Tim Cavanaugh Talks Higher Education Bubble With Cavuto on Fox Biz

Is that diploma you went into debt for worth the sheepskin it's printed on? Reason Senior Editor Tim Cavanaugh will talk about the higher education bubble on Neil Cavuto's Fox Business News show this afternoon.

Time: Approx. 6:30 p.m. Eastern (3:30 Pacific), Friday September 3.

Place: Fox Business Channel.

Comments

[Hockey Guy]

Curly>Shemp>Curly Joe

[ClubMedSux]

I wouldn't say that Curly=Shemp, but I would say funniness(Curly)=funniness(Shemp). They were just two different kinds of funny. Now Curly Joe, on the other hand, even the other Stooges didn't think he was funny.

[Hockey Guy]

I love them both and it was a tight call but Curlys little jig pushed it over the top for me. Let's just hope Hollywood doesn't try a re-make.

[SIV]

Mantan Moreland was briefly considered as a possible addition to the Three Stooges when Shemp Howard died in 1955..

There is an alternate universe out there which is far funnier than this one

[Hockey Guy]

Didn't know that. I do remember a very young Lucille Ball that was in a 1934 episode Three Little Pigskins

http://www.threestooges.net/episode.php?id=4

[Mr. FIFY]

You skipped Joe Besser, who was a horrible Stooge.

Anyone who viewed taking a pie in the face as being beneath their station, should have never been a Stooge in the first place.

[Paul]

OT Economic headline:

Companies add 67K workers, but jobless rate rises.

Man loses 10lb on special diet, weighs in 30lbs higher.

[Some Guy]

They need something like 130k to keep up with population growth. Plus we got rid of another chunk of census workers.

[Pope Jimbo]

I wish the bubble would hurry up and burst. My daughter is a Jr. this year.

Of course, it might be even worse if the bubble attempts to burst, but the feds step in and work their same bailout magic in order to keep tuition high.

[Paul]

If the Feds step in and work their "same bailout" magic they've done on everything else, your daughter can look forward to very reasonable tuition rates.

At this point, you should be hoping and praying that Obama declares the cost of tuition a "market failure".

[Fist of Etiquette]

Geez, Cavanaugh. Why don't you just marry Fox Business Channel already.

[CoyoteBlue]

My European History degree from a state university is worth more sheep!

[Joel Plie]

Did somebody say sheep?

[?]

SHEMP 4 LYFE

Of course, it might be even worse if the bubble attempts to burst, but the feds step in and work their same bailout magic in order to keep tuition high.

Before everyone JournoListically agreed to stop talking about what was in the bill and focus on the Hitlerian evil of Republican obstruction, Obamacare included student loan "reform," which has to be some kind of bailout/nationalization/bubble-sustaining thing, or it wouldn't be called "reform." I never heard of its being taken out. Anyone read that shit yet?

You're probably super-boned.

[P Brooks]

Come on, Cavanaugh, if I have to listen to these jabbering morons much longer I'm going to start shooting the teevee.

Holy fuck! Do they round up their "guests" at the bus station?

[Fist of Etiquette]

Ugh. Estrich.

[Fist of Etiquette]

OMG. Cream jacket over a black shirt.

[Fist of Etiquette]

I was hoping for an answer to that question. What exactly happens when the bottom drops out of a college tuition?

[Fist of Etiquette]

Do you really have that much equity in sheepskin? If the next graduating class pays that much less for their diplomas, does it mean you should default on your underwater student loans?

[Murray]

You appear to be having a conversation with yourself. That's so sad.
So here's a reply. You're welcome.

[Fist of Etiquette]

You try live blogging a 90 second FoxBiz spot.

[lolumad]

shouldn't you use your own blog for that?

[P Brooks]

What exactly happens when the bottom drops out of a college tuition?

The end of civilization as we know it.

Duh.

[Max]

Is the cozy relationship Reason has with Fox based on the similar IQ scores of their respective leading lights?

[hmm]

Maybe Fox invites them more?

[Max]

But Fox is so low-brow--we're talking slopped brow--and these guys have intellectual pretensions.

[Max has made his last post]

Max|6.24.10 @ 3:29PM|#

Go suck ron puals dick, morons. You peeple are fucking retarded. I`m done coming to this wingnut sight. this is my last post.

[Max]

Liberal politicians are the only ones who should be highly-educated. The rest of the world needs to be stupid, like me.

[Some Guy]

Too bad there aren't seconds on the timestamp so we could more accurately gauge that...

[Max has made his last post]

Max|6.24.10 @ 3:29PM|#

Go suck ron puals dick, morons. You peeple are fucking retarded. I`m done coming to this wingnut sight. this is my last post.

[P Brooks]

That was pretty unsatisfying; of course, to have a meaningful discussion, you would need to spend half an hour defining your terms.

An audience likely to invest in currency futures on margin (Call now! Operators are standing by!) obviously cannot sit still that long.

[P Brooks]

Max, my boy, you should be in the currency futures market. Open a margin account today, and watch the moolah roll in.

[Liberal]

Racist.

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[Zee Voo]

LOL, like anyone with a single breain cell would take anything on Faux News seriously.

Lou
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[MNG]

Since those with a college degree make significantly more than those without, I'd say there is quite the value.

And there is also this heresy that some knowledge may be important apart from any money it generates...

Both being true, it's a good thing for more people to have access to this.

[Chad]

Actually, MNG, I have never once seen any data that shows how much more college graduates earn than non-graduates with similar grades, backgrounds, intellgence, etc, who chose not to go to college.

If you know if any such data exists, I'd be much obliged.

[MNG]

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/.....gepays.htm

[Chad]

I am specifically looking for data concerning students with similar grades, test scores, and socio-economic backgrounds.

By and large, most of the best students go to college, and most of the worst don't. So even if college provide no value whatsoever, one should expect college graduates to earn more.

[BakedPenguin]

This is actually something I've thought about. People who go to college are generally more ambitious and intelligent than those who don't. I really wonder if the difference in salary has less to do with "education" and more to do with the inherent qualities that make people seek out an education.

[Amakudari]

I think a lot of that has to do with signaling, and college just becomes a sorting mechanism. I learned more in a few months at work than I ever did in my years in school about the area of my intended professional expertise, and I could have been hired in my teens and been roughly as competent. In terms of catching the eye of a good employer, though, in practical terms I had to go through a well-regarded undergrad business program. I don't mean that as a slight against teachers or as a profession of scholastic laziness (summa cum laude, dood), just that things learned in school do not necessarily prepare you for anything.

But I think we're at equilibrium (okay, so game theory was a good course). That is, we may have an incentive as a society to push even high-achieving late teens into the permanent workforce, but Fortune 500 companies aren't going to start grooming high school grads for management, the Ivies aren't going to close up shop, parents aren't going to tell their straight-A kid to skip college, a state's not going to be the first to stop funding its public colleges, etc.

Bottom line: the kind of people who are graduating college today are the kind of people I'd expect to earn more even if you gave everyone access to college. And you might just wind up with 4 less years of work from everyone rather than a gain to civic and professional life.

[Chad]

I agree, Amakudari, that the college experience has a lot to do with being a sorting mechanism. However, you do seem to be making a great argument as to how you don't need to know diddly when it comes to b-school and management. You can be rest assured that some 18-year-old couldn't learn to do my job (or a doctor's, or a lawyer's) job in a few months, or even a few years. Additionally, it would be almost impossible for them to boot-strap themselves up from very little knowledge to a professional's level just by what they experience on the job. Instead, they will have a burst of learning when they first enter the company, and then get stuck in a whatever low-level assistant role where new challenges and responsibilities would be thin. Unless they were dedicated and studied outside of work, advancement could be difficult.

It kind of reminds me of an experience I had in Japan. I had studied Japanese for five semesters in college, and one of the ex-pats that I hung out with a lot hadn't studied it all before moving there. I had been living there for a year when I met him, and he had been there for around ten years. While his vocubulary exceeded mine, my grammar was far better than his, and overall my Japanese was "better" in most contexts. My intense study in college had given me a foundation from which to build my knowledge from the day I arrived. It took him years to boot-strap enough Japanese to get to the point where things started to click.

[Amakudari]

However, you do seem to be making a great argument as to how you don't need to know diddly when it comes to b-school and management.

Well, my argument is that the skills should be learned on-the-job, at least once you get past the three Rs, some econ courses and maybe high school-level calculus. You need to know a lot to be a good manager, but you won't learn it in school. I've met with executives in my field, and I've always been impressed by the depth of their knowledge (in a way that few professors impressed me, FWIW). I think schooling is most appropriate as a supplement to these jobs, not a prerequisite.

As for law, medicine and science, you're right that OJT's not going to fix everything, but I would just argue that if we actually let kids get on those disciplinary tracks in the first 13 years, we could turn out professionals more quickly than the standard minimum 19-22 years (K-12 + college + 2-5 years grad school). The system we have may be great for some people, but the most capable -- those who wind up as execs, doctors, lawyers, scientists, etc. -- are, I think, ill-served.

I'm sure you did well in school and can remember sitting around bored just waiting for the day to finish. That's what I'm talking about. These days I spend any downtime reading finance-related publications, but in school I was forced to twiddle my thumbs for the better part of my time there (which certainly changed in college).

Your analogy for Japanese is appropriate, as the best non-native speakers I know tend to have studied in school and then lived in the country. (I think you get some biases, though, as smart non-native speakers tend to have studied the language, and those who speak no Japanese draw to English-speaking communities that stunt their development, but the broader point is spot-on.) But the key is that there is also practice, and we don't let people get anywhere close until perhaps a summer internship in college, or more realistically a residency. I didn't have real experience until my first day on the job.

Maybe I'm just way off here and without a minimum 13 years we don't have a population capable of sustaining the rational discussion necessary for effective democracy, or something like that, and at least 6 beyond that for certain occupations. But I do think that we have a one-size-fits-all framework for education, and we use it to draw conclusions about the years of education necessary in a way that we would never apply it in a fully rational world (think annual, one pay grade increases for all but the worst employees who meet very minimum goals).

[Chad]

met with executives in my field, and I've always been impressed by the depth of their knowledge (in a way that few professors impressed me, FWIW)

I've had the exact reverse experience. Without prior knowledge (or noting the $5000 suit), I couldn't have distinguished the execs at my former larger company from the middle management. That's not to say the execs were dumb or anything. The middle management nearly universally consisted of smart,hard-working people, as did the upper and middle parts of the technical tracks. The people who get into the upper management tracks do it more with demeanor and attitude, not brilliance.

By far the most brilliant people I have met have almost all been professors. The others were industrial scientists (not primarily managers). Btw, from what I see I TV, major corporate execs are far from impressive, especially if they dabble in politics. Watching Hayward was especially painful.

There is certainly wasted time in school, especially for the smartest kids. But that's a problem with no simple solution, because for some people, the stuff IS actually hard. The problem get a lot smaller at the college level, as the slowest people are weeded out, and the rest generally tier themselves into schools and classes that match their abilities (or quickly change plans if they get it wrong). K12 is and is intended to be 50% about baby-sitting anyway.

Just as another point: do we really WANT to speed up childhood? Everything up to my college graduation, with the obvious exception of middle school, was a ton of fun. College was certainly the most fun time of my life, by a pretty wide margin. I wouldn't want to have it be shorter, even if it would have cost me a few bucks further down the road.

[The Angry Optimist]

Since those with a college degree make significantly more than those without, I'd say there is quite the value.

And there is also this heresy that some knowledge may be important apart from any money it generates...

Both being true, it's a good thing for more people to have access to this.

You remind me of the Twentieth Century Motor guys. Or maybe a cargo cultist. Same thing, really.

[P Brooks]

Fortune 500 companies aren't going to start grooming high school grads for management

IBM and General Dynamics might not, but places like Walmart and McDonald's certainly do.

[Chad]

I don't think that he meant "assistant night manager" when he said "management".

[han]

Is that diploma you went into debt for worth the sheepskin it's printed on?