Maryland Police Tase Panicked Car Crash Victim, Victim Dies

There have got to be better ways to get a car crash victim who may have been high on PCP out of his car: 

A man died while in the custody of Montgomery County police Tuesday after he was subdued with a Taser, according to the department.

The 40-year-old man became combative as rescue teams were attempting to remove him from a car wreck on Route 29 near Briggs Chaney Road around 10:20 p.m., police said.

The car had run into a barrier separating the roadway's north- and southbound lanes.

The rescue team requested police assistance, acccording to police. The officers attempted to remove the man from the car, but he continued to resist and they used a Taser on him, police said.

The man was transported to the hospital, where he died around 11:40 p.m., according to police. His name was not immediately released by police.

A vial of suspected liquid PCP was found in the car, police said.

Last month, Tim Cavanaugh reported on San Bernardino County Sheriff's Deputies who punished an "uncooperative" motorist by Tasing him to death.

Comments

[Ska]

The "better ways" link goes back to the police shooting story.

[Joe M]

Well, yeah. It's easier to pull a dead body out of a car than a live one struggling against you.

[Riggs]

Fixed.

[cynical]

Too bad.

[Tulpa]

This isn't even comparable to the San Bernardino incident, as this guy was actually resisting rather than being insufficiently deferent.

[Joe M]

Good point, but he wasn't resisting arrest, just assistance.

[Tulpa]

You don't have a right to remain in your vehicle when it's sitting perpendicular to traffic.

[Citizen Nothing]

It's like the MNG of the right.

[Tulpa]

Oh, so we're on "it" terms now.

I see.

[Citizen Nothing]

The phenomenon, not the person.

[Mnemone Jones]

It amazes me that this comment was the one that drew snark. It's like it's so sensible it just has to be attacked.

"Freedom means the Man can't tell me I can't drive across the highway at 5 mph. Don't oppress me and my driving lifestyle choices!"

[SugarFree]

Or Tulpa has a long history of siding with the police when they kill people for the heinous crime of "contempt of cop."

But I've only been here for years, what could I possibly know?

[SIV]

Where was Tulpa on the MIT Play-Doh bomber thread? The only commenter agreeing with me was Dan-T so I had to comment incognito to avoid guilt by association.

[robc]

When Dan T is the only one agreeing with you, you should reconsider your position.

[SIV]

Looks like John agreed.

[SugarFree]

I pulled it out of the archives. He didn't comment on it.

http://reason.com/blog/2007/10.....tcontainer

[Bill]

So some guy endangers a bunch of other drivers while he's driving high on PCP, wrecks his car, then fights with the fireman and cops as they try to rescue him? The cops eventually use their tasers to subdue the guy, and he dies sometime later in the hospital due to causes that may or may not be related to either his drug use or the cops taser use?

Am I reading that right?

If so, this article should win an award for biggest bullshit headline of the year. How embarrassing.

[cynical]

Tasers can and do kill. They should only be used when violence is necessary, but expectedly lethal violence is excessive. Maybe this qualified, but it was probably just less hassle for the taserers.

[russell_barnes]

It amazes me that this comment was the one that drew snark. It's like it's so sensible it just has to be attacked.

"Freedom means the Man can't tell me I can't drive across the highway at 5 mph. Don't oppress me and my driving lifestyle choices!"
@ I paid $32.67 for a XBOX 360 and my mom got a 17 inch Toshiba laptop for $94.83 being delivered to
our house tomorrow by FedEX. I will never again pay expensive retail prices at stores. I even sold a
46 inch HDTV to my boss for $650 and it only cost me $52.78 to get. Here is the website we using to get
all this stuff, BetaSell.com

[dunphy]

if he's in a collision, he has a duty to comply including -
1) providing name, license, etc.
2) getting the #A$($# out of the roadway if ordered to (so the officers can tow the car and clear the roadway etc.)

if the guy is refusing to get out of the car, after demands, etc. and they had to tase him to gain compliance... tough.

PCP is a frigging gnarly drug. he uses it, he accepts the medical consequences.

for those not familiar, the wikipedia page is pretty good

[Bar Student]

So death by tasing is a medical consequence of PCP? Who knew?

[dunphy]

no, and we don't even KNOW he was on PCP

there was no "death by tasing". he died. why he died is unknown, but if it;s like most deaths ASSOCIATED with tasers (and/or physical struggles) it will be likely due to a combination of factors, frequently to include high levels of (various and sundry) drugs in his system.

which happen regardless of whether a taser was used

[Sy]

"if the guy is refusing to get out of the car, after demands, etc. and they had to tase him to gain compliance... tough."

If the police and firemen are too fucking stupid to figure out the guy is panicking and too much of pussies to just pull his ass out of the car, they should consider another line of work.

[Tulpa]

And I'm pretty sure any other method of removing someone from a car against their will is more likely to result in injury to the removed person than being tased, on average at least.

[jester]

True. When they darted the escaped and pregnant Bubbles the hippo at Lion Country Safari in the late 70s, she died crushed by the weight of her own body.

Bubbles wasn't a human or in a car, but clearly those who darted her were trying to help her. We don't know yet whether the PCP-influenced driver died of injury sustained by the crash or by the taser.

I'll wait for the autopsy which hopefully won't be outsourced to a Mississippi coroner.

[Pip]

We don't know if it was PCP. Learn to fucking read.

[Fist of Etiquette]

A vial of suspected liquid PCP was found in the car, police said.

Maybe it was the liquidity that was suspect. I mean, what's the market for PCP anymore? It's got to be next to worthless.

[dunphy]

i once bought a vial of PCP when undercover. and a vial of LSD too.

PCP is rarely in liquid form in a vial when it's an end-user, usually only dealers are holding that much PCP

if in fact,it was PCP

[Fist of Etiquette]

Would the liquidity joke have worked better if I had somehow referred to the PCP as an asset?

[dunphy]

whooooosh

kind of ironic that i missed that, considering i am an active futures trader.

totally lame on my part

[Kristen]

In DC, PCP is still a thing. I wouldn't say it was the thing, but it's still around in good quantities.*

*I know because I live here - would never touch the stuff myself.

[rather]

There is this thing called an autopsy and it can determine cause of death. I have an idea: why not wait to see what killed him?

[Knee Jerk]

The PCP, probably. Not that we are not influenced by the cheesy propaganda value of the headline.

[Jerry]

Well the rescue team could have seen if he had a rapid heart beat, which would have precluded the use of a taser?

[Tulpa]

It's kind of hard to measure the heart rate of someone who's punching and kicking you.

[Jerry]

They couldn't see the heart beating through his shirt? He was probably only wearing a tanktop.

[dunphy]

how exactly could they SEE this? if he was noncompliant and they were the ones who called the cops to assist?

did they use their magical x-ray vision to see his heart beating in his chest

oh also, fwiw, elevated heart rate does not preclude the use of taser.

taser (i carry one) are almost always used when somebody has an elevated heart rate. heart rates become elevated when, among other things, people fight, run, struggle, etc. heart rates are also elevated under stress, and stress hormones such as adrenaline

[Ventifact]

Not that we are not influenced by the cheesy propaganda value of the headline.

Indeed, [and I mean this earnestly] I was all ready to be outraged, until I read the story and discovered just how spurious the headline is.

[Knee Jerk]

Kind of makes you wonder about the motives, professionalism and integrity of the Reason staff, doesn't it.

[MysteryFish]

Is that a...drink?

[Abdul]

There have got to be better ways to get a car crash victim who may have been high on PCP out of his car:

Lure him out with a trail of dimebags that goes under a big basket propped up by a stick?

[rather]

Cheetos

[goober1223]

Are you serious right now?

[Citizen Nothing]

This story needed more squirrels.

[Abdul]

One with it's own master suite and attached bath with jacuzzi tub and marble floors.

Kept bitching about the thread count of the sheets on waterbed, though.

[wylie]

"296?! Are you shittin me man?! I almost slept on that shit! 296 is sandpaper as far as I'm concerned!"

[Anonymous Coward]

A vial of suspected liquid PCP was found in the car, police said.

"So what are planting on the guy? Cocaine? LSD?"

"Use the PCP. I need to get rid of some of it."

[dunphy]

and i am sure they will "magick" the drugs into his system too. maybe the medical examiner will help them out on this great conspiracy

[Fluffy]

I bet there are plenty of M.E.'s who would be happy to do just that.

[Mensan]

What's Steven Hayne up to these days?

[Michael Berkland]

Shut up! We try to help you guys out in any way we can! If that means "fudging" the reports, we fudge the reports!

For great justice.

[Ralph Erdmann]

Yeah dunphy! Keep eating those doughnuts! Let us do the work cops won't do!

[Fred Zain]

Sometimes, we save the state money and don't even bother with doing lab work!

Clearly the fucker deserved what he got!

[Fred Zain]

Sometimes, we don't even need to do tests!

If a LEO catches them, clearly their guilty.

[Ralph Erdmann]

We're just being team players, dunphy! It's all about professionalism! Now run around the corner and get us some doughnuts!

[Warty]

When all you have is an electro-torture hammer, all your problems look like electro-torture nails.

[Ventifact]

True. But, to be fair, that is actually one of the main arguments used to provide cops with tasers. ...So they have something besides guns.

[SIV]

I think it was better when they used clubs. Cops seem to use the taser where they wouldn't use a club, and when necessary, the taser seems less effective.

[dunphy]

i can speak from experience (never fired my taser myself in 5 + yrs of carrying it, but seen it used many times, as well as batons) that the taser is more effective on average, and is much less dangerous, on average.

batons, even on tertiary targets , are much more likely to result in injury, often substantial.

i've been tased twice. no biggie. i would not volunteer to be struck with a baton

[jasno]

Hmm... depends.. is a 1/1000(*) chance of dying from a heart attack better than a 1/10(*) chance of having a broken bone?

(*) - Completely pulled from a squirrel's ass

[dunphy]

i understand this is the common assumption but here's the thing. people die from heart failure when cops have to wrestle them into handcuffs TOO. it happens LESS often know because we have tasers, so we tase resistant wrestling suspects.

like i said, i have personally had a guy's heart stop when wrestling him (briefly ) into handcuffs.

there is this erroneous assumption that some magickal aspect of the taser causes hearts to stop

not true.

however, being tased is stressful. for 5 seconds. but no more stressful than being in a protracted wrestling match with cops trying to restrain you.

the latter isfar more likely to result in injury (especially trying to pull you from a car ) and also can result in heart failure.

especially when added factors of : pre-existing conditions, multiple days awake (not unusual with many drugs), inadequate nutrition (specifically electrolytes), excited delirium, dehydration, etc. etc. apply

fwiw, literally tens of thousands of cops, reporters, etc. have volunteered to be tased

NONE have died

cops, and others, otoh, HAVE died from physical exertion like training exercises etc.

iow, wrestling (or any physical exertion) is dangerous TOO.

ask len bias

[Coeus]

Yep. No one's ever died from a taser. It's always just a coincidence. They were going to die anyway, it was just the poor officer's luck that they tased them when it happened. You ever look up the word electrocution in the dictionary?

(not referring to this case, since he died later, just the scores of cases where the person's heart stops immediatly after the application of electricity)

[Anonymous Coward]

Were this a case of two ordinary citizens, the prosecuting attorney would rightly request that the jury find the tasing party guilty of negligent homicide or manslaughter by way of the eggshell skull rule.

[dunphy]

tasers do not "electrocute" people. tasers act on the skeletal muscles between the two probes and cause neuromuscular incapacitation in those area.

i have looked up the word electrocution

now please point me to an autopsy report that concludes a suspect was "electrocuted" by a taser...

i'll stand by on that (likely forever).

people will DIE in struggles... whether tased or not

the nature of police work is that frequently the types of people we deal with and who resist are drug/polydrug users and.or longtime abusers, decidedly not healthy, electrolye depleted, malnourished, dehydrated, etc. etc.

that's why that out of the scores of thousands of cops, journalists, etc. who have been tased - NONE have died

not one.

in wrestling matches, people have died after being tased, JUST LIKE they have died after wrestlign with cops. i mentioned the one who stopped breathing on me and thankfully did NOT die but did turn a bright shade of blue before his breathing was restored.

i also note i just recently responded to a heroin overdose (and thank God we revived her). druggies die and/or stop breathing frequently. these aren't healthy physical specimens we deal with , quite frequently

[Anonymous Coward]

these aren't healthy physical specimens we deal with

You take your victim(s) as you find them, dunphy. "I didn't know they were fragile" is not a valid defense. Stick with sovereign immunity.

[dunphy]

it's not a defense. it explains why some people drop dead during physical exertion. it happens far more frequently with drug addled, malnourished people than with normal people. that's life... or death

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, dunphy, except we're not talking about an abstract idea of physical exertion. We're talking about the use of force against a man, followed by the application of high-frequency low-voltage electricity to his body, then more physical force.

[dunphy]

which is what happens and should happen when you are physically resistant to lawful orders. they had to get him out of the car. he refused and medics called cops for assistance and repeatedly refused to comply

it's sad that he died, but people died from physical exertion with or without tasers.

is there a concern cops (or medics) did something wrong here? if so, what?

it's tragic, of course. but that's tangential to whether they did or didn't do something wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

He didn't die from "physical exertion," full stop. He wasn't shooting a few baskets, he wasn't doing a lap around the track. He died after being forcefully and violently removed from a vehicle by three people, tazed, and then being forcefully subdued.

"Is there a concern cops did something wrong?" Yes. I know the boys in blue have a little trouble remembering this term, so I'm happy to repeat it: Excessive Force.

How do three people, presumably in above average physical condition, find themselves unable to physically subdue a man who might not have been, in your words, a "healthy physical specimen", without the use of a Taser? Even assuming the man was on PCP at the time, was it wise or necessary with respect to his rights to use a device that permeates the body with an electrical charge when the person already has an elevated heart rate?

[dunphy]

he was removed from the car after repeated acts of resistance on his part to comply

iow, his fault

as for your second point, it's irrelevant. if they were justified in using the taser to remove him from the vehicle (and here's a hint - removing a resistant subject from a vehicle is not easy.), then they were justified.

and anytime anybody struggles with police, they are going to have an elevated heart rate. so what? tasers aren't precluded when people have elevated heart rates.

if you would read (and understand) a model use of force continuum, then you could actually understand that (assuming the article is accurate) it sounds like an entirely reasonable taser application.

they very well might have subdued him without a taser. that's great, but so what? he might have died in that case, too. there is no way to know

a taser is not justified if, and only if, it's the ONLY way to accomplish the objective. that's not the standard by which force is judged.

the issue is - what was the goal to be accomplished, what level of resistance was he putting up, etc.? if it justified taser under that agency's use of force guidelines/continuum, then it was justified.

these are legal determinations, not pie in the sky fanciful speculation about what would have been if only those meanie cops hadn't tasered the poor widdle "panicked" (spare me) motorist.

[Coeus]

i have looked up the word electrocution

Good. Then you now know that when your heart stops after the application of electricity, it's called electrocution. And knowing is half the battle.

now please point me to an autopsy report that concludes a suspect was "electrocuted" by a taser...

Bullshit challenge. When they are written up that way (and there have been many), taser sues to get it changed to "excited delirium". For some reason, this cause of death is almost exclusively given for people who die in, or in the process of being put into, police custody (curious, isn't it?)

Besides, if you shoot someone 20 times and he dies by bleeding out, he was still shot to death. The autopsy doesn't read "shot to death" now does it? Does that mean he wasn't? A taser works by applying electricity to a human body. A taser is a deadly weapon (this has been ruled on many times). If something is a deadly weapon, then that means it can kill you (I know this is basic, but you seem to have a hard time following, so I'm covering my bases). So if it uses electricity passing through your body to function and it kills you, you have been...(wait for it)...

ELECTROCUTED

hth

[dunphy]

it's not electrocution/. i have read autopsy reports for death via electrocution (power lines). the autopsy report states it as such

tasers do not electrocute people. you can ignore science, physics, and word definitions all you want, but it doesn't change their meaning

[Coeus]

tasers do not electrocute people. you can ignore science, physics, and word definitions all you want, but it doesn't change their meaning

You're projecting.

[dunphy]

oh, also a taser is NOT a deadly weapon. and we can play legal rulings all you want, but that is not at all the judicial determination in our great nation

the idea that tasers are deadly force is also patently absurd since (again) scores of thousands of cops routinely volunteer to be tased, not to mention many journalists etc. who have done the same thing with NO ZERO NADA ill effects.

[Coeus]

oh, also a taser is NOT a deadly weapon. and we can play legal rulings all you want, but that is not at all the judicial determination in our great nation

STATE v. MOCK
700 S.E.2d 248 (2010)
STATEv.MOCK.
No. COA09-1600.
Court of Appeals of North Carolina.

Filed October 19, 2010.
Certification Date November 8, 2010.

In this case, the defendant was convicted of assault with a deadly weapon. That weapon was a taser. His lawyer argued that a taser wasn't a deadly weapon. The court ruled differently. There are more cases like this as well.

[Coeus]

there is this erroneous assumption that some magickal aspect of the taser causes hearts to stop

I realize we don't necessarily have high standards for our police officers, but considering electricity magical should probably be a disqualifer.

[dunphy]

i realize you don't understand either physics or biology,but the current from a taser does not even reach the heart, let alone affect it.

again,show me autopsy reports that show that ANY electricity from the taser probes reached the heart.

show me one at least

i'll stand by

[Coeus]

An autopsy report from the Cook County's Medical Examiner's Office attributed the death of Ronald Hasse, 54, to electrocution from two Taser jolts delivered by a Chicago police officer.

(taser disputed the report, brought their considerable legal weight to bear, and had it changed to "excited delirium". There are scores of these.)

[dunphy]

did it specifically use the word "electrocution?" i'd be surprised if it did, since tasers can't electrocute people- they can shock them

regardless IF it said that, then you found an example.

oh, and that evil taser with their "considerable legal weight" lol.

yup, it's those darn corporashuns with their legal weight!

taser btw, is a pretty small company

it has a market cap of 275 million which puts it at the bottom 1/2 of companies in the small capitalization universe

it has an enterprise value of 226 million

in other words, it's a pretty frigging small company

but darn that evul corporashun bringing it's "considerable" (not really) legal weight .

[Coeus]

did it specifically use the word "electrocution?" i'd be surprised if it did, since tasers can't electrocute people- they can shock them

regardless IF it said that, then you found an example.

It did and I did. Not only that, there are more.

oh, and that evil taser with their "considerable legal weight" lol.

In the 6 fiscal quarters starting in 2005 (this time period emcompasses that case) taser spent 8 million dollars in legal fees. I would call that considerable.

[dunphy]

i'm not sure if i am supposed to take your word on it, since i haven't seen any autopsies that refer to an "electrocution" by a taser. i am confident you are asserting it is true.

i wouldnt call that considerable.

what did apple spend in those quarters, microsoft, GE

again, taser is a small company with a small legal budget.

small cap = small company

fuck, what did walmart spend in ONE quarter?

mcd's?

[Coeus]

i'm not sure if i am supposed to take your word on it

No one's asking you to. Google it yourself. All the relevant details are provided.

i wouldnt call that considerable.

As to what you would call considerable, who gives a fuck? An elephant is far smaller than an aircraft carrier. It's weight is still considerable.

[dunphy]

oh btw, you sound like a liberal deriding the heller decision as an example of how the "considerable" gun lobby and gun corporashuns (tm) used their "considerable legal weight" and influence to thwart the "real" meaning of the 2nd amendment

funhouse mirror libertarianism. it's what's for dinner@!

[Coeus]

oh btw, you sound like a liberal deriding the heller decision as an example of how the "considerable" gun lobby and gun corporashuns (tm) used their "considerable legal weight" and influence to thwart the "real" meaning of the 2nd amendment

funhouse mirror libertarianism. it's what's for dinner@!

Those cases are nothing alike and you know it. It's pretty telling that you've resorted to putting words in my mouth and making false comparisons. I believe it went this way last time we discussed the subject as well.

[Sy]

It's pretty telling that you've resorted to putting words in my mouth and making false comparisons. I believe it went this way last time we discussed the subject as well.

Yeah he does that sometimes.

[SIV]

i've been tased twice. no biggie. i would not volunteer to be struck with a baton

This kinda proves my point.

[Knee Jerk]

Alt headline:

Maryland Police Tase Panicked Car Crash Victim, 12 More Killed In Syrian Riots

[Joe M]

The question remains: did they yell "Stop resisting!" before they Tazed him?

[SIV]

You hardly ever hear about PCP anymore. I'm old enough to remember the drug scare days when "Angel Dust" was just so dangerous it made meth look like mother's milk. Milk from the mother you'd kill high on PCP !!1! I assume it has a relatively easy to obtain precursor(?) or otherwise it wouldn't be around anymore.

[SugarFree]

Ketamine stole its share of the dissociative market. PCP had to be made, whereas ketamine could be stolen from veterinarians. Special K took the high-end of the market and dextromethorphan the low-end.

I've smoked PCP-laced marijuana. It's not radically dissimilar to being very, very stoned. But I lost about an hour or so of time, and that was a little disturbing.

[Abdul]

"lost an hour of time?" or "nailed a really fat chick, but am sticking to the time fugue alibis?"

[SugarFree]

Mopeds, dude, mopeds.

[Joe M]

What I find amazing is how PCP and Ketamine are basically the same drug, with the same effects, yet PCP supposedly turns you into a rampaging maniac, which makes zero sense in terms of its pharmacological effects.

[dunphy]

there's no "supposedly" about it. heck, yer average PCP user will readily admit it has these effects.

there are many reasons that may account for the discrepancy in action vs. ketamine. among others, when PCP is smoked (which is the usual route of admin), it breaks down into 1-phenyl-1-cyclohexene (PC) and piperidine according to wikipedia.

iow, methods of taking the drug alter its effects

[dunphy]

there has been a lot of urban mythology regarding PCP laced mj.

fwiw, in lab reports, it is exceptionally rare to ever see PCP laced mj.

sherm laced mj can be almost anything. just because it's alleged to be PCP, you never know unless you get it tested. ime, it almost never is actual PCP.

sometimes it is, but rarely

[wylie]

you never know unless you get it tested

Man, did that idea ever backfire on me.

[IceTrey]

You were in Deebo's chicken coop.

[brotherben]

Got some gras that was said to have been dusted once....didn't care much for it. That was back when I really liked being in states of alternate reality.

[SIV]

Often that was just good weed. Good PCP used to come on parsley. Believe me, you KNOW when the parsley has been "dusted".

[ClubMedSux]

Can't speak for the drug, but the album is great.

[Warty]

He was probably on PCP. Broke every bone in his hand and wouldn't feel it for hours. There was this guy once, you see this scar?

[Brett L]

Nah. According to DARE if he was high on PCP he would have torn the car apart like tissue paper.

[sage]

Thanks, Bishop. Hold this body armor while I lay Sarah Connor down for a "nap". Don't you have a pumpkinhead to kill or something?

[Restoras]

+1

[Brendan Perez]

Last week he had this guy in here that burned his Afghan. He screwed it first and then he set it on fire..

[Brendan Perez]

Last week he had this guy in here that burned his Afghan. He screwed it first and then he set it on fire..

[Dagny T.]

Remember when McDonald's had McBLT's? I have a kooky old great aunt who was trying to order one at a drive-through and asked for a McPCP and a McLSD before landing on the right acronym. I hardly ever get to tell that story now that you never hear about PCP anymore.

[Almanian]

I like the way your great aunt thinks, and would like to add her to the marketing team for McAlmanian's Drugz-n-More stores

"McPCP"....LOLOLOL!

[Ventifact]

I hardly ever get to tell that story now that you never hear about PCP anymore.

Further proof, as if any were needed, that our society is in decline.

[SIV]

With the passing of James Brown, PCP has gone quite low-profile.

[Pip]

SUCK A SHIT-COVERED PIG DICK, DUNPHY!

[dunphy]

smooches pip!

[Pip]

Not with those shit-covered lips you're sporting.

[dunphy]

you just gotta work on those skinny little gymnast legs.

also, this explains a lot. gymnasts are almost always short

you clearly have inadequacy issues and now i see why...

shortman complex combined with former athletic star who now sits on his couch, trolls reason.com and rages rages against the dying of the light.

[NoVAHockey]

I don't get it. 2 medics and 3 guys (at least) on an engine crew can't strap on man to the backboard and stretcher?

[Tulpa]

There's kind of a Persians at Salamis effect when your only access to the guy is through a (possibly crumpled) doorway.

[NoVAHockey]

would love to see a picture of the car, as i'm an EMT volunteer. there are lots of ways to get a patient out of a car. probably would have calmed down or gotten out if they had started to cut the roof off.

[dunphy]

actually, that's kind of ironic because i recall one incident where a car occupant (DUI driver it turned out) was totally calm, but trapped in the vehicle and they couldn't get her out without sawing the roof of her truck.

once they broke out the saw, THAT's when she started flipping out "you're destroying my car" (which was pretty much totaled at that point anyway) but it was the only way to get her out safely according to fire, and that's THEIR call not ours.

also, not only did medics call for cops, but medics aren't trained to, nor are they supposed to try to extract resistant subjects. they are to avoid fights. it's not their job, they are not equipped, trained, or expected to go hands-on. i have seen medics get pissy ONCE somebody is strapped to a board all safe and sound but if somebody starts fighting with them, (at least in passive aggressive NW) they will back off and request police assistance

i speak as former medic and firefighter.

it varies, but generally speaking their protocol is back off and call the cops

fwiw, a person (assuming they are of sound mind) has to absolute right to refuse treament. once i saw a guy with a bone sticking out of his leg refuse treatment and the medics knew they couldn't do jack so they walked away because he refused treatment

however, when you have a ranting, high person (diminished capacity) and the person is refusing to get out of a car (was there a fire risk, did they need to remove the car from blocking the roadway, etc.) it's different

[jasno]

passive aggressive NW

Haha.. yeah.. pretty much sums it up.

[tarran]

Tulpa, that was a very nice turn of phrase. 😉

[Sandi]

I was born in Montgomery County, MD. First place I ever took a shit.

[Sandi]

True story.

[Fluffy]

It's still there, they call it Rockville now.

[dunphy]

don't go back there (to Rockville)

[dunphy]

lol on "panicked car crash victim"

how about "physically resistant uncooperative vehicle driver, involved in collision and high on PCP"

seriously, yet another Reason-biased-article-title

[Joe M]

There's nothing in the article that indicates he was high on PCP. Now who's biased?

[dunphy]

fair enough. he was acting consistent with being high on PCP, but it's hardly conclusive

acting consistent with being high on PCP and in possession of a vial of suspected PCP and resistant to repeated demands to get the Q@#(@# out of his vehicle, etc.

here's a general hint. in 20+ yrs of police work, EVERY SINGLE TIME a person acts like this at an accident time, they turned out to be DUI. it is remotely possible that some sort of weird head injury could cause the aggressive etc. behavior (anything possible with head injuries) but n=dozens, it's always been DUI

i'd offer odds this guy will have some sort of drug on board (not something mellow like pot either) like PCP, LSD, ETOH etc.

let's wait for the lab report.

but i agree. it can't be concluded he was high on PCP. that's my bad.

[Joe M]

here's a general hint. in 20+ yrs of police work, EVERY SINGLE TIME a person acts like this at an accident time, they turned out to be DUI. it is remotely possible that some sort of weird head injury could cause the aggressive etc. behavior (anything possible with head injuries) but n=dozens, it's always been DUI

Or they're diabetic:
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/20/2062.asp

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2....._1209.html

[dunphy]

that's a good point. i have not seen that happen, but i know an officer who had that exact situation happen to him. once he pulled the guy out of the car, he noticed the medic alert bracelet. he gave him some glucose and the guy instantly "got better"

glucose! the other sweet sticky goo!

[Mensan]

Haven't you said repeatedly that you were a medic. As a medic, shouldn't glycemia be the first thing you check when a patient is altered? How could you have worked as a medic for any length of time and never seen that?

[dunphy]

it depends what you mean by altered. when somebody is fighting with you, as was the case in this incident, how exactly do you check for blood sugar?

the medics tried to help the guy and get him from the vehicle (which likely was blocking traffic and had to be towed) and he started messing with them, so they said "help us police"

if ANYBODY would have recognized signs (assuming they existed), it would have been them. yet, at least as far as i could see- they didn't in this case.

there are all sorts of reasons why somebody MIGHT fight with police and medics. generally speaking, ONCE you get them restrained THEN you look for reasons, not the other way around. they still had to get the guy out of the car. do you suggest one of them rubbed some glucose on his finger and try to stick it in the guy's mouth whilke he was fighting because he MIGHT be diabetic?

seriously. people here have no concept how force incidents work or how the use of force continuum is applied

[A Secret Band of Robbers]

One way or another, the officers had some pretty good reasons to suspect diminished capacity. Their reaction was likely to be the same regardless of what diminished his capacity in the first place.

[Restoras]

Not being there and not knowing the condition of the wreck, couldn't they have just towed the friggin' thing with him in it? You know, to at least stop inconveniencing the other motorists? Put it on a flatbed and call a local wildlife control officer to hit him with a tranqulizer dart, just like on Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom!

I like how a vial of liquid PCP was found in the car. Before or after the victim was tased? Awefully convenient...

[SugarFree]

He might have been hurt if they towed the car with him in it. Better to tase him to death rather than risk hurting him.

[dunphy]

no, they can't tow it with the victim in the car. not only will no tow company do so, but i'm pretty sure it's illegal. i have never once seen a person towed INSIDE a vehicle, let alone a wrecked vehicle.

the first job of cops (and firefighters usually have to wait for cops to do this, although they can to some extent do some stuff) is to get the scene secured and safe. is the vehicle leaking fuel, does the car need to be removed from the roadway, etc. etc.?

there is no right to remain in a wrecked vehicle, especially if it's blocking the roadway, and furthermore, the driver has a duty to provide their info in a motor vehicle crash, etc.

[Butts Wagner]

i have never once seen a person towed INSIDE a vehicle

I was towed in a car on a flatbed tow truck.

[dunphy]

again, i can only speak to my jurisdiction(s). never anywhere where i have worked. the great thing about this laboratory of states is that -- stuff varies.

[Butts Wagner]

This was not in the US, which made it all the more fun.

[dunphy]

no, better this asshole complied. he didn't comply and he was apparently lawfully tased.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Noncompliance doesn't automatically equal asshole.

[Warty]

He didn't have a right to sit in the car perpendicular to traffic, you know.

[SugarFree]

Which is a death penalty offense, Warty. Meted out taser-style.

[dunphy]

which assumes taser caused the death, which is not in evidence either.

here's a hint. people die all the time in struggles, whether tased or not. i had a guy heart stopped beating after a short wrestling match (thank god fire was on scene and he revived).

taser can be a FACTOR, but so can his pre-existing injuries, medical conditions, excited delirium, drugs on board (especially polydrug combos) and a host of other factors.

the point is they had to get him out of the car and were completely justified in using reasonable force to do so.

i'm sad he died, but the ENTIRE fault lies with him.

he just as easily could have died if they had (tried to) wrestle him out of the car and on to the ground and into handcuffs.

we'll never know

[SugarFree]

He will certainly never fail to comply to get out of a car again. Really taught that civilian a lesson.

[Warty]

It was a LAWFUL ORDER. You can't just ignore LAWFUL ORDERS and expect to get away with no electro-torture. What is wrong with you?

[SugarFree]

Do what you're told, Warty, and maybe you won't get dead.

[Warty]

I always obey LAWFUL ORDERS from Officer Friendly. You think I have some sort of electro-torture wish?

[SugarFree]

Orders don't even have to be lawful in Indiana.

[Knee Jerk]

SugarFree|6.29.11 @ 3:19PM|#
Better to tase him to death

Another nitwit falls victim to the propagandistic headline.
Causality...how does it work again?

[Joe M]

I like how a vial of liquid PCP was found in the car. Before or after the victim was tased? Awefully convenient...

Yeah, I found this to be both suspicious and convenient myself, since PCP is almost never in liquid form. Maybe they're saying it might be PCP because that matches the "drug-crazed maniac" story best.

[dunphy]

i've personally bought both PCP and LSD in liquid form. neither are commonly possessed by end users. but frequently by dealers.

of course we don't KNOW what it is until the lab report comes back

[Pip]

"i've personally bought both PCP and LSD in liquid form."

So when you say "personally", you mean not in your capacity as a LEO, right?

[dunphy]

no, i mean personally as in *i* did it not that i read a case report or studied an incident.

i bought a vial of LSD (300 dosage units of LSD) and a vial of PCP while working in an undercover assignment.

in my entire career, those were the only times i ever saw either drug in liquid form. end users generally buy blotter or something when it comes to LSD etc. we don't see it very often in law enforcement, at least at the street level

[dunphy]

i mean in my capacity as LEO.

although that brown acid at woodstock was a bad trip, man

[P Brooks]

if the guy is refusing to get out of the car, after demands, etc. and they had to tase him to gain compliance... tough.

Fearless Fosdick speaks:

OBEY

[P Brooks]

He didn't have a right to sit in the car perpendicular to traffic, you know.

It's a PRIVILEGE, not a right, you ignoramus!

[dunphy]

it's neither.

it's really fucking simple. when you are told to get out of the car and/or medics try to help you get out of the car (usually they will apply a C-colllar first when the person complies) - you get out of the fucking car.

not that difficult.

[robc]

it's really fucking simple. when you are told to get out of the car ... you get out of the fucking car.

Why? No seriously, why?

At a certain point he violates the law, then you can read him his rights and arrest him, but until that point, why should he do anything just because you fucking tell him?

[A Secret Band of Robbers]

I'm pretty sure that had he been in Libertopia, before he could cruise the private roads, he'd have to agree to obey emergency services in the event of an accident.

That said, I don't understand why the police didn't arrest him first. dunphy?

[dunphy]

i have no idea. do you mean custodially arrest? how do you do that when he's still in the car?

the point is - assuming they had valid reason to order him from the car, he has no right to resist.

if the car was blocking the roadway, or they needed to move it, or whatever they could order him from the car.

[P Brooks]

Careful, Fosdick, the mask is slipping. Your baboon-troop authoritarian face is showing.

[P Brooks]

he didn't comply and he was apparently lawfully tased.

Noncompliance is a capital offense.

You can look it up.

[SugarFree]

I think it's a great idea to always obey the cops, just like any other paramilitary force that can kill me on a whim and face no consequences for it whatever beyond a paid vacation.

[dunphy]

tasing is not deadly force. if you are physically resistant to lawful orders, and you get tased - tough shit.

a person can die subsequent to the cops wrestling you into handcuffs, too

neither is a death penalty.

any more than playing basketball is a death penalty, or running (jim fixx)

[Anonymous Coward]

tasing is not deadly force.

Neither is punching someone and yet people have died from being punched.

[dunphy]

correct. and if cops are justified in punching somebody, and he dies, it's justified. people can die from all kinds of shit. i read a case where a guy actually died from a baton strike to his LEG. wild, crazy stuff man!

[Anonymous Coward]

And that's why cops are better than ordinary people. Cop applies force that turns out to be lethal even though he didn't intend for it to be, it's justified, he's got immunity and he gets a commendation. Ordinary guy applies force that turns out to be lethal even though he didn't intend for it to be, he goes down for manslaughter.

Some animals are more equal than others.

And you could feasibly kill someone with a baton strike to the leg, maybe if you hit them in the femoral artery with enough force to rupture it.

[dunphy]

so some prosecutors suck? there's a shocking piece of news. i fortunately choose to live in a state where self defense is better respected for civilians and cops.

regardless, if the prosecutors are doing their job - if the force is justified whether by cop or civilian,then it's justified.

what you say is SOMETIMES true, but hardly always true. like i said, in my state (one of the reasons i chose it) the right of self defense is strongly respected

heck, just the other day i had a guy who wanted to call in an assault by firearm. it turns out based on what the (alleged) victim told me, what the guy with the firearm did was entirely legal, and thus he had no case.

shit like that don't make the papers

i don't like prosecutorial misconduct any more than you do.

and just like you, i'll call it where i see it

[Warty]

it's really fucking simple. when you are told to get out of the car and/or medics try to help you get out of the car (usually they will apply a C-colllar first when the person complies) - you get out of the fucking car.

Do what the alpha chimp wants and you won't get your balls ripped off.

[dunphy]

do what the law requires and the cops won't have to use force.

it's called rule of law.

deal with it.

the medics called the cops and the cops did what the job required

[Warty]

I know better than to argue with cops. I don't want to get electrotortured.

[dunphy]

yea, both times i got "electrotortured" (lol what rubbish" it was horrendous. i swear it was like being waterboarded or having my fingernails pulled out (rolls eyes)

[Coeus]

You said you choose to be tased. That's like saying that rape and consensual sex are the same thing.

[dunphy]

no, it's like the histrionics of calling being tased lawfully "electrotorture". a taser CAN be used as a torture device. so can a pencil. in this incident, it wasn't an electrotorture device.

just like consent can change sex to rape etc. justification and method of application matters too.

not all sex is rape, unless it's hetero sex and you are andrea dworkin

[dunphy]

and in that case, the cop was correctly prosecuted (and balko fwiw agreed with the verdict as do i).

that was unlawful...

this (apparently) was not

[Anonymous Coward]

do what the law requires and the cops won't have to use force.

it's called rule of law.

Stop resisting! Stop resisting! STOP RESISTING!

And when you stop resisting pray that Officer Friendly knows the difference between a taser and a firearm.

[Abdul]

Crashing cars and fucking up traffic is not a victimless offense. Even more so in the highly congested DC suburbs.

It gets out of the car and into the ambulance or it gets the hose again.

[?]

Libertarianism requires a few broken eggs. Do you want your omelet or not?

[Anonymous Coward]

Crashing cars and fucking up traffic is not a victimless offense.

Fucked up though it may be, inconveniencing other drivers is not the same as victimizing them.

[dunphy]

generally speaking, neither crashing cars nor fucking up traffic by doing so are offenses in the first place- victimless or otherwise.

[P Brooks]

STOP RESISTING

[P Brooks]

it's called rule of law.

Good one, Fosdick.

[Mensan]

PCP allegations aside; people with head injurues are often combative too.

[dunphy]

true dat. although i've never seen it to the point where medics themself couldn't get such a victim calmed down

note that heroin overdoses also get REALLY fucking annoyed after being injected by narcan, although the one I just had recently was totally mellow d00d

[SIV]

Suddenly they're not high anymore. I can see why that might be annoying to a heroin user. They should learn to appreciate that consolation prize called "breathing".

[dunphy]

yea. that's exactly it. they are pissed off because narcan is basically like withdrawal in a syringe. they go from high(or high and dead) to wide awake and pissed off!

[imhotep]

Dunphy,

You made two points far above:

"now please point me to an autopsy report that concludes a suspect was "electrocuted" by a taser...

i'll stand by on that (likely forever)."

Yet when shown exactly what you presumed could not exist you immediately dismissed its relevance. The thing is that tasers ARE lethal force and need to be thought of as such. You claim you have been tased and many other LE as well. Fine. You all survived. Would you be so willing and cavalier if instead of experiencing it yourself you had to tase your children and your parents? I hope not.

Regarding this specific instance, you made this remark:

"they had to get him out of the car"

Here is my question - Why? In this situation the guy was literally "stuck" inside his car so by definition he wasn't an immediate threat to anybody. Also, since he was resisting, one may presume there was no immediate threat to his own safety from injuries sustained. Therefore, if the goal is to be able to tow the car from the highway, why not do just that with Mr. PCP inside?

The tragedy here is that the cops involved did not intend to use lethal force. That is clear by definition. Yet the result was death. How many other circumstances are there in law enforcement where a cop does not intend to use lethal force and yet death is still the result? That is the problem with tasers and why they should be banned or at least it should be admitted that they are something more than non-lethal force.

[Swedish libertarian]

Wait, people actually talk to cops here, as if they were thinking beings worthy of attention? I thought this was one of the few places they would get the lack of respect they deserve.