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Civil Liberties

Feminist Author Katha Pollitt Advocates Banning Sex Work Because PATRIARCHY

Elizabeth Nolan Brown | 4.3.2014 5:05 PM

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Large image on homepages | Sex Worker Open University/Facebook
(Sex Worker Open University/Facebook)

Poet and second-wave feminist darling Katha Pollitt penned a predictably bad piece about sex work for The Nation recently. Pollitt is upset about what she perceives as widespread leftist support for legalized prostitution. This is, in itself, a strange perception—I've followed sex worker activism and attitudes for years, and I am far from alone in noticing a recent surge in anti–sex work passion among progressives. But more problematic/annoying are the reasons Pollitt gives for criminalizing prostitution, reasons which turn on an unsavory belief that restricting liberty is justified if it leads people to better (read: more progressive) views.

Pollitt's opposition seems to hinge mainly on three things:

1) Some people do not want to sell sex and would rather sell pie.

2) Men she knows (and men you know, too!) might visit prostitutes if it's legal.

3) PATRIARCHY.

To the first point, Pollitt notes that it's not "just prudery or fear of arrest or attack or stigma that keeps the vast majority of women working straight jobs. Maybe there's a difference between a blowjob and a slice of pie."

No maybe about it, lady, there is definitely a difference between a blow job and a slice of pie. It's neat that there's room in this world for both, and that there are people willing to both sell and buy both. Waitresses who don't want to sell blow jobs don't have to, sex workers who don't want to bus tables don't have to, and neither of them have to sell insurance. Women who don't want to sell blow jobs or pie or insurance, meanwhile, can find different means of making a livng entirely. The fact that not everybody wants to do a particular job seems like a very silly reason to think that job should be banned.

Would many sex workers choose other work if they could? No doubt. (I'll bet many coal miners and migrant farm laborers would, too.) And sex work supporters acknowledge this. It's completely untrue that popular sex work activists—the kind Pollitt pooh-poohs for having Twitter accounts and a choice in what they do—don't talk about sex worker exploitation. No one is under any illusions that all sex workers are Ashley Dupre or Belle Knox. But, as Noah Berlatsky commented on Pollitt's article, the key question is how best to reduce that exploitation?

"Is it to tell sex workers that there's something wrong with them for doing this work rather than a service job (which does seem to be where your argument leads)?" Bertlatsky asks. "Or is it to try to give them more rights and more power?"

Giving sex workers more rights, however, would also mean giving johns less punishment—a point which Pollitt expects women to find scary. Have you thought about the fact that men you know might visit prostitutes, young ladies? "This faceless man could be anyone: your colleague, your boyfriend, your father, your husband," writes Pollitt. "Theoretically, if it's OK to be a sex worker, it's OK to be a john….Do pro–sex work feminists really think that, though?"

I can't speak for all pro–sex work feminists, but I imagine that most do, in fact, realize that it takes two to tango for money. Which means, yes, it's okay to be a john. Yes, monetized sexual relations with another consenting adult are "OK" no matter which side of the cash flow you're on.

But, but, but…don't we know this will perpetuate patriarchy? "When feminists argue that sex work should be normalized," writes Pollitt, "they accept male privilege they would attack in any other area."

I'm not sure what Pollitt means by "normalized." I've never seen any feminists arguing that prostitution should be the predominant sexual paradigm or that scores more people should go into it. We simply think that prohibition of sex work creates more problems than it solves, that adults should be free to engage in sexual contracts with one another as they see fit, and that driving sex work underground leads to more exploitative conditions for those who are coerced or forced into it. If that's "normalization," sure, but it wouldn't be the first term I'd choose. Semantics aside, the fact that a practice may contribute to troubling gender expectations simply isn't justification to prohibit it.

"Maybe men would be better partners, in bed and out of it, if they couldn't purchase that fantasy," Pollitt notes, as if making men better lovers is good enough reason to lock women away for offering hand jobs. She goes on to worry that destigmatizing prostitution promotes the view "that sex is something women have and men get (do I hear 'rape culture,' anyone?), that men are entitled to sex without attracting a partner."

First, imagine how silly this would sound in any other context (legalizing street vendors promotes the attitude that some people are entitled to soft pretzels without the work of baking them themselves…). Second, men paying women for sex has nothing to do with "rape culture." Rape culture rests on men thinking they're owed or deserve (free) sex from any or all women, not men spending their money to purchase sex from women who have given consent. Regardless, I want no part of promoting certain values—no matter how desirable—through coercive force.

"The current way of seeing sex work is all about liberty—but what about equality?" Pollitt concludes. Liberty, however, is an essential component of equality, and restricting the liberty of those engaged in (buying or selling) sex doesn't get us any closer to a more equal or less sexist society. It just restricts liberty. Hey, at least nobody's dad or husband is visiting a whore without punishment, though, right?

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Elizabeth Nolan Brown is a senior editor at Reason.

Civil LibertiesNanny StateSex WorkFeminismProgressivesLibertarianism
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  1. pan fried wylie   11 years ago

    Waitresses who don't want to sell blow jobs don't have to

    Yet another mandate missing from obamacare.

    1. pan fried wylie   11 years ago

      Was in such a hurry I didn't even finish reading that sentence: and neither of them have to sell insurance

      But they gotta buy it! *rimshot*

  2. AlmightyJB   11 years ago

    White Culture Rape Privilege is boring

  3. silent v   11 years ago

    there is definitely a difference between a blow job and a slice of pie.

    I believe this was the original movie pitch for American Pie

    1. I. B. McGinty   11 years ago

      I was disappointed to read on and see that the author was talking about pie and not "pie."

  4. Calidissident   11 years ago

    How is assuming that women are delicate creatures who can't make decisions for themselves not an example of patriarchy?

    1. GotOutOfCali   11 years ago

      If, somehow, Pollitt reads these comments, you might be sued for making her head explode.

  5. Caleb Turberville   11 years ago

    Here's the problem with radical feminism:

    It's okay for them to have all these kooky beliefs. As long as they keep it to themselves, it doesn't bother me. But they've decided to enforce their Women's Studies 101 ideals without any empirical evidence or the slightest shred of logic.

    It's basically become a religion.

    1. Tony   11 years ago

      Same goes for your stupid ass bullshit. Perhaps if they just called it "freedom" it would be OK to impose on everyone?

      1. R C Dean   11 years ago

        Freedom isn't "imposed" on anyone. Its their natural state.

        Removing coercion from someone's life isn't an "imposition."

        Naturally, if they want to voluntarily surrender their freedoms (but only theirs, not mine, thanks), they are, well, free to do so.

        1. Tony   11 years ago

          (You're not actually selling freedom. You just call it that.)

        2. The Laconic   11 years ago

          Well, that's 30 seconds of your life you'll never get back. Well done, RC.

        3. The Laconic   11 years ago

          Lately I've been picturing Tony as Daffyd Thomas from Little Britain.

          Try it, it'll take the edge off.

          1. gimmeasammich   11 years ago

            ...Computer says no...

      2. Restoras   11 years ago

        Cherlene: Who the hell drilled my box?
        Archer: So we're just done with phrasing, right, that's not a thing anymore?

      3. Caleb Turberville   11 years ago

        Freedom is a rational de fault option when empirical evidence has not been presented to the contrary.

        If you want to enforce a stupid law like those against prosecution, you should have the integrity to do some actual research and to argue logically instead of rigidly conforming to radical feminist doctrine.

        1. Caleb Turberville   11 years ago

          *prostitution

      4. pan fried wylie   11 years ago

        Perhaps if they just called it "freedom" it would be OK to impose on everyone?

        Hey it worked for obocare.

      5. Ragnarok   11 years ago

        Why do you even post here? By now even you should be able to remember the standard response to your statement.

        "Tony Logic: Not imposing upon people == imposing upon people".

        You should easily have enough data to recreate thousands of conversations between a drooling moron and libertarians.

        1. Tony   11 years ago

          I'll keep posting until you guys realize that what you advocate is a) a complete upheaval of society that few people actually want, and b) because of that and for many other reasons, will result in a loss of a huge amount of personal freedom. Sometimes not imposing on one person is to impose on another. And you guys make sure to take it to its most obvious extreme to prove me right--you're overwhelmingly concerned about the supposed lacking freedom of those who would do the imposing.

          1. Anonymous Coward   11 years ago

            a complete upheaval of society that few people actually want,

            Ah Tony, the voice of the proles. How I've missed you.

            because of that and for many other reasons, will result in a loss of a huge amount of personal freedom.

            Allowing people to trade money for sexual intercourse is a loss of personal freedom? How wise and poignant you are.

            Sometimes not imposing on one person is to impose on another.

            Vagueness? From mah Tony w/o spaces? What is going on here? I've always known Tony w/o spaces to be the clearest of thinkers.

            And you guys make sure to take it to its most obvious extreme to prove me right

            When did a straightforward exchange of goods for services become "extreme"?

            1. Tony   11 years ago

              Around the time unicorns farted themselves into existence. Life is not as simple as you need it to be to understand it. An unregulated market is a market in which many, probably most, are exploited while a tiny few run away with the loot. It has always been thus and won't change because you label it freedom.

              1. Calidissident   11 years ago

                "An unregulated market is a market in which many, probably most, are exploited while a tiny few run away with the loot. It has always been thus and won't change because you label it freedom."

                Then it shouldn't be hard to prove this, should it?

                1. fish   11 years ago

                  Then it shouldn't be hard to prove this, should it?

                  .......hey where did Tony go....he was here just a second ago.

                2. Tony   11 years ago

                  It's been done, but you guys are pretty steadfast in the belief that you are entitled to your own facts.

              2. Anonymous Coward   11 years ago

                An unregulated market is a market in which many, probably most, are exploited while a tiny few run away with the loot.

                Vague nonsense and Marxist crap. I R DISAPPOINT, Tony w/o spaces.

                It has always been thus and won't change because you label it freedom.

                Answer the original question, you gaping sphincter: How is a voluntary exchange of money for sexual intercourse a loss of personal freedom?

                1. Tony   11 years ago

                  It's not, necessarily. But it can be if the sex worker is in that position not purely out of choice.

                  The flaw in your outlooks is in assuming choice exists rather than making sure it does.

                  1. Anonymous Coward   11 years ago

                    It's not, necessarily. But it can be if the sex worker is in that position not purely out of choice.

                    At least you are willing to concede in general. But the same thing can be said of any other set of facts in which one party forces another to engage in activity against the latter's will.

                    The flaw in your outlooks is in assuming choice exists rather than making sure it does.

                    So... everybody is being coerced and they just don't know it? Darth Cheney's powers are great indeed.

                  2. Lost_In_Translation   11 years ago

                    What part of black market don't you understand. Just because you say something is illegal doesn't make it not happen. It just means participants (both coerced and not) do not have any legal recourse for violations.

                    But I digress...trollolololololololol

              3. wadair   11 years ago

                It has always been thus and won't change because you label it freedom.

                You don't like freedom, do you Tony? It's exploitive because it comes with responsibility that you just don't want to accept. It's not an unregulated market that bothers you, it's that freedom allows others to succeed and that makes you feel like a loser. So you want to "regulate" them down to your level.

            2. Juice   11 years ago

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiClUPVNC8Y

              I can't stop thinking about Tony.

          2. Hyperion   11 years ago

            that few people actually want

            Then why are you always peeing your underoos in fear of us?

            Don't worry Tony, we will not force your mommy to stop letting you live in her basement and use her internet. We just don't care, you're irrelevant. IRRELEVANT, loser.

          3. IceTrey   11 years ago

            "a) a complete upheaval of society that few people actually want"

            Never heard of the American Revolution?

            1. Tony   11 years ago

              "that few people actually want"

              Catch that part?

              And that was over, like, a tax, not the huge questions you want to settle and enforce the answers to, like whether government should exist.

              1. TransVanginalMesh   11 years ago

                "And that was over, like, a tax"

                Oh come the fuck on, how can anyone take you seriously after this?

                What's the point of trolling if the stuff you say is so far beyond the pale that it's this obvious.

                1. Tony   11 years ago

                  Okay at its most philosophically haughty it was over the right of people* (*landowning white males) to be able to have representation in their own government. Still not as big a change as you would impose.

                  But it's not an imposition at all despite being a vast and unwanted change to everyone's lives, because it's called freedom.

                  1. TransVanginalMesh   11 years ago

                    Oh, I see, you misunderstand, "how can anyone take you seriously after this?" was a rhetorical question.

      6. RannedPall   11 years ago

        We need air support, and we need it now. Roll in strike package bravo on marauding troll, I authenticate code named life, liberty, and property. Attention all commentariat, this is a danger close mission.

      7. John C. Randolph   11 years ago

        How the fuck is anyone imposing on you by NOT putting a gun to your head?

        Really, Rent Boy: you've said some stupid shit before, but this is one of your all-time dumbest.

        -jcr

        1. Tony   11 years ago

          Because behind your bullshit platitudes is a tax and regulatory structure that leaves us with sweatshops and robber barons.

          1. Sam Grove   11 years ago

            Tony, I see you've completely bought into a particular interpretation of history.

            Would that be situational stupidity?

          2. Hyperion   11 years ago

            I for one am sure that Tony wouldn't even make a decent monocle polisher.

            So, don't worry, Tony, we won't force you to work in our great smoke belching factories or mines, because we know you are too lazy, and unable to learn any useful skills.

            You are safe. Stay in your mommies basement and STFU.

          3. Soros' Wank-noose   11 years ago

            I think someone's been watching too much Fist of the North Star...

          4. John C. Randolph   11 years ago

            Your ignorance of economics is at the heart of your idiocy.

            The reason people went to work in sweatshops is because it was better than subsistence farming. The reason we don't have sweatshops in the USA today is the increase in the marginal productivity of labor brought about by..... CAPITAL INVESTMENT.

            -jcr

            1. Tony   11 years ago

              No, capital investment did not improve the quality of life of workers, at least not intentionally (meaning it could go the other way if that's what's profitable). That took very hard-won victories by the labor movement, all of which you want to do away with.

              1. John C. Randolph   11 years ago

                Of course it did, you dumb shit. Why do you think South Koreans live better than the norks? Why do you think the American standard of living exceeded everyone else in the world until FDR fucked it up?

                hard-won victories by the labor movement,

                Bullshit. The labor movement just took credit for it.

                -jcr

              2. SusanM   11 years ago

                But it was Obamacare that killed the 40/hr workweek...

          5. Lost_In_Translation   11 years ago

            "Because behind your bullshit platitudes is a tax and regulatory structure that leaves us with sweatshops and robber barons."

            LOL, want to rephrase that?

  6. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

    Sure, I wouldn't prosecute the adult, voluntary sex workers who don't interfere with a spouse's rights (eg, having sex with some other woman's husband).

    I would only prosecute hookers, madams and johns in the other cases - child prostitutes, trafficking, sex slavery, and interference with the marital relation.

    1. Andrew S.   11 years ago

      "Interference with the marital relation"? Huh?

      Cause for somebody to be kicked in the balls, and probably divorced, but arrested?

      1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

        That's a dispute over what's pragmatic, and about civil vs. criminal sanctions. I don't think there's a *right* to violate one's marriage obligations or help someone else do so.

        1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

          Oh, and cases where there's risk of disease.

          And zoning.

          So if you're not trafficking in minors, not coercing women, not posing a risk of disease, not interfering with the marital relation, and not locating in areas zoned residential, then you shouldn't be prosecuted.

          1. Heroic Mulatto   11 years ago

            And just how do you propose they enforce the "not interfering with marital relations" requirement? Prospective johns have to sign a wavier or something?

            1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

              Maybe there's a pragmatic argument against prosecution, but not a rights-based argument, I don't think there is a right to betray one's spouse or help someone else do so.

              1. Heroic Mulatto   11 years ago

                By prosecution, do you mean in a criminal court or civil?

                1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

                  I meant there's room for debate on whether criminal prosecution is practical when a prostitute services a married person.

                  1. Heroic Mulatto   11 years ago

                    Ok. I still don't see how anything you advocate is different from the existing tort action of "alienation of affections".

                    1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

                      I would say criminal conversation,

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_conversation

                      but that underlines my point that there isn't a *right* to betray one's spouse *or* help someone else do so.

                    2. Pl?ya Manhattan.   11 years ago

                      What if the wife joins in?

                    3. shamalam   11 years ago

                      All I can say is, Seymour Dorothy Fleming was the kind of girl a fella likes to date!

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.....hy_Fleming

                    4. shamalam   11 years ago

                      Note to you lawyers in North Carolina: I smell some "deep pockets"!

                      " In Smith v. Lee, 2007 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 78987, the Federal District Court for the Western District of North Carolina noted that the question of whether an employer could be held liable for an affair conducted by an employee on a business trip was still unsettled in North Carolina."
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_conversation

                    5. neoteny   11 years ago

                      That link made me learn a new word: candaulism. Thank you!

              2. Sudden   11 years ago

                The prostitute would have no legal culpability for such a breach of the marital contract.

                The offending party is the one that is a party to the contract. No one outside that contract has any liability or responsibility for recompense to any party to that contract.

                1. KB Check Release   11 years ago

                  ^ This

                  And only this. I think prostitution is pretty disgusting.

                  So are a lot of things.

                  Hookers didn't take vows, spouses did.

              3. Lost_In_Translation   11 years ago

                Wait, so what if someone cheats for free? Is monetary exchange the only thing that makes it a crime?

          2. np   11 years ago

            No, absolutely wrong. There is no *right* whatsoever to transform a contract into slavery. What you are proposing is a positive right, not a negative one.

            Rights come from self-ownership, not contract. As such, contract enforcement can only be predicated based on exchange property. A mere agreement--whether verbally or on paper--does not a right make.

            When an artist signs up for a recording label, and he decides to renege and leave early. He pays back the money that the label gives him and the money for the opportunity cost (that the record label could have used on some other non-reneging artist), BUT that does not mean the contract allows the studio to make a slave of the artist, nor does it in any way prevent another studio to lure the artist away.

            Likewise, a marriage contract is predicated on the exchange of property i.e. bank accounts, land, home, etc. and those assets are what can be acted on in contract violation. No one has sold his/her own self in marriage.

            But Eddie, you don't believe in self-ownership do you?

            1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

              "No one has sold his/her own self in marriage.

              "But Eddie, you don't believe in self-ownership do you?"

              Do you? Because you seem unwilling to allow people to voluntarily make marital commitments, if these commitments involve perpetuity and exclusivity.

              So you would impair their right to contract, in the name of autonomy.

              1. Tejicano   11 years ago

                Why does everybody have to ascribe to your ideal marital contract which must include exclusivity?

                It is possible to stay married, provide support, raise kids, but still have sex outside the relationship if that is the only venue for sex left open.

                I am not saying this is optimal but too often the real world is not optimal and we have to deal with reality.

        2. Mellow Kitty   11 years ago

          Christ Eddie, what planet do you live on? Should businesses that stay open on Sunday be sued for helping people violate the sanctity of the Sabbath?

          1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

            The Sabbath is a religious institution, marriage exists independently of any particular religion.

            1. Agammamon   11 years ago

              The *sexual* requirements of marriage do NOT however.

              Hell, adultery isn't even a crime anymore in many parts of the country.

              1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

                I think the fidelity part exists across a whole variety of religions and philosophies.

            2. Mellow Kitty   11 years ago

              The sexual rules of conduct in marital relationships do not exist, in any meaningful sense, independently of religion.

              1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

                I don't think you're being fair to our atheist brothers and sisters. I think they are generally aware that adultery is a wrong thing.

                1. Apatheist ?_??   11 years ago

                  It's a wrong thing and a violation of a contract with your spouse. Criminal or civil sanctions against a third party is absurd, they are not a party to the contract.

                  1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

                    Marriage is more than a contract, it is a relation deserving legal protection. That's why many states still have laws against criminal conversation and alienation of affection.

                    1. Apatheist ?_??   11 years ago

                      If by many you mean North Carolina, then sure.

                    2. The Immaculate Trouser   11 years ago

                      Eh. I see where you're coming from, Eddie, but -- even from a purely pragmatic POV -- it makes little sense to put the onus of contract enforcement on a third party which is not part of the contract (or relation) and which is not coercing either of the two parties into breaching the contract.

                      What do you think will be more likely to change the behavior of a potential cheater: the likelihood that some hooker he barely knows will be deprived of life/liberty/property, or the likelihood that he will be deprived of property in the event that he is caught cheating with her?

                      The answer seems quite obvious to me, and the desireability of enforcement lacks a case for how such enforcement would lead to the desired ends.

                    3. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

                      Perhaps it would be impractical. If so, give the hookers an exemption from prosecution on pragmatic grounds. But I don't see it as an issue of civil liberties.

        3. Applederry   11 years ago

          If you want there to be penalties for infidelity in your marriage contract that's your choice, but the hooker is a third party not subject to your contract.

          1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

            She's doing the equivalent of receiving stolen property.

            1. Hugh Akston   11 years ago

              "Are these balls stolen?"

            2. Applederry   11 years ago

              Oh, my apologies. I was not aware I was speaking to the local retard.

              *Ahem*

              Why yes, Billy, it is perfectly reasonable to force your personal social obligations onto complete strangers with the threat of government force! You're so smart! And you speak so well!

              1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

                Yes, marriage is simply a matter of personal opinion. Just because a husband and wife have mutually pledged their lifetime fidelity to each other doesn't mean there exists any kind of social institution deserving of third-party recognition!

              2. Elizabeth Nolan Brown   11 years ago

                "...it is perfectly reasonable to force your personal social obligations onto complete strangers with the threat of government force!"

                Yeah. It got unexpectedly weird in here.

            3. The Laconic   11 years ago

              Somebody bookmark this thread. We'll want to refer to it later.

              1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

                Why?

                1. Pl?ya Manhattan.   11 years ago

                  You know why. You just started throwing retard cake everywhere.

                  1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

                    If retards *want* cake, why would they throw it? Wouldn't they eat it? Unless...unless it's not the thrower who's the retard.

            4. JW   11 years ago

              Look, Eddie, just because the hookers have blacklisted you, doesn't mean we all have to suffer.

              1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

                That's different, it's because they don't like wearing the Margaret Thatcher costumes I bring for them.

                1. JW   11 years ago

                  They're OK with role-playing. It's all of your crying during the pegging session, Eddie. It creeps them out.

        4. pan fried wylie   11 years ago

          I don't think there's a *right* to violate one's marriage obligations or help someone else do so.

          How does that position square with divorce and the lawyers who make it happen?

          1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

            It doesn't. Thank you for raising that point.

    2. Tejicano   11 years ago

      So how about when the wife no longer wants to "fulfill her marital duties" and gives hubby money to get his rocks of elsewhere? (BT:Didn't DT)

      What if the wife simply doesn't want to help or even discuss it? Is the man's only course of action divorce? Sounds like a nice way to do things wen there's kids involved.

      Your black and white world is childish.

    3. Knutsack   11 years ago

      What about non-sex workers that interfere with "marital relations"? Does any infidelity rise to the level of a crime?

  7. AlmightyJB   11 years ago

    Also, false choices. They can sell blow jobs AND pies. I'm actually wondering why no one's come up with that as a business model.

    1. Andrew S.   11 years ago

      Pvt. Joe Bowers: Man, I could really go for a Starbucks, y'know?
      Frito: I don't really think we have time for a handjob, Joe.

      1. Elizabeth Nolan Brown   11 years ago

        +1 for the 'Idiocracy' quote

    2. Elizabeth Nolan Brown   11 years ago

      One stop blowjob and pie shop. Who wants to get a kickstarter page going? 😉

      1. SugarFree   11 years ago

        Call it "Cream Filling."

    3. DEADBEEF   11 years ago

      Close enough.

  8. SugarFree   11 years ago

    SWERF: Sex Worker Exclusionary Radical Feminist

    Watching progressives fight fills me with joy.

    1. Paul.   11 years ago

      Why do I always feel the collateral damage?

      1. SugarFree   11 years ago

        You got to dodge the derp and slurp the schadenfreude.

        1. JW   11 years ago

          derp and slurp

          At last, I have the name for my new diner.

          Or, for my brothel. It's a toss-up.

          1. BakedPenguin   11 years ago

            "Screw 'n' Chew"

            1. JW   11 years ago

              I might open a Briner.

              "I'll have what he's having."

              "Triple Slam, bowl of red and drag one through Georgia! No, not her, the other Georgia! She's got seniority!"

      2. Anonymous Coward   11 years ago

        Because whichever Progtard emerges from the pit the victor is not only as stupid as ever, but stronger, leaner, and has an appetite for human flesh.

  9. pan fried wylie   11 years ago

    "This faceless man could be anyone: your colleague, your boyfriend, your father, your husband,"

    I can understand being concerned about your sexual partner visiting a prostitute due to the STD risks involved, though I don't understand how that person can sleep with someone they trust that little...

    And, your Dad? I dunno, maybe stop thinking about your Dad's dick.

    1. Sudden   11 years ago

      They wouldn't become feminists if they did that.

  10. wef   11 years ago

    But how about transvestite hookers?

    And teh gays.....

    But this woman pollitt's main problem is revealed in the line Maybe men would be better partners, in bed and out of it, if they couldn't purchase that fantasy - which is itself a puerile fantasy of bullying and bitter women of a certain age.

    1. Warty   11 years ago

      It's like the Jezebel writer who doesn't realize she's documenting her failing marriage in her columns.

      1. JW   11 years ago

        "I don't get it. I've let myself go physically, harp on him to no end and judge him by framing his every action within the culture of the patriarchy. Why isn't he interested in me?"

      2. shamalam   11 years ago

        link please?

    2. Nooge.   11 years ago

      But this woman pollitt's main problem is revealed in the line 'Maybe men would be better partners, in bed and out of it, if they couldn't purchase that fantasy' - which is itself a puerile fantasy of bullying and bitter women of a certain age.

      Sure you don't think that men should desire or, God forbid, even enjoy sex, do you?

  11. AlmightyJB   11 years ago

    "Theoretically, if it's OK to be a sex worker, it's OK to be a john"

    Theoretically, if it's OK for girls to wear form fitting camel toe yoga pants, it's OK for boys to male gaze. Life lessons. How do they work.

    1. Nooge.   11 years ago

      Theoretically, if it's OK for girls to wear form fitting camel toe yoga pants, it's OK for boys to male gaze. Life lessons. How do they work.

      No, no, silly. It's okay for women to wear yoga pants. It's not okay for men to notice. Noticing a woman's body because you are a man is degrading to women or something.

      I think it's funny how feminists like this crazy woman objectify men. They objectify us as emotionless walking boners, so that they can condemn and criminalize normal human behavior, like a man finding the shape of a woman's body pleasing.

  12. Tak Kak   11 years ago

    "Liberty, however, is an essential component of equality..."

    Haha, I guess you aristocrats are marketing things differently than old John Randolph did.

    Liberty and equality are ultimately at odds.

    1. BakedPenguin   11 years ago

      Pol Pot's Cambodia was probably the most egalitarian society ever created.

      And 1/3 of the population was murdered in under 5 years.

      1. Tak Kak   11 years ago

        Someone obviously had too much freedom there!

  13. The Late P Brooks   11 years ago

    Needs more Obama dildos.

    1. DesigNate   11 years ago

      Tony has that more than covered.

      1. fish   11 years ago

        Yeah but you certainly wouldn't want to buy used!

        1. Tejicano   11 years ago

          Obviously you've never been to Singapore.

  14. Restoras   11 years ago

    2) Men she knows (and men you know, too!) might visit prostitutes if it's legal.

    I hate to break this to her, but men she knows already have. And do. and will continue to.

  15. The Laconic   11 years ago

    Maybe there's a difference between a blowjob and a slice of pie.

    I'll have one from column A and one from column B, please.

  16. Paul.   11 years ago

    I've followed sex worker activism and attitudes for years, and I am far from alone in noticing a recent surge in anti?sex work passion among progressives.

    Recent? Uhm, you're still not labouring under the misconception about "my body, my choice" with progressives are you, Lizbeth?

  17. Longtorso, Johnny   11 years ago

    Mozilla's Anti-Gay-Marriage CEO Is Out

    1. Longtorso, Johnny   11 years ago

      Mozilla believes both in equality and freedom of speech. Equality is necessary for meaningful speech. And you need free speech to fight for equality. Figuring out how to stand for both at the same time can be hard.

      1. Longtorso, Johnny   11 years ago

        BTW, was his donation leaked by the IRS or was it required to be publicly reported?

      2. The Immaculate Trouser   11 years ago

        Equality is necessary for meaningful speech.

        [Citation needed]

    2. GILMORE   11 years ago

      So much for my "proudly still using Mozilla because I don't give a shit" campaign

  18. Tony   11 years ago

    Okay, read the piece, and, surprise, the reason response mischaracterizes it. She doesn't want prostitutes thrown in jail. She is questioning the "normalization" of sex work being considered on the left. Most sex work is done by desperate people, and there is an inherent imbalance with respect to men and women. Now, I can't figure out exactly what she proposes as a solution to the problem, except remaking the world into a place where plentiful economic opportunities exist for all women. That would be nice.

    But the libertarian description of sex work given here is pure self-parody. Voluntary payment for voluntary service! Yeah. Sometimes you guys make the naive look cynical.

    The only feasible first-step solution is to be found on the left (as usual). Strong oversight and regulation of the industry to prevent exploitation and harm. Both the left and libertarians can agree that throwing people in jail serves no purpose (except for sex traffickers perhaps). But the argument that sex work is inherently unequal and exploitative is not so easily dismissed.

    1. AlmightyJB   11 years ago

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04

    2. Palin's Buttplug   11 years ago

      Of course sex work is "unequal". That is why there is cash compensation involved.

      1. Byte Me   11 years ago

        Putin's Buttplug: Is it also "unequal" when you exchange money for a pack of gum or anything else? Are you suggesting that trading value through the use of money for goods is inherently wrong? If so, I believe there are a few things about trade that you need to learn.

        1. Palin's Buttplug   11 years ago

          I was quoting Tony with these things "".

          I am a radical liberal/libertarian. I think if you want to sell a kidney that is your business. Euthanasia should be a legal trade. Sell pussy? Fine.

          This is a primary reason I despise Chriso-Fascists (GOP).

          1. fish   11 years ago

            This is a primary reason I despise Chriso-Fascists (GOP).

            PS: NEEEEDSZ MOAR CHRISTFAG

    3. Tak Kak   11 years ago

      "But the argument that sex work is inherently unequal and exploitative is not so easily dismissed."

      Of course it isn't, as "exploitative, unequal, and even inherent" aren't concrete concepts.

      So obviously ideas like "Strong oversight and regulation of the industry to prevent exploitation and harm" is absurd, nor does it at all address her concern of "normalizing".

      1. Caleb Turberville   11 years ago

        The Left in general doesn't understand that market economics relies on mutually beneficial behavior.

        Someone must always be exploiting someone else.

        What I find interesting is the fact that feminist are seeing the sex workers as the exploited. If their johns are paying them money (which has lasting value) in exchange for oral sex (the value of which vanishes with time), aren't the johns being exploited?

        1. Tak Kak   11 years ago

          It's a completely meaningless word at this point.

          Useful for complaining though. Obviously, the sex workers who are truly exploited as they have to perform a "degrading" act.

          On and on this will go.

          1. Caleb Turberville   11 years ago

            Yeah, but some men may view paying for sex as degrading too.

            Leftist logic always ignores the gains people make and instead focuses on the trade-offs.

            According to the Left, the world isn't just until everyone's lunch is free.

            1. Tak Kak   11 years ago

              Of course - I hate paying for sex, I feel so awful - some sort of voucher system would obviously be needed for a, dare I say it, just and equal society.

    4. GILMORE   11 years ago

      Dear Tony =

      what exchange of money isn't ' inherently unequal and exploitative' in your definition?

      1. GILMORE   11 years ago

        taxes? mmmm. so equal.

        1. Certified Public Asskicker   11 years ago

          No, we still have rich people 🙁

      2. Tony   11 years ago

        Exchanges that actually fit the definition of free and mutually agreed-upon.

        I go pretty far on this. I think if you have to work to survive you're being exploited. I think you deserve to survive regardless of whether you're putting money in a CEO's (or pimp's) pockets.

        1. Scruffy Nerfherder   11 years ago

          I think if you have to work to survive you're being exploited.

          Then you're a fucking idiot. Go troll somewhere else, you're not even mildly entertaining anymore.

        2. Tak Kak   11 years ago

          So would you say nature itself is "exploitative"?

          (Since you DO have to work to survive outside of society, whether you think so or not)

          1. Tony   11 years ago

            Nature is a pretty fucked up place to live no matter who you are, yeah. The whole point of civilization is to smooth over some of its rough edges and make life easier for people. That you want society to resemble it more than I do should be your weirdness to defend not mine.

            1. Tak Kak   11 years ago

              Calm down there, I'm no libertarian, so your projections about what "society" I want are vacuous.

              Regardless, the "point of civilization" while a silly thing to say is irrelevant. As is the obvious following debate on whether life can be easier at some level of exploitation versus none-at-all.

              I just wanted to know where exploitation began.

              1. Scruffy Nerfherder   11 years ago

                Tony is a troll, pure and simple. Not even sure it's one person. If you're looking for some insight into the mind of the progressive left you won't find it there.

                Let me sum it up for you: Positive rights outweigh negative rights. Rights are granted by the government (collective).

                1. Tak Kak   11 years ago

                  Now, now, we got somewhere with him/it, that's a start. Just a wee bit cagey is all.

                  1. Tony   11 years ago

                    You can hardly blame me for all the abuse I get. *sniffle*

                    Exploitation is what it is. One party doesn't get an equal choice in a transaction. It's a word that implies agency and will, so it's hard to say that nature does it, but it is just one of the things that happens in nature and society that reasonably moral people consider wrong, necessitating the tools of civilization to remedy.

                    1. Tak Kak   11 years ago

                      "Exploitation is what it is. One party doesn't get an equal choice in a transaction"

                      It really likes you bring it on yourself. See the above discussion, it's an infinite regress, define "equal choice" now.

                      Then, "society", "wrong", "moral people", "reasonably moral people" and "tools of civilization"

                    2. Tak Kak   11 years ago

                      Excuse me: looks like*

                  2. paranoid android   11 years ago

                    Now, now, we got somewhere with him/it, that's a start. Just a wee bit cagey is all.

                    Doubt it. I was trying to look something up from an article from yesterday, and do you know what I discovered?

                    http://reason.com/blog/2014/04.....nt_4423527

                    Tony makes a past time of showing up in threads over twelve hours after everyone else stops posting so he can post responses to an empty room. One might say he's as vain as he is clueless and just wants to make sure he gets "the last word" without the risk of anyone responding to him, but it's possible it really does take him twelve hours to try to come up with a dumbass retort.

                    1. Tak Kak   11 years ago

                      You may be right there, I just thought I'd give him/it the benefit of the doubt. Feeling charitable or something.

            2. Brian   11 years ago

              Tony:

              The whole point of civilization is to smooth over some of its rough edges and make life easier for people.

              When did we, as a society, convene the meeting in which we all mutually agreed upon the point of civilization, as a whole?

              I missed the invite.

              Or, perhaps all the human conflict over the millennia has been one grand, drawn out debate over how exactly to make life easier for people?

              You might as well talk about what the point of a forrest of trees is, or the point of a herd of wildebeests is.

        3. GILMORE   11 years ago

          ""Tony|4.3.14 @ 5:51PM|#
          Exchanges that actually fit the definition of free and mutually agreed-upon.""

          Such *as*?

          See, when people ask questions, they expect answers, not a repeat of your undefined premise.

          1. Tony   11 years ago

            Anything, whatever. Me buying a car or a sandwich. I never said all exchanges were suspect, just some. But I don't struggle with gray areas like all of you do.

            1. GILMORE   11 years ago

              You still haven't distinguished what "is" and "isn't" exploitation other than to say you like Sandwiches and you deserve to live without working (not clear if you apply that to everyone on the planet or just your privileged self)

              1. BakedPenguin   11 years ago

                GILMORE - Stop playing with the idiot.

                1. GILMORE   11 years ago

                  sorry (kicks can, slinks off)

            2. Scruffy Nerfherder   11 years ago

              But I don't struggle with gray areas like all of you do.

              At least that little bit of trolling is of a higher class.

        4. GILMORE   11 years ago

          So, what you're saying is that "Exploitation" is everything, and therefore nothing.

          great. where'd you go to college again?

        5. wadair   11 years ago

          I think if you have to work to survive you're being exploited.

          Nobody owes you a living, Tony.

        6. Hyperion   11 years ago

          I think you deserve to survive regardless of whether you're putting money in a CEO's (or pimp's) pockets.

          So do I, so get off your ass, craft yourself a spear, bow and arrow, and fishing line, and survive. Oh, and hope that the government doesn't arrest you and throw you into jail for eating some 'endangered' animal or for hunting on 'their' land.

          There isn't a libertarian alive that doesn't want to give you that chance. So do it, or STFU.

        7. Brian   11 years ago

          Gilmore:

          What exchange of money isn't ' inherently unequal and exploitative' in your definition?

          Tony:

          Exchanges that actually fit the definition of free and mutually agreed-upon.

          Then, by your definition, since taxes are not free and mutually agreed-upon, taxation is inherently unequal and exploitive.

          You were doing so OK at first, but then you ran intro trouble, and blew yourself up.

          1. Brian   11 years ago

            Boom.

          2. Tony   11 years ago

            Not a bad try, but taxes are not of a kind with market exchanges. They're an object of law (thus always compulsory). Some people do consider at least progressive taxation unequal. But is it exploitative? Only when it's used to exploit people. What's your point? There should be no taxes, or exploitative transactions are okay?

            1. TransVanginalMesh   11 years ago

              "What's your point?"

              That you were asked to define something, and when you did, you were left with a contradiction that you still haven't solved.

              Reading isn't hard guy.

            2. Brian   11 years ago

              Tony:

              Not a bad try, but taxes are not of a kind with market exchanges. They're an object of law (thus always compulsory).

              Oh, now there's a special pleading qualifier: market exchanges. I see, so unfree, and non-mutually agreed-upon exchanges aren't unequal and exploitive, as long as its the government, defined by law. Only those kind of unfree, non-mutually agreed-upon exchanges are good, because there's no market; it's the government. Otherwise, it's horrible.

              You might as well just say this:
              "Coerced exchanges, and exchanges without mutual agreement are bad, except when the government does it. Then, that's debatable."

              It's amazing the sins that democracy and law can wash away. It's almost as if they're just defined into a different plane of existence. How conveniently subjective.

              But is it exploitative? Only when it's used to exploit people.

              This is what we call a "truism." Are market exchanges that are not free, without mutual agreement, exploitive only when they exploit people, too? You didn't mention any special pleading exceptions earlier. Why is this only debatable for the state?

              What's your point? There should be no taxes, or exploitative transactions are okay?

              My point is that you're argument has logical conclusions that you disagree with. Also, questions about what other points I may have do not make them go away.

              Nice attempt at a save, but you've failed.

      3. Heroic Mulatto   11 years ago

        Never give Tony a pass when it claims the moral high ground. Especially when it bloviates on sex work. On this very forum, it insinuated that because my wife is Thai, she would sell my daughter into sexual slavery. Remember that when it says anything. Its image of Asian women consists solely of "sucky-sucky" bar-girl prostitute stereotypes. It is a bigoted and sexist piece of shit who projects its hatred onto others.

        1. Tony   11 years ago

          The fact that you're still on this suggests that you are actually being serious.

          FTR I didn't know a single fact about your marital situation. You completely misread things.

          It would be better for everyone if you were joking and not playing the part of permanently racially aggrieved leftist parody.

          1. Heroic Mulatto   11 years ago

            Did I misread things? I'm not certain I have. Regardless of that, perhaps an apology would be in order for any misunderstanding you might have caused with your careless and hurtful words. Are you a big enough man for that, Tony?

            1. Tony   11 years ago

              I apologize for your misunderstanding.

              1. Heroic Mulatto   11 years ago

                Well, I appreciate that.

        2. Pope Jimbo   11 years ago

          HM,

          Did you not force your wife to sign a contract giving you sole rights to sell your daughter? I'm shocked!

          I didn't let my Korean wife get off the boat without signing over rights to my kids. I'm shocked that such a seemingly intelligent guy as yourself didn't do so as well

    5. John C. Randolph   11 years ago

      Rent Boy,

      It does not follow that because sex workers are abused by pimps in the current, prohibitionist system, that legalization is a bad thing.

      -jcr

      1. Tony   11 years ago

        Didn't say it was and neither did Pollitt.

        I'm for legalization for all the same reasons you guys are, but I don't necessarily accept that that's the end of the story.

        1. Calidissident   11 years ago

          What even is your point? Who here is advocating that forced prostitution should be legal?

          1. Tony   11 years ago

            Must one always have a point?

            1. Hyperion   11 years ago

              You NEVER do, so I guess it must be ok.

            2. Brian   11 years ago

              It usually helps to have a point.

              1. Tony   11 years ago

                The point is to attempt to get you guys to consider subjects thoughtfully.

                1. Brian   11 years ago

                  RIght now, I'm still trying to figure out how the only exchanges that aren't inherently unequal and exploitive are ones that are free and with mutual agreement, except when it's the government, in which case, it's only unequal and exploitive if it's unequal and exploitive.

                  I'm not sure if trying to untangle the web of contradictory statements, special pleading exceptions, non sequiturs, and word games is accurately described as thoughtful consideration. Is this another thing that only makes sense from Tony's subjective view?

                  Here, why not just say this:
                  "Everything that Tony likes is good. Except when he doesn't like it. Then, it's bad."

                  I'll give it thoughtful consideration.

    6. Mellow Kitty   11 years ago

      Oh shut the fuck up, Tony. It absolutely is a voluntary service provided in exchange for voluntary payment. And this might come as a surprise to you, but most of us don't want "strong oversight and regulation" -- having to hand over half of our earnings to a government that dictates how we can fuck sounds too much like "being pimped."

      1. Tony   11 years ago

        Only if you ignore the reality of most of the sex trade.

        1. Mellow Kitty   11 years ago

          Please, tell me more about "the reality of most of the sex trade" that I've worked in for the better part of a decade. Go ahead.

          1. Tony   11 years ago

            Okay so by your logic neither of us can know anything about human trafficking, child sex tourism, starvation sex, or any of the problem areas of this particular industry, since we haven't experienced it?

            1. Mellow Kitty   11 years ago

              You're justifying onerous regulations by pointing to the statistical anomalies of the American sex trade? Bravo.

              Here's the thing: You don't eliminate instances of coercion by enforcing your own petty preferences on people who want nothing to do with them.

        2. Brian   11 years ago

          Tony:

          Only if you ignore the reality of most of the sex trade.

          The reality as it exists in a heavily regulated state (i.e., banned practically everywhere)?

          That's not exactly a victory for heavy regulation bringing out maximum awesomeness for everyone.

          The amount of government regulation that contributes to human trafficking is amazing.

          Traffickers can coerce people to work through a variety of mechanisms. Trafficked migrants usually have their passports taken away on arrival. Without their documents they cannot prove they have a right to be in the country and therefore cannot go to the authorities for assistance.

          Score one for regulatory awesomeness.

          1. Tony   11 years ago

            I'm using regulated as an antonym of prohibited.

            1. Brian   11 years ago

              Regulated is not an antonym of prohibited. Permitted is an antonym of prohibited. Prohibition is a type of regulation.

              If you're going to keep up switching and making up definitions for words to support your silly arguments, then they quickly become incoherent. I, for one, don't really know what you're really saying, as you say it, since you seem to be using your own language. Also, I find semantic word games boring. If you can't stick to standard English, and stop trying to revise it as we go, then I'm not sure what the point is.

      2. Tony   11 years ago

        But I am happy to assume that you think children, at least, should be prevented from entering the trade.

        Gotta love the "well we can't look like psychopaths, can we?" exceptions to your stated principles.

    7. Joshua   11 years ago

      Because

      Strong oversight and regulation

      would never be used by a corrupt bureaucrat to harm or exploit sex workers!

    8. DEADBEEF   11 years ago

      Assuming absence of choice by default requires that some entity act to, as you innocuously put it, "make sure" it exists. Considering that the police are consistently cited by sex workers as one of their biggest dangers - more than bad clients, more than pimps or traffickers - there's a great deal of abuse hiding beyond that anodyne phrase.

      Oddly enough, sex work activists themselves overwhelmingly endorse the New Zealand model of decriminalisation and the removal of all sexwork-specific laws, and explicitly reject the "strong regulation and oversight" of other regimes - Nevada, Holland, Germany, etc - which are based to varying degrees on your default-assumption-of-coercion paradigm. They organise against such systems - and evade their requirements when forced to live under them - precisely because they are intrusive, presumptuous, infantilising, based on lurid stereotypes rather than the relatively mundane realities of sex work, and because "strong" licensing requirements serve to concentrate power in the hands of the few people who are wealthy and connected enough to acquire them (cf. Denis Hof, the "brothel king" of Nevada, versus the proliferation of SOOBs in New Zealand). In other words, experience has brought them to a pretty bog-standard libertarian position on the issue.

    9. DEADBEEF   11 years ago

      But I'm sure you can explain to them how how naive they are, and how thoughtlessly they have considered this subject, for not wanting to submit to mandatory weekly health screenings, or to being placed on a register on the off-chance that a future government won't decide to recriminalise, or to having their places of work subject to arbitrary "inspection" by SWAT teams. Because trafficked children.

  19. Anonymous Coward   11 years ago

    In the discourse of sex work, it seems, the subaltern does not get to speak.

    Warning: Critical Theory (i.e. Freudo-Marxist) buzzword sighted! Read with great caution!

    Women who fight sex trafficking are in it to build nonprofit empires, "jobs for the girls," and are indistinguishable from paternalistic rescuers like Kristof.

    In order to combat forced prostitution, we must ban voluntary prostitution.

    Yes, it really does make that much sense.

    They accept that sex is something women have and men get (do I hear "rape culture," anyone?), that men are entitled to sex without attracting a partner, even to the limited extent of a pickup in a bar, much less pleasing or satisfying her.

    The Pussy Cartel is on full display. Men must beg, plead, and jump through hoops, and still shell out money, in order to have sex. This is equality in the feminist mindset.

    1. Pope Jimbo   11 years ago

      Only one legitimate way to monetize the gold mine:

      http://www.theonion.com/articl.....scam,1773/

      1. Anonymous Coward   11 years ago

        A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle, but if she decides she wants a man, he'd better do everything she says, buy her what she wants, because "she has the pussy, so she makes the rules."

        Feminism doesn't even allow for coherent thought.

        1. Soros' Wank-noose   11 years ago

          Could we please get someone to design a shirt or bumper sticker of a fish with it its bicycle, and a quote of something like, "I don't NEED it, I WANT it"?

  20. Palin's Buttplug   11 years ago

    The Wahabbi Christians come to the same conclusion as this Pollitt female idiot.

    And there are 1000x more of them.

    1. GILMORE   11 years ago

      DERP WE'S DUMB BUT USE DUMBERER AND MOARS OF YOU!

      1. Palin's Buttplug   11 years ago

        MUST ... NEVER .. SAY .. BAD ... THINGS ... ABOUT ... CONSERVATIVES.

        Got it!

        1. GILMORE   11 years ago

          Who said shit about conservatives? I was talking about you.

          1. Palin's Buttplug   11 years ago

            Because I dared insult your Christ-Nut friends in the GOP.

            1. GILMORE   11 years ago

              Who cares about them? We are dealing with an example of a feministprogtard. Said example makes you mad because....well, who knows. It upsets you that anyone makes fun of retards = "your people", I suppose. so you spit, drool, flail. It amuses us. Please, do more monkey dances while chanting "CHRISTFAG BUSHPIG ME SO ENLIGHTENEND!!"

              1. Palin's Buttplug   11 years ago

                I'm not mad. I said she is an idiot and reminds me of the stupid "comparable worth" argument in the early 80s that prompted me to vote for Reagan.

                But forget the messenger whether far left or far right - they both hate freedom. And as George Carlin noted there is NOTHING like religion that threatens freedom and sanity.

                A few straggler feminists don't compare to religion as a disease on mankind.

                1. GILMORE   11 years ago

                  Great.

                  So in the future when some religious twats complain about liberty, maybe THEN you'll have a point rather than just being a retarded monkey *all the time*.

        2. Brian   11 years ago

          Somewhere, out there, there's a comment section where liberals are talking about how silly religious people are, and Palin's Buttplug is making sure they know how silly stupid feminists are.

          He's just making sure that everywhere, everything is fair and balanced.

  21. GILMORE   11 years ago

    "Pollitt's opposition seems to hinge mainly on three things:"

    I have to admit, I thought #1 and #2 both assumed #3, so like, isn't it really Patriarchy all the way down?

    (I want a t-shirt with this image, saying, "PATRIARCHY, BITCH"

    http://www.angelfire.com/ok4/s...../patri.gif)

    Also = why is it always SEX or PIE? SEX AND PIE!!

  22. widget   11 years ago

    I find Kristina van den Heuvel, The Nations' principal publisher, attractive.

    1. GILMORE   11 years ago

      Do you now? perhaps you should fawn over her daily lifestyle choices like the NYT does in its regular series on "How we liberals live well and maintain our natural superiority to peasant-America through Yoga, Yogurt, and our vegan cats"

      It has pictures of her *working out*. Hawt.

      1. Warty   11 years ago

        Why the fuck don't I get pictures of me working out in the NYT? Fucking bullshit.

        1. SugarFree   11 years ago

          Fear.

        2. GILMORE   11 years ago

          did the Fangoria "workout issue" fall through?

        3. Sudden   11 years ago

          We've been through this. Masturbation is not considered working out, even with a DOOMCOCK OF DOOM

          1. Scruffy Nerfherder   11 years ago

            Dammit. There goes my New Year's resolution.

            1. GILMORE   11 years ago

              (rim shot!)

      2. widget   11 years ago

        I'd rather sit in a jacuzzi with Kristina than you GILMORE.

        What is wrong with me?

        1. GILMORE   11 years ago

          I think that's disgusting. She's melt anyway... there'd just be this floating scum of kale-yogurt and hair with botox evaporating from it. What a way to ruin a Jacuzzi.

          1. widget   11 years ago

            Think that through. What if widget had Kristina van den Huevel and Nancy Polosi over to the trailer park here to take a dip in the pool and pass the time - would you be any the worse for this?

            1. GILMORE   11 years ago

              Not if I can throw a toaster in the Jacuzzi with you.

              1. GILMORE   11 years ago

                Like this =

                http://y2u.be/-w7knDiVh-Q

              2. widget   11 years ago

                You are such a Yankee do-gooder.

        2. JW   11 years ago

          Dude. She was attractive about 20 years ago.

          At least have the decency to lust after Madeleine Stowe.

        3. JW   11 years ago

          Or Mary Louise Parker.

          1. DesigNate   11 years ago

            Mmmm, Mary Louise Parker.

      3. GILMORE   11 years ago

        Sorry, I forgot the link

        http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08......html?_r=0

    2. Palin's Buttplug   11 years ago

      I think conservative apologist S.E. Cupp is hot as hell. It is partly the glasses and that she is an atheist - also she laughs a lot on Bill Maher's show - a good sport all the way.

  23. SugarFree   11 years ago

    Congratulations, Elizabeth. You drew out three of the trolls. If this was a weekend post you might have even drawn out the cowardly Tulpa and hit a homerun.

    1. Palin's Buttplug   11 years ago

      "Troll" = anyone who dares stray off the GOP Plantation.

      1. SugarFree   11 years ago

        Did this blank white space say something? Fuck off, waffletwat.

    2. BiMonSciFiCon   11 years ago

      I count two. PB and Tony. Who am I missing?

      1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

        I think he means moi.

        1. JW   11 years ago

          Shit. He's self-aware, which means we have to treat him as sentient, now.

          1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

            Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
            Turing for the trolls at H&R

          2. DesigNate   11 years ago

            On his worst day (And arguing that prostitutes hold some culpability in the violation of the marriage contract is probably up there) I wouldn't consider Eddie a troll.

    3. The Immaculate Trouser   11 years ago

      It is too bad Rollo couldn't participate in this thread -- I'm sure that with his line of work as a drug counselor, he has plenty of experience to draw from on this topic.

  24. Warty   11 years ago

    "The current way of seeing sex work is all about liberty?but what about equality?" Pollitt concludes.

    Well that's a dead giveaway, isn't it? We can't let people do things they want to do, someone might enjoy themselves. Or, even worse, someone might make her husband enjoy himself.

    1. Pope Jimbo   11 years ago

      Hookers are the equivalent of scabs to a lot of women.

      They are all members in good standing in the United Pussy Union, and if these scabs are allowed to cross the picket line, how are they going to force the men to come to the negotiating table when they stage a walkout?

      1. Palin's Buttplug   11 years ago

        Damn, I really like this comment. A wicked analogy and said with aplomb.

        1. Pope Jimbo   11 years ago

          I can't take credit for it. I plagiarized it from the Bible*.

          * Note to others here, I didn't really steal it from the Bible, I just don't want to be publically linked with Putin's Buttplug under any circumstances.

          1. Palin's Buttplug   11 years ago

            All you know about me is that I have the balls to publicly support Obama over the fascist-lite Bushpigs.

            That tells me you are no libertarian - you are Team Red.

            A libertarian wouldn't give a fuck.

            1. Tak Kak   11 years ago

              I always saw Obama as the fascist-lite Bushpig.

              1. Palin's Buttplug   11 years ago

                "less fascist"? Yeah, taking out the torture and blitzkriegs makes him so for sure.

                1. Tak Kak   11 years ago

                  Do you mean *some* torture and *some* blitzkriegs? As that's at least arguable.

                  1. Tak Kak   11 years ago

                    (Not that torture and blitzkriegs are necessarily part and parcel with fascism)

                2. Suthenboy   11 years ago

                  Shreeeeeeek! I don't think you know what the word 'fascist' means.

            2. DesigNate   11 years ago

              What a sorry sack of demfag shit you are. Bush and Obama are at least as bad as one another.

              1. Palin's Buttplug   11 years ago

                Bush and Obama are at least as bad as one another.

                Nope. Iraq by itself makes Bush worse - $1 trillion at least and 4600 dead for nothing.

                I can list 10 other bad Bush laws from the PATRIOT Act to Medicare Welfare. Plus eight more - try me.

                All you have is OBAMACARE!

                1. DesigNate   11 years ago

                  You mean that Patriot act that Obama extended and now owns?

                  How about assassinating two american citizens without even the pretense of due process?

                  It's funny you should mention $1Trillion for a war that Obama wanted to continue indefinitely and didn't bother to take the spending off his budgets after he was forced to leave anyways.

                  I don't know why I'm arguing with you. Even when you get your ass handed to you, you never learn and you always want cake.

                2. Jordan   11 years ago

                  We have the PATRIOT Act x 2, plus the NDAA with Obama.

                3. Tak Kak   11 years ago

                  Are you simply going by financial cost or do you have some other metric that you are applying to determine what is "bad"?

                  And we established the other day that the 4600 didn't die for nothing. Many benefited from that conflict. (Probably not any that one would tout, but that's besides the point.)

            3. MJGreen   11 years ago

              Six years later, PB is still unaware that Obama and Bush never ran against each other in an election.

          2. Marshall Gill   11 years ago

            I can't take credit for it. I plagiarized it from the Bible*.

            * Note to others here, I didn't really steal it from the Bible, I just don't want to be publically linked with Putin's Buttplug under any circumstances.

            Well played sir!

  25. Agile Cyborg   11 years ago

    Pollitt is horrified by some progressives that are pro-sex work because the fucking pile of idiot trinkets in her decrepit skull cannot believe that modern Leftist progressivism now has a Libertarian fringe and as such can no longer be trusted to fall in line with diehard socialist/Communist sexuality doctrine. A LOT of people who were once drawn to Communistic ideology wake up very quickly when they realize that Communism views human sexuality on a bizarrely conservative paradigm. Communists are just as controlling of human sexuality as Pentecostals.

    Additionally, the problem here is that women in general are so goddamn vulnerable and incapable of living and working in a man's world that they clearly require genius women like Pollitt who can think for her entire gender and who is comfortable utilizing government power to force all the inferior women into a role that collectively protects them from their disgusting decisions.

    1. Palin's Buttplug   11 years ago

      Another superb comment. ENB is drawing out the best of H&R.

    2. Heroic Mulatto   11 years ago

      Communism views human sexuality on a bizarrely conservative paradigm. Communists are just as controlling of human sexuality as Pentecostals.

      Anyone who knows anything about Mao knows the truth of this.

      1. John C. Randolph   11 years ago

        While Mao was banging his thousand virgins, ordinary Chinese people were getting flogged if they were found in possession of pornography.

        -jcr

    3. The Immaculate Trouser   11 years ago

      A LOT of people who were once drawn to Communistic ideology wake up very quickly when they realize that Communism views human sexuality on a bizarrely conservative paradigm.

      More a collectivist paradigm than a conservative one. Conservatives view the family as the building block of society, crucial for preserving continuity and propagating culture/all that is good in life. Communist goals for the family are to crush it enough so that it is not an independent unit in society, but so that it can efficiently take part in the creation of the New Socialist Man -- hence the strange mixture of hyper-puritan nonsense with things like the snuffing out of parental authority.

  26. GILMORE   11 years ago

    Jim Goad has a piece at Takimag on the 15th Annual White Privilege Conference

    (which as he notes, is helpfully located in Madison Wisconsin rather than in, say, New Orleans)

    http://takimag.com/article/sof.....z2xrZtbJv8

    I had a few weeks ago pointed out that one of my favorite samples of EXTREMEDERP was partly funded by the WPC peoples.

    Here is his new new hotness

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdR_twAOuiQ

    its about why voter-ID is about making blacks into slaves again

    1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

      The local schools should invite the white kids to attend the conference.

      1. GILMORE   11 years ago

        THAT'S MEAN!

        1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

          Sorry, didn't read the article, I assumed a white privilege conference was a fun event where you hang around, play golf, smoke cigars, play, and drink martinis while persons of color unobtrusively refill your glasses, caddy your golf clubs and give the ponies a thorough grooming.

          Was I mistaken?

          1. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

            play *polo*

            1. GILMORE   11 years ago

              No, what you describe is my home life. Although you forgot about the orphans manning the trap-shooting range.

              This conference is something else entirely. RTFA

          2. Almanian!   11 years ago

            So, you mean, "live like I do every day?"

            WTF fun is that? Oh, wait...never mind.

  27. Byte Me   11 years ago

    No maybe about it, lady, there is definitely a difference between a blow job and a slice of pie.

    There's no difference between an Australian kiss and a warm, apple pie.

  28. Byte Me   11 years ago

    Tony|4.3.14 @ 5:51PM|#
    Exchanges that actually fit the definition of free and mutually agreed-upon.
    I go pretty far on this. I think if you have to work to survive you're being exploited.

    Because working for a living (i.e. trading skills, knowledge, and effort for an income that you can exchange for goods to support your own life) is EXPLOITATIVE.
    If this is a legit position of someone who is not simply trying to fool us with some good 'ole fashioned satire, we're totally fucked. (and not in the "hey, take a deep breath, let's experiment" kind of way.)

  29. Ice Cream Man   11 years ago

    Prostitute. Why is PC reason magazine so afraid to say it?

    1. GILMORE   11 years ago

      Winky-Dinky Dog with Ho-Cakes.

      Say it with me

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msbo6TiwA5A

      1. Almanian!   11 years ago

        "Winky-Dinky Dog with Ho-Cakes!"

        That was fun! Let's do it again!

        "Winky-Dinky Dog with Ho-Cakes!!!"

        HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

        1. GILMORE   11 years ago

          Hoes gotta eat too.

        2. Soros' Wank-noose   11 years ago

          Oh, wings don't fail me now! Batty, batty, batty!"

  30. Almanian!   11 years ago

    So - Bing'ed Pollitt - my takeaway is that Rush Limbaugh is right, and feminism is to provide...satisfaction or something...for fat, ugly bitches.

    Fat, STUPID, ugly bitches.

    Cool.

    1. Palin's Buttplug   11 years ago

      Fat Rush is no gift to the ladies.

    2. Notorious G.K.C.   11 years ago

      I know that she left her husband for a boyfriend who cheated and left her.

      I know this because it's in her memoir.

      http://www.amazon.com/Learning.....ha+pollitt

    3. GILMORE   11 years ago

      From KP's "About the Author"

      The very first line:

      "Katha Pollitt is well known for her wit and her keen sense of both the ridiculous and the sublime..."

      Don't worry = if you're not fully convinced by that assertion, just go to the second paragraph, where you learn...

      "...her essay "Why Do We Romanticize the Fetus?" won the Maggie Award from the Planned Parenthood Federation of America"

      Ridiculous. Sublime.

  31. Almanian!   11 years ago

    "A libertarian wouldn't give a fuck."

    "One True Scotsman? rides awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy..."

    /Ode To Troll-y Jack

    1. Tejicano   11 years ago

      "A libertarian wouldn't give a fuck."

      But she might sell one

  32. Suthenboy   11 years ago

    "I think if you have to work to survive you're being exploited."

    Please tell us how we can build a world in which no one works in order to survive, a world where no one is exploited. Do tell.

    Tony, this more than anything you have ever said, is illustrative of your profound ignorance.

    For everyone else: My grandfather said it a million times if he said it once to my brother and I before we were ten years old - "If you don't work you don't eat. Everybody has to work."

    1. Tony   11 years ago

      If your society is poor enough, you do have to work to eat. (Sometimes even that's not enough.) Americans don't live in such a society, but rather the wealthiest one in the world that can afford to provide basic needs and already does to an extent. I think you should have to morally justify why we shouldn't guarantee basic needs before I have to justify why we should. Because unlike libertarians I just can't see how a person starving is less an outrage than a billionaire being taxed ten cents.

      1. neoteny   11 years ago

        the wealthiest one in the world

        And how is that wealth created?

        1. chmercier   11 years ago

          It's soooo profoundly evil of libertarians to think that people need to grow food and eat things, or drink water, in order to survive.

          Or: government is the new magical sky god?

      2. MJGreen   11 years ago

        We're fortunate to live in a country which the gods have blessed with trillions of dollars of wealth. I pray they will rain treasure upon us for centuries to come.

  33. Suthenboy   11 years ago

    Is there a feminist in the world that isn't an angry, bitter man-hater?

    I suspect any answer to this will qualify in my mind as more of a libertarian who happens to be female than a feminist.

    1. GILMORE   11 years ago

      Yes. at least 2.

      And they were both good in bed. Of course, I may just be saying that because it was at the same time.

      1. GILMORE   11 years ago

        Now that I think about it, they may have also only been tolerable because they thought they had me outnumbered.

  34. prolefeed   11 years ago

    Tony|4.3.14 @ 5:34PM|#

    I'll keep posting until you guys realize that what you advocate is a) a complete upheaval of society that few people actually want, and b) because of that and for many other reasons, will result in a loss of a huge amount of personal freedom.

    Shorter Tony: "Increasing freedom will result in huge losses of freedom!"

    The fuck?

  35. SugarFree   11 years ago

    Meringue.

  36. AlmightyJB   11 years ago

    Snake n'Bake

  37. Warty   11 years ago

    Any of your stupid names are fine, idiots. As long as we make sure to hire Warrant for our commercials.

  38. SugarFree   11 years ago

    I thought the entire band died of shame.

  39. Pl?ya Manhattan.   11 years ago

    I'm not going to limit myself to just one flavor.

  40. AlmightyJB   11 years ago

    Hair bands don't feel shame

  41. Warty   11 years ago

    In that case, we'll hire a band of Mexicans to replace them. El Warranto.

  42. Agammamon   11 years ago

    Filipino's

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hiutc7IwrFU

    Hell, even Journey's current lead singer is a Filipino that got his start in a Journey tribute band.

  43. BakedPenguin   11 years ago

    In that case, we'll hire a band of Mexicans to replace them. El Warranto.

    y Los Kixe!

  44. SugarFree   11 years ago

    Hair bands don't even have the common decency to die young.

    I saw Vince Neil on some show the other day. He looks like a corpse that's been in the East River for a week.

  45. fish   11 years ago

    They must not. Every damn one of them is still touring!

    Gotta pay the new hip joint somehow.

  46. Warty   11 years ago

    No dice. Filipinos are Mexicans who can do math, so they might figure out how badly we're cheating them.

  47. Marshall Gill   11 years ago

    Hair bands don't even have the common decency to die young.

    I saw Vince Neil on some show the other day. He looks like a corpse that's been in the East River for a week.

    Uh, Keith Richards and Mick Jagger?

  48. Almanian!   11 years ago

    I love Motley Crue. But Vince Neil can no longer sing. That's the crime.

    Just. Stop.

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