Reason Morning Links: North Korea Attacks South Korea, Irish Government Fails, Gates Wants DADT Repeal

• North Korea attacks South Korean border island.
• Irish government collapses after bailout.
• Afghan peace talks marred by impostor claiming to be high-ranking Taliban.
• Pat-down procedures demonstrated on Capitol Hill.
• Pentagon wants Don't Ask/Don't Tell repealed this year.

Comments

[MNG]

We should just offer increased aid and military goodies to bribe N. Korea to be good like we are doing with Israel...

[Fist of Etiquette]

When will North Korea and South Korea just admit that they're in love with each other?

[MNG]

But who will pitch and who will catch? I think that's what the six party negotiations are all about.

[sloopyinca]

"Six party negotiations" denotes more of a gang-bang or group sex scenario.

Meh, if there's a few hot Asian women involved, I could deal with the odd accidental back-door penetration that comes with an orgy.

No homo.

[capitol l]

So it could be accidental, but not occidental?

[MNG]

+1

[Joe M]

It could be, if you add occidental.

[waffles]

Someday they will be together forever.

[John]

There is so much moral equivalence between Israel and North Korea. And we have been bribing North Korea for almost 20 years. It hasn't worked. At one point during the Clinton Administration North Korea was the largest recipient of US foreign aid in Asia.

We just need to cut them off and make it clear we will nuke them if they start any trouble.

But seriously, do you honestly think sending arms to Israel is equivalent to sending arms to the most repressive regime on earth?

[MNG]

It was a joke, meant to highlight how stupid it is to reward bad behavior with funds and goodies no matter who the recipient.

Do you think the current administration proposal to bribe Israel not to build more settlements is a good idea? The old policy was to cut our aid by every dollar expended on settlements.

[MNG]

If we are going to have the same relationship with Israel that our government does with welfare queens then the least we can do is start having some welfare-reform style restrictions on the aid...Treat building settlements like having more kids and stuff.

[asdf]

For sure, we need to stop bribing countries with money we borrowed/printed, Israel especially.

[sloopyinca]

But what about the Holocaust? Auschwitz and all that. Thay're entitled, aren't they?

You'd have to be as blind as Anne Frank to not see our support of Isreal helps to stabilize the middle east.

[Nick]

Well played. (Plus one just seems so cold. Happy Thanksgiving everyone.)

[waffles]

Reparations are bad politics. It's just affirmative action of a different type and scale.

[nekoxgirl]

Dante: You're talking about Helen Keller.

Randal: Then who the f**k is Anne Frank?

[CavMedic]

At some point the Chinese will have to decide whether or not the Norks are worth more than maintaining positive relations with the ROK. If they ever do decide that they value the ROK over the Norks, the South will stomp them in pretty short order.

[MNG]

China gets so much from their relationship with N. Korea. First, they come off as less of the commie evil than they actually are in comparison. Second they can get all kinds of leverage with the West by being known as having influence over N. Korea.

So I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to ditch N. Korea anytime soon.

[Fluffy]

The North Korean state seems particularly vulnerable to a decapitation attack.

If you popped the top 15 guys, wouldn't the rest of it fold like a house of cards?

Of course, once upon a time I thought that about Iraq, too...

[Tulpa]

The Iraqi regime -- the enemy that Bush was authorized to use military force against -- fell almost immediately upon invasion. Another reason why, for most of its duration, the Iraq occupation has been unconstitutional even if one believes an AUMF is equivalent to a declaration of war.

[Abdul]

Tulpa's right. Winning the war is easy, it's the peace that you can't win. I'd bet most of the NK army would surrender for half a cup of kimchee. But the problem is who would provide the kimchee? China, South Korea and the US all don't want to be responsible for the refugees.

[Nick]

You don't need refugees. The Korean peninsula unifies under SK. The Norks stay where they are but engage in capitalism just like the South. China is the problem. What do they get out of it, cuz they aren't about to let it go for nothing. How badly do we need Taiwan to be independent? I bet you could get China to kill every North Commie in even trade for Taiwan. IN other words, it'll never happen.

[Tulpa]

I don't think we have the authority to give Taiwan back to China. Recall that we don't even recognize Taiwan as an independent country anymore.

In any case, it's likely that the continued existence of the NK regime is going to become just as irritating to China at some point as it is to us.

[CavMedic]

That's probably true. I read the British Army's (unofficial) message board-ARRSE-and there is a pretty knowledgeable Sinophile (married to a Chinese chick, speaks the language, visits regularly) over there who thinks that the PRC is repositioning itself, but I'm not holding my breath.

The only alternative I can see is the status quo of irregualar small scale fighting and Nork posturing (though maybe the new "Dear Leader"-or whatever they decide to call him-will be unable to hold the whole, bizzare potemkin mess together and it will all end peacefully-not holding my breath on that one either).

[Timon19]

The message board is called ARRSE? That's awesome.

[CavMedic]

It's short for the ARmy Rumour SErvice.

[skr]

Yeah, but SoKo is in the top ten of China's trading partners.

[sloopyinca]

I wish South Korea would change their name to Lower Korea. I fear that is the only thing that can save the Four LoKo threads from extinction.

[Pope Jimbo]

+1

The ChiComs are the ones who allow the Kim dynasty to continue on. If they stopped propping them up, I'd give the Norks about 6 months.

[Aresen]

One of the worries for the Chinese is that, should the Kim regime collapse, they could have a flood of refugees.

And the North Korean regime will not go quietly. If necessary to keep themselves in power, they will use tactics that make Tienamen square look like a box social.

[Mo]

Technically, Israel is in Asia and they're our largest aid recipient, period.

[Tulpa]

There is so much moral equivalence between Israel and North Korea.

I agree. North Korea doesn't bombard and blockade the south when it elects a government the North doesn't like, and then refuse to allow building supplies in, to the point of attacking foreign ships in international waters.

Also, North Korea doesn't build settlements for North Koreans on South Korean land. So you're right, they're not equivalent.

[Heroic Mulatto]

Also, North Korea doesn't build settlements for North Koreans on South Korean land.

Around 49,000,000 South Koreans would disagree with you.

[Cytotoxic]

Moral relativist asshat is an asshat.

[Pope Jimbo]

I'm not sure nukes are all that effective. 1) Kim is batshit crazy and MAD strategies only work on people who are sort of sane. 2) Do you really think people have the stones to drop a nuke (on another non-white city no less)? 3) The Nork's aren't that reliant on technology, so dropping a nuke isn't going to do as much to disrupt the command and control of their army as much as you would think. 4) The army is f-ing bad ass. If Pyongyang was nuked, I think that 30K american troops between the DMZ and Seoul would be overrun within 24 hours.

My wife is from Daegu, Korea and she and her friends have been up for hours now talking about this. They seem fairly worried that Kim is dying and has decided to go out with a bang.

[Tulpa]

Casualty ratios in a US/SK vs. NK conflict would probably resemble the British vs. Zulu in the 1800s at this point. The US forces might be overrun, but the NK numerical advantage would evaporate almost instantly.

[MNG]

That was a great f*cking movie!

[CavMedic]

"Zulus sir, thousands of 'em".

"Because we're here lad. Nobody else, just us."

[Tulpa]

It's in the public domain you know.

[Pope Jimbo]

I agree that in the long term the US would reduce the Norks to nothing, but I sure wouldn't like to be one of those poor bastards stationed just north of Seoul.

I'm just saying that if you want to get froggy with the Norks, you had better be ready to explain to the nation why there are 10K+ body bags coming home. You will also get beat up for killing a lot of ROK civilians too during the conflict as collateral damage.

[sloopyinca]

Would we also be subjected to another 11 years of Alan Alda's take on war? If it brought back Frank Burns, I'm for it. If it brought back Hawkeye Pierce, not so much.

[TrickyVic]

I hear Radar needs a job.

[skr]

their numerical advantage isn't that great when you include the 600k SoKo army.

[CavMedic]

I think most US troops have been pulled back to south of the Han river. I also think that the Nork arty could make life hell in Seoul for 48 hours or so and then ROK air superiority would destroy most of the tubes. The DPRK army stands almost no chance in a force on force fight against the ROK, IMHO.

[Pope Jimbo]

I guess I'm just overly pessimistic. Probably because my wife (all 5' 100lb of her) is typical of most of the Koreans I have met. My personal experience has led me to believe that the Norks will be far meaner and more stubborn than any reasonable person would expect.

I think P.J. O'Rourke called them the Irish of the East, which is an apt description.

[BakedPenguin]

They are also half-starved. This includes the soldiers. Other than high ranking officers, they don't get good rations.

[TeamBarstool]

Friends of mine that have been stationed there have said that the ground invasion will last until they get to the 1st grocery store

[Old Mexican]

Re: John,

There is so much moral equivalence between Israel and North Korea.

Yes, there is: If BOTH happily receive aid that came from MY FUCKING WALLET, they are NO BETTER THAN THIEVES, the two. I don't care if one fancies itself "the only democracy in the Middle East," a thief is a thief is a thief.

Thieves!!

[Tulpa]

Israel is not a democracy.

[Old Mexican]

Re: Tulpa,

That's why I said I don't care if they fancy themselves one.

And, Israel is a thieving country regardless - they receive stolen goods just as giddily as the North Koreans.

[Cytotoxic]

Actually, it is, for a fact.

[Tulpa]

Aside from Jewish settlers, no one in the West Bank has any vote in any level of Israeli government. Yet the Israeli government continues to exercise jurisdiction there.

[Sy]

Do illegal immigrants vote in the U.S.?

[Obama Admin Cabinet Official]

Kim Jong-il is my second-favorite political philosopher.

[Michael Moore]

North Korea has the world's second-best health-care system.

[Wind Rider]

Hey, but they built roads!

[blubi]

Gotta love the UN. N. Korea sinks a ship, lobs a few missiles and everyone asks for restraint.
Build a few apartments, now that?s an outrage.

[Tulpa]

If Israel were building on Israeli land, there would be no outrage. You left the minor detail that the land in question does not belong to Israel.

[Sy]

Except for the part where it does belong to Israel. Last I checked, Israel didn't try to take on 7 countries at once in order to whipe them off the map.

[MNG]

Pentagon wants Don't Ask/Don't Tell repealed this year.

When asked for further clarification a Pentagon spokesman replied "No homo."

[capitol l]

And our enlightened president muttered something about "filthy queers", shortly before putting on a GW Bush mask and pissing out the window of the presidential limo.

A local man said, "It's good to have some sanity back in DC for once". He was immediately detained by secret service, who promptly castrated him with a rusty paring knife.

The man, who told reporters his name was 'Tony', could not be reached for comment, and his condition is unknown.

[CavMedic]

Give the puzzle palace brass credit though-they took a stand that will at least give their more cowardly capitol hill counterparts cover for ending the policy.

This is a lot like letting the courts decide controversial policies IMHO. The judges and generals don't have to stand for election, which lets the President and congresscritters off the hook.

[MNG]

"Give the puzzle palace brass credit though-they took a stand that will at least give their more cowardly capitol hill counterparts cover for ending the policy."

This. +1

[Wind Rider]

Yep. The occupants of the Five sided wind tunnel have come to realize that the constant yammering about the subject is much more distracting and disruptive than the actual presence of gays, which they fully realize are already in the military. Plus they can get to tell the raging homophobes that do make it an issue to shut up and color, and re-focus their limited attention spans back on the missions they're charged with.

[asdf]

haha

[Fist of Etiquette]

Irish government collapses after bailout.

What will the new government do with corporate tax rates in the Land of Ire?

[Atanarjuat]

I think it's actually the land of ?ire. No mention of corporate tax rate in the article, but the new budget will be decreasing the "minimum wage (currently one of the highest in Europe) and reductions to universal child benefits ? payments the country makes to parents with children regardless of their income level".

[Ebeneezer Scrooge]

Raise them, just like the European mainland wants them to do.

It's really pissing off the French and Germans that the Irish have been drawing all the foreign capital investment. I mean it's not fair for the Irish to have that big tax advantage.

[Finchy]

Afghan peace talks marred by impostor claiming to be high-ranking Taliban.

No doubt a publicity stunt to hype his appearance on The Real Housewives of Kandahar.

[MNG]

The imposter was Rob Schneider.

[Pope Jimbo]

Huh? Is Adam Sandler shooting a movie (The Poppy Boy?) there? That is the only time you tend to see Rob nowadays.

[MNG]

Are you suggesting Rob sleeps in a box in the basement of one of Sandler's mansions in a Gimp outfit?

[Pope Jimbo]

Yes. And it speaks volumes to the magnanimity of Adam Sandler that he leaves Rob that much dignity.

What happened to poor Rob? After Men Behaving Badly, I thought he was going to go on to good things.

Maybe LG could string thousands of their plasma TV's along the DMV and show The Animal, The Hot Chick and the Deuce Bigelowe movies in a continuous loop. That should repel the Nork hordes.

[sloopyinca]

Are you somehow suggesting that he doesn't?

[Brett L]

Shit. Why am I the only person in the world NOT scamming the US government.

[Wind Rider]

Snooze ya lose, dude.

[DanD]

Wifi is killing our trees, dudes!

Green science at its best.

[Brett L]

This is totally a "NutraSweet causes cancer" study. You'd think, if true, they'd have noticed this with radio towers over the last 50 years.

Mongo, prepare my aluminium bonnet and monocle.

[Isaac Bartram]

See, now you probably think that all radio waves are alike but, you see, all that pron that's on the intertubes is making their radio waves really filthy and that's what's killing the trees.

[DanD]

That's a nice melding of right- and left-wing conspiracy 🙂

[Nick]

The researchers urged that further studies were needed to confirm the current results and determine long-term effects of wireless radiation on trees.

Of course they did.

[Butts Wagner]

But now that the internet has rendered books obsolete, what do we need trees for anyways?

[Brett L]

You can't wipe your ass with an iPod more than once

[U.S. Constitution]

Tell me about it.

[U.S. Constitution]

Tell me about it.

[U.S. Constitution]

Tell me about it.

(extra verbage, spam filter)

[capitol l]

Personally I don't blame the Irish for their recent troubles.

Anytime that you let people of obvious inferiority govern themselves nothing good can come of it. Beer, bombs, and the pope are simple things that they can understand, but to give them a government and expect them to run it is really asking too much.

Not to say that it doesn't make me happy to see them grovelling for Euros.

[MNG]

I've long thought this about those uncivilized Greeks. I mean, name one contribution to Western Society those cave-people have ever given us!

[capitol l]

I know you are joking, because at least the greeks once had a thriving culture.

What is the Irish equivalence?

James fucking Joyce; hack author and con-man.

I think the only reason that people ever read Joyce was because he was the only mick who knew how to use a typewriter. And morbid curiosity, of course.

Sure, if I lock a feral cat in a room with a typewriter, then I am sure it will write something "surreal". That doesn't mean anyone should read it.

[MNG]

http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Sa.....0385418493

[capitol l]

That is just mean, minge.

You or I will instantly recognize the satirical value of such a work, but the poor Irishman will regard it as truth. He'll eagerly quote the book to snickering Scotsmen, not knowing what ridicule he is facing.

It would be like an American redneck(probably of Irish ancestry)using Stephen Colbert as a reference on a youtube comments thread. More sad than idiotic, for the idiot knows not what he does.

[SugarFree]

The Irish gave you me.

[capitol l]

It's no fun to argue when you make my points for me.

[SugarFree]

I just think you are going after the wrong group.

The Italians gave you Episiarch.

[Brett L]

Irish monks did preserve a pretty significant part of the Greek Catholic tradition in the days before the GO-RC split. For a while they were pretty much the only literate people north of the Alps.

And whisky.

[Senator Craigslist]

Anal sex. Doing it Greek, baby.

Hat tip: Elliot Spitzer

[blubi]

They?re not the same greeks, as any old sculpture can attest to.
Or if you can imagine a greek today killing himself because the people have decided he should.

[Fluffy]

Actually, they're grovelling for Euros so they can give them back to other Europeans.

The Irish bank liabilities are as extensive as they are largely on the basis of the deposits they accepted from overseas.

The best thing Ireland could have done for its OWN people was to let the banks fail back at the onset of the crisis, but then turn around and funnel assets back to the Irish depositors who lost money, while leaving the overseas depositors twisting in the wind.*

*Insert libertarian disclaimer about not helping any of the depositors being the right thing to do. But if they were trying to write a policy to steal for somebody, this would have been the better way to do it.

[Fluffy]

This latest bailout is putting the Irish population on the hook for 32,500 each in new debt, in order to guarantee the deposits of Englishmen and Frenchies.

Europe will devour itself in the end, rather than just let the banks go.

[Tulpa]

Keep in mind that the Irish profited mightily from Ireland's status as an attractive investment location. So it's not as unfair as it sounds (aside from the fact that all bailouts are unfair).

[Wind Rider]

And NOBODY seems to be willing to consider the perfectly viable solution of selling the Irish kids that the state has been subsidizing into indentured servitude for 15 years a head or some such to make up the losses. Hey, it's not like they haven;t done it before!

[TrickyVic]

""And NOBODY seems to be willing to consider the perfectly viable solution of selling the Irish kids that the state has been subsidizing into indentured servitude for 15 years a head or some such to make up the losses.""

We are talking about building a new railroad.

[A Heartbroken Irishman]

No need for that, sure. Amnesty International might hear about it. Don't send the Irish to a labour camp. Turn Ireland into a labour camp!

Putting barbed wire and armed men along the Irish border, deporting anybody who makes it across alive, and banning all travel outside Ireland by able-bodied Irishmen and Irishwomen under 70 years of age, will be enough to make sure they stay home and pay their taxes to their masters (on the crap wages they make cleaning up the puke of tourists on cheap holidays from London and Berlin).

Worked wonders in East Germany. Ask Angela Merkel, she grew up there.

Romania too. The Irish, if the bond-holders have their way, will wind up exporting all their food to pay their debts, living on boiled potatoes, getting three hours of electricity a day and two hours of TV (back to one channel, showing the news, fiddle music and nothing else) and they'll like it!

[mad libertarian guy]

Then I have A Modest Proposal.

[hmm]

country full of gingers

What did you expect?

[affenkopf]

Anytime that you let people of obvious inferiority govern themselves nothing good can come of it. Beer, bombs, and the pope are simple things that they can understand, but to give them a government and expect them to run it is really asking too much.

There's a reason English and American writers of the past often called the Irish white negros.

[sloopyinca]

I didn't know they could sing and dance.

[Spoonman.]

According to the Ireland article, the country gives benefits to parents of children regardless of income level.

WTF??

[MNG]

Who the hell do they think they are, Alaska or Massachussetts?

[hmm]

You're kind of making his point for him with those two states. Is this a trend?

[Isaac Bartram]

Canada does it too. Australia, too IIANM.

It's a fairly common feature of the universal welfare state.

[JD]

It's a fairly common feature of a state that's trying to encourage people to have kids so their tax base doesn't collapse as their population ages.

If it wasn't for immigration propping up the US population, we'd be in negative population growth too and the government would be begging people to have kids to prevent Social Security from imploding.

[Old Mexican]

Re: Spoonman,

According to the Ireland article, the country gives benefits to parents of children regardless of income level.

Well, phew! Better that than giving the parents of children any money regardless if they have children or not!

Oh, right, they ARE doing that already, as well . . . it's called "WELFARE" (i.e. thieving)!

[cynical]

Public education?

[x,y]

Tax deductions too.

[Spartacus]

Socialist bastards! Real capitalists use tax credits!

[rhea]

North Korea had nothing to do today, so it started a war.

http://www.pathtoasia.com/jobs/

[generic Brand]

Why would you advertise jobs in Asia on a thread talking about the tumultuous nature of Asian nations?

[Kolohe]

Creative destruction, yo!

[Kolohe]

Plus the first Mercenaries game was pretty fun.

[SIV]

I figured you guys would like this take from prominet "libertarian commenter" Glenn Reynolds:

JUST WHAT THE WORLD NEEDS NOW: North Korea fires artillery barrage on South. If they start anything, I say nuke 'em. And not with just a few bombs. They've caused enough trouble ? and it would be a useful lesson for Iran, too. We can't afford another Korean war, but hey, we're already dismantling warheads. . . .

[Wind Rider]

Glenn just posted this early. Check back with him after he's had some more coffee. And bacon.

[Brett L]

Well, with Korean War II - The Quickening being the alternative, I pick this. But that's a false choice.

[DJF]

Since South Korea has twice the population and more then ten times the GDP of North Korea I think the US should leave since South Korea should be able to handle their cousins by themselves. The fact that South Korea only spends 2% GDP on defense while the US spends more then 4 percent shows to me that the South does not really worry about North Korea and if they are not worried why should the US spend money and possible lives on defending South Korea?

[John]

I thought Reynolds was a neocon nation builder? Hey rubble doesn't make trouble. Better to nuke them than get into another occupation.

[Cytotoxic]

This. NK needs neutralization.

[Aresen]

As despicable as the North Korean regime is, I am not willing to kill millions of innocent people just to be rid of them.

"Collective guilt" is about as unlibertarian as you can get.

[John]

I wouldn't nuke them unilaterally no. But if they start a war, fuck them. Nuke them and be done with it. That place and the twisted little midget running it are not worth one drop of American blood.

[generic Brand]

If the populous is against going to war, they can visibly rise up against the Jong Il regime. If they don't resist, they are clearly for war and forego their right to not being nuked.

[Patrick Henry]

Give them liberty or give them death...or both.

[Cytotoxic]

Civilians are not necessarily innocent.

[nekoxgirl]

I don't think we should nuke people unless its a lost resort move against a country threatening to invade us.

[RyanXXX]

Some neocons aren't as enthusiastic about state-building - most of them don't call for "boots on the ground" in Iran, for example.

But seriously, nuking North Korea, a country that may pose a threat to its neighbors (but not really) but certainly poses no threat to us, would be disgusting. Kinda disturbing to see people advocate it.

"Well, it's better than occupation." As if those are the only two options

[Tulpa]

At this point, South Korea has the ball in its court and they need to make the decision of how to go forward.

If NK attacks US ships or soldiers, or passes nuke material to Iran, then we may have cause for unilateral action.

[sloopyinca]

Hey, remember when the federal court said they could slap a gps on your car without a warrant a few months back and there was much anger here?

Well, apparently there was enough anger at the appeals court to overturn that fucked-up decision.

Score: Libertarians 1 - Statists 2,378. At least we're on the fucking board!

[asdf]

Hell yea~

[Tulpa]

Bet your bottom dollar the SCOTUS is going to overturn.

[Tulpa]

Thomas and Ginsberg might vote on the side of the angels, but probably no one else. 7-2 for the government at least.

[sloopyinca]

I dunno. I'd like to see the 5-4 split on the appeals court and who were Dem- and Repub-appointed.

And Ginsberg has become such an apologist for statism recently, her vote isn't all that certain.

[Ska]

When the fuck are those libertarian guys going to recruit a decent goalkeeper?

[Brett L]

As a Blues fan, I can tell you it makes a huge difference.

[sloopyinca]

Haha. Not always. The Wings won two with Chris Osgood between the pipes.

[hmm]

Halak looks more and more like Riendeau (the human hole) everyday.

[Trespassers W]

Are you talking about hockey? Do they still do that?

[Brett L]

I'm not sure you could call what the Blues play "hockey".

[Mike M.]

How can this be happening? I thought the Magic Man was going to wave his healing arms and everyone was going to get along with each other and the entire world would be puppies, unicorns, and rainbows!

[Tulpa]

It's because the GOP didn't pass the START treaty.

[Wind Rider]

And they're holding up the DREAM act, too.

[sloopyinca]

Fucking racist war-mongers.

Did I mention racist? Yeah, they're racists!

[hmm]

So the GOP needs to START DREAMin'

[J sub D]

The only way to ameliorate North Korea's behavior is through China since N. Korea is China's puppet state.

It may be that the only way to get China on board is through credible threats of trade sanctions. That undesirable unintended consequences of such an action will occur are acknowledged. Better ideas for dealing with the clinically insane regime in North Korea are hereby solicited.

Sending any food or medicinal aid to the Kim Jong Il government is just plain stupid. If China is so worried about a massive influx of starving Koreans crossing the Yalu, they can spend some of the trillions they have in the bank to feed their vassals themselves.

[R C Dean]

Actually, given the Norks claim to have the capability to subject Seoul to an artillery barrage that would kill hundreds of thousands, I don't think a tactical nuclear strike on their artillery parks is the at all unreasonable.

In fact, I think its probably the only feasible option, unless you would prefer to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of South Koreans to maintain your moral vanity.

But I would limit my strike to tactical nukes over the artillery. No need to nuke anything else.

China would have a stroke, but at this point, they still aren't (quite) in a position to do anything about it. I think.

In the near term, I think we start talking with South Korea, Japan, and maybe even Taiwan about either helping them develop military nukes, or just transferring some of our extras to them. China won't like that at all, but it will at least give them a long-overdue incentive to rein in the Norks.

[Tulpa]

I agree with your general strategy. But wouldn't it be nice if, faced with a crisis such as this, we didn't have an overextended military from nearly 10 years of pointless wars and occupations?

[Wind Rider]

You're looking at it as the glass half empty. The other way of looking at it is that we have a huge battle hardened and tested military, while everyone else is sitting around with their fingers crossed hoping that their on-paper plans and training exercises will actually work if needed.

My guess is that IF push came to shove, we'd see Boogie to Baghdad II, the Pyongyang Road trip.

Oh, and screw the Pottery Barn Rule bullshit. The Kim family already broke the crap outta that country, and the South Koreans are looking like a pretty handy "occupation and rebuilding" force, imho.

Breakshit, then leave. I like that as a strategy.

[DanD]

The starving North Korean people, despite being brainwashed, are largely privy to what's going on with the regime and just how wonderful is it outside of their "paradise." If you take down the central power structure and lavish food upon the North Korean citizens by way of a professional South Korean army, you've got a peacefully reunified peninsula in one year.

[DanD]

I should have added, no need for nuclear weapons beyond tactical nuclear strikes on key military sites. Abundant food from an outside source will do more damage to North Korea's military than any weapon.

[John]

And the South Koreans have a big army and have been planning for decades on how to occupy North Korea. It would be a matter of national pride to do it. They would not want us to hang around. North Korea is one case where we really could wipe out the leadership and army and go home.

[DanD]

Yes, and I would be so happy to see that happen. I've read several books on what North Korean citizens go through on a daily basis, and it's just unbelievable.

[Abdul]

Plucky little economic engine that it is, SK just can't handle the poverty problems of NK.

[sloopyinca]

Which would result in the ChiComs coming in to take their share of NorKo lands leading to a bloodbath.

Face it, we're gonna have to be there for a SoKo occupation to be successful. Otherwise it turns into a land grab free-for-all.

[Nick]

If every South Korean gave one box of rice to a North Korean that would be more than they're used to. The whole world would be willing to throw money and food their way as long as the South was handing it out.

[sloopyinca]

Sorry, Nick, but I think China doesn't want to give up their influence that easily. They'd fight South Korean dominance on the peninsula pretty aggressively.
The rest of the sane world, yes. The rest of the world, no.

[Tulpa]

Maybe we should just give North Korea to Somalia.

[DJF]

"""But I would limit my strike to tactical nukes over the artillery.""

Their artillery is all along the North/South Korea border so you would have radiation drifting across South Korea.

[R C Dean]

Perhaps. Depends on the wind, I suppose. Still, the only artillery parks I care about are the ones in range of Seoul. Doubt the fallout would be kill more people than the artillery.

"Recovering" North Korea would be a gargantuan social and economic problem, making the reunification of Germany look like a walk in the park.

China, of course, would interfere at every opportunity, to weaken Korea.

[Wesley]

In the near term, I think we start talking with South Korea, Japan, and maybe even Taiwan about either helping them develop military nukes, or just transferring some of our extras to them.

Not that I'm against that at all, but wouldn't it violate virtually every part of the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty?

[R C Dean]

I think that treaty is already a dead letter in that theater, anyway.

[TrickyVic]

""I don't think a tactical nuclear strike on their artillery parks is the at all unreasonable.""

You nuke them, then if they have nukes, they can fire nukes back and point the finger at us for starting a nuclear war.

Their artillery can be taken out with conventional long range weapons.

[R C Dean]

Their artillery can be taken out with conventional long range weapons.

If conventional weapons can take them out in a matter of an hour or so, I say go for it. Any longer than that, and you're sacrificing South Korean lives even though you can stop the bombardment in minutes.

Japan would be in riots if we used nukes in their backyard.

(1) And?

(2) Would they really? After seeing the carnage in Seoul from even the brief bombardment that preceded the nuking of the artillery?

Wouldn't thermobaric bombs be enough to handle their artillery?

As I understand it, thermobarics are very particular in terms of when they work, since they depend on igniting a big cloud of vapor. If its windy, forget about it. And its windy in Korea a lot.

Plus, how long will it take to get enough thermobarics on target?

[Fr. Spike]

Japan would be in riots if we used nukes in their backyard. Wouldn't thermobaric bombs be enough to handle their artillery? I was under the impression that they were getting close to tactical nuke yield.

Given how much technology Taiwan has invested in nuclear power, I suspect they already has a nuke or two. China is on record as saying they'll invade the minute it looks like Taiwan is trying to get nuclear weapons, so you'd never hear about it if they have them. I'm not entirely sure Japan doesn't have any, for that matter.

[P Brooks]

The Irish bank liabilities are as extensive as they are largely on the basis of the deposits they accepted from overseas.

See also: Iceland

As me grandad used to tell me, "If it looks too good to be true, don't put all yer eggs in the one basket."

[R C Dean]

Bet your bottom dollar the SCOTUS is going to overturn.

The Wise Latina will be the swing vote, if its 5-4. And as an ex-prosecutor, she won't vote against the GPS.

[Tulpa]

Scalia, Sotomayor, Roberts, Alito, and Kagan will never vote against the govt on a case like this. It's already lost.

[robc]

Scalia voted against infrared searches. This might fall into same category.

[TrickyVic]

Didn't SCOTUS rule on a GPS case last term?

[Old Mexican]

Irish government collapses after bailout.

Could the world PLEASE give the US Gov a bailout???

[R C Dean]

We get one every time we hold a bond auction, OM.

[Old Mexican]

Re: R C Dean,

We get one every time we hold a bond auction, OM.

Yes, but that's boring... I mean a government-collapsing bailout, one where the lenders actually gloat.

[Aresen]

I kinda prefer the Romanian kind of government collapse, where the leaders go to the wall.

[Old Mexican]

Well, the similarities are striking: One first lady fancied herself a doctor in chemistry and biology, and the other one fancies herself a nutritionist . . .

[Old Mexican]

Pat-down procedures demonstrated on Capitol Hill.

"... because that's how a few congresspeople get off, nowadays..."

Eeeewwwwww!

[Pope Jimbo]

I'm starting to think that Pistole is actually working for our side as a double-agent. No way anyone could possibly be this dumb.

He said that several House staffers were uncomfortable and averted their eyes when the TSA demonstrated an enhanced pat-down in the room of 200 people.

"The dumbest part: they did two pat-down demonstrations ? male on male, and female on female," the House staffer said. And they used a young female TSA volunteer "and in front of a room of 200 people, they touched her breasts and her buttocks. People were averting their eyes. The TSA was trying to demonstrate 'this is not so bad,' but it made people so uncomfortable to watch, that people were averting their eyes."

"They shot themselves in the foot," the staffer continued.

[TrickyVic]

"""They shot themselves in the foot," the staffer continued.""

I could see that. After all, a congressman can get ran out of DC for less. Forget about touching, inappropriate emails can make you lose your job.

[Cuddly Soft Balls of Death]

And Gloria Allred thought it was awesome. Someone having a job that involves touching Gloria's junk, and "jobs that Americans just won't do" at the same time makes my brain hurt.

[Old Mexican]

Afghan peace talks marred by impostor claiming to be high-ranking Taliban.

"The worst part is that the bridge the negotiators were trying to buy as part of the deal did not materialize . . ."

[Troy]

We are never going to bomb North Korea. We only bomb brown people.

[DanD]

Bosnia?

[SeeSeaSeePee]

They're Muslim, so it counts.

[sloopyinca]

Germany never did shit to America.

[Aresen]

Don't forget the Hessians.

(If the rest of the world can hold a grudge over incidents hundreds of years ago, why not the US?)

[sloopyinca]

And didn't we already bomb NorKo once before?

And because the filthy Cubans sank the Maine, we had to take on Spain. They're not exactly what I'd call brown people.

I think Troy is a bit off his rocker. We are strictly EEO when it comes to bombing people.

[John]

Except declare war twice.

[Old Mexican]

No, Baltimore.

[That Son-of-a-Bitch Van Owen]

The US was bombing yellow people way before it was bombing brown people.

http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/hiroshima.htm

[sloopyinca]

And we were killing red people from day 1. Hell, America was killing Injuns before we were even America.

[Deformed people of Hiroshima]

Huh?

[American leaders]

The episode underscores the uncertain and even bizarre nature of the atmosphere in which Afghan and American leaders search for ways to bring the nine-year-old American-led war to an end.

How is it possible for us to end an American-led war???

** scratch heads **

[Larry]

they used a young female TSA volunteer "and in front of a room of 200 people, they touched her breasts and her buttocks.

She's probably got a great future when TSA is abolished.

[Rich]

Pistole told ABC that that incident should not have happened.

"There should never be a situation where that happens," Pistole said.

Hey, he's getting the message!

[sloopyinca]

I think the rest of his quote was "...to a reporter that can make us look bad."

He's not getting the message. If he were, they'd stop these searches until all agents were trained in proper procedure. No, he's just pissed that it happened to someone from the media. Notice he hasn't made a similar statement about sexual assaults that happened to people who don't work for ABC?

[Rich]

Note to self: Increase use of subtle sarcasm.

[sloopyinca]

Note to self: do not miss subtle sarcasm the first time around.

Sorry, Rich.

[P Brooks]

Board of Realtors' CNBC mouthpiece is saying mortgage lenders are being "too stringent" by only lending money to people who can pay it back.

Good grief.

[sloopyinca]

Racist!

[C'mon man]

U.S. taxpayers are such selfish assholes. Why can't we bailout AIG, I mean Goldman Sachs, I mean Ireland, er, I mean European bankers.

You people think about this while European bankers are forced to drink mere 1K bottles of Chardonnay over the holidays.

[P Brooks]

A TSA official contacted after the report said they were trying to look into the incident but were having a hard time because the ABC employee had not lodged a formal complaint. The TSA can't look into an incident without a formal complaint from the traveler, a spokesman said.

I think we can assume the formal complaint process is completely painless and streamlined; there is no conceivable reason to think somebody who is trying to catch a flight (and already consumed by apoplectic rage) wouldn't want to hang out with the TSA goons in order to fill out a lot of paperwork.

[Tulpa]

With the TSA's recent strategy of releasing video of checkpoint encounters to disprove false claims of abuse, we can safely assume that whenever they don't release video, the claim of abuse is true.

[Aresen]

OK, let's say that someone does object and does file a complaint.

Care to speculate on what will happen to that person the next time they go through the checkpoint?

[sloopyinca]

Anal probe?

[hmm]

filing out my formal complaint now!

[sloopyinca]

Meanwhile, Max and Tony are trolling priceline for daily deals...

[cynical]

NK vs. SK? City states are such a pain in the ass. Does SK even vote for us in global hegemony elections?

[John]

http://www.judicialwatch.org/b.....-pat-downs

DHS looking into exempting Muslims from the pat down. If this happens, there will be a revolt. I have a hard time believing it. Could they really be this stupid and arrogant? Of course they could. But this pushes even my credulity.

[MNG]

I agree here, that would be monumentally stupid.

[mad libertarian guy]

The we should count on it.

Anything done that can be construed as "monumentally stupid" has the US Federal government written all over it.

[I'm getting my burka ready]

I'm a male, non-Muslim.

[x,y]

Personally, I hope they do it. I don't see any other way to get the ignorant masses to pay attention for five minutes.

[cynical]

I kinda hope it leads to white people riots.

[JOe]

"I kinda hope it leads to white people riots"

That might get ugly I don't think that white people will burn down their own neighborhoods.

[generic Brand]

To me the worst thing in that link is that TSA San Diego "has launched an investigation into the 31-year-old software programmer who was not allowed to board the plane."

I didn't realize TSA had the authority to launch investigations against private individuals, especially those who chose not to fly.

[TrickyVic]

""DHS looking into exempting Muslims from the pat down. If this happens, there will be a revolt. ""

No pat down probably means scan is a must. DHS would love to execpt everyone from a pat down.

[TrickyVic]

Expect should be exempt.

[sloopyinca]

Oh, there's some mosquerbating going on over at FoxNews. Those filthy buggers are asking for government handouts to build the damn thing.

I know we all hate government money for shit like this when the free market can handle itself, but I gotta say "well played" to the ay-rabs on this one.

[Rich]

"He's going to take the money that I work for? That gets taken out of my paycheck, to fund something that I am completely and absolutely against? Not on my watch."

Nice targeted outrage.

[sloopyinca]

I hope they get the $5 mil. The amount of butthurt it would cause might actually result in a real examination of these programs by tea party (the tax ones, not the SoCon dildos) groups and stop the subsidizing of every other non-profit and advocacy group in America. That, and the pants-wetting is pretty fun to watch.

[Nick]

...said the traveler opposed to the TSA, the pacifist opposed to war, the homeowner opposed to public schools...

[sloopyinca]

+a tax credit.

[John]

Remember. These guys are moderates doing this for the best reasons. They aren't building it as a way to piss on the rest of the country. They just asked for the 9-11 grant by mistake. The nerve of asking for that grant shows that they don't have the money to build the place and are doing it for all of the worst reasons the people who objected this accused them of. Why else would they do it?

[MNG]

But how does it piss on this nation to have a place of worship built? We are famed for our welcoming of religion.

[Old Mexican]

Re: MNG,

We are famed for our welcoming of religion.

Maybe "we" should find something less silly to be famous for...

[John]

Because fanatical Muslims killed 3000 people next door. That has a symbolic power whether you like it or not. And asking for a development grant out of money that was intended to be used to rebuild from that attack is tone deaf to say the least.

You may think it is just fabulous. But a lot people don't. Ignoring that fact doesn't help things.

[generic Brand]

Except by "next door" you really mean down the block, around the corner, and another hundred yards further.

This "Ground Zero Mosque" is not within throwing distance of Ground Zero, and isn't even a mosque in the traditional sense. It's more like the JCC (Jewish Community Centers) they have all over the U.S.

[JOe]

"We are famed for our welcoming of religion"

Yes the mormons remember that.

[Steve]

Exactly.

[Tulpa]

The nerve of asking for that grant shows that they don't have the money to build the place and are doing it for all of the worst reasons the people who objected this accused them of.

Care to explain that leap of logic? It just means they want someone else to pay for it instead of paying for it themselves. That's as American as apple pie and Jesus these days.

Obviously, while I was a mosque supporter during the initial debate, if they're asking for taxpayer money to finance it they can go pound sand. But that should be our attitude toward every private developer regardless of what they're building.

[TrickyVic]

The purpose of the grant was to spawn economic growth in lower manhattan. Problem with grants in general aside, I'm opposed to giving any religious organization that grant. They don't spawn economic growth.

[televangelist]

Hey, they spawn my economic growth!

[sloopyinca]

I read somewhere that if the mosque was built, there was an expected increase in fertilizer sales in lower Manhattan. Oh, and copper wire, battery powered clocks and truck rentals.

I'll go try to find the link.

[Tulpa]

Neither do most of the recipients of such grants.

[hmm]

NK is just going through the penis waving of a the new guy taking charge. When you promote a whacko to the throne he has to prove his dong is the dong of all dongs, which leads to bombing and shelling shit.

[sloopyinca]

Don't tell that too the Obama admin. I'm sure they think that's one part of Obama he got from the black side of his family, making it much larger than any prior (white) president. We don't want him swinging it around Asia right now. Especially since the rest of the world is pretty certain it is flaccid.

[Tulpa]

I read somewhere that James Buchanan was hung like an elephant.

[NoVAHockey]

TSA employee kidnaps, sexually assaults woman (that he knew):

http://www.ajc.com/news/clayto.....51953.html

[R C Dean]

TSA employee kidnaps, sexually assaults woman:

Doesn't that happen every time you are told that you may not leave the screening area without a "patdown"?

[RyanXXX]

Last time we attacked North Korea, China got involved, and nukes almost flew.

Now, both China and North Korea have nukes, but people on this board are calling for another Korean war. Do you guys masturbate to Dr. Strangelove or what?

[nekoxgirl]

No fighting in the war room!

[Who's calling for war?]

Obama? He's not on this board except maybe as an alias.

[RyanXXX]

John, Cytotoxic, and the other usual suspect hawks

[Tulpa]

Things have changed a lot since 1952. War was in China's interest back then, but it's not anymore.

[RyanXXX]

To defend their client state (North Korea) against a global competitor (the U.S.A) isn't in their interests?

[????? ??????]

Thanks