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Policy

Are Hispanics Too Stupid to Become Americans?

No. And here's why.

Ronald Bailey | 5.17.2013 1:30 PM

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Last week, the conservative Heritage Foundation issued a new study purporting to show that letting illegal immigrants from south of the border become citizens would cost more than $6 trillion dollars in social benefits by 2050. Researchers from all segments of the political spectrum contested that finding. In the midst of the controversy, it turned out that one of the study's authors, Jason Richwine, had argued in his 2009 Harvard dissertation that immigration policy should focus on selecting and admitting individuals with higher IQs. Naturally, all hell broke loose, and the brave leadership at Heritage tossed the hapless Richwine overboard by the end of the week. 

So what exactly did Richwine's dissertation say? And is there any truth to it?

For most of his analysis, he relies on the work of the University of Ulster psychologist Richard Lynn and the University of Tampere political scientist Tatu Vanhanen, which focuses on differential average IQs between nations. Consequently, Richwine's main argument is that Hispanic immigrants and their American descendants have low IQs because they have immigrated from countries whose citizens have low average IQs. As further evidence, Richwine cites a review of 39 studies by the Clemson psychologist Philip Roth and colleagues that reports that Hispanic-American IQs average 89.2 points. Richwine also reviews research suggesting that second-generation average Hispanic-American IQs and incomes do increase, but that there is not much of an increase in either over subsequent generations. Richwine agrees that these IQ deficits in poor countries are partially the result of bad nutrition, pervasive infections, and lack of adequate schooling, but he also suggests that there is a significant genetic component.

Early in the 20th century, various immigration restrictionists made a somewhat similar argument. While Richwine is aware of the debates over immigrant IQs that took place in that period, he concludes that "there was hardly any consensus at all about that topic." A brief look back at leading research at the time finds that Richwine is being overly dismissive: Now-discredited theories about ethnicity and IQ dominated the field.

For example: In 1919 Lewis Terman, one of the founders of intelligence testing, reported in his book The Intelligence of School Children that the American-born children of Spanish immigrants had an average IQ of 78. For the children of Portuguese immigrants, the average was 84; Italians, 84; northern Europeans, 105; and Old Stock Americans—descendants of British, German, and Dutch immigrants—106.

The Princeton psychologist Carl Campbell Brigham, using data from intelligence tests administered to army draftees during World War I, reported the results in his 1923 opus A Study of American Intelligence. The Yale psychologist Robert Yerkes, summarized Brigham's data in a 1923 article for The Eugenics Review, asserting that American army officers scored an average of 18 on Brigham's intelligence scale, whereas the average white draftee scored 13.77. Immigrants from England scored 14.87; from Germany, 13.88; from Norway, 12.98. Irish immigrants scored 12.32; Greeks, 11.90; Russians, 11.34; Italians, 11.01; Poles, 10.74; and "U.S. Colored," 10.41. 

Phrenology.org

Similarly, the eugenicist Paul Popenoe claimed in a 1924 article that if a mental age of 20 years was taken as the point attained by a very intelligent adult, 16 years was the average normal adult of white American stock. Popenoe added, "The young men of Grecian birth measured below the average mentality of a 12-year-old American schoolboy; the larger contingents of Russia and Italy are not far above the level (10.37 years) of the American negro or of a white adult who is of 'dull mentality.'" And in 1926, after 5,000 Massachusetts schoolchildren were given intelligence tests, the Harvard researcher Nathaniel Hirsch published the results in his monograph, A Study of Natio-Racial Mental Differences. His list of ethnic groups, from smartest to dullest, was: "Polish Jews, Swedes, English, Russian Jews, Germans, Americans, Lithuanians, Irish, British Canadians, Russians, Poles, Greeks, Italians, French Canadians, Negroes, and Portuguese."

Richwine is right that not every IQ researcher in the early 20th century agreed that many immigrant groups were dim-witted. For example, the Hartford Public School researcher Gustav Feingold reported in 1924 that "American-reared children of foreign-born parents show insignificant mental differences among themselves." Similarly, K.T. Yeung reported in a 1921 article that there were "no striking differences in the intelligence of the Chinese and American children." Nevertheless, the restrictionist researchers were far more prominent in the public debate over immigration.  

Richwine suggests that the research reporting low immigrant IQs played essentially no role in the passage of the highly restrictive 1924 Immigration Act. As evidence, he notes that there is practically no mention of such research in the congressional testimony related to that legislation. But it was clearly part of the larger public debate about immigration. In 1924, Feingold, for example, worried that as a result of the research into immigrant IQs, "Educators and congressmen have become alarmed at the possible inferiority of our future immigrants. The present immigration laws are proof that no uncertain fear was evoked following the publication of the data."

In his review of Hirsch's book, the Tufts University psychologist George Van Ness Dearborn opined, "It is to be hoped that our present immigration law if not strengthened will be at least maintained indefinitely and stringently enforced, for the 'melting pot' is running over however slow the fusion of these alien stocks within it…. We have enough people but they have not enough education or intelligence."

Richwine acknowledges that this earlier work claiming that immigrant groups suffered intelligence deficits was premature and muddled. He notes, "There is no modern evidence of substantial IQ differences among American whites of different national backgrounds." In other words, the average IQs of the descendants of all those Poles, Jews, Italians, Russians, Greeks, and other low IQ immigrants have converged upward to the American average. But the lower average IQ of Hispanics—both American-born and new immigrants—is "persistent," he argues, so he doubts that they will so converge.

So what does Richwine want to do about immigration? Unlike the early-20th-century restrictionists, he rejects the notion of ethnic and national quotas. "Group differences in intelligence do exist," he writes, but "that does not mean that any individual should ever be judged on the basis of group membership." Richwine wants instead to give intelligence tests to individual prospective immigrants from wherever they may hail and to let the smartest ones in. 

As noted above, Richwine relies a great deal on the research of Lynn and Vanhanen that finds persistent IQ deficits in many nations. Recently, American Conservative publisher Ron Unz analyzed their work and concluded that in fact, their data suggest that low average national and ethnic IQs are not persistent. Instead, average IQs rise as countries become wealthier. For example, Lynn and Vanhanen cite four studies from 1967 in which West Germans' average IQ scores ranged from 99 to 107 while East German scores were as low at 90. Now both eastern and western scores in Germany average around 102.

In 1961, according to Lynn and Vanhanen, the average Greek IQ was 88. According to other data, Croatians had an average of 90, Bulgarians were at 91, Romanians were at 94, Poles were at 92, and Sicilians were at 89. In 1972, the lowest IQ scores in Europe belonged to the Irish, who averaged just 87 points. These results are not far off from those that the early 20th century psychometricians found for immigrant groups coming to America. But as Unz points out, by the 21st century the incomes and educational attainments of American descendants of Greek, Slav, Italian, and Irish immigrants are now comfortably above those of the Old Stock white natives whose purity Brigham, Hirsch, and Yerkes were so anxious to defend.

And the Irish? Even Lynn and Vanhanen's data find they've largely caught up. In the 2009 results from the triennial Program for International Student Assessment, the Irish now outscore the British on reading and are very close on math and science. Interestingly, the current Hispanic-American IQ is slightly higher than the average Irish IQ in 1972. It isn't definitive, but using data from the Wordsum test in the General Social Survey, which correlates fairly well with IQ, Unz reports the IQ scores of second-generation Mexican Americans have likely risen a full 10 points in the past 20 years.

Hispanic educational achievements and incomes do lag behind those of white Americans. And certainly there is a substantial genetic component to intelligence; genes are, after all, the recipes that build bodies and brains in response to environmental cues. Yet as Unz's analysis of Lynn and Vanhanen's data shows, the average IQ of a population can change in a generation whereas its genetic makeup cannot.  So what else might account for relatively lower Hispanic achievement so far in the U.S.?

The University of Texas economist Stephen Trejo suggests a number of possibilities. For example, Mexican immigration has lasted longer than immigration from any other country, promoting the growth and stability of culturally comfortable ethnic enclaves and slowing the process of assimilation. Trejo also proposes that earlier generations of unskilled immigrants faced a far less steep learning curve for moving up in a modern economy. In his 2005 book Italians Then, Mexicans Now, the Bard College sociologist Joel Perlman bolsters this point: "The crucial difference between the immigrant experience a hundred years ago and today is that relatively well-paid jobs were plentiful for workers with little education a hundred years ago, while today's immigrants arrive in an increasingly unequal America." Trejo also wonders if some fairly significant proportion of Mexican-Americans have simply already melded into the white population and so are not counted in the sorts of IQ, income, and education statistics cited by Richwine and other researchers.

Perlman concludes that "Mexican economic assimilation may take more time—four or five generations rather than three or four." Possibly so. But ultimately, modern Hispanic immigrants seem to be no stupider than the immigrant ancestors of other Americans.

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NEXT: Jorge Videla, Former Argentine Dictator, Dies in Prison

Ronald BaileyĀ is science correspondent atĀ Reason.

PolicyImmigrationScience & TechnologyCultureIQIntelligenceEconomics
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  1. jesse.in.mb   12 years ago

    Are we American baiting?

    1. Heroic Mulatto   12 years ago

      Hey, remember the thread where I so completely destroyed Americlown's "arguments" that he was reduced to posting non sequitur and nonsense?

      That was awesome.

      1. LTC(ret) John   12 years ago

        Which time? I lose track of them all...

        1. ron650   12 years ago

          Start working at home with Google! It's by-far the best job Ive had. Last Wednesday I got a brand new BMW since getting a check for $6474 this - 4 weeks past. I began this 8-months ago and immediately was bringin home at least $77 per hour. I work through this link, http://www.Mojo50.com

      2. tarran   12 years ago

        Around here we call that Thursday.

      3. Nikki makes the sign of a tsp   12 years ago

        Has he ever posted anything other than non sequiturs and nonsense?

        1. Almanian!   12 years ago

          American is like our former troll Max - full of derp and fun to bat around on the H n R.

      4. mnarayan   12 years ago

        You mean the thread where you gave a serious, thought-out response to someone who was probably a troll but might have been a racist nutjob? I think you're going to have to add a bit of scoping for there to be just one. The author's name and precise minute of thread creation might be enough.

    2. Jules   12 years ago

      The analysis by Unz doesn't withstand scrutiny unfortunately.

      1. a statistically significant correlation can be found between birth year and scores for some of the nations which Lynn has provided data for, but Ireland, at this time, is not one of them.

      2. There is no evidence of a Hispanic Flynn effect if you go through 14 nationally representative samples ( PISA 2009, PISA 2006, TIMSS 2007, PIRLS 2006, PIRLS 2001, ADD Health, GSS, NLSY 79, NLSY 97, CNLSY, NAEP Main, NAEP Long term, High School Transcript Study, and NELS).

      http://humanvarieties.org/2013.....as-a-bear/

      3. The The largest analysis to date was conducted by Roth et al (2001). A meta-analytic general intelligence gap of 0.72 SD was found for the 70s through 90s:

      Looking at 3rd generation and beyond Hispanic scores: The differences ranges from 0.35 SD (GSS) to 0.77 SD (TIMSS grade 8 science). The average of the differences comes out to 0.61 SD or, when averaging PISA, TIMSS, and PIRLS tests scores per year, per grade (e.g., PISA 2009 MAth + Reading), 0.59 SD. This is not largely different from the general intelligence difference reported by Roth et al. (2001).

      4. Note that controlling for SES you get significant gaps.

      http://commons.wikimedia.org/w.....cation.png

      1. Bill   12 years ago

        I teach lots of smart kids and lots that are less smart and how hard they work is still more important than how "smart" they are.

        1. vopiwobypacA3   12 years ago

          Scarlett. I agree that Angela`s artlclee is astonishing... yesterday I picked up a top of the range Ford Mustang from having earned $5249 this - five weeks past and-over, 10 grand last-munth. this is definitely the most rewarding Ive had. I actually started 9-months ago and immediately brought home at least $86 per-hour. I use the details on this website.... grand4.com
          (Go to site and open "Home" for details)

  2. A Serious Man   12 years ago

    ::lights 'American' signal::

    1. Almanian!   12 years ago

      Does that look something like this....?

      http://cache3.asset-cache.net/.....+JtsI007c=

      (SFW)

      1. Almanian!   12 years ago

        Aw, shit - I SF'ed it šŸ™ I haz a sad.

        No, I'm not going to try again...

  3. Heroic Mulatto   12 years ago

    So what exactly did Richwine's dissertation say? And is there any truth to it?

    For most of his analysis, he relies on the work of the University of Ulster psychologist Richard Lynn and the University of Tampere political scientist Tatu Vanhanen, which focuses on differential average IQs between nations.

    Well, there's his problem. For a long time now, it's been known that the data sets used in IQ and the Wealth of Nations are faulty to the point of academic fraud.

    That anyone saw Vanhanen and Lynn's data in Richwine's works cited and still published the dissertation is a scandal on par with the Skoal Affair.

    1. LTC(ret) John   12 years ago

      "a scandal on par with the Skoal Affair"

      Was that before or after the Redman Incident and the notorious Copenhagen Debacle?

      *ducks and runs from room*

      1. fish_remote   12 years ago

        You sir are my hero!

      2. Heroic Mulatto   12 years ago

        Sokal...goddamit....

        1. fish_remote   12 years ago

          Sokal...goddamit....

          I prefer the Skoal....I won't touch that jewish shit!

          1. fish_remote   12 years ago

            Okay well maybe a bottle of "HeBrew" on occasion!

    2. Jules   12 years ago

      Not really. The data used by Lynn & Vanhanen matches PISA and TIMMS results.

      http://www.technologyreview.co.....the-world/

      Also, it's increasingly used in economic papers and found to robustly predict a range of macro-economic outcomes.

    3. John C. Randolph   12 years ago

      I've had the good fortune to meet about a dozen people that are geniuses, and I don't mean that in the hollywood sense, they're actually scary-smart. Not a one of them places any weight at all on IQ tests.

      -jcr

  4. A Serious Man   12 years ago

    Is IQ even an accurate measure of intelligence? Even if it is it still does not negate the fact that people who learn certain skills and can do certain jobs have economic value.

    1. Mad Scientist   12 years ago

      The true measure of someone's IQ is whether they already know what the outcome will be, and if they stick to that narrative no matter what the outcome actually is.

      1. hotsy totsy   12 years ago

        ^^ Exactly the way the overwhelming majority of university presidents think! I think you're on to something!

    2. Heroic Mulatto   12 years ago

      It depends on what you mean by "intelligence". Many in the field of psychometrics posit that a factor known as "g" exists. The question remains if current tests can accurately identify and quantify g. Furthermore, there are scholars who argue for the existence of multiple g-factors, a camp of which I am squarely in.

      1. Sidd Finch   12 years ago

        Who are these scholars?

        1. Heroic Mulatto   12 years ago

          L.L. Thurstone and Howard Gardner are the two biggies.

          1. fish_remote   12 years ago

            Thurstone and Howard

            Why did I read that as Thurston Howell III at first?

            1. Jesus H. Christ   12 years ago

              low g-factor would be my guess?

              1. fish_remote   12 years ago

                I can't dispute this statement.

          2. Sidd Finch   12 years ago

            Gardner believes in "multiple intelligences" -- a vague, unscientific concept -- not multiple g-factors.

            1. Heroic Mulatto   12 years ago

              The irony is that many criticize the concept of a g-factor as "vague" and "unscientific".

              But yes, Gardner rejects standard models of psychometrics. He doesn't argue that MI theory is "scientific" in that with current technology it is something that cannot be quantified and tested in a falsifiable way. Gardner makes the same criticism toward those who argue that a g-factor exists.

              In my point of view, it makes sense that multiple g-factors could exist when one takes into account the modularity of the brain. I look forward to further advances in neuroscience that could help answer this question in one way or another.

              1. Sidd Finch   12 years ago

                As an engineer, I'm fine with 'works in practice but not in theory.' So if Gardner's work is helpful for teaching, and it appears to be, good for him. But all of his MI's are in fact g-loaded, so he hasn't presented a scientific argument against g.

                1. Heroic Mulatto   12 years ago

                  Reading my previous post, I see I made a typo. I should have said that "Gardner makes the same criticism toward those who argue that a single g-factor exists."

                  In short, Gardner believes that currently g cannot be accurately measured, but he does believe a g-factor exists and that it is probably a multiple g based on brain modularity.

                  For someone who argues against the existence of g, I direct you to the work of Peter Schonemann. Unfortunately, I can't find any of his articles on the Internet for free, but here is one abstract.

                  1. Sidd Finch   12 years ago

                    I'm not going to read any anti-heritability crap.

                    From a neuroscience standpoint, I'm dubious about the existence of g. For example, thinking speed and efficiency may be completely independent. Boom, multiple g's. From a practical standpoint, I don't see why that matters.

              2. SIV   12 years ago

                I look forward to further advances in neuroscience that could help answer this question in one way or another.

                Oh Jesus Fucking Christ. Why don't you examine the entrails of a goat and then make a guess?

      2. seguin   12 years ago

        The problem with g-factors is that they're hard to find. Spotting them is more art than science, and my own searches seem fruitless - I'm starting to think that they're fiction.

        Also, vagina.

        1. Heroic Mulatto   12 years ago

          Obviously, we need to invest more in Sybian technology.

          1. Jesus H. Christ   12 years ago

            SF'd that link. Seems to be a trend.

      3. DarrenM   12 years ago

        I tend to think there are different 'types' of intelligence. IQ measures only one type, and not necessarily all that accurately.

      4. shamalam   12 years ago

        I am in the "multiple G spots" camp.

        1. John C. Randolph   12 years ago

          I think I saw that movie. Wasn't Alison Hannigan in it?

          -jcr

    3. $park?   12 years ago

      "But what I do have are a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you."

      1. Almanian!   12 years ago

        - Warty

    4. Zeb   12 years ago

      I think it is in the sense that people who are very smart generally do well on IQ tests. But a lot of people are very good at some things and very bad at others, so I don't think that a single metric can really measure intelligence fully.

      So I guess IQ tests are good at measuring IQ, which is defined as the thing that IQ tests measure.

      1. $park?   12 years ago

        Sure, take an "unintelligent" person who is probably dyslexic and has real trouble with tests but can streamline the shit out of an electrical system.

        1. A Serious Man   12 years ago

          That's what I mean. If a Mexican immigrant can fix my car at a price I agree with should it matter if he can't solve figure out contrived logic problems?

          1. $park?   12 years ago

            I'm with you. The only thing that irritates me sometimes is the language barrier. I'm less inclined to hire a person to do a job, no matter how good they are, if I have trouble understanding what they're saying. I don't think people should be forced to learn the language, but it makes sense from an economic standpoint.

            1. Heroic Mulatto   12 years ago

              I don't think people should be forced to learn the language, but it makes sense from an economic standpoint.

              Absolutely. It makes sense from their perspective and from my perspective, a guy who studies how people learn language and how to help them learn it more effectively.

              1. T   12 years ago

                You're shilling for Big Language again, aren't you?

          2. DarrenM   12 years ago

            Ultimately, what matters is how much value a person can contribute meaning how much can he get someone else to pay for his skills/labor. IQ in and of itself doesn't mean much. There is a work ethic, imagination, initiative, creativity, etc. These are not measured in IQ tests.

      2. John C. Randolph   12 years ago

        a lot of people are very good at some things and very bad at others,

        Like how politicians are very good at making promises, but they suck at keeping them?

        -jcr

    5. Jules   12 years ago

      The problem is that the National Research Council found each low skill entrant has a net fiscal cost of $130,000 in todays dollars.

      When you factor in lower academic achievement levels after 4 generations (Ortiz & Telles) then you inevitably are going to have a less skilled workforce with lower per capita income.

    6. Rrabbit   12 years ago

      IQ tests do not measure intelligence. They measure "IQ".

  5. Mad Scientist   12 years ago

    Eugenics: it's a lefty tradition!

    1. sarcasmic   12 years ago

      Bring back phrenology!

      1. fish_remote   12 years ago

        Well sarc if they do that you might as well crown me King today....I got a melon like Charlie Brown!

        1. sarcasmic   12 years ago

          I've never been able to tell if I have a fat head or a thick skull. Either way, I wear a large hat.

          1. fish_remote   12 years ago

            I've never been able to tell if I have a fat head or a thick skull.

            The beauty of phrenology is that neither condition is disqualifying.

            You and I stand as gods before the reason commentariat!

            1. sarcasmic   12 years ago

              Aye! Bow to me you small-headed peons! On your knees!

          2. Jesus H. Christ   12 years ago

            I have a hard time finding hats that fit. My melon is extra large.

            1. Cdr Lytton   12 years ago

              Have you tried a crown of thorns? That might fit.

        2. Zeb   12 years ago

          Hmm. I come from a long line of people with large heads. Maybe I should get on on this Phrenology thing.

  6. fish_remote   12 years ago

    Are Hispanics Too Stupid to Become Americans?

    It is my sincere hope that hispanics are smarter than the T o n y s, shreekys and Stacks, Mary (each and every one of them) who already are U.S. citizens

    1. Zeb   12 years ago

      The proper question might be whether they are stupid enough to become Americans.

      1. Pro Libertate   12 years ago

        We do, after all, have standards.

      2. fish_remote   12 years ago

        The proper question might be whether they are stupid enough to become Americans.

        ...and if they are insufficiently stupid to qualify today, a rigorous program of HuffPo and Slate article comment section reading will correct this condition in as little as an afternoon.

        A miracle....really!

        1. $park?   12 years ago

          a rigorous program of HuffPo and Slate article comment section reading will correct this condition in as little as an afternoon.

          Either that or make them change their minds about moving to America.

          1. fish_remote   12 years ago

            Well if we are bound and determined to make them "Honey Boo Boo" viewers it's a risk we'll have to take!

            1. $park?   12 years ago

              Here Comes Honey Boo Boo, followed by Dance Moms, followed by Keeping up with the Kardashians. Let's brain drain the entire world.

              1. LTC(ret) John   12 years ago

                More like "brain vaporize".

        2. seguin   12 years ago

          Throw them into the Pit Of Youtube! The ones that survive will come out sideways.

  7. DJF   12 years ago

    I thought that Ron Bailey would be more interested in knowing if Hispanics were too stupid to become Libertarians or even Reason Magazine subscribers.

    So what is the answer, have Hispanics been flooding into Libertarian meetings and overwhelming the Reason Magazine subscriber hot line?

    1. Heroic Mulatto   12 years ago

      Well, we have Old Mexican, the Immaculate Trouser, and I'm sure many others. Not every poster wears their ethnic identity on their sleeve like I do, you know. šŸ™‚

      1. A Serious Man   12 years ago

        I'm half-Hispanic and have a Hispanic last name. Of course I easily 'pass' as white.

        1. Pro Libertate   12 years ago

          I'm married to a half-Colombian. She's pretty smart and, well, other good stuff.

        2. LTC(ret) John   12 years ago

          White Hispanic!!!

          /NYT

          1. fish_remote   12 years ago

            Who knew Trayvons killer frequented here?

            1. Zeb   12 years ago

              I think there might be some other white Hispanics in the world.

              1. fish_remote   12 years ago

                I'm not so sure....according to MSNBC they've apprehended the aforementioned.....so it's safe to return to your homes citizens.

              2. Pro Libertate   12 years ago

                Out shooting innocent black toddlers? Jesus, really?

              3. DarrenM   12 years ago

                I think there might be some other white Hispanics in the world.

                There was a revolutionary war hero in Bolivia with my last name. It's a very Irish name. Incrediblly, there were emmigrants to other countries than the U.S.

                1. mgd   12 years ago

                  Bernardo O'Higgins is a national hero in Chile for his role in Chile winning independence. Some people's reaction to learning that is just priceless. It's like they expect every surname south of the Rio Grande to be "Martinez" or "Rodriguez".

            2. A Serious Man   12 years ago

              Trayvon's killer had a white last name.

              1. fish_remote   12 years ago

                See....RACISS!

              2. Heroic Mulatto   12 years ago

                THE HUN IS NOT WHITE!

              3. Pro Libertate   12 years ago

                So did Trayvon, you know.

  8. Pro Libertate   12 years ago

    I have a solution that eschews all of this other nonsense. A cover charge:

    13. To the extent that bibertarian/welfare policies remain in place despite my best efforts, charge a per-person cover charge to each country that "allows" its citizens to illegally emigrate to the United States. However, the first drink is on the house and all domestic drafts are $2.00, call brands are $5.00. Complimentary buffet available from 6:00 - 9:00 p.m. in most states.

    1. Paul.   12 years ago

      Who's the bouncer?

      1. Pro Libertate   12 years ago

        Some guy named Ben. Big black guy. He's actually nice, but he looks really scary.

        1. DarrenM   12 years ago

          looks really scary

          Primary qualification. If you look scary enough, you may not have to get physical.

  9. tarran   12 years ago

    Who gives a shit?!?

    Let's say, ad arguendo, the distribution of IQ's of native born americans shifts so that the average goes down. So what?!? Does this mean we are harmed? No, because society will adjust its customs, expectations and products to accommodate any arbitrary intelligence curve, including the one we got now.

    The arguments that particular lines drawn in the ground magically have importance that allows third parties to override the business decisions of people on opposite sides of the line inevitably turn out to tell us more about the superstitions of the maker than pontifications on any other issue, other than maybe sex.

    1. $park?   12 years ago

      because society will adjust its customs, expectations and products to accommodate any arbitrary intelligence curve, including the one we got now.

      Just for the sake of argument, is it really a good thing if this always has to happen? How much efficiency does a constant retooling rob from a system?

      1. tarran   12 years ago

        Society is constantly retooling anyway, so I don't see it as a significant cost. Hell ending slavery was pretty disruptive, and yet I don't think anyone would argue that the social 'retooling' that ending it would have required justified prolonging it one microsecond.

        1. $park?   12 years ago

          That's a fair point. I think another downside, though, is the general apathy created in more intelligent people created by the constant "dumbing down" of society.

          1. tarran   12 years ago

            But it's not.

            Two hundred years ago, people used to entertain themselves throwing crap at people pilloried in the stocks. Now they watch Honey Boo Boo.

            1. $park?   12 years ago

              It may not actually be overall, but you can't deny that that feeling is there. It just seems to me that the lowbrow/highbrow divide is a little more pronounced now than it used to be. And that's most likely just a function of there being millions more people alive now than there ever were.

              1. tarran   12 years ago

                I used to think so too, but the more I've thought about it, the more I've questioned that.

                All we know about the past is really the product of written history, basically the output of the high-brows of the era.

                This really introduces a massive sampling bias.

                1. Heroic Mulatto   12 years ago

                  Of the graffiti found on the walls of Pompeii, at least 90 percent* of it is dick jokes, around 7 percent are political advertisements, and around 3 percent makes fun of Christians and Jews.

                  * Numbers pulled via rectum

                  1. $park?   12 years ago

                    Of the graffiti found on the walls of Pompeii

                    My wife and I went to Portland, ME on vacation last year. One day as we were walking we found an old building that had graffiti all over the side. There was one sentence that was horribly misspelled and about six others around it with corrections and chastisements for the horrible misspelling.

                  2. np   12 years ago

                    That may not be so far off given the reality:
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.....erculaneum (NSFW.. maybe)

                    If anyone is looking for some tender love in this town, keep in mind that here all the girls are very friendly (loose translation).

                    Other inscriptions reveal some pricing information for various services (for the gals too)
                    Athenais 2 As, Sabina 2 As (CIL IV, 4150), The house slave Logas, 8 As (CIL IV, 5203) or Maritimus licks your vulva for 4 As. He is ready to serve virgins as well. (CIL IV, 8940).

                2. $park?   12 years ago

                  This really introduces a massive sampling bias.

                  Sure it does. But that the point I was trying to make about population increase. The more people there are in the world, the more visual percentages will be. 20% of 1,000,000 is less than 20% of 330,000,000 even though the percentage is the same.

            2. LTC(ret) John   12 years ago

              Touche!

    2. Sidd Finch   12 years ago

      Does this mean we are harmed? No, because society will adjust its customs, expectations and products to accommodate any arbitrary intelligence curve, including the one we got now.

      If the composition of a country doesn't affect an individual's income, why do so many people want to immigrate?

      1. tarran   12 years ago

        Income is predicated on the availibility of capital goods, not the fractional changes in the intelligence of the producer.

        Moreover, most people aren't coming here solely to get rich, they are also looking for security and stability as well.

        And a stable, free society provides the institutions and opportunities for all these things.

        1. Sidd Finch   12 years ago

          Garrett Jones makes a compelling case that average national IQ is a much better predictor of an individual's income than his own IQ.

    3. Jules   12 years ago

      Well, the problem is that you get a less skilled workforce, higher welfare dependency and crime (all are linked to lower population cognitive ability).

      Also, you will get increased demands for special set asides to colleges and for faculty appointments because you will have a disproportionate amount from certain populations with higher average scores. So you undermine attempts at having a meritocracy, eg. MIT has to change it's hiring practices to get more faculty from certain groups apparently.

      http://www.boston.com/news/loc.....s_lacking/

  10. Fluffy   12 years ago

    I was in a fast food restaurant in a Massachusetts town two hours ago, and a very nicely-dressed couple was in the booth in front of mine, speaking Spanish to each other.

    When they were done and got up to leave, one of the two (an elderly woman) stopped and took some napkins from her tray and wiped off the table, so that it wouldn't be dirty for whoever used it next.

    After they left, the Swiss Family Methfreak wandered in, with their white skins, their native American English, their People of Walmart clothes and their obesity.

    I have to tell you, the Spanish speaking people were a lot closer to me in culture than the white folks.

    1. sarcasmic   12 years ago

      It's more likely the case that she has worked at a restaurant before.

      When I worked as a waiter I could tell when I was serving people with restaurant experience by the fact that they would pre-bus (stack up the plates, silver, and trash) the table. I do the same thing.

      1. $park?   12 years ago

        Huh, I've never worked in a restaurant before but I do that all the time too. It just seems like common courtesy to me, especially if the place is really busy.

        1. Fluffy   12 years ago

          Yeah, she just seemed like the sort of person who was worried that someone might think she was a slob if she left the table dirty.

          But you make a good point. She could have been a former waitress, too.

          1. Paul.   12 years ago

            Former waitress or not, she's just good people.

        2. sarcasmic   12 years ago

          Oh yeah? Well a true pre-busser will clear all the trash and silver onto the top plate so the ones that are stacked have nothing on them and thus not a leaning stack ready to fall on the floor!
          Tell me tough guy! Do you stack cleared plates so they don't teeter, or do you just put the next plate on top of the previous one's silver and food? Which is it! Come on!

          1. $park?   12 years ago

            Well a true pre-busser will clear all the trash and silver onto the top plate so the ones that are stacked have nothing on them and thus not a leaning stack ready to fall on the floor!

            Yep, my wife and I collect up all the empty dishes and stack them largest on bottom to smallest on top then all the silverware and napkins on the top of the heap. We also try to put the dirtiest plates on top so they don't end up with crap all over the bottom.

            1. sarcasmic   12 years ago

              We also try to put the dirtiest plates on top so they don't end up with crap all over the bottom.

              That doesn't really matter. Their next stop is the dish pit. Though the thought is nice.

              1. $park?   12 years ago

                I just know that when I grab a plate I hate getting crap all over my hands because it was stuck to the bottom of the plate. If they're just dumping a bucket into a sink and not touching the plates anyway, well it doesn't take any extra effort on my part to arrange them anyway.

                1. sarcasmic   12 years ago

                  The plates are going to the dishwasher who better not care about getting crap on his hands or he needs a different job.

              2. LTC(ret) John   12 years ago

                2 years in HS working at a Ponderosa Steakhouse - I do the same pre-bussing thing.

      2. Zeb   12 years ago

        My wife does that all the time. I, on the other hand, am of the opinion that not having to do that sort of thing is what I am paying for when I go to a restaurant that has table service. My brother is even more extreme, even though he works in the restaurant industry (or perhaps because he does). Every time I go out to eat with him, he looks like he is just barely restraining himself from berating the server for all the things they are doing wrong.

        1. sarcasmic   12 years ago

          Your brother sounds like a jerk. I'm a pretty tolerant customer. A server has to be pretty terrible to get less than a 20% tip from me.

          1. Zeb   12 years ago

            If he actually berated them, he'd be a jerk. He doesn't refuse to tip or anything like that. He just has high standards, which he holds himself to as well in his professional life.

            I've never worked in a restaurant, so I probably lack sympathy, but I think that if I am paying good money for food I could prepare better myself, I should at least get a decent level of service.

            I don't go to restaurants very often.

            1. sarcasmic   12 years ago

              If he actually berated them, he'd be a jerk.

              Fair enough.

              if I am paying good money for food I could prepare better myself

              I know what you mean. I look at it as paying for the convenience of not having to do the work or the cleanup, and not having my fridge cluttered with several odd ingredients that are for that one dish that tend to rot before they get used in something else.

              I don't go to restaurants very often.

              I hear that. Usually if I eat out it's only because we're out all day and don't have much other option.

            2. $park?   12 years ago

              not having to do that sort of thing is what I am paying for when I go to a restaurant that has table service

              I'm fidgety so clearing up the table gives me something to do with my hands while I'm sitting there anyway. After I've wadded and unwadded and rewadded the straw wrapper so many times, it loses its playfulness.

    2. $park?   12 years ago

      So you're not a Real American then?

    3. Pro Libertate   12 years ago

      There is a kind of weird meme going around about how useless just standard Americans are, which is bullshit, too. If we were that far gone, we'd have collapsed already.

      1. Fluffy   12 years ago

        I think what is happening is that affluent Americans have moved so much of their shopping online, and do so much of what's left at higher-end stores like Whole Foods or specialty stores, that when you have occasion to walk into a general purpose store there's nobody there except EBT card purchasers.

        That makes people think there's no one left in the world but People of WalMart, the same way that people who live in cities think all the green space in the country is gone. What's that fallacy called again? I can't remember any more.

        1. Pro Libertate   12 years ago

          I see it at Walmart, of course, and at some other places, but not that much. Like Target usually isn't that distressing.

        2. Paul.   12 years ago

          that people who live in cities think all the green space in the country is gone. What's that fallacy called again? I can't remember any more.

          Stupid. It's called Stupid.

        3. Sidd Finch   12 years ago

          availability bias?

    4. RightNut   12 years ago

      After they left, the Swiss Family Methfreak wandered in, with their white skins, their native American English, their People of Walmart clothes and their obesity.

      Not sure if its common slang but the colloquial term is Mass hicks. I used to have similar experiences when I worked as a clerk.

      1. Heroic Mulatto   12 years ago

        Are you sure they weren't Swamp Yankees?

      2. $park?   12 years ago

        I've never heard "Mass hicks" or "Swiss Family Methfreak." We usually just call them white trash out here in Western Mass.

        1. RightNut   12 years ago

          Its another world.

        2. sarcasmic   12 years ago

          Here in Maine we just call them massholes.

          1. Paul.   12 years ago

            Every country has a city they make fun of. In America, they make fun of Cleveland. In Russia, we make fun of Cleveland.

    5. OldMexican   12 years ago

      Re: Fluffy,

      When they were done and got up to leave, one of the two (an elderly woman) stopped and took some napkins from her tray and wiped off the table, so that it wouldn't be dirty for whoever used it next.

      Interesting! I tend to do that - clean up after myself and my family - especially because my children eat like baby chickens!

      And I have seen what you talk about, but the slobbish behavior is not limited to overweight whites only.... and I'll say no more.

      1. Jesus H. Christ   12 years ago

        We like Chinese food. When my kids were small, the table and surrounding area looked like a wedding had just taken place. Unfortunately, we did not usually have a broom with us.

      2. vopiwobypacA3   12 years ago

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    6. HazelMeade   12 years ago

      After they left, the Swiss Family Methfreak wandered in, with their white skins, their native American English, their People of Walmart clothes and their obesity.

      How can you be an obese methfreak?

      1. Fluffy   12 years ago

        A good point.

        They probably weren't meth freaks, since they were definitely fat.

        But you know that sickly, "no teef lef' in mah mouf", destroyed-skin look that meth freaks have? They had that look, too. Just with fat bodies.

        Am I a bad person because I judged them for the way that they looked?

        1. $park?   12 years ago

          Am I a bad person because I judged them for the way that they looked?

          Yes. But the fact that they acted like slobs too at least justified your initial bad decision.

  11. sgs   12 years ago

    I thought the deal was that you come here and build a life, even if you're broke, stupid, fat, ugly, or whatever.

    If they can build a life, and get along, why is their intelligence an issue?

    1. Mad Scientist   12 years ago

      Because, "I got mine, fuck you, that's why."

    2. sarcasmic   12 years ago

      That was the case back when it was a free country. Now a person must ask permission and take orders to be allowed to engage in economic activity. Free enterprise is dead, along with the American Dream.

      1. Heroic Mulatto   12 years ago

        Yep. "Conservatives" aren't above social engineering.

        1. sarcasmic   12 years ago

          I don't think conservatives are for social engineering as much as they are standard politicians who give out favors to their rent-seeking cronies.

    3. Sidd Finch   12 years ago

      If they can build a life, and get along, why is their intelligence an issue?

      IQ is a the best predictor of 'building a life' and 'getting along.' If IQ were uncorrelated with those things, nobody would care about it.

      1. Fluffy   12 years ago

        Actually, IQ correlates with upper levels of success, but if we're talking about "getting along", that correlates more strongly with non-IQ personality traits like diligence and the willingness to show up.

        1. Sidd Finch   12 years ago

          And both of those are strongly correlated with IQ.

          1. Fluffy   12 years ago

            Citation please.

            1. Sidd Finch   12 years ago

              IQ is well-known to be strongly predictive of almost every kind of good outcome. You need to present evidence that 'diligence' and 'willingness to show up' are unique.

              1. Redmanfms   12 years ago

                IQ is well-known to be strongly predictive of almost every kind of good outcome.

                So, no cite then?

                1. Sidd Finch   12 years ago

                  link

        2. Paul.   12 years ago

          that correlates more strongly with non-IQ personality traits like diligence and the willingness to show up.

          Like your average Employee of the Month.

      2. sgs   12 years ago

        "IQ is a the best predictor of 'building a life' and 'getting along.'"

        No, actually, it really isn't.

        In fact, IQ often correlates with much higher reports of dissatisfaction and social isolation.

        1. Sidd Finch   12 years ago

          If it isn't, what is?

          1. Steve G   12 years ago

            I've read EQ is more meaningful.

      3. sgs   12 years ago

        And more to the point, that's totally irrelevant.

        Even if IQ correlated with 'building a life' and 'getting along' which it doesn't, we are results oriented.

  12. RightNut   12 years ago

    Wasn't their a study a few years ago that showed that groups normally thought of as smart(Jews, east Asians) actually have similar IQs to everyone else, but that the strong tradition of education in those groups was worth 4-6 IQ points?

    I'd google it but kinda busy at the moment.

    1. Sidd Finch   12 years ago

      no

  13. Steve G   12 years ago

    "Group differences in intelligence do exist," he writes, but "that does not mean that any individual should ever be judged on the basis of group membership." This exactly. Even if you believe the whole bell curve stuff, it leads to a 'so what?' moment since you never know if you're dealing w/ an average [insert race], a std dev up or a std dev down. Judge the individual...

    1. sarcasmic   12 years ago

      If forced to choose between someone with a low IQ with common sense or a liberal with a high IQ... That's a no-brainer.

      1. $park?   12 years ago

        I see what you did there.

    2. Gorilla tactics   12 years ago

      Exactly,its just another bullshit abstract aggregation of stats like everything else. And the groups themselves move up over time as they get wealthier.

      Many 'smart" groups were actually not that smart in their own countries, and they had low IQs when they came to the US, a few decades or so later they were higher than the average. The whole "Is it genetic or environmental" false dichotomy is pure bullshit-the answer is that they are both so intertwined that it is impossible to say where one begins and where one ends. Wealthier societies or cultures produce enough wealth to have people commit time to engage in abstract reasoning, a lot of the FLynn effect is based on that-IQ is downstream from wealth creation because the wealth liberates people to engage in more mentally demanding exercises.

  14. Heroic Mulatto   12 years ago

    At this point, I would like to nominate Richwine for "Most Likely to Spend His Weekends Wearing a Poet's Shirt at a Renaissance Fair".

    1. kinnath   12 years ago

      Tunic and tankard of mead.

  15. HazelMeade   12 years ago

    Bryan Caplan over at EconLog had the best comment on this subject:

    "In a just world, however, researchers would be fired for arguing that people with below-average IQs should be denied their basic human right to accept a job offer from any willing employer."

    http://econlog.econlib.org/arc.....world.html

    1. fish_remote   12 years ago

      Not sure that merely offering an opinion or investigating an issue should ever get anyone fired from anything.

      1. HazelMeade   12 years ago

        Well, supposing we're firing people for having abhorrent views, which view is really more abhorrent? (A) Arguing that differences in intelligence exist, or (B) arguing that differences in intelligence should determine what your human rights are?

        1. fish_remote   12 years ago

          arguing that differences in intelligence should determine what your human rights are?

          I'm not sure it can be argued that admission to a nation state is a human right. They already are in a nation state if I'm not mistaken.

          1. Calidissident   12 years ago

            If you're talking about citizenship, yeah you could make that argument. But if we're just talking about freedom to move, buy/rent property, work a certain job (and of course all these freedoms also include the freedom of the people on the other end of the transaction), I don't think that holds water

      2. DarrenM   12 years ago

        Not sure that merely offering an opinion or investigating an issue should ever get anyone fired from anything.

        If we wanted you to have an opinion, we would have given you one!

      3. highnumber   12 years ago

        Not sure that merely offering an opinion or investigating an issue should ever get anyone fired from anything.

        Pretty sure that offering certain opinions should get people fired. One has the right to the opinion but not the right to the job, right?

    2. Sidd Finch   12 years ago

      http://www.bcaplan.com/caricature.jpg

    3. Bill Dalasio   12 years ago

      Excellent, so how soon can I start hiring retards to work in my monocle factory for a Happy Meal a day?

      1. Almanian!   12 years ago

        When you can pry them from the clutches of MY gold Goblet manufacturing facility...slowpoke!

        MWAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA!

    4. KPres   12 years ago

      This is why I hate weak-kneed, pussified libertarians like Caplan. What he should have written was this:

      "In a just world, however, researchers would be fired for arguing that people with below-average IQs should be denied their basic human right to accept a job offer from any willing employer."

    5. Hawk Spitui   12 years ago

      Are we talking Bryan Caplan of the Bubble here?

    6. Jules   12 years ago

      Heh @ that being a basic human right. What if multinational corporations wanted to hire loads of below minimum wage Palestinians to work in Israel?

  16. Stormy Dragon   12 years ago

    Are Hispanics Too Stupid to Become Americans?

    Considering how dumb the general public is, I'm not sure how you could possibly be too stupid to become American.

    1. Dunphy (the real one)   12 years ago

      Yet again, reasonoid elitism. A strong similarity I constantly see between liberals and H&R Denizens - putting the American people down, calling them stupid, etc.

      1. GILMORE   12 years ago

        here here!

        Europeans are at least as equally stupid!! Have you ever read comments on YouTube?

        1. Fluffy   12 years ago

          Our problem is that most comments from Europeans sound only as stupid as American comments...and those Europeans aren't writing in their native languages.

          Or in some cases, native alphabets.

          If you use somebody else's language and alphabet and eke out a tie, that's pretty significant.

      2. Fluffy   12 years ago

        Dude, I think it's beyond dispute that some significant percentage of people are stupid.

        There's nothing wrong with believing that elites exist. It's only morally problematic to believe that elites should rule. Or that they should possess special legal privileges.

        1. Dunphy (the real one)   12 years ago

          I think thats ridiculous. Most people are not "dumb" or "stupid". I realize that's a reasonoid sacred truth, the typical "90% of the populace are stupid" bla bla.

          I've spent too much time dealing with average people, from trailer parks to mansions, in all sorts of situations, to buy into the "people are dumb". I think it's the kind of dismissive elitism that hurts the libertarian cause (nobody likes a snob) as well as just plain being factual nonsense. The average american may not be as educated as you are, or as wonkish on topic a, b, or x. But that's a far cry from saying they are stupid. I love and respect people in general and I don't think the average american is stupid. I see tons of evidence to the contrary.

          1. Almanian!   12 years ago

            I've spent too much time dealing with average people, from trailer parks to mansions, in all sorts of situations, to buy into the idea that? "people are not dumb".

            YMMV

            This is why the n=1 of "my anecdote is" is interesting, but not much more.

          2. darius404   12 years ago

            the kind of dismissive elitism

            You mean like calling something a "reasonoid sacred truth"? The dismissive elitism is telling.

            1. Dunphy (the real one)   12 years ago

              lol. Try a dictionary. Saying the American people are dumb IS dimissive elitism. Pointing it out is not.

              1. darius404   12 years ago

                Being a self-righteous bastard over a few people disagreeing with you IS dismissive elitism you hypocritical fuck. You can never just SAY something, you always have to show what a shining light of civilization and reason you are compared to the unenlightened sorts you descend from above to argue with.

                1. Restoras   12 years ago

                  darius, if you could shoot him with impunity like he can do to you, you'd be the same way. Just sayin'...

                2. sarcasmic   12 years ago

                  you always have to show what a shining light of civilization and reason you are compared to the unenlightened sorts you descend from above to argue with.

                  Of course he does. He's a cop. That's what they do. That's why it's unwise to argue to a cop's face unless you want him to break yours. They're always right, and if you disagree you're asking for violence.

          3. Stormy Dragon   12 years ago

            Intelligence is distributed according to a left bounded gaussian curve (there is a hard minimum, but no hard maximum on the levels of possible intelligence). The median of such a distribution is always less than the mean, so it necessarily follows that most people have below average intelligence.

        2. Ted S.   12 years ago

          Dude, I think it's beyond dispute that some significant percentage of people are stupid.

          They're called "police". šŸ˜‰

          [/sarcasm]

      3. LTC(ret) John   12 years ago

        Calling them "civilians"...

      4. Almanian!   12 years ago

        derp

        thanks for commenting, officer einstein.

        1. Dunphy (the real one)   12 years ago

          lol. Unlike the others here, I'm not the one spouting elitist nonsense about how the average american is dumb. I respect the intelligence of the average american.

          1. Almanian!   12 years ago

            And of course no on else does, because of a oomment on a blog.

            Thank you officer concern troll.

            Srsly - have a good weekend, dunphy šŸ™‚

            1. Dunphy (the real one)   12 years ago

              It's not a concern troll thing. It's a constantly repeated comment here and I think it says a lot about intellectual immaturity, and a lot of other insecurities "Americans are dumb" bla bla bla.

              1. Almanian!   12 years ago

                whatever

                Have a good weekend anyway

          2. Restoras   12 years ago

            Right. You only believe in elitism for the jackboots in blue.

            Fuck off.

      5. Zeb   12 years ago

        It's not just Americans. Everyone's stupid. And I, at least, am semi-joking when I say that. The "everyone who disagrees with me must be stupid"
        thing is annoying and false. But on the other hand, someone with a 100 IQ isn't all that smart. And half of people are below that.

        I think that people in general are great. That doesn't mean they are all terribly smart. Pointing out that a relatively small portion of the population is very intelligent is not "putting the American people down" per se.

        1. Dunphy (the real one)   12 years ago

          Except that's moving the goalposts. Saying they are not "very intelligent" i s not the same thing as saying they are "dumb' or "stupid" which is the claim CONSTANTLY repeated here

          just like DU.

          1. Zeb   12 years ago

            Nah. I'm just erecting my own goalposts. You don't get to tell me which goalposts to use.

            1. darius404   12 years ago

              You don't get to tell me which goalposts to use.

              But I do. QUIDDITCH ONLY! And not any of that sissy "on-the-ground" stuff. You'll have to find some REAL flying broomsticks.

          2. $park?   12 years ago

            Average Americans aren't stupid, they're, by definition, average. 50% of the population (I'll go 45% if you want to included 5% on either side of the bell in the average) are below average. To someone that is significantly above average, the below average are, in fact, dumb. That doesn't make them horrible people, they're just below average.

            1. sarcasmic   12 years ago

              To someone that is significantly above average, the below average are, in fact, dumb.

              Exactly. Since the average cop has a barely above average IQ, the below average don't appear as dumb as they would to the average libertarian since the gap is much smaller.

              1. Steve G   12 years ago

                Wait, wasn't there story recently about having a high IQ was a bar to police employment???

        2. darius404   12 years ago

          I think the real issue here is one of language. "Stupid", "dumb", "idiot", have all gained a sort of slang meanings of "foolish" and "incompetent", in addition to the meaning about "intelligence". People all over the place can be incredibly foolish, regardless of their intelligence. Supposedly "smart" people can say some of the "dumbest" things, and as general mental competence comprises both "intelligence" (or multiple "intelligences", maybe) and "wisdom", we've come to call people who act in foolish ways or say foolish things things as "stupid", when the officially-recognized meaning isn't always what we mean

          1. Sidd Finch   12 years ago

            Supposedly "smart" people can say some of the "dumbest" things

            I think really smart people are the only ones capable of saying the dumbest things. Stupid people have all kinds of stupid ideas about society and human nature, but none of those ideas are as breathtakingly stupid as Marxism.

          2. Ted S.   12 years ago

            I think the real issue here is one of language.

            There's a big difference between a wise man and a wise guy.

        3. DarrenM   12 years ago

          Yes. 80% of people of of below average intelligence, or something...

      6. Stormy Dragon   12 years ago

        BTW, does anyone else remember when the Right used to celebrate individual talent and competence? Of all the things I hate the Tea Party for is corrupting the right with this BS populist celebration of lowest common denominator.

        It's not even feel-good "everyone is equally important" crap you see on the left. A lot of times it seems like they think that the less idea you have what you're talking about makes you even MORE important your voice becomes, because demanding expertise and competence is just the way "the elite" keeps "real americans" down.

        1. Generic Stranger   12 years ago

          It's more team bullshit. The progressives staked out their claim on "intellectualism" (which, as practiced by progressives, isn't all that intelligent, but that's a different rant), so the conservatives reacted with anti-intellectualism. Had the conservatives invaded the higher education system and staked their claim to intellectualism first, then it would be the progtards who'd be the anti-intellectuals.

        2. VG Zaytsev   12 years ago

          Of all the things I hate the Tea Party for is corrupting the right with this BS populist celebration of lowest common denominator.

          Fuck you elistist douche.

          What the tea party hates is faux intellectuals that have seized control of academia.

          The dumbest fucks in America can be found on universities. In and out of the faculty.

          1. Stormy Dragon   12 years ago

            Except they aren't fighting bad liberal intellectuals with better conservative intellectuals. They're fighting bad liberal intellectuals by telling us that "common sense" and "listening to your gut" trumps actual expertise.

            1. VG Zaytsev   12 years ago

              Yeah, this is just a continuation of the decades old socialist meme that the left is smart and the right is dumb

              The truth is that people at all levels on the right use more intelligent arguments, evince more intellectual curiosity and are more receptive to new information than people on the left. George Bush was demonstrably more intelligent than John Kerry or Al Gore and Palin is more intelligent than Obama; but the media driven impressions held by most people are exactly opposite of that reality.

              You are demonstrating the same lazy thinking of your leftist comrades in equating higher ed credentials with actual expertise and intelligence. It's become apparent to everyone outside your bubble that most credentialed intellectuals are the stupidest people in America.

  17. Rasilio   12 years ago

    Lol most Americans are too stupid to be Americans. Just look at who we vote for and what we watch on TV

  18. Drake   12 years ago

    What the hell, we let in my ancestors - Mics, Wops, Krauts, Polaks - all the scum and rejects of the Old World. We even forcibly imported Africans too stupid to avoid slavers.

    What difference at this point does it make?

    1. A Serious Man   12 years ago

      The more I think about it the more I realize that my ancestors on both sides of my family were here before most of y'all. French-Canadians that arrived in the 1607 and Mestizo Mexicans.

      1. Drake   12 years ago

        I'm supposedly Cherokee or Chickasaw or something - no matter what Ancestry.com says.

  19. Dunphy (the real one)   12 years ago

    *if* hispanics from mexico who were illegally immigrating had lower IQ's on average, it would probably be attributable to malnutritition, especially during youth. It's been shown that malnutrition stunts growth - both physiologically and mentally. I would assume the Mexicans that are crossing our border illegally come primarily from the poorer income quintiles, who would be more likely to have poor diets. Not saying that his IQ theory is correct, but lack of decent nutrition could certainly account for SOME IQ differences, regardless of race.

    1. Dunphy (the real one)   12 years ago

      e.g.

      http://www.bioline.org.br/pdf?rb07013

      "Malnutrition leads to indirect losses in productivity from poor cognitive
      development and schooling. Low birthweight may reduce a person's
      IQ by 5 percentage points, stunting may reduce it by 5 to 11 points, and
      iodine deficiency by as much as 10 to 15 points.14 Iron deficiency anemia consistently
      reduces performance on tests of mental abilities (including IQ) by
      8 points or 0.5 to 1.5 standard deviations in children.15
      Growth failure before the age of two, anemia during the first two years
      of life, and iodine deficiency in the womb can have profound and irreversible
      effects on a child's ability to learn.16 Malnutrition in Zimbabwe
      has been calculated to reduce lifetime earnings by 12 percent because of its
      effect on schooling.17"

      http://siteresources.worldbank.....egyCh1.pdf

      1. Dunphy (the real one)   12 years ago

        stunting 5 to 11 points. THAT is statistically significant IQ changes

        oh, also

        http://www.unicef.org/sowc98/panel3.htm

    2. Jules   12 years ago

      Except after 4 generations you still get a major gap (Ortiz & Telles).

      Also, controlling for SES you get gaps too.

      http://commons.wikimedia.org/w.....cation.png

  20. GILMORE   12 years ago

    Ronald Bailey Asks If Hispanics Are Too Stupid to Become Americans

    I forget taking the "Test to Prove Competence at Being American"

    Was it the one with the keg-funnel-headstand thing?

    1. Almanian!   12 years ago

      WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! PARTYYYYYYY....

      *BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARF*

      w...wwwwooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

  21. Almanian!   12 years ago

    I'm afraid of Americans
    I'm afraid of the world
    I'm afraid I can't help it
    I'm afraid I can't

  22. Almanian!   12 years ago

    PS Sorry if this was upthread ad I missed it, but I gotta say....

    EYYYY TUKK RRRR JERRBSZZ!

  23. Acosmist   12 years ago

    You're seriously comparing fully nourished Mexicans to undernourished Irish.

    So the libertarians join the War on Science. Greaaaaaat.

    1. Heroic Mulatto   12 years ago

      The average Irishman was undernourished in 1972?

      1. Ted S.   12 years ago

        Gallons and gallons of whiskey and pounds of potatoes constitutes good nourishment? šŸ™‚

    2. Steve G   12 years ago

      undernourished Irish: sober??

  24. Dakotian   12 years ago

    "Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential" - Winston Churchill
    Intelligence helps but I have seen a lot of lazy smart people. I also have friends who barely graduated high school who later became very successful.
    The truly dangerous are the people who know they are intelligent. This is the group where our "Top Men" come from.

    1. $park?   12 years ago

      The truly dangerous are the people who know they are intelligent.

      Don't forget the group of people who are so dumb they think they're smart. I think they turn into top level lackeys.

  25. G-dub   12 years ago

    Law enforcement agencies are sorely in need of more stupid people. I say let them in. Send us your dim, your slow, your bungling morons yearning to drool free.

  26. DarrenM   12 years ago

    If we treated people as individuals instead of members of special groups, IQ would be irrelevant.

  27. AlgerHiss   12 years ago

    People streaming up from South and Central America are not your "freedom and liberty" types: They have no problem with big, mammoth government.

    They'll wear Che Guevera tee-shirts to their Shining Path meetings with glee.

    1. Sevo   12 years ago

      AlgerHiss| 5.17.13 @ 4:03PM |#
      "People streaming up from South and Central America are not your "freedom and liberty" types: They have no problem with big, mammoth government.
      They'll wear Che Guevera tee-shirts to their Shining Path meetings with glee."{

      Most voters in San Francisco do exactly the same; do you have a point?

  28. Ted Levy   12 years ago

    Are Hispanics Too Stupid to Become Americans?

    Or too smart...?

    1. KPres   12 years ago

      Well, they have been immigrating less recently. Seems they're smart enough to recognize the budding dystopia this country is becoming.

  29. KPres   12 years ago

    Who cares about their IQ? The only condition should be their SQ (statist-quotient).

  30. Rufus J. Firefly   12 years ago

    http://www.photius.com/ranking.....ranks.html

    http://talk.collegeconfidentia.....untry.html

    Those rankings have it different from the article.

    Not that I know anything about this sort of stuff.

  31. Rufus J. Firefly   12 years ago

    A couple more.

    http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/NationalIQs.aspx

    http://www.eutimes.net/2009/11/iq-by-country/

  32. Sevo   12 years ago

    Hey, I'm just here to see if 'Murcan has checked in.
    I looked up-thread a good long ways; did I miss him? Pretty sure he'd have something to say about this if he was smart enough to find the thread...

  33. Flemur   12 years ago

    Congrats on actually reading what Richwine wrote and not getting a case of the vapors, like a couple of other Reason authors.

    "Perlman concludes that "Mexican economic assimilation may take more time?four or five generations rather than three or four." Possibly so."

    I love it when people predict the future, because it's already been that long and that future is already past:

    From G Cochran, who was funded by Unz:
    "Is a book (Generations of Exclusion) by two UCLA sociologists, Vila Ortiz and Edward E Telles, published in 2008. It originated in a fair-sized data set (1576 people) collected in 1965, which was rediscovered in 1992. The original respondents and their adult children were interviewed. It shows quite clearly that although second-generation Mexican-Americans averaged more education and higher SES than the first generation, presumably because they knew English, there was no further improvement in the third and fourth generations. The gap remained substantial: the fourth generation had a college completion rate of 6%, compared to a rate of 35% for whites of that same era.

    Which is pretty much what you see in New Mexico too, except that here we're often talking about the fifth, sixth, and seventh generation living in the US."

  34. Flemur   12 years ago

    ...continued...
    ("No more than 2 links"? That's bogus)

    Also cochran, response to Unz:
    http://www.theamericanconservative.co.....-response/
    "In each case, look for a few crumbs of data that support your thesis and ignore all the rest."

    More Cochran on Unz:
    Of course I banned him, and good riddance. He's a waste of time. As a friend with a fair amount of experience said, Ron is impervious to reason.
    I mean, he comes with up wrong ideas about everything, and then he goes on and on forever, arguing like a possessed lawyer. Who needs that?"

    hbdchick.wordpress.com/
    2012/08/06/
    the-case-of-the-missing-irish-iq-data/
    "the case of the missing irish iq data"

    occidentalascent.wordpress.com/
    2012/07/26/
    hispanic-performance-by-generation/
    "On re-analysis, Ron Unz's claim concerning the difference in the GSS sample was upheld; this claim, though, was contradicted by all other samples." Two of the studies, the GSS and Add health, allowed Hispanic scores to be decomposed by nationality. For both studies I compared the Hispanics (aggregated) and Mexican scores. For third generation individuals no significant differences was found; this wasn't surprising as Mexicans constitute over 2/3rds of third+ generation Hispanics."

    1. Sevo   12 years ago

      Yes, Flemur, I see references to one link or another and a bunch of conditional clauses, but WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY?

  35. Jules   12 years ago

    The analysis by Unz doesn't withstand scrutiny unfortunately.

    1. a statistically significant correlation can be found between birth year and scores for some of the nations which Lynn has provided data for, but Ireland, at this time, is not one of them.

    2. There is no evidence of a Hispanic Flynn effect if you go through 14 nationally representative samples ( PISA 2009, PISA 2006, TIMSS 2007, PIRLS 2006, PIRLS 2001, ADD Health, GSS, NLSY 79, NLSY 97, CNLSY, NAEP Main, NAEP Long term, High School Transcript Study, and NELS).

    http://theunsilencedscience.bl.....ffect.html

    3. The The largest analysis to date was conducted by Roth et al (2001). A meta-analytic general intelligence gap of 0.72 SD was found for the 70s through 90s:

    Looking at 3rd generation and beyond Hispanic scores: The differences ranges from 0.35 SD (GSS) to 0.77 SD (TIMSS grade 8 science). The average of the differences comes out to 0.61 SD or, when averaging PISA, TIMSS, and PIRLS tests scores per year, per grade (e.g., PISA 2009 MAth + Reading), 0.59 SD. This is not largely different from the general intelligence difference reported by Roth et al. (2001).

  36. FatDrunkAndStupid   12 years ago

    Articles like this are one of the reasons people hate Cosmotarians. What planet do you come from where you can argue with a straight face that Mestizo Mexicans as a group have even remotely similar intelligence levels as American whites? And all this, "well, it will just take a few generations"? Mexicans have been here since before America was even founded. Have any of you ever been to New Mexico? Southern California? If their IQ was going to equalize, it would have done so a long time ago. Where are all the Mexican scientists in New Mexico? The Mexican science and engineering professors at the elite universities in California? The Mexican computer programers working at Google? There aren't even any damn Mexicans in Hollywood for God's sake. Mexicans are, and will for the foreseeable future remain an underclass- no different than the blacks. If you support open immigration and believe the entire population of the world should be allowed in the USA if they so desire, then make that argument. But don't pretend that a Mexican is equal to a Swede in terms of desirability as a fellow countryman.

    The problem you guys have is you are slaves to political correctness. There is nothing "racist" about admitting Mexicans have lower IQ's. There is nothing "racist" about saying if we are going to have a regulated immigration system, Northern Europeans should be given priority, and after them Asians and if we have any room left over we can let in the rest.

  37. Hawk Spitui   12 years ago

    Anyone who's own IQ is greater than room temperature can collect their own data set by taking a quick drive through L.A. and comparing the poor Hispanic immigrant neighborhoods against the poor Asian immigrant neighborhoods. But, of course, clarity isn't the point of this kind of article, the point is to spray squid ink over what everyone who isn't blind with sunglasses on and a has a functioning brain in their head can see with their own lyin' eyes, none of which takes a PhD from Harvard to interpret.

  38. dstarke   12 years ago

    These questions always lead back to the question, "What is the basis for American exceptionalism? (which of course begs the question "Is America exceptional?")
    A number of people have attempted to answer that question and four main answers come to mind: 1) We just happened onto a form of government / economic system which magically makes us better than our peers, 2) we have taken advantage of a particularly abundant set of natural resource, 3) we are geopolitically isolated and needed not to spend vast amount of our time and treasure defending ourselves, 4) immigrants who struggle to obtain a better life and more freedom are, on the average, more intelligent and capable of the specie.
    Note that for all of these, the current government is trying to suppress these potential advantages, degrading constitutional government, restricting use of natural resources, binding us to the security of other nations, removing the struggle necessary to obtain citizenship.

    This then is the task incumbent on those who seek to defend and maintain American exceptionalism. What is responsible for America's relative strength and vitality among world systems? And how can we stop shooting ourselves in the foot in maintaining it?

  39. M   12 years ago

    "..as Unz's analysis of Lynn and Vanhanen's data shows, the average IQ of a population can change in a generation"

    Unz did not "show" any such thing, nor did he conduct any "analysis". He started out with his desired conclusion - that the average IQ of a population can change within a generation - then cherrypicked data which supported that conclusion and dismissed all the data which contradicted it.

    Besides, can the pro-immigration side pick one argument and stick with it? You can't argue out of one side of your mouths that everyone on Earth has the same intelligence and that only a racist would say otherwise, and argue out of the other side of your mouths that sure, Hispanics have a lower IQ at present - but don't worry because that can change in a hurry!

  40. M   12 years ago

    Back in the days of Prop 187 the "free market" libertarian movement fought like wildcats to preserve welfare for illegal immigrants. I think that says all that needs to be said about the honesty and intellectual consistency of the libertarian movement. For all the BS it spouts, it's only true guiding principle is "Whatever the wealthy want is good".

  41. dinkster   12 years ago

    The thesis is invalid because "IQ" is a false premise off the bat. MRI and neuron counting are more legitimate ways to learn human capacity.

    1. buybuydandavis   12 years ago

      That there is a more accurate way does not make the less accurate way a "false premise". The less accurate way is as accurate as it is, no more and no less.

  42. buybuydandavis   12 years ago

    " Richwine wants instead to give intelligence tests to individual prospective immigrants from wherever they may hail and to let the smartest ones in. "

    If Richwine is suggesting individual testing for IQ for immigrants, how did the article turn into ranting about race differences?

    The relevant question is what purpose we ascribe to immigration limits, and whether those purposes are furthered by filtering immigrants with IQ tests.

    Of course it's considered evil by Reason staff to have any immigration limits at all. Fine. Objection noted.

    But for those who believe in some limits, the question then becomes the basis for those limits. Fairness? Rescuing the poor and down trodden? Contribution to society, economic and otherwise?

    Unskilled, uneducated, unintelligent people are likely to be more of a burden than a benefit to those already here. Those who want a larger dependent underclass will want more of them, and those who don't, will want less. End of story.

    Nothing to do with racism. Different individuals provide different net benefit. Do we want to filter potential citizens by net benefit, or not? Nothing more complicated than that.

    1. jhoughton1   12 years ago

      I'm curious -- who in this country, of either red or blue stripe, actually wants a larger dependent underclass? I don't see that in anyone's rhetoric or actions.

  43. vopiwobypacA3   12 years ago

    Scarlett. I agree that Angela`s artlclee is astonishing... yesterday I picked up a top of the range Ford Mustang from having earned $5249 this - five weeks past and-over, 10 grand last-munth. this is definitely the most rewarding Ive had. I actually started 9-months ago and immediately brought home at least $86 per-hour. I use the details on this website.... grand4.com
    (Go to site and open "Home" for details)

  44. jhoughton1   12 years ago

    What I'm taking away from this is that the way the question is put, "Are Hispanics too stupid..?" is insulting and has the issue backwards, anyway. It's not a matter of being stupid. It's a matter of being unprepared to jump in and become part of an economy that no longer has myriad jobs for illiterate people with strong backs. Besides, we are growing our own crop of illiterates, thank you very much, and Dog knows what we're going to do with them.

  45. HenryC   12 years ago

    Everyone is an individual. The variability of intelligence between individuals dwarfs the variability between races. There are some Hispanics that will be a drag on our society, but some of those will be the smart lazy ones.

  46. Generic Stranger   12 years ago

    Yeah, a lot of lefties were pretty anti-intellectual up until they took over academia.

    Hell, look at Pol Pot.

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