South Florida Tea Party Head: Regardless of SCOTUS Ruling, "I will not comply with ObamaCare"

Another thing to keep your eyes peeled for in the days ahead: Critics claiming they won't comply with Obamacare, regardless of the SCOTUS ruling: 

"I will not comply with Obamacare," Everett Wilkinson, head of the South Florida Tea Party and the Tea Party Command wrote in an email published by the Orlando Sentinel. "The line in the sand has been drawn. As a Marine I swore an oath to the US Constitution. Obamacare is just one of many bad laws, that costs too much, hurts American job creators and job seekers, and explodes our already unsustainable debt."

(Now's probably a good time to mention that the IRS does not allow conscientious objector status.)

Comments

[0x90]

Yes, but it does allow zero-income-earner status.

[Pip from the forge]

Does Wilkinson understand that he's not a real commander?

[Whiterun Guard]

"Your compliance is not required."

[tarran]

Actually, this could kill it.

I had a client who was an ex-IRS lawyer. Last I spoke with him, a year ago, he told me that his buddies still at the IRS were shitting bricks over how hard it was going to be to enforce the law.

If enough people refuse to comply with the penalties, the system will collapse.

[Whiterun Guard]

Unless 'enough people' is like 5, they don't have to worry about it.

[Pro Libertate]

That's correct. But do we have the cojones to do that?

It occurs to me that this is really bad for Obama. Not just because Obamacare isn't popular, but also because there's now a brand spanking new tax. They didn't avoid calling it a tax for the heck of it.

For Rand Paul and others talking about needing to repeal the law, that's not enough. We're going to need at least one constitutional amendment to undo the damage of ALL TAXES GOOD!

[John]

No one has the cojones until they realize everyone has the cojones. It takes a critical mass. A critical mass is hard to get. But these clowns have really done their best to create one.

[Brett L]

"The government shall not lay and collect taxes designed to explicitly reward or punish a certain group of citizens or citizens who engage in certain behaviors."

[mfc]

Agreed, repeal is not good enough. This law should have never passed Congressional oversight much less SCOTUS review. This is a game changer of the worst sort.

Each of us has to decide on our own their level of participation. I made my choice long ago. However it manifests itself, to whatever degree possible, I will not comply with this law.

[Gilbert Martin]

The IRS only has the authority to withold the penalty from tax refunds. It has no authority to use any other enforcement mechanisim. That is the way the legislation was written.

All anyone has to do to not comply and not pay the penality is adjust their witholding allowances and/or estimated tax payments so that they never get a tax refund and the IRS cannot collect it from them.

[kinnath]

That will be changed as an amendment buried in a huge appropriations committee within a year or two.

[Mike M.]

All anyone has to do to not comply and not pay the penality is adjust their witholding allowances and/or estimated tax payments so that they never get a tax refund

Of course everyone should already be doing this anyway regardless, but it's a good point.

[Whiterun Guard]

But that's when the government gives you extra free money!

[Brett L]

That would be me. I always underpay my quarterlies. No fucking way am I loaning Uncle Sam money at zero percent.

[Troy muy grande boner]

Yeah, but it is my feeble understanding that you can get into trouble if you don't withhold enough. And you can't claim for deductions (dependent's) than you actually have. That would be tax fraud.

[Brett L]

Nah. You are the only person who can make the estimate of what you pay in. The penalty is a nominal percentage as long as it is in the current tax year. Hell, I skipped a quarter last year because I wanted to pay cash for a new car. As long as you get right by April 15, its no big deal.

[Troy muy grande boner]

Well hell then, I will do that tommorrow.

[generic Brand]

As was pointed out around tax day, something ridiculous (compared with the rest of the world) like 85% of Americans are scared of the IRS and end up filing taxes. So to say this will be the straw that broke the taxpayer's back is a bold claim. I seriously considered not paying this year when they said I owed $900 still, but I caved. Will I step up next year?

[John]

You never know when you have hit the breaking point until you hit it. Twenty years ago most Greeks paid their taxes.

[ziggy]

Roberts, another Bush fuck up.

[CuriousGeorge]

Well, we always new that Bush wanted a guy who wouldn't "be an activist judge" and defer to congress. Looks like he fulfilled all of GWB's desires.

[John]

I think a lot of people are going to do this. And when they do what next? Once people stop paying their taxes voluntarily it is virtually impossible to get them to do so again. That is what happened in Greece.

[Romulus Augustus]

Well, in Arizona the cops will probably start asking for a copy of your health insurance card when they stop you for "weaving while driving with a brown skin" on I10.

[Whiterun Guard]

Oh BELIEVE me everyone that Arizona cops would pull over will DEFINITELY have their health insurance paperwork up tighter than a frog's ass.

[Sudden]

And for them it will be TEH FREE!1!1!! We'll be paying for it.

[John]

LOL. This is more serious than you think. If people stop paying one tax and get away with it, they will stop paying all taxes. I will leave it to you to decide if that is a good or a bad thing. But it is most certainly a serious thing.

[Hyperion]

It isn't going to happen, John. You know that. Serious discussion here. Why do you think the IRS just purchased all of those weapons and we need to hire 20k more of them? To enforce this crap, that's why.

[Montani Semper Liberi]

I think a lot of people are going to do this. And when they do what next?

Start throwing people in jail. It will only take a couple high profile cases to make people rethink whether principles are worth the chance of spending a couple years in federal PMITA prison.

[John]

Obama is going to throw people in jail for not having health insurance in an election year? Good luck with that.

[BigT]

Obama will never have another election year.

[John]

He has one now. And once people stop paying it the damage is done.

[CuriousGeorge]

Yeah, but the tax doesn't go into effect until Tax Year 2014, which means payment is on April 15th 2015...

[Sudden]

Ted Beneke: Tax-Cheating Pioneer.

[Troy muy grande boner]

I was thinking about that. But federal prisons are a lot nicer than state prisons. All I do now is play video games, read my nook, and read to the prattling of Reasonoids. So, hell, it might not be a bad deal if I can keep my nook.

[ziggy]

Who are excluded from paying the tax? Will this be like the income tax that 50% of Americans don't pay?

[dave b.]

Those 50% will be exempt from this as well.

[ziggy]

Are you sure? This will make it harder to repeal it if half of the nation does not feel the burden of it.

[Hyperion]

They will get the benefits, you pay for it. That's the way it works like the rest of the expanding welfare state.

[sarcasmic]

Who are excluded from paying the tax?

People who comply with the mandate.
If you purchase approved health insurance, then you are in compliance with the mandate.

If you do not, then you pay a tax.

Apparently the court agrees with Tony when he says "inaction is action".

[ziggy]

I mean in terms of income range/salary.

[Brett L]

Anyone not eligible for Medicare or Medicaid, I think.

[ziggy]

So an individual who is excluded from paying income tax may stil be forced to pay the individual mandate?

[Brett L]

Uh, excluded in what way? EITC? Because its hard to be a net zero payer and not be eligible for either 'care or 'caid. But yes, it is possible that a person who makes too little to pay net taxes will find their refund dinged. These are probably best called 'single parents with hourly jobs'.

[CuriousGeorge]

Seems unlikely, or to be rather small.

[R C Dean]

My understanding is that the (only?) exclusion from the penaltax (you're welcome, feel free to use) is if the cheapest policy on the exchange exceeds some percentage of your income.

[RPR2]

that shouldn't take long.

[Paul.]

Yes he will. Obamacare is a tax. (Read my lips, no new taxes on anyone earning less than $250,000).

Tax evaders always end up in prison.

had a client who was an ex-IRS lawyer. Last I spoke with him, a year ago, he told me that his buddies still at the IRS were shitting bricks over how hard it was going to be to enforce the law.

Never underestimate the government's ability to ban or regulate something through sheer force of will.

No more salty ham tears, gentlemen. It's not becoming. You remain stony-faced, stand tall, and look your executioner in the eye.

[John]

Tax evaders always end up in prison.

Only because there are comparatively few tax evaders. If millions or even hundreds of thousands of people refuse to pay, the government is screwed. Our tax system works because people voluntarily go along with it. If that ever changes, we are fucked. And this law goes a long ways to changing that.

[Montani Semper Liberi]

The government has no problem throwing thousands of non-violent drug users in prison. Why would they balk at doing the same with tax evaders?

[John]

yes they would. Because throwing millions of tax evaders in jail would require going after the middle and upper class not just poor and minorities. And most people consider drugs to be a bad thing and drug users to be criminals. Not the case with this tax. Doing that would be much much harder.

[Hyperion]

No, they won't (refrain). John, I agree with you on most things. But on this one, you are way off. They WILL throw your ass in prison or take everything you have, or BOTH, if you do not comply with this. End of story.

[Paul.]

Yeah, I don't see this as the big revolution.

You comply, or you're in prison. Good night, Irene.

[Hyperion]

This is not going away for sure, I am sure of it, and now we are further divided, and I can feel the tensions rising already. We are already so divided as a nation, that I don't really see any short term solution. Those of us opposed to this, need to start working on real solutions, and we can't very effectively do that from a prison cell.

[Paul.]

Those of us opposed to this, need to start working on real solutions, and we can't very effectively do that from a prison cell.

Or a blog.

[Pro Libertate]

This is correct. While I hesitate to predict a taxpayer revolt over this in the immediate future, I suspect there is a point where we'll just start saying the hell with it. Nobody wants to go first, but if some people do anyway in significant numbers, the entire taxing power of the federal government could be called into question.

[kinnath]

Income will go underground.

[Dylan]

That is the only thing that will save us.

[Sudden]

In the words of Ned Stark: "He who passes the sentence should swing the sword."

So to Obama, you want my non-compliance with the mandate money? Molon Labe

[Pi Guy]

If there's no relief for conscientious objectors then the prison system's going to need to get on building more jails and hiring new guards.

See - jobs created!

[NoVAHockey]

hey, if you're not disgusted enough:

politico: One of the first phone calls that House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) made was to Vicki Kennedy, the widow of former Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-Mass.), who spent his lengthy career in public service championing universal health care, according to an aide.

Pelosi told Kennedy: "Now, Teddy can rest."

[Troy muy grande boner]

Pelosi told Kennedy: "Now, Teddy can rest."

So now we have to listen to this cunt's schandenfreude?

[Mr. FIFY]

If anyone had doubts as to Pelosi's vile bitch status, THIS should remove all doubt.

[dave b.]

We have to pass it and let the Supreme Court rule on it to find out what's in it.

[AnthonyD]

was there any emotion on Pelosi's face at the time?

[sarcasmic]

Her facial muscles are too deadened by botox to show emotion.

[BigT]

Teddy might not appreciate more rest in the fires of Hades.

[Mike M.]

Nancy baby, it's going to be a great day when you're resting along with Teddy.

[Banjos]

It is hard to rest with a hot poker up your ass.

[Flyboy]

When does Mary Jo get to rest?

[benji]

Deal with it rethuglicans:
http://dailydish.typepad.com/......970d-800wi

[John]

Boring troll is boring.

[Fluffy]

Even if the IRS managed to get the mandate payment out of me, when about ten minutes of thinking I could come up with a way to cheat on the rest of my taxes enough to offset it.

I imagine not a lot of people are brave enough to stand up and openly declare they aren't paying, but I bet a much bigger number of people will say, "I owe how much for Obamacare? Oh well, I'll just claim $X more in charitable gifts this year."

A lot of the uninsured are self-employed. The SCOTUS just basically double dog dared those folks to cheat on their taxes even more than they already do.

[John]

That is exactly right. And the problem is once it becomes publicly acceptable to cheat on one thing the slope gets very slippery very quickly.

[Emmerson Biggins]

I already consider it acceptable. In the same way it's OK to hold out on protection money from a mobster. In fact, you are doing all your neighbors a favor, in a small incremental way.

[Killazontherun]

Congrats Democrats, congrats Obama, you now own the most regressive tax in the nation's history. All said in done, given the content of your political philosophy, it was inevitable.

[Aresen]

The simple fact is that, as employers increasingly dump their benefit plans, more and more people will be forced onto the subsidized plan and the cost of the plan will rise. They US federal government will be forced to raise taxes (not just the non-compliance penalty - income and other taxes) to pay for it.

Trying to limit health care costs by some form of rationing will become a new 'third rail' of US politics, so taxing will become the only option.

The end of the road will be a single payer plan.

[Sudden]

This was always a trojan horse for that very plan. The reasoning behind PPACA was always "let's fuck up HC markets as much as humanly possible while still keeping them nominally "private" in order to get the blame placed on markets themselves. Once that is achieved, the public outcry for Medicare for all will be deafening."

RC'z Iron Law all the way down.

[generic Brand]

I think the membership roles for the Jehovah's Witnesses (or any other mandate-exempt religions) will rise significantly over the next two years.

[Randian]

oh goody - excessive entanglement cases are always lots of fun.

[sloopyinca]

Hello, yinzers! Please...discuss.

I guess Mario wants to offload the team the same way he got control of it.

[dave b.]

I almost wish they had kept the 1099 provision, so the collapse could come even sooner.

[Mr. FIFY]

I hope lots of people refuse to comply. If that doesn't make Barry implement martial law, it'll take another terrorist attack* or worse.

*which is what the leftists would call "not complying with Obamacare"

[Hyperion]

I believe that this law contains a clause that gives the federal government direct access to your bank account, and the ability to extract funds from it for health care expenses. I am sure that covers the mandate as well or the penalty.

There will be no non-compliance with this. The only way to get rid of this is straight out repeal. Wouldn't the Prez have to sign a repeal? If so, then even if congress could repeal it, then it can't be repealed, because neither Obama or Romney would ever sign it.

This is going to have huge effects on this country, to the extent that it will be unrecognizable. The federal government now has unlimited power. The middle class is going to be decimated.

[sloopyinca]

They can repeal it over the president's veto, but that would take a serious majority in each house. The only way this gets repealed is if somebody that will sign it is elected president and a Team that wants it gets control of the House and Senate and pulls the same stunts Team Blue pulled to get it out of the Senate.

IOW, it ain't getting repealed.

[Dylan]

Congress can overturn a veto with a super majority.

[Hyperion]

What sloopy said.

[Troy muy grande boner]

I don't have a bank account. Banks won't let me have an account after I went bankrupt in 2008. I got a Wal-Mart Card, which I know, of course, goes through a bank. But I can another one of those for 3 bucks.

[CuriousGeorge]

Romney just stood in front of some TV cameras and said he'd work to repeal at Day 1.

[Hyperion]

BS

[John]

He would. He would never veto something that came out of his own COngress. It would be political suicide. He would never even get renominated in 2016. Romney may suck, but he is not suicidal. He will do the right thing if his career depends on it.

The problem is the Dems in the Senate will filibuster a repeal. That is the real block not a Romney veto.

But, Reid refuses to let repeal even go to the floor because he knows that any Dem not from a solid blue state doesn't dare vote for Obamacare again. So mounting a successful filibuster, especially after a lost election where Obamacare was the main issue, could prove more difficult than the dems think.

[Hyperion]

Romney will not push repeal. There won't even be mention of it from him after the election, because the big issue will be invading Iran. We need a new war.

And, don't forget, you need a R majority in both houses, and no RINO abstainers, like Scott Brown, Lindsey Graham, etc. No way this gets repealed in the next 4 years.

[John]

You are wrong about that. He will have no choice but to push repeal. The country will demand it. The House will pass repeal and that will make Romney deal with the issue. Repeal will be the number one issue facing Romney from day one. And it won't go away ever.

[Hyperion]

The fight won't go away. We are in a caged death match between the working middle class and the entitlement class. The entitlement class will grow, and demand more, until it all explodes. It is going to get ugly. Collapse of the socialist state is probably the outcome as always, with the ensuing anarchy, chaos, and then who knows what. Will we ever see liberty again? Not easily.

[Gilbert Martin]

"I believe that this law contains a clause that gives the federal government direct access to your bank account, and the ability to extract funds from it for health care expenses. I am sure that covers the mandate as well or the penalty"

Are you sure about that?

This is the first I've heard of any such thing. It that was in there I think there would have been a lot more publicity about it before now.

[Paul.]

The only silver lining I see here is that Liberals Got Their Way, and so the moment Obamacare falters we get to mercilessly verbally rape any supporter. Because It's All Their Fault.

[Sudden]

See my comment at 12:10, they purposely made this "private" enough in order to plausibly deny responsibility and say "well, we tried for Medicare for all, but you voting rubes were too stupid to go along with it. But now that this "market" solution has failed, it's clear that we need Medicare for All!"

[SugarFree]

Dead on. They don't admit anything has failed, it just needs more money. Even 100% total takeover of health care won't "fail" as long as there is more money to be stolen and thrown down its gaping hole.

[Troy muy grande boner]

Hmmmm.... what if I just refused to file an income tax return? I will claim as many deductions as I can on my w-2's as I dare. I figure that there will be enough malcontents that will refuse to pay. It won't be lying so I can't get into trouble for that.

[sloopyinca]

Hmmmm.... what if I just refused to file an income tax return?

Honestly? It didn't work out too well when I did it.

[0x90]

See also: Irwin Schiff. Moral of the story: OBEY.

[Troy muy grande boner]

Yeah, but I'm poor. I don't have a car, a house, a cat, a dog. Hell I don't even have a cell phone at the moment.

[Hyperion]

Then stop complaining and enjoy your free health care, courtesy of most of us here on HandR.

[Hyperion]

Then stop complaining and enjoy your free health care, courtesy of most of us here on HandR.

[Brett L]

Don't NOT file. Once you're in the IRS's system, that's a really bad idea. So is claiming your income fell off a cliff without changing jobs. They still retain the power of audit. What you want to do is lower your withholding to an amount smaller than your total tax bill last year.

[CuriousGeorge]

and then just not pay the penalty?

[Brett L]

That's up to you.

[Hyperion]

Do not pass go, do not collect $200, you will need a 'get out of jail free' card.

[Hyperion]

I think there is a clause in this that allows the feds direct access to your bank accounts. If that is true, it is certainly one of the worst things in the bill. They WILL abuse the hell out of that. There is also something in there about guns, if I am not mistaken... We are so screwed... I feel sick...

[Gilbert Martin]

What the Republicans should do now is declare that they will not pass any funding legislation for Obamacare.

The Obamacare legislation is an authorization bill - not an appropriations bill. The GOP can (and should) simply refuse to appropriate any of the funds necessary to administer Obamacare.

[John]

I believe they have already done that.

[Dunphy (the real one)]

people are correct on this. the IRS explicitly operates under the principle of "voluntary compliance".

i have no idea if critical mass will be reached in noncompliance as some here predict, but the underlying logic is sound. that is their principle