Today in New York Times Navel-Gazing
From Ginia Bellafante's review of Game of Thrones, an upcoming HBO adaptation of a book by the fantasy writer George R.R. Martin:
The true perversion, though, is the sense you get that all of [the show's sex] has been tossed in as a little something for the ladies, out of a justifiable fear, perhaps, that no woman alive would watch otherwise. While I do not doubt that there are women in the world who read books like Mr. Martin's, I can honestly say that I have never met a single woman who has stood up in indignation at her book club and refused to read the latest from Lorrie Moore unless everyone agreed to "The Hobbit" first. "Game of Thrones" is boy fiction patronizingly turned out to reach the population's other half.
I have no stake in defending either the fiction of George R.R. Martin (which I have not read) or the miniseries it inspired (which probably isn't the sort of thing I would enjoy). But speaking as a former Borders clerk: The idea that women tend to avoid this genre is ludicrous. It may well be true that the evidence of their interest has not penetrated the book clubs frequented by the friends of a New York Times critic. Bellafante might want to consider the possibility that the world is larger than her social circle.
Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Dude, nerd chicks like George R.R. Martin.
Not as much as R.A. Salvatore or Terry Pratchett, but yeah, Martin is cool. I mean, one of the biggest characters in the book is Mongolian Dragon Baby Lady.
My Chinese wife actually got me into the series. The NYT reviewer is talking about of her ass.
Yeah, I have now learned that Martin has a ton of female fans, but none of the ones I know are personally fans, whereas some are big R.A. Salvatore, and I've managed to get a few into Discworld.
That's utterly insane. Even science fiction has a substantial percentage of female readers, but fantasy? Come on.
I like the attempt to pigeonhole some identity politics into something where such issues are largely inapplicable.
I was just going to say that the reason* Sci-Fi and Fantasy are mixed at bookstores was for the geeks to actually interact with women.
But yeah, fantasy has tons of female readers.
*if this isnt the reason, can some one explain it to me?
Well, for a site called Reason, you'd think they'd understand Reason a little better.
That's a Friday Morning, Thank God it's almost the weekend, Bloody Mary on me, boys and gals.
Thanks Barry, I needed that.
Winter is coming, unless you live in the northern hemisphere that is.
*if this isnt the reason, can some one explain it to me?
Personally, I think it's laziness. In libraries I've worked in, they are mixed because they think it's all the same people in the fanbase and there isn't much difference in it anyway. I can't imagine bookstores are that radically different. Look how long it took them to start separating out the drecky "X-Wing Academy" hack novels into their own section.
Of course, if they did separate out the Science Fiction and the Fantasy, what would you do with the Science Fantasy like Pern and Shannara?
Roger Zelazny NOOOOOOOOOOOO
Don't forget the section of the fanbase that insists that it's all "SF" and that "SF" stands for Speculative Fiction. So it's not just laziness, though you shouldn't underestimate that.
I've always been suspicious of the Speculative Fiction moniker. 1) all fiction is speculative. 2) Horror is a subgenre and gets its own section.
All fiction is speculative, exactly. It's just a matter of marketing: using a "Science Fiction" and a "Fiction" sign will generate more sales than using a "Fiction" and a "Myopic Fiction" sign.
I'm a little more confused about the size of the two sections. Granted, it's fun in an anthropological sense to read plots that were obsoleted within a few years of their writing (oh, no, whatever will they do now that the phone line has been cut!), but surely that's a niche market?
All fiction is speculative
For that matter, all fiction is fantasy.
What about the Alien Historical Science Fantasy-- time traveling aliens from the future who go back in time to alter the course of medieval history, but are opposed by the native wizards?
Books with aliens are Fantasy not Science Fiction.
What, you don't believe in the Scifi/Hard-Scifi distinction? You don't think that "A Mote in God's Eye" (for example) isn't Scifi?
isn't is
I can't imagine bookstores are that radically different.
This is just one more reason why all books should be purchased on the internet.
I like the attempt to pigeonhole some identity politics into something where such issues are largely inapplicable.
To me it feels less like identity politics than very careless gender stereotyping. There's tons of feminists who read fantasy. I'm sure Bellafante's passage offended a lot of them.
Perhaps. I was reading it as a bit of an attack on the miniseries (and book) for being too manly.
Either way, she's in error. I am curious about the demographic breakdown for fantasy as a genre. I bet it's not far from 50-50.
To me it feels less like identity politics than very careless gender stereotyping
as opposed to the purposeful stereotyping on Reason H&R every damn day
She's an idiot. I have personally turned women on to Martin's series, and they fucking love it. Because it's fucking good. Anyone who slags his series but hasn't read it instantly signals that they are a total moron.
I can't wait for the miniseries to start.
It does have Sean Bean, which makes it instantly cool.
It does have Sean Bean, which makes it instantly cool.
This.
Did any of you guys see Black Death?
That turned out like, easily 3 to 4.7 times better than I thought it was when I saw the trailer.
didn't you mention it already?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Pimp your blog some more. Please, so I can not go read it. Oh wait, tell me about all the hits you get from Japan! Or Canada! Or Fantasyland!
you can check the live world map on my blog bitch 🙂
We get a lot of pageviews in Austria, which bothers me. I have this vision of the Urkobold being the center of some neo-Nazi movement.
It's like my mom always told me, "You'll unwittingly destroy the world with your silliness."
I get a lot of hits from out-of-the-way islands, headhunters?
But mostly I get hits from meth.
Well, A Feast for Crows was was pretty "meh". But the first three were awesome. Also, I know more females that read fantasy than men, including my girlfriend and her sister.
Same here, and when they aren't into fantasy they tend to like brutal forensics based detective novels.
The artsy fartsy stereo type soaking up English department seal of approval Reynolds Price short stories and Toni Morrison unreadables are few and far between.
Thank Buddha.
Oh, and thanks Sugs. Best Science-Fiction/Detective cross genre work I've read since When Gravity Fails (Good God the sequel to that one was extremely disappointing).
The next one, Broken Angels, is very good as well. The 3rd is only about 7/10. And the rest of his stuff has suffered a very unfortunate decline.
Actually, my sister goes between trashy romance novels and really pretentious, english department shit.
She reads Joyce for fun. And not Dubliners Joyce, which I actually kind of like.
+1 on critic being a mmoron. The books are just plain good. Her view that they have been "chickified" somehow is just ignorant bullshit.
I might get HBO just for this series. But will probably just buy the DVDs.
I'm browsing today in FF 4.0. Everything's all moved around, frightening and confusing me.
Wow, that really does make a LOT of sense dude.
http://www.internet-privacy.pro.tc
Send this link. About 20 years ago a few young women wisened up to the fact that if they hang out around the sci-fi fantasy sausage fest, they get to be queen for a day. It has only spread since then.
http://www.wouldyoukindly.com/women-of-comic-con/
There is the link Women of Comiccon.
Cutesy twerpy little twig women should not attempt to dress up as Bayonetta.
Girl has to have back, gams and the bodice otherwise it is sacrilege.
"Sausage fest" and "only spread since then."
That's brilliant!
I have never met a single woman who has stood up in indignation at her book club and refused to read the latest from Lorrie Moore unless everyone agreed to "The Hobbit" first.
I see words, but I can detect no meaning.
Wanna know what chicks are kinky?
Trekkies. I swear to God.
Can you elaborate?
Green. Think green.
1) Roleplaying- They often own a Starfleet uniform, sometimes cosplay shit too.
2) Bondage shit- Xmas down thread is right
3)Other stuff- I've met a female virgin fetishist(a woman who has a thing for virgin dudes) for example
4. Kirk/Spock fiction... just... don't google that pairing
Female virgin fetishist - this is so awesome. What a great way to never sleep with someone twice.
No kidding. Ladies I've met that own Starfleet uniforms usually own spreader bars too.
Err, "ladies" may not be quite the word you are looking for, Xmas.
It may well be true that the evidence of their interest has not penetrated the book clubs frequented by the friends of a New York Times critic. Bellafante might want to consider the possibility that the world is larger than her social circle.
Is this your first encounter with a NYT critic Jesse? Their whole raison d'etre revolves around reducing the whole world to their social circle.
Obligatory Pauline Kael how did Nixon win quote reference comes to mind.
Yes. And it is also funny that she assumes that everyone who reads is in a fucking book club. Seriously, are Manhattan leftists such collective joiners that they are incapable of reading a book of their own choice alone without the collective telling them to read it?
This Texas leftist manages just fine without some NYC aging hipster stamp of approval. I think the issue is more urban insularity than politics.
And I freakin' love the GRRM series.
It's pretty damn clear that the NYT reviewer hasn't actually read the books, because the sex was "tossed in" the books as well, not just added to the show.
Yeah, the geek women are understandably annoyed at this reviewer.
I wonder what the mini-series will do once it hits book four. Book four was the point where Martin ran out of ideas, had killed off or decided to ignore most of the interesting characters, and just started throwing a slew of characters that you didn't know or care about at you. Maybe HBO will have the sense to gracefully end it?
Yeah. I was pretty excited about the books at first. He would kill anyone at anytime, which gave it a sense of danger that most fantasy lacks.
Then, I started to get annoyed with the fact that it seemed like he was killing off characters because he didn't know what to do with them. No one has their story finished, so it all began to feel a little pointless.
(It reminds me a bit of the Wheel of Time, only Game of Thrones was actually pretty great for a few books while Wheel was only okay for the first few)...
It is interesting she points to sex as the draw for women. I have read the books and Martin's world is a brutal one, very little romance going on. Maybe the miniseries is different.
As an aside, I made the mistake of reading Martin's blog and discovered he is a leftist moron. He posts videos juxtaposing tea partiers with Nazis and such. It is a good reminder that because someone is skilled in one area does not mean that skill carries over to other areas. Avoid hero worship.
Scott, I've read in another review that the upped the age of most of the female characters, so it's not 11 to 13 year old girls being brutally deflowered ...
Everyone is older. Ned and Catelyn are both in their late-40s.
It's also silly because she has stereotypes of SF and Fantasy books. Some have sex, some don't. Martin's books are actually fairly low fantasy; there's very little magic going on, magic appears to have largely died out (but may come back), and the whole thing plays more like a medieval fiction with, yes, a fair amount of sex.
Similarly look at Guy Gabriel Kay's historical fantasy works like The Lions of Al-Rassan (obvious allusion to the Reconquista). Here with Martin we have clear War of the Roses allusions.
As a commentary about the brutal nature of medieval society and politics (and how it's much worse than as commonly portrayed in fantasy that ignores the downsides), it's not all that different from the fictionalized Rome series that she praises.
Sure, there are a ton of characters to keep track of, but I've never heard of a stereotype that women can't keep track of shows with tons of principal characters.
I haven't read it but it sounds a little bit like Pillars of the Earth and World Without End. Those books also show how brutal medieval society was. And women love those books.
The books are actually impossible to describe, since Martin's world is so extensive, so real, and so brutal. It's really like nothing else I've read. He absolutely will not hesitate to kill, maim, or rape even the most major character.
You know how in 99% of books, you know who the main character is? And you know they're going to at least make it to the end? Not so with Martin. I have literally had to turn a page back and reread what just happened (like hitting rewind on the TiVo) because I didn't believe it.
Interesting. I am a big medivalist. I might have to read them.
If you are at all interested in the War of the Roses and the dynamics behind it, you will love this series.
Do not watch the miniseries before reading. I am looking forward to the show, but there is no way it can possibly compare to the books in terms of total immersion and content.
I do like the War of the Roses. I will have to check it out.
I give it two thumbs up as well. And normally I loathe fantasy. What Martin has done is amazing.
This is what is killing my delicate sensibilities. For craps sake...I think there is maybe one character left that is doin "ok" and last I left here it wasnt looking too good.
My casualty list is basically total here.
I did get mega-similarities from ASOIAF when I read Pillars of the Earth. Loved them both.
What is ASOIAF
The series is called A Song of Ice and Fire. And I concur, it's amazing. I've never read another series that had the balls to murder off so many major characters.
Great sub-thread. I haven't read anything like this in a long time and will have to check it out.
There's plenty of sex and strong female characters in the books. Her argument is invalid. Also, my hair is a bird.
Obviously her book club hasn't read them.
I would say that female fantasy readers actually OUTNUMBER male fantasy readers.
And as for her The Hobbit reference, I'm pretty sure that the people over at TheOneRing are at least 65% female. At LEAST.
But to book reviewrs at the New York Times, people who actually read something like fantasy besides the approved politcally correct books are a strange and exotic culture similiar to people who live in Birmingham and eat at Olive Gardens.
Like most people who try to comment on a genre from the outside, she hasn't the beginning of a clue what she is talking about.
Fantasy has a huge female fan-base, especially in the post-Twilight era. Sparkles the Gay Vampire and Jake-Jake the Dog-Faced Boy are taking over.
My wife just blew through a three-book series on werewovles (a romance) on here Nook.
emulating barfman
*barf*
Yeah, I'm guessing she hasn't spent much time perusing Robert Jordan fansites if she thinks fantasy epics are boy books.
Me, I have no clue about this Lorrie Morgan she mentions, and no interest in finding out, because I'm about to reread The Stars My Destination for the first time in 10 years. But her tiny brain might implode trying to process that information.
Bester is great. I read a collection of his short stories not too long ago.
She's too busy sniffing at the genre to read the RJ books. Also tugging her braid, and folding her arms under her breasts, presumably.
While sniffing and smoothing her skirts, no doubt.
I lol'd. I have no love for that series. RJ was the anti-Martin. He couldn't kill anybody.
For what it's worth death has significantly improved Jordan's writing. Since I can't get the last 20 years of my life back, I feel compelled to see the series through to the bitter end, so imagine my surprise and delight at reading 2 books in a row that not only managed to cover more than 48 hours each, but also introduced no new major characters and killed off or otherwise disposed of quite a few extras, all without a single two page description of a dress or tea cup. And, knock wood, two whole books without a single skirt being smoothed; instead, Brandon Sanderson was able to use the 90% of the book traditionally devoted to repetitive filler to, you know, advance the plot.
But did they ever find that fucking bowl?
Yeah, which of course immediately rendered it superfluous, and after 4 books of looking for it I don't think anyone's mentioned it since. I sure as fuck don't remember the point of it.
I saw the most recent one in the book store. And I have no idea if I already read it or not. That's how I stopped reading Terry Brooks.
Man, that series wore me out really quickly. I never liked any of the female characters and by about book 4, I realized I didn't like any of the male characters and I bailed out. (Modesitt is also pretty annoying in this regard).
As for not killing anyone (and generally sucking), I would consider David Eddings to be the king.
Bellafante might want to consider the possibility that the world is larger than her social circle.
I have a button for "literary" events. NYC is a regional market
So, when are they gonna start making a John Norman 'Gor' Miniseries?
Teh wimminz, they love 'Gor'.
Lars Von Trier rewrote it and made it into a chick flick staring Kirsten Dunst:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsbZfBUkjZc
Please speak for yourself, not for the rest of the women in the world. Here's two of us reading this seres:
http://www.bscreview.com/tag/a-game-of-thoughts/
And if you doubt we're chicks, we nerd out with bird out on our podcast about it, too. (Shameless plug: search itunes boomtron podcast if you're interested!)
As a genre reader, I will say that the recent surge in paranormal fiction has brought in a whole new wave of female readers who might still not read the more traditional epic fantasy or sword and sorcery, but there has always been plenty of us who grew up with Tolkien and followed that into this so-called boys club. Swords dragons and magic, hello, what's not to like?!!
There's another podcast for ASOIAF done by three guys and three chicks. A lot of women who hate the traditional Sword of Shannara crap like Martin as well as another great dark fantasy writer, China Mieville.
Speaking of fantasy, has anyone ever read any of the Witcher novels? The game was pretty fun, so I was considering checking it out.
Is there a good translation?
Obligitory:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/10/25//
I just read The Computer Connection for the first time; it was a lot beter than i'd been told by people whose taste I usually trust.
I'm kind of taken aback to find out that Stars isn't avaiable for Kindle, it's one of the classics of the 20th century. Of course Fred Brown's Martians Go Home isn't available for Kindle, either, so I guess there're still a few bugs in the system.
Fucking squirrels, this ^^^ was in response to Pro Libertate above.
The Stars My Destination isn't available for the Kindle? That offends me. And I own a Kindle!
I own a Kindle and I was pretty fucking offended. Especially because I know that plenty of science fiction "classics" by Ursula LeGuin are available for Kindle-- Amazon keeps telling me so, and suggesting I might be interested in buying them.
Well, I'm going to have some words with my Kindle.
I recently read War of the Gods by Poul Anderson and it's fantastic. Danish king in the Viking Era creates an empire. All written with Anderson's wit and easy storytelling.
One of the truly underrated greats. I got on a kick of rereading his works that I read as a kid a few years back, and I was floored with the execution of ideas that he casually throws out there.
Book Clubs are mainly for people who dabble at reading since Oprah has made reading cool for the masses . . . real readers read what they want, when they want, IMHO.
There's tons of feminists who read fantasy. I'm sure Bellafante's passage offended a lot of them.
If they're feminists, they were sitting there being offended when the words happened to go by. Doesn't count.
And she used boy as an adjective, without making it possessive. The puerile pleasure that gives offense-oriented women offsets the previous offense.
B) The feminists you're talking about sound poor and/or fat. So they don't count. This is the Times.
?) But yeah, it's a weird thing to say, if it's meant to mean what it says (but it's not). The main reason I can't get into "fantasy" as a genre, though I like a few books that are called that, is because seems like it's made for women, in the negative sense (like a thing that's non-functionally pink). A soap opera with evil-clone sword fights in place of evil-twin blackmail schemes isn't boy.
You are correct that most fantasy is like that. George R.R. Martin's ASOIAF series is for adult men and women, not people who are still stuck in a world of magic and fairies. Betrayal, rape, maiming and murder are the order of the day in this series.
If they're feminists, they were sitting there being offended when the words happened to go by. Doesn't count.
And she used boy as an adjective, without making it possessive. The puerile pleasure that gives offense-oriented women offsets the previous offense.
Never before in the history of H&R, have I read a commenters comments so eagerly.
As frustratingly obscure and byzantine as they sometimes are, I always find something amazingly profound but subtle. I nominate ? as H&R genius guest commenter of the year.
? is a commenting pimp, and I bow to thee.
I concur.
I am having a hell of time trying to parse this sentence:
The puerile pleasure that gives offense-oriented women offsets the previous offense.
Who owns the first offense? and should there be a "that that" in there?
I am not bashing "cent" I am simply stating either I am to stupid to get what he is saying (and would very much like to be enlightened) or there is is one or two errors that make it incomprehensible to me.
Note: I am no one to talk when it comes to sentence errors....only if there is one please tell me because i am very interested in knowing what cent meant.
"Game of Thrones" is boy fiction patronizingly turned out to reach the population's other half.
From my understanding Game of thrones is a in the sub-genre of fantasy called Court Intrigue fantasy.
In other words it is about court intrigue more then about dragons and orcs and shit. Lots of ladies and lords falling in love and other sorts of stuff.
It is Fantasy for Women.
I don't read this stuff much anymore but as a teen I recall that the fantasy genera in general had a shit load of women writers. And just from anecdotal evidence has a pretty good female to male writer ratio when compared to other genre's like Horror or scifi.
Your understanding sounds like a load of horseshit. I have yet to see someone in this book fall in love with another person--with the exception of the incestual relationship that already exists between two characters. Instead, this is more political and military intrigue, alliance-formation, power of wills, betrayal (of political nature, not romantic), etc. The only supernatural stuff so far is dark and demonic (the Others, Melisande, the dragons). So you might want to read the books and shut the fuck up before commenting on them.
Most fantasy sucks, but this is the motherlode.
Instead, this is more political and military intrigue, alliance-formation, power of wills, betrayal
I did say "lords and ladies falling in love and other stuff"
Your list is the other stuff.
Plus it sounds like I am dead on classifying these books as "Court Intrigue Fantasy".
Not that there is anything wrong with "court intrigue"....
....No Homo.
Best I can do to hide spoilers: Eh, I'd say a couple of guys who have taken the black had/have fallen in love with a kissed by fire wilding wench and a sister wife of a certain old cretin.
But you're right, for the most part it isn't romance.
Speaking of fantasy, can I just say how pleased I am to have the last two Malazan books resting comfortably in my Kindle. I am debating whether I need to go back and start over with the first one again before I read them.
The Malazan books blow Song of Ice and Fire away when it comes to zillions of characters.
Several years ago, my mom bought me the first two books for Christmas on the suggestion of a male co-worker. I freaking loved them! Then I read the next two and love them some more! The fact that this woman thinks other women might have their delicate sensibilities offended by violence, swearing and fucking suggests to me she is a total idiot.
Also, the book has tons of sex so it isn't just "thrown in there" as a bone to the ladies (no pun intended).
I knew this show was gonna be good. I just knew it. Thanks, NYT for confirming.
Haha yes this comment made my day!
Sean Bean is in this. Women will watch.
Out of curiosity, I googled for anything Ms. Bellafante might have written about the TV movie version of "The Mists of Avalon," by Marion Zimmer Bradley, or HBO's "True Blood" series, based on novels by Charlaine Harris. I found nothing for the former, and a review filled with the same sort of sneering contempt for the latter.
I get the impression that all of Ms. Bellafante's reviews are basically exercises in finding new and creating ways to say, "I'm a bigoted moron who hates everything that a tiny handful of fellow Socialists didn't tell me to like."
My mom read LOTR back in like the 70s when she was in college. And she wasn't even particularly geeky.
Meanwhile, my dad never read LOTR and at the end of the Fellowship movie he asked "What happened to Steve?"
Although fantacay and game of thorns are not exclusively male i contend there is "boy" fantasy.
My three nominations for top male centric fantasy literature would be the "Conan" stories by Robert E. Howard, Michael Moorcock "Elric" series and The Chronicles of Thomas Covenan by Stephen R. Donaldson.
I feel that not to many women have read those stories or even heard of the last two.
Male fantasy geeks on the other hand consider these must reads.
hmm I am also thinking of adding anything Gene Wolfe has written to the list....
Yes I believe that this was insulting to women and men. I had the feeling reading the article that she was looking down at Game of Thrones as low art and yet she declared her love of Mad Men and The Sopranos twos shows that I would Compare it to.
yet she declared her love of Mad Men and The Sopranos twos shows that I would Compare it to.
My first reaction to seeing the trailer was HBO's "Rome".
What was meant to be a small comment
about this ended up being a full-blown blog. I hope it is alright that I leave a
link to it
here. Thank you
Ginia Bellafante = cunt that should have been aborted.