Tonight, on The Independents: Budget Deal, GM Bailout, Organ Sales, Uruguay Legalization, and Nelson Mandela's Economics

Tonight at 9 pm Eastern, your favorite new cable news show, Fox Business Network's The Independents, will dicuss the hot-off-the-presses bipartisan budget deal hammered out between Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wisconsin) and Rep. Patty Murray (D-Washington), and whether increasing federal spending by $45 billion is worth the pain-avoidance of not having budget or debt ceiling fights for a while.

Also on tap: How's that GM bailout looking now? Uruguay becomes the first country in the 21st century to legalize marijuana! What does Steve Jobs's preferential liver treatment tell us about the ethics of organ markets? And if Obama shaking hands with a Castro is like Chamberlain pressing the flesh with Hitler, what do we get to call the historic McCain-Qaddafi tent-party?

All this and more, with your hostess with the mostest Kennedy,  plus Matt Welch and Kmele Foster, in addition to a buncha fabulous guests. 

Hit up The Independents website for some video from last night's debut broadcast; heckle us live on Twitter @IndependentsFBN (we'll read out a few), follow us on Facebook, and consider this your open thread!

Comments

[playa manhattan]

"What does Steve Jobs's preferential liver treatment tell us about the ethics of organ markets?"

What I learned from that link is that I need to check out the Memphis real estate market. A THIRTEEN BEDROOM house? Jesus!

[Austrian Anarchy]

Well, Jobs is not around to comment so it seems it was no miracle.

[widget]

A liver transplant didn't out work well Lou Reed either.

[Austrian Anarchy]

"hot-of-the-presses" ??

[Austrian Anarchy]

And if Obama shaking hands with a Castro is like Chamberlain pressing the flesh with Hitler, what do we get to call the historic McCain-Qaddafi tent-party?

McCain is the same sort of Democrat as Obama.

[JeremyR]

Pretty much. McCain is not liked by conservatives one bit....

[JeremyR]

(Which are the ones who are making the biggest fuss about him shaking hands with a communist)

[Austrian Anarchy]

If that Obama handshake surprised anybody, it was not from their being conservative or otherwise. It was either from very basic ignorance, or denial.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Let's see if they can top last night's signoff, when Kennedy called Stossel's mustache a womb broom.

[Francisco d Anconia]

I wonder how FOX took that?

[Austrian Anarchy]

From the Adam Carolla school of of broadcasting, "As long as you are bringing people/numbers in, this stuff has a way of just going away." (paraphrased)

[mad libertarian guy]

So we have two glibertarianz and an Uncle Tom lawn jockey, and on FAUX NEWZ.

/proggie

[Palin's Buttplug]

Fox News and Stormfront.com are the new GOP enablers. They have the same POV.

[Bobarian]

Why the fuck are you bringing up Stormfront? Getting out the racist paint-brush?

And every other media outlet in the country is the old Obama and the democratic party enablers.

What is your point, douche-nozzle?

[OldMexican]

Re: Bobarian,

Why the fuck are you [Palin's Buttwipe] bringing up Stormfront?

He's our resident bloviator. He's a financial genius, did you know that? He said so himself.

[Corning]

Bush signed the stimulus after he left office you Christfag!!

[MJGreen]

Outside of the troll American, PB is the most racist poster here. It's just some of that projection.

[Fist of Etiquette]

The New Team Stossel Liveblog assemble?

[Fist of Etiquette]

Uh-oh, Welch's tie is loose. I think this thing is getting to him already.

[Irish]

HOLY FUCK, WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THIS DEMOS GUY'S HAIR!?!

[Corning]

How does he have hair like that and not want to legalize drugs?

[Fist of Etiquette]

I'm not even touching the Demos guy's look.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Only $45B? Way to tow the lion Reps.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Hey, a Viagra reference right off the bat.

[Fist of Etiquette]

What is that, a green denim shirt with a suit jacket? What has Fox Biz sunk to?

[Francisco d Anconia]

Certainly lower class than leather.

[Irish]

I have to say, the conservative and the prog are pretty much perfect stereotypes.

We've got the clean cut white Republican that looks like he should be sitting around a table with bankers sipping brandy.

On the other hand, we have a black socialist with hair so crazed that he looks like he's currently being electrocuted.

Where did Welch find these people? The Cliche Convention?

[Fist of Etiquette]

Last night's were pretty good, in my opinion.

[Rhywun]

I just tuned in and yeah I had a tough time telling which one was which.

[The Rt. Hon. Serious Man, Visc]

I'm going to try and count how many leg shots they get of Kennedy. Right now we're at 2. Er, make that 3.

[Francisco d Anconia]

4

[Francisco d Anconia]

5

[Francisco d Anconia]

6

[The Rt. Hon. Serious Man, Visc]

And a sweeping pan out from a low angle.

[Rhywun]

Why aren't we getting Welch's legs? Huh??

[SweatingGin]

The trick is, he's not wearing pants behind the desk. It was a requirement in the contract.

[Pelosi's Rabbit]

His requirement, or FOX's?

[Fist of Etiquette]

Only Foster could go to China here with Rich. He's hammering him on Democrats and cuts.

[Irish]

I'd have a little more respect for this show if they balled up and got three or four hardcore leftists to sit on the other side of the table.

As it stands, it seems a bit like a libertarian MSNBC panel. We've got one leftist and everyone is talking over him.

I realize I'm probably looking a gift horse in the mouth given that we've actually got a libertarian T.V. show now.

[Almanian!]

we've actually got

"We stuff", Kemosabe, "what is this", etc.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Kennedy is walking the line between entertaining and derailing the discussion.

[Irish]

This Demos guy is actually not that bad. I disagree with him, but he's certainly more well spoken and competent than anyone currently working for MSNBC.

[The Rt. Hon. Serious Man, Visc]

I think this is a good discussion. They aren't ignoring the guy's arguments.

[SweatingGin]

Also, he's not screaming.

It is kind of a dogpile, though.

[Rhywun]

IMHO the level of discussion, while brief, is vastly better than the usual left/right blowhards going at it.

[Irish]

IMHO the level of discussion, while brief, is vastly better than the usual left/right blowhards going at it.

Agreed. This is especially true because Benson and the guy from Demos were both willing to speak cogently without devolving into a shouting match.

[Irish]

Yeah. The problem is you can see that they had this thought:

"We'll have a Republican and a Democrat. As a result, we'll have the libertarians, and then one person on either side."

The problem is, when you've got Democrats in power they end up attacking Obama and the Dems much more than the Republicans. This means that instead of bringing balance, the Republican ends up agreeing with the libertarians 90% of the time and they swamp the single liberal.

[Rhywun]

I'll take it. It's better than the usual three D's and three R's.

OMG the look on Kennedy's face in reaction to the Republican's idiotic defense of the GM bailout was priceless.

[Irish]

The Republican was opposed to the GM bailout, wasn't he? He was being sarcastic when he said it was a 'bipartisan triumph.'

[Rhywun]

Hm... dunno? It went by so fast maybe I missed it.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Yeah, the pace is too fast.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Definitely sarcasm.

[OldMexican]

Re: Irish,

This Demos guy is actually not that bad.

You mean Buckwheat?

[Corning]

well spoken

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/.....8sw578.gif

[Fist of Etiquette]

Using inequality 26 times? No shit. Class warfare is their bread and butter.

[SweatingGin]

One Kennedy leg shot for every use of inequality?

[Francisco d Anconia]

This inequality bullshit has legs. Need to find a way to call out this non-issue.

I fear it's working.

[Fist of Etiquette]

It won the guy an election.

[The Rt. Hon. Serious Man, Visc]

You mean all that GM capital and assets would not have gone *poof* and disappeared absent a bailout?

[OldMexican]

Wow, the crew is really kicking the ass of Buckwheat there!

Because he is Buckwheat... right?

[Francisco d Anconia]

O-tay!

[Fist of Etiquette]

Benjamin did the best he could with the material he had, which is better than most liberal talkers, who all have the same terrible material and usually cover for that with misdirection and appeals to the heart.

[Francisco d Anconia]

You are correct. I liked him.

BUT THE HAIR, MAN! LOOK AT THE HAIR!

[Irish]

To be honest, if MSNBC had people like him on the channel, it wouldn't be so insufferable.

Then again, if Fox had conservatives like Thomas Sowell they wouldn't be insufferable either.

But then they wouldn't be Fox and MSNBC.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Yeah, helping a failed company survive is good for the economy.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Cigars and cucumbers? Jesus.

[The Rt. Hon. Serious Man, Visc]

This Wounded Warrior commercial must be the conservative equivalent of that ASPCA ad.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Have they tried a moat?

[OldMexican]

It wouldn't work. We would simply eat the crocodiles and still cross, donning very cool boots and belts.

[The Rt. Hon. Serious Man, Visc]

Piranhas would be more effective.

[OldMexican]

Piranhas are delicious, too... just sayin'.

[The Rt. Hon. Serious Man, Visc]

The trick is to fatten them up with the flesh of your enemies.

My preferred method is to lure them into a meeting and then opening a trap door beneath their chair.

[Raven Nation]

There is a SPECTRE haunting America...

[Fist of Etiquette]

Border security is so expensive because they won't use cheap Mexican labor.

[Fist of Etiquette]

A chain link fence? They need to have a fence that serves the dual purpose of stopping people coming across the border and also wall off that eyesore that is Mexico. McCain asleep at the wheel on this.

[Fist of Etiquette]

No cost benefit-analysis of the fence? How can you quantify the bennies of getting anti-immigrant votes?

[OldMexican]

Uruguay is finally green! Yay! Smoke 'em if you got 'em!

[Fist of Etiquette]

The Independents taking on the Drug War? Are they saving nothing for episode three?

[OldMexican]

Hey, Megyn cut her hair!

Ok, back to FBN...

[Fist of Etiquette]

GUY HAS AN OPEN MIND? We need a better conservative representative.

[The Rt. Hon. Serious Man, Visc]

As long as we don't have sex windows in our cities like in Amsterdam.

The demon weed is but the first step to that end.

[Fist of Etiquette]

We all already have sex windows. It's called our computer monitors.

[Irish]

Guy had an open mind, the Demos guy was willing to reasonably discuss policy...

I made fun of them earlier for being cliches, but it turns out they're not. Perhaps it was I who should have kept an open mind.

Also, how the hell is it that the guy from Demos wasn't sure about his stance on weed? That guy looks like he's been smoking every day since he was 10.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Some of that open mindedness might have been being outnumbered by libertarians, something they're probably unaccustomed to. When you know you're going to have to actually defend your ideas without being able to accuse the opposite party of this or that, you might rethink those ideas on your feet.

[Matt Welch]

I am laughing out loud, reading this.

[The Rt. Hon. Serious Man, Visc]

They are definitely baiting the conservative guy.

[Francisco d Anconia]

It's over. Even the Republicans are backing away. They see the writing on the wall.

[Fist of Etiquette]

HA! Mr. Demos is exactly the same as the GOP'er on this. How apropos.

[Irish]

That made me laugh so hard.

The libertarians are like "LEGALIZE IT!"

Democrats/Republicans: Now you just wait a minute...

[The Rt. Hon. Serious Man, Visc]

I think that's the first time I've heard the word 'statist' on a political talk show.

[Matt Welch]

The best part happened off camera, just after. Rich was all, "Statist? I like the sound of that!"

[Fist of Etiquette]

A manscaping commercial on Fox Biz? WHAT'S GOING ON HERE? Where are the ads for incontinence?

[Fist of Etiquette]

But when Job's liver's battery died, he had to send it back to have it serviced.

[SweatingGin]

"Professor of Bioethics"

No real need to ask him if it is ethical, Kennedy.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Forget about livers, get to the kidneys. That's where the real interest is here. Am I right?

[SweatingGin]

I'd like to hear more on the livers, myself.

[Fist of Etiquette]

You have all the livers you're supposed to have. Some of us don't have the number of kidneys we're supposed to have. THROUGH NO FAULT OF OUR OWN.

[SweatingGin]

Is it in Warty's Trophy Case? or stomach?

[Fist of Etiquette]

My twin ate it in the womb. So then I ate him. It was a whole thing.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Murderer!

[Fist of Etiquette]

It was in the womb. All's fair.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Not according to Ed.

[jesse.in.mb]

Livers regenerate, you can just take part of somebody else's stew on it for a while and return to drinking as normal. I wonder if you could divide them and have them grow two new livers like planaria...

Excuse me while I drag my least productive orphans to my laboratory. Won't be but a moment.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Oh hell no. I'm not paying for my replacement kidney. WHERE'S MY FREE KIDNEY?

[The Rt. Hon. Serious Man, Visc]

"Best use" is defined by what?

[SweatingGin]

bioethicists, of course!

[Fist of Etiquette]

LIBERTARIANS WANT IT TO BE DEFINED BY WALLET SIZE.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Hip implant lawyer commercial. Now we're talking Fox Biz.

[Francisco d Anconia]

How's that 50 year Cuban embargo working out?

If only there were some peaceful means of swaying people towards freedom/capitalism.

[Ted S.]

Why is it that the South African embargo is so self-evidently right and virtuous and what sort of a monster would you have to be to oppose it, while the Cuban embargo is so completely utterly evil?

[Francisco d Anconia]

Who says the SA embargo is right?

And because the Cuban embargo has been going on for 50 years without any result.

Might try another path.

AND I WANT CUBAN CIGARS!

[Ted S.]

I'm not saying I think it was right; more that that seems to be a very common opinion among the world's chattering classes. Surely you've heard news stories since Nelson Mandela's death demonizing people who disagreed with the SA embargo?

[Francisco d Anconia]

Do they have good cigars in SA?

[The Rt. Hon. Serious Man, Visc]

Wait, WELCH WROTE A BOOK?!

[Matt Welch]

DRINK! Or at least I am....

[The Rt. Hon. Serious Man, Visc]

It's like a tic. Been commenting here for too long I guess.

But seriously (heh), great show and thank you for engaging with us down here.

[SweatingGin]

FFS

[Fist of Etiquette]

Can you be a commie without nationalizes the means of production?

[Ted S.]

Yes, although you would technically call yourself a faschist in that case.

[Ted S.]

Er, "fascist" of course. But totalitarian collectivism is just as evil if it comes from the left as if it comes from the right.

[Some call me Tim?]

Fascism is really of the left.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Nuance? That's a nice way of putting it.

[SweatingGin]

It'd be interest to hear a dem/prog respond to the Vietnam/China Mandela story. Lately they're completely against NEOLIBERALISM!

[Irish]

Except they also don't know what neoliberalism is. I once heard a progressive claim that Japan and England are neoliberal.

Japan.

[SweatingGin]

But thatcher!

[Ted S.]

"Neoliberalism" seems like the latest code word with no real meaning other than to signal displeasure with your opponent and to try to shut down debate.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Had to slip Lou Reed in there.

I heard that he might have died?

[Fist of Etiquette]

Foster ain't feeling Kennedy's music as much as Welch.

[Matt Welch]

He's literally never heard these songs before.

[Irish]

Question:

If I choose to be cremated after death without giving my organs to anyone, no one throws a fit. If I choose to sell my organs, everyone freaks out because it could have gone to a dying 6 year old but went to a rich 45 year old instead.

By that logic, shouldn't we not allow anyone to die without giving up their organs? Shouldn't we force people to give up their organs after death?

I mean, why should you get to take your organs to the grave when a six year old might be dying somewhere?

[Raven Nation]

Larry Niven

[jesse.in.mb]

We should totally have a "don't give them any ideas" policy.

[Ted S.]

Surely you know they've already had that idea, toots. It's called "presumed consent".

[Fist of Etiquette]

Have Sullivan pee in a cup.

[Fist of Etiquette]

AH! Lou Dobbs.

[SweatingGin]

"And, now that the libertarians have had their fun, a counter point, from the Fascists"

[Francisco d Anconia]

As FOX hosts go, Dobbs isn't that terrible.

[SweatingGin]

It's been a while since I started calling him that -- it was when he was on CNN. Protectionism and a bit of social conservatism?

I haven't watched him for years. Am I missing any decentralizing themes? Anything (classical) liberal?

[Francisco d Anconia]

He certainly has changed his tune since CNN. Not sure which was/is the act?

[The Rt. Hon. Serious Man, Visc]

Heh, Lou Dobbs cut off Kennedy's sign off.

[Rhywun]

Well, that's my cue to flip back to Champions League on Fox Soccer+, where they are plugging the hell out of this show BTW.

[Timon 19]

You actually pay $16/month to watch stale CL games and Setanta reject programming?

[Rhywun]

No, it's like 2.50 a month on TW and I get Bein sports too. Not sure what 'Setanta reject' is but I get Aussie rules football too which... rules.

[Timon 19]

Wow, there's actually a better deal on TW vs. DirecTV? Granted, I get a metric shitload of sports channels including BeIn, pretty much every CL and Europa League game live on dedicated channels, Super Rugby on dedicated channels, Rugby internationals, and even a lot of Currie Cup and NZ domestic Rugby, and a bunch of other crap for something like $15, but FS+ is a further pile of cash (maybe they lowered it recently). No Aussie Rules, though, which sucks.

Isn't the handball season starting soon on BeIn?

Setanta is what FS+ used to be, back when it was closed-circuit or old-timey C-band satellite, mostly only available to bars. They moved to the cable and mainstream satellite providers for several years, then ran out of money and were bought out first by GolTV, then by Fox, then some properties by Al Jazeera. The AJ stuff turned into BeIn, the Fox stuff stayed on FS+, even after Fox Soccer went away.

[Rhywun]

I looked at Directv one time and it was crazy expensive to get the same deal (I also get GolTV and a bunch of hockey channels that I don't really watch) - the soccer channels were basically spread across several packages and I would have to buy them all.

Yeah I had heard of Setanta but that was "before my time" - i.e. before 2010.

[Timon 19]

I don't think DirecTV is that much more expensive than TWC. Plus, TWC is the Devil incarnate and I hate them so very, very much. Because of a stupid set of deals, that's my only option for broadband internet service, and they are incompetent shitheads. The service isn't a problem, but their billing is retarded.

AFAIK, only DirecTV has the full CL and Europa League slate with a sports package (a pretty low barrier). They have the BPL extra channels as well (the change to NBCSN pushed that along), so every single game is available. And of course they have the Rugby channels, which come with the sports package.

[Rhywun]

Also, how are the CL games 'stale' when they show one live one plus all the other ones from today...?

[Timon 19]

My standard is DirecTV, which shows them all live.

[Rhywun]

Well, I can only watch one at a time so that's good enough for me.

[slothropian]

Thought they were a little short with the ethics guy - would have liked to have heard more from him - but otherwise a much better program than last night. Still a tad circlejerky.

[RishJoMo]

Joe Danny says there is no way that will ever happen lol.

http://www.Anon-Get.tk