Obama Administration Lawyer Dodges Question About Limits on Congressional Power, Claims Health Insurance Mandate is Not A Requirement to Purchase Insurance
At a Wednesday hearing in Ohio on the constitutionality of ObamaCare's individual mandate to purchase health insurance, a judge asked an Obama administration to define the limit of Congressional power under the Constitution's Commerce Clause. From The New York Times:
One judge, James L. Graham, pressed that question on Wednesday with Neal K. Katyal, the acting United States solicitor general, who is defending the law for the Obama administration.
"Where, ultimately, is the limit on Congress's power?" the judge asked.
Mr. Katyal responded that the government had never suggested that there were no limits.
"Where are they?" Judge Graham continued. "I want to find them."
I wish Judge Graham good luck with his quest, but I don't expect he'll have much success. He may want to find and define the limits of congressional power, but apparently the Obama administration doesn't. Rather than answer Graham's question directly, the lawyer arguing the case for the mandate instead made the odd claim that the law's individual mandate to purchase health insurance coverage is not, in fact, a requirement to buy health insurance coverage. The NYT continues:
Mr. Katyal then argued that the law's insurance mandate, which takes effect in 2014, does not so much require individuals to buy coverage as it does regulate the way they pay for health care they will inevitably consume. Without the mandate, Mr. Katyal said, the law's requirement that insurers provide coverage to all applicants, regardless of their health status, would simply encourage people to buy insurance after they got sick.
"Congress is not regulating the failure to buy something, but the failure to secure financing," Mr. Katyal said.
This isn't the first time the administration has attempted to characterize the mandate as something other than a requirement to buy insurance. In May, a lawyer for the White House told a different judge that the mandate is "not asking people to buy something they otherwise might not buy." This latest attempt to redefine the mandate as something other than a mandate seems rather tortured, but given the Obama's long history of flip-flops on the mandate, it is perhaps not surprising that the administration is now trying to pursuade judges that a provision requiring the purchase of health insurance is not really a requirement to purchase insurance at all.
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The revolution can't come soon enough.
In total seriousness, it breaks my heart to the point of tears and fury that this is how low the great freeman's republic has stooped.
Congress is not regulating the failure to buy something, but the failure to secure financing
Except that Congress has also said there is no need to secure that financing in advance, by requiring insurance companies to sell it to you after you get sick.
Since you can get financing at any time, why is it "necessary and proper" for Congress to order you to arrange it when you don't need it?
Because Congress wants your money - as collected by the insurance companies. It's a revenue thing - always was.
This part is true, but it doesn't change the definition of the word mandate: an authoritative command, in this case, a command to buy coverage. The disingenuous linguistic pirouettes going on here would make Bill Clinton blush.
If one is sympathetic to the Kenyan Keynesian, one might be tempted to employ a euphemism such as "linguistic pirouettes" to describe the general approach to the truth taken by the mendacious mulatto and his goons.
Sans euphemism: it's bullshit. 😉
Does the law use the word "mandate"?
Just looked it up. The word mandate does not appear in that section of the law.
I knew a guy who sold cars. And he explained to me once how he was formally trained to counter any objection a customer may have. The details are lost to me, but he drew a box with four quadrants. Each quadrant was a customer objection. He was trained on how to respond to "move" the customer from box to box; basically no matter what the customer said, he had a counter. Even if it contradicted a previous statement. It was like an endless loop, the only way out being to buy the car.
Listening to the lawyers' defense of Obamacare is kind of like a used car salesman's line of bullshit.
And we are going to have years--years--of this. It will be a fucking eternal cycle of shifting from box to box. Oh joy.
Job security! Now lets talk about my pention.
And also my pension...
..and don't forget, Obama's a relatively young guy. We're going to have decades of him rationalizing and justifying this. In fact, I'm older than him, so I just had the chilling realization that I'll be hearing his bullshit the rest of my life.
Fuck. He's only 27 years older than me. I will be a fairly old man before he stops popping up.
the only way out being to buy the car
Or, of course, to simply turn on your heel and walk out the door.
..and that's where the analogy breaks down. Monopoly on force and all that.
Well there's always expatriation.
And then you can move to.... uh....
wait for it....
Somalia!
Better, you make a noisy ruckus about being given the run around as you head on out for the door.
It is fun to watch the doubts start to appear on the faces of other potential customers as you complain at the top of your lung about treatment they are also being subjected to.
Alas, I actually need to find a new ride, so I didn't stay around to see if anyone else bailed.
mainer - ive met time-share reps who acted exactly like that car salesman. 'cept he had no counter for me saying "its my money & i chose not to buy". salesman "why"? me "take care". ez
Soon everyone will be required to snack on ciabatta while sipping Fernet Branca and discussing the ins and outs of gender norms.
Everyone knows Fernet Branca is a digestif you lowborn fool.
The fact that Slippery Slope did not know that proves that your assertion is incorrect.
"Congress is not regulating the failure to buy something, but the failure to secure financing," Mr. Katyal said."
That sounds a lot like the Gingrich/AEI bond requirement thingee.
I don't understand why Katal just didn't say "Lopez and Morrison clearly establish what is off limits under the Commerce Power."
Shit, I should be SG.
Except Lopez and Morrison don't really help on that front.
The Lopez and Morrison cases rested on the conclusion that the regulations at issue did not actually regulate anything commercial or economic. In Lopez, the court said that carrying a gun was not commercial or economic, and so the Gun-Free School Zone Act's ban on carrying guns was not a commercial or economic regulation. In Morrison, the court said the same thing about violence against women.
The question isn't "Can Congress issue regulations that aren't commercial or economic under the Commerce Clause". The question is "Are there any commercial or economic regulations that Congress can't issue under the Commerce Clause."
No, Graham's question was:
"Where, ultimately, is the limit on Congress's power?" the judge asked.
Under Lopez and Morrison that limit is clear as you just conceded.
Now, if you ask the different question: "Are there any commercial or economic regulations that Congress can't issue under the Commerce Clause" I would say "Under current case law, no."
But seeing as to how there are entire worlds of life activities that are not directly commercial or economic that isn't resulting in a limitless government.
Right, and existing as a U.S. citizen clearly constitutes commercial or economic activity subject to regulation as "commerce among the several states."
Look, we've been over this. The power to regulate includes the power to mandate as well as the power to direct or prohibit.
If you as an employer have the power to regulate what your employees do with their time at work you have the power to tell them not only what they may not do and how they must do the things they do, but the power to order them to do things as well.
It's hardly some radical, wacky way of reading the word "regulate."
And if they, as an employee, do not want to work under those rules you've established, they are free to opt out by quitting.
With the Obamacare mandate, where is my option to quit the system?
Somalia!
An employer/employee relationship is voluntary. The employee sacrifices some of their rights in order to remain employed.
The government/taxpayer relationship is not voluntary. Pay taxes (give up your right to property) or go to jail. This is the radical position.
The power to regulate includes the power to mandate as well as the power to direct or prohibit.
No it doesn't. In Lopez, the court found that the commerce clause did not apply to the Gun Free School Zones Act, because the possession of a gun cannot, therefore, be sustained under the Court's cases upholding regulations of activities that arise out of or are connected with a commercial transaction, which viewed in the aggregate, substantially affects interstate commerce.
Key phrase - Commercial transaction. If someone chooses not to buy a product, they have not entered into a commercial transaction, therefor the refusal to purchase a good, can;t be regulated.
The court then went on to state To uphold the Government's contention that 922(q) is justified because firearms possession in a local school zone does indeed substantially affect interstate commerce would require this Court to pile inference upon inference in a manner that would bid fair to convert congressional Commerce Clause authority to a general police power of the sort held only by the States
This part was upheld in Morrison, when the court stated that the Violence Against Women Act, was supported by numerous findings regarding the serious impact of gender-motivated violence on victims and their families, these findings are substantially weakened by the fact that they rely on reasoning that this Court has rejected, namely a but-for causal chain from the initial occurrence of violent crime to every attenuated effect upon interstate commerce. If accepted, this reasoning would allow Congress to regulate any crime whose nationwide, aggregated impact has substantial effects on employment, production, transit, or consumption.
The rationale for the individual mandate, is dependent on this form of inference upon inference reasoning. In order for the feds to justify the mandate, they have to prove that my choice not to purchase insurance, increases the price for everyone else. To make this case, they have to convince the court that, by not purchasing insurance, an individual will still seek medical treatment, refuse to make arrangements to pay for services rendered, and then have those costs passed onto the national insurance market. This is no slam dunk.
Additionally, by increasing demand for medical services, with out an increase in the supply of doctors, the price for health care will go up. It's basic supply and demand. The feds need to prove that the increased cost to consumers, under the mandate, will be less than costs to consumers, as a result of "free riders".
Yeah, and you keep missing the point (seemingly on purpose).
Sure, Congress can "regulate." WHAT does Congress have power to "regulate"? Me, sitting on my sofa, doing nothing?
No.
Congress has the power to regulate "commerce among the several states."
I.e., the pre-requisite is that there must be something there for Congress to regulate. There must be "commerce" occurring "among the states". If there is nothing happening - everyone is sitting on their hands; nobody is engaging in any commerce with anyone else - there is no power for Congress to require people to get off their asses and do something. Congress can't say, "Hey! You two! You buy some produce from that guy." But if there is commerce occurring "among the states", then yeah, Congress can regulate it.
What Congress is doing is saying I have to engage in commerce.
Your analogy of an employer-employee relationship is completely inapposite and has no bearing whatsoever on the question of what powers Congress has.
Congress has no power to require me to engage in commerce where I am not already doing so. And drop the stupid fucking argument that "making the decision not to buy insurance" constitutes "commerce among the states." Because that's horse shit.
It's actually an elementary component of constitutional law -- that the power to "regulate" is to remove antagonistic impediments between the various governments of the states and their dealings with each other, and nothing else, whether intrastate or interstate.
But dick-up-my-ass liberals and faux-republicans haven't been listening for a hundred years, so why should they start now?
WHAT does Congress have power to "regulate"?
Economic activity connected to a commercial transaction.
Doing nothing is not a commercial transaction.
WHAT does Congress have power to "regulate"? Me, sitting on my sofa, doing nothing?
You would think so, but under the new Commerce Clause jurisprudence, your couch, or some part of your couch, or the fuel used to transport the couch from one location to its present location for you to put under your ass, or some part of the vehicle used to transport the couch, has traveled across state lines. Therefore, your couch, and you sitting on it, can be regulated under the Commerce Clause.
Now I need a stiff drink and a shower after that because I feel dirty on the inside and the outside.
I've entered into an at-will employment arrangement with the Feds? Do tell.
Oh, and "You're not the boss of me!"
"Where, ultimately, is the limit on Congress's power?" the judge asked.
The Second Amendment.
Damn joke names.
All this because they didn't want to call it a tax. Hoist on their own petard.
Just to be clear, I would be against it even if it were called a tax. If they called it a tax, the judge would still be able to ask the question, what is the limit of federal power?
You'd have to take that shit up with the Founders. The Taxation Clause is an even more unfettered grant of power than the Commerce Clause.
No, the taxation clause is not an unfettered grant of power. If one is to honestly apply the meaning of the words chosen, one must conclude that the language that the "congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes" does not mean that congress has the power to COERCE people into paying them or that it has the power to enact criminal statutes and create administrative agencies to create tax law. If the framers had intended to give congress such power, they would have so said. They did not.
Moreover, any tax law that congress enacts must be in pursuance of First Principles, i.e., the spirit of 1776, the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation and the federal constitution. All legislation is subject to the former. If the bill conflicts with the principles enunciated in the Declaration of Independence, the bill is out of bounds.
Remember, the Declaration of Independence is also the law of the land. It has never been abrogated nor do any of the branches of government have any power to abrogate the Declaration of Independence.
It grants a power to "collect" taxes.
How did you think it was going to do this, bake sales?
the Declaration of Independence is also the law of the land.
Actually, no, it's not.
Have you read it?
It does not set forth any "law of the land" for the United States.
The Declaration was an open letter to the nations of the world explaining what the new "United States of America" was doing in declaring itself free and independent from England, and why. It does not purport to establish the government of the USA or any law governing the country.
Yes, it expresses the fundamental principles of natural law that motivated the founders and that they believed in, and yes, it might help add some color to an understanding of what the Framers were thinking and believed with respect to the balance of individual rights versus government power, but the Declaration itself is not a law and has no legal force in the U.S. What would be "enforceable" in the Declaration anyhow? It does not purport to set forth any legal requirements or standards.
And the Articles of Confederation? What?
""" does not mean that congress has the power to COERCE people into paying them""
Tell that to George Washington.
The tax power is also limited, that's why the 16th amendment was necessary.
Wasn't the 16th meant to allow for this limitation found in the T & S Clause?
but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States
It provides a singular exception (income tax), but it doesn't strike that language. The tax power is still limited.
It provides a singular exception (income tax), but it doesn't strike that language. The tax power is still limited.
a judge asked an Obama administration to define the limit of Congressional power under the Constitution's Commerce Clause.
Much hilarity ensued.
The lawyer probably suffered a mind-fuck at that point, wondering if the judge was serious.
The judge's question is the right one, and should be fatal to the Administration's case.
What are the principled limits on the the federal government's Commerce Clause powers if the insurance mandate is approved? I'm having a very hard time coming up with any.
Everyone is involved in economic activity that, taken in the aggregate, directly or indirectly, affects Interstate Commerce. The Administration seems to be arguing that this means that the Commerce Clause thus allows the federal government to regulate all economic activity.
This problem, of course, isn't new with ObamaCare. It dates all the way back to the original New Deal cases. It used to be that the feds effectively exercised their power only over current economic activity in a market that was at least related to regulation they were imposing.
But that doesn't work for ObamaCare. They pretty much have to argue that all economic regulation is justified under the Commerce Clause because everyone has some economic activity, regardless of whether they are actually active in a related market.
IOW, no limits.
RC
We had this discussion the other day. Under Lopez and Morrison the feds cannot regulate activity or inactivity that is not directly economic.
Short of directly regulating thought, what activity is not "directly economic"? And further, so many activities are "directly economic" that almost anything that is important to people can be not just controlled but mandated by your rational. Literally, under your theory, the government could mandate, what people eat, when they go to bed, where they work, how they get there, what clothes they wear, virtually anything. Under your theory, the government could turn the contry into a national prison.
They could mandate attendance at tractor pulls.
Not attendance, just purchase of tickets.
Attendance would violate the 8th Amendment.
So you would be okay with the government telling everyone they must buy tickets to an event? They must say go to the symphony three times a year. You think that is constitutional? Buying tickets is definitely an economic activity.
And please explain how the country is in anyway a free country if the government can force you to attend any event or buy any product it chooses?
Buying tickets is, attendance is not.
They have the power to make you buy tickets, but they don't have the power to make you attend.
Of course, I'd be against making people buy tickets just like I am against making them buy insurance. But is it unconstitutional? Doesn't seem that way to me. Not everything was supposed to be a constitutional issue. It's a political issue.
Wow. Just, wow. The federal government has a Constitutional authorization to compel people do spend their money on anything at any time.
I'm pretty sure the 9th amendment would cover that. Perhaps even the 4th.
They have the power to make you buy tickets
Oh fucking A, you can't possibly be serious. Now you're just trolling.
Show me where there is ANY historical support, either in the founding documents, the Federalist, or ANY SCOTUS decision supporting the proposition that Congress has the legitimate power under the Commerce Clause to require individuals to go spend their money on any particular product.
Un-fucking believable.
It's not purely a political issue. It most certainly damn well is a constitutional one.
Under the logic used to support the individual mandate, of course they can force you to attend. If the government can mandate the purchase of baseball tickets, then they can regulate all activities related to the purchase of a ticket, which would include attendance.
Attendance has a direct economic effect of the financial health of a sports franchise. If no one attends, then no one is spending money on beer, hot dogs, pretzels, etc. Attendance also effects the economic decisions of franchise owners, related to stadium expansion and the number of luxury boxes.
How so ? By not actually traveling to the tractor pull, your inactivity has an economic effect. So that can be mandated also.
See the thing about your theory of regulate=make rules=mandate...it isn't really an argument. It's an after the fact rationalization of Obamacare.
And the other day, you said on another thread, you were only going to go over this one more time. And yet, here we go again.
Yes, and here you are going over it, so wtf?
You're right it's not an argument, it's just a common meaning of the word "regulate", nothing radical about the conception at all. That's why if you use it in other contexts where you don't have such an ideological dog in the fight, like a parent's power to regulate his kid's after school time or an employers power to regulate his employee's on-work time, it fits so nicely.
I think you've got a few more posts on the subject in this thread than I do. I was just kind of hoping when I read your recent post that you were only going to go over this ONE more time, that you meant it.
Because it makes you upset to see arguments you disagree with, I understand.
More like bemused. You've made your case, you add nothing to it, you go over the same ground, and your argument won't get any traction. In exasperation, you say you're only going to say it ONE more time. So it's really more the heartbreak of your broken promise.
Could the government mandate people move to low-population states?
If not, why not?
Moving is not a directly economic issue.
It was the dissent in Lopez and Morrison who reasoned like that ("well, when you move you have to pay for gas and hire a moving company" or worse "the more people in a state the more business tends to move to that state"). Incidental economic effects don't do it.
I think it's pretty clear that moving between states is more like interstate commerce than choosing not to buy health insurance within one state.
The moving between states is protected by other parts of the Constitution (the P & I clause of Article 4 iirc).
Moving is not a directly economic issue.
Of course it is. I spend money on gas, I work, I live, nothing is more directly economic than where I live.
Again, the gas is incidental. You're a lawyer, when things like that get brought up in contract cases they even call them incidental expenses, right?
Come on MNG, if buying insurance is "direct economic activity" moving to a state sure as hell is to. What is your definition of "direct economic activity" other than "something that MNG thinks it is not too crazy for the government to mandate"?
People move to states for all kinds of reasons, sometimes to be in a better climate, to be near a friend or relative, to escape a disliked state policy. Moving is not a fundamentally economic activity. Buying insurance is.
But the government could mandate that you move to another state for economic reasons, yes?
No, no more than they could mandate that you carry a firearm in a school zone for 'economic' reasons (say, to make the schools safer therefore encouraging more commerce along the way or some such nonsense) because it would be incidentally economic.
Economic decisions have to do with purchases and production of things.
Holy shit, Minge. Talk about your shovel-ready arguments. You might want to stop digging before reaching the Earth's core
"But the government could mandate that you move to another state for economic reasons, yes?"
Yup.
Moving is not a fundamentally economic activity. Buying insurance is.
What about NOT buying insurance? Or NOT moving? How is NOT buying something fundamentally an economic activity.
Right now I'm NOT buying a cup of Starbucks coffee. Can Congress enace legislation telling me that at 10:00 a.m. local time every day, I have to go buy a cup of Starbucks coffee?
Does moving the goalposts count as economic activity?
Moving is not a directly economic issue.
Sure it is. I hire a mover to carry my belongings to another state. That expressly is interstate commerce. I move to that other state and start spending my money there.
You've twisted yourself up so much you can't even see your cognitive dissonance.
You're correct. The court stated in Lopez, that the connection between possessing a gun in a school zone, and economic activity, depended upon inference upon inference. So does the individual mandate.
The decision not to purchase health insurance, by itself, does not increase the cost of insurance. What does increase the cost of insurance, is if a person refuses not to purchase insurance, gets sick, goes to the ER, receives treatment, then refuses to pay for that treatment. This inference upon inference, assumes that a person who does not purchase insurance, would decide to go to the ER, and if so, that they would refuse to make arrangements to pay the bill.
There is no direct cause and effect relationship between the purchase of health insurance, and the price of health insurance.
Or force people to house non-military Jews?
Attendance would violate the 8th Amendment.
Given the way the government has been pissing on the 4th Amendment with utter impunity, I don't find this statement all that comforting.
Well, maybe we should all head over to Wal-mart and stock up on overalls for the coming tractor pull mandate...
Which, as you said earlier, is constitutional.
Your beliefs are oh-so false, MNG.
Owing to the commerce clause, at most, Congress has the power to direct, rule (what the word regulate means) the steps of transaction for ticket sales.
Yet Congress lacks any authority to force anyone to purchase tickets.
Article I, Section 8, Clause 3:
"[The Congress shall have Power] To regulate Commerce ... among the several States ..."
Rightly interpreted, the article and its clause means to rule over the rules of transaction, but not the amount of transaction.
In spite of bogus USSC rulings over the Commerce Clause, the above explanation is the one and only right one.
Forced attendance to strip clubs! Oh the humanity. But the government would never be that cool. It would be forced attendence to Celine Dion concerts.
Could they do that as a requirement under a redrafted NAFTA? If so, those canucks should be forced to attend Vicente Fernandez shows and the messikins are gonna have to go to see Ke$ha annually.
Lot's of activity is not directly economic. For example, the carrying of a firearm near a school, or the decision to sexually assault someone (Lopez and Morrison).
Ironically it is only if you think like the dissenting justices in those cases who used a 'substantial effects on steroids' line of thought do you get the idea that everything is economic.
Just because lots of things are not "directly economic" doesn't mean your interpretation isn't outragous. You might be able to get away with it if regulating only meant controling action. But when you start saying regulating means "mandating" someone do something, you are pretty much turning the country into a prison. There is nothing to stop the government from telling me not just if I chose to do X I am regulated. But I must by law do X. That is the difference. And that is why this is a different case than Lopez.
But it's a quite ordinary, commonly accepted understanding of the idea "to regulate" to include mandates.
In Art. I Congress is given the power to make "regulations" for the military. Do you want to argue that does not include some mandates as well as controlling already existing behavior?
Control people who chose to go in the military. And the military is the lone exception where the government can compell service. By your theory it is not an exception. We can be drafted into any activity as long as it is economic.
But we are not talking about that, we are talking about the mere meaning of the word "regulate". Art I. says that once there is a military, Congress has the power to make "regulations" for it. Now, is it wacky and outrageous to think that the term "regulations" includes mandates, or do you want to argue they cannot make soldiers do anything, just direct what they already choose to do?
But we are not talking about that, we are talking about the mere meaning of the word "regulate".
No, MNG, we're talking about the meaning of the words "Commerce among the States." The argument is about whether not buying health insurance constitutes "Commerce among the States" that can be regulated.
That is perhaps the crux of the issue. You focus on the words "commerce among the states" for your argument that the power to regulate only applies to already existing commerce. I understand that.
But I'm focusing on the words "power to regulate" and arguing that a normal, common understanding of the power to regulate includes the power to make mandates.
As long as the mandates, direction and/or prohibitions are aimed at commerce (economic matters), then it falls under the power to regulate quite nicely.
But I'm focusing on the words "power to regulate" and arguing that a normal, common understanding of the power to regulate includes the power to make mandates.
The "power to regulate" what? pray tell.
"Commerce among the States" you say. But there is no commerce taking place, in this instance. So, what is there to regulate?
But I'm focusing on the words "power to regulate" and arguing that a normal, common understanding of the power to regulate includes the power to make mandates.
Except that Congress does not have a naked, plenary "power to regulate".
"But I'm focusing on the words "power to regulate" and arguing that..."
But that power to regulate's meaning is dependent on the phrase "commerce among the states", focusing on that one phrae while ignoring the other is far too abstract and proves too much. you just all but admitted you are peddling nonsense.
@R C Dean|6.3.11 @ 12:20PM|#
See what he does there? Argument for argument's sake. I contend it's a form of mental illness.
No, not mental illness. BASIC.
10 POWER TO REGULATE
20 COMMERCE AMONG THE STATES
30 GOTO 10
we are talking about the mere meaning of the word "regulate".
And here is your error.
We're talking about the meaning of "commerce among the several states." Given, Congress can "regulate" (using your formulation, "make rules about"). But what it can regulate is COMMERCE, not the lack of it.
Your view swallows the entire concept of a government of specifically enumerated and limited powers, with all other non-delegated powers retained by the states and the people. Because if Congress truly can mandate that you buy anything in the name of "regulating" commerce, then Congress become practically all-powerful and there is virtually no aspect of daily life it lacks power over.
But the purchasing of the firearm is economic.
Likewise, the decision to get healthcare or not is not economic. But the decision of whether to purchase it and how is. The administration starts out with the entirely unsupported claim that everyone will get healthcare in order to get to the conclusion that they can regulate how everyone pays for it. But there are plenty of people that don't want to and/or will never use the traditional healthcare system. This 'inference upon inference,' and 'assumption on assumption' to get to the economic connection of an activity is precisely what the Morrison and Lopez courts said wasn't not permissible.
the government could turn the contry into a national prison.
I think they are working very hard and making good progress in that regard.
what he said
Only when this country is a prison will we be truly free.
Freedom means being free from the drudgery of choice, responsibility and consequence.
What choices do you have in life if you are a prisoner? None of consequence. Everything important is taken care of for you.
This frees you to pursue to pinnacle of the hierarchy of needs.
Freedom is slavery.
Freedom is slavery
Chains are our salvation.
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
If the mandate is upheld, than congress can mandate any activity related to the cost of health care. If their is a shortage in the supply of cardiologists, thereby increasing the cost of a heart surgery, congress could mandate that all med students are required to specialize in cardiology. Congress could also regulate the consumption of any foods that were linked to illnesses that increase the cost of health care.
This was one of the concerns raised in Morrison. If the court accepted the argument made in support of the Violence Against Women Act, then the same reasoning would allow Congress to regulate any crime whose nationwide, aggregated impact has substantial effects on employment, production, transit, or consumption. Moreover, such reasoning will not limit Congress to regulating violence, but may be applied equally as well to family law and other areas of state regulation since the aggregate effect of marriage, divorce, and childrearing on the national economy is undoubtedly significant.
I think MNG is taking the position that there is absolutely no commercial or economic activity that is beyond Congress's Commerce Clause authority.
That, in short, the power to "regulate Commerce among the States" is synonymous with regulating any and all economic activity.
Am I mischaracterizing your position, MNG? If so, could you identify an economic activity that Congress may not regulate?
Not just regulating but mandating participation in any chosen economic activity.
boy, I wish I could find Minge's post where he said he was only going to go over this ONE more time.
If it makes you stop actually weeping during this discussion, I'll just say I meant one more time in that thread.
That little twist actually made me laugh out loud.
QUIT MOVING ME!
and he is also suggesting* _everything_ is economic activity, therefore the government can regulated _everything_.
except for mandated tractor pull attendance.
Let me take a second to demonstrate how palpably stupid Lord Bigguns here is:
Lord Humungus|6.3.11 @ 12:13PM|#
and he is also suggesting* _everything_ is economic activity, therefore the government can regulated _everything_.
MNG|6.3.11 @ 11:47AM|#
Lot's of activity is not directly economic.
Notice the time stamps. In about half a dozen posts on this very thread I've argued that many things are not directly economic.
only things you don't like, Minge.
My position is that under Lopez/Morrison the only line is that of which you speak of, any and all directly economic decisions fall under the power.
Now how I think the Commerce Clause should be read is a bit different. I think it is textually a broad grant of power, but I myself have some trouble with the "substantial effects" doctrine, because it seems to take the clause so far out of the textual limitation that the commerce be "among..the states." I understand the logic, that without it the Commerce Clause power would be pretty much gutted. I guess I would want to see some actual showing that intra-state behavior would 1. be likely to be done in the aggregate in the first place and if so 2. that the effect would indeed be substantial (something more than 'noticeable' or even 'significant').
My position is that under Lopez/Morrison the only line is that of which you speak of, any and all directly economic decisions fall under the power.
How is this different from saying that there is absolutely no commercial or economic activity that is beyond Congress's Commerce Clause authority?
I'm sorry for any confusion RC, I thought I plainly said that under Lopez and Morrison all directly economic/commercial activity falls under the Commerce Clause.
I then told you where I deviate from the current caselaw under Morrison/Lopez.
I guess I would want to see some actual showing that intra-state behavior would 1. be likely to be done in the aggregate in the first place
That test can be met whenever more than one person engages in the activity. Not much of a limitation.
and if so 2. that the effect would indeed be substantial (something more than 'noticeable' or even 'significant').
"Substantial", of course, is in the eye of the beholder, and its utility evaporates upon application. Would a law that is claimed to save "even one life" or "protect the children" be insubstantial? I don't think so.
I guess I'd want done in the aggregate to mean something more than simply plural...For example when courts examine possible exceptions to the Controlled Substance Act for religious minorities the government always claims that any exemption undermines the overall scheme but the courts don't always buy it. Something like that.
2. Courts have long been able to set different standards for things that are at times largely in the eye of the beholder (preonderance of the evidence vs. beyond a reasonable doubt vs. clear and convincing evidence as one example).
Gotta go, good discussion RC and John. I'll end by noting that I think we are all in agreement that Obamacare sucks. I've written my Congresscritters urging them to get rid of it asap as I see it as a political, not constitutional wrong. I think it is constitutional but I'm not going to cry any tears if the courts kill it either.
Believe it or not, these "frank exchanges of views" are very helpful as I prepare to defend the Constitutionality of ObamaCare in a few weeks.
What? O_O
Not activity. Economic activity connected to a commercial transaction.
If a person makes the choice not to purchase insurance, then no commercial transaction has taken place.
"" If so, could you identify an economic activity that Congress may not regulate?""
A product grown in a state for the use of state residence only.
Oooops, well that was once an economic activity that would have been outside the reach of the Commerce Clause. After Reich, what's left?
So how does that square with laws against possession?
What about activity that is not directly (or at least predominantly) interstate?
I'm pretty sure both medical care and insurance markets are predominantly intra-state, unlike, say, wheat.
What the hell is "inactivity that is not economic".
If you are defining not doing some economic activity as "economic inactivity", then EVERYTHING is "economic inactivity" since at any instant, there are an infinite number of possible economic activities that you are not engaging in.
I really hope Graham pursues this.
They should just drop the pretense and argue that. They're not fooling anyone. Their supporters would applaud them for it.
"Congress is not regulating the failure to buy something, but the failure to secure financing," Mr. Katyal said.
Double plus good Newspeak.
I'd like someone to explain to me exactly why everyone is deserving of health insurance/healthcare whether wanted or not.
Being healthy is not a matter of life choices and paying for medical care, it is a basic right. Just like everyone has a basic right to food, clothing, an education and a roof over their head, everyone has a right to be healthy. That means everyone has a basic right to the goods and services provided by the medical industry. The time and property of those in the medical industry belong to anyone in need.
It is that way because your betters in government declared it to be so. They've got more guns than you and that makes them right.
You've got two choices: join the winners or be a loser.
Long mother-fucking live the Minutemen.
I believe they would be considered domestic terrorists these days.
What we need is every gun owner in this country to become a domestic terrorist -- that's an (at least) 80,000,000-man army.
If you as an employer have the power to regulate what your employees do with their time at work you have the power to tell them not only what they may not do and how they must do the things they do, but the power to order them to do things as well.
What in the fuck does this have to do with anything?
An employer-employee relationship is voluntary, despite what your AFL-CIO talking points bulletin might suggest.
exactly - I can walk out of my job _right_ _now_ if I so desire.
A mandate does not allow this - essentially removing my freedom to purchase or not.
Moving to Cambodia is looking better n' better these days.
I'd choose Costa Rica
http://www.google.com/search?q.....78&bih=565
over cambodia.
http://www.google.com/search?q.....78&bih=565
point taken!
It's a holiday in Cambodia
where you'll do what your told!
It's a holiday in Cambodia
where slums got so much soul!
Pol... Pot ... Pol ... Pot...
Pol Pot!
All this time, effort, and money just so the nation's "First Black President" doesn't end up with egg on his face.
Jeeeeesus....
Ahem... SECOND Black President
Congress has the authority to remove antagonistic impediments to trade between the states, and the dealings of state governments with each other in interstate dealings. Congress has absolutely no other power concerning either interstate or intrastate commerce.
"'Where, ultimately, is the limit on Congress's power?' the judge asked."
It depends what the meaning of the word is is.
I kind of chuckle at this issue. I think the insanity of the current circumstance is hilarious. As much as, I dislike most of the PPACA; they could have avoided this whole circumstance by just properly calling it a tax (but that would have been too unpopular). Taxing and spending clause...done deal.
Should have called it a "medical responsibility tax" and had done. I'm a health economist so unless you repeal EMTALA and bar people from hospitals to let them die in the streets, you really need to do something like this. Get people paying in before they need medical care (which they won't otherwise be able to afford when they need it).
I would of course in a perfect world have started from a much better place policy wise, but alas you can't play hindsight 20/20.
Healthcare is govt. failure...not a market failure.
Two fails don't make a win.
Get people paying in before they need medical care (which they won't otherwise be able to afford when they need it).
Well the thing is, a lot of people can't afford* to pay in beforehand also. That's why they had to set up this huge subsidies regime to get other people to pay in beforehand.
*Afford in the sense that they'd rather spend the money on something else, not that they would starve.
People already are "paying in" through FICA taxes for Medicare and through income taxes for Medicaid.
The problems are thus:
[1] a government policy of spare-no-expense for longevity medicine for Medicare, Medicaid and unionized government workers
[2] deductibility by insurers as a loss for claims paid
[3] collusion of AMA, states bureaucrats and Big Med School to collude and restrict competition through licensure
[4] deductibility of premiums paid for employees, which favors large-scale firms with strong cash flows
[5] collusion of Big Pharma, FDA and patent office to stifle competition as the extraordinarily lengthy drug approval process favors large-scale firms with strong cash flows
---
ObamaCare is about enhancing the financial position of medical insurers by increasing the sum of premiums collected (the mandate) by collecting those premiums from those least likely in need of medicine (the young, vibrant and healthy) to offset rising payouts for medicine to medical insurance insured as the demand for medicine substantively grows owing to 10,000 Americans a day turning 65 in the face of short-run fixed supply of doctors, medicine, medical equipment, hospitals.
When did the FED get so hardcore in support of gay rights?>
It's actually an elementary component of constitutional law -- that the power to "regulate" is to remove antagonistic impediments between the various governments of the states and their dealings with each other, and nothing else, whether intrastate or interstate.
But dick-up-my-ass liberals and faux-republicans haven't been listening for a hundred years, so why should they start now?
The Administration is just saying that yes, Congress can force everyone to buy broccoli, but it's a two-step process. First, Congress has to pass a law that requires supermarkets to give away broccoli to anyone who can't afford to pay. When that causes broccoli supply to drop, it can then justify passing a broccoli mandate because the decision of some people who can afford it to forgo buying broccoli hurts the supermarkets who have to give away all this free broccoli.
Not free broccoli, government subsidized broccoli.
You know, the Founding generation would have been in full-blown rebellion if a miniscule fraction of the violations of constitution and liberty we suffer under now had been committed. Why are we such an immoral and complacent people?
Cuz we're much less likely to die in our youth for other reasons, and thus would prefer not to incur what is a proportionally much higher risk?
Founding generation?
The rebel rousing that started in the late 18th century wasn't shared by much of that generation.
Flip flop. Flip flop. You really wonder what the Supreme Court is going to say about this next year.
You really wonder what the Supreme Court is going to say about this next year.
We should start a pool. I think I'll take ObamaCare wins 6 - 3.
And yes, it will be nine justices on the case because Elena Kagan has the morals and ethics of a honey badger.
I thinks it is likely that even if she is not ethically challenged the Obama adminstration will persuade her in the Chicago Way that recusing herself in this case will not be in her long term interests,
I listened to the recording of the arguments over at volokh, and the plaintiff's lawyer gave an excellent response.
He pointed out that you could park illegally and just pay the parking tickets if it was the most economical choice, but that nobody considers the parking laws voluntary despite this. The parking laws are statutory obligations, not just pricing for parking spaces.
If people were flouting the parking laws and paying the tickets instead the government would be obliged to raise the fines.
Likewise, if people in large numbers flouted the insurance mandate and paid the penalty instead, the penalty would have to be raised to the point that it would not be flouted. Or else the insurance industry would go into a death spiral as the government repeatedly asserts.
if people in large numbers flouted the insurance mandate and paid the penalty instead
This would be juicy.
I know, we'll finally get single payer!
Medicare does not need to be cut. Fraud, waste. abuse, and mismanagement need to be eradicated. Politicians, Dr. Strangelove physicians, corporations, and special interests are "bending the cost curve," but breaking the patients and the doctor-patient relationship.
Original, documented investigations are posted on http://www.hmohardball.com
Robert Finney PhD