Reason Writers on The Alyona Show: Matt Welch Debates Porn Prosecutions on Russia Today

On Friday, April 7, Reason Editor in Chief Matt Welch duked it out with InternetSafety101.org's Cris Clapp Logan over whether it's a good idea to have the feds lock up pornographers. Enjoy the 7+ minutes of uncomfortable body language below, and have a nice weekend.

Comments

[AlmightyJB]

The host's closing comment was classic. I don't really think Matt needed to be there at all. And didn't the blond arguing against porn look like a star in like every porn movie?

[Spiny Norman]

If this were real porn, it would have ended in a three-way.

And it would have had a better soundtrack.

[John C. Randolph]

That's the first video I'll put on my new site, "UncomfortableBodyLanguage.com"

-jcr

[dbcooper]

She's definitely got the Brazzers "horny teacher gets DP'd by two students" look.

[Dave]

It's the heavy make-up and - lord almighty - such lipstick! that makes Cris look like a porn star. Hell, she's probably the "Baptist and Bootlegger" coalition all in one.

Personally I don't like the whole prostitute look, but of course it's Cris's choice what sort of impression she wishes to give.

Alyona, on the other hand, is more like the wholesome kind of girls I find attractive. Can't expect but only so much from someone on television, I presume. They all use makeup.

[Otto]

The miniskirt and boots weren't exactly church wear. Unless church has changed a lot since I was a kid.

[Michael Price]

Attendence was way down and we had to make some changes. We cut back to 8 commandments, started giving parishioners a choice of wines for communion, encouraged females to wear miniskirts etc.

[dbcooper]

Yeah, Alyona was pretty excellent at the end there.

[Tulpa]

Most porn movies don't involve blondes.

[JW]

Most porn movies don't involve real blondes.

[prolefeed]

Most women aren't blondes, so one wouldn't expect such a tiny minority of the populace to be the majority of porn actresses. There seems to be an * adequate * supply of the blond porn niche on Teh Intertubes.

[Colin]

How much you wanna bet that Cris is watching porn right this moment?

[AlmightyJB]

In my reality she is watching porn right now with Alyona.

[sloopyinca]

Am I in there with them, cause I am in my reality.

What an attractive retard.

[Otto]

Well, no one is going to bitch about Matt's tie now.

"This is about enforcing the US law..." How about this law, blondie? I don't see the exemption for "stuff religious blondes don't like".

[sloopyinca]

I would imagine her retort would go something like: "Well, the 1A wasn't written when porn was around corrupting the youth. It has also soundly been limited in scope by the supreme Court on several occasions. Just like you can't yell fire in a crowded theater, blah, blah, blah. Children. Blah, blah, blah. Violence against women, blah, blah, blah. Sex trafficking, blah, blah, blah."

[Otto]

You're right. It's a version of the same stupid arguments used for the drug war. "Even if drug use / watching porn is done consensually, it leads to non-consensual behavior!"

[Spiny Norman]

She also neglected to mention that the Supreme Court struck down the Communications Decency Act and failed to uphold the Child Online Protection Act. That would seem to undercut her argument somewhat.

[Otto]

It would, if she cared about facts. She seemed immune to them. Both Matt and Alyona pointed out that all the (actual crimes) she was complaining about have fallen dramatically during the same time porn has become ubiquitous on the Internet. Correlation is not necessarily causation, but given those numbers, those who would claim these horrible effects from porn have an extra hurdle to clear. It seems like they'd rather just make assertions, since that's doable, and proving their case isn't.

[Tulpa]

To be precise, correlation is necessary but not sufficient for causation. That is, correlation does not imply causation; however, lack of correlation does imply lack of causation.

[robc]

However, the causation effect could be real but so small that it doesnt show up in a correlation.

For example:
In town X in 1991 there were 100 rapes, 3 of which were caused by porn.

In 2011, there were only 50 rapes, but the increase in porn means that 6 of them were caused by porn.

Thus, the rapes due to porn factor could have doubled while the rapes due to other factor more than halved (97 to 46).

[robc]

Note: Im not suggesting that porn causes rape or that, on the other hand, its a small factor in rape. Just pointing out statistical stuff.

[Hobo Chang Ba]

Another point is that it's a lot easier to find people willing to have sex than it ever was. Used to be that bars, classifieds and massage parlors/whorehouses were the only options. Now there's the internet plus those things...

Not that rape is about sex, but those who like rough sex and domination can find it easier than ever before.

[SC Justice William O. Douglas]

The standard of what offends 'the common conscience of the community' conflicts, in my judgement, with the command of the First Amendment. Any test that turns on what is offensive to the community's standards is too loose, too capricious, too destructive of freedom of expression to be squared with the First Amendment.

Under the test, juries can censor, supress and punish what they don't like...If the First Amendment guarantee of freedom of speech and press is to mean anything...it must allow protests against the moral code that the standard of the day sets for the community.

Terminiello v. Chicago (1949)

[rather]

Correlation does not imply causation

[John]

Yeah but it is necessary for causation. The fall in crime correlation with the rise in internet porn for sure doesn't mean that more porn equals less crime. But what it certainly DOES mean is more porn DOES NOT equal more crime. You are flipping the causality around.

[Tulpa]

Maybe I should read the threat in its entirety before commenting.

[Episiarch]

Are you threatening me? I am the great Cornholio! I need TP for my bunghole!

[me/dwc]

There is a very popular yard game out here in Ohio called corn hole. I've been here for nearly a year and I still haven't come to terms with it. Many people are with Bill Buckley when he expressed the sentiment that the purpose of the 1st Amendment is to protect "good speech". 'Cept, you know, "good speech" don't need protectin'.

[Malto Dextrin]

Hey I thought you were deported:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....ata_player

[prolefeed]

But what it certainly DOES mean is more porn DOES NOT equal more crime.

Well, not even that.

Falling sexual crime rates might be caused by porn.

Falling sexual crime rates might be entirely unrelated to the rise in the availability of porn. That drop might be due to demographic changes, for example.

Falling sexual crime rates might be happening due to such unrelated causes as demographic changes, and falling so fast that these other causes mask a rise in porn-related sexual violence.

So, while the drop in crime rates along with the rise in porn indicates that there might be a negative causation, and undercuts the statistical case being made by the porn censor nannies, it doesn't PROVE anything.

[rather]

I have no doubt porn is used in grooming for the sex trade but the catalyst are the men, not porn.

She needs to focus on countries that ignore the industry; it is tragic

[rather retarded]

I have no doubt because I'm retarded and too ugly for midget fetish porn.

[Tulpa]

From what I understand, there's not much grooming going on in the sex trade.

[Pro Libertate]

Porn is mandatory in Russia?

[Brett L]

I think in Russia porn watches you. Or something.

[wylie]

Pretty handy if you're into someone watching you fuck.

[David]

Please protect me.

[ther is porn]

for that 😉

[rather retarded]

OOPS I SPELL BAD

[Fist of Etiquette]

"This isn't about moral panic. This is about enforcing the US law..."

Hey, genius, we're debating that law and its impact.

Cris "The Clapp" Logan is terrible at this, but then she doesn't have good material to work with. Bottom line, Logan and her ilk don't like that other people like porn. That's the only statistic she needs in her justifications.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Come to think of it, it's probably the only accurate statistic that she can cite in defense of her position.

[oh those hi heel leather boots]

have mercy now!

[rather]

porn doesn't cause rape, nor prevent it -neither have archetype

Neither Matt or Cris have a serious view

[rather retarded]

"porn doesn't... prevent [rape]"

Proof? Nah, just retarded.

[graphfan]

My favorite part is when Matt acts out the line graph. He just can't hold back the nerd.

[Tim Cavanaugh]

Come on, Matt acting out "showing their boobs" has to top that.

[sloopyinca]

In Soviet Russia, porn jerks off to you!

[Porn Nazi]

NO HAND RELIEF FOR YOU!!!

[crimethink]

If we extend the usual ground rules for the abortion debate to the porn debate, the opinions of women on the subject don't matter since they don't watch porn.

[dbcooper]

Crimethink comes in for an abortion threadjack attempt! Who wouldda thought it!

[heller]

Not to mention the assumption that women don't watch porn, one of the telltale signs of a virgin.

[dbcooper]

Indeed. I gotta hand it to the Guardian this week though. They had an article about how many women watch porn these days, but still managed to fit in some vintage, "exploitation", "desensitizing", hand-wringing.

[heller]

I'm pretty sure the majority of my girlfriends have enjoyed watching porn in one form or another.

[dbcooper]

One of mine was a right fiend. She even subscribed to Hustler Taboo.

[heller]

Daaaaaaamn

[crimethink]

I'm pretty sure the majority of my girlfriends have enjoyed watching porn in one form or another.

Don't be too hard on yourself, heller, I'm sure it has nothing to do with your performance.

[heller]

How does that compare to zero performance? Idiot.

[sloopyinca]

C'mon, heller. He's saving [chuckles]...he's [laughs] saving himseeeee.[explodes in a fit of hysterical laughter]

Aw, hell. I tried to get it all the way out. Couldn't keep a straight face.

[crimethink]

No telltale signs are necessary; I've never been bashful or ashamed about not engaging in the friction of the flesh.

[heller]

Well first of all, if you do ever wanna get laid, please PLEASE don't refer to sex as "the friction of the flesh."

Jesus.

[sloopyinca]

Methinks he calls it that because he's never been able to get a woman wet.

[rather]

lol

[crimethink]

More women than you think appreciate poetic turns of phrase. The others probably aren't worth the trouble.

[heller]

I'm sure you that's true in your imagination world.

[yonemoto]

he's not wrong: a good portion the ones that don't look at porn, are worth it because the abstinence is like a dam waiting to be cracked. Of course this is not a general statement, and the rest are, probably cold fishes with some sort of hormonal problem.

[Hobo Chang Ba]

So no jerking off either than?

[prolefeed]

A lot fewer women than men watch porn. My wife, for example, refuses to watch the stuff.

[fresno dan]

maybe if you showed her something other than lesbian oil wrestling.
I can't understand how anyone could not love lesbian oil wrestling, but apparently the 3% of the female population that is not lesbian likes to see cocks.

[yonemoto]

I don't love lesbian oil wrestling, but I do love lesbian porn in general. I think my brain has some sort of 'reality filter'... While my brain is perfectly capable of transposing myself as one of the lesbians, the addition of oil makes me think, 'that could never be me'.

Does that help?

[yonemoto]

to clarify: I don't like straight or gay porn with oil, either.

[FXKLM]

I love the slippery slope of what constitutes deviant porn. She starts with women eating vomit and rolling around in urine, but then she tosses in group sex.

[heller]

Anything not missionary or with unmarried actors.

[heller]

And of course the question of whether these women actually choose to eat vomit or roll around in urine because they enjoy it never comes up...

[Golden Showers]

That vomit-eating thing is new to me.

[Dave]

Um, yeah. That was my thought when I heard her say that: does she really think that's the popular stuff?

[heller]

No I think her point was that unpopular porn is bad.

[erm]

Anyone ever see Russian porn? Pretty brutal stuff.

[heller]

I've seen porn from Russia. It was pretty amateur and tame.

[yonemoto]

Dude. Russia is no Germany.

[sloopyinca]

And Germany is no Japan.

Seriously, WTF is up with the octopus fetish?

[yonemoto]

only in cartoons afaik. But I don't know, I'm not a connosieur of cartoon porn. I prefer australia.

[Otto]

Well, here's a (SFW, or at least no nudity) picture that sure looks like live action.

Admittedly, the squid seem incidental to the action...

[Tara]

The short-answer reason Japanese porn (especially animated porn from late-night TV) is so weird: The US Government.

Seriously, part of the Marshal plan included us exporting certain ideas about censorship and "indecency", so there are government restrictions against porn which shows male genitals, but these restrictions are sometimes fairly lax about female nudity.

The work around: Produce animated porn with women being penetrated by other phalluses, such as penis-shaped tentacles.

[yonemoto]

let's be clear here. If we banned porn, then there would basically have been no science done (by men OR women) in the last 20 years.

[Alex]

Yes. We should really protect the interests of women and children by restricting porn. I mean, just look how well the women of Iran/Pakistan are doing!

[Ken Shultz]

That lady talks about children acting out sexually at younger ages, and if that's true, I can't help but wonder if that's just tied to the dropping age of puberty.

I've read a few times (probably here at Hit & Run) about dropping puberty averages. I've heard it blamed on things like the hormones they use in dairy cows. But for all I know, it could be because of better nutrition!

Anyway, if the age of puberty is dropping on average, wouldn't that explain why kids are acting out sexually sooner? It would be silly to suggest that exposure to pron is the cause of the age of puberty dropping--but that seems to be what she's doing.

[Max]

Aha! I knew you libertarians were all pedos!

[Ken Shultz]

I didn't bring it up!

It was the anti-pron crusader lady.

[sloopyinca]

I assumed it was because there is a larger % of the population in America that's black. And you know how them blacks love to have unprotected sex at an early age.

Wasn't that where Planned Parenthood came from in the first place?

[me/dwc]

Is this true for boys as well as girls? Just curious. I'll tell you what (and if you need to hate me for it, go ahead) when I was in Puerto Rico a few years ago at some fancy beach hotel, there was an abundance of girls in the 12 to 14 year old range (as far as I could tell) in miniscule bikinis and with bodies equivalent to playboy bunnies only miniaturized. A whole lot of cognitive dissonance going on in my brain. I have no particular interest in young teens, mind you, but I would be lying if I were to say they were not striking, for lack of a better word.

[Auric Demonocles]

But for all I know, it could be because of better nutrition!

The research I've seen suggests that the biggest predictor of when a girl will enter puberty is her bodyweight. I forget what the numerical threshold was.

[Dave]

Actually, children have long been known to act out sexually. The period that Freud described as "latency" was simply the period between when children learned that they were supposed to hide their behavior from adults, and the time that they were allowed to resume being sexual creatures.

Of course, American media virtually never depicts children accurately. All the films I have seen that depict the lives of children accurately, to the degree that they conform to my own memories of a plain vanilla childhood, are French - though some Latin American films come close.

Face it - the English-speaking peoples are NUTS.

[Golden Showes in the Sunset]

That vomit-eating is new to me.

[Golden Showers in the Sunset]

That too

[sloopyinca]

"Hardcore group sex, beastiality and the like..."

[ejaculation of surprise]

[cApitalist]

"Demeaning? I'll show you demeaning!"

*slaps dick on her forehead*

[sloopyinca]

Didn't someone do something like that to Marilyn Chambers in Insatiable?

I swear, I remember her laying on a pool table trying to suck some guy's dick. He pulled it out of her mouth and smacked her in the forehead with it and told her, "You don't suck it till I tell you to." I think it was John Holmes.

And that was 30+ years ago, IIRC.

[Tim Cavanaugh]

Q. So what was the porn event (PE) of 2004 that arrested the decline in domestic violence statistics?

A. Abu Ghreib?

Q. Did the long-term decline in "sexual/domestic violence" instances actually reverse in 2004, per the claim of Cris Clapp Logan?

A. Using as a proxy Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) reports of forcible rape, it did:

2003: 93,883
2004: 95,089

Q. Did this trend continue?

A. It did not. Forcible rape instances reported to FBI continued to decline in 2005, 2007, 2008, and 2009:

2005: 94,347
2006: 94,782
2007: 91,874
2008: 90,479
2009: 88,097

[Note that the FBI's statistics are subject to a lengthy disclaimer entitled Caution against ranking: Variables Affecting Crime at the Uniform Crime Statistics (UCR) site on the world wide web, the graphical and multimedia portion of the internet. The statistics above for 2003 and 2004 are drawn from the 2007 report, for 2005 through 2009 from the 2009 report. The final 2010 Uniform Crime Report is not available. As noted above, these are statistics for forcible rape and are not necessarily convertible to sexual/domestic violence statistics. Local police departments also collect crime statistics, about which further information can be found on the internet.]

Q. How do we know that the commenter above is out of line in comparing Cris Clapp Logan to a porn performer?

A. According to her biography at enough-dot-org, Clapp Logan graduated Magna Cum Laude with a B.S. in Business Administration and Political Science from the University of Mary Washington. After graduation, Clapp Logan worked on a "Safe Kids, Healthy Communities" agenda as an employee of former Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pennsylvania). Her interests include but are not limited to initiatives against sexual exploitation efforts and human trafficking. Her interest in anti-pornography, and her belief that pornography leads to oppression and violence, appear genuine.

Q. That's not the right answer, dummy. The right answer is: "If you were working in porn would you call yourself Cris Clapp Logan?"

A. I would if there were a market for STD fetish.

Q. Is there a market for STD fetish?

A. Apparently.

Q. What is the University of Mary Washington?

A. A public liberal arts university in Fredericksburg, Virginia.

Q. Mary Washington, Mary Washington... Is that an accredited school?

A. The University of Mary Washington is accredited by the Commission on Colleges of the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools to award Bachelor's and Master's degrees.

Southern Association of Colleges and Schools
1866 Southern Lane
Decatur, Georgia 30033-4097
telephone number 404/679-4500

Q. So who was "Mary Washington" anyway?

A. Mary Washington was the mother of George Washington, first president of the United States under the current constitution.

Q. Right, because John Hanson was the real first president under the Articles of Confederation, right?

A. While John Hanson was the first president of the Confederation Congress elected to a one-year term, the first president of the Confederation Congress to hold office after the cessation of hostilities was Thomas McKean. McKean was succeeded by Hanson, Elias Boudinot, Thomas Mifflin, Richard Henry Lee, and John Hancock.

Q. But John Hanson was still the first black president, right?

A. Exactly.

[sloopyinca]

Now who can argue with that? I think we're all indebted to Tim Cavanaugh for stating what needed to be said. I am particulary glad that these lovely children are here today to hear that speech. Not only was it authentic frontier gibberish, it expressed the courage little seen in this day and age.

[Tim Cavanaugh]

But my list of the real founding fathers was incomplete: Nathaniel Gorham, Arthur St. Clair, Cyrus Griffin. Say their names with pride for as long as freedom reigns.

[heller]

You also SugarFree'd that exciting-sounding link.

[sloopyinca]

Cyrus Griffin would have been a great leader had Luther not shot him that fateful night in Van Cortlandt Park.

Can you dig it?

[Tim Cavanaugh]

Come out and play.

[sloopyinca]

Serious question, Tim.

What are the chances of a Reason viewing party for Atlas Shrugged in California next weekend? It's not playing anywhere in the central valley and I need to take my kids to see it.

[Tim Cavanaugh]

It's playing in Bakersfield and Fresno according to the site. The Central Valley's a big place.

I'm probably going to see a 7pm show Saturday at the Regent in Westwood-ish. A bunch of objectivoids I was with last night were planning to get a crowd and an afterparty together for that showing. I hope to make that one, but can't guarantee anything because it's in the future, and I can only plan for the past.

[sloopyinca]

Wow. That's been updated quite a bit since the story was posted on here a couple of days ago.

[cypress]

The falling rate of crimes vs. the availability of porn might be confounded with the increase in concealed carry over the same period of time, but what the hell, I'd bend blondie over.

[Mr Whipple???]

Is she wearing "come-fuck-me" boots?

[Alice Bowie]

That's a bunch of Bullshit.

The fact is (at least according to FBI Statistics) that violent crime is DOWN and the prosecution of BULLSHIT like a 17yo having sex with an 18yo is UP.

[sloopyinca]

a 17yo having sex with an 18yo

Linky?

[sure...]

...you perv.

[Joe M]

God that woman needs to get laid.

[sloopyinca]

[raises hand]

[The Bearded Hobbit]

Matt,

Nicely done.

Also, you actually wore a tie that I would wear. Kudos.

... Hobbit

[Anonymous Coward]

A normal, healthy sexual relationship...

What exactly is a normal, healthy, sexual relationship? Missionary, fully-clothed with the lights off?

[alzabo]

I once dated a girl who told me at the outset: "I'll do anything except anal and facials." I was like, "What else is there?"

[alzabo]

To repeat a joke I am pretty sure I heard here...

[heller]

That wasn't a joke.

[alzabo]

Good, cause it's not a joke in this neck of the woods either. Anymore..

[alzabo]

I'm afraid I'm very easily influenced by things like that, you see.

[Eli]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....r_embedded

[heller]

They're laughing, but really they've already lost since they know who Sarah Palin is.

[chillax]

I think what these young porn fetishists are missing is hardcore parenting. I think what Congress is missing is a large plastic sheet and flavored body oils.

[Dois Mos]

Wow, she is way CUTE, I'd hit it!

http://www.Privacy-Net.tk

[MNG]

Hey, does anyone know how many porn-related federal charges have been initiated by this administration compared to the last? I remember reading that the Bush DOJ was directing federal prosecutors to step up such cases and loaning feds out to aid local prosecutors in such cases. I wonder if Obama has been continuing those policies?

[sloopyinca]

Yeah, I may have read somewhere that Obama wanted to continue those programs, but between the extra agents needed to ramp up the rendition process, the added agents required to torture Bradley Manning 24 hours a day, the agents good at flight sim games being pulled so they could fly drone missions looking to assassinate Americans overseas and those who were sent to Libya to act in advisory capacities, he's been unable to do so.

[Well, ming]

Obama wanted to step it up but his advisers found so much porn on government computers, they backed down.

[sloopyinca]

I don't think you want to go there, minge. But since you asked, the Obama DHS actually set up a child sex-tourism website to entrap people.

At least the Team Red raids, as unconstitutional and distasteful as I find them, weren't designed to draw people in and then arrest them for a crime they otherwise wouldn't have even had the opportunity to commit.

Another case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

Here's a screencap of their homepage.

[AlmightyJB]

Why did you have to include Matt? No one wants to see that. Girl on Girl!

[AlmightyJB]

This was supposed to be a reply to Spiny Normans comment at the top:

"If this were real porn, it would have ended in a three-way."

Damn squirrels

[sloopyinca]

Typically, I avoid clapptrap, but I'd really like to see hers.

[Big pony]

I like what you have said,it is really helpful to me,thanks!

[small toy]

yes,Most porn movies don't involve blondes.

[Jeanwoo]

I got my Herpes result exactly one month before my birthday. I felt like my world had ended. I cried for days not knowing what to do or who to turn to. I contracted herpes from my on and off boyfriend who I knew was a liar and a cheat. After doing a lot of research online I finally met this guy who had an herpes blog at http://www.datingforpeoplewithstds.com . He added me as a favorite at the site. It was there and with the help of God that I got my strength. I realized then that there were so many other people out there like me. I changed my attitude, started eating healthier, and stopped sweating the small stuff. I went from having mild outbreaks every other week, to once a moth and now I can't recall the last time I had one. Me contracting herpes has made me more cautious when it comes to sex and choosing a partner. Although I would have preferred not having herpes. I am grateful that it is herpes and not something more serious.

It really isn't the end of the world. You have to first accept that you have this disease, love yourself and others will love you. I always say that herpes is the most loyal thing in my life it will be with me forever even when I die :-).