Virginia Election Offers a Real-World Test of Conservative Theory
The GOP is running a slate of socially-conservative candidates. Will the voters buy it?
Conservatives have a ready explanation whenever the GOP loses an election: The Republican candidate was too liberal.
You heard this again and again after Mitt Romney's loss to Barack Obama. "When conservative principles are the focal point of the election, they win," wrote Michael Walsh in National Review. "When 'electability' and 'reaching across the aisle' are personified in a middling candidate at the presidential level, they lose." The trouble with Romney, Walsh continued, was that he "spectacularly refused to engage the Democrats on an ideological level."
Red State's Erick Erickson seconded that motion: "Romney barely took on Barack Obama," he wrote as the electoral dust settled. "He drew few lines in the sand, made those fungible, and did not stand on many principles." A few days later, he repeated the message: "Mitt Romney tried to blur lines with Barack Obama. He did not defend social conservatism. …"
Chris Chocola, president of the Club For Growth, concurred: "The (Republican) party is rarely in a position to determine the best candidate. When you have someone who can articulate a clear, convincing, conservative message," he wrote, "they win."
"We wanted someone who would fight for us," complained Jenny Beth Martin of Tea Party Patriots. "What we got was a weak moderate candidate, hand-picked by the Beltway elites and country-club establishment wing of the Republican Party. The presidential loss is unequivocally on them." Martin delivered that judgment at a D.C. news conference where she was joined by other conservative luminaries such as direct-mail maestro Richard Viguerie and Marjorie Dannenfelser, president of Susan B. Anthony List, an anti-abortion group.
Thirty-four days from today, the Old Dominion will provide a real-world test of that theory. When Virginians go to the polls, they will have the opportunity to vote for the most conservative slate of statewide candidates in modern times.
Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli — for whom "tea party favorite" has become an all but official agnomen — outmaneuvered the Virginia GOP establishment to seize the gubernatorial nomination from the more moderate, less confrontational Bill Bolling. Bolling has since announced the creation of the Virginia Mainstream Project "to call our party back to a more mainstream approach."
Cuccinelli's conservatism is unadulterated: He fought the EPA over climate change and filed the first state suit against Obamacare. He opposes abortion even in cases of rape and incest; considers homosexuality "intrinsically wrong"; supports school choice, gun rights, and tax cuts; and takes a hard-line stance on illegal immigration. Three years ago, he even handed out lapel pins to his staff bearing a more demure version of the state seal — one that covered up the otherwise exposed breast of the Roman goddess Virtus. (Racy stuff, if you squint really hard.)
State Sen. Mark Obenshain, running for Attorney General, is less pugnacious but no less conservative than Cuccinelli. He has supported both fetal "personhood" legislation and requiring an ultrasound as a precondition of abortion; favors requiring a photo ID to vote; wants to drug-test welfare recipients; has a 100 percent rating from the American Conservative Union; and once introduced legislation permitting state regulators to yank the license of any business employing an illegal alien.
And then there is E.W. Jackson, the nominee for lieutenant governor, whose pronouncements on social issues go too far even for his running mates. An August Times-Dispatch profile summarized some of them, noting that Jackson has "linked homosexuality to pedophilia, called gays and lesbians 'sick' and 'perverted,' ridiculed President Barack Obama's Christian faith and accused the Democratic Party of being 'anti-God'. … Jackson (also has) said … 'the Democrat Party and Planned Parenthood are partners in this genocide'" — i.e., the aborting of black children. Sunday before last, he suggested people of non-Christian faiths practice a "false religion."
Talk about drawing lines in the sand. These are not milquetoast conservatives, hand-picked by country-club RINOs. These are red-meat conservatives of crystalline purity and adamantine resolve — picked at a tea party-heavy convention attended by 13,000 of "the most strident voices in" the GOP, as a Bolling spokeman put it back in May.
After years of enduring candidates too moderate for their tastes, fire-and-brimstone conservatives have the ticket they always dreamed of — precisely the sort of Republican ticket, they insist, that wins elections. It is also precisely the sort of Republican ticket dreamed of by Democrats — who, believing the GOP slate is far too extreme for any rational voter to support, have made its conservative principles the focal point of the election.
In 34 days, we'll find out whose theory is right.
This article originally appeared at the Richmond Times-Dispatch.
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It always seemed to me to mean "not fiscally conservative enough." I'm not sure who, other than the whackjobs at the fringe, really want more social conservatism from the federal government.
You're thinking like a libertariank, not a republican.
Thanks.
I'm a libertarian leaning republican, and I agree with Mohawk.
I rarely see calls for more social conservatism while perusing conservative blogs. They've mostly been pretty heavily fiscally conservative, with an occasional sprinkling of social conservatism for quite a few years.
Don't mistake what republican politicians and media say for popular republican opinion.
Yeah always wondered why the left focuses on social conservatives. I think the beef of the movement is in the fiscal ranks.
Seems to me a lot of energy is wasted on the people who believe in angels or don't want same sex marriage.
I think the left focuses on social conservatives because that's where they feel their strength is. They're really not good at talking economics, but if they thought economics was important, they wouldn't be on the left.
The left feels very strongly that it is in the right on social issues and that these are more important, which is why they try to focus on the social issues and focus attention on the more wild-eyed bible-thumping elements on the right who aren't good at talking economics, either.
You must have missed the last re-education session. It's the *right* which is hung up on social issues and uses these issues to trick blue-collar voters into opposing their own economic self-interest!
"Yeah always wondered why the left focuses on social conservatives."
Because they make for better marketing than fiscal conservatives. They're scarier. They make people afraid that the SOCON under their bed is going to drag the away to mass or something. The guys saying we shouldn't be wasting money of free crap wind up sounding reasonable.
No, I don't think the beef of the movement is in the fiscal ranks, at least not overwhelmingly or not to a degree that makes the traditionalists unimportant. Much is made in libertarian circles of the importance of Goldwater for President in reinvigorating the GOP, but I think that's wishful hx.
Au:H2O got creamed at the polls so badly that he actually discredited his ideology for a while. Nixon won thru Southern Strategy. Reagan didn't come to the fore nationally until the Religious Right had taken over many local Republican parties and gave "conservatism" and the GOP a big boost in the latter half of the 1970s.
Fortunately the Religious Right was mostly friendly to fiscal "conservatism", so libertarians and trads have been able to work a common agenda that's also copacetic with the Southern Strategy targets, as long as not too much progress is made. Together they've been about an equal counterweight against "liberals". Unfortunately the way those vectors resolve, there've been some losses in individual liberty along the way (though also many gains). But it wasn't Goldwaterites primarily responsible; after this much time, they can become Hillary Clinton, after all.
I agree NEM. Other than getting DOJ to go after porn and such, mostly the SOCONs just want the federal government to stop funding things they disagree with.
I really think Libertarians and SOCONS should be at each other's throats at the state and local level but should be willing to work to together on most things at the federal level.
Trouble being that the moralizers on both sides are not content to allow people in other states to continue to live immorally. I couldn't agree more that 99% of the social arguments should be happening at the state level, but take abortion as an example - neither side in that debate is even willing to entertain the idea of leaving it to states.
This moral equivalence leaves out some considerations:
-It's the choicers, not the prolifers, who can run to the federal courts to overturn state laws they don't like. The worst the prolifers have tried to do is sponsor unsuccessful Congressional bills to enforce the 14th Amendment, but the vast majority of their effort is put into getting laws passed at the state level and getting federal judges appointed who are willing to allow these laws to be enforced.
-Look at the choicers' favorite judges, and the favorites of the pro-lifers. The choicer judges like Ginsburg, Kennedy and their ilk want to second-guess the states on abortion, while the wacky extremists like Scalia and Thomas want to get the federal courts out of the abortion business altogether, leaving state laws alone.
Agreed that the current status quo is pro-choice, and the pro-lifers have to be the ones arguing for states' rights.
I personally, however, have not ever heard a pro-lifer express the intent to leave it as a states' rights issue if Roe v. Wade is ever overturned.
I could introduce you to my brother sometime.
He thinks Cuccinelli is too moderate and Jackson should be the Governor
Eh I cant blame republican voters for nominating people like Cuccinelli. For years the Democrats and the media have tarred anyone to the right of Pol Pot as a member of the Taliban. Well now Republicans nominated someone who really is extreme on many issues. At least the media will be telling the truth for once.
Also wasn't their some type of hijinks with the Lt Gov Republican nomination?
I was thinking about that this morning. The liberals bitch and moan about how "radical" the Republicans are now. Well, the Republicans tried to compromise. They nominated a NE mushy moderate named Mitt Romney for President. And the liberals painted him as a racist who hated women and every who voted for him as the same. And now the liberals are shocked that Republicans are no longer interested in letting moderates lead their party.
The Republicans nominated Mitt Romney after having used up and thrown out every semi-lucid rightwing assclown they could possibly find.
It is not liberals' fault that the Republican party is in a conservative purity death spiral. Of the few bad things in this world that aren't entirely liberals' fault, surely you can see that as one.
And the Democrats called him a racist and said he hated women even though there was no reason to believe that.
Here is the thing Tony, when you act like a hate filled piece of shit no matter what the other side does, they are eventually going to lose interest in compromising or listening to what you have to say.
If you don't like the state of the Republican Party, you have your side's own hate filled and divisive rhetoric and tactics to blame. Why should any conservative be interested in compromising? The entire Democratic Party is built around the hatred and dehumanization of white conservatives.
You are delusional on so many levels. For purely selfish partisan reasons, nothing could make liberals happier than the self-destruction of the Republican party. You what is difficult for people who are so encased inside the right-wing media bubble that they were actually shocked that Mitt Romney lost despite all the polls saying he was going to? Winning elections. Liberals couldn't have come up with a better long-term strategy if they tried. But blaming the GOP's problems on them is liberal derangement taken to a ludicrous place. Do you guys never take personal responsibility for anything?
And I don't recall anyone calling Mitt Romney a racist or woman-hater, or certainly not a concerted effort. Of course not everyone can be as civil and level-headed in their political rhetoric as Republicans. Kenyan Marxist Hitler is a term of respect, I suppose.
Yeah Tony. It is a delusion. You really are the least self aware person I have ever seen. You honestly have no idea how nasty and hatefilled both your thoughts and rhetoric are towards people you deem as the "other". It never occurs to you that anyone on the other side could have a sincere or well meaning point of view or that the other side could have reasonable criticisms of your side. You constantly call them racists, and sexists and every other sort of slur. And then you sit around and wonder why they have stopped trying to compromise with you.
If someone as far to the center as Mitt Romney is going to be treated the way he was in 2012, why would anyone try to go to the center? You go to the center in hopes of getting the other side to moderate as well. And nothing will ever moderate people like you. You need to look in the mirror Tony and wonder why they hate you so much.
Mitt Romney advocated a radical right-wing agenda that nobody believed he actually supported, but he had no choice given the state of the Republican primary electorate. He didn't make a serious attempt to moderate his positions or court nonwhite voters, because evidently Republicans are paralyzed by fear of being excommunicated by the far right. That was his choice. I really don't understand what point you're trying to make in all of this ridiculous gobbledygook of a rationalization. Democrats are meanies for winning an election? Now I'm perfectly comfortable with the fact that politics isn't beanbag, but it is completely absurd to claim that Democrats engaged in more demonization, name-calling, and vileness than Republicans. You really must think all the quasi-racist viciousness that escapes the mouths of conservatives every single day passes for politeness. Well I do often hear from you idiots that being accused of racism is the far greater harm than being a racist.
Keep it up with the politics of white male grievance. I'd remind you that it failed to work for Romney and will only fail more in the future, but I don't want you to win. Sorry about that; I know that's not playing fair.
That post almost virtuosic in its display of blame-liberals-for-everything. Now they're responsible for the radicalization of the Republican party. Wow. Newt Gingrich could fuck a giraffe and it would be liberals' fault for believing in public zoos.
Go back under your bridge, bitch.
Just as soon as you get out of your big plastic bubble.
You are a right-wing nut. It's right there in your name and evident in your posts. Is your worldview the fault of liberals and Democrats? If so, what did they do to you? Can you point to it on the doll?
Yeah Tony. And of course no one in the entire Democratic party is radical or out of the mainstream. The only radicals are those evil Rethuglicans.
You do realize what a piece of self satire you are?
I can't even begin to grasp what this post is supposed to mean. The existence of Bernie Sanders makes it untrue that the Republican party is effectively being controlled by its most radical wing? Does Bernie Sanders control the Democratic platform? Is Bernie Sanders even half the radical lunatic Ken Cucinelli is? Or are you thinking of someone else?
The existence of Bernie Sanders makes it untrue that the Republican party is effectively being controlled by its most radical wing?
What are the "wings" of the Republican Party? How many members do those wings claim? What are the common political positions of those wings? When did they develop? Who developed them? What parts of the country did those wings originate in?
Or are you just good at regurgitating talking points?
No, what I'm good at is getting a bunch of independent-minded nonpartisan libertarians to piss their pants over the slightest criticism of Republican politicians.
no, Tony; what you miss is that every post of yours includes either blind cheerleading for the failure of liberalism or the usual ad hominem that leads most sane people to react. It's like some on the right calling Obama teh anti-Christ.
He's not; he's just a guy who is either incompetent on a massive scale or malevolent in a manner few are willing to acknowledge. Given where things are vs where he found them, one of those conclusions is true. Maybe it's both but I'll give him part credit for not being evil AND inept.
Like a good little talk radio sheep all you have to do is say the words and they are true. Liberals didn't start marching in the streets until it was well clear that Bush was actively doing horrible, disastrous things. Obama's big evil crime seems to be presidenting while Democrat.
and again, you make my point. Anyone not in agreement with you is a slave to talk radio while the liberati march as individuals. And liberals marched against Bush almost as the first bombs began to fall, forgetting that Dem majorities in both Houses supported going to war, and then becoming conspicuously silent when Obama did the same things Bush did, and expanding droning and NSA authority.
Libertarians, most of the crowd here, didn't favor going to Iraq in the first place, didn't much like the Patriot Act when Bush first signed it or when Obama reauthorized it, and generally had consistency about their positions. You, not so much, doing exactly what you accuse Repubs of doing.
Claiming Obama is doing exactly what Bush did is nonsensical garbage. You can't blame me for mistaking you for a GOP bootlicker when you're making up lies in order to give Bush a pass.
NPR? Cuz that is the only talk radio I listen to. It's ok Tony, go on being an ignorant little bitch that gobbles up TEAM BLUE talking points about how uninformed everyone else is.
And TEAM BLUE was protesting Bush since Day (-60). Friends of mine were making Bush-Hitler photoshops BEFORE inauguration.
But its ok, just blank out any parts of your memory that don't support your TEAM BLUE ideology. After this thrashing I'm sure you won't remember anything about this tomorrow.
I just want to know why nobody bothered to pint out the Sanders isn't actually a Democrat. Really, John challenged to Tony to be the slightest bit non-partisan and he can't even pull that off. We really do need a better class of troll.
He's not; he's just a guy who is either incompetent on a massive scale or malevolent in a manner few are willing to acknowledge.
I'm going to disagree with this one. Obama is competent, he's just arrogant and doesn't care to listen to the other sides point of view. He believes in big government and thinks that in most cases, that's the best approach. Furthermore, he's unwilling to consider compromising unless he's forced to. If he feels like he's got the advantage he's going to ignore you, rail against you and attempt to push you out of the way. There's never been any major attempts to compromise or actively work with the other side in his entire governmental career.
So, no he's not incompetent. And he's not malevolent. He's just an eloquent ideologue who's good at projecting a reasonable persona. And he's an excellent orator, as long as, he's working from a prepared speech.
I notice you have yet to elaborate on exactly what makes the radically, radicalist, radicals of the extreme wing of TEAM Red so radically radical.
May I just take it as a concession that you don't know and are just repeating what your mommy told you?
Oh Please. Luck, or chance is the only reason my handle isn't LeftNut. But do go on judging people by their handle's on a comment board, it makes you seem oh so enlightened.
Now go back under your bridge like a good little bitch.
Well that little mystery is solved.
You write like a 3 year old.
I'd like to meet this prodigy.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say, yes, liberals pretty much have fucked up everything since, let's see, the late 19th century when it began to fuse with socialism to magically become progressivism.
They abandoned any thought of individual liberty a long, long time ago. Look, just look, at how they praised autocrats, communists, totalitarians and the like in the 20th century. Poems and art were dedicated to all sorts of demagogues.
While people not enslaved by the liberal doctrines saw through it all but yet somehow were either ignored or scorned by leftists - who had all the answers to man's ills.
Just my take.
Your take is delusional. Liberals have been behind every advance in individual liberty and prosperity of the past 100+ years. Conservatives have been the reactionary force at every single step of the way.
Only if you define "liberal" as "being behind every advance" and "conservative" as "being against every advance."
Circular argument.
I do! It's why I'm comfortable calling myself a liberal. I don't take it to mean some specific religion-like sect. I take it to mean "in favor of progressive values." The people who supported universal suffrage were by definition liberals, same with those who supported the advent of social safety nets and those who supported the Civil Rights movement. Whatever they called themselves, that is the political tradition I want to be a part of. And at every step on this path there were reactionaries, people opposed to progressiveness, people invested in, if you get down to it, maintaining white male heterosexual and wealthy privilege at the expense of everyone else. You can call them anything you want, but it's the actual meaningful progress that I care about.
No wonder your such a little fucking fascist. You define every bit of historical development to your ideology, and everything else as being against it.
Such utterly asinine, historically inept, and simplistic reasoning perfectly explains how you could see the black death as libertarians fault.
I really, truly have nothing but pity for you.
It's not as bad as all that. All I'm saying is that I favor the things I favor and am not so concerned with attaching a label to it, but I'll do so out of convenience. Entirely different people supported the end of slavery and the end of Jim Crow, because several generations separated them. It's not a group of people or a text or something I'm adhering to, but the history and future of social progress. That's all. You on the other hand are comfortable calling yourself a libertarian, right? That is as cult-like a political "team" as there ever was in this country.
Entirely different people supported the end of slavery and the end of Jim Crow,
Different people--but the same party.
And the same party that supported both Jim Crow and keeping slavery legal is the party you endlessly support. And that party was the same party that did all the progressive shit that you love.
All the progressive shit that is in no way a furtherance of individual liberty.
Give me a fucking break with this Glenn Beck bullshit. I'm saying exactly the opposite of what you're claiming--whoever supported the good in those instances is who I identify with. I don't give a shit what they called themselves at the time.
And as you should well know the parties have basically switched places in terms of politics over the past 2 centuries.
You realize how immature you sound. You are saying what you support is good and what you don't is bad simply because you support them. I had a better understanding of history and politics when I was 6. Then to top it all off you claim labels other than the one you use yourself are somehow "cult-like" and yet yours is somehow fine.
If you are above the age of 13 please go see a psychiatrist. I think you might have a serious mental disorder.
He is saying that he supports everything that is good. He is a liberal. Conservatives are opposed to liberals. Therefore, conservatives are opposed to everything that is good.
Wow, when you define an "advance" as every thing that has happened that my tribe agrees with currently, I guess it's pretty easy to not be self-aware.
Yeah, I guess that essay I wrote in university arguing along those lines earning me top grade was all "delusional."
You're a clown.
The liberalism you speak of is classical and long gone. YOUR type of liberalism is progressive and is not rooted in rationalism or anywhere connected to the Enlightenment heritage. We've been over this Tony.
You can't make or form any rational argument that, say, Obama is part of the liberal tradition you speak of. Heck, after reading your stuff I concluded long ago you're not either.
Again, from the top, you're a socialist. A progressive. You like coercion. Hence, you're not classically liberal.
Hence, you're not classically liberal.
I think it's pretty clear that Tony has no idea what that term means. When it comes to choosing between Liberty and Security, Tony always chooses Security, but then insists his choice was actually pro-Liberty.
Not to mention his hilarious interpretation of history is hideous. He confuses his tribe with the liberal traditions of Hume, Smith, Bastiat, Montesquieu, etc. And the funny thing is, those guys would probably be today's libertarians since they pretty much were conservative. The stuff they wrote would be considered 'extremist' or even 'racist' by the likes of Tony who I honestly don't believe ever read their actual works.
It can only explain why they think this way.
Modern liberals are no more related to the Enlightenment than I am to Kang and Kodos.
Damn. I keep forgetting.
Tony!
Psh.
(That's my opening a can sound).
I am a conservative in many ways.
But modern liberalism, to which I most strongly identify, distinguishes itself by its pragmatism, that is, by its total willingness to try new things to make life better for human beings. Libertarianism is a comparative marble sculpture, with the same answers for all people for all times.
Riiiight. Because the thought and speech police of a modern day liberal must be good 'cause, um, they're good. Because stealing through a progressive income tax code is good as long as the ends justify the means.
The "same answer" for all people for all times in Libertarianism is that you are free (and have the personal responsibility) to make of your life what you will. In contrast your statist and static answer for everyone is that your life outside of what you do with your dangly bits must be planned for by your betters. Only they know how much you are allowed to earn and what you can say and do. Only they know the acceptable professions, and only they know genuine truthiness.
Progs are the living incarnation of evil.
Now go and call me a racist. I am a racist. It's posts like yours that make me hate my species.
So you're for freedom and self-determination? What about rainbows and puppy dogs?
I thought it was just a matter of the federal governments continuing expansion across the Potomac, swelling the numbers in NOVA to a point where Dems will have guaranteed wins in state wide elections.
I mean the Dem candidate is vowing to do everything in an Obama wet dream, including severe 2nd amendment restrictions and all sorts of climate change non-sense. What conservative is going to change their vote for that?
Thats very much part of the longer term trend for sure. VA is just becoming an outcrop of DC, much like what has already happened to Maryland.
But the Republicans' difficulties in this elections specifically has more to it. McDonnel won in a huge landslide just 4 years ago for instance.
North east Virginia is a suburb of Washington . It has had an influx of government workers, mostly Democrats. They are now purple verging on blue. I am not sure that this is a good test of conservative theory. Besides, I think a slate of libertarian candidates would be much more successful.
I think a slate of libertarian candidates would be much more successful.
Doesn't follow from...
It has had an influx of government workers, mostly Democrats. They are now purple verging on blue.
Typical libertarian delusion that Democrat voters really don't really support the Democrat agenda. If this theory had any merit then Chicago and Detroit should have Libertarian office holders everywhere.
The Libertarian Party is running a candidate for governor, so if Cuccinelli loses they'll blame him. "He stole our votes blah blah blah."
With Sarvis polling around 7% and Cuccinelli ~3% behind McAuliffe, that's a reasonable take. That said, Sarvis doesn't have an obligation to step down. If Cuccinelli wants to neutralize the Sarvis threat to his campaign, he needs to proactively win over those voters. If not, he has nobody to blame but himself.
But how can he win those voters without losing voters on net?
It's gonna be so funny if my comment gets marked as spam.
Hinkle, how could you not mention vachildpredators.com/???
I think the entire question of "too conservative versus not conservative enough" is a bit of a red herring. The key issue is whether the Republicans are able to articulate a coherent conservative vision of governance. The progressives have one, as godawful as it is. Their vision amounts to the public surrendering most of their liberties to technocratic elites in exchange for being "looked after" by those elites. The Republicans, on the other hand, either fundamentally buy into the progressive vision or can't offer an alternative. At risk of engaging in a bit of libertarian self-aggrandizement, that probably makes sense. The closest thing to a coherent conservative vision of governance is libertarianism.
a lot of conservatives subscribe to a version of the liberal argument - having specific things looked after by their own brand of elites for the sake of the greater good. Look at the paternalism with the abortion argument in this story; how is that different, except for the issue, than what we get from the left regarding blacks?
Repubs talk about limited govt while liberals ignore it altogether. Ironically, it makes the left more honest since Dems make no pretense of wanting to reduce govt power.
I do see your point and basically agree. But, that precisely explains why the left winds up winning. Once you accept the premise that people are unfit to live their own lives outside the direction of their "betters" (whether smarter, more educated, or more moral), there's really very little reason to favor conservatism over progressivism. The questions wind up boiling down to are we ruled intelligently or by habit.
The questions wind up boiling down to are we ruled intelligently or by habit.
as Hillary might say - what difference, at that point, does it make? Ruled is still ruled, isn't it. And you're right, once you have ceded responsibility of your life, conservatism holds far less appeal.
"Ruled is still ruled, isn't it."
Yes it is. And when conservatives take ruled as a given, it should hardly come as a surprise when people choose progressivism.
Abortion's a bad fight to pick, considering there's libertarian arguments for and against, and frankly, the libertarian argument against abortion logically comes out looking a lot like Cuccinelli's position (as far as I can muster from a quick read)
I thought the libertarian argument is that it's a moral decision and that government isn't supposed to be making those decisions on behalf of the individual.
Not aggressing against another human being is a moral decision. So the government is not supposed to prevent aggressions?
It all depends upon which point in time during its development a potential person becomes an individual, deserving of the same protections and dignity as any other. If someone like me considers a human to become and individual at the beginning of neural activity, it precludes most abortion in accordance with the non-aggression principle.
The trouble is, the "conservative vision of governance" doesn't exist without their coalition's breaking down. The Democrats don't have to worry much about that, they can roll logs and all have a free lunch at the expense of others who aren't paying att'n. But "conservatives" stay together only as opponents of "liberals"; fortunately the "liberals" and the Democrats have made it very easy for them to do so.
This is a formula for rowing against the current to stay in place, with no anchor. And I'm glad that's been the case, because the current is an ill one.
He has supported both fetal "personhood" legislation and requiring an ultrasound as a precondition of abortion; favors requiring a photo ID to vote; wants to drug-test welfare recipients; has a 100 percent rating from the American Conservative Union; and once introduced legislation permitting state regulators to yank the license of any business employing an illegal alien.
But what does he think about prayer in schools? The public has a right to know!
Jackson (also has) said ... 'the Democrat Party and Planned Parenthood are partners in this genocide'" ? i.e., the aborting of black children.
I wasn't even aware that this was a controversial position. Or are we still pretending that the American Eugenics movement and (to steal a page from Tony w/o spaces' playbook) the ultraradical Progressive wing of the Democrat Party that rules it, haven't been busom-buddies from the outset?
PP may support this but blacks, by and large, are not frequent fliers on the abortion train.
Yes, Jackson kind of takes it personally that the leading abortion provider in the US was founded by a woman obsessed with purifying the "race," getting rid of "human weeds," etc., and who spoke at a ladies' auxiliary of the KKK.
If Chik Fil A had even a tenth of that racist history, the word "genocide" would be bandied about in the same quarters who are horrified by Jackson.
The problem is that republican candidates have to sell the concept of conservatism to the left-leaners and prove they follow those concepts to the conservative voters. What they typically do instead is try to appear as though they are in the middle as away to attract more of the left wing voters vs. challenging their principals.
If Libertarians had the right branding and support they would do much better against democrats since the would share more ideals with the voters vs. trying to fool them with a wishy-washy shill.
Challenging their principals or their principles? The spelling makes a difference, and you could mean either one.
Challenging their main backers (their principals) or their core ideas (their principles)? Of course you might've meant both.
I think wishy-washy shills have a good shot at fooling people, and may be the best bet in most cases. If you don't think so, ask people what associations come to mind with the song "Born In The USA". It's all about how closely you pay att'n, and nobody can pay close att'n to everything; we call the people who try to "hyperactive".
It's almost impossible to be in a right wing bubble in America today. News and pop culture is dominated by statist thinking Tony.
SoCon's will always be tarred and feathered by that media culture, so in some ways they are damned if they speak out, damned if they don't. But it's also true the larger culture is getting more live and let live, so besides Late Abortion and maybe making nuns pass out condoms are the few things SoCons have a chance of changing with the state's power.
Stop spending and wasting money is the winning message. And over-regulation.
I saw a great example of this last night catching up on some old 30 rock episodes. They don't even try to hide that the show and NBC in general are big supporters of the Democrats and are geared towards making the Republicans look bad.
In that particular episode figuring out the best way to make Obama look better int he election was the main plot. This wasn't via biased news casts, but the shows used for entertainment.
It is an article of faith in the conservative "ideas" sphere that "news and pop culture" and anything that isn't FOX News, talk radio, or a few rightwing websites is part of the giant liberal conspiracy. Conservatives reject every factual element of the world from entire fields of science to election night poll numbers if it suits their narrative. There very much is a right-wing bubble, and I'm as fascinated as anyone as to why it persists despite this being the age of the Internet. Clearly people are just not always good at objectivity.
The more accessible mass communication that exits, the easier it is to find someone to listen to that only says what you want to hear.
However to say there is no liberal media bias you have to have your own flavor of delusion not to see it.
Fictional works for entertainment always treat the liberal ideas as the normal state of society that the characters accept without controversy. White businessmen are always portrayed as evil and greedy. Shows like 24 glorify the use of surveillance and ignoring the rights of citizens to catch the bad guy, etc.
I think you'll find that most people who identify as leftists consider 24 to be right-wing propaganda.
Every political ideologue sees the media as being in a conspiracy against their ideas.
Both Dems and Reps have contradictions in their platform. Surveillance and censorship is just the byproduct of a practical socialistic society. People don't really buy into this idea of sacrificing one's self for the good of the whole, so they have to be watched and forced into submission to stay in line. Which means that if you want this big government take-care-of-me society you have pay the price with your liberty. If you agree with that your a liberal, if you think you can have one without the other your a naive liberal.
I'm as fascinated as anyone as to why it persists despite this being the age of the Internet. Clearly people are just not always good at objectivity.
Which is why they need clear-thinking, objective people like yourself (yeah, yeah, stop laughing), to tell them what to do?
Tony w/o spaces, you truly are an authoritarian little shit.
Whenever you decide that you identify with a particular ideological group, defining yourself against all who disagree with you, all who disagree with you start to seem united. Once you decide that all who disagree with you are united, it is easy to come to the conclusion that all who disgree with you are self-contradicting hypocrites.
You will tend to recognize the different factions and different beliefs in your own team, and forgive deviations here and there, or not see such-and-such group as being really representative, but EVERYBODY who disagrees with you is all together on the same page trying to unite wildly disparate ideas.
It's not just Tony - John has the same mentality, which is why they spend such huge parts of every day at each other's throats.
The "left-right," "liberal-conservative" distinction is bullshit. Stop wasting your time on it.
I don't buy any attempt to create a false equivalence. It is not logical to claim that as one side becomes more extreme and insular, the other must be doing so at an equal pace in the opposite direction. Liberals do not see science as optional. Conservatives do. That's an important difference.
At some point you've got to sit down and wonder if most of the news media, entertainment, academia, and science are against you, maybe the problem is not with them.
"I don't buy any attempt to create a false equivalence."
I agree - the conservatives posters are more honest than you, not that they should be proud of the fact, it's like being smarter than a turnip.
What is false is the assumption that there are two "sides" and that one is right and the other is wrong.
Your perception that there are two sides is a projection of your sense of "self" and "other." That's why the "other" seems so crazy and sinister.
"Liberals" are not a thing. "Conservatives" are not a thing. These are illusions defined by your own sense of self, and they have very little to do with the real world.
In American politics there are two sides, and it can't be the case that both are right since at least one side defines itself as reactionary to the other. I really do believe one side is mostly right and one side is mostly wrong. It is the simplest explanation of things, actually.
It is also true that human beings are complex and their beliefs don't fall so neatly into camps. But I understood this long ago, and was even devoutly independent when I was younger. But something anomalous is happening with the Republican party. It's one of the most insidious lies in mainstream political punditry that it's still a debate between two equally rational perspectives. One side (only in terms of American politics) has gone crazy, and that's both interesting and terrifying, but it's most definitely a fact any objective person should acknowledge.
Simple != correct.
Just because most people prefer either/or thinking, that doesn't mean that the real world is actually an either/or place.
The Republican Party is a mess right now, and believe me I can identify with the Bush adminstration pushing you into an anti-Republican place - they did the same to me.
The absolutely crucial point though is that the Republicans being asswipes doesn't mean anything whatsoever about the Democrats not being asswipes.
Truly clear thinking requires us to objectively assess their relative levels of asswipery. Insisting upon shutting your brain off and making them equal is just to give extra credit to Republicans.
The folly is in thinking that the two dominant American political parties define the entire intellectual realm. The two-party system fosters a habit of pidgeon-holing absolutely every idea into one box or another - left or right.
Once any individual chooses a team, they are going to assume that THEIR way of looking at things defines their whole team, while the most extreme, crazy and evil elements on "the other side" represent the other team.
Lots of people here are guilty of doing the same thing to liberals.
The two Parties, however, are precisely morally equal because neither has ever done anything besides react to the other.
One side has gone crazy, and that's both interesting and terrifying, but it's most definitely a fact any objective person should acknowledge.
No, Tony that's an opinion and a pretty silly one at that. I think a large part of your incoherence is not understanding the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.
To be fair, I see even smart people fall into this trap, but it does seem that it's more common on the Left. That's clearly an anecdotal observation, however.
Liberals do not see science as optional.
To idiots like Tony, science has nothing to do with experimentation, trial and error, observable data, or falsifiable theories.
To him, "science" is shorthand for "received wisdom from the secular priesthood in white coats" which makes him no different from those who blindly follow the Torah, Bible, Quran, the Dhammapada (*waves at HM*), or the Vedic texts.
People in white coats who have engaged in the process of science. Just as you appeal to in every non-politically-controversial scientific field known to man.
You like science, Tony? How 'bout that science? Proof that liberals are more close minded than conservatives.
It's not a conspiracy Tony. It's just that the vast majority of people in the media, entertainment and at the levers of pop cultural are all left/democrats.
Which means that they all filter their world's experiences through that lense, causing a bias.
Its why we have movies about the struggles of gay people and not movies about the struggles of young christians trying to be faithful.
It's why corporations are always depicted in movies as evil fat cat stereotypes but government actors, who are not rougue elements, are almost always heros
It's why Wendy Davis is a saint, but Ted Cruz is a nut.
This is how the world works. It is much harder for a conservative to live in a total cultural bubble than it is for a liberal. This is why so many of you liberals think you are moderates. Because you have so little exposure to conservative people and their values in your lives, that if you arent quite a marxist, you must be a moderate.
This is nothing but the great conservative whine. The ironic thing is conservatives' worldview insists that they are more industrious than we parasitic moocher liberals. Why can't conservative Christians go make good movies that succeed in the marketplace? It's not a liberal conspiracy. It's because conservative Christians just aren't good at making movies. Or making good music. Or writing books. Or governing. Let's apply Occam's razor here. Either, despite their inherent laziness and inability to innovate and accomplish things, liberals have managed a massive global conspiracy excluding conservatives from nearly all popular and academic realms, or, just maybe, conservatives are just dumb people who lack the imagination to do these things. Of course science backs this up (self-identified conservatives are less open to new ideas, etc.), but science is optional to conservatives, so what's the point?
Did you read what I said Tony? I'm not making any arguments for why these things are the way they are, nor is it a conspiracy. This just is the way it is.
You made a couple points that I can't get behind. Wendy Davis was a hero because she was standing up for good values in the face of pigheaded nasty anti-woman Republican legislation. Ted Cruz is a grandstanding charlatan because he was, well, grandstanding against people getting access to healthcare. Of course nobody's forcing you to take that perspective, say if you think government should be forcing itself into women's uteri or if you think the ACA is the devil the conservative media has vaguely defined it to be.
I do think you are right that liberals often too cavalierly dismiss the values of conservative people, and I actually do try to empathize with people who simply come with a different perspective (though I don't tolerate religion as an excuse for believing something--and that is a major aspect of conservatism you must admit). I can even almost see why rural conservatives value their guns to a degree that is perplexing to liberals. But it's a two-way street. Conservatives should also try to understand why urban liberals might value gun controls, shouldn't they?
This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about above:
"I don't tolerate religion as an excuse for believing something--and that is a major aspect of conservatism you must admit."
You are not considering that (at least in my experience) most of the people who post on this site are atheists.
You are also not considering that the vast majority of faithful Catholics are Democrats.
You don't see Catholic Democrats as being "central" to the "liberal worldview" - they're an exception. But you do see conservative Christians as being central to the "conservative" view, even though you probably know that most people here are atheists.
Therefore, you exclude what you see as "correct" (atheism) from the "conservative view" and exclude what you see as "incorrect" (religion) from the "liberal view" even though the very concept of "social justice" came from a Jesuit.
You wouldn't reject "social justice," though, just because it came from a religious person, would you?
What does your perception that "religion" is somehow a "major aspect of conservatism" have anything to do with libertarianism?
I wasn't really talking about libertarianism. I don't accept religion as justifying anything. If a religious group had a good idea about how human beings should live, well sometimes religious people have good ideas.
I didn't think it was a controversial claim that American conservatives are largely religious fundamentalists. I'd be happy to be shown to be wrong about that.
You are defining "American conservatives" as "religious fundamentalists" and then stretching that definition to include all kinds of people who aren't described by it.
Either that, or you are obsessing over a comparatively small group of people that no one here really supports.
As has been pointed out repeatedly, Tony w/o spaces, and those like him, are hypocrites of the highest order. When they refuse to yield or budge on a point, they are being "principled" (not that principle means anything to them because their "principles" can shift at a moment's notice and with no more reason than with what they acquired their previous "principle"). When Rand Paul or Ted Cruz does the exact same thing, but for a different cause, they are "grandstanding" and "obstructing" and being controlled by "the most extremely extremist elements of the right wing of the Republican Party."
How many times does it have to be explained to you that "insurance" =/= "medicine"? When that adjuster put a finger up your ass, it wasn't for a medical procedure.
ACA doesn't help anyone. It forces people. You must be a sockpuppet, no one's this stupid.
More concern trolling from Hinkle. Why is he on Reason again?
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