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Politics

GOP Debate: Ultimate Justice Edition

Peter Suderman | 9.7.2011 11:05 PM

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What do Republican voters love? Judging solely by applause levels in tonight's debate—an admittedly imperfect metric—the death penalty ranks fairly high on the list. Texas Gov. Rick Perry defended his own record and his state's tops-in-the-nation execution count, stating slowly but clearly that those who commit "heinous crimes against citizens" in the Lone Star State will face "ultimate justice." Three cheers for state-sponsored killing!

Support is support, though, however you get it, and Perry was in a fight for his own political life. It wasn't quite two-men-enter-one-man-leaves, but it sometimes felt like it. As the GOP field's newest entrant and arguable front-runner, Perry duked it out, going gov-o-a-gov-o with former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, his closest competition in the polls.

One key difference? Social Security. Perry doubled down on his assertion that the program was a "Ponzi scheme," even if Karl Rove says otherwise. Pressed by the moderators, Perry declined to get technical, or philosophical: "I think any of us that want to go back and change 70 years of whats been going on in this country is going to have a tough time," he said. "Talking about what folks were doing in the 30's and 40's is a nice intellectual conversation." But intellectual conversation apparently wasn't on Perry's to-do list.

Romney, who, with his substantially more polished answers and handy data points, frequently appeared to be running for president of people who speak in complete sentences, had a somewhat different opinion about the program: Sure, Social Security has long-term funding difficulties—but none that can't be solved with a little technocratic gimmickry. "It's a program that's working for millions of Americans," he said, shortly after agreeing that its finances were broken. But the people, they like it: The GOP nominee, Romney insisted, "has to be someone who isn't committed to abolishing Social Security, but who is committed to saving it." Mitt Romney wants you to know that he is prepared to be that nominee!

The other candidates on stage came prepared to say things as well, if that's what getting enough votes to win the GOP nomination requires. Former Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum's opening bid included the following statements: "I have a plan!" and "I've done things!" Both true, I'm sure. Jon Huntsman seemed friendly, and orange. Ex-Godfather's exec Herman Cain touted his own plan, a 9-9-9 pizza deal to save the economy. Bachmann, who earned executive experience as foster mother to 23, fretted that she was "very concerned about parental rights," and, in the midst of a long rant about ObamaCare, also found time to say, rather emphatically, that "Kids. Need. Jobs." Newt Gingrinch namechecked Art Laffer, Ronald Reagan, and himself, then proposed making English America's official language. He also said he'd fire Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke today if given the opportunity. Huge applause! Almost as big as Perry's death penalty line. (Let's hope no one suggests executing Bernanke.)  

Sometimes the moderators amused themselves by asking Rep. Ron Paul what this whole libertarianism thing is all about. They asked about drug regulation, and airline safety, and a slew of other lazy libertarian gotchas. Paul did his best to explain in 90 seconds why federal regulation of the drug industry isn't always so hot, and, by the way, neither is the long-lost drug war. Somewhere in the middle of the night, he stopped to offer a half complaint about President Ronald Reagan—the debate's namesake and ghost-host (it was held at the Reagan Library). "The message of Reagan was great!" said Paul. "But the consequences," including huge deficits…well, not so much. The moderators, however, tended to ignore his responses, preferring instead to run Paul through endless variations on the same question: Really? You believe that? Are you actually serious?

Seriousness, however, did not appear to be high on the list of priorities for the evening. The debate, co-sponsored by Politico and MSNBC, wasn't quite as exquisitely vapid as the CNN showdown hosted by John King in June, but neither was it as revealingly rough-and-tumble as the Fox News/Examiner face-off in August. Mostly it felt like a misfire. While declining to aggressively attack Gov. Perry for supporting mandatory cervical cancer vaccinations, Romney shrugged that "we've each taken a mulligan or two." If there were any true justice in the world, tonight's debate would end up as another one.

Read previous GOP debate wraps here and here.

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NEXT: Social Security is Not a Ponzi Scheme, Mr. Perry

Peter Suderman is features editor at Reason.

PoliticsPolicyNanny StateElection 2012Obamacare
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  1. Joe M   14 years ago

    Accurate summary. I was thrilled to hear Perry go after Social Security again, but he really needs to steal something from Romney's playbook and maybe have a few numbers handy to back up his claims.

    1. Richard Nous   14 years ago

      Perry could easily explain away his "Ponzi scheme" comment by informing the American people that FDR set the median death age as the retirement age for a reason. The median death age has increased 20% or so since FDR therefore people are collecting SS benefits longer than the system anticipated, so, like a Ponzi scheme SS is running out of other people's money to sustain itself.

      1. Apatheist   14 years ago

        Yes but the money would still run out eventually anyways.

  2. Colin   14 years ago

    I thought Paul was much better than the previous debate, but he still rambles too much.

  3. Ron Paul or death   14 years ago

    " 1. Ron Paul took a lie detector test. The lie detector tapped out.
    2. Ron Paul is an element on the periodic table.
    3. Ron Paul could lead a horse to water AND convince it to drink, but he doesn't believe the government has the right to so he refuses.
    4. King Midas shook hands with Ron Paul once. Nothing happened.
    5. Studies by the World Health Organization show that Ron Paul is the leading cause of freedom among men.
    6. Ron Paul wasn't born. He liberated himself from the womb.
    7. The chief export of Ron Paul is liberty.
    8. When fascism goes to sleep at night, it checks under the bed for Ron Paul.
    9. Ron Paul eats Total Gyms for breakfast.
    10. If Ron Paul had lived in Sparta, the movie would have been called "1".
    11.When Chuck Norris gets scared, he goes to Ron Paul.
    12.Ron Paul lost his virginity to Susan B. Anthony.
    13.Ron Paul doesn't cut taxes, He kills them with his bare hands.
    14.Ron Paul delivers babies without his hands. He simply reads them the Bill of Rights and they crawl out in anticipation of freedom.
    15.If you pull Ron Paul's finger, a band will march by playing Yankee Doodle Dandy. "

    --SAYO

    1. Max   14 years ago

      16. Ron Paul is a racist fuckstick.

      1. Ancapistan   14 years ago

        Do you have a google alert about Ron Paul and Reason? Every time he is mentioned you ramble on about the same old stuff.

      2. Maxxx   14 years ago

        Stop using my handle, shithead.

  4. mattrue   14 years ago

    What's wrong with state sponsored killing? I'm glad we have a military. I don't like surrendering.

    1. heller   14 years ago

      Herp?

  5. Apatheist   14 years ago

    They completely dismissed Paul but he did a fine job of setting up Perry for criticism which was awesome.

    Perry is the sleaziest politician that I know of and should be nowhere near the Whitehouse. The only benefit would be finally getting him the fuck out of Texas.

    1. MWG   14 years ago

      Perry should have seen it coming. Apparently he doesn't read Reason's H&R.

    2. ton-ton   14 years ago

      "Perry is the sleaziest politician that I know of and should be nowhere near the Whitehouse. The only benefit would be finally getting him the fuck out of Texas."

      Other benefits if Perry becomes POTUS:

      Obama wouldn't be POTUS.
      Hillary wouldn't be POTUS.
      Romney wouldn't be POTUS.
      Huntsman wouldn't be POTUS.
      Santorum wouldn't be POTUS.
      Newt wouldn't be POTUS.

      1. Amakudari   14 years ago

        Oh, what glorious days lay ahead for the Republic.

        1. Maxxx   14 years ago

          It's probably the best that we're going to get soon.

  6. SIV   14 years ago

    (Let's hope no one suggests executing Bernanke.)

    Why the Fuck not?

    After a fair trial with a jury of .75% APY life savings CD-holding Kangaroos of course

    1. Charlie   14 years ago

      I call kangaroo court!

    2. David Crawford   14 years ago

      "Let's hope no one suggests executing Bernanke."

      Jeez, you say that like it's a bad thing or something.

    3. Amakudari   14 years ago

      He's sternly warning Ron Paul that he should only eat one from that pack of M&Ms he's unwrapping. It's late and you know how even a bit of caffeine keeps you awake.

      1. Amakudari   14 years ago

        Thanks, squirrels. This was in reply to Apatheist below.

    4. Barry D   14 years ago

      Yeah, I was really wondering what's wrong with executing Bernanke, myself.

      1. Lost_In_Translation   14 years ago

        Keyneseins will have a martyr then?

        1. Barry D   14 years ago

          Picturing a dystopian sci-fi movie about a future where the Keynesians live in a remote corner of the desert, worshipping Ben Bernanke as their Messiah, and feasting on the flesh of innocent passers by.

  7. Apatheist   14 years ago

    Check this out:

    http://news.yahoo.com/photos/t.....35976.html

    1. Joe M   14 years ago

      Wow, looks like he's giving him a stern warning about something.

      1. The caption   14 years ago

        Perry: Watch it Ron, the Bilderbergers have selected me to be the next POTUS. 🙂

        1. Alex Jones   14 years ago

          The NWO has selected Rick Perry to govern the North American Union and institute the amero to replace the dollar in order to fund illegal immigrant workers building the Tran-Texas-Corridor straight through to Canada so FEMA can load us into coffins and dump us in Canada to feed the polar bear population.

    2. Tulpa   14 years ago

      "If you get in the way of my curing cancer I will break your fucking arm!"

    3. Ancapistan   14 years ago

      That same picture is on Drudge. The subtle implications of that picture showing all the sheep that Perry is lecturing Ron Paul.

      1. Tulpa   14 years ago

        While the slurpers will definitely eat it up, to me Perry looks like a thug in that photo, grabbing an old man's arm.

        And it's clear from their expressions that it's not a friendly chat and a gentle touch.

        1. Lost_In_Translation   14 years ago

          Seriously, shouldn't Perry have been penalized for that foul? 10 yards, repeat the question.

    4. Tulpa   14 years ago

      I'd be interested to know which break this occurred during. Dollars to donuts it's after the Reagan exchange and Perry is giving him whatfor for dishonoring St Ronald in his very own library in front of his wife.

      1. Ancapistan   14 years ago

        I am not sure since I didn't watch the debate...too busy playing Dead Island. But it does appear to be a stern lecturing of some sort on Perry's part and Ron does not looked pleased one bit. I hope Ron got some good jabs in at him before the break was over...and told him to never touch his arm again. Perry is such a douche.

    5. Brandon Magoon   14 years ago

      Perry looks like a complete ass.

      1. WTF   14 years ago

        It ain't just looks.

  8. concerned viewer   14 years ago

    there's a fucking plane in the room!

    1. danwgre   14 years ago

      lol

    2. CatoTheElder`   14 years ago

      A majestic monument to government waste.

      It's not just "a fucking plane": it's a fucking Boeing 707 SAM 27000 tricked out for the exclusive use of one bad-ass gangster.

      1. CatoTheElder`   14 years ago

        one bad-ass gangster and his posse, that is.

  9. Reagan Librarian   14 years ago

    "...Here you'll find the arm-chair that President Reagan sprayed turds on after viewing Back to the Future...It has now become sign of approval for a president to spray turds on his seat while screening films...."

    1. George H. W. Bush Librarian   14 years ago

      Bush letter to Gorbachev (dated: September 24, 1991):

      "Dude this fucking album is epic. Fuck that Guns N' Roses shit. This album fucking knocks Appetite for Destruction in the balls. Fucking hell, "Smells Like Teen Spirit" will be the anthem for Generation X...God fucking knows that they have a depressing future ahead of them."

  10. PantsFan   14 years ago

    OT: When did Sarah Jessica Parker get cast as the new skeletor?

    1. Apatheist   14 years ago

      Always?

    2. Matrix   14 years ago

      I thought she was being cast as the new Mr. Ed.

  11. A Serious Man   14 years ago

    I'm just glad Ron Paul got the last question and totally nailed it. He did a good job calling out Brian Williams strawman about welfare and the Federal government.

  12. Some dude   14 years ago

    That was a pretty clever trap the Paul campaign laid for Perry. Taking out an ad about how Paul supported Reagan, I mean. Did you see Ron Paul's eyes lit up when Perry actually fell for the trap and brought up Paul's resignation letter? He practically jumped up and down.

    Perry actually called Paul out for being more conservative than Reagan.

    1. Brandon Magoon   14 years ago

      I can't believe the Perry campaign is this stupid. If they don't wise up they are going to get hammered. As much as I hate to say this FOX has smarter people then MSNBC.

  13. xx   14 years ago

    I don't think "state-sponsored killing" is the best term to describe when the state directly kills people.

    And having a major candidate taking on SS is AWESOME. Quit being such a bitch.

  14. ChrisO   14 years ago

    I may be biased by not wanting the guy anywhere near the presidency, but I thought Perry came off poorly. The questions asked of him were mostly very reasonable, and he seemed to struggle to come up with answers even to softballs (death penalty *is* a softball in a Republican-filled room).

    He reminded me more of Dubya than I expected, since the hype has been that he is much more polished.

    Ron Paul just frustrates the hell out of me. He can't explain anything in a debate format and comes off as loopy.

    1. Ron Paul   14 years ago

      Listen muthfucka, I'm tryin'!

    2. Tulpa   14 years ago

      While I'm extremely critical of him and his campaign on questions of debate performance and preparation, you have to admit that part of the problem is that he actually tries to answer the questions, and often gets questions that are quite complicated to give a good answer to (especially in 90 seconds). I mean, explaining why federal involvement in emergency response, school lunches, pharmaceutical drugs, air traffic control and passenger screening, etc is difficult to do without coming off as heartless, and forget about it if you only have 90 seconds.

      He seems constitutionally (npi) incapable of just giving a partial, soundbite answer and then moving on to something else he wants to talk about.

      1. Anonymous   14 years ago

        "He seems constitutionally (npi) incapable of just giving a partial, soundbite answer and then moving on to something else he wants to talk about."

        Perhaps not entirely oddly, that's exactly why I like his answers.

      2. Glenn Ammons   14 years ago

        Tulpa says, "He seems constitutionally (npi) incapable of just giving a partial, soundbite answer and then moving on to something else he wants to talk about."

        Yep. It's too bad. The other candidates take a BS question as an opportunity to say a well-rehearsed something about something they care about. If Paul did the same, the audience would learn more about him and what he thinks.

      3. Tony   14 years ago

        You presume there is an answer that explains, for example, how removing any social safety net will actually reduce the number of starving children?

        "It's wrong to say we're not compassionate!!! Wahh!" is not an explanation for this fantastical claim.

        1. ranting ranter   14 years ago

          There is an explanation. And Ron Paul gave it in the debate: Economics.

        2. Chemical Brothers   14 years ago

          The time has come to Push the Button.

      4. ranting ranter   14 years ago

        At least he didn't do the sound money bit. Maybe he is actually trying to win the thing. He even went relatively easy on foreign policy.

  15. Doug   14 years ago

    Banning capital punishment is one libertarian ideology I don't buy into. Capital punishment is a useful tool in bringing the worst motherfuckers in society to justice. That some innocents are executed is horrific, I agree, and that must stop.

    But the problem isn't in the punishment, it's in the failure of the justice system. Innocents find themselves on death row because a cluster of stupid fucks in a courtroom put them there. Eliminating capital punishment because some members of the justice system can't wield it responsibly is no less absurd than eliminating firearms because some citizens can't wield them responsibly.

    That is all.

    1. e   14 years ago

      Doug makes a good point, we can't just stop killing innocent people just because jurors are stupid fucks.

      1. heller   14 years ago

        ^this

      2. yeah   14 years ago

        Its way better to stick innocent people in a cage for the rest of their lives. We might even exonerate a few along the way.

    2. MWG   14 years ago

      There's nothing wrong with capital punishment in theory, but the idea that the government can follow through with it without killing those who are innocent is laughable. Merely stating that 'it must stop' means absolutely nothing. The fact of the matter is that innocent people have been executed and will continue to be executed.

      What # of innocent people being executed per year do you find acceptable? If you answer is zero, you should be against the death penally in practice.

      1. ton-ton   14 years ago

        Your logic does not hold. Eliminating the death penalty would result in some murderers escaping from prison or getting out on parole or finishing their sentence and then killing more innocent people. There is a balance between killing a few convicted innocents and giving murderers a chance to kill again, perhaps multiple times again.

        1. capitol l   14 years ago

          ...more gruesome 'morality' from the utilitarian camp...

          1. hold on there   14 years ago

            I'm not sure that's utilitarianism because those who advocate the death penalty intentionally try to avoid killing innocents. If you know someone is innocent, but sacrifice them anyway for the "greater good" (i.e. to maintain the prestige of the state or some bullshit), that is utilitarianism. At least the evil kind.

            But if you insist on holding someone accountable for things they don't even intend, well then there's also the other side to that which the above poster notes.

        2. Duke of Anarchy   14 years ago

          If the replacement for the death penalty is life imprisonment with no parole, then those who finish their sentences will be harmless (until the zombie apocalypse).

          1. Maxxx   14 years ago

            The is impossible to enforce and it ignores the fact that killers kill in prison too.

            The slimebag that had liberal-trarian panties in a twist last year had originally been sentenced to life without parole, where he murdered a cell mate, quickly got paroled out of prison and went on to murder more people.

        3. sailshonan   14 years ago

          So when innocents who have been wrongly accused and convicted are murdered by the state, that's okey-dokey in order to prevent innocents being killed by escaped or paroled murderers. And the trade-off of innocents for innocents costs a lot of money in legal fees and incarceration costs. Yeah, okay, seems logical to me.

          1. almost   14 years ago

            You forgot the justice for the victims and their families part.

            1. allllmost   14 years ago

              you mean satiating the bloodlust of the victims and families

            2. MWG   14 years ago

              As I said originally, I have no problem with the death penalty in theory, but how is life in prison also not justice?

        4. MWG   14 years ago

          So if you don't execute someone, you'll have to let them out of prison? Sounds like you're the one with faulty logic.

    3. Apatheist   14 years ago

      Death is an acceptable consequence for certain crimes to me. The problem is that those stupid fucks in the juries, behind the bench and at the prosecutor's table aren't going away. One innocent life is enough for me to be against capital punishment. That being said you aren't going to see me out protesting some rapist murderer's death sentence.

      1. Copernicus   14 years ago

        You've contradicted yourself. More than one innocent already has been executed. According to you, one is enough to be against CP. Therefore , you must protest all death sentences. You don't get to pick and choose. That's your point isn't it? How do you know that convicted rapist/murderer isn't the victim of the stupid fucks you mentioned?

        1. Apatheist   14 years ago

          I can't be against it without going out of my way to protest it?

    4. Barry D   14 years ago

      "Capital punishment is a useful tool in bringing the worst motherfuckers in society to justice."

      Which is why it's hard to understand: why NOT Bernanke?

    5. Eduard van Haalen   14 years ago

      If the govt discovers that it convicted an innocent person, then the mistake can be at least somewhat corrected if the person is in prison - release him and compensate him. But if he's been executed, then compensating him is more difficult.

    6. leviramsey   14 years ago

      I think the best solution is probably along the lines of having every prosecuting attorney who speaks in the courtroom, every person called by the prosecution to testify, every juror, and the judge all sign statements declaring that they have no doubt (reasonable or unreasonable) that the accused is guilty and that if any basis for reasonable doubt is subsequently found, they declare themselves to be no longer human as far as the law is concerned (thereby losing any and all rights to life and property that they have and voiding all others' contractual obligations to them). The signature to such a statement is required from all of the above to hand down a death sentence.

    7. Lost_In_Translation   14 years ago

      So not even the fact that keeping prisoners in prison for life being cheaper is a good reason?

  16. Max   14 years ago

    The highlight of the evening was Ron Paul's creepy notion that maybe the fence on the U.S.-Mexican border will be there to keep us in.

    1. ton-ton   14 years ago

      Ron Paul's creepy stupid notion

  17. Samuel L. Jackson   14 years ago

    There are motherfucking snakes in front of that motherfucking plane!

  18. kwais   14 years ago

    After watching the Ann Coulter BBC video linked that bitchfest thread below.
    I wish Ron Paul had Ann Coulter's abilities as far as responding to "do you really believe that" questions.

    I wish he had her speaking wit.
    Or if he had Hitchen's speaking wit that would be cool too.

  19. clearsmith   14 years ago

    The highlight of the evening was Ron Paul's creepy notion that maybe the fence on the U.S.-Mexican border will be there to keep us in.
    2011 New Arrival Nike Free Run + Mens Running Shoes - Black/Red/White

  20. clearsmith   14 years ago

    After watching the Ann Coulter BBC video linked that bitchfest thread below.
    I wish Ron Paul had Ann Coulter's abilities as far as responding to "do you really believe that" questions
    2011 New Arrival Nike Free Run + Mens Running Shoes - Black/Red/White

  21. clearsmith   14 years ago

    Banning capital punishment is one libertarian ideology I don't buy into. Capital punishment is a useful tool in bringing the worst motherfuckers in society to justice. That some innocents are executed is horrific, I agree, and that must stop.
    Nike Free Run + Mens Running Shoes - Yellow/Grey/White

  22. clearsmith   14 years ago

    Nike Free Run + Womens Running Shoes - Black/White, Black Nike Logo
    Nike Free Run 2 Kids Running Shoes - Blue/Gray/White

  23. clearsmith   14 years ago

    Nike Free 3.0 v3 Mens Running Shoes - Grey/White/Black
    2011 New Arrival Nike Free Run +2 mens Running Shoes - Sky-blue/Orange/White

    1. X   14 years ago

      Nice sneakers. You guys sell Timbalans?

    2. Xenus   14 years ago

      Nice sneakers. You guys sell Timbalans?

  24. Xenebuys   14 years ago

    Nice sneaks. You guys sell Timbalans?

  25. Xenocles   14 years ago

    Thoughts:

    1. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought "pizza deal" about Cain's plan.

    2. The format was not kind to Ron Paul.

    3. I understand what Paul was getting at about the fence, but it was simply not the venue to go full paranoiac.

  26. Brandon Magoon   14 years ago

    The real Rick Perry: http://www.ronpaulwasright.net.....Perry.html

  27. Citizen Nothing   14 years ago

    Looks like I'll be voting LP yet again. How about it, Gary Johnson?

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