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Politics

A War We Don't Need

Why is America intervening in a Libyan civil war?

David Harsanyi | 3.23.2011 12:00 PM

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Contrary to pithy bumper-sticker truisms, war is occasionally the answer. But can anyone explain why it's the answer now? At the moment, at least, polls insist that Americans are generally supportive of the United States' intervening in the civil war now raging in Libya, so someone must have an ironclad case.

President Barack Obama pins his rationale for intervention on a "humanitarian threat." A noble cause, no doubt. It's too bad that the folks in old Darfur missed out on those laser-guided missiles American and French fighter jets deploy to help avert massacre and man-made hunger. Maybe the victims didn't say please. Maybe the city dwellers of Pyongyang will be more convincing.

But this mission is creeping. Only days after suggesting the goal wasn't to remove Moammar Gadhafi, the White House now says the objective is regime change and a democratic system. If the past decade has taught us anything, it's that democracy projects tend to be expensive, open-ended investments. So when we're invested without there being any perceivable threat to the United States and without our having had a debate or congressional deliberation on the topic—by a president who sprang to national prominence voicing exactly those grievances—it seems that we'd be more outraged or inquisitive or, at least, cautious.

When queried about military interventionism (thanks to Gene Healy at The Washington Examiner for the tip) before the 2008 election, in fact, Obama explained, "The president does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation."

No, he didn't affix the phrase "unless we see humanitarian threats" or "except if the French and British find some good reason."

Then again, maybe one of the problems is we now place too much stock in world opinion when making decisions. Democrats were so intensely focused on the lack of international support in Iraq that perhaps Obama confuses global approval with our interests. What's worse than letting your "allies" or the United Nations decide whether you can go to war? It's letting them tell you that you should go to war.

And when is that, exactly? The president hasn't said. Yemeni forces have fired on protesters. Syrian forces have shot down protesters. Security forces in Tunisia have killed protesters. Why no help for those freedom fighters? What happens when Saudi Arabia royals are forced to use violence to hold power? Or when Iran cracks down on another popular uprising? An argument can be made that stopping the Iranian autocracy would be more consequential to stability and peace than removing Gadhafi—even if he is a few dirham short of a dinar.

Do we even know that the insurgency we propel to victory will be successful in liberalizing Libya? Foreign policy is infested with black swans. When The New York Times asked Paul Sullivan, a Libya expert at Georgetown University, what we should expect, he answered: "It is a very important question that is terribly near impossible to answer. It could be a very big surprise when Gadhafi leaves and we find out who we are really dealing with." Comforting, no?

Is Libya more vital to our national interest than Iran or North Korea or the Kurds of Turkey? After recent experiences with conflict and social engineering, how can anyone believe we can effectively institute democracy in the Middle East? And how can so many Americans be so sure we're doing the right thing?

David Harsanyi is a columnist at The Denver Post. Follow him on Twitter at davidharsanyi.

COPYRIGHT 2011 THE DENVER POST
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David Harsanyi is senior editor of The Federalist and the author of the forthcoming First Freedom: A Ride through America's Enduring History with the Gun, From the Revolution to Today.

PoliticsWorldForeign PolicyBarack ObamaLibya
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  1. Tim   14 years ago

    What are we fighting for?
    -remove Qaddafi?
    -impose no fly zone?
    -blow up tanks?
    -protect Bengazi?

    1. Pro Libertate   14 years ago

      Why Libya and not other countries? Because it should be easy to beat? Because the leader is a well-known tyrant? Because we covet Leptis Magna?

      1. M. Porcius Cato   14 years ago

        Ceterum censeo Libyam esse delendam.

        1. Pro Libertate   14 years ago

          Which begs the question, why not Tunisia?

          1. Warty   14 years ago

            It already got delendaed, dude. Don’t you read the news?

            1. Pro Libertate   14 years ago

              I meant when it was going on.

              1. Warty   14 years ago

                Well, then, we didn’t get involved because Scipio Africanus is a scary dude. Seriously, don’t piss him off.

                1. Pro Libertate   14 years ago

                  I think we could beat him.

                  1. peachy   14 years ago

                    We wouldn’t have beaten him once Polybius got done writing it up, though…

                    1. Pro Libertate   14 years ago

                      Are you saying that Polybius was unobjective and pro-Roman?

                    2. All we are saying...   14 years ago

                      …is give despotism a chance.

      2. H man   14 years ago

        Why Libya? Two reasons one is pictures. The opposition was able to get pictures out of the attacks on them. We have a foreign policy based on what television is showing. The other reason is that it looked like the rebels were going to overthrow the government in a way that’s not apparent in Iran and then Qaddafi was able to turn the tables on them. Americans like a happy ending.

        1. Pro Libertate   14 years ago

          Ah, I see.

          1. Old Salt   14 years ago

            If you’re looking for a “happy ending” I suggest you watch a Disney movie or find a massage parlor otherwise it just ain’t gonna happen.

            Which is exactly what my last “e-harmony” date told me…

            1. OhioOrrin   14 years ago

              cause e-harmony dates wanna get married which doesnt lead to happy endings. hence massage parlors

              1. GoNavy   14 years ago

                The only time I am ever likely to agree with you is now.

              2. Cruz   14 years ago

                You’re a wise man

        2. West Texas   14 years ago

          The other reason is that it looked like the rebels were going to overthrow the government in a way that’s not apparent in Iran and then Qaddafi was able to turn the tables on them. Americans like a happy ending.

          This is the truth right here. It’s this simple.

      3. DLM   14 years ago

        You got it right the first time. Obama wants to make a name and is looking for the easiest kid on the block to push around. He doesn’t even have as good a rationale as Bush had.

    2. Barry D   14 years ago

      Maybe to protect Fugazi?

      1. Fiscal Meth   14 years ago

        Qaddafi is a patient boy…

        1. Resto Druid FTW   14 years ago

          NO way, no way, no way, no way.

          Love that song.

          1. Fiscal Meth   14 years ago

            I thought it was “I wait I wait I wait I wait”

            1. Teve Torbes   14 years ago

              yeah, sitting in the waiting room. I wait, I wait, I wait…

              1. Resto Druid FTW   14 years ago

                I stand corrected… I fail at remembering sonf lyrics I used to listed to 15-20 years ago.

                1. Resto Druid FTW   14 years ago

                  I also fail at typing apprently. : /

    3. Chupacabra   14 years ago

      I thought we were fighting to bring them universal health care?

      1. sasob   14 years ago

        And Social Security. If we can just get some more suckers contributors paying in, then both scams programs can be saved.

    4. Fiscal Meth   14 years ago

      Honestly, I think Obama is bombing Libya precisely BECAUSE Libya is no real threat and BECAUSE we have no interest in it. It is an act of pure selfless charity to an oppressed people, and since no one can say that Obama was “after” something, no one can accuse him of self-interested imperialism. For the opposite reason, he gave no support at all to the protesters in Iran. Since the Iranian regime is an ACTUAL threat, it could be seen as crudely self-assertive and opportunistic to take advantage of a popular uprising against a ruler who actually seeks America’s destruction.

      But hey, this is coming from a guy who thinks America actually SHOULD be crudely self-assertive, opportunistic and take advantage of popular uprisings against a rulers who seek America’s destruction.

      1. Old Mexican   14 years ago

        Re: Fiscal Meth,

        Honestly, I think Obama is bombing Libya precisely BECAUSE Libya is no real threat and BECAUSE we have no interest in it.

        Are you suggesting he is merely being a run-of-the-mill bully?

        No! There must be some plan! Socialists don’t even go to the crapper without a plan!

        Not that their plans ever work, but still…

        1. Fiscal Meth   14 years ago

          “Socialists don’t even go to the crapper without a plan!
          Not that their plans ever work, but still…”

          Are you saying socialists are all constipated?

          1. gao xia en   14 years ago

            No. If they don’t have a plan, they just shit anywhere.

  2. ern   14 years ago

    There isn’t anything new or unconstitutional about this attack on Libya. And that’s the problem: with such a long history of presidential uses of military power, it’s difficult to argue against Obama’s right as President to do what he is doing. Instead of whining about it, though, why not advocate a Constitutional solution, that is, an amendment which spells out (in ways the original text of the Constitution does not) the precise steps for authorizing force which is less than a full war. Strangely enough, I haven’t seen anyone suggest this solution. I think it would almost certainly garner bipartisan support. But trying to argue that this situation hasn’t been the status quo for nearly our entire history of a nation is getting very old with me. Bush at least got Congressional authorization and tried to convince people there were American interests at heart in Iraq. Unless we want this trend to continue, we need Constitutional authority to stop it. If Obama will use this Constitutional fuzziness, anyone will.

    1. Free2Booze   14 years ago

      Congress gas the authority to this with out an amendment to the Constitution.

      Under Article 1, section 8, the congress has the power to:

      * Declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
      * Make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
      * To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

      Congress attempted to address this with the War Powers Resolution. I would agree that the resolution should be updated to provide clearer guidelines to determine when force can be used.

      We should withdraw from any international agreements that require military cooperation. Obama was able to slip past congress because the War Powers Resolution provides for “situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances”. Article 45 of the UN charter states “in order to enable the United Nations to take urgent military measures, Members shall hold immediately available national air-force contingents for combined international enforcement action”. This is how Obama will be able to argue that Libya presented a situation that required our “imminent involvement in hostilities”.

    2. Ken Shultz   14 years ago

      Aren’t we being lawyered to death already?

      I wish I could get this idea across to somebody!

      If you write a law that explicitly gives the President the right to use military force in certain circumstances without Congress declaring war?

      That will be an expansion of his power! …not a circumscription!

      Using Congress to legitimize any president’s power grab does not circumscribe the power of the president.

      1. Free2Booze   14 years ago

        Unless, or course, congress has the constitutional authority to create laws that outline how the powers of the congress shall be executed, or to enact rules and regulations outlining when and how the military can be used.

        It may not be the smartest thing to do, but the Constitution does give congress the power to delegate anyone of their powers.

        1. Len   14 years ago

          Um no it doesn’t. A power once delegated unless there is a provision to do so may not be re-delegated.
          Thanks for your ignorance though. Another reminder of why our country is lost.

    3. OhioOrrin   14 years ago

      americans like the fog of war so NO to ur clarity.

      1. ClubMedSux   14 years ago

        I’m just curious… What do you do with the energy you save by communicating the word “your” through two keystrokes instead of four?

        1. OhioOrrin   14 years ago

          use the 2 keystrikes to type “fu”

          1. ClubMedSux   14 years ago

            B

        2. db   14 years ago

          It’s amazing what 2 strokes will do for Orrin.

          1. ClubMedSux   14 years ago

            A+

          2. OhioOrrin   14 years ago

            ok that’s funny

          3. Pro Liberace   14 years ago

            A winrar is you!

    4. CrackertyAssCracker   14 years ago

      it’s difficult to argue against Obama’s right as President to do what he is doing

      No it’s pretty easy. See old Obama comments. He was right then, he is wrong now.

      1. Barry D   14 years ago

        It is difficult to argue against Obama, though, since he has contradicted himself consistently, in so many areas.

        1. Rich   14 years ago

          he has contradicted himself consistently, in so many areas

          Doesn’t that make it *easy* to argue against him?

      2. cbmclean   14 years ago

        Ern’s point was that precedent all the way back to Thomas freaking Jefferson seems to be on Obama’s side (although I am unsure what sort of Congressional authorization, if any, TJ got before he sent the Marines to the shores of Tripoli). Ergo, if we want to stop this sort of thing, we have to amend the Constitution to explicitly prohibit. Perhaps something along the lines of not allowing any use of force for ANY reason (except REACTIVE self-defense) without a Congressional declaration of war. Of course, that stuff starts to get fuzzy when you start talking about fighting non-state actors like Al-Quaeda etc, but at least its a start.

        1. jkp   14 years ago

          Jefferson’s conduct in the Barbary Wars was, pace Obama, consistently respectful of Congress’ war power, if the Wikipedia is correct.

          From the Wikipedia, First Barbary War:

          “Immediately prior to Jefferson’s inauguration in 1801, Congress passed naval legislation that, among other things, provided for six frigates that ‘shall be officered and manned as the President of the United States may direct.’ . . . In the event of a declaration of war on the United States by the Barbary powers, these ships were to ‘protect our commerce & chastise their insolence ? by sinking, burning or destroying their ships & Vessels wherever you shall find them.'”[14] On Jefferson’s inauguration as president in 1801, Yusuf Karamanli, the Pasha (or Bashaw) of Tripoli, demanded $225,000 from the new administration. (In 1800, Federal revenues totaled a little over $10 million.) Putting his long-held beliefs into practice, Jefferson refused the demand. Consequently, in May 1801, the Pasha declared war on the U.S., not through any formal written documents but in the customary Barbary manner of cutting down the flagstaff in front of the U.S. Consulate. Algiers and Tunis did not follow their ally in Tripoli.

          In response, “Jefferson sent a small force to the area to protect American ships and citizens against potential aggression, but insisted that he was ‘unauthorized by the Constitution, without the sanction of Congress, to go beyond the line of defense.'”[14] He told Congress: “I communicate [to you] all material information on this subject, that in the exercise of this important function confided by the Constitution to the Legislature exclusively their judgment may form itself on a knowledge and consideration of every circumstance of weight.'”[14] Although Congress never voted on a formal declaration of war, they did authorize the President to instruct the commanders of armed American vessels to seize all vessels and goods of the Pasha of Tripoli “and also to cause to be done all such other acts of precaution or hostility as the state of war will justify.”

          1. sasob   14 years ago

            chastise their insolence

            That has a nice ring to it. Hopefully the American People will see fit to chastise Obama’s insolence come 2012.

    5. Enjoy Every Sandwich   14 years ago

      There is no “Constitutional fuzziness”. Nowhere in the Constitution is the president given the authority to start a war.

      Aside from that, any rule that is established will be broken with utter impunity. The notion that this country is a “democracy” or a “republic” is wishful thinking.

    6. db   14 years ago

      Even if an Amendment were necessary to clarify this (it isn’t, for reasons F2B states, above), there is absolutely no way it would pass. Congress is way too happy to shirk this responsibility. They would much rather have a strong leader in the Executive Branch tell them what to do and then demagogue the pros or cons later, during the next campaign cycle. They absolutely do not want to have to hold a serious debate on starting a war, much less take firm action either for or against.

      1. fresno dan   14 years ago

        I (congress) was for the war before I was against it. I was also against the war before I was for it. I was both for and against the war before I was against and for the war.
        And finally, please insert every possible caveat for every possible exigency for both for and against.
        And than pulse in a blender for 30 minutes.

    7. The Fringe Economist   14 years ago

      doesn’t matter, they’d pass some other bill for emergencies that ignore everything in the constitution

  3. Irresponsible Hater   14 years ago

    Whenever I see that guy I think he should be selling expensive rugs or marble flooring in Westwood.

    “For you my friend I give good price.”

    Later, after the sale: “No dog food for Muammar tonight!”

    1. Greer   14 years ago

      I’m just thinking that no head of state should be as ugly as that motherfucker

      1. Doktor Zombie   14 years ago

        C’mon, it’s not his fault that his mouth is upside down.

        1. Come on now   14 years ago

          He does sport some of the best-looking uniforms of any leader.

          1. Ice Nine   14 years ago

            I pretty sure he used to be an extra in Sergio Leone movies.

          2. Dead Michael Jackson   14 years ago

            I agree!

            1. OFG   14 years ago

              Wait, that isn’t you?

          3. gao xia en   14 years ago

            I think he’s on the Sergeant Pepper’s cover.

            1. AlmightyJB   14 years ago

              I thought it was the missing Bee Gee. The one they kept in the attic. Not sure why they didn’t keep Robin up there too.

  4. creech   14 years ago

    I don’t want to argue, I want to impeach the son of a bitch.

    1. OhioOrrin   14 years ago

      impeachment’s one thing. conviction’s another. keep us posted

      1. Old Mexican   14 years ago

        Re: OhioOrrin,

        impeachment’s one thing. conviction’s another. keep us posted

        Who’s asking for a conviction? Tarring and feathering would suffice, thank you very much.

    2. Muammar Muhammad al-Gaddafi   14 years ago

      Ha, dog, you’ll never impeach me!

    3. Free2Booze   14 years ago

      Kick Obama’s ass all the way to the lecture circuit, so he can earn half a mil per speech.

      Poor bastard.

  5. Paul   14 years ago

    On my way home last night, Renee Montagne on NPR was a bit aghast as to the administration’s responses when trying to ascertain our mission in Libya.

    During an interview with some administration official (I came into the middle of it) she was asking about the whos, whats, whens and hows, and when she got to the ‘who’ question as in who are we protecting, the administration official said (and I’m parapharasing), “Several officials, Sec. Clinton and others have spoken to him…”

    Renee Montagne actually did a ‘radio doubletake’ and asked, “Him? Like, one guy?

    Administration official: Uh, well, yeah, it is one person but…

    Renee Montagne: One person?

    Official: Well yeah, but he’s been picked as a representative by the rebels.

    1. Pro Libertate   14 years ago

      They’re talking about me. I represent the rebels. Not that I’ve ever been to Libya.

    2. Ky Voter   14 years ago

      I heard the whole thing. That “administration official” was John Kerry. Yep.

      1. Paul   14 years ago

        Ah, thanks for that.

      2. Lurch   14 years ago

        Reporting for duty!
        *salute*

        1. Swiftly.   14 years ago
          1. Ice Nine   14 years ago

            That is quit too philosophically befuddling, I’m afraid.

    3. Ky Voter   14 years ago

      Here it is.

    4. Jess Asken   14 years ago

      Is his code name “Knuckle Ball”?

      1. Barely Suppressed Rage   14 years ago

        Knuckle Head, maybe.

    5. Barry D   14 years ago

      Wow! You even SUGGEST that we stop flowing NPR government money, and they stop sounding like Pravda, just a little.

      1. Barely Suppressed Rage   14 years ago

        If you missed it this past Sunday, check out the most recent edition of “On the Media” with Brooke Gladstone and Bob Garfield. They analyzed the age-old question of whether NPR had a liberal bias. They had Ira Glass on, and he insisted that no way, NPR of course did not have a liberal bias.

        1. CoyoteBlue   14 years ago

          Well, if Ira says so, who am I to disagree?

          1. SugarFree   14 years ago

            His glasses give him authority.

            1. Pro Libertate   14 years ago

              They do, of course, have a liberal bias, but an even stronger NPR bias is towards statism and the idea that the Beltway is the Center of the Universe.

              1. DJF   14 years ago

                They do have disagreements, between those who think that the center of the universe is the beltway and those who think it is located at the UN.

                1. gao xia en   14 years ago

                  Not as irrational as you think. Just ask any cosmologist. The universe appears the same in all directions, so any place appears to be the center.

  6. R C Dean   14 years ago

    There isn’t anything new or unconstitutional about this attack on Libya.

    Even if it isn’t new, that doesn’t mean its Constitutional. By 1950, Jim Crow laws and school segregation weren’t new either, but that didn’t mean they were Constitutional.

    the precise steps for authorizing force which is less than a full war.

    I continue to be mystified by the notion that attacking a foreign countries armed forces and bombing its capitol is somehow not a war.

    1. Aresen   14 years ago

      Constitutional or not, does the US need a fourth war right now?

      1. affenkopf   14 years ago

        What’s the third? Pakistan?

        1. Rich   14 years ago

          *A* third is the War on Drugs.

          1. Pro Libertate   14 years ago

            The Korean War?

            1. SugarFree   14 years ago

              The War On Obesity.

              1. Pro Libertate   14 years ago

                The War on Teabaggers.

                1. jkp   14 years ago

                  Don’t forget the War on Christmas and the War on Cancer. There was a war on poverty, too, but I think that was lost about the same time as Vietnam.

                  1. The War on Airline Passengers   14 years ago
        2. DJF   14 years ago

          Don’t forget our bombing missions in Yemen.

      2. Virginia   14 years ago

        Krugman said it’s for broken windows ‘n shit.

        1. OhioOrrin   14 years ago

          pan am 103. pay-back’s a bitch

        2. Old Mexican   14 years ago

          Re: Virgina,
          With Krugnuts, everything good comes from broken windows.

      3. Free2Booze   14 years ago

        I don’t see the point on getting hung up on the use of the word “war” in any resolution authorizing force. OK, I do see the point, but no one is arguing that their is a difference between “war” and “force”. We know that they are one in the same.

        Under a formal “declaration of war”, the US military becomes subject to international law in way that it wouldn’t under a formal “authorization to use force”.

        I can get over not using the word war, but I think that the an “authorization to use force” needs a stronger legal definition, making the term analogous to “war” without having to use the word “war.”

        1. jkp   14 years ago

          You’re correct – Congress can always issue a resolution okaying the use of force, which is called an imperfect declaration of war. GWB got this before Afghanistan and Iraq, GHWB did likewise before the Kuwait War, and LBJ did this after the Gulf of Tonkin. Congress gave those Presidents authority to conduct military actions without a formal declaration of war. And in the case of Vietnam/Indochina, Congress exercised its war power by restricting the President’s authority, specifically limiting his ability to deploy forces/use airpower in Cambodia and Laos, for example.

          Notably absent was Harry S. Truman in Korea. WJC also failed to do this before the Kosovo War and Desert Fox. Of course, neither of them were Constitutional Law scholars – one would expect a Constitutional Law scholar to do better.

    2. cbmclean   14 years ago

      By 1950, Jim Crow laws and school segregation weren’t new either, but that didn’t mean they were Constitutional.

      Since Brown wasn’t decided until 1954 Jim Crow was Constitutional in 1950.

      1. Dylan   14 years ago

        The supreme court hasn’t declared that you exist yet, therefore you don’t exist.

    3. Cruz   14 years ago

      It’s not a war until John McCain drops a bomb on a child. Until then it’s a police action.

    4. fresno dan   14 years ago

      Lincoln asked if a dog’s tail was a leg, how many legs would a dog have?

      “I continue to be mystified by the notion that attacking a foreign countries armed forces and bombing its capitol is somehow not a war.”

      You are probably unaware that our cruise missiles have been rejiggered, and now contain only rainbow colored unicorns, passing peace farts, that make everybody love everybody and break into spontaneous renditions of “YMCA”

  7. Aresen   14 years ago

    You know, in that uniform, the Colonel would find it easy to get gigs as part of the chorus in Pirates of Penzance.

    1. alittlesense   14 years ago

      He looks like an apartment building doorman just back from a bender.

    2. Barry D   14 years ago

      I’m hoping for a Village People reunion tour, myself.

    3. Chinny Chin Chin   14 years ago

      he does look like the very model of a modern major general, doesn’t he?

      1. fresno dan   14 years ago

        Remember, he is a colonel – if he were a general, you wouldn’t be able to see him.

  8. darjen   14 years ago

    “Contrary to pithy bumper-sticker truisms, war is occasionally the answer.”

    Oh, ok, well that settles it, then. David Harsanyi has declared that war is sometimes necessary.

    1. Montani Semper Liberi   14 years ago

      It was pretty necessary to establish the US as an independent country. It was also pretty necessary to stop the expansion of Germany and Japan.

      1. Freed slaves   14 years ago

        dont forget us

  9. jcalton   14 years ago

    It’s not a war until troops hit the ground.
    Right now it’s an action. Or missile-testing scenario. Or justification to continue funding the military at astronomical levels in perpetuity.
    Or something. But it’s not a war.

    1. OO   14 years ago

      inventory rotation. the tomahawk 1’s were expended to make room for the 2’s.

      1. Barry D   14 years ago

        Damned annual inventory tax. They really should exempt the military.

      2. .   14 years ago

        Since many of the components of the Tomahawks are made in Japan, there may not be any “2’s” for awhile – what with Japan’s present difficulties.

    2. Barely Suppressed Rage   14 years ago

      Bullshit. When we send in how many cruise missiles? And drop how many bombs?

      When Japan did that to Pearl Harbor, it rightly was recognized as an act of war and Congress and the president responded accordingly.

    3. SugarFree   14 years ago

      Once again, the magical “boots on the ground” formulation.

      Just as if, say, Canada decided to bomb Maine. Wouldn’t be war until that first Canadian solider step over the border.

      1. Chinny Chin Chin   14 years ago

        As a Mainer, I welcome our new maple-scented overlords. This state needs a good poutine.

      2. alittlesense   14 years ago

        there is a joke buried somewhere in here about Khaddafi’s female bodyguards and “pants on the ground” instead of boots……

        1. alittlesense   14 years ago

          Desert booties call?

    4. sevo   14 years ago

      jcalton|3.23.11 @ 12:40PM|#
      “It’s not a war until troops hit the ground.”

      Pretty sure Nixon tried floating this one about bombing Cambodia.
      No reason it should work now, either.

  10. Gregory Smith   14 years ago

    Well, war IS sometimes necessary. We did fight a war of independence, right? We also liberated Europe from Hitler. However, when it comes to Libya there is no excuse.

    #1. US troops should NEVER be under the command of the United Nations. I am not a citizen of the United Nations, neither are our troops.

    #2. CONGRESS should authorize our wars.

    #3. Bring back the concept of “spoils of war.” If we’re going to spend our money invading someone else, let’s make some money in the process. It’s time for Iraq and Afghanistan to pay for their freedom.

    OBAMA VIOLATES THE CONSTITUTION WITH THIS WAR.
    http://libertarians4freedom.bl…..-with.html

    1. Rich   14 years ago

      Bring back the concept of “spoils of war.”

      Kudos for using the proper term.

    2. Bratted Spoil   14 years ago

      IAW pithy bumper-sticker truisms, “Nuke their ass and take the gas.”

      1. Barry D   14 years ago

        Or, gas, grass or ass, nobody rides for free.

        1. gao xia en   14 years ago

          Twelve empty missile tubes, a mushroom-shaped cloud, now it’s Miller time.

    3. affenkopf   14 years ago

      It’s time for Iraq and Afghanistan to pay for their freedom.

      Which freedom?

      1. OO   14 years ago

        shut-up & hand over the gold, spices, n drugs fool

    4. Old Mexican   14 years ago

      Re: Gregory Smith,

      We also liberated Europe from Hitler.

      To be clear, the U.S. liberated Europe for Stalin and the Comintern.

    5. Cruz   14 years ago

      Hey didn’t we liberate europe from a stalemate and forced the Germans into the worst treaty in european history? Didn’t we pretty much ensure Germany would have no recourse but military action in future years and the destruction of the currency by taking their precious metals? Didn’t we also help ensure the creation of the middle east? Yah war was just what we needed.

      Congress authorizes war? Or declares war?

  11. Virginia   14 years ago

    I’d settle for prima nocta as justification if this were eastern Europe… but northern fucking Africa? Who are we now, the Dutch?

    1. Barack Obama   14 years ago

      Let me be clear.

      Vandaag zijn wij Nederlands allen.

      1. Reagan   14 years ago

        nee, ich bin ein berliner

  12. Imperialist   14 years ago

    I’ve always preferred that we would work our way down through Mexico and Central America on the way to the oil in Venezuela. But if we’re going to take over all of Northern Africa and the Middle East, we should at least be open about our intentions.

    1. Barry D   14 years ago

      If I were going to enlist in the American Foreign Legion, I’d really prefer the food down there to what I’d get in Africa and, to a degree, the Middle East.

      1. OhioOrrin   14 years ago

        wait a sec, u dont like hummis, spiced dates, & shiskaboobs?

        1. alittlesense   14 years ago

          shiksa boobs?

    2. NotSure   14 years ago

      When playing the board game “Risk” I always found the key to world domination was first to owning Australia. The rest is easy.

      1. Len   14 years ago

        Only because the people you played with didn’t understand strategy.

  13. Luck Fibya   14 years ago

    Because we can.

  14. anarch   14 years ago

    Serious and lighter approaches, each fine.

    Helmet-tip to Lew (who doesn’t agree with much else his sources promote).

  15. Max   14 years ago

    I wonder how Harsanyi feels about the underwriting Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Really, just wondering.

    1. jtuf   14 years ago

      Max, the only building settlements we are funding in the West Banks are the ones the PA builds with my tax dollars. America really should stop funding the PA.

    2. Old Mexican   14 years ago

      Love some red herring in the morning,
      Love some red herring in the night!

      With lentils and sausage,
      with cream and wine!

      Love some red herring all the time!

  16. jtuf   14 years ago

    A War We Don’t Need

    That’s the entire point. From the Leftist perspective, a war we don’t need is well worth the sacrifice, because it is an opportunity to brag about how selfless we are.

    1. OhioOrrin   14 years ago

      yep there’s nothing in it for us so lose the dogs of war babieeee !!!!!

    2. jkp   14 years ago

      It’s always disturbing when Ayn Rand is proven right by events. 🙁

  17. Perfect opportunity...   14 years ago

    …no one would object to the R majority voting to cut funding for Obama’s Bloody Adventures, right?

    1. Perfect opportunity...   14 years ago

      Something the D majority never got around to doing for Bush’s Bloody Adventures.

  18. Nooge   14 years ago

    It has been interesting listening to my libtard acquaintances explain to me why it’s okay when their guy uses the military.

    1. Old Mexican   14 years ago

      Re: Nooge,
      For humanitarian purposes, Nooge, what else? The reason to applaud the use of force to blow brown people to bits is humanitarian reasons – the Obamaphilics are good with that.

      1. MNG   14 years ago

        “The reason to applaud the use of force to blow brown people to bits is humanitarian reasons”

        This is utterly simplistic considering they they are blowing some brown people to bits in an attempt to get those brown people to stop blowing other brown people to bits…I’m curious OM, if a police officer shoots a person that is attempting to murder another person is that officer acting in a bllodthirsty, immoral way?

        1. Nooge   14 years ago

          Depends on the political affiliation of said police officer.

        2. Old Mexican   14 years ago

          Re: MNG,

          I’m curious OM, if a police officer shoots a person that is attempting to murder another person is that officer acting in a bl[o]odthirsty, immoral way?

          How does the police officer know the person is attempting to murder the other person? What if each is attempting to murder each other for ownership of the house dog. How does the officer know which one to shoot?

          We’re not talking about a clear perpetrator here, we’re talking about a civil war and the US choosing sides. Whatever one may think of Qadaffi, MNG, there are people that genuinely support him and are fighting for him. Who is any of us to indicte THEM?

        3. Secret Travel Agent   14 years ago

          MNG, you’re a paranoid bigot, you have no business weighing in on matters of race. Anything you say on the matter instantly cancels out.

      2. Nooge   14 years ago

        It’s that these are people who were frothing at the mouth with rage when we went into Afghanistan and Iraq. I never supported Iraq (I did Afghanistan, but mission creep of course bit me in the ass), but I wasn’t enraged by it. I disagreed. My friends were calling for impeachment and removal of office.

        Now I’m getting lectured on how using the military to shoot missiles at Libya is so much different and better than what we’ve done in Iraq and Afghanistan and how I’m so wrong to oppose military action there. Blows my fucking mind.

        1. Nooge   14 years ago

          *er, removal from office.

          1. Nooge   14 years ago

            Yeah, OM, that’s what they’re telling me. Giving people the chance to have freedom. But I remember GWB droning on about freedom, and libtards didn’t care. If they would just admit to me that it’s because their guy used the military, I probably wouldn’t even care- but they keep spinning and rationalizing.

        2. MNG   14 years ago

          Well many on the left are upset about this. But yes not as many, but that is to be expected considering that at the moment there are some big differences between this and Iraq…

          1. Aresen   14 years ago

            Yeah: Gaddafi gave up his WMD program clearly and definitively and has not used poison gas on his own people.

            But if you are going to try and justify this on the basis of violent and cruel suppression of a rebellion, tell me if you think that, when the Shias rebelled after GW1, the forces then present in Kuwait should have protected the rebels? (I’ve always felt a little sick about the way Bush the Elder tacitly encouraged them to rebel then stood by while Saddam Hussein massacred 300,000 people.)

            1. sasob   14 years ago

              That was one of the very few times in my life I have ever actually felt ashamed of my country. Bush the Elder was/is a hypocritical son of a bitch. I’ve always thought the man was a prick – even way back when he was seeking the Republican nomination against Reagan.

              1. Secret Travel Agent   14 years ago

                Clinton shares that blame too. He had opportunities to whack Saddam and support the Kurds but sold them out to keep foreign countries and their UN food-for-oil scam running.

  19. MNG   14 years ago

    I still don’t get why a minarchist who would support having a tax funded police department to intervene to protect the rights of someone surrounded and attacked by thugs but not support a tax funded military strike to aid a foriegner in similar peril. I thought this nation stuff was ‘lines on a map?’

    1. MNG   14 years ago

      Don’t get me wrong, I can understand a minarchist being opposed because all too often “war is the health of the state” and because it leads to entangling alliances and hatreds that can cause blowback and also because we very likely will make things worse, but it strikes me that if minarchist libertarianism is about more than just “hey don’t touch my stuff” then protecting and promoting liberty based rights of all people would not be off the table.

    2. Imperialist   14 years ago

      Because police forces cover a certain jurisdication and are funded by the residents of that jurisdication. Do you really expect the residents of Illinois to fund roving police units to protect the people of Iowa?

      Since the civil war in Libya is an internal matter for Libyeans, they are not our problem.

      1. MNG   14 years ago

        If the residents of Iowa were being overwhelmed I might think the Illini might come to their aid.

        1. Citizen Nothing   14 years ago

          But what if the (U. of Iowa) Hawkeyes were being overwhelmed by the (Iowa State) Cyclones? Hmmm? (Serious point, by way.)

          1. MNG   14 years ago

            Iowa State? The can’t overwhelm anybody.

            1. Fred Hoiberg   14 years ago

              How quickly they forget.

        2. MNG   14 years ago

          Well, we are willing members of international organizations that have jurisdiction over these humanitarian crises.

          More importantly, should jurisdictional matters trump the prmotion and protection of basic libert rights for someone who calls themselves a “libertarian?”

          1. Imperialist   14 years ago

            Bullshit!

          2. Citizen Nothing   14 years ago

            It might be possible to construct a scenario whereby using American military power is clearly going to, on balance, benefit basic human rights (whether or not I agree with using the military to do so).

            But Libya is not that scenario.

          3. Bugs   14 years ago

            What fantasy world do you live in? Nobody has “jurisdiction” over anything.

          4. Secret Travel Agent   14 years ago

            Be careful, you’re a bigot MNG. You have no capacity to appreciate jurisdictions or international scenarios, because your brain is clouded with psychotic racial delusions. No quarter for you.

            What you should be doing is washing your Klan outfit, and working yourself into a frenzy over whatever group has maligned you with easter candy.

        3. Imperialist   14 years ago

          You mean if the Govenor of Iowa declared a state of emergency and requested assistance from neighboring states they might actually come help? Sure why not.

          So far as I can tell, Gaddafyduck has not requested support from the international community to quell the rebellion of the population of Libya against the sovereign state of Libya.

          So the decision by the UN to blow the shit out of the sovereign state of Libya to protect the rebellion is pretty much totally irrelvant to police crossing state lines to help in emergencies.

          So save the bullshit, you dishonest prick.

          1. Citizen Nothing   14 years ago

            Yeah. But if the Hawkeyes were getting the shit kicked out of them by the Cylones, then obviously the Illini, (sharing the values and worldview of the Big 10) would come to the aid of the good guys, whoever was nominally in charge.

          2. MNG   14 years ago

            Wow, you are defending the legitimate sovriegnty of the Libyan regime and calling other people’s comments bullshit?

            Wow.

            1. Imperialist   14 years ago

              Since Libya was given a seat on the UN security council 2007, I assume this means the world in general believes that governemt of Libya is legitimate.

              Civils wars occur all over the world. As far as I know, the UN doesn’t routinely call for member nations to bomb the shit out of the governments of nations suffering from civil war.

              So the whole fucking action is illegitimate. And I say this as someone that sees the rational for considering conquest to be legitimate behavior.

          3. MNG   14 years ago

            I mean if the Governor of Iowa dissolved the state legislature, courts and constitution declaring himself king for like and went on a reign of terror over Iowans you would oppose the intervention by neighboring states because it would violate the sovriegnty of Iowa?

            Jesus you are stupid.

            1. Imperialist   14 years ago

              Here is the standard MNG shuffle — It’s just a jump to the left, with hands up, And a step to the right, With you hands on your hips, and then your get from traditional police functions to the total breakdown of civillian government Iowa.

              I know you are not that stupid, so I firmly believe you are being dishonest when you come here and make these arguments.

            2. Len   14 years ago

              Under the US constitution the other states could come to the aid of Iowans.

              Section. 4. The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence.

              1. Arizona   14 years ago

                and shall protect each of them against Invasion

                ??? You don’t say?

                1. Len   14 years ago

                  shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government

    3. cynical   14 years ago

      I don’t think most minarchists would support having their tax funded police department sail off overseas because they heard there were criminals there, so what’s your point?

      For police not to become corrupt, they must obey the rules that give them power and which they enforce. Jurisdiction is one of those rules — police are delegated power by the people of an area, to enforce the laws of that area. Qaddafi might be a tyrant, but Obama is just as unelected and unaccountable to them (and just as likely to harm Libyan citizens).

  20. Resto Druid FTW   14 years ago

    “And how can so many Americans be so sure we’re doing the right thing?”

    Easy, blind stupidity. Whether it’s willful or not makes no difference.

  21. Kreel Sarloo   14 years ago

    It’s time for Iraq and Afghanistan to pay for their freedom.

    1) I don’t recall them asking for it.

    2) What freedom?

  22. Tim   14 years ago

    BTW;
    Nice photo of Qadaffi : it looks like somebody drew a face on a one nut scrotum.

    1. Citizen Nothing   14 years ago

      Somebody has to say it: “One Nut Scrotum” would be a good name for a band.

  23. Ike   14 years ago

    Two egregious errors prevail in these comments. (1) The U.S. President has no inherent authority to use military force against anyone, anytime; (2) if the Congress declares war, the U.S. military are no more under “international law” than they are before such a declaration.

    One: Only Congress may declare war and based upon the practice of the 18th Century, that means no military action, period. See the Constitution, Article I, Section 8. The War Powers Act only authorizes the President to take military action under one of three circumstances without prior Congressional approval, but he must within 30 days thereafter give Congress a report and seek a resolution approving his actions. To make not too fine a point of it: there is no Constitutional authority to order the U.S. military to attack another nation which has taken no military action against the U.S. Sorry for the cry-babies, but Libya killing people who are in rebellion against the lawful government of that nation does not legally justify an act of war by the U.S.

    Two: No treaty of any sort is binding upon any U.S. citizen until and unless it is adopted by the President with the advice and consent of the Senate. Once a treaty is so approved, it is a part of U.S. law, to the extent and on the subjects which it covers. No U.S. military are subject to any law other than that of the U.S. expressed in the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which is a federal statute.

    Impeachable offense? It is my opinion that, taken together with the President’s other evasions and usurpations of established law, it is and that together they constitute “high crimes and misdemeanors” sufficient to warrant impeachment and conviction. But, stop and think: do you really want Joe Biden to be President of the U.S.? I mean, really, really, really?????

    1. Enjoy Every Sandwich   14 years ago

      Alas, statists aren’t much for following the Constitution–yeah, the same document that established the state they worship so much–or any consistent principles of any sort.

      You see, following principles is not “pragmatic”. In other words, anything that inconveniently gets in the way of their whims is to be discarded (although it can be retrieved in the future if it is “pragmatic” to do so, say for campaign rhetoric, e.g. what Obama the candidate said about the president not having the authority to do what Obama the president just did).

    2. creech   14 years ago

      President Biden, what a hoot that would be!

    3. Free2Booze   14 years ago

      Article 1 section 8 grants congress the power “To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.”

      The Constitution does not outline how congress must execute it’s powers, instead it grants congress the power to determine how to execute their power. If congress choses to delegate one of those powers to another entity in the government, as long as it is written in law, it is with in the constitutional authority of congress to do so.

      The constitution does not state in what way or what situations the military can be used, only that congress alone has the power to create laws regulating the military. This includes making law as when and how the President, as commander in chief, can command the armed forces. If the congress feels it is necessary and proper to allow the President some discretion, they can do so.

      1. Ike   14 years ago

        The “necessary and proper” clause cannot be interpreted as expanding Congressional power beyond the limits set out in the specific delegation sections which preceed it. To do so would defeat the purpose of specifying what Congress may do, as such an interpretation would remove any limitations on Congressional powers. So, wrong there.

        Your second paragraph is wrong, as a matter of law. Congress may not delegate any of its powers to another branch of government. To do so would be in violation of a fundamental principle of American government, namely, the separation of powers doctrine. The powers of government were divided into three separate branches, selected by different methods and having varying terms of office, etc, in order to prevent a dictatorship, that is, one person exercising all powers of government.

        Your third paragraph is wrong in that the constitution says that only Congress may declare war. The provisions of the Constitution, in order to make sense, have to be read in the context of the time and place in which they were written. “War” was any use of military force by one nation against another. (That one hasn’t changed, by the way, we’ve just been poorly educated about it.) The President always commands the armed forces, per the Constitution; he doesn’t need Congressional action to make that so. What the Constitution requires is that Congress authorize the President to use military force against another nation. The War Powers Act is precisely a law which grants the President ‘some discretion’, but still requires that his actions be based upon the existance of specified circumstances and subject to Congressional approval. It is not an unqualified grant of authority to make war without Congressional approval/authority. To do that would be to violate the separation of powers doctrine and would defeat the purpose of having three branches of government.

        When I say “wrong” here, I don’t mean you’re stupid or anything of the sort, nor that I disagree with you (alhthough I do). Rather, I mean that you are mistaken in your interpretation of the meaning of those provisions of the Constitution.

  24. Beep   14 years ago

    For those unsure how to complain, this may help.

  25. R C Dean   14 years ago

    Since Brown wasn’t decided until 1954 Jim Crow was Constitutional in 1950.

    This isn’t the time for a debate about whether absolutely everything is constitutional until SCOTUS says it isn’t, but my position is that Jim Crow and desegregation were never Constitutional, even before SCOTUS finally issued a decision saying so.

    1. Tony   14 years ago

      And to what authority do you appeal to base this on?

      1. Aresen   14 years ago

        So, if the Marshall Court had never ruled against it, you would have been OK with Jackson’s expulsion of the Cherokee and the Trail of Tears?

        1. Tony   14 years ago

          No, and that’s not an answer.

          1. Aresen   14 years ago

            It is an answer. Remember Jackson’s response: “Let Justice Marshall enforce his decision.”

            A law is not unconstitutional because the SCOTUS says so. The SCOTUS observes that a law is unconstitutional and says so.

            1. Tony   14 years ago

              What’s the difference?

            2. sasob   14 years ago

              Aresen is correct. I would think the Justices would be highly incensed at any suggestion that their saying so is what makes a law constitutional – any suggestion that the Law is not objectively independent of their personal opinion of it.

              1. Tony   14 years ago

                Then why do we need them?

                1. sevo   14 years ago

                  Tony|3.23.11 @ 5:56PM|#
                  “Then why do we need them?”

                  So we don’t have to rely on fools like you.

                2. cynical   14 years ago

                  Why do you need a doctor to tell you what the appropriate medical course of action is when you come in with an ailment? It is what it is, regardless of his advice.

                  The Supremes are supposed to be experts in interpreting the Constitution. But expertise doesn’t guarantee results, especially once pride and prejudice enter the picture.

    2. Aresen   14 years ago

      …and desegregation were never Constitutional,…

      I think you mean “segregation”.

  26. R C Dean   14 years ago

    I still don’t get why a minarchist who would support having a tax funded police department to intervene to protect the rights of someone surrounded and attacked by thugs but not support a tax funded military strike to aid a foriegner in similar peril.

    Because a minarchist state has duties to its own citizens, not to unaffiliated foreigners.

    Really, why is this so hard to understand?

  27. Chaos Punk   14 years ago

    anti-war hippie shit.

  28. Ike   14 years ago

    Consider this historical hypothetical: it is 1961 and the Civil War is blazing. President Lincoln has said that he will stick at nothing to ‘preserve the Union’. The Confederacy refuses to yield and has, in fact, won some significant military victories. One fine day, British, French, Prussian and Imperial Russian forces land along the eastern coast of the U.S. and demand that President Lincoln resign and submit himself to a trial before a tribunal of those nations’ jurists and that his prosecution of “innocent civilians” cease. What is that? Just what we’re doing in Libya. It’s a civil war – no matter which side (if any) we believe to be ‘right’, it is a conflict between the lawful government and people in rebellion against it. Just as the situation in the spring of 1861, in the United States.

    As a matter of pragmatic policy, the U.S. doesn’t have enough resources – military, civilian, money, you name it – to intervene on the side of ‘right’ in all of the world’s conflicts, certainly not in all of the world’s internal conflicts. Forget, for the moment, about figuring out who is ‘right’ and just consider the practical. What interest of the United States as a nation is advanced by this attack on a nation which has not attacked us nor any of our allies?

  29. Ike   14 years ago

    ooops … for “1961” read “1861”. Not enough coffee to even be in the correct century, there.

  30. Mr. Mark   14 years ago

    “Why is America intervening in a Libyan civil war?”

    Because our management is retarded.

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