Mali

French Defense Minister Admits Mali Forces May Be Behind Some Human Rights Abuses

Refugees appear to be being brutalized by both sides

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qui s'en soucie?

How do you say winning hearts and minds in French? The French defense minister admitted "there was a risk" Mali troops were engaged in human rights abuses. From France 24:

We must be extremely vigilant, and the president of the republic (François Hollande) is counting on the Malian army's leaders to hold themselves responsible for avoiding any abuses," [French defense minister Jean-Yves Le] Drian told FRANCE 24.

"It is their honour that is at stake," he added.

A French human rights group warned on Wednesday that summary executions and other abuses have allegedly been committed by Malian troops as they seek to oust the militants who control the West African country's north. The International Federation for Human Rights, or FIDH, has called for an independent commission to investigate the allegations and that those responsible be punished.

Of course the Islamist rebels, who were previously seen destroying historical landmarks, have a litany of human rights abuses of their own. France 24 continues:

The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) also told FRANCE 24 this week that both sides are suspected of committing human rights abuses. "The stories from refugees are horrific," said William Spindler, a UNHCR spokesman. "Some were whipped by Islamists, others saw rebels cut off hands. Children under 12 are being recruited by the rebels."

But Spindler told FRANCE 24 that some refugees have been terrorised by Mali's army as well. "The refugees also speak of abuses by the Malian army against people they suspect of being Islamists," he said. "The situation is very worrying."

Whether the government (installed via coup early last year) or the Islamists end up winning the war in Mali, the people of Mali look like they're going to be the losers.

USAID called Mali "one of the most enlightened democracies in Africa" just last year.

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  1. Didn’t your hear our president? The war is over. Freedom won.

    This Mali business is just a fantasy that Romney dreamed up at the debates.

    Nothing to see here, move along.

  2. Of course the Islamist rebels, who were previously seen destroying historical landmarks,allegedly have a litany of human rights abuses of their own.

    [/Shikha Dalmia]

  3. “It is their honour that is at stake,” he added.

    Hate to break it to you, Msr. Minister, but when you get caught with a whore, it’s not her reputation that suffers.

    1. Bitch set him up?

  4. I wonder where all those stalwart, righteous anti-war activists are, now that it’s a pinko shithole, not the United States, waging war in a foreign land.

    I’m sure they’re just gathering their fury.

    1. They’ll be around soon to assure us that you can’t make an omelet without raping a few eggs.

      1. Prediction:

        1) French forces fuck some serious rebel shit up.

        2) French forces fucking some serious rebel shit up makes zero difference. Perma-occupation commences.

        Or they’ll just suck and achieve nothing, in which case a perma-occupation occurs anyway.

        1. I dare you to cite any precedent of that.

        2. 3) French forces bail and the US installs a massively corrupt native government before taking over the fight.

          4) War becomes unpopular in US so we pull out but promise to return if there’s any more trouble.

          5) Prez resigns and airheaded veep pardons him, totally forgets about commitment in 4.

        3. Prediction:

          1. French forces get the living shit kicked out of them, by rag-tag bands of desert rats.

          2. US intervenes and gets bogged down in another 10+ year folly.

          3. Half of Paris is burnt to the ground by the Muslims that are typically satisfied with just burning some cars on Holidays.

          4. Mali becomes yet another Islamic state that hates our guts.

          1. Oh, and:

            5. My burqua factory can no longer keep up demand due to increased sales in France.

    2. Where the fuck are they on the U.S. drone attacks when they were so upset about Gitmo and waterboarding?

      It was all just astroturf.

  5. BTW, it seems the French couldn’t afford the gas; they have their transports up on concrete blocks in front yards all over southern France.
    So they hung out along the runway, stuck out a thumb and caught good ol’ Uncle Sam going their way:
    “American planes transported French troops and equipment to Mali,…”
    http://www.sfgate.com/world/ar…..215687.php

    1. Great argument for not supporting drastic Defense spending cuts.

      Always spend enough to have enough transport planes that can fly.

      Then again, maybe we should spend less so the French

      1. … so the French will manufacture or purchase some planes themselves. Hmm.

        1. Love it!
          The won’t do it; it’d cut into the 8 week vacation and full retirement plans,

      2. France =/= America

      3. It’s cheaper and more effective to hire the French Army than to send in the world’s greatest gender equality society.

    2. “American planes transported French troops and equipment to Mali,…”

      Maybe American planes can leave them there to finish the job on their own.

  6. French Defense Minister Admits Mali Forces May Be Behind Some Human Rights Abuses

    So the situation is a bit more complicated than the simplistic “Rebels rebelling rebelliously” scenario peddled by the media, the president and madam Secretary of State?

    Say it ain’t so, Shoeless! Say it ain’t so!

    1. Seems like foreign explosionists always want rebels to be like Luke Skywalker and Han Solo. But what you usually end up with is Hayden Christiansen and Jar Jar.

      1. “Meesa wanna execute some officials!”

        “Shut up Jar Jar.”

    2. Er OM I haven’t seen that narrative of Mali peddled anywhere. Maybe you’re getting it mixed up with Libya or Syria.

      1. BBC’s been shoehorning that theory. Of course, that’s a shitty, state-owned news agency, so I wouldn’t trust it anyway.

      2. The action is only beginning. In a few days Barack will be talking about leading the invasion of Malia from behind.

        1. Mali, I mean.

          1. I was gonna say …

            1. Well at least he chose the 14-year-old one.

              1. Huh?

                1. Malia is the name of one of Obama’s daughters.

                  Now reread your post

        2. That. Is. An. Epic. Fail.

          1. It deserves at least a s-l-o-w clap.

        3. Oh man, that’s a real fuck up.

  7. Ed, your USAID link points to a location directly on your hardrive. Is that your wife or your girlfriend in those photos?

  8. Fire Ed Krayewski now Reason. He’s so good at his job that he provides no evidence of what the Malian people actually think about France’s intervention.

    http://blogs.aljazeera.com/blo…..tervention

    Al-Jazeera: Mailians welcome French intervention

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/ma…..2d7gj.html

    Malian Islamic leaders support intervention

    1. WARBONERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

      1. You’re ad hominem probably means I’m winning.

        Al Jazeera, Malians, and the Islamic preachers are on my side.

        1. Precious few cosmos (or perhaps none of them) recognize the need to confront militant islam as the anti-liberty force it really is.

          They may not be able to invade us with boats, but they can invade us with immigrants, and as Heroic Mulatto points out with his many links, [most] of those apes (muslims) don’t have the slightest ounce of human empathy or desire to “live and let live”.

          Their a plague that needs to be wiped out. Their religion is the problem – it is inherently anti-liberty, and thus evil.

          1. “Their a plague that needs to be wiped out. Their religion is the problem – it is inherently anti-liberty, and thus evil.”

            Sooo,..are you thinking of forming an einsatzgruppen? Or just cattle cars straight to the gas chambers?

            1. Careful, dude. Their warboners are as hard as neutron stars.

              1. My WarBoner is the most solid and graceful in these parts and I had enough of MOOSLIM IMMIGRANTS TAKING OVER several years ago. We have drones for that.

                Although Lyle’s original point is 100% correct: the Malian people are loving intervention!

              2. The whole “warboner” thing is stupid. I don’t want Americans to die in a war in some foreign shithole. I don’t want us to start wars without good cause.

                But the muslims aren’t having any of that. They started this war, and we have to finish it. Until they embrace liberty for their people, which will require either a reformation of their religion, or the abandonment of it, they must be fought tooth and nail everywhere they exist.

                1. “They started this war,”
                  Which war is that?

                  1. The war against Western Civilization* which they clearly hate and wish to destroy.

                    If you don’t believe me, believe the thousands of muslims who have said as much through the media, or who regularly attend rallies advocating for that purpose.

                    *(I left out Christian since that seems to upset all the oh-so-superior athiests, but really all freedom-loving nations were spawned from Christian civilizations, thus marking that particular religion as superior to all others)

                    1. Reading it, that last part came out too smug, which would be hypocritical since I called athiests just that thing in different words.

                      Christendom has produced the greatest liberty-loving nations on earth, and I believe that to be superior to religions which actively promote anti-liberty stances, such as islam.

                    2. Oooh, rallies and media. I’m just quivering in my boots. Now let’s totally bomb people for free speech!

                    3. Libertarians4Freedom| 1.23.13 @ 8:20PM |#
                      “The war against Western Civilization* which they clearly hate and wish to destroy.
                      If you don’t believe me, believe the thousands of muslims who have said as much through the media, or who regularly attend rallies advocating for that purpose.”

                      That’s not a “war”, that’s a pathetic attempt to turn the clock back several hundred years.
                      Unless they threaten me, there is no reason to use my life or treasure to fight them.
                      They’ll continue to fight among themselves for their version of religious purity; let ’em.

                    4. That’s the thing: eventually, they will threaten you. So you can deal with it now, while they are weak, or wait until they are strong. Why would you waste lives by charting the latter course?

                      Heroic Mulatto posted a link earlier today showing muslims agitating for reconquering Spain, for the love of Pete.

                    5. “That’s the thing: eventually, they will threaten you.”

                      So we should initiate a war spanning three continents against a group of over a billion people because someday, decades or centuries in the future, they might be able to seriously threaten us?

                      “Heroic Mulatto posted a link earlier today showing muslims agitating for reconquering Spain, for the love of Pete.”

                      Those people can “agitate” all they want, there is not a single Muslim country (or combination of countries) that can threaten to retake Spain in the foreseeable future. And defending Spain is not a legitimate function of the US government. And as much as Heroic Mulatto is anti-Islam, even he is staunchly against our recent wars in the Muslim world.

                    6. And as much as Heroic Mulatto is anti-Islam, even he is staunchly against our recent wars in the Muslim world.

                      Thank you for noting that I am against the wars; however, I feel you do me a slight disservice when you state that I’m anti-Islam. I would consider myself anti-any religion that has a concept that it is every justified to spread through force of arms and/or economic coercion. I’m anti-Islam as much as I’m anti-Scientology, or anti-Showa era Shinto.

                    7. *ever justified

                    8. HM, I used the term “anti-Islam” rather than “anti-Muslim” on purpose, as from what I’ve seen you post you don’t seem to hold contempt for individual Muslims in general like this guy does. I do get what you’re saying here though. All I meant was that just because you posted a link about some Egyptian Muslims calling to retake Spain doesn’t mean you’re on the same page as “Libertarians4Freedom” when it comes to a military crusade against the entire Muslim World and a genocide of all Muslims (which Libertarians4Freedom insinuated in another thread he would support if it were feasible)

                    9. Libertarians4Freedom| 1.23.13 @ 8:31PM |#
                      “Heroic Mulatto posted a link earlier today showing muslims agitating for reconquering Spain, for the love of Pete.”

                      Yeah, and?
                      I can post links to lefties agitating for the reprise of the USSR. Ignorati exist.

                2. “they must be fought tooth and nail everywhere they exist.”

                  Feel free to get some buddies together to go over and fight them. Just don’t force me to pay for your little adventure

                  1. You’ll pay for it one way or the other.

                    Either in taxes now, or in blood in the future. I’d rather pay the taxes.

                    1. “You’ll pay for it one way or the other.

                      Either in taxes now, or in blood in the future. I’d rather pay the taxes.”

                      No I won’t. Really. But as I said, if you wanna spend your time and money fighting the evil Muslim hordes cause you think they’re gonna take over the world if you don’t, go ahead

                    2. Libertarians4Freedom| 1.23.13 @ 8:27PM |#
                      “You’ll pay for it one way or the other.”{

                      Possibly, but that says more about the horrid US government than it does about feudal fanatics.

                  2. And BTW, the end result of the men who attend those rallies is 9/11. I’m sure those poor people mocked any threat, as well.

                    1. Libertarians4Freedom| 1.23.13 @ 8:28PM |#
                      “And BTW, the end result of the men who attend those rallies is 9/11.”

                      It happened once. Actually 3 out of four tries that day. The forth try made it clear it isn’t going to happen again.
                      And then we *made* them winners by our government’s responses. Shame on us.

                    2. “And BTW, the end result of the men who attend those rallies is 9/11. I’m sure those poor people mocked any threat, as well.”

                      And perpetual occupation and war in the Muslim world is going to stop more 9/11s? Good luck with that. And while 9/11 was certainly a tragedy, there are countless things that kill more people every year than the number of Americans killed by Islamic terrorism ever

                    3. That’s what they use to say about the KKK too.

                    4. “That’s what they use to say about the KKK too.”

                      Was that a reply to me? What? You’re not seriously defending this guy that is on record as saying he would be in favor of killing all Muslims if it were feasible?

            2. einsatzgruppen are too slow and expensive; western Poland sounds good for the chambers, yah?

              1. “western Poland sounds good for the chambers, yah?”

                We will have to check with Oberstrummbahnfurher Libertarians4Freedom, but I’m thinking Poland has got curb appeal…Jawhol!

                1. Well you can’t say nobody warned you. Hope you guys get street cred with the liberal beltway crowd for your enlightened stances towards the savages who would rape your wife and convert your children, if they had their way.

                  1. Libertarians4Freedom| 1.23.13 @ 8:34PM |#
                    ‘Well you can’t say there aren’t stupid assholes around’
                    Got it. Go away.

                  2. “if they had their way.”

                    And therein lies the rub, they won’t have their way, with or WITHOUT genocide. Salafist are scum, why would you emulate them…and their rhetoric? Their kind cannot thrive without external enemies? and talk of wiping out an entire religion, well?.

                  3. Well you can’t say nobody warned you. Hope you guys get street cred with the liberal beltway crowd for your enlightened stances towards the savages who would rape your wife and convert your children, if they had their way.

                    You have a lot to learn, grasshopper. Hang around here and maybe you shall be enlightened. A lot of us here had to be cured of our neocon ways. Some of us still need just that.

                    Our country is in a lot more serious and imminent threat from the inside, that it is from the outside. You may want to start pondering that for now.

                    1. “Our country is in a lot more serious and imminent threat from the inside, that it is from the outside. You may want to start pondering that for now.”

                      There is zero harm that *any* religious zealot in Mali could cause compared to that from a mere slip of a signature from any of hundreds of US governmental ‘officials’, elected or otherwise.

                2. …”Poland has got curb appeal”…
                  Curb appeal, curb appeal…
                  give me a minute, there’s got to be a joke in there somewhere.
                  BTW, did I tell you about my grandfather who died in the concentration camp? No?
                  Well, he made a mistake and locked the door from the inside; they beat him to death.

            3. The so-called “War on Terrorism” or really the war against violent Islamism is arguably genocide.

              We are deliberately and systematically trying to destroy violent Islamists.

              It’s something akin to Indian removal.

          2. I’m with you when it comes to violent Islamists and even non-violent Islamists, but I’m not with you on Muslims. Most Muslims just get up in the morning and want to come home safe not. I’m cool with that. The Muslims in Timbuktu and elsewhere should have that.

            1. Most Muslims just get up in the morning and want to come home safe not. I’m cool with that. The Muslims in Timbuktu and elsewhere should have that

              So, you don’t think we should radicalize those folks by killing their families with drone strikes?

              I mean, do you think you just might become a little radical if some other country killed half of your family, by mistake? Or would you just say, oh well, they meant well.

              Most folks are not driven to radicalism by just anything. It typically takes some stupid government fucking with their lives until they have had enough.

              1. Who did the U.S. kill to radicalize Osama bin Laden or the 9/11 Islamists?

                We aren’t making more terrorists. They’re making themselves. They’re also convincing lots of Muslims to have nothing to do with them. I mean shoot man, they overwhelmingly kill other Muslims.

                1. Lyle| 1.23.13 @ 9:56PM |#
                  “Who did the U.S. kill to radicalize Osama bin Laden or the 9/11 Islamists?”

                  According to what I’ve read, it wasn’t any “killing”; it had to do with the Saudi government ‘allowing’ US military presence on Saudi territory, which presence was a result of the ’91 Gulf War.
                  Why the US should have been involved in that is a question I can’t answer.

                  1. Right, Sevo, it didn’t start out with killing, but now it is just that. And look how fast the Islamist Jihad movement, and Sharia law is growing. We ARE creating more terrorists, and we seem dead set on continuing.

                  2. Saddam Hussein was a threat to the Saudi oil fields and occupied the Kuwaiti ones. Saddam’s invasion was also a violation of international law and the UN Security Council unanimously voted to have an international coalition oust Saddam from Kuwait.

                    1. And how does that contradict anything Sevo said Lyle? And I couldn’t care less about the UN Security Council. We shouldn’t even be involved with the UN

                    2. I’m not contradicting him. I’m providing additional information. Read carefully.

                2. “Who did the U.S. kill to radicalize Osama bin Laden or the 9/11 Islamists?”

                  If you did any amount of research, you’d know that bin Laden and al-Qaeda had a list of grievances against the US government that (according to them) were motivation for 9/11 and other terrorist attacks. You don’t have to believe them (though it’s funny that the people who will say bin Laden was lying will in the next breath lecture people if they don’t take a threat from some random Islamist super seriously). But don’t pretend they’re not out there.

                  “We aren’t making more terrorists. They’re making themselves.”

                  People just become Islamic terrorists for no reason? It’s naive and overly-simplistic to assume that there has to be only one possible motivation (random hatred of infidels for no reason or whatever you think it is) to why people join anti-American terror groups

                  “They’re also convincing lots of Muslims to have nothing to do with them. I mean shoot man, they overwhelmingly kill other Muslims.”

                  Which is all the more reason not to give them a foreign enemy to turn the populace against instead. And even if we took out the morality of it, and assumed that the US government’s (I hate it when people say “we” when referring to what the US government does abroad) actions do not create any more terrorists, our foreign policy of invading countries and occupying them for over a decade is ridiculously wasteful and inefficient.

                  1. Thanks for a very good post, Calidissident. It seems to me that a lot of people are just not capable of thinking outside of the box, especially when it comes to putting yourself into someone elses shoes half way around the world in a different culture.

                    I always try to ask, ‘so do you think you could become radicalized if some foreign culture that you don’t understand, starts fucking around in your country and trying to force their culture onto you, and when you don’t accept, they start killing you’?

                    I really don’t know why people don’t get this.

                    1. Right: OBL was upset that America defended an Islamist regime from an Arab socialist one. Uh huh.

                      Osama stated a lot of things that’s called propaganda. His internal communiques were quite clear: his motivation and his fellows motivation was Islam by the sword. That is the motivation of all Jihadists. The notion that our response ‘strengthened’ them is true only in the sense that America failed to destroy Islamism’s ‘sun’: Iran. That should’ve been invaded right off the bat. The notion that drone strikes are creating more terrorists is not supported by a shred of evidence. Not. A. Shred. Reality is ever the enemy of Neocons and Noninterventionists alike.

                    2. BTW I love hearing that 1) the people being droned are no threat to us AND 2) that there will be ‘blowback’ because…these people are now a threat to us.

                    3. “Osama stated a lot of things that’s called propaganda.”

                      What is the purpose of propaganda? Surely not to recruit people to your cause

                      “That is the motivation of all Jihadists.”

                      And you know this because you’ve personally interviewed every jihadist? For some, simply reading the Quran may be enough to become radical fundamentalists who want to kill all non-Muslims. That doesn’t mean that alone is enough for everyone who eventually becomes a jihadist.

                      “The notion that our response ‘strengthened’ them is true only in the sense that America failed to destroy Islamism’s ‘sun’: Iran”

                      The Iranian regime is a theocratic Shiite regime that is hated by radical Sunnis. There’s also the ethnic Arab/Persian divide to add on top of that. To suggest that invading Iran in the 80’s would have prevented the rise of al-Qaeda or other Sunni terrorist groups is nonsense.

                      “The notion that drone strikes are creating more terrorists is not supported by a shred of evidence.”

                      If you notice, most people here aren’t saying the only motivation for terrorists is drone strikes or US foreign policy in general. You are the one promoting a simplistic view where religion is the ONLY thing that motivates people to join terrorist groups. The burden is on you to prove that’s the only factor

                    4. Iran’s regime is hated by Sunni fundies, but that is missing the forest for the trees (btw it’s abundantly clear that Iran is increasingly complicit and even in cahoots with AQ and the Taliban. They have been funders of sunni Hamas for a long time). It’s Iran’s means of being, not its religious dictats, that energize Jihadists. They see it as ‘proof of concept’. They see what Iran gets away with and are emboldened.

                      The Jihadists are clearly motivated by religion and only their religion. There is no anti-colonial fight. They fight for Islam. Period.

                    5. That’s the most pathetic line of reasoning I’ve ever seen. These mindless religious fanatics are just gonna give and be demoralized if they don’t have a model state to follow?

                      “The Jihadists are clearly motivated by religion and only their religion. There is no anti-colonial fight. They fight for Islam. Period.”

                      More assertions presented as fact without evidence. Of course religion plays a role. A big one. But I don’t see why it’s so insane to think that someone who (for example) has had their family killed in a drone strike by “infidels” is more likely to become a religious fanatic who hates infidels and wants to kill them. Is that really so ridiculous? I love how you make all these claims that you couldn’t possibly know to be true unless you were a mindreader.

                    6. Not anything Calidissident said, only what Cytotoxic said. It’s Calidissient who is ignorant and unthinking, not I.

                      Why the heck Calidissident would you think I would point out how Osama bin Laden wasn’t radicalized by the United States killing anyone? Heck, he was already radicalized when we were helping him in out in Afghanistan.

                      Your entire weltanschauung is upside down Calidissident. Figure out a way to advance your critical thinking skills please.

                    7. “Why the heck Calidissident would you think I would point out how Osama bin Laden wasn’t radicalized by the United States killing anyone? Heck, he was already radicalized when we were helping him in out in Afghanistan.”

                      Where did I say that Osama was not a religious radical regardless of the US? All I stated were undisputed facts. He publicly used US foreign policy as justifications for terror attacks. Whether or not he personally really believed that is irrelevant; even if he didn’t, it then becomes clear that he was using that as propaganda – and the key objective of propaganda is to gather support for a cause

                      “Your entire weltanschauung is upside down Calidissident. Figure out a way to advance your critical thinking skills please.”

                      I think I’ll pass on taking critical thinking advice from a guy whose foreign affairs philosophy can be summed up as “US government = America = good vs. Mindless Evil Islamists = bad”

                    8. You’re hopeless Calidissident. All I can say is you need to read and think a lot more than have done.

                      I don’t think you’re stupid, but I do think you are very, very ignorant.

                      Liberty!

  9. Why cant everyone jsut mind their own business?

    http://www.Anon-dits.tk

    1. Well the US is providing support for the French invasion and props up the French so it is the US’ business. /Raimondo.

      1. The French can’t afford the street-cleaners in Paris and any sort of defense, so the US taxpayer gets to subsidize the street-cleaners by providing the French with a military.
        And I’m waiting to hear the French call Obozo a “cowboy”.

        1. Obama is a Black Democrat so he is a Man of the People who is going to war for the benefits of Teh Pepulz as supposed to KKKorporashuns.

          1. Not to mention that Hollande is a Socialist unlike Sarkozy so his actions are like multilateral humanitarianism and shit.

  10. The French Army is upset that their soldiers are wearing scary scarfs.
    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetw…..estigation

    Looks cool to me.

      1. You missed the battle flag.
        It’s a white cross on a white background.

      2. Bwahhahhaaahahaaa

    1. Yeah, well, the street-sweeper in Paris is ‘concerned’.

    2. I don’t see a problem. Soldiers throughout history have used clothing and makeup to psyche themselves up and to impress and frighten potential enemies in combat. These guys are carrying around loaded small arms, walking next to tanks. A scarf with a skull is minor compared to the intimidation factor of the actual weapons.

  11. My points:
    A) Bush #1 really had no reason to engage in GW #1; if the Saudis were really worried about Kuwait, they could pay for their own damn military.
    B) The muslim religion is probably among the most backward in the world. Screw the muslims along with the jews and the X-ians; not a one of them is worthy of rational consideration.
    C) Given that ignoramuses bleeve their ignorance, I can’t do anything about it, and spending stolen money (taxes) to try to do so is stupid beyond imagining.
    D) Let the bleevers bleeve and fight among themselves.

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  13. Hopefully, when this turns to shit, America won’t try to step in this time.

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