Commerce Is the Culture War
When government dictates what people buy and sell, it dictates much more.
It's always curious to watch the champions of "choice" decide what choices to champion and what choices to dismiss for the common good.
If you believe that the Obama administration's decision to force Catholic institutions to pay for and offer (directly or indirectly) products the church finds morally objectionable is an assault on religious freedom and free speech, you probably also realize the importance of consumer choice. After all, when government dictates what people buy and sell, it dictates much more.
First, let's ponder the precedent: Obama argues that government not only is empowered to force every adult to purchase a product in a marketplace (in this case, health insurance) but also can demand that providers sell certain products in this market (in this case, contraception). Washington, then, has the ability to direct both seller and buyer if it deems such actions beneficial for society.
And, needless to say, when Democrats deem something beneficial for society, they have a strong tendency to start treating this something as if it were a "right." As it stands, you have the "right" to a free condom, and should you forget or neglect or utilize this right, you have the right to an abortion that is partially funded by fungible taxpayer dollars. (If, however, a couple keep a child, they have no right to use their tax dollars to shop for a school outside their own neighborhood or, apparently, find a health care plan that comports with their values.)
As many of you know, there are "negative rights," as in my right to be protected from harm if I try to buy, say, birth control. And there are also "positive rights," as in my right to have birth control provided for me. In the eyes of many liberals, condoms, health care, salubrious foods, housing, etc., should, if there is any decency in this nation, be positive rights. Thus, anyone failing to provide these things is really just "denying" people access.
So, the argument goes, by failing to offer birth control, the Catholic Church is actually preventing access to reproductive health care.
A neat trick.
If we need an example of how limiting consumer choice can ignite social, economic and quality issues, we can turn to the similar one-size-fits-all debacle of "rights" called public education. Yes, there are Philistines like me who believe that exposing schools to market forces would spur innovation and better outcomes. Surely, there is little doubt that if we extricated schools from state monopolies and transformed parents into consumers, the many arguments about God, history, politics and Darwinism—or whateverism is grating against your sensibilities—would be fought in the comment sections of websites rather than in classrooms.
Don't get me wrong; the left believes that parents should be free to teach their kids whatever they'd like, just not in the schools they happen to pay for.
Health care is similarly destined, no doubt. The intent of Democrats is to create a system with uniform coverage. So what we will be left with is a bunch of highly regulated, interchangeable insurance companies offering virtually identical plans with no incentive for innovation and absolutely no reason to tailor products or plans to appeal to the many diverse groups in this country—religious or otherwise.
They have one consumer to please and one set of morals to worry about. The state. If you don't like your plan, switch to another one just like it. If you can't afford to leave your employer's plan, then join one of those fabricated exchanges run by government.
If you've got some religious beef, beg for an accommodation.
If you don't like the answer, well, hey, where you gonna go?
It's like a theocracy … without the God part.
David Harsanyi is a columnist at The Blaze. Follow him on Twitter @davidharsanyi.
Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
one things for sure: a theocracy without god is preferable to one with god.
Are you sure about that?
There are too many choices. The government should save us from the disorder and confusion of the marketplace.
Choice fatigue!
Like bread. I should only have one choice for bread, one I should be made to appreciate by waiting in line for it.
It brings the community together!
But it should be free bread... with circus thrown in for good measure.
Choices are HARD!
I said "hard"...huh huh....huh huh...
My first reaction to this whole business was "That's what happens when you get in bed with the government."
The government shouldn't be running or funding services. Its decisions are, naturally, all political and self-serving.
No, no, ProL! Only [TEAM which is presently in power] decisions are apolitical and done for The Common Good?. The [TEAM which is presently out of power]'s decisions are the political ones - that's why they're out of power now.
Duh!
It flat out stuns me that that kind of crap works. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me eleventy billion times, I'm a fucking moron.
My first reaction too. And I am saying that as a Catholic.
Same here, Kev. My fellow Catholics should understand that the government doesn't serve them. It's the other way around.
The "indirectly" word spin-of-the-moment? Do I have to remind a libertarian, writing for a libertarian magazine, of the concept that there no such thing as a free lunch 😉
For a magazine called REASON...
DRINK!
What?
They didn't want this so called "free Lunch" in the first place. If a person offers me a "free" pile of shit doesn't mean I want a pile of shit and I don't want to be taxed for that pile of shit either.
I don't get your point.
Are you saying if something happens indirectly, it doesn't happen at all? Or what do you think "indirectly" means? Because I think this is a perfect dictionary example of the word.
The institutions are paying for the insurance. The insurance company pays for the products. How is that not "indirect"?
I know of only three sources for insurance companies to recoup the financial loss for 'free' birth control:
#1 The Libertarian Charity Fairy? ? ?
#2 Using CCTV cameras and the 30k drones to find men having sex and collect a fee
#3 Raising the rates for the insurance and calling it a 'cost of business increase that has nothing to do with your freedom of religion objection' Otherwise known as a 'shareholder wink'
I know #2 is most likely too and it has a great conspiracy angle 🙂
Santorum warned you glib bastards about the dangers of gay marriage, and you just laughed at him.
I've been warning the gays about the dangers of gay marriage... do you think they listened? No, it's been, "Shut up! Now, which line do I get in where I give away half my stuff?"
In fairness, we laughed a lot harder at his daughter. And if he would ditch teh sweater vests, we might not laugh at him so much.
I'm pretty sure we still would.
There is one upshot to Santurom. If the stupid bastard did manage to win, liberals would all of the sudden find that federal control of health care is a really bad idea.
this is actually the one silver lining i have though of a santorum presidency. All that power that they have been handing the obama administration - what are lefties going to say once a president santorum yields it? Whether its healthcare or detaining american citizens. I'll sit back and pass the popcorn.
They will never abandon the central accretion of power. They would just spend four years howling like banshees about getting "the right people" back in charge and how the people were fooled into voting against their own interests.
The alternative would require them to actually think.
Awwww! And they consummated the marriage right in front of everyone! How sweet!
My wife and I consummated our marriage within minutes of saying the vows (of course we'd also been fucking for years before, but that's neither here nor there).
We were married at my house in my back yard. When it was time to go to dinner, we went in to my parents' room to change. My wife asked "Did you lock the door" to which my answer was "of course."
So we started to go at it in the style of dogs when the door swung wide open and everyone at our wedding staring and a simultaneous roar of laughter.
I actually had locked the door. The problem was that I hadn't closed it all the way before locking it.
Serious LOL!!
Such a sweet memory! treasure it.
Somehow, I'm guessing Dave is a guy, and not a woman. Why is it that the Catholic Church looks to me like a bunch of old men in funny hats trying to tell the rest of us--young women in particular--what to do?
Refresh my memory. Who's telling people what they must do and backing it up with force? The old guys in funny hats? Or somebody else?
Should be noted that the guys in funny hats (in the person of Catholic Charities USA) get 62% of their revenue from the federal government.
Umm, seems to me the Catholic Church in this case isn't the ones telling people what to do.
You go to church?
Fucking voluntary association - how does it work?
It don't.
No Almanian. You don't understand. Delicate flowers like Venneman have a right to associate with anyone they want and demand that those people accommodate them.
The whole "you are making war on birth control" horseshit just infuriates me. I almost wish Santorum would win and then proceeds to use the power that these assholes think Obama should have to shove the worst theocratic bullshit they can ever imagine right down their throats. It would serve them right.
I can appreciate the thought but the only place to view it would be from outside the country. I sure wouldn't to be here for that.
Stop misspelling my name!
But don't you see? The men in the funny hats will smash down the doors of free-wheeling young coquettes like Alan Vanneman and forcibly cause them to breed!
Alan can't breed. He's sterile, with that extra chromosome and all.
STOP SPELLING HIS NAME WRONG!
Yeah, dammit!
'kin A!
It goes way beyond religion. This why I always roll my eyes and fart loudly whenever liberals go on about supporting "multiculturalism".
C'mon, RoboCain - join us with the MultiCulti thing - EVERYONE'S doing it!
Freedom of religion doesn't mean you get to opt out of workplace rules just because you happen to believe in magic.
So you supported Jim Crow laws then?
What?
Who said anything about workplace rules?
Regardless of whether there's a Constitutional problem with requiring churches to give out contraceptives, it's a terrible policy. What kind of asshole forces one of the country's biggest administrators of schools, universities, hospitals, shelters, and soup kitchens to violate its beliefs by ordering it to provide a product that costs $9 a month at Walmart?
28 states, some gop
most of those have actual religious exception waiver.
That is great Tony. Good luck with that. And when the religious nuts take over and say that you have to undergo treatment for you homosexuality as condition of getting health insurance, have fun.
Gay men have the highest rates of STDs of any group. That is a serious public health cost. We now have anti-biotic resistant gonorrhea. Clearly, we need to require that you get help for your condition and we engage in some preventive medicine.
When that happens go fuck yourself when you whine about it. If they can do it to the Catholics, what makes you think they won't do it to you?
No, John, if that were to happen and Tony came whining to us about it, we should welcome him into the fold... remember the parable of the prodigal son.
Sure. But only if he repents and understands why them doing it is wrong. And "but this isn't fair" is not the right answer.
Do what to Catholics? Make them abide by the same workplace rules as everyone else (except not in their churches, which get tax-free income as another special handout for being a business that peddles in magic bullshit).
If religious nuts take over (again), we'll have plenty to worry about, such as how they don't seem to care about standards of evidence when it comes to the existence of WMDs.
Do what to Catholics? Make them abide by the same workplace rules as everyone else
Which is making them do things that are against their religion. If the government can force you to do things that are against your religion, you don't have freedom of religion.
You hate religious people so much that you can't understand that they are free to be what they choose. Even though it is in the Constitution, you still won't admit them
The fact that you hate them so much ought to make you more concerned about their freedom. Freedom means freedom for everyone, even those people you don't like. If you take your bigotries as an excuse to be a tyrant, they you don't believe in freedom.
So should a Jehovah's Witness employer be allowed to refuse to provide insurance that pays for blood transfusions? What's to prevent people from claiming a religious exemption to all manner of laws?
Freedom of religion means government won't interfere with your practice. It doesn't mean you are exempt from laws.
So should a Jehovah's Witness employer be allowed to refuse to provide insurance that pays for blood transfusions?
Yes, but they should be required to deliver the mail when they go door-to-door to compensate.
Of course. Why should they not be allowed to do that?
Employer provided health insurance is a fringe benefit. An employee has no inherent right for an employer to provide him with a particular level of insurance.
DRAFT THE QUAKERS!!!! WE HAVE AFRICAN VILLAGES TO BOMB!!!
The Born-Again Christian Obama Administration is not having much trouble finding WMD's in Islamic Iran!
Which ignorantly presumes that the government has any legitimate authority to make this a workplace rule ib the first place
When they control everything you can buy and sell, they control what you can be and do. Not one liberal I know seems to understand this unless the issue happens to be abortion.
The fun part about positive rights is that there is an infinite number of rights to declare.
I declare my right to have Michelle Obama sit on my face while riding on Airforce One to a Lynrd Skynrd concert.
If the President denies me this declared right, I will Occupy Media Matters and shit on David Brock's Soros-catered gourmet lunch.
that sum foamy stuff there
In other news:
http://news.yahoo.com/deadly-a.....05996.html
Yeah! Let's double down on the drug war! WTF.
"Deadly alcohol"
I'll only let you regulate the deadly alcohol if you agree to unregulate the normal alcohol.
In a commentary appearing today (Feb. 15) in the journal Nature, Sridhar argues that the WHO should regulate alcohol at the global level, enforcing such regulations as a minimum drinking age, zero-tolerance drunken driving, and bans on unlimited drink specials. Abiding by the regulations would be mandatory for the WHO's 194 member states.
UN Peacekeeping troops patrolling a town near you to ensure there are no happy hours.
I'm thankful for Oath Keepers at moments like this.
Why?
They would resist any UN attempt to occupy New Orleans.
And the UN would turn tail and run. Even before they see the Oathkeepers. Because college students will be peeing on them and they will be scared.
Abiding by the regulations would be mandatory for the WHO's 194 member states.
How many divisions does WHO have?
If you don't support this, you obviously hate birth control and are a FUNDIE DIPSHIT!!1!lolololpololol;o!
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me eleventy billion times, I'm a fucking moron.
"Hey, you fucked up. You trusted us!"
Exactly. So much wisdom in that film.
It wasn't my fault!!!
Wrong movie.
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son...
This calls for a totally pointless, futile and stupid act. And we are just the guys to do it.
mind if we dance wit ur womens?
why no, go right ahead!
I sat through Animal House in the theater, and didn't even smile. What's so funny about rebelling against a school that you choose to attend? Now, Back To School, that was a funny college movie.
Have we really reached a point in our country's history where our two choices are a president who will force us to buy birth control or one who will forbid us to?
Really?
You couldn't forbid birth control if you wanted to. Griswald and all.
Yup. When the presidential candidipshits are both more concerned with how people fuck than avoiding a fuckin national bankuptcy, then, you guessed it...we're fornicated.
Jay Carney today
"Let's be clear about what's at stake," said Carney. "The proposal being considered in the Senate applies to all employers ? not just religious employers. And it isn't limited to contraception. Any employer could restrict access to any service they say they object to. That is dangerous and it is wrong. Decisions about medical care should be made by a woman and her doctor, not a woman and her boss."
If your employer doesn't pay for it, you are being deprived of it.
You forgot to finish the quote.
"Decisions about medical care should be made by a woman and her doctor, not a woman and her boss. And this administration of course, we obviously should have a say too."
That is different!! Carney is such a lying pathetic douche. He really is a real life 80s teen movie villain. And he is married to Claire Shipman, who is fairly cute. The world really does belong to the devil.
pleased to meet you
hope u guess my name
I thought no one could be oilier and sleazier than Gibbs, but Carney is definitely oilier, smarmier and sleazier, not to mention a worse liar than Gibbs. Gibbs seems almost wholesome in comparison....
Decisions about medical care should be made by a woman and her doctor, not a woman and her boss.
I completely agree. Of course, decisions about whether that care gets paid for should be made by whoever is paying for the care.
So since Catholic Charities USA gets 62% of its revenue from the government, who would that be?
In the end, the employees are the ones paying for the care in the form of foregone wages.
Contraceptives aren't "medical care" in any meaningful sense. They're decisions about a lifestyle choice.
That is a good point. Since when did rubbers become "medical care"?
women take birth control for other reasons as well. my daughter's doctor perscribed it when she was 13/14 to control period migraines & it worked.
my daughter's doctor perscribed it when she was 13/14 to control period migraines & it worked.
And you believed him when he said that's why he wrote the scrip?
i know the results of controlling migraines. there's other uses as well.
my daughter's doctor perscribed it when she was 13/14 to control period migraines & it worked.
And you believed him when he said that's why he wrote the scrip?
woman doctor.
You obviously haven't met many women (it's OK, I understand). Look up "ovarian cysts" or any other condition that is commonly treated with contraception.
Though true, that use still only represents about 1/10000 of the total number of prescriptions for contraception.
So it's "dangerous and wrong" for employers to NOT GIVE EMPLOYEES ANY FUCKIN THING THEY WANT.
This is like Tom Hagen telling Jack Woltz "Mr. Corleone is a man who insists on hearing bad news immediately ."
Look for one of the protesting priests to wake up next to the head of his favorite altar boy.
The church - any church - has always had a special place of privilege in this country. For example, they get tax-exempt status just on the virtue of being a church. It dates back to the concept of separation of church and state, which though it may not be a law, has always been a fundamental precept in this country.
On the other side of the coin is the women who want to work for the church, and who also want to use birth control even though it goes against the church. Um, no one is holding a gun to your head and telling you that you have to work for the Catholic Church, are they? You could work somewhere else if their policies don't fit with how you want to live your life, and you want their insurance to cover your pills and condoms.
PETA employs only vegetarians. Much as I love animals, I don't work for them because I still like to eat meat. Disney has a no facial hair policy. Much as I enjoy a good Pixar movie, I don't work there because I like having a beard. Good news is, I don't have to work at either of those companies, as there are zillions of employers out there.
So this is why I don't get why the White House seems to be on such a mission to force the Catholic Church to provide services via their employee health insurance plans that they are morally opposed to? If it's so much of an issue for their employees, those people are invited to quit and work somewhere else.
Because modern feminism is a totalitarian ideology. No one can opt out. It is not enough that the Catholic church not bother people who choose to provide contraceptives. They must themselves provide them or they are the enemy. No one gets to remain neutral. It is the same thinking that went into demonizing the Koman Foundation. it didn't matter that the foundation helped women. It didn't matter that they had nothing to do with abortion. You can't remain neutral. All that mattered is they stopped supporting an abortion providing organization.
I was sorry to see the Komen Foundation cave on the Planned Parenthood issue. What I understood, they'd been funding PP to provide mammograms, but PP does provide that service, they subcontract out. Makes sense to me that Komen would rather fund the services directly than working through a go-between. It had nothing to do with support or non-support of abortion services, which nothing I saw gave me the impression that the Komen Foundation has a stance on one way or the other.
PP also was also under Congressional investigation. And it is a long standing Koman policy not to do business with people who are under investigation.
There was that, true. Though an investigation isn't an indictment. Not meant to be in support of PP, just that companies and individuals come under investigation for this and that all the time, to make that a blanket policy is a little over-reaching.
Komen needed to stick just with the financial aspect of it. They were paying PP for a service PP doesn't really perform, so why pay Paul when it's really Peter performing the service?
that "investigation" was a gop show trial so komen would be forced to back-out.
So what. That is your opinion. Maybe Koman thought differently. It is their money. They are no more obligated to support planned parenthood than anyone else.
that's why its all yummy when they choose to!
The church - any church - has always had a special place of privilege in this country.
Which is a bug, not a feature. I honestly don't see why a church should be privileged over, say, Rotarians. Of course the reason Rotarianism isn't a controversial belief system is that don't ask for special privileges when they operate businesses under civil law.
And some churches are way more equal than others. Government tends to accommodate established churches with lots of members over newer churches with fewer members.
And because anyone at any time can found a church with any belief system no matter how spurious, eventually there will be a conflict between one religion which says government has to do something, and another group which says government may not do that thing.
Also, the Catholics are totally getting a pass on prosecution for clerical sexual abuse of children. If it were almost any other group, particularly a non-religious one, attorneys general would have brought RICO charges against them and people would be in jail.
Which is a bug, not a feature. I honestly don't see why a church should be privileged over, say, Rotarians.
Here is your answer
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
Religion has a special place because of the Constitution. Seriously, how can anyone with even a cursory understanding of the Constitution make a statement like that?
If you don't like Religious Freedom, fine, change the Constitution.
Unfortunately they forgot to include
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of transactions, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
which was meant to be the founding principle of our economy.
Well, that would have helped the slave trade, no doubt about that 😉
Freedom of religion is ultimately freedom of belief. Because you can claim that any belief system is a religion.
You're relying on a narrow and legalistic definition of religion (no surprise there, of course) and refusing to look beyond the arbitrary religious/non-religious divide to realize the deeper meaning and implications of the First.
They didn't use the term "freedom of belief" They said "religion". And yes there is a legalistic definition of such a term and that is what they meant. Again, if you don't like it, change the constitution.
OK, but you're not addressing my contention that any belief system can claim to be a religion. So the distinction is indeed meaningless.
So what? Lots of them do. If you want to go out and form your own religion, feel free. It doesn't say there can never be any new religions. But the Rotarians are not a religion.
Regardless, the Catholics sure as hell are. And they are entitled not to be forced to do shit that is a against their religion.
But where do you stop with the pandering to religious groups? Why is this fair to non-religious employers when religious employers get to cut costs by opting out of laws? Are "religious" exemptions also available to atheists?
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
Right, I will refer to you in my defense next time I cut off my daughter's vagina for religious reasons
But where do you stop with the pandering to religious groups?
Remember, a predicate to pandering is seeking to control what people do. Leave people alone, and you don't have to worry about any of this.
Start dictating how people live their lives, and you do.
And I'd like to see Obamacare go away as much as anyone else here.
Stop trying to redefine the argument. It's fair to neither religious nor non-religious people or organizations because it forces them to pay for something they do not want to pay for. No one should have to purchase or pay for something they have no desire for. By allowing the government to decide what must be covered by insurance and then forcing consumers to buy that insurance whether they want it or not, violates everyone's right to buy only the things they want regardless of their reason for wanting them.
The reason the religious issue is such a focus is because this mandate forces religious leaders to act in direct opposition to the doctrine of their religion, which is forcing them to act in direct opposition to their consciences, which is an absolutely egregious abuse of power by the state. If the state can force religious organizations to subsidize contraception and abortions, what's to stop the state from compelling a conscientious objector from serving in the military? What's to stop them from compelling anyone to do anything they deem appropriate for the common good?
Nothing at all.
Disney has a no facial hair policy.
Not anymore; a few weeks back there was a news item (on Yahoo News) that now "neatly groomed" beards are allowed for Disney employees who are in contact with customers (as far as I know, the policy was never in effect for employees who weren't serving the public -- and I was a Disney Interactive employee in the mid-Nineties for a year).
Strange time to do it. I feel like beards are less in fashion now, not more.
Actually, Disney no longer has a no facial hair policy. It's changed in the last month or so.
Gosh how I'd love to get a job at PETA so I could bring my sausage McMuffin to work every morning.
The real problem is that the health insurance business has been screwed up for decades. A lot of the things that people have a problem with coming out of DC have been mandated by states for years. Each state has always had "a bunch of highly regulated, interchangeable insurance companies offering virtually identical plans with no incentive for innovation and absolutely no reason to tailor products or plans to appeal to the many diverse groups in this country?religious or otherwise." To get a license to sell insurance you have to comply with whatever each state insurance commission demands. I'm realy surprised the states are not crying out that this is a violation of the agreement between states and the feds under the McCarran-Ferguson Act.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarran?Ferguson_Act
Well, I always thought one of the biggest problems with the health insurance machine was the regionalization. There are regions that are so restricted that a company or two runs a mini-monopoly because they're the only one that qualifies to provide service there.
But of course, Washington's answer to over-regulation is even more regulation. I guess they think that regulation is like climbing a mountain - eventually there will come a point where we clear the top of the peak and the rapidly declining efficiency will magically start rapidly climbing again.
You are correct. In pennsylvania, the insurers were forced to add one more day to hospitalization after a birth.
Why? Because one of the most conservative members of the state house had a baby, the doc said there may be complications if I send the missus home, and the extra day wasn't covered. So said legislator rolled the dice instead of paying out of his own pocket. Wife went home, had complications, and had to be re-admitted. So law was passed and now all birth mothers enjoy the extra day in the hospital whether it is called for or not.
I would like to note that though this article is about the Left deciding what is good for us and what is not, the Right is no better. They just have other things that they're determining what is good for us and what is not. Both sides are convinced they know better what we need than we do.
Thank God for the ! Without them, I wouldn't even be able to tie my own shoes.
No the Right is no better. And that is what makes this shit so short sighted on both of their parts. As I said above, it would serve the liberals right to see Santorum get in and shove all of the worst shit imaginable down their throats.
That should have read "Thank God for the [Republicans/Democrats - really, they're interchangeable]!" I used the wrong parens and the board apparently thought I was inventing a new HTML tag.
Tagged: http://rustbeltphilosophy.blog.....eople.html
Who said anything about workplace rules?
"Okay, lissen up: if you kids are gonna have sex in the break room, at least wipe the table off when you're done."
If insurers are required to pay for birth control, people might use it. If people use it, that will reduce the possible future population that will be required to do the work to fund the government. That will accelerate the federal government's bankruptcy.
Therefore, I am reluctantly favoring the policy. What's the good of being morally bankrupt if we're not going to be economically bankrupt, too?
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
How does tax free status follow from that? Exercise your free religion all you want, but don't shift your property taxes onto me.
I don't think that it does. We probably could revoke their tax exempt status. But the government can't force them to do things the way they can a normal business.
OTOH, if they are operating a normal business they have left the special protected vale of religion entering the arena of civil society and civil laws.
Remember, these laws do not apply to their actual religious operations - clergy and their immediate staff.
Explain to me again how operating a business is in any way religious.
These are schools and hospitals, open to people other than the members of the faith claiming a religious exemption. That right there invalidates any claim that these activities are religious.
They are not running businesses. If they did, they would lose their tax exempt status. They are running charitable endeavors like hospitals and homeless shelters.
It is not good enough to say "well if you just stay among your own people do what you want". No. Part of their religious mission is to do charity to the general public. They are not out making computers and cars.
What the government is saying is, that if they want to do any charity work or run a hospital or do anything beyond give mass, that means they have to do something that violates their religious beliefs as a price for doing it. And that means they can't do their core mission and they can't practice their religion.
It is not a God damned business. They are not general motors. They are a religion and they get special protection from the government. That is what the Constitution says. Why is this so fucking hard?
The fact that they're serving people outside their faith tradition could itself be an expression of their religious convictions.
And most secular people know this at some level. If a Christian church soup kitchen served only members of the church itself, or if it demanded a declaration of faith from anyone who wanted something to eat, secularists would be among the first to cite the group's non-Christian behavior, asking whether Jesus exercised such discrimination when He was healing and counseling people, etc.
When secularists suspect that churches are trading assistance for religious allegiance, there are cries of bloody murder ("rice Christians").
So basically the secularists rarely believe their own argument.
secularists would be among the first to cite the group's non-Christian behavior
Oh, you just pulled a John (broad, sweeping, easily falsifiable statement). Sure some secularists do that, not all.
Since I'm not Christian, I wouldn't presume to tell Christians what they should or shouldn't believe.
And, yes the Salvation Army still makes the bums pray to Jesus before they feed them.
I started off by referencing "most secular people," and I should have stuck with that - that was my intent anyway.
In many places this isn't material. But in some it has major consequences - 1/4 of the town where I live is owned by a Quaker school (most of which land is undeveloped) so the property taxes the rest of us pay has to cover township services for them.
^This. And could I claim property tax and regulatory exemption for Tonio's Atheist Brewpub? Not so much.
I am sorry you are butt hurt the founders were not atheists. If you want that protection, pass an Amendment. I love how you guys are real sticklers for what the Constitution says until it actually protects something you don't like, then you are all living constitution, broader less legalistic meaning types. Whatever.
What does the Constitution have to do with tax-exempt status for religions? Nothing.
Reason readers, in general, believe the Constitution should be enforced as written, and improved where it is deficient. There's nothing contradictory about that.
Tonio did not say he had a Constitutional right to tax-exempt status for his Atheist Brewpub; he said he didn't have the status, which is true.
Establishment clause, John. If I can't get a "religious" exemption for my brewpub then I'm being discriminated against. Government is establishing every belief system but mine as a bona fide religion.
Also, courts have ruled non-belief to be the equivalent of belief as far as the first.
You're the one all "butt-hurt" because you might have to treat those dirty pagans (barf) and atheists the same as Presbyterians.
And no, I'm not being serious. I don't think anyone should have a religious exemption because it establishes religion, invites fraud and abuse, and is unfair to everyone else.
No, John, I accept the reality that most of the founders were religious. Atheism is all about reality acceptance.
Not that it really matters whether the founders as a group were religious or not; the First provides protection for my views as well as yours.
And FWIW, Jefferson (the author of both the US First Amendment and the earlier VA religious freedom statute) is widely held by modern scholars to have been a philosophical though not religious Christian. Deist at best, probably agnostic or atheist. Atheism was considered insane and heretical when he was alive.
As a matter of fact, I believe atheists are entitled to organize churches - as long as you're dealing with the ultimate questions of life.
What do you call the Unitarians?
And there's nothing wrong with a church serving booze - check out an earlier thread.
Unitarians are tax-exempt even though they do not in any way insist on a belief in God. Just so long as you're liberal.
What do you call the Unitarians?
"Damn hippies."
Thanks folks, I'll be here all week.
You said something about a Quaker school. Any hippies there, by any chance?
That was actually Romulus Augustus who mentioned the Quakers. But, yeah...
My bad - those schools do tend to attract at least a few hippies.
Depending on the denomination, some of these tax-exempt Quakers have very watered-down theism.
You might have a shot setting up your First Reformed Tax-Exempt Church of Religion Sucks but our Beer Doesn't. Just so long as they think you're sincere. They look at the sincerity, not truth, of your beliefs.
Isnt this generally the case with non-profits? Harvard and MIT dont pay property taxes and thats been a political issue in Cambridge for a while now.
Yes. And they don't pay taxes on the earnings of their enormous endowments. But I don't think the Constitution mandates churches not pay taxes. But that is a different issue than the government mandating that they do something.
Revoke churches' tax exemptions - I'm sure that the money the government seizes would only have been wasted on charity anyway! The government will find much worthier charitable causes to spend this money on!
In many cities, the the city government will tell the churches what might be an appropriate voluntary property tax (I think they get a half off discount in Minneapolis) might be and then the church usually pays it.
I think it's along the lines of "Nice church you got there. Be a shame if we ended your property tax exempt status altogether."
"How does tax free status follow from that?"
It removes the temptation by the government to control churches by gaming tax law. Remember, that separation of church and state thing that social liberals is supposed to work both ways.
The religion angle of this whole thing sucks. Birth control mandates are bad policy for the same reason that "free" breast exams are, and why shit like ordinary dental cleaning shouldn't be paid for through insurance. You are taking a predictable expense for something that is commonplace and should be very affordable, and adding red tape and extra accounting overhead costs.
I suspect that insurers don't mind paying for dental prophylaxis (cleaning) if it reduces overall dental care costs.
Only, I don't think it does. Cleaning doesn't counteract tooth decay, just gum disease. Gums go bad, teeth come out -- and even the extraction is easier. Gums don't go bad, teeth decay & chip, get filled, crowned, capped -- more expensive in the long run.
Being a church is one way to get a 501(c)(3) federal income tax exemption. Being a charity is another, entirely distinct way.
There are lots of tax-exempt hospitals, out there that are not church-affiliated because they are charities. Same with schools, which also can use the exemption for non-profit educational organizations.
Which route church-affiliated hospitals and schools take, I couldn't say for sure since I haven't worked for any. I suspect the hospitals take the charity route, and the schools take the educational route.
Personally, I think giving a tax exemption to a church qua church is getting awfully close to an establishment of religion.
Thanks, RC. That's basically my point, though I come at it from a different direction.
I like condoms, I like hookers, I like porn, but I don't expect my insurance company to pay for that, so why should some slut at a Catholic Hospital expect any different?
Insurance is one of the most regulated industries in America, and everytime the fucking government tells them to pay for something, the cost of insurance goes up for everyone.
The fact is that today employees have a choice, go with the cheap group insurance plan or buy your own insurance in the private sector. If you work for a Catholic Hospital, your group plan should reflect the values of your employer. If you don't like it, go buy your own insurance with your paycheck.
I think I know how it works now:
1. There are men who want to fuck many and much. However, their partners won't put up with that unless they can see that most other people are fucking many and much as well.
2. Other people won't fuck many and much because of various costs associated with that behavior.
3. Therefore the men who want to fuck many and much must get other people to change their behavior, by reducing the attendant costs.
4. Therefore the men who want to fuck many and most must agitate for public policy that reduces the marginal costs of fucking many and much to those many they'd like to fuck much. This is done by shifting much of those costs to others.
5. Profit!
Do you know what is going to be even worse with the insurance eschanges? There is going to be a cartel of companies who have the right to sell insurance and I bet they will make sure that no one else will join the cartel. Competitors will be eliminated simply because no one is allowed to buy from them. You can't have a business if there are no customers and how do you start business if the govt tells customers that they can't buy from you.
The power to determine what gets bought and sold gives government the power to shape society as it wants.