Ron Paul is in Fashion This Season
So says Yahoo! News. While I have no idea why the word "fashionable" appears in quotation marks in the headline, I like it.
They rightly point out the potential electoral value of his Tea Party small government bona fides (though he's prone to upbraid Tea Party activists for not getting that a humble foreign policy is a necessary part of constitutional and affordable government), he was against the Iraq War before being against the Iraq war was cool, and he's the only candidate clearly serious about shrinking government spending and action in an era when that's the only thing left to do.
The Week (a magazine that I love yet which managed a couple of months back to run a half-page article on what CPAC meant to the GOP presidential field without once mentioning the name of the man who won the straw poll there for the second year running, Ron Paul) wonders why he's running again. They note his desire for a national platform for ideas he's one of the few pushing, desire to perhaps shift the GOP's center of gravity on spending, money, and foreign policy and grant that indeed, "he could actually win":
Drew Ivers, a member of the state central committee of Iowa's Republican Party and a Paul supporter, as quoted by The New York Times. But 2012 could be different. Paul is "in the epicenter of the three or four or five the most critical and controversial issues in our nation today," including government spending, the war, and the financial crisis. "That's how snowballs develop, you know. They start small, and they get bigger as they roll downhill."
Counterpunch points out to progressives who will doubtless ignore them that Ron Paul should be preferable to Obama, for many reasons:
[Ron Paul] has never authorized a drone strike in Pakistan. He has never authorized the killing of dozens of women and children in Yemen. He hasn't protected torturers from prosecution and he hasn't overseen the torturous treatment of a 23-year-old young man for the "crime" of revealing the government's criminal behavior.
Can the same be said for Barack Obama?
Yet, ask a good movement liberal or progressive about the two and you'll quickly be informed that yeah, Ron Paul's good on the war stuff -- yawn -- but otherwise he's a no-good right-wing reactionary of the worst order, a guy who'd kick your Aunt Beth off Medicare and force her to turn tricks for blood-pressure meds. By contrast, Obama, war crimes and all, provokes no such visceral distaste. He's more cosmopolitan, after all; less Texas-y. He's a Democrat. And gosh, even if he's made a few mistakes, he means well.
Sure he's a murderer, in other words, but at least he's not a Republican!
Put another, even less charitable way: Democratic partisans – liberals – are willing to trade the lives of a couple thousand poor Pakistani tribesman in exchange for a few liberal catnip-filled speeches and NPR tote bags for the underprivileged. The number of party-line progressives who would vote for Ron Paul over Barack Obama wouldn't be enough to fill Conference Room B at the local Sheraton, with even harshest left-leaning critics of the president,like Rolling Stone's Matt Taibbi, saying they'd prefer the mass-murdering sociopath to that kooky Constitution fetishist.
Jon Avlon at Daily Beast, for reasons I find unconvincing, thinks Gary Johnson is a more likely libertarian-leaning victor in the GOP presidential primaries.
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Hopefully this post will make Max finally decide to move out of his mom and get a life.
would never let her little pet yorkshire move out.
Then Edward can finally live out Life Goes On as Corky.
Was that an awesome typo or intentional?
Intentional. Got it from someone the other day.
And remind the rest of us to donate to the Ron Paul debate day money bomb on May 5th. Debateday.com
Or actually, here:
Debateday.com
How can Barack Obama be "less Texas-y" than Ron Paul? Ron Paul was born in a hospital in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. He grew up across the Monongahela River from Pittsburgh in Green Tree.
I'll tell you what is in fashion this week - THE ROYAL WEDDING (tm). That's right the WHOLE world watched. The whole world bitches!!!!!!!!!
As all faithful liberals know, a subsidized cheap ride is better than a honest good ride.
So I elect (I'm so fucking democratic and egalitarian my body's cells hold votes...my brain is just a regulatory commission) to continue riding my Mom.
Edward! I was just thinking about you! What a coincidence that you dropped by! Wow!
Is this a spoof?
Gosh, I'm sure once Dr. Paul wins the nomination, the media will continue to examine the good doctor's ideology and past record with all the due diligence they afforded Sarah Palin and Dan Quayle!
Good Gaia on AGW Fire, don't be so naive! The press treats any Republican with no chance of winning an election, why, as if that R candidate was actually a human being.
Anyway, don't believe me. Just ask Tom McClintock. Or Star Parker. Or Walter Moore.
Ugh, Yahoo news? The perplexing punctuation, the bad formatting (close yer html tags, shmucks), ending the piece with a rhetorical question the way I would in my 4th grade essays ("Will the noble Yanomami preserve their unique way of life? Only time will tell.")? Shit was nigh unreadable.
Yeah, but at least the paragraphs weren't single sentences. That's an A+ in modern journalism.
It could have been said when Obama was still in Congress, as Paul is.
Paul has never had the opportunity to do those things.
Yet when given the opportunity, Obama did those things.
Yes, but it was 100% obvious that Obama would do those things once he was elected. To me, at least, since I loudly predicted it. He's establishment through and through.
Obama never once took a stand against his own party, and often he refused to take a stand at all.
I resent that! I voted present many times. If that's not taking a stand, I don't know what is.
Are you suggesting he would?
Because during the brief time Obama spent in Congress, it was already obvious that he was an unprincipled greasy pole climber, willing to say anything to get elected, and then break his word (just look at his vote on telecom immunity). After all, you don't succeed in the Daley political machine by being principled.
Whereas Ron Paul has been taking consistent, usually lonely stands against foreign interventionism, in the face of mockery and abuse from his own Party's base, for longer than I've been alive.
Your comparison of the two frankly seems asinine.
No, I don't think Ron Paul would do these things. My beef is with the argument, not the conclusion.
Fair enough.
The argument is valid. Sure, Paul hasnt had the opportunity (although he has had the opportunity to support those efforts with his votes in congress - which he hasnt done), but that doesnt make the statements any less true.
Obama has proven he will do those things.
Paul hasnt.
Now sure, random congressman X also hasnt, but we have reasons to think Paul might not do them given the chance, while X would.
So what is the problem with the argument again?
The Yahoo! News article is from their "Contributor Network", where the writing quality varies from laughably bad to better than CNN. There were four or five articles on Ron Paul today, with widely varying opinions.
wow..insightful thoughts from the jackassess at counterpunch...maybe this election will be different
No, but some progressives are waking up. Maybe it shouldn't be surprising, but those on the far left seem more willing to actually take notice that Obummer is just another crappy politician. Especially on subjects like the wars, the drug war, transparency, executive imperialism, etc.
The "centrists" are too busy applauding his bombing campaigns, and laughing at the kids who don't think someone should be sent to prison for smoking a nearly harmless substance. Remember - they're the adults.
Yesterday I noted a Paul article by a leftist; here's a just-posted one from a neocon.
Ron Paul Would Open America's Doors to Sharia
SHAREEEAA??!?! OHE NOE!!!!!!
"Ron Paul Would Open America's Doors to Sharia"
Seriously?
I love how neocons simultaneously believe in American Exceptionalism and cultural superiority but at the same time they talk like we're culturally on the ropes and just a few Mexicans from becoming a vassal state of Mexico or a few Muslims away from a modern American Caliphate.
The guy doesn't particularly seem like a neocon, FWIW.
The sharia law concerns tend to be more on the socon side.
Worried there won't be any gays left for them to kill, I guess. You snooze, you lose.
Kind of sad that the self-appointed defender of Western civilization from Sharia considers a dog or male cat superior to his wife and daughters.
That's not the only sad thing about him. His face looks like it is made of lumpy mashed potatoes.
Wow. That's all kinds of stupid. WTF would be the attraction to any non-Muslim to agitate for Sharia law? (Other than the hard-core drug warriors).
Thanks for the article yesterday, it was a good one.
haha "extended exposure to Ron Paul's son"= Rachel Maddow and moveon.org don't like him.
not that I ever thought Taibbi should do anything other than go forth and fuck himself...
His takedown of Tom Friedman was pretty good, even if it was an easy target.
It's funny, but Sarah Palin's "death panel" comment re: Obamacare has done more to foster Libertarianism in the U.S. that RP's 427 years in Congress.
When the press covers any Republican and doesn't mention "abortion" once per every seven words, you know that candidate is a turkey.
If RP had any chance of beating anyone at the presidential level, his anti-abortion views (aka he's a closet religious fascist!) would be front and center.
I don't see the usual journolists going after this Gary Johnson fella, either.
Anyway, Americans want nothing more than a president who thinks the military is icky and that nothing beyond our borders has any effect on us. Nope, not at all.
Hey, anyone remember that John Lott book where he argued that cities with loose gun laws tend to reduce crime in all surrounding cities?
Man, you mean like actions sometimes have consequences that spread far and wide?
Well, thank Michelle Obama's awesome arms that the larger world doesn't operate under that principle.
Ah yes, the "keep your government hands off my Medicare!" brand of libertarianism.
Perpetual war for perpetual peace! Awesome! Are we fighting Eastarabia or Ocea-rabia this week?
We're fighting AQ, like it or not. The "guns and fighting are bad" side of libertarianism does not deserve power.
Yeah! For freedom! There's some Obama semen on your lip, Cyto.
Eat your lead paint chips dear. You're going to be an imbecilic dumbass if it's the last thing I do!
Oh, fuck off, troll. The "wurrr fightin' fer freedumb" meme tiresome.
We don't want power. We just want to keep bloodthirsty chickenhawk scum like you from power.
The "guns and fighting are bad" side
My god you're such a moron. You're probably about 20 years old, right? You are a perfect example of the stupidity of youth.
I didn't disagree with the invasion of Afghanistan. Iraq was and is another matter. Libya is another matter.
We need to stop the Minority Report bullshit, and go back to the idea of avoiding "foreign entanglements."
Invasion of Afghanistan? Okay. Occupation and billions of dollars reconstruction? No.
Right. Since I've made a few arguments against the US being the world police elsewhere in the thread, I thought that would be understood.
I was against the invasion of Afghanistan. It was pretty obvious that not much good could come from that.
We're fighting AQ, like it or not.
Prove it.
... Hobbit
Well here we are.
And after we kill just a few more ragheads you'll all come back to life, right?
Re: Holy Cow,
A "closet religious fascist"?
Even if he is (for the sake of argument), I couldn't care less unless he means to try and enforce said facism via legislation.
who thinks the military is icky
He served with honor. I dont think he thinks its icky at all.
Well, Bingo, if you had paid into Medicare your whole life via taxes, yes, you would want it, too, correct?
That's what the argument about Medicare is from the Tea Party POV. Not that Medicare is good and just and efficient and Constitutional. It's none of those things.
For instance, I want my SS money. I disagree profoundly with the program, but a great amount of my wealth has been stolen from me. And I want it back.
But anyway, just be careful towards the very end of that True Libertarian circle jerk. Sometimes the purity gets mixed with this sticky white ooze.
Oh right, you "paid into" it. Like there's an account somewhere with your name on it and some balance that you can cash out.
If a thief steals from you and squanders the money elsewhere, how do you get it back?
Are his organs still healthy?
Good, then you have no problems cutting the payouts by 20% so that you only get out what you paid into it, instead of getting out more than what you paid into it (indexed for inflation), like everyone else.
You are an example of the problem, just begging for your welfare. The whole issue with the program is that we promise everybody more out than they pay in.
Better check the SCOTUS ruling on that. It is *not* "your" money. It is a general tax, paid into the general fund, for use as the legislature sees fit. At the moment, they happen to see fit to make payouts, but that can be terminated at any point.
For instance, I want my SS money. I disagree profoundly with the program, but a great amount of my wealth has been stolen from me. And I want it back
The trouble is, you can't get it "back" from the perps who stole it from you. You can only hope that they'll steal some more from somebody younger and give you some of it.
-jcr
It's a little hard to see how Ron Paul fits into the Republican party. He is justifiably admired by many--mostly not Republicans--for his principled opposition for military interventions. He's no isolationist; he advocates engagement with "enemies" just not giving them money to buy weapons. His positions of some social issues and his mildly anti-immigrant stand make him less than anathema to the right wing, but not enough to give him a realistic shot at the nomination. Fahionable? Maybe. Nominatable? Not a chance.
Jon Avlon at Daily Beast, for reasons I find unconvincing, thinks Gary Johnson is a more likely libertarian-leaning victor in the GOP presidential primaries.
They got the same exact chance: zero.
But both of them help bring libertarian ideas into the mainstream. That's something.
Yeah, Bingo, it's called taxes. Sheesh. It's in a lockbox, so sayeth oracle Gore.
Neither Paul nor Johnson bring Libertarian ideas into the mainstream, because the mainstream treats them like museum oddities, not be touched or even looked at directly. Maybe just a glance every so often.
Your taxes didn't pay nearly enough for all the benefits that you were promised.
If we cut the program so that people only got back what they paid in, there wouldn't be a problem.
Minus the administrative costs.
That's simply not true of the mainstream media, which treats\ both Paul and Johnson with respect and takes them seriously. It's only the mainstream polirical parties that have disdain for them. Ron Paul's ability to raise funds and attract young voters might make them think again. That said, I don't think either has a shot at the nomination.
mainstream *media* I meant to say.
Wow, Otto, that's what I said. Perpetual war! You got me. You found me out. Perpetual war! Yay!
What do you do with the strawman during rainy season?
Okay, big guy - you tell me. When will it end? We're still in Korea, after almost 60 years. We're still in Europe, after 65 years. (And what exactly is the threat there?) We spend 6 times more on defense than the next nation.
We don't need to be the world's cop. Furthermore, we can't afford it. It's time to start telling our allies to defend themselves.
This isn't about being world cop. Many non-noninterventionists like myself don't even want to be in Europe or Korea but we sure as hell don't want to allow AQ to turn Afghanistan back into their HQ or allow Iran to go nuclear.
"Allow"? And what gives the United States government sovereignty over another nation?
1) America is (basically) a free nation and Afghanistan wasn't. Free nations have the unlimited right to invade, occupy, annex, or otherwise ppt regime change so long as the nation is freer afterward.
2) They attacked us.
Nations do not have rights; individuals do. Nations have powers. There is nothing legitimate concerning the power to coerce another nation. Unless that nation directly attacks you (which it didn't, a subset of their population did), there is no such power granting you to destroy the property and lives of innocent human beings.
It is the duty of a government to defend the rights of its citizens. It has every right to kill and destroy for that purpose. The defense and respect of the rights of its citizens is where a state draws its legitimacy from.
There is no meaningful difference between a government attacking me and that government allowing an entity it shelters and feeds to attack me. Further, civilians are not necessarily innocent. Many of these people existentially and/or philosophically support AQ and therefore deserve to die.
"Further, civilians are not necessarily innocent. Many of these people existentially and/or philosophically support AQ and therefore deserve to die."
Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you? Do you feel powerless in your own life? Is it lack of love and understanding? Do you feel that other people lack empathy to you?
You are one sick mother fucker, chickenhawk. But most of all, you are a collectivist scumbag.
Re: Cytotoxic,
Look, Cytotoxic! A unicorn!
Over there!
"Further, civilians are not necessarily innocent. Many of these people existentially and/or philosophically support AQ and therefore deserve to die."
You do realize this is pretty much AQ's rationalization for their terrorist attacks targeting civilians (oh, such as 9/11), right?
Wait a second here. Weren't virtually all of the hijackers Saudis??? That make the "they attacked us" argument even more absurd.
Free nations have the unlimited right to invade, occupy, annex, or otherwise ppt regime change so long as the nation is freer afterward
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
By whose metric? God, you're a dense one, you Randroid chickenhawk idiot.
We're killing them for their own good! Self-determination!
EPIDOUCHE STRIKES AGAIN.
I accept your non argument as capitulation and surrender. You may kiss my feet and ass.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You are the definition of the Internet Tuff Gai. I love it. It fits so perfectly with your chickenhawk ways. So, when are you joining the Marines, tuff gai?
... WOW. Can you please tell me where you got this from so I can avoid the other dangerous idiots?
Do you realize what a collectivist statement this is?
I don't doubt some innocents have died. Not our moral burden. The truly innocent should really be supporting us.
Why? What have we done that would merit their support? Installing corrupt, psuedo-democratic governments by military coercion would sure convince me.
@Cabeza de Vace: we liberated them from a medieval regime and gave them a ridiculous amount of aid. Yeah, some gratitude is in order.
So the dead should be grateful that it was shrapnel from American bombs that shredded their bodies?
You really are a depraved individual.
I don't doubt some innocents have died. Not our moral burden. The truly innocent should really be supporting us.
Obvious troll is obvious.
Bingo,
Cytotoxic has been spewing this same line of "argument" for quite some time. It's nice to see some others catching on instead of being left to counter him alone.
Oh wait, you guys were busy beating your chests about drawing Mohammed, I forgot.
What's this "you guys" stuff? I don't remember any beating anything over Mohammed drawings!
Hey Tulpa, I remember having this argument with you and I remember you running out of counterarguments ie losing.
You're confusing political discussion with "Last Man Standing". Some of us have lives to live off the Net, you know.
You lost the moment you said the US has the right to kill as many innocents as it deems necessary for some vaguely defined freedom-increase.
So it's AQ cells that you're killing? (Sorry, that was wrong.)
You may agree that we shouldn't be the world's cop, but we are. You're certainly right that it would not be good for Afghanistan to become an AQ training ground again, but changing our foreign policy would go a long way to stopping the recruitment of new terrorists. Another way to hurt the terrorists would be to end the drug war - and stop fueling the endemic corruption, as well as taking a prime source of funding from them.
When I see that roughly a third of our predator drone attacks kill civilians, I understand why people want to destroy our nation. I would like the indiscriminate killing to stop because the United States government is the greatest encourager of terrorism.
changing our foreign policy would go a long way to stopping the recruitment of new terrorists.
Nope. They've made it abundandtly clear whether attacking Danish embassies for cartoons, Copts for being Copts, heretical sects of Islam, or ignoring Frances multi-decade neocolonialism, it's not us it's them.
Yes, we should immediately cease the WOD. I can't believe that the stupidity of the WOD won over the urgency to defeat AQ/Taliban. We are literally handing them money.
You say "non-noninterventionists like myself", but nothing you ever say supports this. So why don't you stop pissing down our backs and telling us it's raining.
I oppose the Libyan adventure, Vietnam, Korea, anything in the Balkans, Gulf War I, Somalia I, etc. But go ahead just keep shadowboxing your imaginary opponents.
So you oppose all interventions except the ones you like?
Then you're not a non-interventionist, imbecile. But you are amazingly dense.
Reading comprehension fail: I said I was a non-noninterventionist.
That wasn't a typo?!? What the fuck does that even mean? Come on, big guy; explain for us.
It's my way of saying that I oppose America as GloboCop but also oppose non-interventionism.
What the fuck does "opposing non-interventionism" even mean? Your brain works differently from the rest of ours, doesn't it.
It means being against the puritanical worship of an outdated FP mindset. Not that hard to comprehend.
Hmm, sounds like it means "I get to be a total interventionist but try and pretend that I'm not".
non-noninterventionist = interventionist
"-for his principled opposition for military interventions."
Ah, principled! Principled! Obama is a principled "big government knows best" guy. So what? Principles don't mean jack if you don't share the same ideas.
And how do you know RP's principles? Have they ever been tested? It's easy to yay and nay all day in the Senate when you bear no real responsibility.
Yeah...He's a congressman, not a senator. And this moronic argument could be applied to anyone who hasn't already been president, and everyone who has already been president has sucked at it.
though he's prone to upbraid Tea Party activists for not getting that a humble foreign policy is a necessary part of constitutional and affordable government
Waging a war to defend the country is a just and constitutional use of the federal government. The difference between Ron Paul and the Tea Partiers is their perception of what we need to do to keep America safe. It's a difference of opinion on the facts at hand, not a philosophical difference.
Articles like this make me weary of RP and make Doherty look like a near lunatic. This article reads like fucking satire.
For starts, I'd like to know 1) where the 1/3 civilian casualties stat comes from and 2) why I should give a shit. America didn't start this fight the Islamists did so that's blood on their hands. It is NOT the responsibility of the US government to protect foreign civilians from the ravages of wars the people they are sheltering have started.
Oh and Doherty, you're a raging dishonest asshole for continuing to perpetuate the lie that the 07/06/10 Apache incident was a 'war crime'. That's been debunked over and over again on this site and elsewhere on the internet.
And comments like this make you look like a violent psychopath.
Here's the stat
Get your Woodrow Wilson hard-on...on.
A newstory with a link to a "page not found" of an institute I've never heard of.
LMGTFY
Here's what I've written on the Apache incident:
http://reason.com/blog/2010/04.....-iraqi-rul
http://reason.com/blog/2010/06.....licopter-s
Dishonest assholes the world over can search for the phrase "war crime" in it. Figuring out what possessed cyto to bring this up in this thread about two things written nearly a year ago is an exercise for the reader
While I admit you haven't called a war crime per se, you are still perpetuating some notion that those pilots did anything wrong (other than have to jump through a million hoops to be able to pull the trigger like every soldier has too).
So you admit that you were blatantly misrepresenting what he said?
When you put something in quotes, "dishonest asshole", you better make sure the person you're talking about actually wrote those words.
You're such a bloodthirsty little chickenhawk. When are you joining the Marines, tough guy?
When are ever going to make a real argument EpiDouche?
You need therapy. Seriously, that is some scary shit you believe in.
It's a rational view of war as a means of defending citizens rights. Your approach to war holds that American lives can and should be sacrificed for the lives of civilians of enemy countries.
You do understand that you're a complete and utter collectivist, right? Have you wrapped your creepy little mind around that fact?
No, but anarchists like you certainly are collectivists.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The bloodthirsty mongoloid says black is white, and we should believe him?
So we protect property rights by violating property rights through taxation, inflation, and destruction of property? We protect life by destroying life?
"Your approach to war holds that American lives can and should be sacrificed for the lives of civilians of enemy countries."
That's actually what you're saying. You're saying the American government should conduct war in which American lives are sacrificed for the freedom of the civilians in other countries. Dirty little collectivist.
Ummm...no. I'm not interested in the freedoms of Afghanis, although that would be a nice bonus. I just want to destroy AQ, Taliban, and any other threats to the life and liberty of the American people in Afghanistan. You want to either conduct some kind of fuzzy-safe-for-the-kids war or allow AQ to use Afstan as a base again.
I have bad news for you: the Taliban's basis is Pakistan.
And I don't have a simple solution for that. Predator strikes may just be the only game in town, along with opium legalization. We should have some real deep talks with India though. What's Indian for "Anschluss"?
Right after you make a statement that is something other than completely retarded bloodthirsty collectivist bullshit and there's actually something to respond to.
Beat your chest some more, tuff gai! Claim victory! You're like a right wing joe. It's so cute.
I don't think Doherty ever called it a war crime. While it's true that the Islamists attacked us, we responded by attaking a country that had nothing to do with the Islamists. Was Ron Paul the only Republican who offered aprincipled critique of Bush's war of choice? I think so.
We had been at war with Iraq since 1992.
John Thacker: Go F*** yourself, asshole. Where did I say I wanted more than I paid into SS?
Dear True Libertarians: Which previous Americans wars would you have supported and why?
War is the act of a collectivist organization against another collectivist organization that indiscriminately destroys individual lives and property. It is the most un-libertarian stance in the world to support such a thing, and it should be avoided at all possible.
A proper nation running a proper war is not indiscriminate. It only kills and destroys as is necessary to protect the rights of its citizens while shedding as little blood and treasure as possible.
It only kills and destroys as necessary?!? Like, Dresden? Or Hiroshima?
You are one twisted little shit, I'll give you that. Can you give us a way to identify you on the news when they finally find the bodies in your house? Or are you only up to torturing squirrels at this point?
Dresden and Hiroshima are excellent examples. They saved many American lives and helped secured victory.
You have to be a spoof. Because if you're not, we are going to be seeing you on the news at some point when they find the bodies in your crawlspace.
Hey buddy, little hint here: Those things that speak a different language and live in a faraway place are actually people too. They have lives and thoughts and feelings, and emotions. It turns out that a life lost is a life lost no matter which arbitrary geographic boundary it is lost in.
Oh well that's nice. We're all people-here that everybody! We're all people! Wow Bingo you've finally brought world peace.
Some people derive their philosophies and ideas from serious thought, others derive them from Disney movies.
I'm trying to address your false premise that the lives of foreigners are somehow less valuable than Americans. However, I can see why Tulpa stopped trying to give counter-arguments as there is no use arguing with someone who has no principles to begin with.
KILL THE TOWEL HEADS!!
THEY HATEZ US FOR OUR FREEDOM!!1!
Dresden and Hiroshima are excellent examples. They saved many American lives and helped secured victory.
Dresden was a disgusting, pointless exercise of revenge that the Brits got us into.
Hiroshima on the other hand probably saved Japanese lives too, considering the likely death toll of an invasion of Japan. Of course, WW2 represented very different circumstances from what we have now, since our enemies attacked us first, there were identifiable military targets to take out, and there was an identifiable path to neutralize the threat posed by Japan. The last two criteria certainly don't apply in the WoT.
Of course they don't apply in the War on Terror. Waging a war on a tactic is stupid. However, once we recognize that Totalitarian Islam is at war with the West, targets become easy to see. State-sponsors of terrorism for instance. Iran. Perhaps Saudi Arabia.
These arguments all seem a bit silly to me. I don't really have a great problem with Cyto's stance, it seems that (s)he bases the argument in patriotism and is certainly not a fringe stance. It is not my stance however. I believe that there are consequences to occupying other countries and killing their civilians. We are not responsible to rebuild Afganistan nor should we have even went after the Taliban. The people in those middle eastern countries do not have the power to threaten us, you are more likely to win the lottery than be a victim of terrorism. Our government is run by corporations. And as far as Japan, we declared war on them with first with shipping embargos and sanctions. You can't use the navy to cut off virtually all shipped supplies to an island country and give their enemies weapons and aid, and still call yourself nuetral. There is/was no reason for us to be involved in any of those wars.
Do you live in a fantasy land? In the real world, war results in indiscriminate killing and destruction of property and wealth. No matter how "properly" it's run, people die and shit gets blown up. It has to be paid for, so taxes and debt is accumulated on the civilians to pay for it.
How is any of this a positive?
It isn't; it's horrible. That is why a war must be prosecuted with maximum brutal force to achieve lasting peace as quickly as possible. See WW2, the Civil War, defeat of Carthage (2nd Carthaginian war).
the Powell doctrine?
Yes, the 2nd Punic War led to lasting peace...until the 3rd Punic War. I guess that resulted in the peace of the grave for, uh, all of the Carthaginians?
You really are a demented little goon.
Nuke the Whales!
Carthage was subdued and no longer antagonistic. It was unnecessary Roman chauvinism that led to the 3rd Punic war and the subsequent annihilation of Carthage. If not for that, there would have been peace.
Carthage was freer after the 3rd Punic War than it was before, so I don't get why you're criticizing Rome.
Hmmm...I thought Carthage was annihilation after number 3? In any event it was unnecessary after number 2 brought about peace.
I get the feeling this nutter hasn't quite grasped the concept of threaded comments...
Sometimes it's a bit hard to figure out what the indentation will ultimately be on this these threads....
American Revolution.
Civil War on a far reduced scale, with the goal of peace between USA and CSA (ignoring the whole slavery thing, which should have been resolved in 1787).
Spanish-American War looked almost justifiable at the time.
Maybe WWI.
WWII in the Pacific.
Wow...I advocate allowing American soldiers full freedom to defend the rights of US citizens, and I'm called a psychopath by people who would have them and US citizens treated as sacrificial lambs to be slaughtered for Altruism. What a fucked up world.
Please watch:
http://www.aynrand.org/site/Pa.....alityofwar
What kind of topsy-turvy world is this, where heroes are cast as villains, brave men as cowards?
+1
"Allowing soldiers full freedom"
The Party-Member is strong in this one. Is it Eastasia or Eurasia this time?
No, it's AQ dipshit. Quoting a passage from 1984 does not automatically make you a deep thinker.
kooky Constitution fetishist
Yeah, the Constitition, that rag written by a bunch of dead white men with all that stupid stuff about habeas corpus and limits on executive power. Who needs it?
Of course, here's the wierdest thing ...
In today's politics only someone who is willing to be perceived as kooky, is going to be someone who will actually stand by his principles.
Would be funny if progressive actually got that Ron Paul is far less likely to betray them on foreign policy than Obama ever has been.
I mean, you basically have to be some kind of kooky constitution fetishist to actually be SERIOUS about closing Guantanamo.
Hazel
The other day a poster put up a lot of comments from Paul where he objected to things like Lawrence v. Texas and federal flag burning cases on the grounds that they violated state rights to prohibit these things. If Paul is just a State's Righter rather than a libertarian I'm afraid I'd have a very hard time supporting him.
How anybody who loves liberty over simple localism can right the following is beyond me:
" the State of Texas has the right to decide for itself how to regulate social matters like sex, using its own local standards."
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul120.html
That's actually infuriating. Between the fishy shuffling of campaign funds and the worship of state's rights, my view of him is dimming. Worse, given his other SoCon positions, I think he's really just using the 'Rights' of the State of Texas to cover for something he might even sympathize with.
Then you'd probably be more interested in Johnson, who is more pragmatic.
For my part, what bothers me is not that Paul has principles, but that he refuses to see that the tenth amendment should invalidate sodomy laws, along with any other laws that punish people for non-coercive behavior. If anything, this seems more like a political renunciation of principles. He's willing to pretend that things like "sodomy" are legitimate areas for legal sanction, provided those laws are written at a more local level. That this position is aligned with many in his district is just a happy coincidence.
Otto, there are always some things about people you may not like.
The fact is, Ron Paul is no savior. But are his principles a better way for you to live and this country to exist then all the other candidates.
Ron Paul isn't going to save you, he isn't going to hand you money...All he can give you is the freedom to live your own life and to be more active in this democracy.
Yes, every person may have a point we all disagree with...but are you voting for yourself - or for sodomy laws. are you voting for your liberties and freedoms - or sodomy laws.
It's like how the right is obsessed with abortion...vote for policies which will personally effect you. Don't fall for the morality trap of politicians - they don't have any morality...politicians are the foulest creatures in our society, they have no principles and have sold out more than a saigon hooker.
Ron Paul is the closest thing to an honest politician we have - don't let one scar stop you from realizing that
I think these links are relevant. I'm not sure that advocating for certain aspects of war necessarily makes one a serial killer or a racist. At all. These center around a WWII vet and war writer (UPenn professor, National Book Award winner) who claims he is "done with murder and coercion." I'm not sure the scorn Cytotoxic has gotten here has been deserved. The first is an interview. The second is a neat dismantling of anti-force arguments from a humanist perspective.
http://www.neh.gov/news/humani.....ssell.html
Thank God For The Atom Bomb
Afghanistan/Iraq/Libya/Pakistan/Syria/bogeyman of the week is not WW2. Keep trying. Cyto deserves every bit of scorn he gets for his warped belief that a vaguely-defined, and completely unforeseeable, increase in freedom is worth killing as many non-US-citizens as we wish.
I will give you credit for having a less abrasive style than Cytotoxic, but ultimately you're advocating for the same crap.
A) Afghanistan, and therefore, the Taliban and AQ, is a bogeyman? Tulpa, your bogeyman is the certitude real threats don't exist.
B) No, I'm not advocating anything other than to step back and realize how hard the questions are when someone is designing your death and actively preparing for it or acting upon it. Which was, for the most part, the central point of the links. What to do -- and how to look at the use of force -- when war is inevitable, and you're not the aggressor. You're once again ascribing words and positions to me. It's getting annoying. Read more carefully.
C) Did you read the thread and the links, or did you just pop off? WWII sure was brought up in this thread, and has been in many threads. Specifically, Cytotoxic got likened to a serial killer and got read the Free To Be You And Me Riot Act for daring to make the point that the bombing campaigns against the two aggressor nations saved American lives, and were therefore desirable actions.
And people here may not like it, but it's been a standard argument, not one indicative of sociopathology or extreme callousness. See: Churchill, Kennedy, Truman, etc...
And that's what the links address, not Syria or Pakistan or Libya or Iran or Iraq. Thank you.
A million thank yous.
You're once again ascribing words and positions to me.
It's not just him. Tulpa and the others see what they want to-caricatures. Everyone who disagrees with them is a neocon and Tulpa doesn't even know what a neocon is.
In fashion or not, Ron Paul has done more to advance the idea of limited government than any other politician of any persuation. For that alone he deserves the deep respect of libertarians.
I love this shit!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
Max? haha
I saw Paul's performance on Stossel. If he can't do any better than that against a fake Obama lofting softballs in front of the friendliest crowd possible, he's got no shot of being elected.
Brian Doherty - what scares you so much about Ron Paul? and why do they let your irrational, mumbling about nothing show up on google news feeds when I want to read some real news about the election.
And if your a "liberal" - I don't see how you can be. Do you remember the Bush Years? all democrats said was - too much spending, the wars, the special interests, the oil companies.
THE ENTIRE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND OBAMA IS DOING THE EXACT SAME THING THE REPUBS DID UNDER BUSH.
Now thats reason. Try to use more of it or stop writing about politics. Stick to celeb news
While he's dead right about foreign policy and economic issues, he's still a 76 year old, pro-choice candidate, with an irrefutable link to racist literature, who doesn't categorically believe in evolution.
Surely we can do better than this.
I meant pro-life candidate, of course.
Ron Paul is a nut and to the extent that you share political beliefs with him, they should be seriously reconsidered based on that fact.
"Ron Paul is a nut"
Qualify this statement, if you please.
gary johnson said he wants to keep guantanamo open: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....r_embedded fucking disgusting. thanks, brian, for being pretty much the only person at the most significant libertarian publication in the US to talk regularly about the most significant libertarian politician in the US, ron paul.
Hello? I can not access your rss feed? Something trouble? Can you fix it?