The Ahmed Ghailani Verdict and Gitmo
A jury in Manhattan acquitted Ahmed Ghailani, accused of complicity in the 1998 embassy bombings in Africa, of 284 charges (including all counts of murder), convicting him only on a charge of conspiracy to destroy government buildings and property. The decision to prosecute Gitmo prisoners in American courts, says the AP, "did little to inch President Barack Obama closer to shuttering the island prison, making it increasingly likely his campaign promise will remain unmet when his term expires."
Former Bush administration lawyer and Harvard professor Jack Goldsmith, who famously broke with the administration over its broad interpretation of executive power (and angered his former comrades by writing a book attacking the Bush administration's legal policies, appearing on Bill Moyers, writing in The New Republic that "Barack Obama is waging a more effective war on terror than George W. Bush," "resist[ed] the culture of torture," etc.), thought the verdict "highlight[ed] the attraction of military detention without trial." In a 2008 Slate column, Goldsmith called for closing Gitmo—and presciently argued that the next president, regardless of party affiliation, would retain much of Bush's terrorism policy—and then, also in Slate, offered a "blueprint" for shuttering the facility. With all of this in mind, I was slightly surprised by his post-verdict blog post, highlighted by New York Times national security correspondent Charlie Savage:
I agree with (Benjamin Wittes and Robert Chesney) that the disappointing Ghailani verdict does not imply that the prosecution should have been brought in a military commission. As they argue, most if not all of the challenges of Ghailani's trial would have been replicated in a commission, and a verdict in a commission would have been harder to defend on appeal. I also agree that it is wrong to view commissions as the muscular trial option and civilian trials as the weak trial option. The truth, if anything, is the opposite.
But while the Ghailani verdict does not argue for commissions, it does, I think, highlight the attraction of military detention without trial. Imagine, as now seems quite possible, that Ghailani had been acquitted. The administration would have faced the terrible choice between releasing him or (as both the Attorney General and Judge Kaplan have said is possible) continuing to hold him in military detention indefinitely. The first option is unsafe for the nation and suicidal politically. The second option looks terrible in light of acquittal, and would harm the legitimacy of every subsequent terrorist trial. The reason the first option is unsafe and the second option is available is that Ghailani helped conduct a major terrorist operation on behalf of a group with which we are at war. Military detention was designed precisely to prevent such soldiers from returning to the battlefield. It is a tradition-sanctioned, congressionally authorized, court-blessed, resource-saving, security-preserving, easier-than-trial option for long-term terrorist incapacitation. And this morning it looks more appealing than ever.
Discuss.
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"A jury in Manhattan acquitted Ahmed Ghailani, accused of complicity in the 1998 embassy bombings in Africa, of 284 charges (including all counts of murder), convicting him only on a charge of conspiracy to destroy government buildings and property."
Yeah, that's it! He conspired "to destroy government buildings and property" but had no intention to destroy 284 lives. Makes perfect sense.
You beat me to it. The jury convicted him of destroying government property but not of destroying human life? Manhattan is more left than I ever imagined.
It's too bad that jury had to decide based on evidence and not what they knew in their hearts was right.
...and based on the fear of retribution from other terrorists. Legitimate fear apparently, since they were secreted away by federal marshals immediately afterward and taken to separate locations before going home.
Oh, yes, the evidence clearly showed that he engaged in a conspiracy to blow up a US embassy, but that he did not engage in conspiracy to commit murder of the occupants of the embassy, even though the embassy by its nature is occupied 24/7.
The verdict is absolutely ludicrous. That the judge praised the jury instead of denouncing them for their insane decision is proof that the judge is a pinhead. And anybody who says the system worked is also a pinhead.
Either this guy did plot to blow up the embassy, in which case he was guilty of conspiracy to commit murder, or he did not, and he was wrongly convicted of conspiracy to blow up government buildings and property. Either way the verdict is a miscarriage of justice.
It's a compromise between one juror that didn't want to convict and the rest who did.
Compromises do not always make logical sense.
Sounds like a pretty thin reed for anyone to be hanging their hat on to me.
Nothing is more dangerous to the United States than incarcerating a man that a jury has determined was not guilty of crimes charged. A terrorist can plot and plan against the United States, and s/he can kill thousands of fellow Americans in a single stroke. That's a serious problem.
But when the executive can arrest a suspect, hold him/her incommunicado, refuse to try him/her in court, refuse to submit its terrorist determination for review, shop for the proper judicial forum if it bothers to try someone, and ignore the judiciary if it acquits...then, Mike, you have a government far, far more dangerous than any terrorist group. A terrorist group can kill a few thousand with a bold and clever plan. A government that has fused judge, jury, and executioner in the executive can kill millions, in a steady and workmanlike fashion, and terrorize hundreds of millions more. In an open-ended, ill-defined contest against a group that is as much idea as it is sinister organization, the danger grows ever stronger.
Consider how fast RICO was perverted to throw innocent people in jail. Break out unreviewed detention, and watch how fast folks get rounded up, pour decourager les autres, bien sur.
I agree. There are differing opinions about using tribunals vs. federal court, but one thing is clear - we cannot allow the courts to be subverted simply because the executive disagrees with the verdict. You can't have it both ways. This administrations's idea that terrorists can safely be tried in federal court because they can just ignore any "wrong" verdict is extremely dangerous.
Well said.
In this case, we can all blame George Bush.
Of course, and implied would be the evil Rove plot behind the scenes that got this terrorist out of the military tribunal system and in front of a Manhattan jury long after Maobama took control of the Justice Department.
While there is much gnashing of teeth over how to prosecute terrorists in custody, There is a brutal reality on the ground elsewhere. The Obama administration has doubled down on predator strikes in the middle east. While they worry about justice here in the US, the Predator acts as judge, jury and executioner elsewhere. Hard to square that circle.
I have always thought that we should have the courage of our convictions. If our judicial system isn't robust enough to take care of some two bit criminals, we shouldn't back away from it. And the idea that we should be petrified of these guys is laughable. They may intend to harm us, but you are still more likely to die in a traffic accident than a terrorist attack.
Besides, if they go free, there is a Predator with their name on it.
It is about jurisdiction.
But... but... Timothy McVeigh, and, uh, teabaggers...
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Not all "teabaggers" are alike. If those who keep pushing the feds to forget about trials and keep all terror suspects locked up forever become the next people to go into America's Bastille (and it wouldn't surprise me), that's poetic justice. But I don't want to go there with them just for not supporting Chairman MaO^H^H^HObama and his plan to destroy America's prosperity.
The verdict is weird, not disappointing.
Exclusion of incriminating evidence pretty much never actually helps a defendant with a jury, and this doesn't seem like a "He didn't do anything, so convict him of the least charge" kind of case.
Is there a transcript out? Or even an account? I can't find any, and I don't get what happened.
There was apparently one juror who wasn't convinced, and everyone else who wanted to convict. The one juror complained that the others were not happy with her. This being real life and not "Twelve Angry Men," they eventually "compromised" on convicting on the one charge, as illogical as it might seem.
The juror who didn't want to convict actually asked to be excused because she wasn't going to change her opinion and she felt she was being attacked by the others.
The article you linked to doesn't say which position that the lone juror took, only that it was different than the rest of them. So, how do you know she didn't want to convict?
The note suggested that the jury in Federal District Court in Manhattan was split 11 to 1, although it was unclear whether the dissenting juror was alone in wanting to acquit or to convict Mr. Ghailani.
Please don't muddle our theories with facts.
Please list a comprehensible and rational set of facts under which a jury has eleven members who want to find the defendant innocent, one who wants to find the defendant guilty, and they end up agreement to convict on one charge that carries with it a term of 20 to life. The actual result was still a conviction. Both logic and human psychology argue that it's more likely that the one juror who wanted to vote innocent agreed to the compromise of the lesser charge.
The article in question was published before the decision was announced, and when a mistrial was a distinct possibility.
They found him guilty on 1 charge of over 200.
That seems more in line with 1/12 favoring guilt than 11/12ths. Otherwise they would have compromised on about 180 charges.
After all, despite all the silly gnashing of teeth, he's now going to spend at least 20 years being tortured in a supermax prison.
The article was published before the decision, when I would agree that it was unclear. After the decision was announced, the particulars of the decision make it nearly impossible that the single juror was the only one wanting a guilty verdict. If that were the case, then I would have expected a mistrial-- which was still a possibility when the article was published.
It doesn't seem rational for eleven of the jury members, or anyone really, to believe that he was guilty only of blowing up the building but none of the other charges. Most likely the result was a compromise between jurors who wanted innocent and those who wanted guilty.
I find it difficult to believe that if 11 of the jurors believed that he was innocent that they would agree to a compromise that led to a term of 20 to life. In that situation I would expect a hung jury.
It seems to me much more likely that one juror would flip from innocent to guilty on a lesser charge than eleven flip the other way.
From the article:
The juror who sent the note, which was somewhat ungrammatical, said she felt "secure and I have come to my conclusion but it doesn't agreed with the rest of the juror."
Remind me never to go on trial for my life.
Charlie Savage's article seems to assume that the defendant is absolutely guilty, no question, and so it would be risky to try him and risk that he might go free, or "force" Obama to ignore the verdict and continue to incarcerate him anyway.
Can anyone else spot the flaw in the premise there?
Well we know Ghailani is guilty, so that means he must already have gone through a trial that proved he was guilty, so what exactly is the point of this recent trial? Makes perfect sense to me.
That people confuse being legally guilty with having committed the crime?
Except for what was apparently the major challenge, one recalcitrant juror. I'm not saying that jurors shouldn't have that power, but I do suspect that a military commission wouldn't have had that issue.
This story about the one juror who wanted to be excused because in her words she was "secure and I have come to my conclusion but it doesn't agreed with the rest of the juror. My conclusion, it not going to change," sheds some light on the issue.
I love how we'll single out folks who believe in jury nullification but hold on to total idiots.
I love how people pretend that being tortured for 20 years in a SuperMax prison is somehow less cruel than waterboarding.
I love how some people pretend that being imprisoned for 20 years in a SuperMax prison somehow equates to being tortured for 20 years..
It is. SuperMax prison is torture.
There's no question in my mind that the long term solitary confinement practices used in SuperMax prisons are torture, and suffering it for 20 years is worse than waterboarding. Torture is torture, regardless of exactly how the government chose to approve its use.
If your objection to torture is simply that it's ineffective, of course, feel free not to care.
I love how you assume people here are in favor of the inhumane way people are treated in prison.
People have expressed a clear preference for the prisoners to be taken out of a situation where they are not currently tortured, and certainly not on a day by day basis, and put in a situation where they will undergo long-term torture.
If people are not in favor of that inhumane treatment, why agitate for the Gitmo prisoners to be placed in it?
Don't some people here like to say that foreseeable consequences are not unintended?
The obvious foreseeable consequence of giving these people trials (trials which are obviously foreseen to be guaranteed to reach a guilty verdict) is that they get placed in SuperMax prisons like ADX Florence that are not only much worse treatment that they're getting now, but daily torture.
Therefore, many people here intend for those prisoners to be tortured.
How is SuperMax torture?
""How is SuperMax torture?""
If it was, it would be in violation of federal law. Perhaps it's suppose to be considered torture to make his point.
I love how you assume people here are in favor of the inhumane way people are treated in prison.
When people prefer the obviously foreseeable outcomes of death on the battlefield before capture, death by drone, torture and imprisonment in secret prisons, torture and imprisonment by foreign police, or torture daily in a SuperMax prison to keeping the prisoners in the very visible and open to the press and foreign visitors Gitmo, then I think it's fair to make that assumption.
I don't see how it's acceptable to torture additional people because you're theoretically opposed to the idea of the torture that occurs there in the place where you're sending them. If you actually oppose the inhumane torture that occurs in SuperMax prisons, you should support keeping the prisoners in Gitmo rather than sending them there.
Are you suggesting the conditions at Gitmo are better than at a SuperMax? I doubt they are at all better.
I've always thought Goldsmith was a prick and this only confirms my opinion. He doesn't believe in the rule of law. If we're afraid of someone, all we have to do is claim that he is a soldier on the "battlefield," which is everywhere, and "detain" him until the war is over, which is never. People like Goldsmith almost make Obama look good, if you squint hard enough.
Cheers, in my opinion, for those jurors who were actually willing to function as a jury, rather than a rubberstamp. Maybe if I had been in the jury room I would have a different idea, but it's nice to think that some Americans are still more interested in justice than revenge.
It might not be your exact cup of tea but there is nothing whatsoever wrong with seeking revenge, doing so legally of course being the preferable means. Furthermore, justice and revenge are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, they approach synonymity.
In other words, let's have "trials" where the outcome is a guaranteed guilty verdict. Fuck, drop the pretense. These assholes just want "terrorist suspects" summarily executed without any benefit of due process. They just don't have the stones to say so, the chickenshit cocksuckers.
Terrorists captured outside the U.S. are not entitled to due process at the time of capture.
So are they guilty of being terrorists just because the government says they are?
Foreigners on foreign soil are not entitled to the protections of our Constitution.
How much due process did German soldiers in France get in 1944?
---"How much due process did German soldiers in France get in 1944?"---
When we get a Declaration of War, your point becomes relevant.
---"Foreigners on foreign soil are not entitled to the protections of our Constitution."---
When the U.S. Government siezes people in foreign countries, it is obligated to allow some sort of "due process" so that they can challenge the allegations against them. Geneva Convention and all, you know.
""How much due process did German soldiers in France get in 1944?""
That was in wartime.
""Foreigners on foreign soil are not entitled to the protections of our Constitution.""
Foreigners on foreign soil are not subject to the laws of the US.
I think the verdict is a little absurd, as others have mentioned, considering you can't conspire to blow up an embassy while at the same time not conspire to murder the people in that embassy. Despite this, I hardly think this trial is an argument for military commissions. We have a system in place to determine whether or not a crime was committed, and if the jury comes back with an acquittal, then so be it. Either the evidence was there that he did what he did or it wasn't. How can the people detaining suspects also be the ones who determine their guilt? Such a system would be tyrannical. How exactly does everyone *know* this guy was guilty? Everyone, apparently, except the 12 people who were presented with the evidence to his guilt.
That was what was done in Nuremberg.
And yes, there were acquittals.
Some people claim that trials do not work because sometimes the jury acquits.
Remember that there were acquittals in the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg.
Well, what are we supposed to do? Leaving aside Ghailani specifically, let's assume for the sake of argument that we grab some Al-Qaeda gentleman overseas, in the company of some fellow terrorist bomber types. We're not going to shoot an unarmed or subdued captive. So, what to do? Clearly, this is a Bad Man and he wants to hurt us, but we might not have the means or evidence at hand to send him to a jury trial and get him situated in the bunk above Bernie Madoff.
If a man tries to kill you, I see no compelling moral argument for letting that man go home with a stern lecture and a warning not to try that again.
""Cheers, in my opinion, for those jurors who were actually willing to function as a jury, rather than a rubberstamp""
I agree.
Too many people are up in arms becuse it wasn't the pro-prosecution kangaroo court they thought it would be.
Justice worked as it was suppose to. I can understand it pissing off prosecutors, but libertarians?