Environmentalist George Monbiot Says Greens Have Been Lying About Nuclear Power
Better late than never, I guess. Guardian columnist and fierce environmentalist George Monbiot has called out anti-nuclear activist Helen Caldicott and her confreres for misleading the world about the alleged dangers of nuclear power. The column speaks for itself:
??Over the last fortnight I've made a deeply troubling discovery. The anti-nuclear movement to which I once belonged has misled the world about the impacts of radiation on human health. The claims we have made are ungrounded in science, unsupportable when challenged, and wildly wrong. We have done other people, and ourselves, a terrible disservice.
I began to see the extent of the problem after a debate last week with Helen Caldicott. Dr Caldicott is the world's foremost anti-nuclear campaigner. She has received 21 honorary degrees and scores of awards, and was nominated for a Nobel peace prize. Like other greens, I was in awe of her. In the debate she made some striking statements about the dangers of radiation. So I did what anyone faced with questionable scientific claims should do: I asked for the sources. Caldicott's response has profoundly shaken me.
First she sent me nine documents: newspaper articles, press releases and an advertisement. None were scientific publications; none contained sources for the claims she had made. But one of the press releases referred to a report by the US National Academy of Sciences, which she urged me to read. I have now done so – all 423 pages. It supports none of the statements I questioned; in fact it strongly contradicts her claims about the health effects of radiation.
I pressed her further and she gave me a series of answers that made my heart sink – in most cases they referred to publications which had little or no scientific standing, which did not support her claims or which contradicted them. (I have posted our correspondence, and my sources, on my website.) I have just read her book Nuclear Power Is Not the Answer. The scarcity of references to scientific papers and the abundance of unsourced claims it contains amaze me.
For the last 25 years anti-nuclear campaigners have been racking up the figures for deaths and diseases caused by the Chernobyl disaster, and parading deformed babies like a medieval circus. They now claim 985,000 people have been killed by Chernobyl, and that it will continue to slaughter people for generations to come. These claims are false.
The UN Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation (Unscear) is the equivalent of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Like the IPCC, it calls on the world's leading scientists to assess thousands of papers and produce an overview. Here is what it says about the impacts of Chernobyl.
Of the workers who tried to contain the emergency at Chernobyl, 134 suffered acute radiation syndrome; 28 died soon afterwards. Nineteen others died later, but generally not from diseases associated with radiation. The remaining 87 have suffered other complications, including four cases of solid cancer and two of leukaemia.
In the rest of the population there have been 6,848 cases of thyroid cancer among young children – arising "almost entirely" from the Soviet Union's failure to prevent people from drinking milk contaminated with iodine 131. Otherwise "there has been no persuasive evidence of any other health effect in the general population that can be attributed to radiation exposure". People living in the countries affected today "need not live in fear of serious health consequences from the Chernobyl accident".
Caldicott told me that Unscear's work on Chernobyl is "a total cover-up". Though I have pressed her to explain, she has yet to produce a shred of evidence for this contention.
Monbiot concludes:
We have a duty to base our judgments on the best available information. This is not only because we owe it to other people to represent the issues fairly, but also because we owe it to ourselves not to squander our lives on fairytales. A great wrong has been done by this movement. We must put it right.
Welcome at long last to the reality-based community, George.
Caveat: I do not favor either nuclear socialism or solar socialism. Let's completely eliminate subsidies to all energy production technologies. Nevertheless, Monbiot's whole column is well worth reading.
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Say it ain't so, Shoeless!!
There's a difference between being "green" for the sake of being green and being green due to education and awareness of energy situations. No truely knowledgable fan of sustainability is against nuclear for environmental reasons. I whole heartedly support its use and expansion. My friends and colleagues all feel the same way. I wish there wasn't such a disconnect between academia, policy, and the idiots that make up the extremes on both sides of the party lines.
Re: Doc S,
"Energy Situations"?
Really?
http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/.....new-nukes/
I whole heartedly support its use and expansion. My friends and colleagues all feel the same way. I wish there wasn't such a disconnect between academia, policy, and the idiots that make up the extremes on both sides of the party lines.
Giving me greenpeace as a representation of truely knowledgeable is a joke in itself. Thanks for making my point.
Doc s: would you happen to be a doctor for the National Health?
I'm as much opposed to Greenpeace's take on the issues as anyone else on "the right". My opposition, which is reflected by many, many others, is based on making arguments "on the merits": facts, rebuttal, logic and all that other Old School stuff.
But simply blowing them off with airy assertions is just chickenbleep. WHY are they wrong on THIS issue?
No, im not a real dr. I have a PhD, so try not to do anything where I would have to attempt to do anything of life saving value.
In response to your second question. In all honestly initially i didn't feel the need to read the article after i read the source and the title, as i felt that it would probably be fairly uninformed.
At your request though, I did read the article and here is why i disagree.
1) yes, cost is prohibitive, however, this is the case for a few reasons: Unecessarily overburdensome regulatory barriers, artificially low pricing of coal and ng alternatives, silly NIMBY issues.
Points 2+3) in the article seem to focus mainly on safety and terrorism. Neither of these should really be an issue as long as the reactors arent built on fault lines (ruh roh california!) and terrorists remain incapable of generating earthquakes or tsunamis. If that second thing changes then i'll happily change my stance. I will concede that transportation of the material to a place like yuca mountian could present security risks if done improperly.
Honestly, in my opinion (yes just opinion) I think that we really need to increase the production capabilities and reliance on nuclear energy. I thinnk CO2 and GHG gasses are really a threat to take serioulsy. I think that nuclear is far cleaner than coal and ng, but that coal and ng need to remain a part of the energy portfolio. I think that the small risks really are outweighed by the rewards of abundant and reliable energy.
Greenpeace ends the article with saying that terrorists arent focusing on wind turbines or solar plants, but at this stage in the game wind and solar aren't as viable of alternatives as nuclear, until better storage techniques are developed and technologies improve.
That's why i dismissed the article.
also.. its because old mex posted it i had to assume that it was off topic and unrelated.
we owe it to ourselves not to squander our lives on fairytales
Wait, what?
Fortnights -- how the fuck do they work?
Fortnights -- how the fuck do they work?
Environmentalist George Monbiot Says Greens Have Been Lying About Nuclear Power
And coal power, and oil, and natural gas, and DDT and pesticides and pretty much every other thing that has come out thier mouths including "and" and "the".
This response is beyond stupid. Feel free to ingest all the DDT you like and tell me how that goes for you. Also let me know how it feels to stand next to a smoke stack without industrial scrubbers and breath in the emissions from coal combustion.
The response is "beyond stupid" but all you can say in response to it is invective.
Try flyin' thru a windmill, mo'fukker!
Try flying thru a Nuclear Reactor ma fuka!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM8E-CogkYE
-signed F4.
So just because you can't drink DDT like coca cola envirnonmentalists haven't slandered an otherwise valuable chemical and costs millions of lives doing so. Yeah, that makes sense.
Seriously Doc, you are so stupid you have no idea how stupid you actually are. It is sad.
the overuse of DDT lead to the ban. but responsible DDT use would save lives in regions w malaria.
Yes it would. But you can't have a reasonable conversation with most environmentalists. A reasonable conversation would involve looking at the benefits of the product and ways to use it while limiting the damage. We didn't get to have that conversation and instead just banned it because it made western greens feel better.
You did it!! a rational non extreme thought (almost). That's exactly what should have been done with the product, conduct a life cycle assessment, determine the impacts, weight the benefits vs the costs of PROPERLY using the product (also have to include the idiots that will improperly use the product as a cost) then allow its use and price it appropriately
Your initial comment was that environmentalists lie about EVERYTHING. That statement is incredibly stupid - I stand by my assertation.
There were NO harmful effects EVER from DDT is what you are implying. That's wrong. You also seem to imply that the use of DDT is the ONLY way to have saved millions of lives. Also wrong. Mosquito nets are a far less environmentally negative product that provides the same protection from malaria.
You need to understand there are alternatives. Every one of your statements is full of extremes, try to be rational in a post.
The eco-nazis lie often enough that it's just more practical to not believe anything they say. Same policy that most libertarians have adopted in regards to politicians.
FWIW - Effective mosquito netting is usually impregnated with DDT.
Which is nowhere near as effective as draining swamps and poisoning those little fuckers to death.
Mosquito nets are a far less environmentally negative product that provides the same protection from malaria.
Um, what? Your first chance to add some actual science to the post, ideally with a reference of some type, and you make the claim that mosquito nets provide the same level of protection as DDT?
Do you have any idea how ridiculous this sounds? At all?
Think about it. Am I going to walk around all day wearing a FUCKING MOSQUITO NET?
Jesus.
Think about it. Am I going to walk around all day wearing a FUCKING MOSQUITO NET?
EMBRACE. THE. BURKA.
Ugh...NOW that you mention it, I remember that I saw a dress made out of mosquito netting on TV a few years back on some fashion show.
Personal Bug spray. and yes mosquito nets do work very effectively for you to use when sleeping under them.
But why should you be forced to have to spray yourself when the government can subsidize spending millions on spraying entire areas? Right my libretarian friend?
Personal Bug spray. and yes mosquito nets do work very effectively for you to use when sleeping under them.
Listen Doc, you said that nets were just as good as DDT. And let me remind you that you said this after lecturing John on how one shouldn't be extreme in their statements. Apparently hypocrisy is something they haven't covered at your university yet. I would suggest speeding up that class to an earlier date.
But then to compound your own hypocritical stupidity, you add this gem-
"and yes mosquito nets do work very effectively for you to use when sleeping under them."
Good thing that all anyone in Africa does is FUCKING SLEEP ALL DAY LONG.
The stupid, it burns!
Good thing the mosquitos with malaria aren't usually out during the day.. ahhh the ignorance, it burns.
Doc,
"Aren't usually"?
You hear that Africa? You're saved! Just don't go outside at night anymore and you'll never get malaria!
The Immortal Doc. S has spoken!!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16646332
There's some hard numbers for you. now give me the effectiveness of DDT. 65% reduction seems pretty damn good
OK.
In Sri Lanka, DDT usage reduced cases of malaria from about 3 million per year before spraying to just 29 in 1964.
Harrison, Gordon A (1978). Mosquitoes, Malaria, and Man: A History of the Hostilities Since 1880.
That's a bit better than 65%, wouldn't you say?
That's definately a pretty good improvement. I don't have access to the entire book so I don't know the context of that statement, but I would then ask the following:
And there were no unintended consequences as a result of the sprayings? Did the sprayings ever have to be repeated? What was the cost of the sprayings? What are the costs of the alternatives to DDT ( Ie. bugspray at day net at night?)
I still don't feel that my statement of the effectiveness of mosquito nets and ddt was extreme but i understand the point you are making. If the only criteria for the effectiveness of DDT vs. alternatives is human mortality then it seems DDT is more effective. However I would want to know the answer to the questions I posed above before saying DDT is the only solution.
Thanks for the info.
Also- I appreciate and respect that approach alot more than saying "LOLZ UR SO FCKN STOOPID" Supporting with facts makes it a lot easier for me to see the validity of what you say, and thus changes my position accordingly.
And there were no unintended consequences as a result of the sprayings?
I'm sure there were, but in comparison to DYING FROM MALARIA it was a reasonable cost.
Did the sprayings ever have to be repeated? What was the cost of the sprayings? What are the costs of the alternatives to DDT ( Ie. bugspray at day net at night?)
Funny you should mention that. Sri Lanka stopped using DDT in 1968 becuase they thought it was too expensive, and malaria cases shot back up to 600,000. How much are 600,000 lives worth to you? In terms of the Sri Lankan economy, it was worth a lot.
I still don't feel that my statement of the effectiveness of mosquito nets and ddt was extreme but i understand the point you are making.
You said "Mosquito nets are a far less environmentally negative product that provides the same protection from malaria". This statement is WRONG. PERIOD. You attempted to justify it with some sources, which I appreciate, but it was still WRONG.
The problem here is that you lectured John about how wrong it is to make extreme statements, and then you went ahead and ignored your own lecture.
That makes you sound kinda dickish, honestly.
The reality is that DDT and Malaria is a classic example of environmentalism run amok which effectively condemned tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of innocent people to a horrible painful death that we here in our own country all but eliminated several decades ago.
You should probably think about that before you go running your mouth again.
Ok if you want to play that game, then my statements actually correct. If you stay in a mosquito net 100% of the time you wont get malaria, so actually it's more effective than DDT spraying as you said that 29 people still died from malaria after DDT sprayings. it's also done at a much larger cost.
And also, 600,000 lives is worth a lot to me. Hundreds of millions of lives are worth a lot to me. This is why after I finished my PhD I passed up incredibly lucrative offers from industry to continue to do research on preventing and mitigating the effects of climate change on those most at risk.
Don't give me a lecture on compassion while its people in areas like that where my research is most important.
"If you stay in a mosquito net 100% of the time"
So you've learned nothing. Oh well, I tried.
Remember you said this earlier in the thread- "Every one of your statements is full of extremes, try to be rational in a post."
Hypocrisy:an unconscious self-contradiction: a state of incongruence between one's professed beliefs and feelings and one's actual beliefs and feelings, or an application of a criticism to others that one does not apply to oneself.
There, I saved you a whole semester.
You're welcome.
I completely understand your point, but you seem to be missing your own. I started to copy and paste all the ridiculous extreme statements you said in the above posts but realized it would be counterproductive.
My proposal is this: There are alternatives to DDT that can be more cost effective with less severe unintended consequences. I also stated that extreme generalizations aren't a good way to make a point.
Your counter is this: DDT is incredibly effective at mitigating malaria, take for example sri lanka where it was nearly eliminated. However DDT use stopped in sri lanka because it was cost prohibitive and due to this 600,000 died. Also telling people to not always go to the extreme makes you a dick.
See. I understand your point. DDT was good at what it does. But you didn't even begin to consider my point which is why we're still at where we are - you calling me a dick and a hypocrit, and me thinking that DDT wasn't even the point of my initial reply to the Original poster so why did this cluster fuck crusade degenerate to this point.
Always yours
Wow Doc.
Just. Wow.
I started to copy and paste all the ridiculous extreme statements you said in the above posts but realized it would be counterproductive.
Funny, I read my posts. Every "ridiculous extreme statement" I made was a quote from you, in the hopes that you'd see why your ridiculous extreme statements were ridiculous extreme statements.
And I hoped you see this because you accused John (fairly, I might add) of making an ridiculous extreme statement about environmentalists.
Not all of them are vicious scumbags who through their own self-inflated ignorance prevented DDT use from eliminating malaria in third world. Not all of them are the assholes depicted in the movie Mine Your Own Business. Not all of them were responsible for pushing idiot politicians to subsidize ethanol which is causing people to starve to death. Not all of them are ignorant of the fact that GMO crops are necessary to feed the world.
But a lot of them are. And THAT is not a ridiculous extreme statement.
Unfortunately, on forums like these, you can get so caught up in trying to make your point, that you forget what your initial point even was. My initial respose to john was actually my 5th response to him regarding the extremity and ignorance of his posts, which is why i apparently (regretfully) spoke incorrectly about mosquito nets being AS effective as ddt.
I would say that generally my posts are faily rational and not to one extreme or the other. But when you're fighting an up hill battle against so many closed minded individuals it can eventually get frusterating.
I take your point, I understand your point, but if u look at 99% of my posts you will se that I am FAR from a hypocrit.
Also I appreciate that you admit that not ALL environmentally minded indivduals are scumbags as you put it. As i state all the time, it's just unfortunately that its these extremists get all of the media attention, and thats because its more deemed more "interesting and newsworthy" while us rational environmentalists sit back and say jesus those people are fucking idiots. But its the same thing for all political and religious affiliations. The nut jobs get the attention while the rational ones sit in the background shaking their heads.
Your points downthread:
1) Don't breathe flue gas without "industrial scrubbers."
2) Don't breathe the flue gas because of the low O2, not because of the SO2 which really isn't very toxic anyways.
That's not "fairly rational."
I feel like my initial statement of feel free to stand next to the effluent of a smokestack and see how it feels is pretty rational for his claim that enviros lie about everything including coal ng etc.
There's a whole lot of fun stuff that comes outta there, obviusly you'd be killed by the FG far before the PM had an effect so the need for including scrubbers in the comment was moot.
guess it depends how close you're standing to determine the means of which u want to succumb.
Edit: meant to say guess John can decide how close he's standing to determine through which means he wants to succumb. Itchy trigger finger wins again.
Your original point was clearly referencing environmental regulations (DDT ban and 1990 Clean Air Act). If you didn't include the scrubbers, all you'd be saying is "Burning stuff is bad because you can't breathe the combustion products." That's exactly the kind of luddite nonsense John is accusing environmentalists of.
"guess it depends how close you're standing to determine the means of which u want to succumb."
No. SO2 isn't particularly dangerous (or a particulate btw) until it's oxidized in the atmosphere. Even then, the primary (really the only) concern is acid rain, not H2SO4 aerosol respiration.
VOC 0.0109
CO 0.2091
NOx 1.1000
PM10 0.0795
PM2.5 0.0397
SOx 3.0707
CH4 0.0131
N2O 0.0115
CO2 1180
There's some more effluents from Coal fired power plants in g/kWh (From GREET). I like this game. And yes im more than aware that SOx isn't a form of pm.
And no my point to john was that not every environmental cause is a bad one full of lies.
I wrote a long post in which I was mostly nice but the squirrels ate it.
What the fuck does this have to do with scrubbers? Just listing random combustion product concentration from some undisclosed location within a random unit is exactly the luddite nonsense that I said you're alternative sentence would have been. Instead of just admitting your original formulation was ill-considered (even though I know it was ignorant), you've doubled down on the dumb.
"And yes im more than aware that SOx isn't a form of pm."
It's absolutely fascinating how you can both contradict yourself and reveal your ignorance in every sentence. SO3 is usually a particulate in the stack, especially after a wet scrubber.
"And no my point to john was that not every environmental cause is a bad one full of lies."
Stupidity, lies, it's hard to tell the difference.
I guess I should have clarified, I know that SOx isn't a form of PM after initial combustion, HOWEVER, it is transformed to a PM before final release.
I've also admitted elsewhere that my initial statement to john was a kneejerk reaction because it was the 5th post in a row of his where he said something completely extreme and off base. unfortunately after the 5th time of trying to explain something to him i lost a little tact.
The releases were from GREET (industrial averages), I was going to include the link that I included in my post down the line about the human health effects of each one of the releases but I got tired of searching for it.
EC (European Commission). 2003. External Costs: Research Results on Socio-Environmental
Damages Due to Electricity and Transport. EUR 20198. Luxembourg: Office for Official
Publications of the European Communities [online]. Available: http://ec.europaeu/research/en.....rne_en.pdf
The report has a table that details the effects of each release.
...they mostly come out at night.
Mostly.
"Your initial comment was that environmentalists lie about EVERYTHING. That statement is incredibly stupid - I stand by my assertion."
It was probably hyperbole. It's a rhetorical technique. Five-year-olds can learn to recognise it.
"Also let me know how it feels to stand next to a smoke stack without industrial scrubbers and breath in the emissions from coal combustion."
LOL You really have no idea what you're talking about.
you act as if thats uncommon on these boards. I'm fairly knowledgable about the coal combustion process in power plants.
but awful at spelling and typing apparently
Why is standing under anything emitting above the boundary layer especially dangerous?
Do you actually know what "industrial scrubbers" are and when they're needed?
by standing next to a smoke stack i was implying at the same level as the release point. I apologize I should have said standing with your face over the point source of the emissions.
You'd suffocate long before the SO2 became toxic. Again, do you actually know what "industrial scrubbers" are and when they're needed?
thank you for making my point.
What the fuck does lack of oxygen have do with FGD?
Not that anyone is reading this anymore, but what is it about a PhD that renders the recipient incapable anymore of saying the phrases, "I Don't Know" or "I was wrong; thanks for clearing that up."?
(Come to think of it, getting a J.D. is about as bad in that regard too.)
He's a climate scientist. I don't understand why you are expecting any sort of intellectual honesty.
Hey, you drink 300 glasses of water in a row and tell me that water can't be toxic, pal.
I enjoy watching the brown pelicans in Galveston Bay but I'd prefer children didn't die of malaria instead.
Unfortunately, Rachel Carson's work presented many false choices.
Truer words could not have been uttered by a living, breathing human.
Now, about that IPCC report that linked to a student's essay and a mountain climber's magazine...
But the glaciers will all be gone by 2035...no wait make that 2350...my bad.
FIFY
Just like every other claim made by the Environmental movement, George, you have to accept her word as a matter of faith. I mean, haven't you learned anything, yet?
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself--and you are
the easiest person to fool. So you have to be very careful about
that. After you've not fooled yourself, it's easy not to fool other
scientists. You just have to be honest in a conventional way after
that.
I would like to add something that's not essential to the science,
but something I kind of believe, which is that you should not fool
the layman when you're talking as a scientist. I am not trying to
tell you what to do about cheating on your wife, or fooling your
girlfriend, or something like that, when you're not trying to be
a scientist, but just trying to be an ordinary human being. We'll
leave those problems up to you and your rabbi. I'm talking about
a specific, extra type of integrity that is not lying, but bending
over backwards to show how you are maybe wrong, that you ought to
have when acting as a scientist. And this is our responsibility as
scientists, certainly to other scientists, and I think to laymen.
One example of the principle is this: If you've made up your mind
to test a theory, or you want to explain some idea, you should
always decide to publish it whichever way it comes out. If we only publish results of a certain kind, we can make the argument look
good. We must publish both kinds of results.
I say that's also important in giving certain types of government
advice. Supposing a senator asked you for advice about whether
drilling a hole should be done in his state; and you decide it
would be better in some other state. If you don't publish such a
result, it seems to me you're not giving scientific advice. You're
being used. If your answer happens to come out in the direction the
government or the politicians like, they can use it as an argument in their favor; if it comes out the other way, they don't publish it at all. That's not giving scientific advice.
Richard Feynman
It amazes me how depressingly prescent that speech was. He pretty much pegged every kind of junk science we practice today.
It amazes me how depressingly prescent that speech was. He pretty much pegged every kind of junk science we practice today.
No prognostication required John, since bullshitters were plying the same wares in Feynman's time.
He ended the speach by saying
So I have just one wish for you--the good luck to be somewhere
where you are free to maintain the kind of integrity I have
described, and where you do not feel forced by a need to maintain
your position in the organization, or financial support, or so on,
to lose your integrity. May you have that freedom.
I don't think he got his wish.
While im a huge fan of eliminating subsidies on all power, nuke plants need some sort of help. nuke power can never be competitive when environazi's can file endless suits and injunctions stays and protests preventing or prolonging the construction period, inflating costs and risk.
oh ya and gov still has that restriction on nuke fuel reprocessing which would result in the potential recapture of 95% of spent fuel.
Nuke plants wouldn't be cost effective in a laissez faire market, because the liability insurance and the overhead would likely be too high for a business owner to risk without subsidies. Risk should not be socialized via phony corporate liability protections, especially in the case of a technology that, if not implemented correctly, can endanger innumerable lives and properties. That doesn't mean it should be illegal, just that the price for nuclear is incredibly low, even with heavy regulations, due to the extent of subsidization and socialized risk. It would in no way be considered the primary energy source in a free market.
There was plenty of junk science around when Feynman wrote that too.
Feynman is amazing. I've been watching a bunch of his less technical lectures recently. He really gets what science is and really, genuinely just wants to know how the world works. Sadly, a lot of people (even many scientists it would seem) don't understand what science is or what it attempts to do. Feynman was one of the best at explaining that.
For any honest scientist with any integrity, being proven wrong should be the best thing that could happen to you.
Yes, let's. The real economics may in the end show that nuclear energy is just as chimeric as solar and wind; maybe less irrational but not as economical as coal, oil or gas - maybe. However, like Mombiot said, we owe it to ourselves to find out the truth without relying on fantasy, either from one side of the debate or the other.
As far as liability is concerned...
Are coal plants fully liable for coal mining accidents and for environmental pollution near coal plants and mines?
To make a fair test, the liability for the occasional rare nuclear accident should be match up against the more frequent pervasive damage done by coal. I'd even be willing to leave out CO2, just charge them for other contaminants.
Re: Hazel Meade,
If a person can prove damages, then yes.
If I pee on my own pool, can somebody just say he or she was damaged because I contaminated a "water source"? He or she has to show proof of actual damage, not simply implied or suggested damage. Same in the case of coal burning plants: Unless a person can prove damages, then any discussion about damages is academic.
In that case, the liability for nuclear should be based on actual risks of cancer, and not (say) the expense of evacuating an area, out of irrational fear, in the event of an accident, or banning consumption of marginally radioactive water.
Let's let people prove that the nuclear accident objectively harmed them by increasing their cancer rates. And not force them to cover damages due to fear of radiation, rather than the radiation itself.
Ok with that?
Sadly, there have been many court cases where things have been "proven" in a court of law that had no scientific legitimacy and did not result in justice.
I'm ok with that as long as every energy industry is subject to the same degree of unscientific bias.
You continue to say that these damages can't be proven yet refuse to look at the truth of the matter. I emplore you to read the National Academy of Sciences report on the Hidden costs of energy production.
It shows a very clearly displayed and sound method for accounting for the hidden costs associated with all energy types. It shows that coal damage on average is an additional 3.2 cents per kilowat hour of which 85% of the damage is resultant from premature human morality (NOTE: THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE ANY DAMAGES DUE TO CLIMATE CHANGE). This is also the national average, some plants produced much higher costs per kwh (the highest $.42 per kwh located near pittsburgh)
It also states that the hidden cost of NG is about .16 cents / kwh, much lower than coal.
available at nap.edu titled "The Hidden Costs of Energy Production Unpriced Consequences." 2010.
You can choose your own beliefs, but not your own facts.
What is "premature human morality"?
mortality. clearly a typo.
and regretfully, i can't think of a witty joke using premature human morality at the moment, but im sure there's one out there.
Re: Doc S,
You should familiarize yourself with some basic economics before you spew out such assertions as "hidden cost," Doc S.
Just because the NAS pretended to calculate a cost that comes from NO market exchange does not mean a) they did not waste their time and b) they are not making you or me waste our time.
I've read such reports and, trust me, working from these "assume a can opener" canards is not the way to start an argument.
No, it does not show such a thing, it assumes a direct correlation between coal firing and human mortality, to then calculate the cost.
Again, "assume a can opener."
Please, don't waste my time.
all you said is "it's wrong because i want it to be wrong"
Re: Doc S,
Right. Never mind the "assume a can opener" canard YOU want to push. I am the one making things up, apparently...
You DONT NEED to assume a can opener. The facts are clear and transparent and there is an incredibly obvious cause effect relationship.
There are no economic models with unrealistic or absurd expectations. It's an incredibly simple statistical analysis.
There is no such thing as a hidden cost.
Also, because I havent done it in a long while:
COASE COASE COASE COASE COASE COASE
COASE COASE COASE COASE COASE COASE
COASE COASE COASE COASE COASE COASE
COASE COASE COASE COASE COASE COASE
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Re: Doc S,
No truer words could be said, except you do not take heed of them.
I will have to give you a short-short class in economics.
First: Value is subjective. People value things in different ways.
Second: People value things at the margin, that is, a person may value more one thing if he has one than if he had 100 of them.
Third: Cost is best alternative forgone.
When I buy a shirt, it did not "cost" me $12.00 on sale, that is the PRICE. I exchanged $12.00 for a shirt, I gained a shirt. I valued the shirt more than the $12.00.
Instead, the cost of buying the shirt may have been, perhaps, a movie ticket, if going to the movies was one of the choices I was contemplating. That is cost.
That means that the PRICE of a thing is based on the exchange made by a buyer and a seller, where buyer obtains something he valued more for something he valued less, and the seller obtained something that he valued more for something he valued less. The "cost" (or price) of electricity is thus EXACTLY the dollars the buyer exchanged in order to obtain it. There are thus NO hidden costs - the opportunity cost of the buyer is whatever next best thing he chose NOT to obtain in favor of a unit of electricity.
What the NAS report is talking about is financial costs. That has NOTHING to do with economics (i.e. REALITY,) it is merely an accounting exercise.
When pollution becomes a concern, buyers will indicate this through CHOICE by buying from those suppliers that offer something they value more, presumably "cleaner" energy. If this does NOT happen, it means that buyers value MORE the electricity, at the margin, than the supposed negative effects of pollution; in other words, buyers ALREDY TOOK INTO ACCOUNT those negative effects when pricing electricity.
What the NAS report does is thus no more scientific than analyzing a Picasso.
So, please, stop wasting people's time with this spurious "economic cost calculations" made by people with NO CLUE of how economics works.
https://mises.org/journals/jls/2_4/2_4_4.pdf
my phd minor was in economics, i gave this lecture already in another thread. Also feel free to check the list of authors on that report that you've apparently read, theres about 30+ economists on it - all from major accredited universities.
thanks for the lecture mex.
in other words, buyers ALREDY TOOK INTO ACCOUNT those negative effects when pricing electricity.
Buyers can't take into account information they don't have...you know this. The negative effects being discussed are "hidden" in the energy production cycle as they are often far removed from the individuals who consume the energy. They can be displaced by both distance and time.
But, again, you know that.
One of the primary mechanism environmentalism has used to address "hidden" costs is through education. Informing people about these displaced costs so that the will incorporate them into their decision making process and get those "hidden" negative effects of pollution priced in the exchange. It is one of the reasons that the Monbiot article was written. He recognizes, as do many environmentalists, that misinformation and scare tactics are counter-productive in the long run, even if they can be used as a political tactic. As in any political movement there is often a struggle between those willing to distort in order to gain a tactical advantage, and those that want to keep the discussion fact-based and honest.
Hey, get your logic and reason out of here and quit WASTING HIS TIME. He know's everything there is to know about econ and environmental econ and that's all there is to it.
so just take his free econ lesson regardless of how irrelevant it is to the point at hand and remember its old mex.
I'm not sure this is true, OM. 99 out of 100 people could have taken pollution into account when deciding to purchase energy from X, but that doesn't mean the one-hundredth person won't get cancer caused by the pollution from X. This is a genuine damage to the one-hundredth person - shouldn't libertarians support restitution from X?
see my comment below so you can actually understand the real costs of the associated energy production.
Edit: above not below. fail.
Re: Doc S,
Don't waste anybody's time, Doc S. Assuming a direct correlation between coal firing and human mortality to THEN calculate the "true cost" energy is like assuming a relationship between masturbation and palm hair-growth to then calculate the cost of shaving.
DON'T WASTE MY TIME!
By your standard, it would seem to be practically impossible to determine a link between coal burning and human mortality. Is there anything short of halting all coal burning for a generation so we could have a good control that would provide evidence of such an effect to your satisfaction?
Re: Zeb,
Can you determine a link? How would you go about it? Don't just assume it's happening.
Consider the source, but the Environmental Defense Fund claims:
- Fine particle pollution from U.S. power plants cuts short the lives of nearly 24,000 people each year (by an average of 14 years), including 2,800 from lung cancer.
- Power plant pollution is responsible for 38,200 non-fatal heart attacks per year.
- The elderly, children, and those with respiratory disease are most severely affected by fine particle pollution.
- People who live in metropolitan areas near coal-fired plants (pollution hot spots) are most acutely affected by toxic emissions ? death rates in these areas are much higher than areas with few or no coal-fired plants.
http://www.edf.org/article.cfm?contentID=5433
Assuming these numbers are accurate, should the victims pay for these impacts? That doesn't seem very libertarian, considering the shared property of the air and water is being polluted and finds its way onto our own.
I've explained to him the effects and how they were calculcated, he said show me the report thats bullshit. I showed him the report, and he said it didn't mean anything and they didn't knwo what they were doing. He begs to be shown causation and yet refuses to open his mind long enough to let any thing in.
Maybe he's going senile already.
I've explained to him the effects and how they were calculcated, he said show me the report thats bullshit. I showed him the report, and he said it didn't mean anything and they didn't knwo what they were doing.
That's old mex's mo.
He's great on theory but falls apart by trying to fit reality to his theories.
Assuming these numbers are accurate...
There's your first problem. Judging by the smoking data, even people who drank heavily and died of cirrhosis of the liver can be added to the 'smoking deaths' pile if they smoked at some point in their lives.
"Particulate matter": Is there a correction for Diesel, dust, mold in damp climates, working history (construction or factory work), living environment (Weekly BBQ's), local wind patterns and any of a million other possible complications?
38,200 Non-Fatal heart attacks per year? Really? That's an amazingly specific calculation, given that eating and exercise habits have also shown to affect cardiac health.
There are so many assumptions about causation in studies like these that, using a similar level of assumption, one could prove just about anything, about anything, that they desired.
The question becomes, at some point, why do they desire this proof?
Providing references from the environmental defense fund is like saying Iran is the epitome of a democratic country. The EDF publishes this propaganda to solicit donations from tree-huggers who have no understanding of chemistry, biology, physics or any other science.
Yeah, not a big EDF fan, prefer more credible sources like the NAS hidden cost of energy report.
Agreed about the EDF, thus the caveat - it was just the first stats I happened to come across. I'm sure there is a correlation between coal emissions and increased cancer risk, but of course there are many contributing factors to such. That doesn't mean that a specific factory should not be liable if their environmental impact on property and health in the surrounding area contributes to damages, and I have yet to see a compelling libertarian means of enforcing property rights in such cases. I tend to believe if there is a conflict between two peoples' rights (in this case the factory's right to free use of its property vs. their neighbors' property rights) the non-actor's rights take precedence. Thus the factory should be forced to compensate those impacted for health an property damage.
That doesn't mean that a specific factory should not be liable if their environmental impact on property and health in the surrounding area contributes to damages,
You're talking information evaluation far beyond what is even conceptually possible at this point and time. Correcting for genetic and environmental factors, with the current depth of understanding of those two extraordinarily complicated processes, is (at this point in time), for all in tents and porpoises, completely impossible.
And yet you propose to force compensation on one party by government order in favor of another party, based on a calculation of damage contributions that is subjectively and objectively impossible?
How about the idea that we are burning coal and life expectancy has gone up. From 80s bumper sticker "Coal is NOT a four letter word"
Thats a great idea, but im pretty sure that the burning of coal isnt the only reason life expectancy has gone up. And its actually lower around areas with numerous our high pollutiong coal power plants. Yes those numbers are also broken down in the NAS report.
Also Sweden and Norway both have higher life expectancy's than the US and they dont burn any coal.
damn i cant spell or proofread at all today.
im pretty sure that the burning of coal isnt the only reason life expectancy has gone up.
Oh, so there are 'other factors' now?
You're like Smokey the Bear - Only You seem to be able to decide when correlation and causation are allowed to be conflated.
I'm sure our great scientific minds have accounted for every possible permutation. After all, they have letters at the end of their name.
You wouldn't catch such people fucking up, say, Strategic Policy Outlooks for the Middle East, Economic Data regarding the economy, WMD data (some where there is none & none where there is some), AGW predictions (Hurricanes) etc.
@ Old Mexican
Don't waste anybody's time, Doc S. Assuming a direct correlation between coal firing and human mortality to THEN calculate the "true cost" energy is like assuming a relationship between masturbation and palm hair-growth to then calculate the cost of shaving.
And yet your anti nuclear bias is an even more egregious case of circular logic masturbation.
So much fun to watch them eat their own!
Environmentalists always lie, the book "Silent Spring" is a lie, yet she's a hero of the treehugger movement and the liberal media as well.
I hate the environazis, I actually cheer whenever there's an evironmental disaster. F U, Planet! F. U. Mother nature! Jesus, sometimes I want to go to Africa just to eat endangered species.
US FLAG TOO BIG TO FLY IN MICHIGAN.
http://libertarians4freedom.bl.....ly-in.html
any sources to back up your statements or just the usual uncontrollable spewing onto the keyboard like usual?
I write what I write based on things I've read. There's a ton of information online about how Silent Spring is a sham, so do your own fucking research instead of asking me to be your secretary. I'll use sources in my blog, but not here.
New here ain't 'cha?
Just type "Silent Spring" or "Environmentalists" into Reason's search box and see what floods out.
My question was more aimed at the "enviornmentalists ALWAYS lie" portion than the silent spring portion. Greg just likes to be an extremist and voice seemingly non sequitor thought sequences in his blind rage.
"IM OLE GREEGGGGG!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLBvo8ExTtE
I use hyperbole and generalizations because it saves time. Happy?
I appreciate the honesty although i don't support the tactic! Fair enough, at least you admit it.
Greg Smith's mission in life seems to be to prove that he is a bigger asshole than everyone else by talking through it.
"Did I ever tell you about the man who taught his asshole to talk? His whole abdomen would move up and down you dig farting out the words. It was unlike anything I ever heard."
Yeah yeah yeah, instead of proving me wrong you simply call me an asshole. Real smart, Zebrahead.
I wish nothing save misfortune on GREG SMITH and his bootlicking blog, but he is right on Silent Spring:
http://reason.com/archives/200.....ring-at-40
This in particular is pretty indefensible by anyone:
To bolster her case for the dangers of DDT, Carson improperly cited cases of acute exposures to the chemical as proof of its cancer-causing ability. For example, she told the story of a woman who sprayed DDT for spiders in her basement and died a month later of leukemia. In another case, a man sprayed his office for cockroaches and a few days later was diagnosed with aplastic anemia.
Oh, yeah. Silent Spring is pseudo-scientific crap. The glee over environmental catastrophes and extinct species is more the focus of my loathing of Grego today.
Zeb, would you support farming elephants, lions, and other endangered species? Because that's the only way an animal won't be endangered! What I oppose is the environmental fundamentalism as displayed in Earth Day celebrations and tax breaks for people who drives hybrids.
Doc, the basic argument against Silent Spring boils down to the idea that, while DDT spraying was bad, for some nations such as Thailand, not spraying DDT has killed more by malaria than spraying with DDT would cause.
Also, all the good bug spray has DDT, as anyone who has ever been to Maine in the summer can tell you.
But "[s]he has received 21 honorary degrees and scores of awards, and was nominated for a Nobel peace prize." She can't be wrong!
Say, I'd like an honorary PhD. In something interesting, like physics. Or, really, anything, as the honor of being the first commenter awarded an honorary degree would be adequate.
Hollywood Upstairs Physics College does hereby award Pro Liberate an honorary degree with all due honor and distinction in Physics. Let us all congratulate Dr. Liberate on his lifetime achievements.
I'm guessing her honarary degrees are in things like "Social Justice Studies", and her awards are things like "The GreenPeace Annual Media Activism Lifetime Acheivement Award".
Honorary degrees are not "in anything". They are simply awarded by institutions using standards they set for themselves. They have been awarded for everything from making some outstanding breakthrough in some field to donating a couple of mil to the school.
That said, they are supposed to be awarded for some outstanding achievement. I think it's a fairly safe bet that any institution that has awarded Helen Caldicott an honorary degree has a decidedly pronounced leftwing bent and is rewarding her for her politics rather than any achievement. She would certainly not be the first person thus "honored".
The most common honorary degree is the Doctor of Laws. If you see someone with an LlD after his or her name it is more than likely a honoray degree, although some institutions in other countries award the LLD as the highest academic degree in law.
There is also a Doctor of Science degree which is always an honorary degree, but it is reservrd for outstanding contributions or achievements in the field of science.
From Wikipedia:
I know that, but I don't want a fake degree. I want a real one to honor my achievements in commenting. Thus, the PhD in Physics.
Here you go, "Dr." ProGlib- one honorary Ph.D. in Psychics coming up.
Wow, will this let me talk to the dead? Because I have a few questions.
OMG, she was NOMINATED for a Nobel Peace prize! That can't happen to anyone who isn't credible right?
Rush Limbaugh has been nominated for a Nobel Prize, I believe.
So was George Bush, IIANM.
None of those MFers won though!
International prize bitchez!
Even after the Japan thing, I'm still pro-nuke power.
As you should be, its the safest short and long term energy investment.
short nuclear? No, I think the market has already reacted and corrected. You missed your chance.
guess it depends on your definition of short term, i think of it as 5-10 years.
but are u pro-onsite storage? and are u pro-huge decommissioning costs?
If the fucktard ban on reprocessing was lifted and modern nuke tech was used, then about 98% of your concerns would become moot.
Scare tactics and demonization. It's all the Left has. That and those really cool big papier mache heads.
And what do you claim to have? The divine hand of God guiding you towards the "facts" of your choosing? Well not actually your choosing, but what the talking heads tell you to think?
AGain because everyone who disagrees with you must be a fundementalists Christian. There are just so many of those on this board I have to tell you. Wow, the trolls are out today.
No not at all. He just legitametely is and makes it clear on the majority of his posts. Once again jumping to an extreme conclusion with little evidence - you're good at that.
Um, Monbiot seems to be on the left, yet he is standing up for scientific integrity (at least on one issue).
I really wish people on here would stop with the "all liberals are dumb and dishonest" crap. Sure, some are, but saying that is about as smart as "all libertarians are just Republicans who smoke pot".
As even a blind squirrel finds the occasional acorn, even a Moonbat occasionally flies into the truth.
Yeah, but considering how the rest of the Moonbats will turn on those who go heretic, a Moonbat flying into the truth will find out that the light of knowledge is really just a bug zapper!
So, Ann Coulter is right? Radiation is good for you?
Being Green is a religion like any other. They twist the data to fit the doxology. Just ask Galileo.
How many times do I have to post the J. Frank Parnell quote in a month?
Every single time. Let's do the whole exchange, shall we?
Maybe I should drive for a while...
What do you mean?
I thought that was the next line from the movie. Crap, I need a beer.
Otto: This is really a nice old car. Why don't you let me drive?
J. Frank Parnell: What do you mean?
Otto: Well I don't know. I mean. . .uh! Don't you feel funny?
J. Frank Parnell: Why should I feel funny? The two hemispheres are fundamentally at odds. Hemisphere, Hemisphere. You know it's strange. I do feel funny.
No beer is needed here!
See thats the kind of jumping to extremes that gets people into this shit in the first place. There's a difference between admitting the (unknowledgable) far left admitting nuclear isn't actually dangerous (thank God) and saying radiations great for you go stand by a reactor.
Yes believe it or not there is a mid ground. It's not great for you in huge doses, but you get plenty in your normal life thats more than bareable.
And if being green is a religion I would rather have my religion tell me to live sustainabley than to blow up people who disagreed with me or refuse to use contraceptives so the church can have more taxpayers. (aside yes im roman catholic and I still think half the shit the church preaches is stupid)
Nope. Ann Coulter is still a stupid fucking cunt.
"like"
""Nope. Ann Coulter is still a stupid fucking cunt.""
And she probably thinks Pripyat is a Russian dessert
I just caught myself. I was about to heap praise upon Monbiot for, you know, checking into the things he advocates. That's sad.
Yes, I read about Monbiot's conversion to nuclear last week. That was a very interesting event. I've been reading (occasionally) Monbiot's columns in the Guardian for years. It's always been quite frustrating to me that he never would support nuclear, despite an apparantly strong belief in the extreme dangers of climate change.
Moreover, Monbiot is on the radical left, and he's an activist, not a scientist. So when someone like him converts it signals a much more dramatic break than when James Lovelock does.
Exactly, theres a big difference between the educated green movement and tree hugging hippies.
The educated green movement has been a hostage of fearmongering lunatics for years, as far as nuclear power is concerned.
Unfortunately its the idiot extremists on all ends of the spectrum that get the media attention - because lunacy is a lot more profitable to report on than rational thought.
Too true. The media likes the dramatic story line, and hence will slaver over Japanese "suicide squads" and how the "Fukushima 50" are all going to die to save the world from a nuclear apocalypse.
Way more fun than reporting that none of them have even got radiation sickness.
It's the news that sells and its the consumers to blame. It's us who are way more apt to the link that says "OMG JAPANESE HEROS SAVE 1 BILLION WITH NO CHANCE TO SURVIVE" than the link that says "Workers attempting to fix power plants leaks, may or may not be harmful"
I blame the amygdala.
The educated green movement is like the jackalope.
In that both are far more believable and worthwhile than any nonsense post you've had?
It doesn't exist. There isn't a subject the green movement has been reasonable about for at least 20 years. Whenever they are caught lying or saying crazy things they always say "that isn't representative of the real green movement". But the real green movement whatever that is never seems to appear.
And you might try to make an actual argument if you are going to post on here. This is not Daily Kos. People actually think and disagree on here. Yelling invective and and fundie doesn't really cut it on here.
There are educated greens. They just don't have any influence over the popular green movement. It's the lunatics and fanatics that have activist followings. So it's not just that they should the loudest, it's that their louder shouting actually causes more people to hear them, and they actually suceed in shutting up the more reasonable people.
I fully support this site as a forum to share ideas, facts, and opinions. I, however, try to provide concrete evidence in what I present as a fact, or a distinction in what is my opinion. Your opinion is that "there is no educated green movement" but you state it as if it is a fact, when it's really your matter of opinion.
My point is that if you're going to say that thisis for actual arguements, support your assertations and BE OPEN MINDED about the other sides point of view. Otherwise its just a shouting match and nothing is accomplished.
It's funny because typically the beliefs people defend the most are those that they are most unsure of or uninformed upon, there's a great Cracked.com article on that that i'll try to dig up.
Is there some question about the exitence of Jackalopes that I am not aware of?
mummm...grilled jackalope w a tangy sw sauce.
Grilled?
That's dark HERESY!
YOU EAT THAT FUCKING JACKALOPE RAW LIKE A REAL MAN!
There may be educated greens, but the tree hugging hippies prevent the "movement" from being sensible. Just try actually building a solar generation facility in the desert and stringing power lines to a city and watch the lawyers hired by the tree hugging hippy organizations stop actual green projects in their tracks.
I am a staunch fiscal conservative but am liberally minded in terms of the environment. There's actually a lot of us out therebut we're sadly nestled in our ivory towers of academia engineering and econ. We're not the types to get all riled up and stand in front of bulldozers or throw acid on japanese boats - but sadly those appear to be the more effective ways to get the points across and thats why people are only exposed to the fringe of the true environmentally minded
those appear to be the more effective ways to get the points across
Which points? That dressing funky and engaging in "protests" against what are arguably primarily political opponents (no protests against "our" side - even if they do the same thing) will get you laid and quoted by the media?
The 'green' movement has accomplished actual good - Smog reduction, waterway pollution reduction, etc., but the problem isn't the idea of preserving the environment.
The problem is that those on the left have essentially hijacked something that is fairly commonsensical (clean water and air), and turned it into a device to extract funds under the guise of 'saving the planet'.
Until you lose that faction from your midst, don't expect too much cooperation - because you don't deserve it.
Im actually registered republican. If there were an available party that was fiscal conservative and somewhat socially liberal I would be their biggest endorser.
I'm a registered libertarian. You might try it sometime, because (with the exception of Ferret legalization) that's exactly what you're talking about.
I choose to vote for whoever I like, but the majors know they don't have me in their pocket.
He's just now discovering the lunacy of Helen Caldicott?
I recall her appearing on a radio show where she insisted to me (yeah, I used to be one of those!) that George Bush Senior was going to nuke Russia. Absolutely, positively, no doubt about it; he was going to nuke it.
Nuts.
And he would have, too, if he'd won a second term!!!
No, he would have if Caldicott hadn't called him on it and stopped it.
I guess that's what she'd say.
One of the most bizarre exchanges I've ever had in my life was with her.
Granted, I need to get out more...
"Let's completely eliminate subsidies to all energy production technologies."
And stifling and over burdensome regulation too.
Liquid Flouride Thorium Reactors forever!
Monbiot had a really positive article about nuclear power shortly after Japan, essentially saying that, if Japan is the worst-case scenario the developed world has to deal with, nuclear power is probably the best form of green energy. Definitely didn't expect it from him.
I expect to see the poor bastard excommunicated from the church of the Goddess, or else recant, Galileo style -- once he starts worrying about shit like "truth" or "scientific process", he's going to open up a can of worms (on any number of topics) that enviro pseudo-science would rather stay closed.
Yes, this response is apparantly his response to the wild freaking out of the greens over at the Guardian in response to his previous article.
You should read some of the vitriol. They can't bear it.
He can always find a job with the Kochs (if he hasn't already). From now on, every one who strays off the liberal reservation will be deemd to have been corrupted by Koch Money.
Ok. Seriously. This is George Monbiot we're talking about here. Who cares what he has to say about anything. Do I need to point out that he compares UNSCEAR to the IPCC as an authority? As if this were a positive thing.
He's a child. He runs to whatever 'authority' supports his pathetic worldview. So don't be taken in by his claim that he 'investigates' every claim he comes across.
Best just to ignore people like him. Unless, of course, he gets in your face on a personal level. In that case you should do the world a favor and just shoot him.
The next step is for George to look into WHY the greenies foster an undeserved hatred for nuclear power.
I wonder about that myself.
I can't think of a plausible reason outside of sheer paranoia about radiation.
I think that's a pretty easy one. People in general what radioactivity is or how it affects living things. They only know that it is bad and scary. And bombs. People encounter ash and smoke and chemicals and all of the bad things about other energy sources every day and have an intuitive understanding of what that means (even if that understanding is not completely factual sometimes), but nuclear stuff is total black magic to most people.
Tom Cruise, shut down the reactor with your witchcraft!
yeah, once agian, its just extremists being misinformed and latching onto things they want to believe. a sad reality of all political agendas.
...And the manfools piled rock on rocks, breaksie the unbreakable to burn for steam, tries them to cage the lightning bolt... ...and laughs at the Woodsie Lord. ...And when learns the Lord of this, He sends His beastesses [ed: Godzilla?] to the manfools... ...washes their filth away, breaks and burns the manfools.
Greens Have Been Lying About Nuclear Power
I find the "greens versus libertarians" meme endlessly odd. For a "movement" that is proud of its individualism, one that eschews the idea that "groups" can act or have opinions or make decisions, libertarians are amazingly willing to paint "environmentalists" or "greens" with a broad stroke and use the actions or opinions of an individual as representative of the movement itself. Ron has made a career out of this, of course, but the ease with which folks around here fall into that mode of thinking is impressive.
I saw the "me_ican" and i got all excited thinking that that old mex had actually opened up his view point and said something valuable. Then i double checked the name and realized it was just you.
Libertarians (both small l and big L) wouldn't give a truck-stop taco-shit about greenies if their insanity would stop acting and treating human life as if it worth less than dirt.
You must be thinking about the environmentalists who inhabit your head. Environmentalism has long since stopped being just about spotted owls. There's plenty in the way of human beings and human welfare at stake.
The million+ people who die from malaria and yellow fever each year would beg to differ.
Oh, I'm sooo sorry!
Nobody care about THOSE million+ people since they aren't the right color and don't live in the CIVILIZED world.
FUCK YOU GREENIES!
As someone said above DDT was stopped in other countries because it was cost prohibitive, not because of GREENIES. I haven't seen many cases of malaria in the US lately have you?
...AND the reason why it became cost prohibitive was because US manufacturers stopped making it due to greenie pressure!
When the world's leading manufacturer of a product quits making it, then the prices tend to rise accordingly!
Oh, and you also have to remember that the rich malaria free countries passed laws to curtail the import of food that was grown in countries that hadn't banned DDT!
The cost of using DDT wasn't just in the purchase but in the reduction in trade with Westerners!
Sounds like it was a great time for a new unregulated player to enter the market. Too bad I didn't live in one of those countries back then or I could have made a fortune.
But points duly noted.
You still could make a fortune, albeit in a SLIGHTLY different manner.
Europe and it's near complete ban on GMO crops has kept African farmers scared of using such resources since the EU is their biggest trading partner.
Greens overlap significantly with collectivists, socialists, command economy fans and other types uniformly hostile to individualism. And the vast majority of green policies would have to be implemented by government bodies.
Greens don't necessary have to be watermelons, but you scratch the surface and it seems like most of them are.
I don't scratch the surface as I found it's far more effective to employ the Gallagher Method and just bash that fucker open with a sledgehammer.
Greens overlap significantly with collectivists, socialists, command economy fans and other types uniformly hostile to individualism.
Except when they don't. Many "green" movement activities are decentralized, market-based, and aimed at changing government policies/regulations that harm the environment.
And the vast majority of green policies would have to be implemented by government bodies.
I think it is fair to say that the majority "policies" of any stripe would have to be implemented by government bodies since "policies" is typically just reduced form used to mean "government policies."
Greens don't necessary have to be watermelons, but you scratch the surface and it seems like most of them are.
Except when they are not.
apparently I don't like the articles "a" and "the."
Reduce, reuse, recycle.
Well, those are the ones excluded by saying "most."
Indivudualist greens? Bully for them. I wish that they'd come out of hiding and tell the other ones to shut up for awhile.
Re: Neu Mejican,
I believe you meant "changing government policies/regulations to protect the environment."
Which, by the way, is bullshit. Most regulations do not come from environmentalists, they come from industry lobbyists looking to stifle their competition, environmental regulations included.
Which, by the way, is bullshit. Most regulations do not come from environmentalists, they come from industry lobbyists looking to stifle their competition, environmental regulations included.
You know about many of these policies because environmentalists have been working against these kinds of policies for decades. Ethanol subsidies were widely condemned by "environmentalists" as one recent example. Removing environmentally harmful regulations (large or small) is a common approach in the movement. Greens support lifting of many zoning rules, removing requirements on builders to include parking spaces, for example.
Re: Neu Mejican,
Yes, VERY recent, as in "reality hit them like a ton of bricks." If there was one chimera the enviros liked before economic reality showed its ugly head was this "biofuel" stupidity.
Your lack of familiarity with the issue is showing.
Support for the development of green iofuels does not equal support for industry driven ethanol subsidies. Don't confuse Al Gore's confusion on the issue as an indicator of where most greens were one the issue.
Re: Neu Mejican,
I did not mention subsidies - you're making things up. I said that economics made it too obvious that ethanol was not economically or even environmentally viable. The greenies simply stopped supporting it because it made them look silly, not because of any special foresight on the matter.
Al Gore's legendary confusion about everything is not germaine to this discussion. I am talking about the enviros being in favor of ethanol before they were against it when it became just too obvious how stupid and silly the idea is:
http://www.pnas.org/content/103/30/11206.full
(Contributed by David Tilman, June 2, 2006)
So, to summarize: as per usual, your comment was off topic? Is that about right?
economics made it too obvious that ethanol was not economically or even environmentally viable.
Opposition to ethanol as a fuel replacement/carbon reduction scheme in the environmental movement (broad strokes) came about based on analysis of its costs and benefits to environmental goals, yes. The opinion on that (broad strokes) did wait until there was evidence one way or the other. As for support for the specific subsidies passed by congress at the behest of the corn industry, well, environmentalists were not against them until the policy was actually proposed. The general concept of support biofuel research does not equal support for a specific policy.
Re: Neu Mejican,
Let me see the thread... Hmmm, nope, it is on topic. You better fill up your prescription of Focalin.
So a comment that required this..."I did not mention subsidies"
In response to "Ethanol subsidies were..."
was on topic?
Ok. If you say so.
Ah yes, the No True Scotsman defense of the environmental movement.
Most of the non-collectivist greens are reviled and ostracized by the mainstream greens.
If there was a viable individualist-environmentalist movement, I doubt libertarians would oppose it. But I suspect most of the rest of the evironmentalists would brand it as a corporate astroturf project.
Re: Hazel Meade,
I wouldn't, by principle. I prefer a person that walks the walk and talks the talk and yet does not try to impose his genda throught the brute force of government, than a statist fuck dressed as a "greenie."
I agree, NM. It is strange. There is nothing libertarian or not about any type of fact about the world. What SF says is most of it, I think. Even if greens are right about everything, the policies they would propose to fix it are highly collectivist and are bound to turn a libertarian right off. The green movement has sadly become too entangled with the anti-corporate, "social justice" crowd and has lost most potential for credibility with libertarians for this reason. This is also sad for libertarianism, as you end up with lots of people on this side that reject scientific propositions because of who is proposing them. You can still be a libertarian even if global warming is real.
Re: Zeb,
That's not the end of it, and something collectivists and "group-rights" advocates like him do not get: The many proposed "solutions" purported to "protect" the environment end up not doing that, as most are attacks on capitalist activities.
In order to keep a cleaner environment, you NEED a free market that can send the signals to attract entrepreneurs and engineers to cater to consumer needs. Instead, the anti-capitalist stance of many an environmentalist hinders that process to the point where you cannot know which consumers want a cleaner environment and which group are content with their environment, instead advocating for top-down, centralized, one-size-fits-none policies which irremediably lead to waste and ineffective or unproductive capital consumption.
anti-capitalist stance of many an environmentalist hinders that process to the point where you cannot know which consumers want a cleaner environment and which group are content with their environment, instead advocating for top-down, centralized, one-size-fits-none policies which irremediably lead to waste and ineffective or unproductive capital consumption.
I think it is more accurate to say that the green movement is anti-corporation than "anti-capitalist." The primary target of greens in economic matters is the confluence of monied interests and government power. Reminds me a lot of another less than mainstream policital movement...what was its name...liber-somethingism.
There is a real anti-capitalist component. If libertarians propose full liability, property rights, and coasian bargaining as a solution for pollution, most greens are instantly suspicious that this idea is some sort of plot by sinister capitalists. The belief that free market are inherently linked to pollution is fundamental for most of them. Just try talking them out of it, they'll immediately dismiss you as a corporate tool.
Not so sure that is true. Lots of environmental actions use "Fair Trade" style, non-governmental, free-market approaches. There are also straight up capitalist approaches being used in the 3rd world that leverage micro-lending paired with cleaner energy technologies to change local usage patterns using local entrepreneurs as the distribution network. (two I know of are cleaner cook stoves and more efficient water pumps).
The entire "Fair Trade" movement is *premised* on the notion that "free trade" is NOT fair.
Also, those small microlending projects in the third world are nice and all, but hardly even on the radar for mainstream greens.
Hazel.
Not true. The Fair Trade movement is premised on the fact that the assumption that markets are dominated by corporations in cahoots with government and that although branded as "Free Trade" they anything but Free. The idea behind Fair Trade is to use cooperative of small players to overcome the barrier thrown up by monied governments at the behest of monied corporate interests.
A thumbnail, but that's the basics.
that was meant to be "the fact/assumption that..."
Re: Neu Mejican,
Actually, it accomplishes no such thing. It is simply a scheme to fleece clueless consumers and producers.
http://www.ipa.org.au/library/....._again.pdf
a scheme to fleece clueless consumers and producers.
Oh irony.
Maybe it should be more carefully regulated? (~_^)
Those microlending projects are often organized and run by mainstream environmental groups. Hardly off the radar.
the fact that the assumption that markets are dominated by corporations in cahoots with government .
What is it, a fact, or an assumption?
Anyway, the "Fair Trade" advocates do not actually advocate making trade any more genuinely free. If anything they want to make it even more unfair by allowing US markets to use labor and environmental regulations as an excuse to exclude foreign produce.
Their idea of "fairness" in trade is much like "social justice". It is a fairness that is based on the notion that the price of goods in the market needs to be adjusted upwards as a favor to poor farmers. Instead of letting price signals determine production.
If anything they want to make it even more unfair by allowing US markets to use labor and environmental regulations as an excuse to exclude foreign produce.
Where do you get that idea from?
What is it, a fact, or an assumption?
An assumed fact?
A premise?
Re: Neu Mejican,
I don't think they really mind the difference, Neu.
If only that were true...
The primary target of greens in economic matters is the confluence of monied interests and government power.
They are anti-union?
But seriously the biggest monied interest is the government itself. And they dont oppose it.
They are anti-union?
Sure...if the union were using its power to promote environmentally unfriendly policies or practices.
Are you bothered by libertarians' stereotyping of liberals, lefties, socialists, fascists, statists, conservatives, Randians, cosmotarians, cops, DMV workers, bible beaters, sci-fi nerds and deep-dish pizza lovers (to name a few)?
Or are you particularly hung up on "greens vs. libertarians"?
oops, should have been a response to Neu, not Zeb.
Chinny Chin Chin,
The tendency to lump others into groups while considering yourself as an independently acting individual is strong in most humans. While all the lumping you discuss is similarly ironic coming from staunch individualists, I find the "green versus libertarian" to be particularly strong as there seems to be an automatic conflation of "environmentalist" with "collectivist" even though the concepts are orthogonal. One is a goal the other a means. Environmentalist as a political movement is not means-based, it is goal directed. As such, libertarianism (a means-based, rather goal directed movement) should have no problem having a meaningful dialogue with the green movement. Instead, you get tired stereotyping and scapegoating.
As this thread has progressed another baffling oddity has arisen, the odd animosity towards Fair Trade among many libertarians...even though you often see from the libertarian side similar non-governmental certification programs proposed as alternatives to government regulations.
There are no Greens, only Watermelons.
Re: Doc S,
Don't waste anybody's time, Doc S. Assuming a direct correlation between coal firing and human mortality to THEN calculate the "true cost" energy is like assuming a relationship between masturbation and palm hair-growth to then calculate the cost of shaving.
DON'T WASTE MY TIME!
clearly the only time im wasting is mine trying to enlighten the mind of someone stuck 50 years in the past. I DONT KNOW WHAT WERE YELLING ABOUT.
Re: Doc S,
Your self-righteousness is unbecoming. Learn some basic economics before you try to "enlighten" me on subjects you know naught.
you apparently forget quickly as well.
From John
envirnonmentalists ... slandered an otherwise valuable chemical and costs millions of lives doing so.
In the same thread that he posts RF riffing on honesty.
Hmmm...
"Except when they don't. Many "green" movement activities are decentralized, market-based, and aimed at changing government policies/regulations that harm the environment."
Name one that doesn't somehow someway expand the power of the federal government.
Anyway, it is the green movement. Green with envy. That's all the green movement really is-- a way for the moochers to steal from the productive and feel all self-righteous about it.
Anyway, the Green Movement is mostly lies, not always. I mean, you gotta take some time out from deception to burn down a few construction sites, right?
Hey, remember when Gorbachev told all the Reds to become Greens, you know, for children? Good times.
No, but really. It's all about saving the precious environment. Seriously. Stop laughing. They care! Just look at all their bumper stickers!
The Left: "Save the Snail Darters, but abort all the children...for the children!"
I know a few people who have mentioned a number of times that they'd prefer that mankind die off because "we don't live in harmony with our environment" and other such hilarity.
Of course, this doesn't stop them from driving their own cars/etc. Voting for really expensive mass transit projects that massacre local small businesses during the years of construction, though? Oh, yeah.
idiocy and hypocricy are not relegated to only one portion of the political spectrum. Unfortunately it comes in all shapes, sizes, and beliefs.
Oh, well, that's, uh, kinda interesting.
Did you read the article?
Tman|4.6.11 @ 3:45PM|#
Listen Doc,[...]Apparently hypocrisy is something they haven't covered at your university yet."
Ah, let's make this clear. We have a hypocrite who claims the title of "Doc" in his/her screen name.
Now, a doctorate can be awarded in many fields, quite a which are totally worthless. Further, 'on the internet, no one knows you're a dog'.
So let's not award authority to anyone who simply takes the screen name of "Doc"; let's presume that the comments are worth exactly the same as those attributed to "Shitbag" and go on from there.
"...Quite a *few* of which..."
Damn edit feature!
The lack of the edit button is a cold hearted bitch. PhD is in Environmental Engineering focus in Econ - but whole hearedly support your statement and the point. I would be hard pressed to believe someone with those credentials would be wasting his time commenting here too, but i guess im a glutton for punishment.
Also hence forth i'll be changing my tag to Doc Sbag in your honor.
If coal burning plants are so horrible and supposedly cause all these respiratory problems and heart disease and premature deaths then how come this isn't reflected in the employees of the plants? I work for a utility with several coal burning plants and haven't seen this among the employees. I have also not heard of any cases of mercury poisoning from employees or the residents around the plants. These fears are overblown by scare mongering groups that are soliciting donations.
The average lifespan of Americans is higher than it's ever been and the overwhelming majority of premature deaths are caused by lifestyle choices- high fat diets, lack of exercise and smoking, not from pollution.
I've never said they're so horrible, I have said that coal power plants dont accurately relfect the costs of their production though. I think we need to expand the nuclear program, and focus MUCH MUCH more on energy conservation as it will have the biggest impact.
I actually think that coal fired power plays an incredibly important role, it should just be priced more appropriately to include the effects from its combustion. This includes considering the additional costs (human health miner's, human health due to emissions bioaccumulation, etc) and benefits (potential reduced demand on foreign energy, security and abundance of resource, etc)
There have however been many credible studies related to the health effects of the emission chemicals PM and SO2 resulting in decreased life expectancy, and hospital respiratory emissions, and benzene and diesel particles increasing cancer risks.
EC (European Commission). 2003. External Costs: Research Results on Socio-Environmental
Damages Due to Electricity and Transport. EUR 20198. Luxembourg: Office for Official
Publications of the European Communities [online]. Available: http://ec.europa.
eu/research/energy/pdf/externe_en.pdf [accessed May 6, 2009] gives a great overview of the effects of each release.
There's good studies for fine PM. For normal SO2 levels, no.
"I work for a utility with several coal burning plants and haven't seen this among the employees. I have also not heard of any cases of mercury poisoning from employees or the residents around the plants."
A couple things. Workers at the plant aren't getting anymore exposure than residents of the area unless they spend a lot of time near the FD fan. Also, mercury in flue gas is completely harmless. The danger is that some mercury gets into water, bacteria convert it to methyl mercury (really deadly), and that gets into the food supply.
ID fan
The mine operators are already paying the cost of the for the miners health effects in workers comp insurance and through other insurance programs. What "bioaccumulation" nonsense areyou talking about? Your studies probably are based on coal plants in eastern Europe that don't have the same emissions controls found in US plants. I have also not observed any supposed increase in cancer rates or hospital admissions in any of the towns surrounding my company's plants.
Unfortunately I can't send you the PDF to the report because it is copyrighted and you're supposed to pay for it, but the link to it is here.
http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=12794
The data for the costs is american data and taken from the power plants. The reference i gave you was eurpoean but that was only to look at the health effects of a bunch of substances, many of which are released in coal combustion.
Brief excerpt from the report:
For electricity generation from coal, the committee monetized effects on
human health, visibility of outdoor vistas, agriculture, forestry, and damages
to building materials associated with emissions of airborne particulate
matter (PM), sulfur dioxide (SO2) and oxides of nitrogen (NOx) from 406
coal-fired power plants in the United States, excluding Alaska and Hawaii.
More than 90% of monetized damages are associated with prematurehuman mortality, and approximately 85% of damages come from SO2
emissions, which are transformed into airborne PM. Aggregate damages
(unrelated to climate change) in 2005 were approximately $62 billion
(2007 U.S. dollars [USD]), or 3.2 cents per kilowatt hour (kWh) (weighting
each plant by the electricity it produces)
Source: NAS report on hidden costs of energy production.
It also has costs associated with NG, nuclear, wind, and solar. Definately an interesting report, but 500 pages long so buckle up.
They also have a really cool figure that shows the associated costs per powerplant, and the costliest ones are all by pittsburgh and the ohio river valley. It's incredible to look at, for example the most expensive one is in the pittsburgh area and its effects should result in an extra $.32 per kwh.
The majority of plants however fell far below that mark, with the 95 percentile being about $.12 per kwh and the 5 percentile at less than a cent per kwh.
Could you provide a link to evidence of premature death from SO2 exposure. Everything I've seen is from acute exposure in high pollution areas that aren't relevant to the US.
You are correct in saying that its mostly due to high pollution areas, however the ohio river valley due to its abundance of large, older coal fired power plants also experiences these issues.
I unfortunately am out of the country and don't have access to my reference library to give you more sources, but heres an excerpt:
Results: Anthropogenic O3 was associated with an estimated 0.7 ? 0.3 million respiratory mortalities (6.3 ? 3.0 million years of life lost) annually. Anthropogenic PM2.5 was associated with 3.5 ? 0.9 million cardiopulmonary and 220,000 ? 80,000 lung cancer mortalities (30 ? 7.6 million years of life lost) annually. Mortality estimates were reduced approximately 30% when we assumed low-concentration thresholds of 33.3 ppb for O3 and 5.8 ?g/m3 for PM2.5. These estimates were sensitive to concentration thresholds and concentration?mortality relationships, often by > 50%.
http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/art.....hp.0901220
Oh sorry I didn't address your question about bioaccumulation. short summary: mercury released from fossil fuel combustion, goes into rivers, 1st level food chain organisms absorb it in small amounts (algea, plankton), these get eaten by the thousands by second level food chain organisms (small fish) thus increasing its pressence in the small fish, big fish eat lots of small fish giving them even more mercury, then we eat the big fish giving us a nice dose of mercury.
It's why they tell women of child bearing age not to eat fish, and us to limit our consumption
heres a link to a bunch of fun epa reports on it:
http://www.epa.gov/pbt/pubs/aboutpbt.htm
I have yet to hear of a single case of mercury poisoning case in anyone who lives near a coal burning plant. Just because trace amounts of mercury can be found in a person's body doesn't mean that it's causing any effects. The warnings about not eating fish are primarily due to the EPA's overly cautious risk assessments. If mercury bioaccumulation in people is such a problem how come there aren't a bunch of senior citizens with mercury poisoning. Push your Green Peace crap on Huff Po. Come back after you learn some toxicology.