A.M. Links: Obama Tasks Clapper With Heading Surveillance Review, Bloomberg Defends Stop and Frisk, North Carolina Gov. Signs Voter ID Bill

Credit: Office of the Director of National Intelligence/wikimedia

• Obama has directed Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, who has been accused of lying to Congress, to head up a review of government surveillance programs.

• New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg has said that "countless lives" have been saved by the NYPD's Stop and Frisk program, which was recently ruled unconstitutional by a federal judge.

• North Carolina Governor Patrick McCrory has signed a bill that introduces strict photo identification requirements for voters. Civil rights groups have filed lawsuits in response.

• Israel is going ahead with plans to build 900 new settlement housing units in East Jerusalem.

• A Philadelphia police officer who lost his job after being caught on camera punching a woman during a parade has been given his job back.

• Facebook is buying the 12-year-old voice-based browsing company Mobile Technologies.

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Comments

[Fist of Etiquette]

A Philadelphia police officer who lost his job after being caught on camera punching a woman during a parade has been given his job back.

Essentially a Philadelphia law enforcement officer can't be fired without being convicted of his crime. I don't know why they're so worked up about being filmed in public. Video evidence doesn't appear to make a difference.

[Ted S.]

You don't know the totality of the circumstances! You're just a member of the bigorati!

Powerlifting! Curves gym! Surf Team! Morgan Fairchild!

HTH Smooches.

[Andrew S.]

Almost. You're missing the vague, unnecessary, made-up-on-the-spot acronym.

[Lord Humungus]

like "POiFA"?

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

itfpapic

[Clich? Bandit]

and proper capitalization...that has to go.

[Lord Humungus]

An elegant weapon, for a more civilized age:

Old Town Muggers Take Wichita Man's Lightsabers

[mr simple]

If he had spent more time training and less time wishing for adventure, this might not have happened.

[The Last American Hero]

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster.

[CE]

Try for my lightsaber again with your remaining hand and I'll have to respond appropriately.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Israel is going ahead with plans to build 900 new settlement housing units in East Jerusalem.

Alternate headline: Housing starts up in East Jerusalem!

[a better weapon]

Experts believe the economy has turned the corner! An increase in new construction has sparked confidence that the economy is roaring back to life!

See, I could be a copy editor at Reuters. No problem.

[invisible furry hand]

You spell too well

[db]

Hell, it is well to spell well.

[CampingInYourPark]

"Housing Starts Rise Unexpectedly"

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

"Israel is going ahead with plans to build 900 new settlement housing units in East Jerusalem."

You know who else relocated Jewish people?

[SIV]

Henry Flagler?

[mr simple]

Moses?

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

This was the answer I was looking for. Thanks to all of our contestants...

[fish]

Bekins?

[The DerpRider]

Sandy Koufax?

[Pro Libertate]

Cyrus the Great?

[CE]

Florida housing developments?

[Slammer]

Have fun deconstructing all the bullshit in this article. NYPD: now crime will go up!!

[Rhywun]

I can't read that without throwing up. The Post and the Daily News are apoplectic at the thought of people fighting back for their goddamn constitutional rights. Fuck them, seriously.

[sgs]

It's almost like they don't realize that all those unconstitutional stop and frisks were crimes.

[Rhywun]

It's hard to think straight with your mouth full.

[CE]

Assaults under color of law and unlawful searches will drop drastically, however.

[Lord Humungus]

Older drinkers going to die soon anyway

After health officials advised him to drink fewer pints, 78-year-old Tom Logan said: "You may have heard of something called a life span.

"As I reach the end of mine, I cannot think of any compelling reason to drink less. I know a couple of people in their nineties and trust me, being that old is absolutely terrible.

"Also what else am I going to do with my time ? a free course in basic internet skills at my local library?

"Frankly I'd rather sit at this bar looking red and moody."

[BiMonSciFiCon]

When I hit 80 it's nothing but spinach and grapefruit juice for me.

And by that I mean whiskey, wine, beer and French fries.

[a better weapon]

No one wants to grow old, but at least having fewer fucks to give seems appealing.

From the age of 70 to when he finally passed at 86 my grandfather was eating McDonalds breakfast every morning and making sure his velvet Crown bag never collected dust.

[Lady Bertrum]

I plan on becoming a pothead when I reach retirement age. I don't smoke it now and drink only minimally. I choose pot over alcohol because I don't want hangovers. It'll probably be legal by the time I retire.

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

This. Red wine and migraines don't go together.

[Lord Humungus]

that's my plan too... a nice garden in the country to grow my own weed.

[mad libertarian guy]

It'll probably be legal by the time I retire.

Even if it isn't, you should probably do it anyways.

[The DerpRider]

We are all Tom Logan.

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

Clap on, clap off, clap on, clap off...

[DJF]

Every time James Clapper lies his head gets bigger.

[DontShootMe]

that can't be true, if it were, his head would be qualified to be a planet, even by the new "post Pluto" standards.

[SugarFree]

CVS begins to limit the purchase of nail polisher remover and demands ID for what they will sell, because meth.

[invisible furry hand]

what sort of fool uses acetone nail polish remover anyway? The non-acetone version can't be used for making meth (so no sale restrictions) and makes a better Manhattan

[Thane runs off sobbing]

To dissolve superglue

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

And I said nothing when they came for the ghetto nails

[Tim]

Save them children!

[BakedPenguin]

Maybe they should just ban chemistry books at this point.

[SugarFree]

Texas and a few other states limit the sale of most laboratory supplies. Finally, the scourge of Erlenmeyer Flasks has been vanquished.

[Brett L]

The first episode of Breaking Bad was awesome for that.

WW:"And the piece de resistance... a three liter round bottom flask!"

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

I consider you PWNED in this regard!

[sgs]

You shou7ldn't, you were late and you're both quoting a shitty TV show.

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

"You'vve got your usual paraphernalia and Griffin beakers, your Erlenmeyer flask, but the piece de resistance, your round-bottom boiling flask, 5,000 milliliters."

[Brett L]

Damn, yeah, I knew it was bigger than 3 liters, but they don't make 4 liter flasks, because we call those "gallons" here.

[Suthenboy]

I tried to buy a separatory flask in San Antonio once....holy shit I thought the swat team was going to show up.

That was ten years ago and I had no idea that anyone would be stupid enough to restrict lab supplies. Fucking idiots.

[db]

I bet there's an underground market for good glass blowers.

[Dr. Frankenstein]

Remember when they used to sell chemistry sets to kids.

[jesse.in.mb]

Back when you could get the Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments before the USG had it removed from libraries for being too dangerous (at least that's the story)

[Brett L]

They'll take my Orgo texts from my cold dead hands. (Which may or may not still be attached to my body depending on how well I ran the synthesis.)

[BakedPenguin]

Also, the Uncle Fester books. Not that I've ever read them or even know of their existence.

[Brett L]

Umm. Yeah. And this definitely wasn't how I learned that one thing that sucks about hte Kindle is that you can't "hide" book titles from a device without deleting the fucking thing from your entire Amazon library.

[fish]

(Which may or may not still be attached to my body depending on how well I ran the synthesis.)

Or lodged within....depending on how well you ran the synthesis.

[Suthenboy]

"Maybe they should just ban chemistry books at this point."

Coming soon.

[Ted S.]

Limiting how much cold medicine you can buy hasn't worked to do anything but inconvenience people. So now we're going to go further down that derp road.

Continuing to do something which we know from experience doesn't work is a terrible message to send the children.

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

Intentions, it's all about the intentions.

[pan fried wylie]

Continuing to do something which we know from experience doesn't work is insanity.

[Fist of Etiquette]

You want to paint yourself up as a whore, you can stay painted up as a whore!

[SugarFree]

I have heard of your paintings too, well enough; God
has given you one face, and you make yourselves
another: you jig, you amble, and you lisp, and
nick-name God's creatures, and make your wantonness
your ignorance. Go to, I'll no more on't; it hath
made me mad. I say, we will have no more marriages:
those that are married already, all but one, shall
live; the rest shall keep as they are. To a
nunnery, go.

[Fist of Etiquette]

That guy could be a dick about everything.

[SugarFree]

He needed Prozac:

Seems, madam! nay it is; I know not 'seems.'
'Tis not alone my inky cloak, good mother,
Nor customary suits of solemn black,
Nor windy suspiration of forced breath,
No, nor the fruitful river in the eye,
Nor the dejected 'havior of the visage,
Together with all forms, moods, shapes of grief,
That can denote me truly: these indeed seem,
For they are actions that a man might play:
But I have that within which passeth show;
These but the trappings and the suits of woe.

[Zeb]

Or you could go to the fucking hardware store and buy a gallon of pure acetone.

[Sy]

Exactly.

[Enough About Palin]

"and demands ID for what they will sell"

RACIST!!!1!!1!!!!!111

[Fist of Etiquette]

North Carolina Governor Patrick McCrory has signed a bill that introduces strict photo identification requirements for voters.Civil rights groups have filed lawsuits in response.

People can make it to the polls but not to get their picture taken?

[DJF]

But without the ID law they can send someone else to the Polls in their place

[invisible furry hand]

Does this mean I can no longer send my manservant to vote in my place?

[The DerpRider]

I really wish I could raffle my vote. I could use the money and no one I'd vote actually runs for office.

[John]

In the 19th Century people sold their votes all of the time. The European immigrants, who can come from monarchies and been told all of their lives to go fuck themselves, loved it that anyone would think them important enough to want to buy their vote.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

I am not sure I would be opposed to someone 'selling' their vote. It is their vote to give to whoever they wish and people give it away pretty foolishly at times for nothing. The secret ballot makes buying votes foolhardy anyways.

[Xenocles]

At least if candidates were to buy votes with their own money it would be an improvement.

[Zeb]

There have been primaries where candidates spent hundreds of dollars for every vote they got. I'd take the money and vote for them.

[Heedless]

"Walks around money" is still a thing in a bunch of east coast cities.

[Rasilio]

heh, that's why I like my plan for voting reform where you literally can buy extra votes.

Everyone gets 1 ballot for free
you want a 2nd ballot, that's $1,
you want a 3rd ballot, that's $10 more
You want a 4th ballot, that's $100 more
and so on

Then it is specifically legal for anyone to give you money to purchase ballots with but you must positively prove your identity at the balloting place and the ballot is strictly secret so they have no way of proving who you did or did not vote for (or even if you bought ballots with the money or just pocketed it)

Then all of the money will be split between the various levels of government to fund operations in some way.

[CE]

In my plan, voting is banned, except in private clubs.

[Ted S.]

Technically, isn't he only required to show up at the polling station and have his name checked off?

Mandatory voting is an abomination.

[invisible furry hand]

a very common misconception. It is an offence under the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1918 not to cast a valid vote. Of course, given we have the secret ballot (invented it, i believe) in practice, as long as you go into the booth and look like you're voting, and then put the papers in the right boxes, you're OK. But you are still compelled to turn up, go through the pretence, and cannot advocate that others deliberately spoil their ballot papers (that's an offence too)

[db]

Can you guys do write-in votes or are you strictly on the menu?

[invisible furry hand]

strictly on the menu.

For Reps you get a list of candidates and mark with numbers (1,2,3 etc).

For the Senate, you can vote above the line (which is the party ticket) or below the line (1 against some ALP candidate, 2 against a Liberal etc). There can be around 90-100 under the line, so only a lunatic does it. I have done it.

[Ted S.]

Then advocate voting for none of the above.

You folks don't have government financing of poliitcal parties yet, do you?

[invisible furry hand]

advocate voting for none of the above

That's an offence too.

And yes we have government funding of political parties, and then some

[Rhywun]

And yes we have government funding of political parties, and then some

It's a comforting thought to realize how very much more corrupt it can get here in the US.

[Fist of Etiquette]

I had my manservant surgically altered to resemble me. It was for decoy purposes, but I suppose it could come in handy Election Day.

[Ska]

A modern twist on Kagemusha?

[invisible furry hand]

Fisty and his manservant both look like Tetsuya Nakadai? Cool....

[Fist of Etiquette]

SO WE ALL LOOK ALIKE TO YOU HUH?

[Zeb]

Great. Now we are going to need DNA tests to verify voter ID.

Come on, if you can be bothered to go to the poll, it's not such a great hardship to submit a cheek swab when you register to vote, now is it?

[Pro Libertate]

Yes, this is clearly a political move to deny the rich the vote.

[Pro Libertate]

I mean, I'm a busy man. I don't have time to wait in line with hoi polloi.

[NeonCat]

Couldn't you give your liveried servants some whips, sjamboks, etc. and have them whip the hoi polloi out of the way for you? I mean, expecting the HP to lie down while you walk on them to prevent you from touching the ground is a bit much to ask in a constitutional republic, but surely they should be honored to get out of your way so you can vote in as expedient manner as is possible.

[NeonCat]

Couldn't you give your liveried servants some whips, sjamboks, etc. and have them whip the hoi polloi out of the way for you? I mean, expecting the HP to lie down while you walk on them to prevent you from touching the ground is a bit much to ask in a constitutional republic, but surely they should be honored to get out of your way so you can vote in as expedient manner as is possible.

[NeonCat]

The squirrels are drunk!

[Pro Libertate]

That's a thought.

[CE]

Don't they have first class voting if you donate the max to one of the approved candidates?

[BardMetal]

If voter ID laws are racist then can I sue the grocery store every time they ask for an ID when I purchase alcohol?

[DJF]

How about suing the government every time they ask you to present photo ID to enter a government building when you are engaged in the constitutional right to petition your government.

[Pro Libertate]

There's only one reason they fight ID requirements for voting and for nothing else: Voter fraud. It's the only possible explanation.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

That's ridiculous. Everyone realizes it is going to have differential impact on minorities and the poor. Now, that is not necessarily racist, but you can't see how that doesn't disturb some people?

Think of the libertarian stance on the insane growth of occupational licenses or regulatory hoops for new businesses to jump through to start up: that they have a differential impact on the less connected and less well off.

[Pro Libertate]

It doesn't have to be a state ID, but it's utterly absurd to not require people to identify themselves in voting. Voter fraud isn't some conspiracy theory, just like financial fraud isn't.

IDs make all the sense in the world, and it's bullshit that most people don't have (or can't get) one. This isn't Bangladesh.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

It doesn't have to be a state ID? Tell that to NC.

[sgs]

Why does his suggestion of what should pass as acceptable get turned into a discussion of what NC is doing?

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Because their law prompted this entire discussion?

[Sy]

" Everyone realizes it is going to have differential impact on minorities and the poor."

Those fucking white people. Having twenty bucks and shit. Putting up with the DMV's mail-order ID renewal bullshit. You creepy ass crackas standin' in line at the library n shit on yo lunch break.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

I am not blaming anyone who is better able to pay and navigate the bureaucracy, just recognizing that some people are better able to than others. Again, let's remember what you are defending here: paying twenty bucks and going through DMV's 'renewal bullsh*t.' That's not something libertarians usually can be seen doing.

[Sy]

Uh, no. Lets remember what YOU are defending: keeping our ballot system vulnerable to voter fraud based in large parts on racist assumptions in your arguments. First, minorities will probably find it a bit offensive at your insinuation that they can't comply with the law because, as you said, disparagement something something. I mean, you took the 20 bucks part and ran with it, ignoring the larger over all point being made which was that if onerous regulations should exist to participate in the democratic process, then they should be onerous to everybody. And I don't know where you live, but places that make state ID's will do them on the cheap and have instructions in at least three languages or so. But nice try.

[VG Zaytsev]

More bullshit.

Poor people have more experience dealing with government bureaucracies than the overwhelming majority of non poor people.

[sgs]

"just recognizing that some people are better able to than others."

Yes, in your mind minorities are somehow prevented from getting photo id, or it's harder for them, or something.

No, see what you are trying to do is tie the actual group it could impact, the poor, to minorities, which it will in no way differentially impact, in order to gin up racial sentiment.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

-Yes, in your mind minorities are somehow prevented from getting photo id, or it's harder for them, or something.

To the extent that minorities are more likely to be of less means, yes. And guess what!

They are.

[T]

Texas gives out an ID for free if you can't afford one to vote.

And this isn't a complex byzantine procedure. It's getting a fucking ID. Anybody who can't pull this off is too damn dumb to vote.

[trshmnstr]

I had a professor tell me one time that photo IDs were a sexist requirement because women are more likely to change their names when they get married, meaning that they have to track down both their birth certificate and their marriage license.

[mr simple]

And that's somehow the fault of the ids? The name wouldn't be changed on any registry that you'd have have to show id for until the woman actually changed her name on the id, so it's a moot point. It amazes me how someone can make it into a professorship without being able to think things through.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Texas requires other ID to get the ID in question, and the cost of the former can be significant for a poor person (white or black).

[trshmnstr]

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/D.....ements.htm

[Sy]

"Texas requires other ID to get the ID in question, and the cost of the former can be significant for a poor person (white or black)."

You shouldn't speak about what you clearly do not know

[mad libertarian guy]

I am not blaming anyone who is better able to pay and navigate the bureaucracy, just recognizing that some people are better able to than others.

If they are so poor they can't get out in order to get an ID, they're probably also too poor to get the proper forms to apply for *insert form of welfare here.*

[Bo Cara Esq.]

See, Zeb, it's all about the welfare.

Medicaid recipients should make up the bulk of the electorate instead.

[CampingInYourPark]

Medicaid recipients should make up the bulk of the electorate instead

Medicaid is a need based benefit, moron

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Replace it with Medicare then, friend.

[Rasilio]

"That's ridiculous. Everyone realizes it is going to have differential impact on minorities and the poor. Now, that is not necessarily racist, but you can't see how that doesn't disturb some people?"

No everyone does not see that. I have yet to see a single convincing argument against voter identification showing a differential impact on minorities or the poor. As long as the state offers a free ID that can be used for voting there is simply no legitimate argument against it as photo id is required for so many other things already.

Even the Homeless, sorry but they actually have an easier time going to the DMV or voting office or wherever to get the ID than a middle class voter with a job who really can't afford to spend 4 hours in line to get their damned drivers license renewed and yet still manage to do it.

[Sy]

THIS

[sgs]

"Everyone realizes it is going to have differential impact on minorities and the poor."

Nope.

[VG Zaytsev]

Everyone realizes it is going to have differential impact on minorities and the poor.

Both groups are morons afterall, right Bo.

[Sy]

He doesn't see how condescending his own argument is against THOSE people.. You know, the ones he pretends to care so much about.

[VG Zaytsev]

The smug paternalism of leftwing racists is infuriating.

[sgs]

I'm still wondering why he thinks minorities can't get ID.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Is it paternalist racism when libertarians note that minorities and poor people may, more often than whites and people of means, have more trouble with our criminal justice bureaucracy or occupational regulations?

[BelowTheRim]

No it's fucking statistics dumbass.

Sorry but you are having a bad week making rational arguments and not just on this particular thread.

See: Drug War

[VG Zaytsev]

Think of the libertarian stance on the insane growth of occupational licenses or regulatory hoops for new businesses to jump through to start up:

A state issued id is provided to everyone that shows up and asks for one. It is not, in any way comparable to occupational licenses or regulatory barriers.

[B.P.]

You have to be "connected" to get a state ID?

[Bo Cara Esq.]

It is not that minorities can't get IDs. It is that people with means, education and savvy navigating bureaucracy are better able to jump through any bureaucratic hoops. Minorities and poor people disproportionately lag in those areas compared to whites and people with means, but of course many whites are negatively impacted too and that is just as wrong to me.

[sgs]

"It is that people with means, education and savvy navigating bureaucracy are better able to jump through any bureaucratic hoops. "

You think minorities are stupid, got it.

[CE]

I'm against all forms of mandated government ID, for any purpose.

[Azathoth!!]

Dolt, If it has a "differential impact on minorities and the poor" when voting, why doesn't it have a "differential impact on minorities and the poor" when applying for benefits? applying for a job? buying alchohol? buying cough medicine? cashing a check? renting an apartment? paying ones taxes(or getting that 'refund')?

Why is it that, out of all the things that require identification, ONLY voting ID has a "differential impact on minorities and the poor"?

Can't you see how deliberate ignorance of this fact might disturb some people?

[db]

Why should I have to identify myself when I purchase a firearm?

[Bo Cara Esq.]

I do think people should have to identify themselves when voting, they always have. They usually have to match their name and information with a list on the registered voter roll.

This works well to combat any mas fraud. If you ginned up a scheme that had a lot of people going in to precints or wards voting in other people's name it is very likely someone in whose name they are voting is going to show up to cast their vote: when they see the name is already crossed off, then the fraud has been revealed. This happens exceedingly rarely, because it would be difficult to pull this off in a concealed way.

[Zeb]

Yeah. It seems like any large scale voter fraud would have to be done with the cooperation of the poll workers. And if they are crooked, then having them check IDs is not going to help.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Well said.

So on the one hand we have little chance to meaningfully combat large scale fraud, but we've now created more bureaucratic hoops for people to jump through.

I never though I'd live to see the day when libertarians would be advocating a larger role for the Motor Vehicle Departments.

[Pro Libertate]

All any libertarian here is saying is that a reasonable form of identification beyond "Why, yes, I am Joe Smith" can and should be required. If the state wants to insist on that being its ID, that may not be ideal in some respects, but it beats not requiring an ID because of some bullshit racism argument.

Frankly, I think it's extreme discrimination of the worst sort to act like blacks or any other class people are concerned about can't manage to get an ID of some sort. Really? Since IDs are necessary for so many things, it's not just unlikely that they can't handle it and don't handle it--it's impossible on any serious scale.

[mad libertarian guy]

I never though I'd live to see the day when libertarians would be advocating a larger role for the Motor Vehicle Departments.

Who said anything about the DMV? Most states offer an ID that isn't a drivers license.

[db]

For that matter, who said anything about a state issued ID? I would be satisfied with a privately operated ID system based on trust networks.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Perhaps you would be, but NC law is not.

[CampingInYourPark]

Yeah. It seems like any large scale voter fraud...

One man of straw pummeled.

[Pro Libertate]

How much fraud in raw votes does it take to swing an election? Especially considering how closely divided many districts are?

[The Last American Hero]

See State of Washington election, 2004 - less than 200 votes.

[Zeb]

Huh? I was replying to someone who was discussing how large scale voter fraud might work.

[trshmnstr]

How a campaign can achieve large scale voter fraud with little work involved.

Assign two campaign interns to monitor two different resources. Put one on obits and the other on house sales. Generate a list of all people who just died and a list of people who just moved, and distribute to your minions.

[Rasilio]

Incorrect.

Voter rolls are public record, in the days leading up to the election campaigns spend an inordinate amount of time on "get out the vote" efforts, in which they call people they had previously canvassed to encourage them to go vote. From this it is very easy to come up with a list of people who have told you they won't be voting for whatever reason. You could easily send campaign workers to polling locations for each of those

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Anyone who would try to pull a large scale vote fraud this way would be a fool-certainly some n% of people who tell a person on the phone they are not going to vote will actually show up, and when their names are already marked off voter fraud would be revealed.

[Pope Jimbo]

So what happens then? Suppose the ringer shows up first. When the actual voter shows up, the plot is revealed.

You now know that voter fraud has occurred. What do you do about it?

You have no idea who the ringer voted for. You can't take it out. Does the real voter get a vote or not?

And how would you know if the second voter was the ringer or the real voter? Remember you can't ask for any ID.

Here is a twist. Why not show up and vote in the morning. Then on the way home, go in and try to vote again. Of course the second time your name is crossed off. You can scream about voter fraud, then get your provisional ballot and vote a second time.

Now your vote counts twice as much.

[Rasilio]

Who said it had to be large scale.

Sure you would have a hard time swinging a Presidential Election or Senatorial election that way, but City Council, State Senate, even US Congressmen frequently win races decided by well less than 1000 votes

[CE]

A hard time? Just target a few close precincts in Florida, Ohio, Wisconsin and other swing states.

[thom]

I politely inform them that I'm over 30, and their policy, as stated by very visible signage, is that those under 30 must present ID.

[Drake]

Don't worry - the ACLU will fight this like hell, because this is the only threat to our liberties right now.

[Eduard van Haalen]

Try entering ACLU headquarters without an ID.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

I do not get the current fascination with voter ID laws among libertarians. For much of this history of the LP it has opposed government national ID schemes if I recall correctly.

It is also not far fetched to think it would have disparate racial impact. We've long recognized how government bureaucratic measures are harder for populations less well off and versed in bureaucracy to traverse and have differential impacts.

[Drake]

Why the fascination with voting?

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Something, something, consent of the governed.

[Auric Demonocles]

Who said anything about a national ID being used with voter ID?

[Bo Cara Esq.]

State drivers licenses and other forms of identification are now regulated under federal standards (see Real ID act).

[Auric Demonocles]

Which is a separate issue.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

It is not separate now, it is there. The forms of ID these states are requiring for voting are in large part regulated under the federal Real ID act (and others).

[Auric Demonocles]

The feds regulating the states' acceptable IDs and the states requiring IDs to do something are separate issues.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

If the feds regulate state acceptable ID and the state requires that ID to do something, then to do something that requires you to get the fed approved ID.

[sgs]

Unless the state decides otherwise, because of that one thing...

[Slammer]

Fraud hurts everyone. If someone commits fraud to vote, it cancels MY legitimate vote. I have an interest here.

I also take exception to your phrase "We've long recognized".

[Bo Cara Esq.]

You do not think government actions have differential effect on minorities and the poor?

Half of this thread is about that (regarding NYC's stop and frisk or drug policy).

[Rasilio]

Government actions *can* have differential effect on minorities, I have yet to see any compelling evidence that simply requiring a photo id to vote would do so.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

It is also not far fetched to think it would have disparate racial impact.

So?

[Bo Cara Esq.]

There's a pretty sordid history of ostensibly neutral voting measures having actual disparate racial impacts in this country. Do we suddenly have faith in government officials to carry these out fairly now?

[Night Elf Mohawk]

I don't accept the premise that actual disparate racial impacts are inherently problematic. Do you think the selection process of the US Olympic basketball team has an actual disparate racial impact?

I think there's a compelling state interest in trying to ensure that voters are who they say they are and that potential voters are eligible to vote. If that has a disparate impact, that's much more likely to be because of failures on the part of the people impacted than because of an illegitimate requirement.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Those people should just learn to navigate government imposed bureaucratic obstacles more?

[CampingInYourPark]

Those people

[Night Elf Mohawk]

Because getting an ID is opaque and byzantine? Is that really the hill on which they want to die?

How many people don't already have an ID to drive, or have a bank account, or get welfare, or whatever? Of those who don't, how many don't do it because they can't understand the process?

[CampingInYourPark]

How many people don't already have an ID to drive, or have a bank account, or get welfare, or whatever?

Laws requiring an ID to drive, to have a bank account, or to get welfare obviously have a "differential" impact on minorities, therefore...RACIST.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Let me rephrase your comment in another context:

Because getting an occupational license to braid hair is opaque and byzantine?

-How many people don't already have an ID to drive, or have a bank account, or get welfare, or whatever?

In the voter ID cases I have read at the circuit court level it is often stipulated by both parties to be in the tens of thousands, conservatively.

And it's not about being able to understand the process at all, it is that every extra process peels people off, just like every government imposed bureaucratic barrier in every area.

[Lady Bertrum]

What bullshit. Because braiding hair is the same as voting. Uggh.

[Rasilio]

"Because getting an occupational license to braid hair is opaque and byzantine?"

Actually yes they were as the occupational license required you to study a completely separate unrelated field (cosmetology) at a significant cost and then pass a test designed to be difficult to pass so as to limit the number of new cosmetologists.

To get a government issued ID, go to government office, provide 2 or 3 pieces of identifying documentation, get picture taken.

Worst case scenario it takes you 5 or 6 hours over the course of a couple of days

[Night Elf Mohawk]

Let me rephrase distort your comment in another context:

Because getting an occupational license to braid hair is opaque and byzantine?

I'm not an anarchist. One of the responsibilities of government, in my view, is holding fair elections. Making sure that voters are who they say they are is a legitimate step toward accomplishing that responsibility. Photo ID is a legitimate means of doing this.

It is not the government's responsibility to determine who can legally braid my hair, or decorate my house, or sell me a coffin, or sell me raw milk, etc., etc., ad nauseum. Therefore, it doesn't matter to me whether the licensing for said professions is opaque and byzantine or whether a server process automatically sends a license in response to an email or text. The licenses themselves are an illegitimate exercise of government power in a way that photo IDs for voters are not.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

I guess one point of difference we start from is I don't care much for the idea of government screening us to see if we qualify in order for us to give our God given right of consent or withholding of consent. If some level of it is necessary for a fair election I can see that, but it should be one that is the least burdensome way on the citizen to address that concern.

I am not equating the appropriateness of the licensing requirement with voter ID requirements in terms of the proper roles of government, I am simply using the well known, and much touted by libertarians, effects of the former as an example of what the effects of the latter can be expected to be. Maybe what we gain in terms of making elections less prone to fraud are worth the costs, but there will be costs.

[robc]

The "least burdensome way" is to have small enough precincts that the poll workers all recognize all the voters on site.

That isnt reasonable, today, assuming it ever was. The 2nd "least burdensome way" is to require a form of ID.

It sucks that IDs are ubiquitous, but since they are, lets go with it.

[B.P.]

One of the Dakotas doesn't have ID laws, supposedly for this very reason.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

Maybe what we gain in terms of making elections less prone to fraud are worth the costs, but there will be costs.

There are costs in making people show up or mail their votes. There are costs in registration. There are always costs.

Getting a frickin' free ID to show who you are and reduce the chances you can vote where you shouldn't or disenfranchise someone else is a pretty low cost, even if it impacts idiots more than others.

[VG Zaytsev]

Because getting an occupational license to braid hair is opaque and byzantine?

More Bo Shit.

Occupational licenses are not given out to everyone that shows up and requests one.

Therefor there is no equivalence to voter ids.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Again, do you think it is a good thing that occupational licenses are not given up to everyone who shows up and requests them? I don't.

[robc]

Again, do you think it is a good thing that occupational licenses are not given up to everyone who shows up and requests them? I don't.

Im the exact opposite, I dont think occupational licenses should be given to anyone.

You want to make things worse by giving out more occupational licenses.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

I want there to be NO license requirements for occupations. Not a fan of government making me jump through hoops.

[robc]

I want there to be NO license requirements for occupations.

That isnt what you said. You said you wanted them to issue the license to everyone who requested one.

Im the one in favor of no licensing. You might be, but not until 11:57.

[Sy]

Those people should just learn to navigate government imposed bureaucratic obstacles more?

Winner Winner chicken dinner. Your argument essentially boils down to white people are more likely to waste their fucking Friday off at the DMV, pay library fines, and do shit like keep their vehicle registration up to date. That's not a compelling argument to keep lax standards.

[Sy]

*standards lax
**whatever.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

-more likely to waste their fucking Friday off at the DMV, pay library fines, and do shit like keep their vehicle registration up to date. That's not a compelling argument to keep lax standards.

It is amazing to see libertarians defend bureaucratic hoops in this way.

Look, I understand completely why Republicans want voter ID. They think it will help them win elections because they know, as everyone does, that it will impact many populations that vote the other way. And Democrats, unscrupulous as always, oppose it for similar reasons.

The question is, why would a libertarian start defending requirements to stand in line at the Motor Vehicle Department and paying fees to get government issued ID? If your libertarianism is simply about defeating Democrats at the polls, that is rather odd.

[Auric Demonocles]

paying fees to get government issued ID?

Now you've got from wrong to straight up lying.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

How so?

[robc]

Voting is a government act. There is no fundamental right to vote, as in nature there is no voting. As such, requiring an ID doesnt seem to be some insane burden.

If the GOVERNMENT is going to have voting, the GOVERNMENT should make sure it is done right, and if that requires a GOVERNMENT ID, then so be it.

Voting is one of those things that shouldnt be privatized. Im a minarchist, and if said minarchy is going to have elections, its going to have to apply rules to it.

[robc]

Gedankenexperiment time:

Lets assume a minarchist libertopia that has voting for the tiny number of officials. And lets assume that the franchise isnt universal, but only goes to landowners.

Bo, you going to have a problem with the polls requiring proof of land ownership?

I wouldnt. Of course, some libertarians have a problem with government issuing deeds, but I dont. My ideal minarchy extends that far.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

The Declaration of Independence disagrees with you.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

-We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,

[robc]

Once again: ???

[robc]

The Declaration of Independence disagrees with you.

???

It specifically declares that government is created to secure rights, not that universal suffrage is a right.

For one thing, it wouldnt exist until after said declaration, and it doesnt even declare a monarchy to be an invalid form, acknowledging that you shouldnt change for light and transient causes.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

It says governments are instituted among men and derive their just powers from the consent of the governed, and it is the Right of the people to alter the government.

Other than rebellion, that is talking about voting. Notice Right is capitalized here just as it is when inalienable Rights are mentioned.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

It is also a natural right: in a state of nature no one can tell me what do lest I consent.

[robc]

It is also a natural right: in a state of nature no one can tell me what do lest I consent.

Which would require unanimous votes.

[robc]

Voting was never considered by Jefferson or any of the other FFs to be a natural right.

Ignoring even the whole slave issue and women issue, property ownership was a very common requirement for voting.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

It was considered a right for those people whose consent 'counted.' Taxation without representation was why the entire Revolution occurred.

[T]

Show me, specifically, where voting is mentioned in the Declaration.

I'll wait. For a long damn time, too.

[robc]

Show me, specifically, where voting is mentioned in the Declaration.

"He has refused for a long Time, after such Dissolutions, to cause others to be elected..."

Thats the best I can come up with.

[Sy]

No. I'm making fun of your inability to understand your own racist drivel. You're like Tulpa had buttsex with Tony, and out popped you from Tony's shit locker. In my libertarian world, citizens will still have to prove who they are when it comes time to vote.
Simply "checking your name off a list" in the digital age sounds a little sketchy for my taste. But that's what you want, not me. Anyways, to answer your concern trolling, I don't give a shit if procuring a new ID for the sake of voting for the first time ever costs a little of your time. It SHOULD. Now

[Bo Cara Esq.]

-I don't give a shit if procuring a new ID for the sake of voting for the first time ever costs a little of your time.

It is like a celebration of bureaucratic hoops in here today.

[Sy]

What's funny is your original complaint isn't that it's burdensome. It's the bureaucratic hoops are too burdensome for those other people.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

No, it was an observation that hoops are more burdensome for some people than for others.

[Sy]

Yes. That's what I said. Thanks or agreeing.

[VG Zaytsev]

The question is, why would a libertarian start defending requirements to stand in line at the Motor Vehicle Department and paying fees to get government issued ID

The issue is one of voter fraud - something that libertarians should care deeply about, as voting is an act of violence.

The problem may or may not be real, but the remedy is so minor and the opposition so vociferous that it has made me think that fraud is much wider and more central to the socialists success than I had previously thought.

All of the arguments against doing so are easily defeated bullshit strawmen. And the proposal routinely gets 70%+ support in public opinion polls of the poor and minorities.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Is voting for Rand Paul an 'act of violence?'

Voting itself is not an act of violence, voting for certain things can be.

[Rasilio]

It is worse than that, because the overlap between those who don't spend friday at the DMV and those who do spend friday at the welfare office is huge.

The set of people who are not in one of those two groups and who would actually take the time to go register and cast a vote is a tiny fraction of the electorate.

[VG Zaytsev]

Those people should just learn to navigate government imposed bureaucratic obstacles more?

Surprisingly enough those people are competent enough to navigate the imposed bureaucratic obstacles to received various types of welfare, all of which have different imposed bureaucratic obstacles. And they were competent enough to navigate the imposed bureaucratic obstacle of registering to vote.

But showing up at some office to get a free picture id is just a bridge to far for the morons.

[Lady Bertrum]

But why wouldn't a progressive have faith in government official to carry out voter identification fairly? They believe government is competent to administer and regulate the minutia of every other aspects of our lives. Why not voter id?

[Bo Cara Esq.]

You would have to ask one.

Not being one I have absolutely no faith for them to carry this out fairly, efficiently, or even usefully.

[GroundTruth]

I have never understood how a country that takes as is starting points postulates of liberty and individual dignity can descend to the point that we assume the worst about voters. If the People can not be trusted to only vote if and where they are eligible to vote, how can they be trusted to vote in the best interest of the Republic, as opposed to their own personal good? What has happened to the presumption of innocence?

[robc]

Trust but verify.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Well said.

[robc]

Well said.

You are both wrong.

[VG Zaytsev]

If the People can not be trusted to only vote if and where they are eligible to vote, how can they be trusted to vote in the best interest of the Republic, as opposed to their own personal good?

You're fucking kidding right?

The short answer is that the public can't be trusted to vote in the best interest of the Republic.

Just look at what's happened in the last 100 years.

[robc]

The short answer is that the public can't be trusted to vote in the best interest of the Republic.

This is the exact reason that
1) We have a republic
2) We have an electoral college

The FFs explicitly distrusted the public.

They were fucking open and honest about this very fact.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

They can vote however or on whatever basis they want to. That's not the question.

[mad libertarian guy]

It is also not far fetched to think it would have disparate racial impact.

Is there some kind of natural force in place that makes it more difficult for minorities to get places and do things? Because if not, this argument is nothing but bullshit.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Is there some kind of natural force in place that makes it more difficult for minorities to navigate our criminal justice system?

[Auric Demonocles]

A women I work with insisted on talking politics during lunch a month or so ago when the SC had that ruling related to this. She kept saying how it was just Republicans trying to stop poor people from voting because they think it will help them in elections, and even went to the lengths to refuse to show the ID she has when she tried to vote the last time, which required her to file a provisional ballot and sign an affidavit instead. I asked her if she thought that background checks for guns were good, and she said yes. Then I asked why she wanted to keep poor people from getting guns, and she couldn't see the parallel. She also was wrong about the law providing free IDs to anyone who can't afford it (and I don't even live in the same state she does).

Another coworker is a nationalized Canadian. He couldn't even understand what the big deal about having to show your ID is.

[Pro Libertate]

The leadership wants to block IDs to allow for fraud; the followers just buy the "It's racist!" argument without analysis. People ask for IDs for a whole lot of stuff, and no one objects. Why? Because votes mean money and power for the Democratic leaders, none of that other stuff does.

I believe you have to show ID for jury duty, too, which is actually a more important civil right, as your vote matters a whole lot in that situation. Is that racist?

[Bo Cara Esq.]

-the followers just buy the "It's racist!" argument without analysis.

I think even the governments pushing for the voter ID laws often admit in court that it will have differential racist effects. That is not necessarily racist in intent of course (or even in practice), but then again technically neither are drug law enforcement which libertarians freely acknowledge have devastating differential impact on minorities.

[John]

I think even the governments pushing for the voter ID laws often admit in court that it will have differential racist effects

I don't think so. That is ridiculous. You can't rent a place to live without an ID. I would love to see a single example of anyone who is supporting ID laws claiming such a thing was true.

[Auric Demonocles]

John, if you just assume black people are lazy then you can assume that they won't bother to get an ID, so they won't be able to vote. Therefore requiring a (free!) ID to vote is racist.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

It is not about assuming anyone is lazy, it is about assuming that bureaucratic hoops always present barriers to people and that they often impact people with less means and experience with them more.

Why do you think regulations hurt small businesses more than big ones (a long held position by many libertarians)? I mean, it is the same requirements. Is it that the businesses are too lazy to jump through the hoops?

[Lady Bertrum]

You're arguing what's convenient for your ideology and then implicitly accuse others of doing the same.

You want fewer barriers when it benefits your preferred outcome. You want more barriers when it adversely affects the other guy.

[Lady Bertrum]

As a libertarian, I don't find voter id laws at all inconsistent with my worldview. A primary responsibility of government should be securing the legitimacy of the democratic process.

[Rasilio]

This.

Establishing your identity in a democratic system is the only safeguard against certain types of fraud.

And I don't want to hear it never happens because there have been so few convictions for it, making this argument is like trying to argue that Barry Bonds never took Steroids because he never failed a drug test. He never failed one, because he never took them, MLB did not know the scale of the problem until they began conducting drug tests. Requiring photo id is in effect testing the vote for a specific type of fraud.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

-Establishing your identity in a democratic system is the only safeguard against certain types of fraud.

So, a 'let me see your papers' strain of libertarianism?

[Rasilio]

You really don't know history do you.

"Let me see your papers" was because those papers identified not just who you were but what you did for a living, where you were allowed to be, how long you were allowed to be and could be demanded at any time by any officer of the law, who could then arrest you for anything that seemed out of place based on that information. Oh yes, and if you didn't have them on you that was in and of itself a crime that you would be arrested for.

It is **NOTHING AT ALL** like having to show a photo id at a polling place before voting but are not required to carry at any other time and do not define your limits to travel (because there aren't any), your economic status, and can only be reviewed by the police on suspicion of commiting an actual crime (stop and frisk aside that is).

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Can you name an area I would want more barriers? Because I can't.

I'd like to do away with government required occupational licenses. Heck, I wouldn't mind getting rid of driver's licenses.

[Auric Demonocles]

Because big businesses have more money to implement the solutions. If the required IDs weren't being offered for free, you would have a point.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Many of the ID forms listed are certainly not free, and even in state's where they have a free ID you need not-free ones to get them!

[Rasilio]

Like a Social Security card you mean? How about a library card? Birth Certificate (ok some places charge for copies of these but they shouldn't)? A piece of mail from a state agency?

The only people who might have a problem coming up with these are homeless people.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

-ok some places charge for copies of these but they shouldn't

If only things were different than they actually are, then everything would be OK.

[Lady Bertrum]

"Why do you think regulations hurt small businesses more than big ones (a long held position by many libertarians)? I mean, it is the same requirements. Is it that the businesses are too lazy to jump through the hoops?"

This is nonsense. Most libertarians don't necessarily object to regulation on disparate impact grounds. They object because crony capitalism allows big business to have a much larger voice in how the regulations are structured (usually in their favor).

[Invisible Finger]

It's patently ridiculous to think that voter registration is an acceptable regulation but voter ID is a burden.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Since one adds another layer of bureaucracy to jump through I think not.

[Azathoth!!]

Since you can register and get an ID in the same place--often at the same desk, I don't see any new layers.

[VG Zaytsev]

It is not about assuming anyone is lazy, it is about assuming that bureaucratic hoops always present barriers to people and that they often impact people with less means and experience with them more.

Why do you think regulations hurt small businesses more than big ones (a long held position by many libertarians)?

You keep repeating this falsehood so I'm forced to assume that you are either an idiot or a liar.

Regulations are not waived for anyone that shows up, as id's are given out. So their is no equivalence to your analogy. It's a flatly deceptive attempt to persuade libertarians at an emotional level.

A typical leftwing ploy.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

It is usually conceded that there is a larger number of minorities that don't have the requisite ID but are otherwise eligible to vote in these court battles. See the DC Circuit's opinion on the upcoming Texas voter ID law that was decided prior to Shelby County.

[John]

It is usually conceded that there is a larger number of minorities that don't have the requisite ID but are otherwise eligible to vote in these court battles.

And no one ever comes up with any examples of these people in any numbers. They are just a figment of their imagination.

Such people don't exist. Liberals just make up their existence because they want to be able to engage in fraud. Anyone who thinks poor people don't have ID's is either lying, an idiot, or has never been around any actual poor people.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

I have worked with poor people and many do not have IDs. They don't have bank accounts, they don't get carded to buy alcohol, and they either have a long running lease or live with another person who has the lease.

Again, do not take my word for it, look at the case I mention. The government conceded there were thousands of people in the state who were eligible but who lacked ID.

[John]

I have worked with poor people and many do not have IDs.

Then they are not getting government benefits such as food stamps and welfare. That seems shall we say unlikely to say the least.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

They may have gotten on the dole rolls when they had sufficient ID, then lost it.

[Enough About Palin]

"I have worked with poor people and many do not have IDs. They don't have bank accounts, they don't get carded to buy alcohol, and they either have a long running lease or live with another person who has the lease."

I live in the ghetto and have spent nearly a lifetime working with the poor. This is total bullshit. In fact, the poor and minorities have no difficulty voting because progressives round them up, put them in vans, tell them who to vote for, take them to vote and then buy them pizza. THIS is what really goes on. I have seen it countless times. BTW no one likes a broken record.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

-BTW no one likes a broken record.

Yes, it is a good thing no one has made this point before in the discussion:

-In fact, the poor and minorities have no difficulty voting because progressives round them up

[UnCivilServant]

Process to get an ID in New York - I showed up at the DMV office, filled out a form, stood in line, had my picture taken. It was a Non-Driver's ID, so the fee was minimal. I got it because I wanted to open a bank account (I was in high school). Where is the "Bureaucratic barrier?" If it's transport, how are they getting to the polling places?

[Bo Cara Esq.]

What was your minimal fee? What were the opportunity costs of standing in line at the DMV? How about privacy costs? Transportation costs (it does not good to ask, well, how do they get to the polls-their polls may be much closer than the local Motor Vehicle Department and why defend the government making that second trip anyway?)

[Sy]

"What was your minimal fee?"

about 3 gallons of gas And even then, that's usually a one-time cost. Renewals are much cheaper.

"What were the opportunity costs of standing in line at the DMV? being able to legally vote?"
Homeless: none.
Creepy crackers: a lunch break/day off. who gives a shit.
Minorities: See 'creepy crackers'.

"How about privacy costs? "
You're not entitled to privacy in public. Unless you're suggesting individuals be able to produce verifiable ID's in the comfort of their own home.

"Transportation costs"
The same as a trip to the grocery store. Less, if it's on the way.

[B.P.]

Unless someone hand delivers a ballot to the voter's couch, provides a pen, puts the voted ballot in a privacy sleeve, delivers it to the ballot box, then... racist.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Talk about strawmen...

[Lady Bertrum]

I volunteer at a homeless shelter in NJ. The staff there assist residents in obtaining id and paperwork (ss#, copies of birth certificates) so that they are employable or can qualify for "services". The barriers are minimal.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

So minimal that you and the staff have to help them through them.

[Enough About Palin]

Hey broken record, if they are being helped (for free no less) then yes, minimal.

[Lady Bertrum]

Most of them are so fucking drug addled that they can't speak coherently. The staff basically fills out the paperwork for them and they put their XX on it. So, yeah, it's minimal.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Not minimal for them, obviously.

Having lost my birth certificate recently I can tell you that replacing it can be quite the bureaucratic hurdle. Ended up costing about fifty dollars and two long trips waiting in lines and arguing with government officials.

And in most places you need that to get a government photo voter ID.

[PRX]

you'd have a tiny point new tulpa if all those people didn't actually have ID, but they do.

[Pro Libertate]

Material effects? Bullshit. What has an effect is voter apathy, which is often stronger with poorer voters. Which is why voters get bussed in, etc.

[mad libertarian guy]

I think even the governments pushing for the voter ID laws often admit in court that it will have differential racist effects.

Then you should have no problem showing the evidence rather than simply stating it outright without confirmation.

[Zeb]

I object. I hate getting carded for alcohol (why the hell should some bar tender get to know my address and DOB?), I hate getting asked for ID to enter a building (if you are worried about security, run me through a metal detector, how does knowing my name help?).

Obviously, you do need to identify yourself to vote. And poll workers should be required to be confident that the person voting is who they claim to be. But I don't think an absolute requirement for photo ID is necessary.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

-I hate getting carded for alcohol (why the hell should some bar tender get to know my address and DOB?), I hate getting asked for ID to enter a building (if you are worried about security, run me through a metal detector, how does knowing my name help?).

This used to be the fairly standard libertarian attitude, until libertarianism's main principle seemed to become defeating Democrats at the polls.

We do not even know that Democrats will continue to win poorer votes at the polls. Things change.

[Pro Libertate]

What? You know, stop the concern trolling. Libertarians aren't giving up anything. Requiring identification at the polls makes sense. We have similar requirements for almost everything where fraud is a concern, from financial services, jury pools, whatever.

If the states are going to insist on their IDs, that's a different issue from whether any ID should be required.

[mr simple]

Are all of you arguing with him not aware of Bo Cara's schtick? Then be prepared for some circular reasoning, selective reading and poor semantics arguments. Have fun!

[Bo Cara Esq.]

This appears to be the required list.

Which one of these doesn't issue from the State?

a driver's license, passport, veteran's ID, tribal card

[T]

I guess he missed that whole bit in libertarianism about 'force or fraud'.

[GroundTruth]

This isn't Canada! I love our neighbors to the north, but we are different countries and they have to remember that. We also have the right to keep and bear arms, as a fundamental right, required to back up the right to speak our minds and freely associate.

[mad libertarian guy]

We also have the right to keep and bear arms, as a fundamental right, required to back up the right to speak our minds and freely associate.

So do Canadians. It's just that their government chooses not to recognize those rights, and the people there don't give a fuck.

[Don Mynack]

Do we really want people voting who can't figure out how to get a photo ID? Are these people able to function on a day-to-day basis?

[Zeb]

I don't know and don't care too much. The people who can function well enough to bother to vote now keep electing the wrong people. Maybe the total losers would do better. Can't get much worse.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

I am afraid that for many people here the ultimate objection is 'we can't have those poor welfare users voting to take our money!' In fact, several comments here are fairly explicitly to that effect.

I don't want people on welfare voting for welfare either, but I am not more happy with the retired Medicare and SS recipient who has all day to go to the Motor Vehicle Department and jump hoops doing the same.

[Enough About Palin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM7OS19Bt3s

[The Last American Hero]

Except not one commenter as of 12:03 has made a point like that.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

The concern with many seems to be that the poor will be 'rounded up' by 'the Progressives' and taken to vote, and the ones that can't jump the hoops are in the welfare lines.

Read the comments. What we have to do is require more bureaucracy because poor people and minorities that won't jump through the hoops are all on welfare and voting for progressives. Or something.

[Zeb]

I'm not going to guess at anyone's intentions. I'm sure that people do exist who want these laws so that fewer poor people will vote. I'm willing to believe that most on here are just concerned about fraud, though. My objections to voter ID laws have nothing to do with disparate impact on minorities or poor people. I'm just sick of the even increasing demands for ID to do everything and the idea that government issued documents are required to establish your identity.

[pan fried wylie]

People can make it to the polls but not to get their picture taken?

Even better point: the state can require a picture ID to purchase booze, but the same standard is too restrictive for voting?

[Zeb]

It's too restrictive for buying booze.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Again, it is hard to me imagine a libertarian defending these laws by bringing up alcohol restrictions!

[Sy]

Yeah your No True Scotsman tirade is getting fucking tiresome, concern troll. Find me one verifiable case of a minority/poor person financially or mentally unable to withstand the rigors of getting an ID for the first time, and I'll show you someone that isn't eligible to vote in the first place.

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Of course people can possibly overcome them, but that seems like a strange way for a libertarian to defend these kind of things.

Everyone can possibly get a restrictive handgun license too, but that doesn't justify them. And if we have such permits you can bet that some people will have more trouble than others. It won't be because of their skin color or intelligence, but because of lack of means, education and experience dealing with bureaucratic hoops.

[Enough About Palin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM7OS19Bt3s

[MP]

countless lives

Yes. Because you have no idea how many. Fucktard.

Correct answer is probably -10, considering lives destroyed.

[Lord Humungus]

possibly NSFW:

Sears? Sears?

"legant moments leather adjustable harness

[Slammer]

"Costumes"

[BakedPenguin]

Wow. Too bad they apparently stopped selling them.

[Bam!]

I didn't know Sears still existed.

[The DerpRider]

I'd like a vacuum cleaner and a ball gag. Where are the clearance whips?

[CE]

Do they have a sales lady who can show me how this works?

[Fist of Etiquette]

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg has said that "countless lives" have been saved by the NYPD's Stop and Frisk program...

Why won't this a-hole just run out the clock quietly? I would welcome any one of the other clowns vying to replace him if I was a New Yorker.

[MP]

if I was a New Yorker

But you're not. Because you're not a statist.

There's a reason why he was re-elected. The whole tri-state area worships at the alter of regulation. I'm so glad I don't live there anymore.

[Andrew S.]

"Countless" in this way meaning "we can't count them, but it's totally real. Really!"

These are the arguments made to me yesterday by somebody passionately defending stop and frisk

Be careful what you ask for; crime will shoot up and it will be young men of color who get killed because of it

I responded as a snarky libertarian would

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem,

He "fired" back

Andrew; if you think that stop and frisk means we are slaves then you are far away from having a meaningful conversation. It has been proven to reduce crime in minority neighborhoods.

And the people stop and frisk is protecting are minorities in poor neighborhoods. I don't want to see reverend so and so marching in Harlem when the next 11 year old gets shot sitting on the stoop when they want this policy taken away.

Statistics show crime has decreased significantly mostly due to Nypd practices. They are racially profiling cause they are the groups committing the crimes.

This person, of course, calls himself a progressive. Which again begs the question of progressive racism.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

It has been proven to reduce crime in minority neighborhoods.

I'd imagine that chaining people inside their homes would reduce crime in minority neighborhoods, too. Is that really the only consideration?

[invisible furry hand]

I'd imagine that chaining people inside their homes would reduce crime in minority neighborhoods

That's why Warty says he does it

[mad libertarian guy]

That's why Warty says he does it

Sort of. That is what Warty used to say about chaining people inside [his] home. Now the constabulary is so scared of him that he doesn't even bother with the pretense anymore.

[Ted S.]

Pretty much the same argument I made back when Obama had his gun-control meltdown back in April.

"If putting children in concentration camps where only responsible adults can have interactions with them can save the life of even one child, don't we have an obligation to try?"

[robc]

Utilitarian arguments as a counter to a slavery argument?

He missed the whole point of that quote, didnt he?

[mad libertarian guy]

Utilitarian arguments as a counter to a slavery argument?

One should reply that slaves are proven to bring down labor costs, and that's the whole point of having slaves, isn't it?

Philosophy aside, anyone claiming that these policies have save lives has on them the burden of showing just how many, and exactly how it was a stop and frisk that saved a life rather than say a guy wishing to not carry his gun during HEAT WAVE 2013!!!!

[Fatty Bolger]

They are racially profiling cause they are the groups committing the crimes.

I wonder how prevalent this attitude is? The NYPD says they are not racially profiling, but maybe the famously progressive NYC residents disagree ? and support it.

[Don Mynack]

It has contributed to reduced crime in minority and poor neighborhoods, no doubt. Many of the residents of those places actively support it, and other "progressive policing" methods, since the wisened elders of the city don't let the people protect themselves.

[Lord Humungus]

Man Hides Loaded Gun in Buttocks, Then Helps Police Find It, They Say

"I'm gonna be real with you, I have a gun in my a--," Marco Alvarado, 20, told police after he was pulled over early Thursday, according to court records.

Alvarado, who has "Kreepy" tattooed on his shoulder, wasn't lying, police said.

They found a loaded .22-caliber gun exactly where he claimed. Alvarado admitted he had just fired it three times into the air, according to a police report.

[All-Seeing Monocle]

An inelegant weapon, for an uncivilized age.

[The DerpRider]

Shitting...clips.

[Lord Humungus]

Some rusting tanks:

These Abandoned Tanks Are Rusting Mementoes of the Wars of the Past

[BardMetal]

I wonder how much one would cost? I've always wanted my own tank.

[DontShootMe]

Someday, those will be mined for metal.

[BakedPenguin]

Yeah, my first thought was that that represented a massive amount of scrap. I suspect that it's only the thought of live ordnance that keeps people from harvesting it.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Obama has directed Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, who has been accused of lying to Congress, to head up a review of government surveillance programs.

Joe Isuzu was unavailable.

[Andrew S.]

So Clapper gets to investigate himself. Seems about par for the course.

[WTF]

He will do it in the least untruthful way possible.

[CE]

Has Eric Holder finished that report on Fast and Furious yet?

[All-Seeing Monocle]

Defining moments in true leadership.

[CatoTheElder]

At this point, what difference does it make?

Seriously. Nobody in his right mind is going to believe any reassurance that the US intelligence services respect individual rights if they've been paying any attention at all. Coupled with the fact that the majority of Americans actually like living in a secret police state because it makes them feel secure, this is just another wasteful government program.

[The Last American Hero]

The shithead in the White House is a big fan of blue ribbon commissions of top men. If he were concerned about appearances, he could have at least gone through the trouble of appointing some decently respected retired congress critters, and include a Team Red guy to the panel to keep up the pretenses. This appointment is just a big FY to the country.

[some guy]

This shows just how much respect Obama has for the American people. Clapper lied to Congress about this when he could have simply said "I can't answer that question in this forum." The man has no credibility on this issue and there's a huge conflict of interest here. Yet he's the guy Obama picks.

[Eduard van Haalen]

lol, that bought and paid for Clapper is the very definition of a bald-faced liar, lol!

[your ad here]

[CE]

Jon Lovitz said he was in Hawaii, no Maui, yeah, that's the ticket...

[mr simple]

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg has said that "countless lives" have been saved by the NYPD's Stop and Frisk program,

i'm not sure 0 is accurately described as countless.

[Drake]

I wonder what Clapper will find in his review of government surveillance programs? I bet he'll be real critical of any 4th Amendment violations.

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

They're all honest mistakes.

[invisible furry hand]

Dear Prudie...

My husband is a 42-year-old software engineer and we live in the heart of the Midwest, and he has just gotten gold-colored braces decorated with rhinestones

[SugarFree]

Damn it feels good to be a gangster.

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

Just keep the Louisville Slugger away from him and everything will be ok.

[invisible furry hand]

heh, I watched that again on the weekend and am about to lend it to one of the kiddies at work so she can discover its genius (along with Eating Raoul)

[Brett L]

The kids don't get it now. Having the internet at work has made cubicle living bearable.

[Ska]

How true... I've had junior associates tell me Office Space flat out sucks.

[John]

If I were her, I would hide any fax machines in the house.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Midlife crisis: averted.

[Brett L]

He can't be much of a "software engineer" if he can't afford real diamonds for his grill-bling.

[All-Seeing Monocle]

Most software engineers I know are cheap bastards when it comes to anything that isn't technology/gadgets.

[Brett L]

My fiancee agrees.

[Kaptious Kristen]

Is his name Herbert Kornfeld?

[invisible furry hand]

He isn't hardcore enough for Accounts Receivable. Probably the sort of bitch who thinks Accounts Payable is something to aspire to

[BiMonSciFiCon]

RIP.

[Lord Humungus]

Did The White House Overstate the Al Qaeda Threat?

The national security community met the Daily Beast story with skepticism. One reason for the skepticism?the story assumed that al-Zawahiri would speak by phone, despite widespread reports that the NSA was listening to international calls.

It also assumed that all al Qaeda leaders spoke a common language. This is difficult to believe, given that most al Qaeda commanders are poorly educated. The report prompted Mohammed Albasha, Yemen's spokesman in Washington, to Tweet, "I doubt #alQaeda can coordinate a 20+ conference call with operatives from multiple nations, what language did they all speak?"

[Brett L]

Wait, wait, the White House lied for political reasons?! When did they start doing that?

[DontShootMe]

1792

[robc]

You think GW's first term was that clean?

[DontShootMe]

He said "the White House", they didn't start building it until 1792. George probably did his lying from a tent someplace...

[Ted S.]

The White House wasn't around until the first Adams administration. :-p

[Clich? Bandit]

White House 1812 - "There is no fire"

[UnCivilServant]

"The British were repulsed from the DC area, we are killing them in droves, driving them back to the seas"

[John]

And Al Quada is going to have an open line conference call and discuss all of their plans just a few months after it was revealed that the NSA listens to everything?

Isn't it more likely that Al Quada saw the NSA story and conducted the call as a way to troll Obama into panicking?

[DontShootMe]

I envision caves full of bearded men, laughing hysterically.

[The DerpRider]

I wonder if they have the annoying beep in and beep out when someones joines and leaves the teleconference.

[Pro Libertate]

It's going to be discovered some years from now that al Qaeda stopped being a terrorist group and started being a prank club sometime around 2010.

[db]

The al-jerqii Boys.

[Rasilio]

Just wait till they discover the joys of Swatting politicians

[CatoTheElder]

Poor Mohammed Albasha.

Consider: How would you be feeling right now if you were a Yemeni who just publicly called bullshit on the US?

The US government has a word to describe people who do such things, and it has drones to stop them from doing it again.

[Don Mynack]

C'mon man. They were using universal translators, like when the Klingons and the Romulans would get together and scheme.

[Lord Humungus]

You can own the Prime Minister's personal brass toilet roll holder as cash-strapped Labor stages furniture fire sale

Despite presiding over a $30 billion Budget deficit, the Government has spent millions relocating from its Sydney ministerial into a $670 million glass tower down the road in Bligh Street.

To help fund the move, over 1000 separate pieces of office goods from the old Philip Street offices are being auctioned this week, including the Prime Minister's personal brass toilet roll holder, a solid timber Cabinet room table that cost over $100,000 when it was first bought and scores of boardroom chairs purchased just three years ago.

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

Brass toilet, that funky toilet... Brass toilet, that funky toilet...

[Clich? Bandit]

wow...just, wow

[invisible furry hand]

the really funny thing is that now they've moved into 1 Bligh St at a giant cost they've finally discovered it's a fishbowl with glass lifts. It's almost impossible to have a secret meeting in it, so they have to creep away to cafes and hope no-one sees them.

[a better weapon]

Brass? Maybe for a travel monocle or a walking cane grip on loan while mine is in the shop, but such an undignified metal will not be touching my sensitive butt cheeks.

[Lord Humungus]

Florida thief smuggles puppies in his pants from Orlando pet shop

Surveillance video shows man stealing an $800 pug and $750 dachshund before leaving in a Crown Victoria. The owner of The Puppy Stop has offered a $250 reward.

[invisible furry hand]

was he a skinny Australian called Russell?

[Ted S.]

You like Aussies named Russell, don't you?

[invisible furry hand]

Our finest softcock superstars. But "All out of love" was better

i was thinking of this Russell

[Ted S.]

This one would be more suited to the H&R commentariat, I think.

[Ted S.]

Did the cops return the stolen goods or shoot them?

[Slammer]

Obama has directed Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, who has been accused of lying to Congress, to head up a review of government surveillance programs.

In other news, Obama has now directed a group of rats and mice to guard the nation's cheese supply.

[Lord Humungus]

David J. Bobb: Howard Zinn and the Art of Anti-Americanism

Thanks in part to an endorsement from the character played by Matt Damon in 1997's "Good Will Hunting," Zinn's magnum opus has also turned into a multimedia juggernaut. Actor Ben Affleck (like Mr. Damon, a family friend of Zinn's), and musicians Bruce Springsteen, Bob Dylan, Willie Nelson, Eddie Vedder and John Legend all have publicly praised Zinn. A History Channel documentary produced by Mr. Damon, "The People Speak," featured Hollywood A-listers Morgan Freeman, Viggo Mortensen, Kerry Washington and others reading from Zinn's books. There are "People's Histories" on topics including the American Revolution, Civil War, Vietnam and even science. Zinn die-hards can purchase a graphic novel, "A People's History of American Empire," while kids can pick up a two-volume set, "A Young People's History of the United States" (wall chart sold separately).

MATT DAMON!

[Bo Cara Esq.]

There's a lot of good stuff in Zinn's book for a libertarian. For many people it might be the only source of information they get on tyrannical and evil actions by the Wilson, Lincoln and Roosevelt administration, for one thing.

[John]

But all that "stuff" good or bad is generally poorly researched half truths. Just because it fits your narrative, doesn't mean it is okay for it not to be the truth.

[Lady Bertrum]

Zinn a propagandist. Any legitimate historian is obligated to attempt to set aside their own ideology and bias, not swim around in it.

Given, many fail, but it is an obligation, and time usually sorts the bullshitters from the quality.

Zinn is intellectually dishonest.

[Lord Humungus]

he's also a communist shithead

(I know, late to the party but gawd, I hate commies)

[Azathoth!!]

There's a lot of good stuff in Zinn's book for a liberal.

FTFY

[John]

The guy who lied to Congress is now going to reform the NSA. Yeah, that will solve the whole problem.

[Heedless]

Was Sandy Burger unavailable?

[Gray Ghost]

Did he ever say what document in the National Archives was just so damned important that it and all its copies had to be destroyed?

[John]

http://twitchy.com/2013/08/12/.....toure-pic/

Best screen shot of the year.

[Slammer]

They were saving BULGER found guilty for Weiner's interview.

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

That prosecutors got a Bulger!

[invisible furry hand]

Superb!

[John]

I see where Oprah regrets ever mentioning her alleged Rosa Parks experience in Switzerland. The charge of racism serves two functions in our society. First, it allows black people to excuse their own faults and make every day events part of something larger. If I didn't get a job, it is racism. If the clerk is rude to me, it is racism and just makes me a part of the larger historical struggle. People love thinking what happens to them is part of something larger. In our society, a tie is never just a tie. If a white celebrity bitches about a rude clerk, they are looked upon as being an arrogant self entitled celebrity. But a black celebrity can lay claim to being Rosa Parks. Whites in contrast get to use racism as a way of feeling superior to other whites. Oh the racist clerk was rude to you, that white trash bitch. I am so much better than that. Smug moral superiority over non liberal whites is the air liberal whites breath. So the charge of racism will never end in this country no matter what the reality. It is in too many people's interests for it to continue.

Sadly, what is going to happen is eventually non liberal whites will realize they are going to be called racists no matter what and start to resent it. When that happens, people will embrace real racism and we will be right back where we started.

[BardMetal]

"When that happens, people will embrace real racism and we will be right back where we started."

Well at least then it will be a bit more honest.

[John]

True. But it will suck really bad and liberals will have destroyed a lot of what is good about the country.

[Mike M.]

I always thought that Oprah was relatively normal, but her behavior seems to be getting more bizarre by the day. It looks like she's been infected with the virus of insane extreme leftism.

[John]

I wonder if she is in shock at how badly overtly shilling for Obama affected her career. Oprah became a billionaire by being a political and appealing to nearly everyone. When she shilled so hard for Obama she ended that and no longer had a uniquely broad appeal. I really think she had no idea that half of her viewership would be pissed off by her shoving politics down their throat. And really hasn't come to terms with it.

[Auric Demonocles]

I care so little about Oprah that I have no idea how she has been doing lately. Has her ratings gone down that much in response to her Obamellatio? Because that would be awesome.

[John]

Yes. They crashed. She doesn't have a show anymore. She just has a network and magazine that lose money. She went from being the successor to Johnny Carson to being just another rich celebrity.

[The DerpRider]

I think she has a movie coming out, and you know any publicity and all that....

[Mike M.]

I always thought she was relatively normal, but her behavior is getting more bizarre by the day. It looks like she's been infected with the virus of insane extreme leftism.

[Loki]

I wonder how much of that is a genuine turn to the far left, or if she's just recognizing that most of her fans these days are left-wing suburbanite soccer moms and she's just "playing to the crowd" so to speak.

[Lady Bertrum]

This didn't happen "in our society". It happened in Switzerland.

[John]

Yeah but Europeans are our enlightened superiors. So, the story has to be spun about racism in the United States.

[fish]

I thought the clerk gave the Opster the bums rush because she's fat...and a lesbian?!

(ducks)

[some guy]

When that happens, people will embrace real racism and we will be right back where we started.

I doubt it. People have been trending away from real racism for a long time now. I think people will simply embrace a "fuck the PC police" attitude. They'll just stop caring so much about how other people see them regarding race. Racism really is on its last legs. What you are hearing is its death cry.

[John]

I hope you are right. But I am naturally pessimistic about things.

[some guy]

I'm pessimistic about politics, but not about society as a whole. Quality of life for everyone has undeniably been improving over time. We're also becoming more integrated and more global. Racism can't last long under those circumstances. We will always judge each other by the way we look, but skin color will be replaced by things that individuals actually control.

[VG Zaytsev]

I see where Oprah regrets ever mentioning her alleged Rosa Parks experience in Switzerland.

I'm calling bullshit on the whole episode. It never happened, claiming that it did is just a publicity stunt to get Oprah some good press - and it worked.

[Mike M.]

Remember, Obamacare will save you money on your insurance, even though the cost caps are being delayed for at least a year and a half.

Never has there been a more mendacious group of bastards than there are in charge now.

[John]

Money is free. We can limit your out of pocket expenses and insurance companies will just print more money so they don't have to raise your premiums.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

The cost cap is higher than the cap on my current high deductible plan, which I won't be allowed to keep because it isn't real insurance.

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

What is the cost cap going to be now?

[Night Elf Mohawk]

$6,350 for an individual, if it ever goes live.

[Brett L]

Probably why they did this. The HDHP plan holders rioted when one of the bigs started informing them that they would have to change their plans or pay the penaltax.

[Mike M.]

I wonder if someone out there is keeping track of all the lies the public was told about this abominable law, because I've lost track at this point.

[Auric Demonocles]

I'm sure Politifact is doing that, as calling out politicians for big lies is their claim to fame. Right? RIGHT!?

[Andrew S.]

Every time I think Gawker has reached peak stupid, they exceed their prior stupidity.

http://gawker.com/ban-lawns-1107358428

[Brett L]

Peak Stupid is a myth.

[John]

It is like track world records. There is always someone a little faster.

[Ted S.]

The cpeed limit is c.

[Ted S.]

That of course is a typo and not a clever pun. 🙁

[John]

Which is stupid is when these people finally lose the ability to feed themselves and die off. I am thinking the clowns who refuse to vaccinate their kids are getting pretty close to that.

[Clich? Bandit]

I refuse to believe that the speed limit is c. Einstein even said it isn't a given. It just fits best for our current observations.

[Scruffy Nerfherder]

Never occurs to them that if they just freed up the water market, that watering your lawn would just be priced out.

And they're bitching about garages? They sound like a bunch of cranky old women.

[John]

In the Southwest where water is scarce and expensive, people generally don't have lawns. That damn law of supply and demand has got to be repealed.

[jesse.in.mb]

There was a great aerial shot a few years ago of a subdivision in the southwest that was quite verdant with large yards and lawns abutting a desert. I'm trying to find it, but not having any luck.

It's visually striking even if it may be atypical.

[DontShootMe]

sound like a bunch of teenagers who are pissed at their parents.

[Fluffy]

They don't want to do that, because then rich people would still get to have lawns, but it would cost poor people more to take a shower.

Ultimately that is their core objection to the entire concept of "price". They really don't believe in price as a mechanism and anywhere price isn't currently used, extending its use is completely unthinkable (to them).

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

The commenters there state it outright. "I want iPhones to be subject to market forces. Water...not so much"

That's pretty much verbatim.

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

The day I worry about what low-rent class-envious losers have to say is the day I get out my rifle.

[John]

The best part is this

Americans do not use their lawns. Americans, collectively, are obese people that sit in air-conditioned houses watching cable television.

Since he doesn't think you are using your lawn properly, he can take it from you. Some people really deserve to be kicked in the head.

[Enough About Palin]

I seem to recall reading (sorry, no link as it was years ago) that a well manicured lawn uses more CO2 than a rain forest of equal size. Grasses are plants, FFS.

[mad libertarian guy]

Would it be an acceptable use of my 5 acres if I got up off my ass in between cable shows in order to shoot him multiple times in increasingly painful places (in the back yard, of course)? Because that seems like it would be awesome.

[Lady Bertrum]

The first clause in the first sentence of the article is pure stupid:

"As the Great American Suburban Experiment comes to an ignominious end..."

Really?

[John]

That will news to the tens of millions of people who live in them and the millions more who move to them every year.

The liberal hatred of the suburb is one of their more intense neurosis.

[BardMetal]

I always assumed most liberals came from the suburbs.

[Loki]

They were born an raised there, but then after listening to left-tard humanities profs (while mommy and daddy paid their tuition and living expenses) shove 4 years of propaganda down their throats about how much better it is to live in a big crowded city like the Europeans do they decided to move to Brooklyn, Portland, or Austin and become "artists" or "writers". Despite not having any actual talent whatsoever.

And, true to their brain dead left-tard form, they assume everyone else thinks and acts just like them and the only reason some people don't is because of "false conciousness" or because they're actually evil, and therefore everything about the suburban lifestyle must be destroyed. Because KKKORPORASHUNZ!

[Lady Bertrum]

And after they fail as artists or writer, they go get a credential in education or social services so they can get a public "service" job and suck off the teat and then bitch about the greed of Wall Street rapists and the corporations.

[Lady Bertrum]

All the while "educating" or "counseling" your child in the same suburban public school they attended.

[Suthenboy]

You know who else was a failed artist and bitched about the greedy?

Sorry, I couldnt help myself.

[Lady Bertrum]

(lifting eyebrows and nodding knowingly)He also was a "public sector worker".

[Lord Humungus]

I live in a suburb... frickin' love it. A huge backyard, a winding street, old trees, lots of green grass, and the houses are far enough apart that I don't have to hear everything my neighbors do.

When I used to live on a cramped lot in the city, it was "get to know your neighbors". You could hear every car door slam, every conversation in the street, or the neighbors humping with the windows open.

[The DerpRider]

I see you listed a positive to offset the negatives of urban living. Good for you!

[fish]

"As the Great American Suburban Experiment comes to an ignominious end..."

Behold the tragedy of Kunstler channeling!

[Irish]

I find it funny that something that has existed in its current form since the 1950's is an 'experiment.'

[Suthenboy]

There it is. Ban golf courses. Why do lefties hate golf so much?

It is a game about precision, competing against yourself to become better, requires self discipline, and is mostly played by the more successful individuals in our society.

I remember being puzzled when Hugo Chavez went on an anti-golf / golf course crusade. Then I had a talk with a progressive and managed to decode his rant about the evils of golf.

[Andrew S.]

Because they see it as a game that only rich people play. And as we all know, rich people are inherently evil.

[Spoonman.]

I hate municipal golf courses.

Allentown, Pennsylvania has a municipal golf course. Allentown had to sell its water system to make pension payments (not that that wasn't a good idea, SLD).

[califernian]

It was the death penalty in China to even PLAY golf until about 1982

[Mike M.]

Don't tell them that Tim Finchem is a dyed-in-the-wool lefty Obamabot and that the Golf Channel is another subsidiary of the extreme left wing NBC.

[Loki]

I couldn't even make it halfway through that drivel. That much retardedness mixed with smug condescending elitist douche-baggery should come with a warning label.

[invisible furry hand]

it does come with a warning label - gawker.com

[Loki]

Touche.

[mr simple]

Ha.
rhymeasaurusUHamilton Nolan851L
Does Hamilton Nolan like anything other than super squats and sowing misery wherever he goes? Yesterday 11:48am

KeisertrollUrhymeasaurus121L
He likes it when you yell out Matt Yglesias' name when you make love to him. Yesterday 11:53am

It's bad when even the Gawker readers turn against you.

[Damned Fool]

Heh. I know this one guy studying public planning. After hearing how he felt about lawns, I decided to set him off when we were eating with some people. In retrospect, that was a lot more trouble than it was worth.

[Spoonman.]

I would LOVE to not have a lawn. But it seems it isn't possible to buy a house in Pennsylvania that doesn't share walls that doesn't have a lawn.

Why is the concept of a patio home so alien here? It's thoroughly embraced in Texas.

[Zeb]

What's a patio home? Does that mean the whole yard is paved? Otherwise, lawn is just what happens.

[Spoonman.]

Very small lot, and yes, the non-house area is paved. Like this.

[UnCivilServant]

Because unlike Texas, grass grows naturally in Pennsylvania.

[Lady Bertrum]

Right. Lawn in the N.E. needs only minor maintenance - it just happens, except for mowing. In the spring spread a fertilizer/weed killer and you're good to go for the year. Mow once a week - no big deal.

[Zeb]

I don't even do that. Just mowing. If it is green and can be mowed, it's good enough lawn for me.

[Lady Bertrum]

I live on 4 acres and have only about 2 feet of lawn that circles my pool. The rest is trees, meadow, and garden. But, my pool probably makes me evil - so there's that.

[jesse.in.mb]

It depends is it an above ground or in ground pool?

[Zeb]

I think it's pretty dumb to have a lawn in a place where you need to water it to keep it alive. But it's none of my business. And a lot fewer people would be watering lawns in the desert west if water were priced more realistically.

[John]

It will be interesting to see what happens if NYC actually stops doing stop and frisks. The program only affects minorities and primarily young black men. If crime doesn't go up, then I guess we can assume that the NYPD really is racist ans was conducting a program that didn't reduce crime but was only designed to harass black people. If crime goes up, then perhaps young black men are the problem and the NYPD was acting rationally in focusing on them. Neither result exactly fits the liberal narrative.

[BardMetal]

"Neither result exactly fits the liberal narrative."

Which means the media and the government will simply ignore it, or rewrite it until it fits the narrative.

Sort of like how they turned George Zimmerman into a white hispanic. (whatever the hell that is).

[John]

Yes. And I honestly don't know what will happen. But suppose NYC goes back to what it was in the late 1980s. It would be pretty hard to square that result with the meme that it is racist to think a young black male any differently than Catholic school girls. But, I am sure they will try.

[Bam!]

Dude, Catholic school girls are far more vicious to one another than black men are.

[John]

That is only if you count emotional abuse. And they are only cruel to each other. But they don't beat one another up. They just inflict emotional scares that never heal and result in bulimia and cutting and things like that.

[Ted S.]

But "cyberbullying" is the new moral panic!

[invisible furry hand]

they don't beat one another up

Bollocks.

signed

a former Catholic schoolgirl

[Eduard van Haalen]

Pics or it didn't...I mean that's awful.

[John]

Okay, they don't generally beat up outsiders and or adults.

[Lord Humungus]

the majority of my girlfriends were Catholic... weird that.

[Slammer]

Zappa

[Dr. Frankenstein]

Don't forget there is stop and talk. You know actual community policing. This may result in a decrease in crime or at least not increasing it.

[BelowTheRim]

Anybody see Rand dominate on the John Oliver programme last night?

They cut Rand off halfway through with the BS 'He ran over allotted time'.

Gosh do I hate Daily Show and Colbert, they really are the mouth breathers of "news".

[fish]

Gosh do I hate Daily Show and Colbert, they really are the mouth breathers of "news".

The Daily Show is tolerable when Stewart is there....and hey at least Colbert came out of the closet and dared to declare his forbidden love of Steven Colbert.

[Loki]

"Furry" who dresses as a dog arrested for having sex with a cat.

Not a cat as in another "furry" who dresses like a cat. An actual cat. I guess he just wanted to fuck a pussy.

This guy's gonna get raped so hard in prison it's not even funny.

[John]

Sick, cruel fuck. Lock him in the same cell with the vegans who feed their kittens vegan diets.

[Loki]

The only problem with that is who's gonna pitch? Have you ever seen a vegan with the upper body strength to rape to anyone? I haven't. No, what you need to do is lock him and the retard vegans in a cell with a mass murderer or rapist with a soft spot for animals.

[BardMetal]

You know even with all the weird fetishes out there, I find the "furries" to be exceptionally creepy.

[The DerpRider]

Bronies.

[Andrew S.]

They just like a TV show. It's not a sexual thing for the vast majority of them.

Furries, on the other hand...

[Enough About Palin]

I gotta figure that trying to fuck a cat is extremely risky. Hard enough just getting them to not kill you when applying Frontline Plus.

[MP]

Me-OW!

[invisible furry hand]

Click through, look at his mugshot, and then wonder why this guy had to wear a disguise just to fuck a cat

[some guy]

Eric Holder lied about some other stuff too.

This admin really has no respect for... anybody.

[Ted S.]

Eric Holder lied about some other stuff too.

No shit, Sherlock.

[Auric Demonocles]

Come on people, this is Hit and Run is only rated 5th best, and why the commenters aren't even mentioned in the write-up: we allow alt-text less posts to go unheckled!

[some guy]

Are elections decided by chance?

It really looks like they are. So why do we even bother with this farce?

[Bam!]

Because if we didn't bother with this farce, we'd be throwing our votes away! (And not in the Chicago way.)

[Auric Demonocles]

Pretty good article, except for the fact that Democrats have won 4 out of 6, not 5/6.

But winning five of six presidential elections when there are only two major parties competing is another beast altogether.

He does do a better job later on saying "popular vote".

[some guy]

He says that Dems have won the popular vote 5 of the last 6 times. Technically correct is the best kind of correct.

[Auric Demonocles]

I already acknowledged that he does say that later in the article.

[Jordan]

The Michael Hastings case just keeps getting crazier:

This week Elise Jordan, wife of famed journalist Michael Hastings, who recently died under suspicious circumstances, corroborated this reporter's sources that CIA Director, John Brennan was Hastings next expos? project.

Last month a source provided San Diego 6 News with an alarming email hacked from super secret CIA contractor Stratfor's President Fred Burton. The email (link here) was posted on WikiLeaks and alleged that then Obama counter-terrorism Czar Brennan, was in charge of the government's continued crackdown or witch-hunt on investigative journalists.

[...]

An SDSU professor Morteza M. Mehrabadi, Professor and Interim Chair Areas of Specialization: Mechanics of Materials told San Diego 6 News that calculating the speed of Hastings car follows a simple mathematic equation. By using the video and the distance traveled (195 feet) as well as the seconds that lapsed prior to the explosion ? in his opinion, the car was traveling roughly 35 mph.

That revelation is important because Jose, an employee of ALSCO a nearby business, and a witness to the accident told KTLA/Loud Labs (Scott Lane) the car was traveling at a high rate of speed and he saw sparks coming from the car and saw it explode BEFORE hitting the tree.

[John]

I don't know what to think about that. But I will say this, Brennen is a scary, craven fuck. He is what liberals pretend Dick Cheney was.

[Loki]

You ever get the feeling that maybe the tinfoil hat crowd has been right all along?

[Don Mynack]

There is a lot more to Rand Paul's holdout on Brennan then we know, or the press is willing to dig into. Some special forces guys (I don't remember where I read it) pegged Brennan as running the Benghazi smuggling op, back when the CIA was denying there were people there. Of course, Brennan wasn't CIA yet..just a White House staffer. Very, very curious.

[ant1sthenes]

If only he had been murdered in Miami, this shit would already have been sorted out.

[Fatty Bolger]

ATTORNEY FOR WHISTLEBLOWER: 400 U.S. MISSILES STOLEN IN BENGHAZI

On August 12, Joe DiGenova, attorney for one of the Benghazi whistleblowers, told Washington D.C.'s WMAL that one of the reasons people have remained tight-lipped about Benghazi is because 400 U.S. missiles were "diverted to Libya" and ended up being stolen and falling into "the hands of some very ugly people."

DiGenova represents Benghazi whistleblower Mark Thompson. He told WMAL that he "does not know whether [the missiles] were at the annex, but it is clear the annex was somehow involved in the distribution of those missiles."

No idea if this guy is credible or not, but it's obvious now that something shady was happening at that annex, and this seems as plausible as the next theory.

[Bam!]

"U.S. missiles" isn't specific enough; raises an alarm.

[CatoTheElder]

It's been obvious from the outset that Benghazi was more than "shady".

For one thing, why was there a US consulate in Benghazi in the first place? The city has a half-million population, almost no US expats, no trade with the US, and nobody that should get a US visa. Also Benghazi was obviously situated in one of the world's most dangerously crazy places, which had been opened up to the US only recently. Compare with, say, Kunming, China which has a population of six million, lots of US expats, significant export trade, and locals who pose no risk in travel to the US, but no US consulate to grant visas.

There are numerous cities with significant population that do not have US consulates. The only reason Benghazi did was to provide diplomatic cover for some really, really shady shit.

[John]

It was an "annex" whatever that is. And beyond that, why did they attack there and nowhere else? There were either weapons or prisoners there or both. They were running a secret arms operation to suppply the Syrian rebels and probably had a secret prison there as well. And God knows what weapons are now in the hands of our enemies as a result of it.

Benghazi is a scandal of epic preportions. and thus the media and Obama will do anything to ensure the truth never comes out.

[Fluffy]

Benghazi was the HQ of the anti-Khadafi revolution. It was the first city the rebels seized. After Khadafi fell, it was seen as a more "reliable" city than Tripoli.

Lots of things about the story don't make sense, but the presence of a consulate there isn't really one of them.

[Fluffy]

I actually feel a little bad for the clerk in Switzerland who dissed Oprah.

I have to imagine it's a lot like working in one of the extremely high end stores in a Vegas casino - all day, every day, tourist assholes who aren't going to buy anything and don't have the money to buy anything come in and waste your time.

Eventually I'm sure you just get sick of taking the bag down from the display only to put it back up again.

[John]

It is very hard to work in such places. The problem is that people who have the money to be there just expect you to know who they are. And since no one dresses up anymore, they often look like slep tourists or worse. So this kind of stuff happens a lot.

The very same thing happened to Rosanne Barr's ex husband. He went into some high end jewelry store in LA to buy Rosanne an anniversary present and they asked him to leave. They thought he was some tourist. Right as he was leaving t hey figured out who he was too late.

This whole thing is about Oprah being angry some Swiss guy didn't know who she was. If she were white, no one would care. But since she is black she gets to claim racism.

[Auric Demonocles]

Well obviously if someone didn't recognize her it is because he thinks all black people look the same! He probably didn't even realize she was a woman!

[John]

And we all know there are no black people in Europe and average black Americans would never travel there. So he should have known she was someone important. Racist. Probably a Heb or something.

[Spoonman.]

Some jerk spent $600 in Vegas stores on my company credit card, which luckily I caught - my last transaction was $4 at McDonald's last April.

Who spends $80.99 at Starbucks?

[Kaptious Kristen]

So I met the squeeze's teenage son. He's a little shit. In other words, a carbon copy of his ol' dad. I'm buying them lunch today before they take off to Indy for Nerd Gen Con.

[Brett L]

He's a little shit. In other words, a carbon copy of his ol' dad.

Nice.

[trshmnstr]

Question for the lawyers in the commentariat: I'm starting law school today (well, orientation starts today), and I was glancing over the syllabus for my Civil Procedure course. Why am I learning about Civil Procedure "through a lens of Critical Race Theory and Feminist Theory", among other things?

I figured I'd be learning how to craft a good interrogatory, how to depose a party, and the process of bringing a case to court, not taking a whirlwind tour through Aggrieved Studies.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

I figured I'd be learning how to craft a good interrogatory, how to depose a party, and the process of bringing a case to court, not taking a whirlwind tour through Aggrieved Studies.

I'd say the odds are that you're going to be bitterly disappointed in any 1L civ pro class.

That course description doesn't sound anything like a first year class, though. Unless you are at Amanda's Upstairs Legal College.

[trshmnstr]

To be fair, the phrasing was more like "On occasion we'll view civil procedure through a variety of lenses, including economics, (some more entries in the list), Critical Race Theory, and Feminist Theory."

I wasn't aware that the procedures involved in bringing suit were somehow viewed differently by economists, women, and black people, but I guess I'll listen.

[BiMonSciFiCon]

Duh. "Class"-action lawsuits!

That sounds truly terrible. Civ Pro was bad enough without that nonsense.

[Pro Libertate]

That's very unusual. I didn't get anything overtly political until my second Con Law class, where the professor was really more concerned about government rights than individual ones.

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

"Question for the lawyers in the commentariat: I'm starting law school today..."

Have you dropped out yet? If not, why not?

[Pro Libertate]

Law school is probably still okay if you're an A student. It's everyone else that's screwed in the job market right now.

At some point, the boomers are retiring.

[trshmnstr]

I'm an engineer going in for patent law, and I've heard that IP is in a bit less of a downturn than the rest of the industry.

I'm at a top 50 school, and have the talent to be top 5% if I work hard enough.

[BiMonSciFiCon]

The IP department at my firm is very busy right now, more so than the other departments. That seems to be the case generally.

[Pro Libertate]

Just the patent trolls alone will keep patent law a booming profession. Though I've heard it's not quite the sweet 9-5 gig it used to be. Not as much, anyway.

[Suthenboy]

Civil Procedure "through a lens of Critical Race Theory and Feminist Theory"

I think I would knock the shit out of someone who told me I had to take that class.

[The Late P Brooks]

Why am I learning about Civil Procedure "through a lens of Critical Race Theory and Feminist Theory", among other things?

You didn't think you'd be viewing it through Constitutional lens, did you?

[Thane of Whiterun]

Who made The Smoke Monster DNI?

[Thane of Whiterun]

One of my ladytarian friends was recently caught wearing a "why Kirk is better than Picard" shirt.

Discuss.

[fish]

Almost got away with it didn't you.....

[Thane of Whiterun]

Hm?

[Kaptious Kristen]

LIES! Everyone knows there are no libertarian chicks!

[Loki]

Your "ladytarian friend" is an aspie.

[Lady Bertrum]

No, His ladytarian friend wants to fuck and aspie - or attract an aspie.

[Thane runs off sobbing]

Or she likes Star Trek

[Pro Libertate]

Discuss what? Only someone trolling these threads would disagree. Maybe a Sisco vs. Picard thread would get some legitimate debate. Sisco's biggest advantage being, of course, that he's Hawk.

Speaking of Hawk, I just read the first Spenser book yesterday.

[Auric Demonocles]

It really depends on what context you are in. Do you want to win in a fistfight? Kirk. Do you want to outwit an enemy alien in a spacefight? Picard Maneuver. Do you want to be the basis for a religion? Sisko. Do you want to fuck up an alien race? Sisko. Do you want to fuck an alien chick? Kirk Maneuver.

[mr simple]

Spacedebate, maybe, but not a spacefight.

Oh, and I assume we're talking about the Chris Pine Kirk, right?

[Pro Libertate]

What? Kirk wins on the outwitting, too. People forget how cerebral he was portrayed at times. Easy to do with all of the killing, fucking, killing, and fucking, I suppose. I mean, he out-thought Spock on occasion.

I agree that Kirk lacked godhood, but one must remember that he regularly defeated gods.

[robc]

Jellico is the best Enterprise captain.

[Pro Libertate]

Blah, blah, no he fucking wasn't. I hate stupid memes like this. It's like bacon everything. Fuck.

[robc]

Who was better?

I also didnt realize it was a meme. Ive been saying it since the episode aired. Maybe I started the meme?

[Pro Libertate]

Maybe. Kirk is the best possible captain. He saved the whole universe. Jellico did shit.

[Rasilio]

No, he was the only real military officer ever portrayed in any of the Star Trek series.

Picard was a very good diplomat, Kirk was a space cowboy more suited to space piracy (and would probably have been an excellent pirate captain) and Sisco was a pretty capable military governor.

Jellico was the only captain who actually acted like an honest to goodness military ships captain and therefore was by default the best.

[Fist of Etiquette]

JANEWAY WAS THE GREATEST CAPTAIN EVER.

[Pro Libertate]

I hope you mean that she toured with a Toni Tennille hologram after she retired.

[Matrix]

Oklahoma police officer who killed a boy has record expunged

Parents are just being over sensitive, I'm sure...

[Gray Ghost]

For those who can't traverse the paywall, this is the case where the idiot Noble, OK police tried to shoot a rattlesnake out of a tree. With their .357 Sig service pistols. Without a backstop. Naturally, the bullets kept going, and plunked a six-year-old in the head, some 200 yards down range.

It gets better. The cops initially denied the bullets came from their guns. The D.A. did indict for manslaughter 2, but accepted a plea deal that: fined them $1000, gave them probation, removed their LEO certification, and allowed them after 2 years on paper to get their records expunged. This allows them to be LEOs again, if they want.

These two blogs provide some more details.

Motherfuckers. I'd still be in jail if I did something so colossally stupid.

[The Late P Brooks]

Huh. Bloomberg reporter just pointed out that none of Elon Musk's fabulous vaporware business concepts have actually made anything remotely resembling an operating profit. Also pointed out gaping holes in the Tesla narrative. He's probably getting a scolding right now.

[Brett L]

I assume the hedgefunds have made their pricepoint on the Tesla IPO and even some sucker money. Now time to make a profit on the short side from the suckers.

[Fluffy]

http://rt.com/news/atheists-mo.....gious-433/

[John]

Too bad they can't understand the concept of self selection and sample size.

[The Late P Brooks]

the professor was really more concerned about government rights than individual ones.

Sounds familiar. Did he have a Nobel Peace Prize?

[Pro Libertate]

No, this was a real professor, not an adjunct.

[invisible furry hand]

no, he hasn't made his bones yet

[Ken Shultz]

"Obama has directed Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, who has been accused of lying to Congress, to head up a review of government surveillance programs."

Barack Obama is spitting in our faces and laughing.

[Pro Libertate]

He's been doing that for quite some time.

[NeonCat]

That's not spit.

[Kaptious Kristen]

Feds are afraid their air miles will be invalidated.

[mad libertarian guy]

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg has said that "countless lives" have been saved by the NYPD's Stop and Frisk program, which was recently ruled unconstitutional by a federal judge.

Except that SnF wasn't ruled unconstitutional, only the way it was implemented. The problem was not that the NYPD was searching hundreds of thousands of people without any kind of real reason, but that they were searching minorities at a much greater clip.

Scheindlin noted she was not putting an end to the practice, which is constitutional, but was reforming the way the NYPD implemented its stops.

In her long ruling, she determined at least 200,000 stops were made without reasonable suspicion, the necessary legal benchmark, lower than the standard of probable cause needed to justify an arrest. She said that rank-and-file officers were pressured by superiors to make stops ? and that high-ranking police officials ignored mounting evidence that bad stops were being made.

These searches would be fine if the proportion of those searched included more whites, which seems to me to be a bunch of bullshit. The criteria for a Terry search is less stringent, but still tough enough that it should used infrequently.

Ultimately this is good, but we need to reframe the argument against SnF as a 4a issue, not simply a racial one.

[The Late P Brooks]

we need to reframe the argument against SnF as a 4a issue, not simply a racial one.

How quaint.

[Konima]

I actually feel slightly optimistic about one thing today:
I read a few tech/entertainment/science blogs, and usually they are populated by commenters who are stringent, unwavering pro-Obama. People who seemed willing to trust the government with just about anything. With the recent onslaught of NSA revelations, I've seen a conspicuous shift in opinion. Of course, there are still Republicans and Democrats who will say, "I have nothing to hide!!"

It seems like Rand Paul might have a decent chance. Then again, the media/Republican establishment will likely desecrate him at ever turn. Hell, never mind. The real issues will once again be obfuscated come election time. Rand will likely be disqualified because he is/was against affirmative action. Game over.