Everybody Rations?
Matt Yglesias writes that when it comes to Medicare, both conservatives and liberals want to ration:
What's being proposed is to try to deploy evidence about the effectiveness of different treatments to limit what Medicare will pay for, leaving people free to pay for it themselves if they want to. Conservatives who don't like this idea chose to metaphorically label this "rationing" but it's no different from what they themselves are proposing to do.
I don't think it's quite right to say that there's no difference. Those who favor vouchers or various flavors of premium support, like the overhaul proposed GOP Rep. Paul Ryan's recent budget plan, are proposing to give every individual a preset amount of funding and then allow them to spend it more or less as they please (frustratingly—and this is something that should be discussed more—Ryan's new proposal limits how individuals can apply their premium support dollar far more than his old Roadmap budget plan did). Vouchers aren't a guaranteed solution to rising federal spending on health care: They may end up being expensive because politicians refuse to go along with built in growth caps and end reset the vouchers' dollar values at high levels. But as Cato's Michael Cannon has argued, a voucher system does help limit incentives for medical providers to lobby for ever-greater spending.
Liberals, on the other hand, tend to want Medicare not to have a set dollar cap per patient, but to 1) limit what treatments are paid for and 2) limit how much providers are paid. But as we've seen to some extent with Medicare and to a very large extent with Medicaid, centrally-planned limits on provider reimbursements tend to drive providers out of the market and limit access to care. So one of two things happens: Either the reimbursement rates fall and access likely falls with it—or reimbursement rates don't fall, and spending doesn't actually come down.
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Where is Everybody?
All goods are scarce, demand is infinite. "Rationing" is a fact in *all* trade; it can't be otherwise.
Ration by ability to pay or by guanxi, that is the only choice.
Either the reimbursement rates fall and access likely falls with it?or reimbursement rates don't fall, and spending doesn't actually come down
Yes, doctors will leave Medicaid/Medicare If the rates fall, unless they are accompanied with incentives to keep and even recruit more patients.
Libertarian black and white thinking is not beneficial to finding solutions
"Libertarian black and white thinking is not beneficial to finding solutions"
Lefty fantasies cause the problems.
Logically, since both sides have had control, and failed to reform Medicare/Medicaid, both share the blame.
So, the solution is the issue, and it requires new thinking, not name-calling.
The ideal would be to give doctors financial incentive for M/M without taxpayer financing.
It is possible to create a class of physicians who are exempt from insurance/libel burdens, and possibly other regulatory easing.
See, I don't see how, if politically cutting things will be tough, excusing docs from liability will be easy.
The horror stories from elderly patients write themselves.
doctors are already doing this and the government would legitimize, and further incentivize this growing practice.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/52.....alth_care/
There is dumb. There is stupid. There is 'I can't believe the level of ignorance'.
And you just lowered the bar further.
You bet! people are going to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and many years of their lives and then make themselves turnips.
I don't think you understand the cost of doing business for physicians
*conical thumb spikes up
that was to gold water, *munch
rather, do you? how many physicians over 55 do you know, & what's that in 1984 dollar$? you do the math i'm lazy
rather |4.7.11 @ 9:09PM|#
"Logically, since both sides have had control, and failed to reform Medicare/Medicaid, both share the blame."
So the lefties of team red and team blue caused the problem? Yep.
"So, the solution is the issue, and it requires new thinking, not name-calling."
The "solution" is not to cause the problem to begin with, not to paste bandaids on it after you have. Take it behind the barn and shoot it.
"The ideal would be to give doctors financial incentive for M/M without taxpayer financing.
It is possible to create a class of physicians who are exempt from insurance/libel burdens, and possibly other regulatory easing."
And if we had ham, we could have ham and eggs, if we had eggs.
Why not just say 'everything is free!'. Just as easy....
Take it behind the barn and shoot it
you would have that option 😉
rather |4.7.11 @ 9:41PM|#
"Take it behind the barn and shoot it"
you would have that option 😉
There's one difference in what I propose and what you do.
Mine would SOLVE the problem. Yours add more problems.
Yes there is dissension but my compromise would include health care
Libertarians hove not "had control" and nothing remotely resembling a libertarian policy on health insurance has ever been tried. Maybe that is what we should try now since "both sides" (i.e. two political parties with a lot invested in the status quo) have failed.
I know you're wrong but I'm just too retarded to think of why!
Eh. Aren't vouchers just the redheaded, transsexual bastard stepchildren of HSAs, which are themselves the bastard stepchildren of, I don't know, letting an actual market of some kind determine what services people need and what they should pay for them?
"Aren't vouchers just the redheaded, transsexual bastard stepchildren of HSAs" -- Not really. A voucher is money given to you by a government, whereas a HSA is just a legal structure sanctioned by the government. A HSA doesn't involve money be given to you by a government.
"which are themselves the bastard stepchildren of, I don't know, letting an actual market of some kind determine what services people need and what they should pay for them?" -- Pretty much.
Market driven rationing conserves the resource and gives signals to the providers on which services are needed the most and where to focus development of that resource.
Anne Applebalm said it best when she described the Soviet Union in her book "GULAG"
"The USSR was not underdeveloped, it was misdeveloped."
By replacing the market rationing with centrally planned rationing you will misdevelope the resource.
Rationing has already been touted by the Obama Administration as part of the solution.
If making people pay a ridiculous premium for having "Cadillac" private insurance plans isn't an attempt to take care away from one group of people and give it to another group of people--as if it were some kind of zero sum game--if that isn't rationing, what is it?
You people over there can't have the extra better healthcare you want--you have to give it to those people instead! That's rationing.
If ObamaCare isn't actively rationing healthcare, then why does his plan punish providers for investing in new technology?
We don't want you selling the best healthcare to the highest bidders--we want you to save the resources you're devoting to high quality products and provide more basic healthcare to people who can't afford to pay for it instead!
When you try to restrict the quantity and quality of resources various providers dole out--you're rationing.
Wheel chairs cost less than hip replacements--and when Medicaid patients are refused hip replacements because they aren't "medically necessary" so long as there are wheel chairs to be had?
That's rationing.
http://blogs.hcpro.com/caseman.....w-meaning/
We could stop all rationing tomorrow, if we chose.
http://ezraklein.typepad.com/b.....ugman.html
OK, I took a look:
"What we do in this society is devote relatively unlimited resources to health care for wealthy and insured people and relatively fewer to health care for poor people. It isn't clear whether we think that's a useful way to spend trillions of dollars,..."
"We"? Got a mouse in your pocket?
Personally, I buy the insurance and services I think are useful.
See the problem people like Ezra Klein have is that they can't understand why someone wouldn't want to exproptiate as much money as they can from others. They think there's something abnormal about it. In their world, voting your self interest is all about getting as much as you can from the public treasury.
Oh, and this:
"We could stop all rationing tomorrow, if we chose."
is a flat-out lie. What you mean is that we could 'ration' things differently.
So despite their extremism, Republicans accept the frame that we need to provide socialist healthcare subsidies for old people (for now). So why should we go with their plan when it's obviously a hamfisted attempt to destroy the system while they lie about it? I don't think anybody is going to vote GOP for their healthcare plan.
Tony|4.7.11 @ 9:17PM|#
(parsed) "I hate Republicans and I can invent stupid statements and lies to tell you why!"
Thanks, Tony. Comic relief is always welcome.
sevo parsed: I love Republicans
Tony|4.7.11 @ 9:36PM|#
"sevo parsed: I love Republicans"
Hey, asshole! Ever see me support an R? Stupid shit.
Well don't act so offended if I say something bad about them.
Tony|4.7.11 @ 10:11PM|#
"Well don't act so offended if I say something bad about them."
So stupidity passes if I don't support what you lie about?
Stupid shit.
Deregulation of insurance. Phase out of government medical services (if healthcare for the poor is to be provided, they get vouchers/checks, period). Let the friggin' market work.
How many entrepreneurs do you think are clamoring to provide health insurance to old, sick, disabled, and poor people? How the fuck does the market protect their basic needs? It doesn't, and that's why governments the world over have stepped in. Sorry your magic market failed. It should try harder.
Have you not seen the fucking Rascal? Or how about the diabeetus stuff Wilfred Brimley hawked forever? You think those were developed by non-entrepreneurs?
They were developed for a market where Medicare pays for most of it, though.
Tony, you are right. If Medicare suddenly disappeared, it would probably be hard for old people without much money to get health insurance coverage. You may notice, above, that PL suggested giving such people checks or vouchers to such people. A lot of other old people have money and can pay for their care (or decide to go without, they're old for fuck's sake). Transitioning to a more free market system would not be painless and it won't happen over night. A lot of things will need to readjust, as the market has been so fucked with for so long.
Tony|4.7.11 @ 9:37PM|#
parsed: "I'm so stupid, I can't figure it out, so there is not solution!"
Hey, Tony, how do people get pencils?
I can figure out and there is a solution. Just not a free-market one. Again, sorry the thing you worship is so inadequate.
Tony|4.7.11 @ 10:13PM|#
"I can figure out and there is a solution."
You bet! The new Soviet Man!
It's been tried. Doesn't work.
You know who else thought he had a solution for a big problem?
Libertarians.
Here's a proposal. Call it "rationing" if you like. Any citizen "gets" a million-(2011)dollar account upon its birth to spend on health care. When a medical expense for the citizen is paid by the state, the account is diminished by the cost in 2011 dollars. When the million is gone, the citizen is on its own.
no
What liberals want is equalized misery.
In their puny little brains, they think it's "just not fair" that those with money can buy better outcomes. So they want to do their best to drag everyone down to the same misrable level.
It would be convenient for you if the choice were between shared misery or a bifurcated feudal system. In the latter, at least some people are happy.
But, say, returning tax levels to the Reagan era won't put anyone in misery. It could actually greatly reduce misery. Your problem is caring more about principles than people. It makes you believe ridiculous things like a small increase in tax rates for the wealthy is more morally abhorrent than letting people live without healthcare.
Quit wasting space.
You aren't even genetically capable of having enough brain cells in your head to know more than I do about any aspect of existence.
Why do you people argue with the Tony sockpuppet? It's specifically designed to troll you, and you fall for it hook, line, and sinker. Every. Fucking. Time.
Yeah why can't you live a useless existence as a person who never says anything of value but repeats the words sockpuppet and TEAM over and over and over like he's plunged the depths of all wisdom and came up with "the parties suck equally!"
Yeah why can't you live a useless existence as a person who never says anything of value but repeats the words sockpuppet and TEAM over and over and over like he's plunged the depths of all wisdom and came up with "the parties suck equally!"
I didn't give you permission to address me, sockpuppet; especially not with a double post, you internet-impaired moron. If I want to hear from you, I'll let you know.
Don't wait up.
There is a "Tony" who posts?
Huh.
It comes down to the basic problem that left-liberals have with understanding economics. They think that people responding to financial incentives - i.e. people acting in their self-interest - is immoral and worthy of criminalization. Hence their solution is generally to ignore incentives, set specific prices, and then condemn the people who respond to whatever incentives that creates as evil, selfish, greedy, bastards.
The libertarian approach is always to recognize that people's efforts to act in their self-interest is generally good, and if you set the rules fairly and equitably, that you will tend to create incentives that lead people to produce and consume more efficiently, and that will lead to a more optimal outcome than attempting to specify exactly what the market "should" do.
and if you set the rules fairly and equitably, that you will tend to create incentives that lead people to produce and consume more efficiently,
Michael Cannon can't be so naive as to think medical providers won't still band together to lobby for bigger vouchers can he? The AMA will still exist and will lobby hard because doctors will benefit from bigger vouchers. And while hospitals won't know what precise percentage of vouchers they'll get you'd better believe it will take them less than a month, with a summer intern, to figure out what percentage of the increase in vouchers will go to them. That's not including the whole new lobbying group created by insurance companies that accept vouchers and the existing old folks lobbying groups. Cannon provides a pretty weak argument.
Tyler Cowan had a link to an analysis the other day that pretty much contradicted exactly what Cannon said.