How Centralized Government Medicine Will Work - Prostate Cancer Screening Example
The Washington Post is reporting today that a government appointed panel, U.S. Preventive Services Task Force, has recommended that using the prostate specific antigen test to screen for prostate cancer is likely to cause more harm than good. More harm than good for whom? The government task force concluded:
"After about 10 years, PSA-based screening results in small or no reduction in prostate cancer-specific mortality and is associated with harms related to subsequent evaluation and treatments, some of which may be unnecessary," the 116-page review concluded.
The task force plans to recommend downgrading of PSA testing to a "D" rating. The D rating means that "there is moderate or high certainty that the service has no net benefit or that the harms outweigh the benefits," according to the task force Web site.
OK as far as it goes. However, the Post further reports:
"Unfortunately, the best evidence is that while some men might be helped by screening, others would be harmed, and on balance the test is not useful overall," said Howard Brody of the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston.
On balance for whom? In this context it seems that the "balance" is being weighted toward what is good for the bottom lines of health care payors, not the patients. Others in the Post article disagree that the tests should not be provided to men:
"The bottom line is that we should encourage screening because it will give men the full range of options to avoid death from prostate cancer," said William J. Catalona of the Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine.
That sounds right to me. Allow patients to obtain the information that they think is relevant to their health so that they can choose how they want to be treated. Men should expect to pay more for insurance policies that cover the test or pay for it out-of-pocket. The problem with centralized control over health insurance and care is that those payment options would be closed and patients would be stuck with the tests and treatments that others have decided are good for them.
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I always thought 'death panel' was a needlessly hokey term that was more likely to inspire backlash than awareness. But this certainly seems to fit the profile. You're one of the, say, 2% who would benefit from the test? Sorry, Medicare's broke and it wouldn't be fair to let those with means to go above baseline...
and remember, last year or so there was a similar push regarding mammograms. Women were told they could put those off, too.
I seem to recall a story like that two years ago in the run-up to the vote on Obamacare, except that it only suggested that women might not need to start mammograms so early. The story was couched in tones of, "We're so sorry to confuse you", which frankly infuriated me.
The ribbon bully disease gets one treatment; others get the finger.
"others get the finger."
Well done.
Dick Panels.
Go with the wood grain. Nothing says classy like wood grain dick panels.
Allow patients to obtain the information that they think is relevant to their health so that they can choose how they want to be treated.
Wha? I RTFA and am still missing the the part where the tests are now illegal.
And are you advocating that the Government shouldn't be using science to decide what treatments it will or will not pay for?
I don't understand this post at all, which is a rarity for a Ron Bailey post.
Read it again in 10 years. It'll be crystal clear then.
The "**bottom** line is that we should encourage screening
ZING!
Men should expect to pay more for insurance policies that cover the test or pay for it out-of-pocket.
Men should expect to pay more for insurance policies that cover OB/GYN, mental health, substance abuse, chiropractic and a slew of other unnecessary shit too. I don't think the "paying less" for policies without is going to be an option.
I'll have to RTFA, but this post seems to misunderstand what a D rating means. It means that you are better off using a different test if you are worried about the disease. Having the test doesn't give you useful information. Those that benefit are benefiting from the better follow up tests that the PSA triggered. They might as well skip the PSA and go right for the biopsy.
This is a good point. If the test really isn't any better than flipping a coin,then Medicare sure as hell should not be paying for it. I don't know if that is the case with this.
Of course the test should still be allowed. People should be allowed to find out any true thing they want to about their own bodies, genomes, etc.
If only there were some way to arrange things so that people could decide for themselves whether paying for such things is desirable or not...
30% of those with a positive PSA will end up having cancer. Of those that have prostate cancer, the majority will have no health problems as a result of that cancer. The PSA doesn't help sort out who will and won't have a negative outcome from their cancer. What it does is help men who are worried about prostate cancer avoid getting a biopsy if they probably don't need it.
I am very confused by the combination of Ron's post, the linked article, and your comments.
What exactly is the "harm" the PSA test inflicts on men? I don't see that mentioned anywhere.
It seems to me a PSA test would be better than going straight to a biopsy from a cost and pain standpoint...
My understanding is the PSA test has a high rate of false positives (for one thing) AND a true positive doesn't necessarily mean you need further treatment. Apparently every man gets prostate cancer but for most you'll be long dead before it would have threatened your health. So PSA tests can lead to unnecessary biopsies and more invasive procedures with all the attendant risks.
Here's a fairly succinct article.
The harm comes from unnecessary treatment done as a result of a positive PSA. People find a harmless condition that looks a lot like a dangerous one, treat the harmless one as if it were the dangerous one. That treatment results in loss of erections, incontinence, pain, etc... all things that would not have happened if you hadn't had a PSA.
And remember, 70% of the men who get a positive PSA will get that biopsy to rule out cancer when they don't need it. A PSA makes it more likely you will get an unnecessary biopsy, not less.
The link...oops
http://www.familymedicine.vcu......index.html
And Mainer said it better than I did.
Essentially, if your Dad or brothers had a dangerous form of prostate cancer, you should probably take steps to find it early. PSA can help you avoid unneeded biopsy if you fall in this group. But if you don't...you are put at greater risk of harm by the PSA than by blissful ignorance.
The harm of a false positive PSA is an unnecessary biopsy.
The (possible) harm of a missed cancer due to foregoing PSA testing is metastatic cancer.
Unfortuntately, there is no great screening test for prostate cancer. And prostate cancer is both undertreated and overtreated routinely.
The (possible) harm of a missed cancer due to foregoing PSA testing is metastatic cancer.
True enough.
See Ice Nine's comment below.
Most men are not well served by the PSA.
I thought the TSA was already administering a prostate check to airline passengers.
If you only knew how many different kinds of plastic explosives and feces share similar textures and densities, you would pray to God we went all the way in to our elbows.
STOP RESISTING!
The problem with centralized control over health insurance and care is that those payment options would be closed and patients would be stuck with the tests and treatments that others have decided are good for them.
The problem being, most people consider this a feature, not a bug.
That isn't what is actually going on here. The problem is that PSA is a very unspecific test for screening purposes, as compared to diagnostic purposes, and the number of men who benefit is small compared to the number who are left impotent, or incontinent or occasionally dead because of unneeded treatment.
The decision regards screening the entire population, not treating individual patients. They are two different issues entirely. FWIW, my HMO quit doing annual PSA and DRE screening exams in 2005.
Rick-
Please expand on this comment:
and the number of men who benefit is small compared to the number who are left impotent, or incontinent or occasionally dead because of unneeded treatment.
The problem with centralized control over health insurance and care is that those payment options would be closed and patients would be stuck with the tests and treatments that others have decided are good for them.
As MP notes, there is nothing about the payer deciding which tests it finds worthwhile or not that changes if the "insurance" is government or private. Now if there were a healthcare monopoly, the issue would be access to the test/tx/rx, but the risk of the US enforcing a government run monopoly on PROVIDING healthcare seems vanishingly small.
That was an interesting feature of the Canuckistan system until their Supremes struck it down.
It has zero chance of ever happening here. When single payer comes to pass, we'll also have a two tier system, one for schulbs and one for the rich who can afford to pay twice.
Just like schools.
If we're lucky.
Not often we get a libertoid troll.
Which I guess is saying something, considering the overwhelming presence of l's and L's here.
troll?
but the risk of the US enforcing a government run monopoly on PROVIDING healthcare seems vanishingly small.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...[inhales]...HAHAHAHAHAHA.
[sigh]
Healthcare is a right of all Americans, and is simply too important to leave in the hands of a greedy, corrupt private sector. That's why I'm making a complete liberation of health care from the greedy CEOs a major platform of my Presidency.
Vote Coeus 2020
(Oh yeah, that seems really far-fetched. Shit, I can see someone running on that in 2012)
But I'd still say it is far fetched. As far as I know Canada was the only system that really had a monopoly on provision of healthcare and that is gone now, apparently. There is plenty of real shit to get worked up about without adding a bunch of groundless speculation.
As far as I know Canada was the only system that really had a monopoly on provision of healthcare
Well, off the top of my head, there's the Brits.
They have single payer, but I'm pretty sure they have private hospitals in the UK and you can buy private insurance if you want to and can afford it. The same is true in the rest of Europe as far as I know.
I'm not trying to say anything about the merits of any policy. Just trying to keep the discussion a bit grounded. It is easy for us to get carried away talking about healthcare systems. There are plenty of good moral and practical reasons why government run healthcare is a bad idea. But too many people on here go on as if socialized medicine is necessarily some sort of horror-show all the time. I know quite a few people who live in Britain and Europe and they are almost universally quite satisfied with the medical care available to them. Does that mean we should imitate those systems? Hell no. Europe is falling apart and now of all times it should be obvious that such systems won't work in the long term (or without a big player like the US paying a lot of the bills).
..and can afford it...
You would have a system where one citizen can buy better health care because he has more money...you ogre
I know quite a few people who live in Britain and Europe and they are almost universally quite satisfied with the medical care available to them.
When all you ever eat is a shit sandwich, they just taste like sandwiches to you.
Several of these people are Americans and know how it works here. Not that the American sandwich of healthcare is completely shit-free.
Of course it isn't, largely due to government meddling in insurance in the first damn place. But if we're trading American abroad health care anecdotes, Epi might like a word with you. According to him, his ability to pay for a plane ticket out of Britain is the only he's not a crippled now.
We pretty much agree, then.
Well, off the top of my head, there's the Brits.
For RC Dean
http://www.privatehealth.co.uk/healthinsurance/
Oh, Coeus, you big silly.
(Sigh)
Are none of you libertarians ever going to let me construct a little understanding around here?
(Sigh)
(Sigh)
hehe. I've just seen the role and power of the US federal government pushed too far too fast in my brief time on this planet to not think that they'll continue to push it as far as theoretically possible.
PSA screening is a very complex issue that is a source of controversy and debate amongst physicians. It cannot be adequately summarized in a few-paragraph article nor in a few-sentence comment. The notion that a patient should be allowed to take a PSA result and decide on the mode of treatment is particularly simplistic and ludicrous in the case of this test and a positive result. Urologists who deal with this situation day in and day out for years are perplexed by that situation.
In a nutshell, PSA testing is rife with false positive results and even when they genuine reflect prostate cancer, testing creates a slippery slope for the physician - and yes, the patient - that puts them in very many cases on a fast track to terrible debilitating surgery that will not actually add years to their lives. Many physicians have stopped doing PSA testing because the jury is still way out on what the results mean and indicate (Dr. Catalona, incidentally, developed the PSA test and though he is highly qualified, his advocacy of PSA testing cannot exactly be considered objective.). Testing for prostate cancer is a work greatly in progress and the PSA is not the silver bullet that most non-medical people think it is. It pains me to say this about a government task force but in this particular case its recommendation, while it should be debated, is shared by many experts and is not unreasonable.
In the grand scheme, it's not relevant how difficult it is to decide on course of treatment and the evaluation of its effectiveness. It's important that even the most uneducated nitwit retain the right to decide for themselves what actions will be taken to evaluate and treat any conditions they believe they have.
Unfortunately, retaining that right has nothing to do with the "D" rating. If one body of experts believe that a course of treatment sux, and they have the metadata study to back them up, then why is Ron jumping all over them?
It's important that even the most uneducated nitwit retain the right to decide for themselves what actions will be taken to evaluate and treat any conditions they believe they have.
If they self-pay, yes.
Yes - it would also be interesting, for example, to watch said nitwit perform his own non-indicated radical prostatectomy after he had decided that that was the "action that will be taken".
Freedom has its consequences.
Let the hilarity begin.
Somewhere here, there's an opportunity for a joke about "Human Centipede, Part Deux", but I'm too fried to identify it right now.
Fucking work...
When it comes to dealing with workplace stress, I've always believed that it's better to be baked than fried.
Yeah, but most of us have to wait until we get home.
Learn to maintain.
Also
testing creates a slippery slope
huh huh....huh huh....huh huh....huh huh...
Last
You can have my prostate when you can pry it from my cold, dead...wait aminute...
In my early 40's i had my first professionally administered digital prostate exam. One year later the young doctor at the clinic looked at my chart and said, at my age, in good health, there was no reason for another exam just one year later. But if I wanted to be sure there were no problems he would be, and I quote, "happy to do it". And he turned beet red...I'm sure his bedside manner has improved.
http://www.articlecell.com/Art.....est/560939
Do you suppose they will let this doctor appeal the verdict against him?
I am a cancer doctor in training xwho treats lots of prostate cancer. This is an ongoing area of research. There are two trials with conflicting results. Their recommendations are not regarded as clinically binding by oncologists until their scientific societies come to weigh the evidence as against screening. We are not yet to that point but may be.
I think it is absolutely silly that articles propose to cut insurance for a small cheap test but males can no longer buy plans that's don't include female reproductive health. It's truly tragic the lack of choice for insurance options.
I think it is absolutely silly that articles propose to cut insurance for a small cheap test but males can no longer buy plans that's don't include female reproductive health.
Yes but since feminists are for equality, I'm sure we'll see them stumping for a federal law to increase car insurance rates for younger female drivers, just like they campaigned for male's health insurance. Yup, any day now.
How does a PSA test "harm" anyone?
It doesn't, directly. But if it gives a false positive (and apparently the false positive rate is incredibly high), then the followup procedures can cause harm.
This is a rare case where RTFC is more important than RTFA.
Are you effing kidding me? You're arguing that the government should waste taxpayer dollars on something that has been determined to have little or no benefit? REALLY?!?
You have failed in reading comprehension. I can't really blame you though. Ron's writing in this post is really weak. The whole point in the article is in this sentence fragment: "The problem with centralized control over health insurance and care..."
Great post thanks a lot for sharing this nice article with us thanks man.
As a number of other commentors have also pointed out, I think this is a really poorly written, and poorly argued article. The government panel looked at all of the studies, and results and said that this test does not provide a good basis for decisions regarding Prostate cancer. They do not say that you can't have the test. They do not address the question of who pays for the test. They are providing information to you regarding what you may expect based on using this test as a basis for additional procedures regarding potential prostate cancer incidence and treatment. They are giving you clear information regarding your options. Isn't that what you want?
Unfortunately, the article appears to jump to the conclusion that this information is an indication that with government run insurance or health care, the PSA test would no longer be available. I find no logical argument put forward to justify this leap of logic, and I like and read Reason since the majority of their articles and stances are based on solid logic and reasoning.
It is just as sound, based on what is presented, to attack the existing insurance industry, for surely they will use this report as an argument to not cover the cost of PSA testing. They are money making enterprises, and if an actuarial case can be made that the money spent on a PSA test offers no benefit 0.1% of the time, and has related adverse health effects 0.15% of the time, then the test should not be covered (Note that the percentages I offer are only examples, not statistically verified). That is the way the present system works. In addition, I would not be surprised if most present insurance providers would refuse to provide coverage for adverse health outcomes that occur as a result of procedures undertaken due to a test that they did not approve. Most insurance available has review, and procedure screening processes in place that require specialist treatment (prostate surgery and oncology would fit that description) to be verified and approved by the insurer (not the patient or the primary care physician) before they will cover any charges related to special treatment. There may be insurance that is available at some cost that does not have these restrictions, but other than Medicare and Medicaid I don't know where you find it.
There are sound reasons to oppose government run health insurance and health care, but this article does not offer any of them. It uses one panel's report on one test to argue that there may be one or more people who could benefit from an early PSA test to avoid a reduced life span to argue that government should stay out of health insurance and care. That is quite a leap especially without adding that "IF" government used this report as a "sole basis for denying" insurance or health coverage that would be "what is wrong" with government getting involved in that portion of our lives.
In closing - Reason, please continue to offer reasoned and logical articles and opinions, but please refrain from posting emotional, baiting articles such as this.
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