Stand Your Ground

The Connection Between Trayvon Martin's Death and 'Stand Your Ground' Remains Mysterious

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Senate Judiciary Committee

Today Sybrina Fulton, Trayvon Martin's mother, told a Senate subcommittee that "stand your ground" self-defense laws need to be revised, once again citing her son's death at the hands of George Zimmerman and Zimmerman's acquittal as evidence of the danger posed by eliminating the duty to retreat for people attacked in public places. Her testimony, prepared with help from the family's lawyers, is her strongest, most detailed effort yet to make this connection, but it still falls short:

The law should be changed to include language that clarifies its original intent, as articulated by Florida's former Governor Jeb Bush, who signed "Stand Your Ground" into law. Regarding our son's killing, Governor Bush said "'Stand Your Ground' means stand your ground. It doesn't mean chase after somebody who's turned their back."

Zimmerman's defense was not based on the right to stand your ground, since he claimed Martin knocked him down and pinned him, making escape impossible. Even if Zimmerman had attempted a "stand your ground" defense, it would not have covered chasing after someone who was running away, since it requires a reasonable fear of death or serious injury. But Fulton argues that the defense Zimmerman actually used or could have used does not really matter:

Many people have mistakenly assumed that because my son's killer did not apply for "Stand Your Ground" immunity during the trial, that this law was not a factor in his death. The truth is that the "Stand Your Ground" law in its entirety creates many opportunities for people to commit terrible acts of violence and evade justice. By being unclear in when and how it is applied, "Stand Your Ground" in its current form is far too open to abuse. Although we may never know for sure what was going through the head of our son's killer, we do know that our son's killer studied "Stand Your Ground" closely. That knowledge may have emboldened him to stalk my son and use lethal force even in a situation where it seemed unnecessary and certainly avoidable.

It seems unlikely that Zimmerman was thinking about the details of Florida's self-defense law when he got out of his car. If he thought far enough ahead to imagine a violent encounter, he probably would have stayed put and waited for police, in which case Martin would still be alive. But as the prosecution conceded during Zimmerman's trial, nothing he did until the fight with Martin began was illegal, even if we assume that Zimmerman continued to follow Martin after the police dispatcher suggested he stop. That would still be true if Florida had not abolished the duty to retreat. That duty applies to the use of force by someone who has been attacked. It does not apply to nonviolent actions by a neighborhood watch volunteer who is trying to keep an eye on someone he deems suspicious. 

Fulton complains that the Sanford Police Department did not immediately arrest Zimmerman, which she also blames on Florida's law. Here is the relevant provision:

A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force…but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful. 

In other words, it was not enough to know that Zimmerman had killed Martin, which he never denied. The police also needed reason to doubt Zimmerman's claim of self-defense. That probable cause requirement seems fair to me, although it may indeed have delayed Zimmerman's arrest.

By contrast, Fulton's complaint that we never heard her son's side of the story has nothing to do with any special provision of Florida's law:

How can we allow someone to escape liability for killing a total stranger he stalked, chased, and confronted, based solely on the killer's word? This seems like a classic example of circular logic. It is not logical to allow a person to commit a homicide and then turn around and allow them to speak for the deceased party whom they just killed. "Stand Your Ground" thus rewards killers for silencing their victims and claiming the deceased party was the aggressor in the matter.

Fulton surely is right that such one-sidedness makes it more difficult to get at the truth. But that is a problem in any case where someone claims to have killed in self-defense and there are no other witnesses to crucial parts of the encounter (although the witness who had the best view of Zimmerman's fight with Martin lent support to the defendant's account).

Even if "stand your ground" did not play any role in Zimmerman's defense, Fulton says, it may have played a role in his acquittal:

"Stand Your Ground" was also a factor in the way in which the jury in our son's case applied the law. First, the language of the law is not clear. We don't know for certain what happened during the jury deliberations, but we do know that the two jurors who have spoken publicly about the case both said that they were confused. In Trayvon's case, Juror B37 specifically mentioned "Stand Your Ground" multiple times in explaining her decision to set Trayvon's killer free. The laws relating to self-defense, which determine the guilt or innocence of killers, should be clear and easily understood by those tasked with applying them.

The "stand your ground" language that the jurors heard is part of the standard jury instruction in cases where the defendant claims his use of deadly force was justified. The defense asked for it to be included (why not?), and the judge agreed, but that does not mean it figured in the verdict. While Juror B37 did utter the phrase "stand your ground" a couple of times in the interview to which Fulton refers, she also made it clear that she believed the essential elements of Zimmerman's story: that Martin was the aggressor; that Zimmerman was pinned to the ground, unable to escape, when he fired his gun; and that Martin was assaulting Zimmerman in a way that made him reasonably fear for his life. That scenario has nothing to do with the right to stand your ground, and Zimmerman could have used exactly the same defense in any state, whether or not it imposes a duty to retreat.

Perhaps the jurors were "confused," as Fulton suggests, misunderstanding what "stand your ground" means. If so, they were not alone.

Fulton repeatedly conflates Zimmerman's decision to follow her son with violence:

The instructions to the jury included all the protections provided by "Stand Your Ground" without mentioning the primary traditional limitation. For centuries, first aggressors have been denied the right to claim self-defense when they lose fights they start. Our attorneys have explained to me that the "first aggressor" doctrine is a part of the common law tradition predating America, but to me it is just common sense. Allowing my son's killer to claim the protections of self-defense without constraining him with its accepted limitations violates Trayvon's rights by providing him with an unequal level of protection under the law. Everyone should be able to feel safe walking in public without fear that someone might randomly stalk, confront and kill them and get away with it because they are not around to tell the court what happened. Knowing that someone targeted and killed a person who was not bothering them or anyone else should be evidence enough.

If the fight occurred the way Zimmerman claimed, Martin was the "first aggressor" because he threw the first punch, which was not legally justified no matter how annoying or alarming Zimmerman's behavior was. Judging from Juror B37's comments, the jurors believed Martin was the one who started the fight. If they had been persuaded that Zimmerman was the aggressor, that he "targeted and killed a person who was not bothering [him]," they would not have acquitted him.

In the end, Fulton is determined to use her son's death as an argument against "stand your ground" laws, no matter how implausible that argument seems once you delve into the details of the law and the case: 

I am a mother, not a lawyer or a legislator. I don't pretend to know all the details of the law, policy or politics surrounding "Stand Your Ground." What I do know, and what I am reminded of every day, is that my son was murdered. He was walking home with a snack and minding his own business when a stranger stalked him, chased him after he ran, confronted him and finally killed him. I believe in my heart that "Stand Your Ground" shares responsibility for what has happened to my family. 

Fulton's desire to give her son's death meaning by linking it to a cause is perfectly understandable. But grief is not an argument. It is possible that Zimmerman's shooting of Martin was not justified, although the prosecution did not come close to proving that beyond a reasonable doubt. Furthermore, it is possible that some of the changes that Florida's legislators made to the state's self-defense law in 2005 were misguided. It is just hard to see any logical connection between these two propositions.

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94 responses to “The Connection Between Trayvon Martin's Death and 'Stand Your Ground' Remains Mysterious

  1. The Connection Between Trayvon Martin’s Death and ‘Stand Your Ground’ Remains Mysterious

    Are you serious? The connection is obvious: Trayvon Martin’s death was bad and racist, and Stand Your Ground is bad and racist.

    Therefore, Good Trayvon made dead by bad, racist Stand Your Ground laws.

    You clearly aren’t well versed in left-wing logic.

    1. 8 easy ways to avoid a deadly conflict when being followed by a stranger:

      http://platedlizard.blogspot.c…..eadly.html

      1. 9. Shit yourself so bad that the stranger calls 911 for hazmat containment.

        1. 10. Expel your regeneratable organs

          11. Escape in a cloud of ink

          12. Engorge yourself with water to appear larger

          1. Vote Democrat.

      2. 1. Now he knows where you live.
        2. If he’s following you, he will see you hide. If you can hide, how can you tell when he leaves?
        3. Good idea, if you have the time it will take the police to arrive.
        4. Good idea, if you have the time it will take for your rescuer to arrive and you don’t mind putting your rescuer in danger.
        5. Now he knows where you live. NEVER go home if you are being followed.
        6. I happen to be 66 years old. Anyone I can outrun isn’t dangerous.
        7. Good luck. You’re putting them in danger.
        8. If there’s a public place close enough to run to, and someone willing to help.

        The stranger may indeed be armed or dangerous. Which is why I’m legally armed.

        1. Sorry, Larry, but if Trayvon had gone straight home he would still be alive.

        2. My 8 suggestions do not apply in all cases, but had TM followed any of them, he’d still be alive.

  2. What is even the pretense of a reason given for the federal government holding hearings on state self-defense provisions?

    1. Oh come on now. That Constitution thingy was written like 100 years ago in a language nobody understands.

      1. I just went to Senator Durbin’s webpage. There he says ‘These laws have had harmful consequences when it comes to public safety and civil rights.’ so I guess that the ‘hook’ is equal protection concerns. The testimonies of the various witnesses are available there, and I must say John Lott and Ilya Somin’s remarks masterfully refute the criticisms of the Stand Your Ground Laws.

        http://www.durbin.senate.gov/p…..a8a5c176c5

        1. Yes, their remarks were excellent. (It was Ilya Shapiro, btw).

          1. Yes, you are correct I had the name wrong.

        2. “”Bo Cara Esq.|10.29.13 @ 8:18PM|#

          I just went to Senator Durbin’s webpage. There he says ‘These laws have had harmful consequences when it comes to public safety and civil rights.””

          Problem here is, you don’t speak Politician

          See, what that says in English is,

          Oh look = here is a time-sensitive issue lotsa blacks and proggy whites are all riled up about – although they know fuck all about what it really means -… so what *I* need to do ASAP is spit out a bunch of words none of them understand but which sound real authoritative and law-like and which they understand to mean, “HEY I’M WITH YOU GUYS! SOME SHIT WAS *WRONG* AND PROLLY RACIST AND AS YOUR DESIGNATED LAW-GUY, I’M A DO SOMETHING BOUT IT! WHO’S VOTING FOR *ME*?!”

          See. makes sense now.

    2. Dick Durbin runs the Senate Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights and Human Rights. What more reason do you need?

      1. Which is even worse than Saudi Arabia being on the UN Human Rights committee.

    3. Dick Durbin is the US Senator from Illinois where there almost no chance yet of having black adolescent shot to death by a half-Peruvian volunteer night watchman. And he wants to keep that way.

      1. As for the dozens of shootings of black adolescents by other black adolescents, well, one death is a tragedy and several thousand is a statistic, yeah?

        /Durbin

  3. Bloody toga/Passion play. Yawn.

  4. It needs to be more specific than “duty to retreat”.

    If someone is on top of you, beating your head into concrete, you have a duty to submit! If the beater wants to keep beating, that’s his prerogative!

    1. I have heard almost that exact argument from many progs. “George was a dirty cheater who should have taken his lumps like a man.” I’m pretty sure over 99% of the people who say this has never been in any kind of fight ever.

      When adults fight, it almost never stops until someone is incapacitated, sometimes fatally, or runs away. They are rarely broken up by 3rd parties before someone gets hurt.

  5. I am a mother, not a lawyer or a legislator.

    That’s fuckin’ great and all, lady, but I’m sure that ol’ Georgie Boy, the most infamous white-hispanic north of the rio grande, has a mother and she’d be pretty sad if the law let yer little delinquent smash his head to mush on the sidewalk.

    A wise man once said, “Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.” In other words, if you get off on attacking strangers because you think someone following you may be gay then your ass might end up shot the fuck up.

    1. Yup. I know I’m supposed to say something like “I’m sorry for your loss of your son,” but, frankly, I don’t mourn the loss of dangerous thugs. And I suspect she knows he was a dangerous thug, but now she’s going to do the martyred mother act and see how much money and status she can get from it. Go away, your 15 minutes are over.

      1. Ditto that. Mom should have raised her little thug better, then maybe he wouldn’t have been stupid enough to do something that got him taking the permanent dirtnap.

    2. Steve Sailer has also speculated that the motive for Martin’s turn-around and assault on Zimmerman came from a gay-bashing angle. Maybe. To speculate myself, I think Martin’s bravado came from his cell phone conversation with Jenteal. The one who became adamant about standing his ground was Martin, not Zimmerman.

      Whatever. I should watch a Columbo rerun or re-read a Chandler novel to get off on crime drama. Dick Durbin should do the same.

      1. “‘
        widget|10.29.13 @ 8:47PM|#

        Steve Sailer has also speculated that the motive for Martin’s turn-around and assault on Zimmerman came from a gay-bashing angle.”

        Steve Sailer is a complete douchehat.

        That is all.

      2. “To speculate myself, I think Martin’s bravado came from his cell phone conversation with Jenteal”

        No wait… I understand now. Speaking to that trollthing Jenteal, he suddenly realized he would be happier as a gay man, which riddled him with shame, so he lashed out and struck the nearest person he could find.

        Or, “he did it cause she ugly”, which I can understand entirely.

    3. Actually, she is not as over the top as it gets. Have you seen the videos of Zubeidat Tsarnaev?

      1. I think “The Dead Tsarnaevs” will be the name of my next rock and roll band.

      2. I’ve seen her, but she ain’t in front of congress trying to take away my right to self-defense.

  6. Stand your ground has some sort of vague connection with Republicans. Since everything bad is connected to Republicans in some way, Stand Your Ground must be involved. Shut up with your fucking logic, we’re trying to have a hate-in here.

    1. The rights of dangerous criminals of color are being infringed! Just more Republican racism.

    2. The vague connection is the individual doing something for themselves, rather than calling in a “professionally trained” agent of the state to take care of things.

  7. Why do people think SYG is a free pass for murder?

    If I wanted to kill someone and I provoked the target into mortally injuring me (so I can claim that I shot him in self defense), SYG won’t apply. Or that’s what I’ve been told.

    More importantly, I would have to get ARRESTED, because running away will sort of cramp the self defense strategy. I would spend months in jail hoping that the witnesses (if any) will all corroborate my story and and insist that I had ZERO motive to harm the victim in any way.

    1. Your error is to assume progs are thinking deeply or clearly about the issue. They are not. They are emoting.

    2. It’s also important to call the police just before you set the trap to murder some stranger for sport. Doing so will flummox everyone but Inspector Inspector Clouseau.

  8. This female needs to be punched in the cunt. Twice.

    Once for raising a gang banger.

    Once for willingly becoming a tool for the new-fascists who put “D” after their names.

    1. Why punch when you can kick her, preferably with steel-toed boots?

  9. I am a mother, not a lawyer or a legislator.

    [Pulls on suspenders] Now, I’m just a simple country mother, nothin’ fancy, but seems to me…

  10. The law should be changed to include language that clarifies its original intent, as articulated by Florida’s former Governor Jeb Bush, who signed “Stand Your Ground” into law. Regarding our son’s killing, Governor Bush said “‘Stand Your Ground’ means stand your ground. It doesn’t mean chase after somebody who’s turned their back.”

    Oh, I agree. Now back to the actual case, where you should not be dragged into court after you blow a hole in a guy who is beating your head against the concrete.

    1. Florida law:
      776.041?Use of force by aggressor.?The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
      (1)?Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
      (2)?Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
      (a)?Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
      (b)?In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

      1. Yep, so leave George alone and do something about these jokers who are assaulting people. Oh yea, George did do something about it and it was not illegal.

    1. I am not going to click that link. I will say that it comes as no surprise to me that men in the arab world want their women to engage in anal sex. No surprise at all.

    2. Saving the front for Mohammed?

      1. I wonder which is greater: the number of Latinos named “Jesus” or the number of Muslims named “Muhammad/Mohammed/et al.”?

        1. I once worked with a guy named Mohammed Mohammed. Does that count as one or two?

        2. The second; IIRC, Mohammad is actually the most popular name in the world.

      2. Homosexuality is extremely common in the middle east. I would say it is the norm actually. Pederasty too.

        I am not talking about homosexuality in the sense that you are homosexual, but in the sense of prison rape / animal dominance.

        They really are not civilized.

        1. Many around the world say the same about American tolerance of rape in our prisons as well as the absurdly high level of incarceration being proof of our barbarism. There is hardly any creed more backasswards at its foundations than Islam, but there is more to the cultures under its umbrella than a bunch of barely sapien assholes blowing shit up.

          1. America is not exceptional for prison rape. It is a phenomenon in almost all prison systems worldwide.

            1. It was even common with transportees to Australia, though it was apparently more common among English prisoners that with Irish ones.

            2. Yes. I was pointing out the non exception factor. See the post that I was responding too.

    3. The comment she makes about the prostitutes exposing themselves to HIV through anal sex is not quite on the mark. They expose themselves to HIV through prostitution. An oozing cunt sore is just a good incubator as an bloodied anal wart.

      1. Yes and no. Obviously even purely-vaginal prostitution puts one at high risk to contract HIV or the other STDs, but the odds of transmission are much higher with anal sex, which is the biggest reason why it’s so relatively prevalent among gay men

        1. All things being equal, yes, but if there’s any kind of abrasion/sores non-anal forms of sex can become dangerous pretty quickly. They even recommend not brushing your teeth before performing oral.

  11. Never let the truth interfere with the narrative.

    Dude who chewed off other dude’s face was on bath salts. Except that he really wasn’t. But that doesn’t matter. Bath salts cause people to turn into face-eaters.

    Deregulation of the banking industry caused the Great Recession. Except that no one can point to any regulations that were repealed. But that doesn’t matter. Without Bush personally deregulating banks, the Great Recession would never have happened.

    Without SYG, Martin might still be alive. Except that SYG did not apply in any way to the situation. But that doesn’t matter. SYG allowed a white man to get away with murdering a black boy.

    1. You left out the rethugs sabotaging O’care!

      1. By refusing to cross party lines and cast purely symbolic votes for the ACA, and by challenging the administration when it doesn’t stick to its own legislated timetable, and by arguing to delay an obviously unfinished product, the Republicans have seriously kneecapped Obama’s gift to all Americans.

  12. Stand your ground is why Lou Reed is dead.

    I HOPE YOU’RE HAPPY, FLORIDA.

    1. Did someone shoot Lou Reed’s liver?

  13. XM above:

    “Why do people think SYG is a free pass for murder?”

    That is the important question. Answer: They dont. This isnt about SYG. It is about self defense. These people do not believe in a person’s right to defend themselves. They are trying to nibble away at self defense. If you want to see the world they want, buy a ticket to limey-land.

    1. You’re right.

      I’ve read enough comments in self-defense stories to tell me that these fucks won’t be happy until we’re all disarmed and at the mercy of the lowest scum stalking the streets. There’ll be a home invasion story where the homeowner uses force to protect himself and people will make comments like, “The burglar probably just wanted some food for his kids, not to hurt anyone and this guy blew him away. The homeowner should be locked up, what a monster…”

      1. The specific case that came to my mind was the one where bobbies were going around ordering people to remove security fencing from their homes and sheds because burglars might injure themselves on it.

  14. The OTHER part of the truth (Martin threw away the sword and the pistol by his side, before he died, and the cops never found it, bumbling fools that they were), but here is the REAL truth:
    Martin went a fartin’,
    And he did ride,
    With a sword and a pistol
    By his side,
    Lookin’ for a “creepy ass cracker”
    To help him eat his skittles,
    So when he couldn’t find his spittoon,
    He spit instead in his shittooon,
    And shit instead in his spittoon,
    While the cow jumped over the moon,
    And the dish snorted coke with a spoon,
    And we’ll all know the truth real soon!

    1. WTF did I just read?

      You can’t force a new Urkobold. Or a new HERC.

      1. I miss Herc.

        1. I also [MISS] the [AGRI]TRIATHLONator.

          1. I liked him because his insanity was a nice big wall of text that could be easily scrolled past if I didn’t want to read it, instead of knowingly intellectually dishonest concern trolling and bogus citations splattered all over the place.

            1. I just thought he was [FUNNY]. I always read his posts.

              Hers? I assume “his”.

    2. Needs moar stupid

  15. Many people have mistakenly assumed that because my son’s killer did not apply for “Stand Your Ground” immunity during the trial, that this law was not a factor in his death.

    […]

    I am a mother, not a lawyer or a legislator. I don’t pretend to know all the details of the law[…]

    You certainly though you knew enough to give a lengthy testimony on how the law killed your son.

    She’s supposed to be a teacher. I am wondering if she ever proof-read the document to look for inconsistencies like the one I am pointing out before she went in front of the Senate to make a fool of herself.

    1. “I dont know all the facts, but it is clear that the police acted stupidly.”

      What are you talking about OM? She stole that line from our president, the greatest genius of all time and the second coming of christ who will save us all.

      I am resisting the temptation to go on and on the way middle eastern sultans from the past used to do.

    2. You missed the “Her testimony, prepared with help from the family’s lawyers” part.

      Note: “family’s lawyers

      Be interesting to know who’s paying them.

  16. grief is not an argument.

    It’s just contradiction!

    1. no it isn’t

  17. Fulton argues that the defense Zimmerman actually used or could have used does not really matter

    Further, it doesn’t really matter whether Zimmerman actually raped or could have raped Tawana Brawley.

  18. I like listening to the fantastical event timelines (which often have absolutely nothing in common with either the defense or prosecution’s versions) from people who think Zimmerman was in the wrong.

    Zimmerman was carrying a gun because he was itching to kill someone, as all gun owners secretly are in their heart of hearts. He’s on his neighborhood watch vigilante patrol, sees Martin (Obama’s would-be child, of course) and it enrages the white part of him into a racial fury… so he calls the cops, and then, despite carrying a gun and having called the cops, gets out of his car to instigate fisticuffs with Martin.

    Martin manages to best Zimmerman despite that MMA training the prosecution liked to go on about, and while his head is rebounding painlessly off the soft, squishy concrete sidewalk (see snarking about “weaponized concrete” on leftwing sites), he decides he can’t fight like a man anymore and draws his gun to shoot Martin. Alternatively: Zimmerman self-inflicted his head wounds after shooting Martin to justify it.

    For bonus points, ask people who think that something like that actually happened what “stand your ground” laws actually are.

    1. MYYYY BRAIN HURTS!!!!

      /DP Gumby

    2. Seems legit.

    3. You missed “Martin the unarmed child managed to best the much bigger Zimmerman”

  19. Wait, you mean the “libertarian” South Park, which portrayed Zimmerman using “Stand Your Ground” to murder Martin in cold blood, was incorrect?

    South Park is about as libertarian as John McCain.

    1. At least South Park is funny. McCain just gives me a headache.

  20. Bitcoin Baby – Fertility treatments paid for by bitcoin.

    Sloopy and Banjos: Kid 2’s middle name is up for auction, right? Does Bitcoin to a libertarian charity count for a bid? What about ‘Bitcoin’ as a middle name? too far?

  21. A nice prog fellow was giving the usual line about zimmerman, the jury reached the wrong verdict because racism, etc, and I said there was a recent case of a black homeowner getting acquitted after killing some white thug he was defending himself against. Did I get that story right?

    1. Yeah, the guy’s name is roderick scott. He killed a kid breaking into cars in his neighborhood. He was black and the kid was white. He was acquitted.

      Almost same deal. Kid was being a fucker, acted in a threatening manner when confronted, got killed, and had parents that tried to turn him into a martyr after his death.

      Wasn’t a huge case, but was known in firearm circles. The black dude was supported by racist gun owners.

      1. Thank you – I probably heard sbout this on this site but I forgot the guys name. Have the white parents go to congress and testify about the death of their precious darling by a gun wielding monster ,

      2. IIRC, that guy was in Rochester, NY. There was another case in Jacksonville, FL where a black Navy PO shot a white kid and was acquitted.

    2. Durdin’s webpage (linked above) refers to the Jordan Davis case in Jacksonville.

      Again the difference is that the shooter in this case has been charged with First Degree Murder and nobody is referring to it a a SYG case or even a self defense case.

  22. That Martin kid was a THUG, plain and simple!

    http://www.PlanetAnon.tk

    1. Who are you kidding, Anonbot, with a name like that. You’re just as wannabe street as the principal of this story. Clean up your own act before you cast aspersions on the deceased.

  23. only reason anyone heard of this horrible incident is because FL was up for grabs and the DNC needed to gin up the vunnables and white-guilt crowd (mostly upper middle class college kids). it worked. what mystery?

  24. Your son would be alive if he wasn’t a criminal who attacked someone. Had nothing to do with race only crime, a violent one perpetrated by tour son.

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