Michael Lind: Occupy Movements Could Make Libertarians and Tea Partiers Seem More Extreme (Which is Good)
Never mind fears of the Obama administration or Democrats co-opting the Occupy Wall Street movement, Salon's Michael Lind is excited about OWS, because those crazy kids could realign the center of American politics. If the protesters stay radical, somehow that will make people stop thinking that the New Deal Democrats are the far left. They're the non-crazy center, see:
The Occupy Wall Street movement has the potential to help the center-left, even if some of its activists despise the center-left the way that the New Left in the 1960s and 1970s dismissed progressive-liberals like the Kennedys and Johnson as sinister "corporate liberals" promoting the "warfare-welfare state." The reemergence of a radical economic left can create a fourth point on the political spectrum, changing the relative position of all other points. The Tea Party right, now the mainstream right, would become the far right. Today's center, shared by Clinton and Obama with Reagan and the Bushes, would become the new center-right. And the new center-left would be something like New Deal liberalism — to the left of Clinton and Obama, but to the right of an anti-capitalist left. Better yet, if the public tired of Tea Party conservatism, the far right could implode and the new "far right" would be moderate economic conservatism of the Reagan-Bush-Clinton-Obama variety. What until recently has been the left — old-fashioned social democratic reformism in the New Deal tradition — might once again be the center.
Buried in his dubious essay are several cogent points; Lind does group Obama with the Bushes, Clinton, and even Reagan, noting that Obama is not exactly a friend to certain left ideals (civil liberties, opposition to war, etc.)
Lind also notes that the warrior presidents of the 20th century were nearly all Democrats: Wilson, FDR, LBJ:
The goal of progressive-liberals has been to save American capitalism by reforming it, not to replace it. And the progressive-liberal presidents led the U.S. into the world wars and the Cold War, over the objections of the pacifist left and the isolationist right. Today a case can be made for considerable strategic retrenchment by the U.S., but progressives in the Rooseveltian tradition want the country to maintain the capability to intervene in conflicts beyond North America, if that is necessary to prevent hostile powers from dominating the populations and resources of key regions.
For most of the 20th century, the American center-left was attacked simultaneously by the radical left and the reactionary right. This allowed progressive-liberals to position themselves as the reasonable alternative to the extremes of socialism and plutocracy.
This hoped-for political shift leaves libertarians and any of their sensible Tea Party friends not just out in the cold, but non-existent. Because they are too damn radical.
Recall that Lind declared that libertarians "apologize for autocracy" and "side with the confederacy." (Damon Root politely, but firmly refuted that particular screed.) Extremism, to Lind, is anyone opposed to a baseline leviathan state. Sensible folks know that the hippie kids in the street can be used to make non-threatening, non-pierced or blue-haired FDR-style liberalism inherent to every serious political discussion.
The thing is, plenty of folks whom I talked to at Occupy D.C. sounded like moderates. Some were sensibly anti-war, a few mentioned the drug war, but many of them advocated for a kind of fettered capitalism that they believe would be more fair.
For example, Matt Welch just blogged a poll where half of the OWSers asked thought that the bailouts were "necessary." Here's another interpretation, from capitalnew york.com, of that polling data that is not oh God, the radical leftists are going to overthrow everything:
What the pre-interpreted numbers seem to show, to me, anyway, is that many of the protesters consider themselves Democrats, many will vote for Obama in 2012, and, relatively speaking, "income inequality" doesn't actually rank too high on their list of grievances.
What frustrates you the most about the political process in the United States? {Open Ended}
30% Influence of corporate/moneyed/special interests
3% Our democratic/capitalist system
3% Stagnant middle class wages
21% Partisanship
15% Joblessness
6% Income inequality
7% Corruption
2% Entrenched bureaucracy
2% Bush tax cuts
2% Obama abandoned left
2% Military spending
2% Federal Reserve
5% Everything
Also, fascinating:
What would you like to see the Occupy Wall Street movement achieve? {Open Ended}
35% Influence the Democratic Party the way the Tea Party has influenced the GOP
4% Radical redistribution of wealth
5% Overhaul of tax system: replace income tax with flat tax
7% Direct Democracy
9% Engage & mobilize Progressives
9% Promote a national conversation
11% Break the two-party duopoly
4% Dissolution of our representative democracy/capitalist system
4% Single payer health care
4% Pull out of Afghanistan immediately
8% Not sure
A lot of these folks are moderate leftists who are telegenically pissed off at some of the correct things, including the president. But some could easily end up as the New Deal Democrats of Lind's dreams.
Reason on Occupy Wall Street and Occupy D.C..
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That's a whole lot of stupid to waste on a movement that will disappear after the first freeze.
Yay...while I was posting...!
No, I don't think they will. I think they'll pack up the day after Election Day 2012.
Sooner or later the novelty will wear off, people will get tired of bankrolling these moochers.
Then they'll run out food and have to resort to cannibalism. Problem solved.
only if their own stench doesn't get them first.
Stinky jokes. Very original.
Darn. I was hoping for comments I could comment on.
Meanwhile, I'm hoping the Occupiers make the Tea Partiers and even fairly radical libertarians seem less extreme. I think there's a good chance that could occur, unless in the public mind now for the next couple years or so they all get lumped together amorphously as malcontents.
I think they will. It's especially amusing to remember the eagerness with which the media examined the Tea Party protests, seeking out anything they could call "racist" and "extreme." Now the extreme elements of OWS are plentiful and obvious. It's hard not to notice the contrast.
Certainly we come across as far less idiotic.
Just wait until we're done with you.
You no longer monopolize information dissemination the way you once did which is why the progressive left is no longer the "center" the way it was before you had competition. Back then, Nixon, who today would be to the left of Obama was considered right wing.
Saw this link on Jesse Walker's twitter. It has the full results, interesting to parse.
It also indicates which questions were open ended, which was a lot of them.
I think OWS may well realign American politics, but more along the lines of the way the Chicago DNC riots in 1968 did: discredit the left and push a lot of people to the right.
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
Yes - Nothing will move most Americans to the right as the sight of dirty hippies trying to take over.
I'm getting pretty burned out on something that's going to fizzle out soon enough like the fad it is.
So let's hijack Lucy's thread with a discussion on the best subject to hijack Lucy's thread with. Lucy, any thoughts?
That's a great question.
I think this thread should devolve into in-jokes which stretch back five years, sock puppets, and crude witticisms and insults.
Sound good?
PWNED
I don't know if it sounds good, but at least it's different than most other threads!
I will take a risk and suggest a discussion on the superiority of thin crust pizza over deep dish, or possibly why Kirk is better than Picard. I know these aren't popular subjects, but they do merit at least some discussion.
Child of the 90s here. I gotta go with Picard.
But save your "A" material for our live tweeting thread!
Child of the....90s?
Good god I'm old.
And a teenage of the aughts. If that makes it worse for y'all.
And a teenage of the aughts. If that makes it worse for y'all.
Yep, that did it. /sadface
My beard is older than you are, Lucy.
And by beard, I mean my wife.
God damn it, you saved your ass by getting to that just before me. Too slow.
Well, I didn't want Lucy thinking I was busting her chops for being young. I adore young people. Their blood keeps me alive.
You're soaking in it.
That comment, of course, dates me--and Madge even more--horrifically.
Pro Libertate just outted me as Countess Elizabeth B?thory de Ecsed! I think he should be banned!
It's not like everyone didn't already know. Who else is that depraved?
I gotta go with Picard.
You know, Lucy, I was beginning to like you, and then you go and say something like that. You know who else liked Picard better?
I'm gonna really screw it up and pick Captain Jonathan Archer as a write-in candidate.
Well, he certainly had the best looking Vulcan sidekick. Yet, Kirk is still in second place with Saavik.
It may be more of a compliment to Patrick Stewart, but have you seen how buff he is? Kirk got fatter as he got older, but Picard started the show in his 50s and by the last movie was still in great shape to where he was believable as a guy that could fight hand to hand.
Wait... *which* Saavik? Cuz Kirstie Alley was at least kinda hot back in the 80s, while the replacement Saavik was just weird-looking.
Wrath of Khan Saavik, obviously.
Don't ask silly questions like that.
The nerve of some people. Second Saavik is strictly non-cannons. And, for that matter, non-canon.
Kind'a? She was very hot in that movie.
Paralleling "Kirk": Kate Mulgrew guested on Warehouse 13 this season. Definitely not as trim these days.
I liked Picard better
Isn't "second Saavik" kind of like "what's the name of that other guy from Wham!"?
A big blue face claiming to be God?
I changed my mind. My favorite captain is the one who was in the original pilot. You know, when number two was a lady who wore pants!
(Actually that guy was pretty dull, but hipster points. And a lady! In pants!)
Ahh... Captain Pike, with Missus Roddenberry as Number One.
Woulda been an entirely different show, without The Shat.
The legacy would have been extremely different. The King of Kings died before the last episode aired.
That's one thing Pike had on Kirk. Kirk never played Jesus.
Are you insane? See, this is why you are only an associate editor and not allowed to wear a leather jacket.
Kirk saved the universe a hundred times and mated with most of its humanoid females. I think he even saved other universes a couple of times.
I'm surprised that he's not worshiped as a god by the time of ST:TNG.
You never forget your first captain or your first Doctor.
Mine are Picard and Eccelston respectively. I understand those are youthful choices! Sorry!
You need deprogramming. I prescribe ten episodes of the old show, drinking something alcoholic and green colored.
Wait.. Picard as your first captain but Eccelston as your first doctor? How does that temporal incongruity work? Didn't you have DVDs or public television as a kid?
I'll go with Captain Morgan.
Kirk and Picard could flee danger, had everyone on the ship at their beck and call and could make decisions without a lot of backtalk.
Sisko pwned those mofos.
Kirk once fought a Greek god. And won.
He definitely had luck on his side.
Kirk traveled through the Great Barrier, met God, and wasn't even impressed.
Kirk didn't just travel through the great barrier, he gamboled through it.
"These are the gambols of the Starship Enterprise..."
Wouldn't that be Canterprize?
Only when the saucer section is separated.
How many times, total, was the saucer section separated? Much like Dianna Troi, it was a stupid gimmick that they used a bit at first and then discarded. Thank Jeebus.
"Captain, I'm sensing...Space Jews..."
I'm sure she could sense what was in my pants.
Really, why else would Picard allow Troi on the bridge?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_BX8UjVUvA
Three times: in the first episode, then later during the attempt to rescue Picard from the Democratic National Committee cube, and the "Arsenal of Freedom" episode.
I can only think of two times: The first episode and one of the times they were fighting The Borg. There may well be more, but I drawing a blank.
*I am drawing a blank* fucking laptop keyboard
In the episode where they went to the parallel universe where the Federation was at war, and they ran into the alternate Enterprise, it was on a war footing so they were using the battle bridge and had separated the saucer section.
That was actually a pretty cool episode.
Yeah, that ep consistently polls as the best, or one of the best, ever.
I know they talked about doing in on several occasions.
After recently rewatching ST:TNG, one really bad Troi moment stands out. How on Earth did she get to become a full commander by taking some stupid test? If becoming a commander is so easy ("Psst. Just kill Geordi and you're in"), how in the Federation could Troi get it before Data? Or, really, anyone else in the entire crew? Crap, from what we saw on the series, Barclay would've been more qualified to be a commander than her.
How on Earth did she get to become a full commander by taking some stupid test?
Affirmative Action for empaths?
This is the star trek universe we're talking about. Data had the ability, but Troi had the need.
Data was the victim of android racism, straight-up.
But seriously, the entire ST universe is very prudish about human replacement and the visceral interface of tech and biological systems. They are also deeply terrified of altering the human germline and transhumanism in general.
Robots: You can't make Data, but you could make a robot that could at least be smart enough to send down instead of a redshirt. There are no autoguns, no drones, no robot manufacturing that you see take place. And even a sub-AI computer could drive the damn ship.
Interfacing with technology: Why don't any of them have implants, boosted strength, etc? It's obviously possible. And The Augments were centuries ago, maybe don't raise augmented children thinking they are gods. That's why The Borg are the ultimate nightmare for The Federation, they pitch it as being troubled by the hive mind, but think of the shame you see on Picard's face when his looks at where the Locutus implants were, or the criminal status of Dr. Bashir.
They are Luddites that just happen to travel around the universe at superluminal speeds.
Umm...Geordi's eyes?
Yeah, and how long did he wear a banana clip before he got those? They could replace spines in Kligons a decade before that; eyes are not that hard.
Again, this raises the point that Gene was a dope. He didn't create science fiction; he figured out how to make a science fiction show for TV with a non-retarded budget (transporters--no need for expensive shuttle shots, for instance) and barely built any story at all around the Federation, because the Enterprise was on a five year mission and its whole point was encountering shit in the unknown, not Federation politics.
And frankly, I don't think Gene was creative or smart enough to come up with anything really forward looking, so what you get is a show whose core is from the 60's and 60's technology, by a guy who really wasn't a science fiction writer in the true sense of the word.
Of course it isn't going to embrace all sorts of transhumanism and robotics and AI. Half the episodes are about fear of that, as you point out. It's almost like it's anti-sc-fi.
It is science fiction, its just that it's science fiction from the 1930s. Travel the universe on shaky science, baseline humans dominate and organize races that aren't that unlike humans and that have been spacefaring for sometimes thousands of years before us. Campbellian science-fiction at its basest, all the way down to a pre-occupation with psychic powers.
Yeah, I guess what I meant is that Gene got his ideas about science fiction from what you just described, which would have been the sci fi he consumed while growing up. He wasn't a scifi innovator like Alfred Bester or Fritz Leiber; just a regurgitator like Lucas.
And frankly, I don't think Gene was creative or smart enough to come up with anything really forward looking, so what you get is a show whose core is from the 60's and 60's technology, by a guy who really wasn't a science fiction writer in the true sense of the word.
Of course it isn't going to embrace all sorts of transhumanism and robotics and AI. Half the episodes are about fear of that, as you point out. It's almost like it's anti-sc-fi.
Isn't every successful TV series a refelction of it's audience?
All of the angst in the original ST series reflected social concerns of the '60s and most of it seem ridiculous when viewed today.
The prime directive?
Give me an F--ing break.
Racial relations?
Better today that they were portrayed 400 years in the future.
The Borg was - probably unwittingly - a great commentary on collectivist idealism. At least, we can give it that much applause.
As for the human enhancement apprehension in general... that stems back to the Eugenics Wars period, of which Noonien Soong was a player.
Khan was partially right about improving man, though: "Nothing ever changes, except man. Your technical accomplishments? Improve a mechanical device and you may double productivity. But improve man and you gain a thousand fold. I am such a man." Need the technological advance, but the problems with human behavior is no joke.
I mean, except for Kirk kicking his ass, but come on, that's Kirk. Nature has a lot of tricks up its sleeve.
It's funny; there is an inverse relationship over the course of the show to the frequency that the saucer was separated, to the frequency with which Dianna Troi was separated. That slut.
You can also write off any episode with Whoopi.
You can also write off any episode with Whoopi.
Kirk didn't rely on the wisdom of some old intergalactic janitor to get him out of trouble.
It's Deanna, but keep calling her Dianna, anyway.
Don't forget his ability to free climb Half Dome.
Talk about yer science fiction!
Well, that one was directed by Shatner himself.
It is deliciously self-aggrandizing that he does that and then is the only person sensible to argue with "God."
I need to actually watch Wrath of Khan one of these days.
Bah. No wonder you like Picard. The Wrath of Kahn is Shatner's finest work.
Wrath of Khan is a must, but for original series awesomeness I'd like to recommend, say, "The City on the Edge of Forever" (written by Harlan Ellison) or "The Enemy Within" (written by Richard Matheson).
I'm a little afraid to watch anything written by Harlan Ellison.
I bet you can guess why.
But I will make a note!
Say, there is a discussion we've never engaged in here. At least, I don't think we have.
Of Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway, and Archer (TV versions only, to keep things simple), what pizza would they like? Not just deep dish or thin, any pizza whatsoever that you think each captain would like.
Kirk - hamburger pizza with jalepenos, on a new york style crust, tastes great, but leaves a fire in your ass
Picard - elemental cheese margharita pizza in a fired in a brick oven with a glass of wine. Sophisticated, but you kind of feel douchy having pizza and wine
Sisko - Deep dish seafood pizza served with Abita beer. satisfies all, but some pansies just can't handle the deliscious bottom feeding crustaceans.
Janeway - Cheese pizza with ketchup sauce and she'll cry if you don't say its amazing
Archer - Pizza found in the back alley by a homeless man. Forgotten, alone and ultimately inconsequential.
I'm actually losing control here at work reading the Archer pizza.
Uncanny.
I swear that I didn't see this before posting.
Kirk: anything from a chain with fake cheeze baked in the crust
Picard: some fancy wood-fired shit with clams and arugula on it...and monkey cheeze(it's tuesday after all)
Sisko: (don't know who this guy is) NY style pepperoni, simple classic
Janeway: mottled rotten mung on a plate deep dish, oh yeah, all the fucking way
Archer: (don't know who this guy is either, but I picture a dude eating cold Geno's pizza rolls)
Good call. Sisko's dad was a chef though, so he might only go for authentic Pizza Margherita or something like that.
Chef from New Orleans goddamnit.
So crawdad pizza with okra, pretty spicy.
Well, Archer was as close to a hunter/gatherer than any other Trek captain, as replicators had yet to be invented in that part of Starfleet history.
Kirk tried to carve up Mother Space with arbitrary lines of Privation Property.
Kirk: Pepperoni and mushrooms, relatively thin crust
Picard: However French people make pizza
Sisko: deep dish, extra cheese
Archer: Little Caesar's, whatever the best deal is at the moment
Archer: Hawaiian pizza from Pizza Hut, stuffed crust, extra pineapple
What is French pizza? Pizza on some sort of croissant or cr?pe? Truffles (okay, I could go there, 'cause I love truffles)? Rich, creamy sauces?
I have no idea. Could be good, though; something with foie gras on it.
Savory tarts are the closet thing to French pizza that is not consciously aping Italian styles.
What is French pizza?
Haven't you ever heard of Stouffers?
Jeeze, freakin provincial Americans! You act like you've never been outside of Dixie.
I thought French pizza was Chef Boyardee. Or is that Franco-American? I always get those confused.
Epi, the Kirk Pizza would be nothing but ham and cheese, no crust.
Amend that to "ham and cheese on a piece of scenery". Maybe the styrofoam boulder the Gorn tossed at him in that fight on Cestus III.
Kirk's pizza would be something exotic--but you'd never find out exactly what it was 'cos it'd be forgotten as soon as he got the waitress panties off.
Picard would get anchovy pie and then ask Gerordi what was wrong with the replicator.
Sisko would eat whatever pizza Jake and Nog cooked up as their new pizza stand on the promenade(which would, of course, lead to another Special episode of DS9.
Janeway would grimace and eat Neelix' 'interpretation' of pizza. Exactly what kind of crappy replicators did they have on that stupid ship? Picard got his ass booted to the same sector and his replicators kept working.
Archer would travel back in time to just before pizza was invented and somehow make all opizza, from then on, just a little bit less delightful. Dean Stocwell would be there, chiding him amusingly for screwing it up--'Oregano, Sam, not origami!(laugh track)
A journey through William Shatner's 50-year career
http://www.theglobeandmail.com.....le2203310/
watch out for STD's on that road.
Lucy, flirting with Episiarch to increase your hit count is...is...is...
...bound to be highly effective.
I think we should have a discussion about why Episiarch's hair looks like he combed it with his foot.
Because I did? I'm very flexible, you know. Next subject?
I know: why is Terra Nova so fucking terrible even with all that money they have behind it?
My answer: because Brannon Braga is the showrunner.
That's like saying water is wet. Braga = Bad is a tautology.
I can get why some people might find Terra Nova entertaining at a very basic, thoughtless level. The real question is how the hell Whitney is still on the air. That show sodomizes the concept of comedy on a weekly basis.
Whitney: The best thing to happen to women in comedy since Paula Poundstone was brought up on child molestation charges.
True, but how long did According to Jim last?
I got to say I feel sorry for Courtney Throne-Smith. She spends 7 seasons married to Jim Belushi and now she's crawled over to Two and a Half Men to be with Jon Cryer.
You suckers who were dumb enough to even watch Whitney for lulz make me laugh. There's stupid, and then there's retarded. You know who else was retarded? Yup, Chris Burke.
That show sodomizes the concept of comedy on a weekly basis.
I got to wonder, if its filmed in front of a live studio audience, why does it still sound like its got a laugh track?
Whitney looks like a terrible show. Apparently she is supposed to be cute and sexy? If I wanted to watch a girl who looked and talked like a dude, I'd watch Rosie O'Donnell.
That show sodomizes the concept of comedy on a weekly basis.
It doesn't help that its lead actress has a porn star-type name.
Do we really need to go any further? Braga is King Midas in reverse.
OK, next question: who was dumb enough to make Braga the showrunner? They have watched Next Generation, right? "Look, I want to create a specific situation, so I'll backfill my plot to get to that situation, even if it makes no sense!"
TACHYON FIELDS FIX ALL PLOT HOLES.
and wormholes...and bolt holes...and a...other holes.
Well, let's not forget phase modulation. Shift a phase, and all is right. Or wrong. They should've called it Phase Trek.
Rick Berman. The 2nd most famous person with Down's Syndrome in show business.
Is Garth Brooks the most famous?
No, Chris Martin.
But have you ever noticed a similarity between pro golfer Lee Westwood, and Corky from Life Goes On?
Rick Berman was calling the shots. Braga started out as an intern, thereby ruining the concept of interns forevermore.
That's a good question. How much were the Bs to blame for the weaknesses that ran through the Trek franchises?
Hard to say; Gene didn't die until a few years in, so he's at least partially responsible.
Really, Gene was a dope. What made the original Trek so good was that they got a lot of excellent writers to do their episodes, such as Richard Matheson, Harlon Ellison, Theodore Sturgeon, and so on, instead of people like Braga who couldn't write his way out of a paper tachyon field.
Where Roddenberry went wrong is where Lucas went wrong--getting caught up in the merchandising. He reportedly was absentee chasing product deals around during the third season.
I think he was fairly good at focusing on good stories on the first run. He and some of the other Star Trek leadership that is.
How much did Ron Moore contribute to the good parts of latter-day Trek?
Moore co-wrote Braga's first episode, so in a sense, it's all on him.
Judging by the fact that Moore's other projects have at least been acceptable, he probably was a countering force to the suckhole of Berman and Braga.
Can you image if he hadn't been there?
Yes. Voyager. Moore's sole contribution was Jeri Ryan. Okay, I made that up, but it is consistent with the narrative.
I bet when all is one and one are all, we'll learn that Braga and Berman actually did the last season of BSG.
Moore was the supervising producer for DS9 from the beginning of its third season until it ended.
The episode Ellison wrote is said to bear almost no relation to the one that aired. Apparently he completely ignored the show bible.
Is Episiarch's foot detachable?
Just my penis.
Which is a trick answer, as one and both are the same.
Douchbagius Phallopodus
Somewhere in our galaxy is an intelligent race of phallopods. With our luck, that will be who we get for first contact by the Galactic Confederation.
They are too caught up in their toenail circumcision wars to pay us any mind.
An epic conflict indeed. Probably the reason they aren't sending us any messages.
I thought they were fighting crabs from a black hole.
Their entire race almost died out two centuries ago because they refused to wear flip-flops in the showers at the gym.
Gotta watch where you step when you're a phallopod.
Michael Lind's preference is for more spending, but a government still willing to go to war!
Which is, err, somehow totally different from GWB and Obama!
Sometimes I like when people sum up my unwieldy blog posts with two excellent sentences.
(But don't do it all the time, okay? I have to get paid here.)
In a sane and just world, Michael Lind would be walking by the site of one of these protests when he would be set upon by a mob of protesters. They would drag him into the midst of their mob and begin to pummel him with sticks, rocks, and their fists.
He would attempt to flee, crawling on his hands and knees to escape this beating. He would be breathing heavily and weeping. Every time, we would be drug back into the mob.
His feeling of claustrophobia would increase when his eyes swell shut from the beating. His pasty white skin quickly turning purple from the bruising. He would only have the energy to emit a few, pathetic moans in protest, which would be drowned out by the cacophony of the mob.
His last moments on Earth would be ones of intense physical pain and pure terror.
Afterwards, his corpse would be abused further as it is striped naked and bludgeoned until the skin and flesh tears open and his guts pour out.
His former loved ones would take turns urinating and defecating upon what is left of his corpse.
Finally, it would be left in the street to be consumed by scavengers.
"His former loved ones would take turns urinating and defecating upon what is left of his corpse."
Naah. No one wants to stand in a line that long.
Geez. How depressing is it that the Tea Parties -whose message was basically "STOP SPENDING MONEY WE DON'T HAVE!!!"- has somehow been made to be "extreme".
Seriously, being "extreme" = frugality .
I don't want to live on this planet anymore.
I see Tea Parties as extreme like mountain biking. Only hipsters hate tea parties, so really tea partiers are better.
Cutting even ONE PENNY of anything other than military spending, will immediately send old people and children to their graves!!!
Well, if you're in a crowd and then the rest of the crowd steps out onto the RR tracks, you're on the extreme if you don't. It's always relative.
The left cares about civil liberties?
Who knew?
"The left cares about civil liberties?"
IT'S A TRAP!!!!!!
Kind of in the same way the Nazis cared about the Jews.
Hey! We ONLY look the other way when Our Side makes Nazi references!
Not those Nazis. The, um, other Nazis.
We resemble that remark, Jew-lover!
I don't think this country has ever seen anything quite like the radical antigovernment quality of the tea party and the GOP (increasingly the same thing). It's bizarre in a couple ways: the sheer mileage that a Reagan platitude about government being the problem has gotten over the years, and the level of power they've achieved.
What this country has done before is FDR-style liberalism, and quite successfully. Just exactly what historical era can tea partiers point to to illustrate the success of their ideas?
Oh, knock it the fuck off, Tony. You know good and goddamned well the GOP loves government just as much as Team Blue does... just in different ways.
Or is it only "okay" when anarchists are Team Blue-y?
Oh, and... fuck FDR.
If revering Reagan is bad, m'kay, then revering FDR should be equally bad, m'kay.
Why? Reagan was a disaster as a president, and FDR among the best.
They were both presidents who increased the size, scope, and cost of government, Tony.
Either they're both good, or they're both evil.
Still looking for the "radical antigovernment" element, Tony.
Tea Partiers, after all, still love government - okay, not the way YOU love it, but that's a different dirt road.
But, seriously... how is Team Red going to get us into nation-building, continue the War on Drugs and prevent gays from eventually getting legally divorced, if they don't have huge, steaming piles of government?
How long was the Depression during Reagan's Presidency?
HAHAHAHAHA!!!
This is spoof, right?
Doesn't really matter either way.
George W. Bush and Barack Obama have been LBJ-style liberalism. Herbert Hoover was FDR-style liberalism.
Harding, Coolidge, and Bill Clinton.
Also Grover Cleveland, the Bill Clinton of his day.
Have you read the federalist papers? Those guys were scared as sh*t about government power. I really hope this is a spoof.
But they weren't scared of government as an institution! They recognized that there's always going to be a government. They were scared of tyrannical government.
They had good reason to be scared of tyrannical government.
As should we, without regard to which Team is leading the effort to construct it.
"But they weren't scared of government as an institution!"
That's a lie, shithead.
Yes, Rand Paul proposed the radical idea of eventually balancing the budget, and cutting spending all the way back to the dark ages of 2006, before the bailouts. Yikes!
Rand Paul posted a comment on his FB page today about an exchange he had with Geithner about the housing crisis. There is supposed to be a vid later on.
Re: Stoopid In Amerika,
You're right in one thing at least: You don't think.
The TP and the GOP are not anti-government anarchists. I know because I am an anarcho-capitalist, and I can tell you: Those guys ain't anarcho-capitalist.
25% unemployed and 250,000 American lives snuffed out in a war that FDR provoked himself is the measure of success for the little bloodthirsty economic destroyer inside Tony.
What's more astounding is that Lind lumps Obama and Bush together as centrists, considers that a virtue, mentions they both love war and power projection, and the only thing you can talk about is...the Tea Party? Really? No mention of Obama = Reagan = blood for oil?
Don't you think these people will quickly abandon their ideals once they realize they have to pay much more in taxes to accomplish all this? It'll be like when a kid realizes that Santa Claus doesn't exist and that you have to work to pay for gifts yourself.
Don't you think these people will quickly abandon their ideals once they realize they have to pay much more in taxes to accomplish all this?
No, because lifelong sponges will always figure out a way to keep sponging. the minute they think someone's going to take away their gimmedats, all hell will break loose.
As pointed out earlier in this essay, Herbert Hoover's own version of a "New Deal" had hiked the top marginal income tax rate from 24 to 63 percent in 1932. But he was a piker compared to his tax-happy successor. Under Roosevelt, the top rate was raised at first to 79 percent and then later to 90 percent. Economic historian Burton Folsom notes that in 1941 Roosevelt even proposed a whopping 99.5-percent marginal rate on all incomes over $100,000. "Why not?" he said when an advisor questioned the idea.[40]
After that confiscatory proposal failed, Roosevelt issued an executive order to tax all income over $25,000 at the astonishing rate of 100 percent. He also promoted the lowering of the personal exemption to only $600, a tactic that pushed most American families into paying at least some income tax for the first time. Shortly thereafter, Congress rescinded the executive order, but went along with the reduction of the personal exemption. ...
http://www.mackinac.org/4035
Another reason to say "fuck FDR", for even contemplating such a bullshit punishment.
*silence*
Of course he did win WWII and build the government that created the modern world. Nobody's perfect.
So, there was no government until FDR built it. Right.
And he won WWII, even though he died before it was finished AND he didn't want to get involved at all until Pearl Harbor. Gotcha.
Yep, that FDR was almost God Himself.
To radically simplify things, FDR invented Big Government, and it won WWII, created the middle class and history's most productive and prosperous people, built an expansive national infrastructure, and did almost all of the basic research and technology development that forms the backbone of the modern economy you worship.
But we can't do any of that anymore because David and Charles Koch think they don't have enough freedom.
"To radically simplify things, FDR invented Big Government, and it won WWII,"
Yes, wars are the favorite pass-time of government, shithead.
Uh, sure, Tony. Whatever makes you a True Believer in The Church of Fuck The Private Sector.
To radically simplify things, you are still batting zero.
Tony must be okay with FDR's attempt to impose a 99.5% tax on FDR-Era Evil Rich People.
FDR invented Big Government, and it won WWII
The English, Soviets, and A-bomb beg to differ. And how great a job did it do in Vietnam?
created the middle class and history's most productive and prosperous people
Or the previously-mentioned elminating all possible competition. The reduced amount of government regulation in the 1950's compared to just thirty years later?
built an expansive national infrastructure
I think the guy you're looking for is named Eisenhower.
and did almost all of the basic research and technology development that forms the backbone of the modern economy you worship.
I think what you're referring to is Bell Labs.
To radically simplify things, FDR invented Big Government, and it won WWII, created the middle class and history's most productive and prosperous people, built an expansive national infrastructure, and did almost all of the basic research and technology development that forms the backbone of the modern economy you worship.
Horseshit--Big Government didn't do any of those things. They were accomplished by people that were far more creative, intelligent, literate, hard-working, and socially stable than today's current crop of nose-picking slackers, and it was done for FAR cheaper than the massive, bloated beast in place today.
To claim that The Almighty State accomplished these things is making the same presumptions that the DoD makes about war--that society is a static, inanimate interaction between forces that can be centrally manipulated at will, and that elements of "friction" and unpredictablity can be ignored.
You've said some remarkably stupid things in your time here, but that one tops them all.
We had a booming post-WWII economy mostly because people needed stuff afterwards... cars, homes, appliances, and other shit that drives a free market.
Don'tcha just hate that, Tony?
"Of course he did win WWII"
No kidding, shithead. In what unit did he fight?
Don't you think these people will quickly abandon their ideals once they realize they have to pay much more in taxes to accomplish all this?
There's really no precedent for that.
Psychologically, what the taxed want is to tax, not to be taxed less. And that reactionary-sadistic "Get them, too!" instinct is strongly socially reinforced. Anything else is "extreme," y'see? And racist. And...y'know, Palin.
The state doesn't grow by not gratifying the people's id. It's the monster from it.
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
30% Influence of corporate/moneyed/special interests
...
21% Partisanship
So in other words, the real complaint of a majority of the OWS protestors is that other people have political opinions different from theirs, and those people organize themselves into groups, buy advertising, support candidates, etc.
Typical.
30% Influence of corporate/moneyed/special interests
Imma goonna get me a PAC, raise a bunch 'a dough, and go down to Warshinton DeeCee to fight them there "special interest groups"!
Waaaaait a minute...
Oh, you bastards!
This may be the most telling statistic in the whole bunch. I would guess that my fellow libertarians would rank entrenched bureaucracy extremely high on their list. Who's "anti-establishment" now?
And in the spirit of full disclosure, this is the most surprising to me. I get 78% of my news from NPR. Using that as my gauge of what the left thinks, Bush Tax Cuts get mentioned approximately 16 times an hour.
So, serious question, can I infer that only the mainstream media left believe that Bush Tax Cuts are the source of our country's woes?
Pretty much, Paul. Bush Tax Cuts, in fact, cause ingrown toenails, premature ejaculation, Death Itself, and a poor garage-sale turnout... among infinity other things.
Just go to any liberal website, they'll back all that up.
What's really insane is how small those tax cuts are in dollars compared to everything else. Running around yelling, "Bush tax cuts!" about just about anything today is pretty much the same as tattooing "I am an idiot" on your forehead.
No I'm don't!
Since when is $2.8 trillion a drop in the bucket?
Don't spend 2.8 trillion dollars, then.
Cut spending by 2.8 billion dollars for ten years.
Viola! As I said the day I flunked French class.
Because Bush inspired such confidence in his policy skills that we should just assume his tax rates are the correct ones.
You couldn't form a coherent thought to save your life, shithead.
Just freeze spending for X years, and leave tax rates alone.
Shit, Tony, why is everything all "rich people suck, throw rocks at them" with you liberals?
The lower rate is always the correct one.
Using the far-right Washington Post as my source, they largely debunk that 2.8 trillion figure, and come to a more modest (but arguably high) figure of 1.3 trillion.
Unfortunately, I take the broader view and believe that setting people free shouldn't be seen as a line-item cost to the government.
I might agree that they shouldn't set wealthier Americans free first, but it's a start, especially since my employment has traditionally come from wealthier Americans. I mean, that guy on the corner with the sign, "Need a beer" hasn't ever given me a job.
http://500motivators.com/plog-.....e-down.jpg
I know you don't take the issue seriously because you think any and all tax cuts are a good thing. Just don't pretend you also care about fiscal responsibility.
"I know you don't take the issue seriously because you think any and all tax cuts are a good thing. Just don't pretend you also care about fiscal responsibility."
There's nothing separating the two, shithead.
I've never called for more tax cuts, Tony... although, using liberal logic, leaving tax rates right where they are at this very moment = a tax cut; I get that, we've all heard it for that matter.
But Team Blue giving half a shit about fiscal responsibility? It is to laugh, sir.
I didn't say that, but they are much better than Team Red if you care to look at any shred of the evidence. You prefer to think in talk radio stereotypes? Oh, okay. Can someone not in the special ed section of H&R talk to me?
"I didn't say that, but they are much better than Team Red if you care to look at any shred of the evidence."
You're lying through your teeth, shithead.
Team Blue is spending more borrowed money, just like Team Red did when Li'l Bush was in charge.
Team Blue had a chance to shitcan the Patriot Act, but they chose to keep virtually the whole fucking thing.
Team Blue bitched about Iraq and Afghanistan, then got us intertwined in Libya and, now, Uganda.
All that shit costs money, Tony.
Therefore, Team Blue is just as fucktarded as Team Red was when they had The Gleaming Rod of Power.
Just as. How convenient for a mind not to have to bother itself with nuance on the order of trillions of dollars and thousands of lives.
"Just as. How convenient for a mind not to have to bother itself with nuance on the order of trillions of dollars and thousands of lives."
Care to try this in English, shithead? I know you speak innuendo perfectly, but I threw out my shithead-decoder ring.
How convenient for a mind not to have to bother itself with nuance on the order of trillions of dollars and thousands of lives.
$1.3 trillion (or $2.8 trillion) comes out to $130 billion (or $280 billion) a year over the last ten years.
The current deficit is $1.2 trillion, so clearly the Bush tax cuts are not the sole problem here.
Try doing basic math sometime, dickhead.
You mean evidence like them not submitting a budget for about 900 days?
I take the issue extremely seriously. I also believe most tax cuts are a good thing. And the reason I believe that most tax cuts are a good thing is because as a libertarian, fiscal responsibility is one of my #1 issues in regards to how the government should run its affairs.
It's the mock-keynsians who explicitly eschew fiscal responsibility. Because "fiscal responsibility" is seen as a thin veil for being mean and uncompassionate.
But I'll take your evasion of the point of my post as a hat-tip in my favor. Every time I think you can do better than talking points, you frustratingly fall back on them.
Sorry, all tax cuts are good because they increase freedom, and therefore we'll take what we can get and not even pay attention to who they're going to or what we have to cut, presumably because the tax cuts will simply force the issue, is the opposite of responsible governance or fiscal prudence.
Takes a run-on sentence to prove you're an ignoramus, shithead?
Yes, "just as".
There's no need to overcomplicate life, Tony; it's fucking complicated enough as it is, without having to compound on it artificially.
Way to look down your nose at me yet again, though, you arrogant prick.
Spread out over 10 years, it's only $280 billion/year, which is about 7% of annual federal expenditures, and about 21% of the federal operating deficit.
Also worth noting that the $2.8 trillion figure includes a substantial portion of which was the tax cut to lower income individuals.
Team Blue cheerleaders like Tony can't acquiesce to the logic of zero-line budgeting, let alone - GASP! - cutting spending.
That's kind of what's confusing me. And I'm being deadly serious, which for my snarky narrow ass, is painfully difficult.
I honestly believed that everyone left of Margaret Thatcher's slighly more conservative Uncle who was too conservative for the Torries believed that Bush Tax Cuts caused the Zombie apocalypse, AKA the Great Recession.
In fact, isn't Van Jones's "Our Future Was Robbed(tm)" speaking tour or whatever the hell he calls it have that as a bullet point? Fuck that, I'll Google it.
*tap*tap*tap*
First hit:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/201.....-the-math/
Picture caption:
Topics: bush tax cuts [emphasis Paul] ? deficit ? Math ? shepard fairey ? tax ? tax loopholes
From the article:
So yeah, can we then conclude that Van Jones' packed auditoriums don't contain OWS protesters?
Fuck Van Jones, too.
Despite the Bush/Obama tax cuts and two serious recession, federal tax revenues have increased by 9 percent in the past 10 years (1.991T in FY2001, 2.174T in FY2011). Federal spending in that same time has increased by 105 percent (1.863T in FY2001, 3.819T in FY2011).
The disparity in spending over revenues is a feature in the Keynesian world, not a bug.
Oh, by the way, I heard on NP fucking R this morning that Keynesian theory is "out of vogue". I nearly drove off the road.
That's damn near treason talk from NPR. MediaMatters will give them such a spanking... probably.
Which for NPR is the functional equivalent of a 50 year old finally accepting the fact that there is no Santa Claus.
Great analogy, Gilbert.
This is hilarious.
Seriously, does anyone here not think that mating rituals motivate at least half of the "protesters"?
Wow, that is great.
I am totally going to buy that Alf shirt, also.
Is there any problem Cracked can't fix?
I saw my first Occupiers on the way home from work on Friday in this sleep Southern California town. Mostly white-haired older folks with signs that were unreadable from the street. One I liked was "End the tyranny, end the wars", but others were less promising, like "save education, fix the budget" [meaning spend more on educator and administrator salaries and benefits, even though they are far more generous here than in many other states.]
There's a good essay by Walter Williams where he exposes the hypocrisy of the left when it comes to this "income inequality" canard.
Pitting Us Against Each Other
By Walter Williams
[excerpt]
If this is merely a canard to you, then you aren't paying attention.
You know how I know you guys are (possibly unwitting) apologists for plutocrats much more than you care about freedom? Because everything that's wrong in the world you blame on government, but you don't seem to find anything wrong with the egregious increase in income and wealth inequality over the last few decades. Is that, alone among all other outcomes, a product of a free market untainted by government meddling?
Why the fuck is wealth concentration such a big de-
Oh, never mind... I know the answer to that.
Seriously... Mother Fucking Jones?
It has pretty graphs for you. Care to point out where they're lying?
"Care to point out where they're lying?"
Lying about what? The claim is irrelevant, shithead.
Because the increasing concentration of wealth is a product of a free and fair market, so it should be worshiped as the demands of the free market gods? I wonder how that one aspect of society managed to sneak past all the oppressive big government.
"Because the increasing concentration of wealth is a product of a free and fair market, so it should be worshiped as the demands of the free market gods"
Because it's irrelevant, shithead.
Irrelevant because you don't want to think about the implications?
"Irrelevant because you don't want to think about the implications?"
Selling "protection" now, shithead?
By this logic, we should be levying punitive fines on anybody who has ever taken advantage of welfare. We can directly calculate how much wealth they obtained from the government.
By this logic, we should be levying punitive fines on anybody who has ever taken advantage of welfare.
Every time I tell Tony that if the poor want their services, they better be willing to pay for it, I end up getting a lot of BLOO BLOO BLOOing about "fairness."
Services cost money. If the poor don't want to get their skin in the game to pay for it, then fuck them.
Don't fucking patronize me, Mr. I'm Better Than You Because I Went to College and Belong to Team Blue.
That was for Tony, Jordan.
And ignorant Mother Jones article proves nothing, shithead.
The entire article is based on begging the question.
I wouldn't wipe my cat's ass with that magazine.
I like Jude Wanniski's rebuttal to Paul Krugman.
http://motherjones.com/toc/1996/11/jack-and-jude
He opens with:
Required reading.
"Nobody actually pays Krugman for his economic counsel, or they would soon be bankrupt."
That's not true. He was a consultant for Enr... oh.
Whenever I see or hear some moron complaining about the Bush tax cuts I ask them "why do you hate the poor?"
Although I prefer cake I have a great recipe for Occu pie.
1. Locate a bakery
2. Scream till you get pie.
Bon Appetit.
No one has yet complimented you on this. It is FUNNY!
But you get it in the face.
Like I always told Squeeky, if you want to look more center left, just stand next to really crazy people.
It's been a long day & maybe I'm tired, but Lind's first quoted para above just seems grammatically & technically incoherent.
Of course, this is the guy who argued that the US should have fought the Vietnam War to prove to the Russians that we had the will to do so but then, once a certain number of troops had been killed, pull out.
"The goal of progressive-liberals has been to save American capitalism by reforming it, not to replace it"
What a load of bullshit.
Capitalism has survived DESPITE liberal meddling - not because of it.
Of course. But there's definitely a strong contingent of people who claim to believe in capitalism plus a million or so regulations to make it nice and fair.
"there's definitely a strong contingent of people who claim to believe in capitalism plus a million or so regulations to make it nice and fair."
These would be the same people who claim capitalism as *assisted* by Frannie and Freddy caused the housing bust.
Regulations and government intervention place friction on the economy. At some point, the engine stops.
The protestors want to stop the engine.
Sorry, not just the protestors. The statists, particularly from the left.
I would like to add something to that open-ended thing:
Mass exodus of OWSers to the UK.
(For anyone wondering, British Airways once set my luggage on fire.)
You know who else rose to power by claiming to be a moderating force against both radical socialists and classical liberal capitalists?
Khrushchev?
FDR?
Am I close?
Sorry, I was thinking of Oprah.
DING! DING! DING!
We got a WEINER!
I WISH Lind was right in the hope that the Democrats will be pushed to an old-left style liberalism; look at the comments in the Slate article, though:almost none of them are positive. Lind is a corporate-apologist who should be hanging from a lamppost with all the other running dogs, according to many of the posters. I don't see any hope for the left, and I wish I could.
"replace income tax with flat tax"
WHAT!? You know an idea has reached it's time when even 5% of its most ardent opponents want it.