The anthropologist danah boyd points out a problem with some well-meaning efforts to prevent bullying:
Bill Watterson
I attend conferences and hear from parents and journalists who are talking about the bullying pandemic. And then I talk with teenagers about their social dramas, producing the interactions that adults identify as bullying. I hear from well-meaning adults about how they want to create interventions to help teenagers with bullying. And then I hear teens complain about the assemblies and messaging that they're forced to listen to that don't even begin to resonate with them. Whenever I talk to folks about bullying, I'm forced to confront the fact that adults and teens are talking past one another….
When I first started interviewing teenagers about bullying, they would dismiss my questions. "Bullying is so middle/elementary school," they'd say. "There's no bullying problem at my school," they'd say. And then, as our interview would continue, I'd hear about all sorts of interactions that sounded like bullying. I quickly realized that we were speaking different languages. They'd be talking about "starting drama" or "getting into fights" or "getting into my business" or "being mean." They didn't see rumors or gossip as bullying, regardless of whether or not it happened online. And girls didn't see fighting over boys or ostracizing one another because of boys as bullying. They didn't even see producing fight videos as bullying.
Part of the problem, boyd adds, is that a lot of "bullying" is mutual. Many times "one person thinks that they're not at fault and that they're simply a victim of bullying. But those who are engaged in the bullying see it entirely differently. They blame the person and see what they're doing as retaliation. None of this is communicated, of course, so things can quickly spiral out of control without anyone really knowing where it all began." Obviously this isn't the only sort of bullying that goes on, but it's common, and the current campaign misses it entirely.
boyd doesn't offer any suggestions as to what would diminish bullying. I don't have any proposals either, though I suspect that the culture of student-on-student abuse is baked into the very structure of many schools. I do feel fairly confident that the problem hasn't been invented that a student assembly can solve. Unless the problem is no more complicated than "How many kids can we fit into this gymnasium?"
Update: Several commenters are taking the kids' side in the dueling definitions. That's fine -- I don't want to get hung up on semantics -- but it also underlines the takeaway lesson of boyd's post: the disconnect between those student assemblies and the students' lives.
Once you've identified that communication gap, where do you go from there? Commenter "minor miner mimer" writes:
Learning to cope is a critical part of adolescence. Obviously, schools should prevent violence and property damage and punishment should be meted out when appropriate, but kids, like adults, will figure most things by themselves.
I agree. Solutions and survival strategies are far more likely to emerge from the students themselves than to be handed down from on high. But that hardly means that grown-ups -- particularly parents -- shouldn't pay attention to what the kids are doing, reinforce the good ideas, and dole out advice when it's appropriate.
And maybe adults should think about the ways they might be piling on the problems they say they want to diminish. Cliquishness, status hierarchies, and the like tend to be more intense at schools than in less collectivist settings. In a better world, administrators would spend more time thinking about why that might be so and less time grandstanding at feel-good assemblies.
Start your day with Reason. Get a daily brief of the most important stories and trends every weekday morning when you subscribe to Reason Roundup.
Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com
posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary
period.
Subscribe
here to preserve your ability to comment. Your
Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the
digital
edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do
not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments
do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and
ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
The problem is that the students and administrators are using different definitions.
To the students, "bullying" is when someone physically threatens you or physically harms you, in order to be in a superior position.
To the administrators, "bullying" is when any student chooses who his own friends are instead of "embracing everyone in love and respect".
The kids are using a negative-liberty construction ["There's no bullying as long as everyone is safe"] and the administrators are using a positive-liberty construction ["Bullying exists as long as anyone feels excluded from any social interaction for any reason whatsoever, and for as long as anyone thinks mean things about anyone else"].
Bingo. Look at how boyd is shocked that her definition of bullying (which encompasses almost any social interaction that is not universally positive) is not shared by students.
I don't think any of the examples she cites amount to nothing more than not liking someone. They all involve picking on other people, though not always in physical ways.
The more interesting point here, though, is the disconnect between those student assemblies and the students' lives.
The more interesting point here, though, is the disconnect between those student assemblies and the students' lives.
I suspect that if a thorough survey was done of all the students and their parents it would reveal that most people think that bullying in school is a freakishly weird thing to be obsessing about. This is a case of political weirdos imposing their particular policy fetish on normal people.
You know what? Rumors and gossip aren't bullying. Ostracism isn't bullying. Fights between equals who are just pissed off at each other, and who aren't using the fights as social tools designed to create a scapegoat who can be safely abused to amuse everyone, aren't bullying.
Some of them aren't nice, but they aren't bullying.
They didn't have the internet or Facebook when I went to high school, but let's say I went again now. And let's say John also went with me. And one day, because John wanted to impress Sarah Palin [who also somehow decided to go to our school], he decided to stuff me into a locker and then tell everyone about it at lunch to show off for her. And then I went home and set up a Facebook page devoted to how John was a no-good dick.
The problem is that the bullying statutes people like this boyd dingbat are writing would define both of our actions as bullying. And only one of them is.
You know what? Rumors and gossip aren't bullying. Ostracism isn't bullying.
Those aren't bullying when done by boys to other boys. That is exactly how middle school girls bully each other.
I thought just like you did back when i was in middle and high school--that bullying involves some element of phsyical intimidation.
I didn't know myself until I started working in schools as an adult. Interacitons between early teenage girls is pretty harsh. They have some drive to identify a pecking order and strictly enforce it. There were some lunchrooms that had more psychological torture than the Russian Roulette scenes from the Deer Hunter.
I'll be seeing Phelps in a few weeks. He's scheduled to protest us Jews forgetting about our debt to Christ for murdering him, and university students for being lustful, slothful, and greedy. Any ideas on how I should great such a delightful person?
It's the just part of the process of indoctrination into the belief in social justice. Luckily, it doesn't seem to be taking. They get better results in college though.
There are forms of bullying that do not involve physical abuse or threats.
However, the 'solution' proposed - making kids seek refuge in authority - is worse than the problem. It just creates a sense of dependency on authority, which is very nice for power-seekers, but does nothing to create confident, self-reliant individuals.
There are forms of bullying that do not involve physical abuse or threats.
There really aren't, you know.
There were kids at my school I was afraid of. If I had been absolutely 100% confident in my physical safety, I would have fucking laughed at anything else you wanted to think up.
The "other forms of bullying" are only bullying when the threat of physical violence is backing them up. You think I would have cared for one second what someone said about me if I could just tell them their mom was a cunt in return, with absolutely no threat of a physical confrontation? Man, that wouldn't have been bullying; that would have been fun.
This. Had a recent hi-profile incident in MI with a young lady who committed suicide. Long story short, it was because of "teh bullying".
While sad, all I kept thinking was, "Nothing will ever stop kids from doing stuff like this, and if kids are offing themselves because of 'sticks and stones', they had waaaaaay bigger issues going on."
My concern is that, inevtiably, we'll see rules/regulations/laws that make previously "normal" behavior into "bullying", and that it won't "fix" anything. Althought I'm preaching to the choir here at H&R, I know...
hey! oh, you said 'she'. carry on then. i agree, women must use the shift key, as porn addiction which causes one handed typing is a male burden, for the most part.
so thats why i type with one hand? i thought it was b/c im holding a sandwhich. mmm. still not sure why warty is bullying poor danah. he'll ruin her self-esteem, or something. i feel stupider for having typed this post.
[B]oyd doesn't offer any suggestions as to what would diminish bullying. I don't have any proposals either, though I suspect that the culture of student-on-student abuse is baked into the very structure of many schools.
Yes, it's called "Compulsory Education."
"When I [Danah Boyd] first started interviewing teenagers about bullying, they would dismiss my questions. 'Bullying is so middle/elementary school,' they'd say. 'There's no bullying problem at my school,' they'd say. And then, as our interview would continue, I'd hear about all sorts of interactions that sounded like bullying."
That's because you were interviewing only the cool kids.
This. Combating bullying is just the spin used to justify browbeating kids into accepting gays as an unassailable victim class that needs special protection. It is not a coincidence that Obama's "safe school czar" had strong ties to people wanting to "queerify" elementary schools.
You are so close to right, herr turtle and his neck. They are trying to protect the gay kids, among others. And if by "silencing criticism" you mean allowing the gay kids to feel safe at school, then you may be right on that account as well. Regardless, I do not like you.
"Allowing gay kids to feel safe at school" is just more double-speak you Orwellian oppressor faggots use to impose your perversions on everyone else. Anyone caught spouting you child-molesting buttfuckers' bully propaganda should be torn limb from limb and ground up for dog food. That means you too, cocksucker.
Fuck you and all your statist faggot buddies, you totalitarian twink. I hope you spend eternity getting ass-raped with red hot pokers in hell.
From Growing Up Gay/Growing Up Lesbian: Pages 110-111
"I just remember, when I was twelve or so, Derek walking into my room and finding me making out with Timmy Musseo. And he just said excuse me and closed the door."
Philip's jaw dropped. "You were making out with boys when you were twelve?"
"Eleven," Eliot said. "Geoffrey and Derek only found out when I was twelve."
"Then how old were you when you first had sex?"
Eliot shrugged. "I'm not sure," he said. "How do you define sex? If orgasm is the criterion, twelve. If anal or oral penetration is necessary, fifteen."
"And was that with Timmy Musseo?"
"No, no," Eliot said "Timmy Musseo had a girlfriend by that time. My first experience was with a much older man, a friend of Derek's. He and Geoffrey never found out about it. Probably they still don't know."
"How old is older?"
"Oh, let's see," Eliot said. "When I was fifteen, he must have been twenty-nine, thirty. My age now. He came and stayed with me at the house whenever Derek and Geoffrey went away."
"Did he seduce you?"
"I seduced him," Eliot said, and laughed. "Oh, he wanted to for as long as I did. But I think he was afraid Derek would send him up for statutory rape or something. I was irresistible at fifteen. I kept asking him to give me massages, playing the little nubile waif. And finally?well, he couldn't hold back anymore." He sighed. "It was a wild night. We did everything."
What a nice bit of light reading! GLSEN wants to make sure all you kids read it so you'll be good little citizens.
Now read it, you illiterate little bastards! It's the law! Also, get your pants down and come sit on my stalagmite, kid, or I report what intolerant little heteronormative patriarchalist Christofascist counter-revolutionary bullies you are to the School Safety Czar!
I'll tell you what, I'm pretty sick of all that "it gets better" shit all over my facebook news feed.
IMO, if all it takes for you to off yourself is a few idiots making fun of your sexual orientation, you probably made the right decision. Real Life would have driven you mad.
Why does Walker accept the premise that bullying is problem that needs to be "fixed" by schools? People are sometimes mean toward one another; welcome to life. Some people say that Rahm Emmanuel is a bully. Trying to protect your snowflake from getting their feelings hurt is a great way to produce a disfunctional adult.
boyd doesn't offer any suggestions as to what would diminish bullying. I don't have any proposals either
Make nicer people. How about reinstituting prayer in school to remind kids to be more polite?
Why does Walker accept the premise that bullying is problem that needs to be "fixed" by schools?
I don't think I do. I think it's a problem that schools are probably powerless to fix, though there are individual situations that schools can probably end or diminish. Indeed, as I wrote, I suspect that schools are often part of the problem.
Trying to protect your snowflake from getting their feelings hurt is a great way to produce a disfunctional adult.
So is just telling them to suck it up. But yes, I'm more interested in solutions (and survival strategies) that emerge from the students themselves than are handed down from on high.
I meant to put quotes around the word "problem". Life is full of power struggles, hurt feelings, competition, ridicule, disappointments and injustice. Learning to cope is a critical part of adolescence. Obviously, schools should prevent violence and property damage and punishment should be meted out when appropriate, but kids, like adults, will figure most things by themselves. There will be tears, but that is a part of growing up.
kids, like adults, will figure most things by themselves
I agree. But it's also worth looking at ways schools are reinforcing cliquishness, status hierarchies, etc., which always seem to be more intense in schools than in less collectivist settings. Naturally, administrators would rather grandstand at feel-good assemblies.
So what you're saying is schools should mitigate and contain clique-ish behavior rather than reinforce it? Sounds noble but I don't the foggiest idea how to do that short of ending compulsory education.
Isn't it true that in any random, large group of people cliques form? I'm trying to remember any situation that I have encountered in which people haven't formed cliques. I can't think of any except in those cases in which the entire crowd is a clique with a common interest or with a shared system of values.
Hierarchies also seem to form naturally. The differences between individuals guarantee it. A collectivist setting seeks to erase the differences so isn't the real issue the futility of trying to impose uniformity?
Yes - intensity. Cliques form in the real world, but clique wars are less common and ostracism tends to be less painful. Even in the workplace, it's easier to separate your life at the office or factory from your life outside the firm. (Or to find a new workplace altogether.)
Obviously there are exceptions, variations, etc., but as a general tendency I think this is true.
Learning to cope is a critical part of adolescence.
I think the schools should be preparing kids for adult social interaction.
That means we should make their social interactions mirror what will exist in the real world as much as possible.
There is no social interaction in the real world [other than that between nation states] where anyone needs to know how to "fight their own battles" or whatever. I have no problem teaching kids to immediately involve authority figures, in cases where an adult interaction of the same type would involve the police or attorneys.
If someone comes up to me on a city bus and demands my lunch money, or smacks me in the head because it will entertain my friend, in the adult world the immediate response should be 1) call the cops 2) guys get tased 3) enjoy failing your CORI check for the rest of your worthless lives. I think the schools should prepare kids for THAT.
What Fluffy said. On the Intertubes, we can call each other names, etc., yet I suspect that if we interacted personally on a day to day basis, the insults would be minimal, only between trusted friends. And not out of fear of getting into a fight, just the common courtesy that's necessary in the adult world.
Kids should be taught that if they can't treat someone with respect, they should just leave them the hell alone. You don't have to be everyone's friend, but not liking someone doesn't give you the right to punch them.
I agree with this-assault shouldn't be tolerated just because the victim and the perpetrator are both underage. Too often the schools seem to regard this as unserious and the bullies know it. Make real (physical) bullying have consequences and you could curtail a lot of the problems in schools.
In my real adult world an attempt to rob me would likely be met with two rounds in the center of mass. Seems a bit harsh for the playground, but I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
[i]girls didn't see fighting over boys or ostracizing one another because of boys as bullying. They didn't even see producing fight videos as bullying.[/i]
Neither do I, unless the fight vids are being made with only one consenting party. Otherwise, it's two chicks enter, hopefully one chick gets beat down. And let her watch the vid to see what she did wrong.
"There's no bullying problem at my school," they'd say.
"However, I was eventually able to convince bully and browbeat them into accepting my superior understanding of the infantile misery of their lives. They were grateful; so very, very grateful. Many wept, and surrendered their will to me."
An announcement from the principle that any student who lays hands on another student, or appropriates or damages the property of another student, will be suspended for a week, first offense, and expelled, second offense.
Period. Students who report to teachers or principals "emotional abuse", "drama", some kid expressing his dislike for another kid, will be ignored. Solve your own social problems, kiddos, we've got an educational institution to run, here.
That is such a patriarchal way to handle things. To suggest such a clearly insensitive policy ought to land you in several weeks of sensitivity training. These kids don't off themselves because of physical assault or property damage...
I'm waffling here, my cognitive dissonance can only go so far. Of course your solution is the right one. But the urge to micromanage kids into being something they are not is pretty central to current elementary education.
That is no fun. In high school we had a regimen at lunch time we referred to as scuffle matches which were performed in a large restroom near the lunch room. No formal rules except for punching and slapping not being allowed, grappling and noogies were the keys to victory. Also, at the end, whoever was declared the loser was ganged up on by the rest for a swirlie dunk. I'm proud to say my head never came close to the toilet, but they did removed a shoe one time and flush it instead.
Yeah, my husband's strategy in high school was go in Monday morning, beat someone up, get a 10 day suspension, and call his job to tell them he was available for double shifts for the next two weeks. Yes, he was an asshole back in the day, but the bigger point is that a lot of students don't see suspension as punishment.
No he was not, if he spent his time doing something a little MORE productive than sitting in a school room listening to some loser that's not intelligent enough to hold a real job, for six hours straight.
Except for the part where he randomly beat someone up so that he could get what he wanted. Pretty sure that qualifies as being an asshole. He probably would've just dropped out of school, but he didn't have the balls to stand up to daddy so he beat up someone weaker than him instead.
Close enough, which is why I said he was an asshole. I wasn't lying. If I'd been in high school with him I doubt we'd be married now, but he's one of those rare people who realized his default behavior pattern wasn't acceptable and changed it.
I think I know the answer but I'll ask anyway:
As principal you'd be totally cool with kids constantly picking on, say, the gay boy or the Muslim girl as long as there were no physical threats?
One of my friends wrote an essay during our senior year for the school newspaper about the various cliques. It was basically a "fuck you" to the popular girls (to any high school kids reading this [ha!] - be nice to yearbook and newspaper geeks - they control the media). Anyways, the administration was shocked - shocked! - that there were cliques. In high school, of all places! They imiediately put together a series of assemblies for the following school year, determined to break up these cliques (thank kee-riste we had already graduated). And this was in the 80's.
From a former "victim". - I was a tall, smart kid - aced my classes - and wasn't beloved by my peers. Funny thing - started lifting weights packed on over 100 lbs (started as a sickly 180) in 6yrs -and my bullies left me alone. Real fun time was when I came home from college and bumped into the three guys that made school hell. It was weird though - I thought if I ever saw them... In the end they looked scared and I never said more than get the f out of my way.
I was a nerd who dressed really weird. Thing is, I was never bullied by anyone, male or female, because I absolutely, 100% owned my weirdness. It kind of loses its fun for the bullies when you just smile when they call you a freak.
And then I hear teens complain about the assemblies and messaging that they're forced to listen to that don't even begin to resonate with them.
It's the state that's doing the bullying.
I was a victim of the state-sector bullying in school much more than any cliquishness or student bullying. I was in the eighth grade when the Challenger space shuttle exploded. The government sector teachers' union wanted to show how sensitive they were by making all the students sign a condolence poster for the teacher who died. I, being a lazy contrarian bastard, ignored it during my lunch hour, and when one of the teachers overheard that I hadn't signed it, I was cajoled into signing the damn thing.
The teachers didn't give a shit about the six non-teachers who died on that shuttle, and if I knew then what I know now, I would have written on the poster that I was signing under duress and that I thought it was wicked that the non-teachers weren't getting our condolences.
What worked in my high school (1980s) was someone starting a rumor that the biggest bully in school picked fights because he was a super-repressed gay dude. It was maybe the only time an entire community's rampant, pathetic homophobia was put to positive use.
Like (apparently) everyone else who frequents H & R, I should have been bully-bait in high school - skinny, uncoordinated, etc.
Looking back on it, I hit upon the exact same strategy I would expect to use in a penitentiary - I traded favors (and no, not those favors). I helped the li'l thugs with their academics, and they didn't punch me. Everybody won.
Did the same R.C. Over time, I "collected" my own little group of bullies who kept the other bullies at bay. Pretty neat arrangement. The other problem I had was my parents being so against me defending myself. Once when I did, it ended the bullying from that guy. Today you get suspended for defending yourself and I would have been in major shit with my Dad.
A lot of the parents complaining about their children getting bullied need to take a step back and start looking in the fucking mirror.
Kids who are bullied have confidence and social issues for a number of reasons but upbringing is a big part of that.
It's easy to toss the problem to Washington and make them create an anti-bullying task force. It's a bit harder to question your parenting decisions and teach your children to instead deal with their issues with their peers on their own.
I keep hearing these stories of parents who are blaming everyone else for their child killing themselves. Guess what? If it's not your kids fault then you're person of interest number two in this scenario, not the rest of us.
It's easy to toss the problem to Washington and make them create an anti-bullying task force.
With agenda items like this the demand curve is never first risen by the general public. Bullying has been around since Cain and Able, but it has come to the fore as an issue only recently. Some public advocates figured a way for it to serve as a stepping stone for their more over arching purpose. In the meantime, the public gets played. Weird Soviet like assemblies are orchestrated in high schools through out the land. Reeducation classes for violators. What agenda would that be? Some mention gay tolerance, and that is certainly a big part of it. However, that too is a mere stepping stone towards diminishing the power of informal networks to strengthen the hand of the public sector.
"Anti-bullying task force" is just another name for "faggot gestapo." First thing we need to do when these bastards are overthrown is order every such government "squad" rounded up and sent to the firing squad. Janet Napolitano, "School Safety Czar" Kevin Jennings (The literary kiddie porno peddler), the SEIU, Organizing For America, and every other totalitarian organization this fascist regime has developed must all be publicly executed as a warning to other fascists that we patriots don't tolerate their statist commie traitor shit around here.
I just found something the GLSEN wants all you little brats to read:
"I just remember, when I was twelve or so, Derek walking into my room and finding me making out with Timmy Musseo. And he just said excuse me and closed the door."
Philip's jaw dropped. "You were making out with boys when you were twelve?"
"Eleven," Eliot said. "Geoffrey and Derek only found out when I was twelve."
"Then how old were you when you first had sex?"
Eliot shrugged. "I'm not sure," he said. "How do you define sex? If orgasm is the criterion, twelve. If anal or oral penetration is necessary, fifteen."
"And was that with Timmy Musseo?"
"No, no," Eliot said "Timmy Musseo had a girlfriend by that time. My first experience was with a much older man, a friend of Derek's. He and Geoffrey never found out about it. Probably they still don't know."
"How old is older?"
"Oh, let's see," Eliot said. "When I was fifteen, he must have been twenty-nine, thirty. My age now. He came and stayed with me at the house whenever Derek and Geoffrey went away."
"Did he seduce you?"
"I seduced him," Eliot said, and laughed. "Oh, he wanted to for as long as I did. But I think he was afraid Derek would send him up for statutory rape or something. I was irresistible at fifteen. I kept asking him to give me massages, playing the little nubile waif. And finally?well, he couldn't hold back anymore." He sighed. "It was a wild night. We did everything."
I just found something the GLSEN wants all you little brats to read:
"I just remember, when I was twelve or so, Derek walking into my room and finding me making out with Timmy Musseo. And he just said excuse me and closed the door."
Philip's jaw dropped. "You were making out with boys when you were twelve?"
"Eleven," Eliot said. "Geoffrey and Derek only found out when I was twelve."
"Then how old were you when you first had sex?"
Eliot shrugged. "I'm not sure," he said. "How do you define sex? If orgasm is the criterion, twelve. If anal or oral penetration is necessary, fifteen."
"And was that with Timmy Musseo?"
"No, no," Eliot said "Timmy Musseo had a girlfriend by that time. My first experience was with a much older man, a friend of Derek's. He and Geoffrey never found out about it. Probably they still don't know."
"How old is older?"
"Oh, let's see," Eliot said. "When I was fifteen, he must have been twenty-nine, thirty. My age now. He came and stayed with me at the house whenever Derek and Geoffrey went away."
"Did he seduce you?"
"I seduced him," Eliot said, and laughed. "Oh, he wanted to for as long as I did. But I think he was afraid Derek would send him up for statutory rape or something. I was irresistible at fifteen. I kept asking him to give me massages, playing the little nubile waif. And finally?well, he couldn't hold back anymore." He sighed. "It was a wild night. We did everything."
I wrote "Because, It's Just Good Manners!, which is available as a free download from my website. A challenge was issued to students and teachers to practice good manners for one week. The theory being you can not bully and use good manners at the same time. There is also a direct correlation between the decrease in good manners and the increase in bullying. Anyway, the feedback I got was that teachers were not qualified to teach good manners. I was also informed that teachers were no longer permitted to correct students for fear of upsetting them or affecting their psyche to the point they may never survive or might commit suicide.
Instead, schools are teaching martial arts to the students and teachers.
With this attitude the problem will only get worse.
"I was born on Thanksgiving Day (November 24) 1977 in Altoona, Pennsylvania. My birth name was "danah michele mattas" (spelled all funky because my mother loved typographical balance)."
I just wonder why she insists on this non-capitalization of the first letters of her name. Is not that strange? Maybe it has something to do with Altoona?
Bullies are almost always somewhere in the middle of the social hierarchy. As a parent, one of the things I worry about is the safety of my child especially when I'm not physically with her. And as proactive measures against bully, I will always make sure to monitor my child in order to guide her from any possible situations that might occur along in her way. In fact as one way of securing her safety, I provided her a tool for her safety that enables her to ask immediate help, and she has a direct access to emergency services. My family safety protection check this out http://SafeTREC.com/
The problem is that the students and administrators are using different definitions.
To the students, "bullying" is when someone physically threatens you or physically harms you, in order to be in a superior position.
To the administrators, "bullying" is when any student chooses who his own friends are instead of "embracing everyone in love and respect".
The kids are using a negative-liberty construction ["There's no bullying as long as everyone is safe"] and the administrators are using a positive-liberty construction ["Bullying exists as long as anyone feels excluded from any social interaction for any reason whatsoever, and for as long as anyone thinks mean things about anyone else"].
Bingo. Look at how boyd is shocked that her definition of bullying (which encompasses almost any social interaction that is not universally positive) is not shared by students.
I don't think any of the examples she cites amount to nothing more than not liking someone. They all involve picking on other people, though not always in physical ways.
The more interesting point here, though, is the disconnect between those student assemblies and the students' lives.
The more interesting point here, though, is the disconnect between those student assemblies and the students' lives.
I suspect that if a thorough survey was done of all the students and their parents it would reveal that most people think that bullying in school is a freakishly weird thing to be obsessing about. This is a case of political weirdos imposing their particular policy fetish on normal people.
I don't think so.
You know what? Rumors and gossip aren't bullying. Ostracism isn't bullying. Fights between equals who are just pissed off at each other, and who aren't using the fights as social tools designed to create a scapegoat who can be safely abused to amuse everyone, aren't bullying.
Some of them aren't nice, but they aren't bullying.
They didn't have the internet or Facebook when I went to high school, but let's say I went again now. And let's say John also went with me. And one day, because John wanted to impress Sarah Palin [who also somehow decided to go to our school], he decided to stuff me into a locker and then tell everyone about it at lunch to show off for her. And then I went home and set up a Facebook page devoted to how John was a no-good dick.
The problem is that the bullying statutes people like this boyd dingbat are writing would define both of our actions as bullying. And only one of them is.
You know what? Rumors and gossip aren't bullying. Ostracism isn't bullying.
Those aren't bullying when done by boys to other boys. That is exactly how middle school girls bully each other.
I thought just like you did back when i was in middle and high school--that bullying involves some element of phsyical intimidation.
I didn't know myself until I started working in schools as an adult. Interacitons between early teenage girls is pretty harsh. They have some drive to identify a pecking order and strictly enforce it. There were some lunchrooms that had more psychological torture than the Russian Roulette scenes from the Deer Hunter.
"Interacitons . . . is. . . "
Maybe I need the refresher in middle school English too.
Those aren't bullying when done by boys to other boys. That is exactly how middle school girls bully each other.
SEXIST!
But seriously, what difference does it make if it's girls or boys?
No physical threat is no physical threat.
"But the other kids don't like me!" So what? That might be unpleasant, but it's not bullying.
Did the voters "bully" all the losing candidates in the recent elections?
Are you "bullying" the Fred Phelps church because you ostracize them and don't invite them to sleep over at your house?
I'll be seeing Phelps in a few weeks. He's scheduled to protest us Jews forgetting about our debt to Christ for murdering him, and university students for being lustful, slothful, and greedy. Any ideas on how I should great such a delightful person?
*greet
It's the just part of the process of indoctrination into the belief in social justice. Luckily, it doesn't seem to be taking. They get better results in college though.
And how, exactly, would one protect the delicate dears from hurt feelings? Brave New World-style drugging of students into docile harmony?
On second thought, I think that might be the actual plan.
There are forms of bullying that do not involve physical abuse or threats.
However, the 'solution' proposed - making kids seek refuge in authority - is worse than the problem. It just creates a sense of dependency on authority, which is very nice for power-seekers, but does nothing to create confident, self-reliant individuals.
IOW, the kind of people who would never allow their fat pensions and over loaded support staffs to occur in the first place.
There are forms of bullying that do not involve physical abuse or threats.
There really aren't, you know.
There were kids at my school I was afraid of. If I had been absolutely 100% confident in my physical safety, I would have fucking laughed at anything else you wanted to think up.
The "other forms of bullying" are only bullying when the threat of physical violence is backing them up. You think I would have cared for one second what someone said about me if I could just tell them their mom was a cunt in return, with absolutely no threat of a physical confrontation? Man, that wouldn't have been bullying; that would have been fun.
Thus explaining why Fluffy is a such a regular commentor around here.
Exactly.
If you want to know what high school with reliable physical security would look like, look no further than H&R.
I'm reasonably certain they'd crack down on obscenity harder in our fictional high school.
fuck them.
Leaving aside the nuances of what does and does not constitute bullying, I think you would agree that the nannyist approach does more harm than good?
Fluffy seems to have it right.
It is at least encouraging that the students have a reasonable idea what bullying is.
the culture of student-on-student abuse is baked into the very structure of many schools. the human brain.
FIFY
This. Had a recent hi-profile incident in MI with a young lady who committed suicide. Long story short, it was because of "teh bullying".
While sad, all I kept thinking was, "Nothing will ever stop kids from doing stuff like this, and if kids are offing themselves because of 'sticks and stones', they had waaaaaay bigger issues going on."
My concern is that, inevtiably, we'll see rules/regulations/laws that make previously "normal" behavior into "bullying", and that it won't "fix" anything. Althought I'm preaching to the choir here at H&R, I know...
So, which kind of "bullying" is TSA's "Gropegate"?
Also, "danah boyd", yet "Dr. boyd". Nice.
Never argue with a six-year-old who shaves, and never listen to someone who doesn't capitalize her name properly.
hey! oh, you said 'she'. carry on then. i agree, women must use the shift key, as porn addiction which causes one handed typing is a male burden, for the most part.
so thats why i type with one hand? i thought it was b/c im holding a sandwhich. mmm. still not sure why warty is bullying poor danah. he'll ruin her self-esteem, or something. i feel stupider for having typed this post.
don't worry, you are a pancake, nobody expects french toast levels of discourse from you.
ooh, wwtdd.com has new nudie pics of jessica alba. this might take two hands! be gone a while!
Oh no, pancakes, look what just came in. It's your country cousin. Try not to be too embarrassed.
Hi dere! How y'all doin?
Everyone who's not a cockroach really should use the shift key. Archy gets a pass, but not Dinah.
hey fuck you.
you're a rapist.
"Never argue with a six-year-old who shaves"
+1000 for the Calvin & Hobbes reference.
Yes, it's called "Compulsory Education."
That's because you were interviewing only the cool kids.
"Bully" is being co-opted by those who would like to silence any criticism of the gay community. See Joy Behar.
This. Combating bullying is just the spin used to justify browbeating kids into accepting gays as an unassailable victim class that needs special protection. It is not a coincidence that Obama's "safe school czar" had strong ties to people wanting to "queerify" elementary schools.
You are so close to right, herr turtle and his neck. They are trying to protect the gay kids, among others. And if by "silencing criticism" you mean allowing the gay kids to feel safe at school, then you may be right on that account as well. Regardless, I do not like you.
"Allowing gay kids to feel safe at school" is just more double-speak you Orwellian oppressor faggots use to impose your perversions on everyone else. Anyone caught spouting you child-molesting buttfuckers' bully propaganda should be torn limb from limb and ground up for dog food. That means you too, cocksucker.
Fuck you and all your statist faggot buddies, you totalitarian twink. I hope you spend eternity getting ass-raped with red hot pokers in hell.
From Growing Up Gay/Growing Up Lesbian: Pages 110-111
What a nice bit of light reading! GLSEN wants to make sure all you kids read it so you'll be good little citizens.
Now read it, you illiterate little bastards! It's the law! Also, get your pants down and come sit on my stalagmite, kid, or I report what intolerant little heteronormative patriarchalist Christofascist counter-revolutionary bullies you are to the School Safety Czar!
I'll tell you what, I'm pretty sick of all that "it gets better" shit all over my facebook news feed.
IMO, if all it takes for you to off yourself is a few idiots making fun of your sexual orientation, you probably made the right decision. Real Life would have driven you mad.
"I suspect that the culture of student-on-student abuse is baked into the very structure of many schools."
You should read Ayn Rand's essay, "The Comprachicos." She talks about how the idea of student cliques is *taught* (covertly) from preschool on.
Why does Walker accept the premise that bullying is problem that needs to be "fixed" by schools? People are sometimes mean toward one another; welcome to life. Some people say that Rahm Emmanuel is a bully. Trying to protect your snowflake from getting their feelings hurt is a great way to produce a disfunctional adult.
boyd doesn't offer any suggestions as to what would diminish bullying. I don't have any proposals either
Make nicer people. How about reinstituting prayer in school to remind kids to be more polite?
Why does Walker accept the premise that bullying is problem that needs to be "fixed" by schools?
I don't think I do. I think it's a problem that schools are probably powerless to fix, though there are individual situations that schools can probably end or diminish. Indeed, as I wrote, I suspect that schools are often part of the problem.
Trying to protect your snowflake from getting their feelings hurt is a great way to produce a disfunctional adult.
So is just telling them to suck it up. But yes, I'm more interested in solutions (and survival strategies) that emerge from the students themselves than are handed down from on high.
I meant to put quotes around the word "problem". Life is full of power struggles, hurt feelings, competition, ridicule, disappointments and injustice. Learning to cope is a critical part of adolescence. Obviously, schools should prevent violence and property damage and punishment should be meted out when appropriate, but kids, like adults, will figure most things by themselves. There will be tears, but that is a part of growing up.
kids, like adults, will figure most things by themselves
I agree. But it's also worth looking at ways schools are reinforcing cliquishness, status hierarchies, etc., which always seem to be more intense in schools than in less collectivist settings. Naturally, administrators would rather grandstand at feel-good assemblies.
more intense in schools than in less collectivist settings
Hmm. You may just have hit upon something there, Jesse.
So what you're saying is schools should mitigate and contain clique-ish behavior rather than reinforce it? Sounds noble but I don't the foggiest idea how to do that short of ending compulsory education.
more intense in schools than in less collectivist settings...
...and in less-collectivist schools, such as Montessori schools, which teach kids how to be individuals and not part of a herd.
Isn't it true that in any random, large group of people cliques form? I'm trying to remember any situation that I have encountered in which people haven't formed cliques. I can't think of any except in those cases in which the entire crowd is a clique with a common interest or with a shared system of values.
Hierarchies also seem to form naturally. The differences between individuals guarantee it. A collectivist setting seeks to erase the differences so isn't the real issue the futility of trying to impose uniformity?
Am I missing something here?
Yes - intensity. Cliques form in the real world, but clique wars are less common and ostracism tends to be less painful. Even in the workplace, it's easier to separate your life at the office or factory from your life outside the firm. (Or to find a new workplace altogether.)
Obviously there are exceptions, variations, etc., but as a general tendency I think this is true.
Learning to cope is a critical part of adolescence.
I think the schools should be preparing kids for adult social interaction.
That means we should make their social interactions mirror what will exist in the real world as much as possible.
There is no social interaction in the real world [other than that between nation states] where anyone needs to know how to "fight their own battles" or whatever. I have no problem teaching kids to immediately involve authority figures, in cases where an adult interaction of the same type would involve the police or attorneys.
If someone comes up to me on a city bus and demands my lunch money, or smacks me in the head because it will entertain my friend, in the adult world the immediate response should be 1) call the cops 2) guys get tased 3) enjoy failing your CORI check for the rest of your worthless lives. I think the schools should prepare kids for THAT.
Fluffy is a hijacker's dream.
What Fluffy said. On the Intertubes, we can call each other names, etc., yet I suspect that if we interacted personally on a day to day basis, the insults would be minimal, only between trusted friends. And not out of fear of getting into a fight, just the common courtesy that's necessary in the adult world.
Kids should be taught that if they can't treat someone with respect, they should just leave them the hell alone. You don't have to be everyone's friend, but not liking someone doesn't give you the right to punch them.
I agree with this-assault shouldn't be tolerated just because the victim and the perpetrator are both underage. Too often the schools seem to regard this as unserious and the bullies know it. Make real (physical) bullying have consequences and you could curtail a lot of the problems in schools.
That's why my boys take karate lessons.
In my real adult world an attempt to rob me would likely be met with two rounds in the center of mass. Seems a bit harsh for the playground, but I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
high school -- short, yup; fat, yup; smart, yup; trifecta!!!
how did you keep from commiting suicide? I bet their was an assembly to raise awareness that probably saved your life, yeah? did you ever thank them?
band, chess, computers. Even the mathletes picked on me.
I offset band with pot connections, that worked out alright.
Unless the problem is no more complicated than "How many kids can we fit into this gymnasium?"
Hey! I have that problem all the time, doesn't everyone?
My only issue is not being able to fit more kids into my panel van...
If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire... The A-Team's van.
Don't be horning in on my shtick.
[i]girls didn't see fighting over boys or ostracizing one another because of boys as bullying. They didn't even see producing fight videos as bullying.[/i]
Neither do I, unless the fight vids are being made with only one consenting party. Otherwise, it's two chicks enter, hopefully one chick gets beat down. And let her watch the vid to see what she did wrong.
With proper tags even.
"There's no bullying problem at my school," they'd say.
"However, I was eventually able to convince bully and browbeat them into accepting my superior understanding of the infantile misery of their lives. They were grateful; so very, very grateful. Many wept, and surrendered their will to me."
And then Winston gets shot, right?
Here's my solution to bullying:
An announcement from the principle that any student who lays hands on another student, or appropriates or damages the property of another student, will be suspended for a week, first offense, and expelled, second offense.
Period. Students who report to teachers or principals "emotional abuse", "drama", some kid expressing his dislike for another kid, will be ignored. Solve your own social problems, kiddos, we've got an educational institution to run, here.
Students who report to teachers or principals "emotional abuse", "drama", some kid expressing his dislike for another kid, will be ignored.
Ignore this media coverage of my kid's lawsuit, then.
That is such a patriarchal way to handle things. To suggest such a clearly insensitive policy ought to land you in several weeks of sensitivity training. These kids don't off themselves because of physical assault or property damage...
I'm waffling here, my cognitive dissonance can only go so far. Of course your solution is the right one. But the urge to micromanage kids into being something they are not is pretty central to current elementary education.
Kids can be so cruel. Until we got them fixed.
That is no fun. In high school we had a regimen at lunch time we referred to as scuffle matches which were performed in a large restroom near the lunch room. No formal rules except for punching and slapping not being allowed, grappling and noogies were the keys to victory. Also, at the end, whoever was declared the loser was ganged up on by the rest for a swirlie dunk. I'm proud to say my head never came close to the toilet, but they did removed a shoe one time and flush it instead.
BTW, no one singled out. If you lost a match you couldn't fight again that week. However, you were encouraged to exact revenge in the gang up.
I approve!
Yeah, my husband's strategy in high school was go in Monday morning, beat someone up, get a 10 day suspension, and call his job to tell them he was available for double shifts for the next two weeks. Yes, he was an asshole back in the day, but the bigger point is that a lot of students don't see suspension as punishment.
Re: xenia onatopp,
No he was not, if he spent his time doing something a little MORE productive than sitting in a school room listening to some loser that's not intelligent enough to hold a real job, for six hours straight.
Except for the part where he randomly beat someone up so that he could get what he wanted. Pretty sure that qualifies as being an asshole. He probably would've just dropped out of school, but he didn't have the balls to stand up to daddy so he beat up someone weaker than him instead.
Close enough, which is why I said he was an asshole. I wasn't lying. If I'd been in high school with him I doubt we'd be married now, but he's one of those rare people who realized his default behavior pattern wasn't acceptable and changed it.
I think I know the answer but I'll ask anyway:
As principal you'd be totally cool with kids constantly picking on, say, the gay boy or the Muslim girl as long as there were no physical threats?
The anthropologist e e cummings impersonator danah boyd
Dear doctor boyd-
Welcome to the Monkey House.
Nerds! more with the lunch money handing over and less with the blogging!
One of my friends wrote an essay during our senior year for the school newspaper about the various cliques. It was basically a "fuck you" to the popular girls (to any high school kids reading this [ha!] - be nice to yearbook and newspaper geeks - they control the media). Anyways, the administration was shocked - shocked! - that there were cliques. In high school, of all places! They imiediately put together a series of assemblies for the following school year, determined to break up these cliques (thank kee-riste we had already graduated). And this was in the 80's.
You can't fight the cliques.
From a former "victim". - I was a tall, smart kid - aced my classes - and wasn't beloved by my peers. Funny thing - started lifting weights packed on over 100 lbs (started as a sickly 180) in 6yrs -and my bullies left me alone. Real fun time was when I came home from college and bumped into the three guys that made school hell. It was weird though - I thought if I ever saw them... In the end they looked scared and I never said more than get the f out of my way.
I was a nerd who dressed really weird. Thing is, I was never bullied by anyone, male or female, because I absolutely, 100% owned my weirdness. It kind of loses its fun for the bullies when you just smile when they call you a freak.
Oh the other thing - though school sucked - I wouldn't trade it - because it made me tougher - not sure if I would have lifted if I wasn't "bullied".
Naturally, administrators would rather grandstand at feel-good assemblies.
What's the point of being Head Baboon in Charge if you can't tell everybody what to do?
It's the state that's doing the bullying.
I was a victim of the state-sector bullying in school much more than any cliquishness or student bullying. I was in the eighth grade when the Challenger space shuttle exploded. The government sector teachers' union wanted to show how sensitive they were by making all the students sign a condolence poster for the teacher who died. I, being a lazy contrarian bastard, ignored it during my lunch hour, and when one of the teachers overheard that I hadn't signed it, I was cajoled into signing the damn thing.
The teachers didn't give a shit about the six non-teachers who died on that shuttle, and if I knew then what I know now, I would have written on the poster that I was signing under duress and that I thought it was wicked that the non-teachers weren't getting our condolences.
It occurs to me that my morning Iron Maiden link would have fit much better in a thread about high school.
What worked in my high school (1980s) was someone starting a rumor that the biggest bully in school picked fights because he was a super-repressed gay dude. It was maybe the only time an entire community's rampant, pathetic homophobia was put to positive use.
I don't understand why more families don't simply turn away from conventional education.
Like (apparently) everyone else who frequents H & R, I should have been bully-bait in high school - skinny, uncoordinated, etc.
Looking back on it, I hit upon the exact same strategy I would expect to use in a penitentiary - I traded favors (and no, not those favors). I helped the li'l thugs with their academics, and they didn't punch me. Everybody won.
Did the same R.C. Over time, I "collected" my own little group of bullies who kept the other bullies at bay. Pretty neat arrangement. The other problem I had was my parents being so against me defending myself. Once when I did, it ended the bullying from that guy. Today you get suspended for defending yourself and I would have been in major shit with my Dad.
A lot of the parents complaining about their children getting bullied need to take a step back and start looking in the fucking mirror.
Kids who are bullied have confidence and social issues for a number of reasons but upbringing is a big part of that.
It's easy to toss the problem to Washington and make them create an anti-bullying task force. It's a bit harder to question your parenting decisions and teach your children to instead deal with their issues with their peers on their own.
I keep hearing these stories of parents who are blaming everyone else for their child killing themselves. Guess what? If it's not your kids fault then you're person of interest number two in this scenario, not the rest of us.
It's easy to toss the problem to Washington and make them create an anti-bullying task force.
With agenda items like this the demand curve is never first risen by the general public. Bullying has been around since Cain and Able, but it has come to the fore as an issue only recently. Some public advocates figured a way for it to serve as a stepping stone for their more over arching purpose. In the meantime, the public gets played. Weird Soviet like assemblies are orchestrated in high schools through out the land. Reeducation classes for violators. What agenda would that be? Some mention gay tolerance, and that is certainly a big part of it. However, that too is a mere stepping stone towards diminishing the power of informal networks to strengthen the hand of the public sector.
"Anti-bullying task force" is just another name for "faggot gestapo." First thing we need to do when these bastards are overthrown is order every such government "squad" rounded up and sent to the firing squad. Janet Napolitano, "School Safety Czar" Kevin Jennings (The literary kiddie porno peddler), the SEIU, Organizing For America, and every other totalitarian organization this fascist regime has developed must all be publicly executed as a warning to other fascists that we patriots don't tolerate their statist commie traitor shit around here.
I just found something the GLSEN wants all you little brats to read:
I just found something the GLSEN wants all you little brats to read:
I wrote "Because, It's Just Good Manners!, which is available as a free download from my website. A challenge was issued to students and teachers to practice good manners for one week. The theory being you can not bully and use good manners at the same time. There is also a direct correlation between the decrease in good manners and the increase in bullying. Anyway, the feedback I got was that teachers were not qualified to teach good manners. I was also informed that teachers were no longer permitted to correct students for fear of upsetting them or affecting their psyche to the point they may never survive or might commit suicide.
Instead, schools are teaching martial arts to the students and teachers.
With this attitude the problem will only get worse.
From her biography here, http://www.danah.org/aboutme.html
"I was born on Thanksgiving Day (November 24) 1977 in Altoona, Pennsylvania. My birth name was "danah michele mattas" (spelled all funky because my mother loved typographical balance)."
I just wonder why she insists on this non-capitalization of the first letters of her name. Is not that strange? Maybe it has something to do with Altoona?
Bullies are almost always somewhere in the middle of the social hierarchy. As a parent, one of the things I worry about is the safety of my child especially when I'm not physically with her. And as proactive measures against bully, I will always make sure to monitor my child in order to guide her from any possible situations that might occur along in her way. In fact as one way of securing her safety, I provided her a tool for her safety that enables her to ask immediate help, and she has a direct access to emergency services. My family safety protection check this out http://SafeTREC.com/
It takes a brave character to spoof someone. So very proud of you, we are, anonymous coward.
Brilliant strategy, brave spoofer! Demonstrating or, rather, attempting to demonstrate bullying tactics. Bravo again, cowardly liar!
Well, ain't that odd, brave spoofer? Poof, it's gone.