doesn’t let a hacker steal data just sitting around on a database (like an SQL injection might) unless it is cached. In most cases, the data that is likely to be stolen is that which was submitted via a form during or shortly before the attack. This is why some have recommended taking a few “days off” — because it is (largely) dependent on you interacting with a vulnerable server.

      1. This is also why I put it on a 7/10 from a regular Joe’s perspective, since to him 11/10 would probably imply taking total control. In this case, the attacker is only exerting limted control — albeit of a sensitive area — and it is untargeted — the attacker gets a random-ish chunk of whatever happens to be in RAM at the time (which could be gibberish). He doesn’t get to tell the server “give me all the credit card numbers”.

        2. The leak of TLS (aka SSL, aka [incorrectly] HTTPS) private keys. If the OpenSSL service is being run on a particular server, it is almost certainly because the website (or email server, chat server, etc.) is secured via TLS, which depends on a “certificate” and its associated private key to authenticate its identity and to encrypt communications.

        There was some debate over how viable it is to use this attack to steal the private key; however, a company called CloudFlare set up a challenge with a $10K award for stealing the private key from one of their (test) servers, and it was claimed after 3 hours.

        Once the key is stolen, it can be used to impersonate the site or to decrypt previous communications unless a feature called perfect forward secrecy is being used. It usually isn’t. The latter is not too much of a concern with respect to run-of-the-mill criminals; it is more of an intelligence agency thing, since they are the ones hoarding tapped communications. The former is a pretty big concern.

        1. However, this second problem is much easier for sites to deal with than the first. Once they apply the update (a fix was released at the time the bug was disclosed) they can request a new private key from their certificate authority, invalidating the potentially-leaked one in the process, making it useless to anyone not sitting on a pile of intercepted communications (like an intel agency).

          1. I still need to revoke my certs.

      2. Carl, you’re gonna love that link above you.

        1. Robot insurance? I got mine! its how I sleep safe at night.

    2. You saw the Bloomberg NSA using heart bleed story, right? Is that still standing?

      I’m with Schneier on “this one goes to 11”, and got home at 2330 last night to prove it.

      1. I saw it but only read a tiny bit. The “deficiencies of open source” bit made me throw up in my mouth. Also stuff about the “OpenSSL protocol”.

        It’s too bad journalists have no same wrt covering things they no nothing about.

        The NSA has semi-formally denied it.

        I am pretty positive they have used it between now and when it was disclosed to the public.

        I am not so sure that they had beforehand. Whenever a bug like this comes out, somebody says “well OF COURSE” the NSA knew about it beforehand, especially post-Snowden. There is a non-trivial chance they did, sure. But bugs are a lot more obvious after they’ve been discovered (that’s why they’re bugs).

        1. The “deficiencies of open source” bit made me throw up in my mouth. Also stuff about the “OpenSSL protocol”.

          Same here.

          The NSA has semi-formally denied it.


          Oh, and for interested readers who want the easy explanation of the bug, xkcd nailed it

        2. I entirely buy that they knew it before it was public. That said, I haven’t read their denials yet.

  112. “Yippie Kai-Yay, Moother fooker eh?”

  113. Sandy vag reviews Game of Thrones:

    The strangest part of this is that the creator of “Game of Thrones”?George R.R. Martin, who wrote the series of five massive novels (so far) on which the series is based?describes being conscientious objector during the Vietnam War who says he is opposed to war and wrote this story to show how ugly it is.

    Izzat so? Then why does he feel compelled to write about war and killing and murder and blood, in hundreds of intricate varieties, for ten thousand pages? This is a bit like E.L. James saying she wrote the 50 Shades books as a warning against unbridled sexuality.

    Read the rest for epic projection and conservative law and order bootlicking like the following:

    As for the rest of us, you might notice the popularity of police procedurals, courtroom dramas, and medical mystery shows?all of which show us the forces of civilization beating back violence and vanquishing ignorance. As a general rule, these shows don’t celebrate the murderers; they celebrate the people who put them behind bars.

    1. Maybe this is why Martin was a conscientious objector: not that he had no interest in violence but that he was, judging from his subsequent work, a little too interested in it.

      So so retarded.

    2. How are you supposed to show how ugly war is without showing the ugliness?

      Btw, it sounds plausible that Martin did somewhat enjoy writing the violent parts of the book. He’s a man after all. (sorry to be stereotypical, but you guys do have the testosterone) But who cares? He’s a fiction writer. His job is to be entertaining, not a liberal role model for ideological purity.

      1. It was written by a conservative, which is one reason why it is hilarious, he goes on about how GoT is liberal nihilism. People have posted articles by liberals complaining about how GoT is conservative propaganda too.

        Maybe, just maybe, they should all shut the fuck up because it’s just a goddamn book/tv series.

  114. On the Buzzfeed privelege test, I scored (drumroll:

    you live with 21 out of 100 points of privilege.

    You’re underprivileged. The world is not a fair or ideal place and you know that because you grew up with several identities that the world is not kind to. You had a lot of challenges to overcome simply to get on a level playing field with most people in the world. It is not your job to educate the world about its injustices, but if you choose to, go ahead and send them this quiz. Hopefully it will help.

    OK, proggy trolls! Your high priests have spoken and I am now free to self-righteously lecture you.

  115. police procedurals, courtroom dramas, and medical mystery shows?all of which show us the forces of civilization beating back violence and vanquishing ignorance.


    1. I am so very tired of seeing the police portrayed as heroes in TV and film-especially ones about a cop fighting a drug lord.

      1. I’m so very tired of movies portraying police as a couple of uniforms showing up to a suspect’s house and knocking on the front door.

  116. How’s about a show about B.L.M. enforcement officers battling evil militiamen in the desert. What to name it?

  117. Sounds like sokme pretty serious business dude.

  118. “But it would be a mistake to vote for this Bush, because like Mitt Romney, he cannot win a general election.”

    When it comes to my criteria for voting for someone, the lowest priority I think I could possibly have is whether or not I think they can “win”. In other words, whether or not I think they can win due to numbers is something that doesn’t even hardly enter my mind, if it does at all.

    Take Ron Paul for example. I supported him all the way up to the very end of his campaign. When I went around campaigning for him I had someone tell me that they would consider voting for him, but they didn’t think he could win. I told him that I don’t base my vote upon whether or not I think someone can win.

    1. ” I told him that I don’t base my vote upon whether or not I think someone can win.”

      So you don’t partially, at least, based your willingness to take or do a job based on the salary?

      And you would fall in love with a Hollywood Starlet who you craved even if it was nearly impossible that you would hook up?

      Or, you would get in a jet unconfident of where it was going and whether or not it would even land at the other end?

      Just wondering how you consider this stance reasonable? You and I were instilled with intelligence so that when we, like the mouse, hit the wall of a the maze we learn our way back around and correct. You seem to be saying that if we like the color of the wall we bump into that getting to the food doesn’t matter at all – and that’s a principled stand?

      NOT. IMHO. False pride, my friend.
      Goals are what drives mankind forward.

      1. I kinda get the feeling that, you too, wish that you could twist my arm until it hurts so bad that I capitulate into voting for who it is that you want me to vote for. Well, if I am going to vote under the guise of representative democracy, then I will vote for whoever it is that I want to vote for regardless of whatever (unjustified) feelings of guilt(or whatever it is you’re trying to make me feel) someone might try and throw as a yoke around me. It’s not going to work. I have nothing to feel guilty about.

        In other words, it’s my vote, and no one elses. Don’t like the fact that it’s my vote? Too bad! -Molon Labe- Come and try and take it from me bitch!

      2. Btw craginmass, if you want to attack my stance as being unprincipled, how about you actually attack my principles? You can’t do that because you don’t know what principles I based my Ron Paul vote upon. So, you made up a straw mouse maze argument. Pathetic.

  119. People voted either for or against Obama?no reflection on how good or bad a candidate Romney was.

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