Reason Morning Links: Stormy Weather, Wind Farms, and Artificial Life

• Floods and landslides across Asia, smog and wildfires in Russia.
• Manhattan isn't the only place a Muslim center is under fire.
• A Coasean approach to noise pollution.
• The evolution of artificial memory.
• Tony Judt, RIP.

Comments

[Spoonman.]

Good morning, Reason. I have no idea why I'm awake this early. I'm a PhD student on Central time.

in Temecula, Calif., members of a local Tea Party group took dogs and picket signs to Friday prayers at a mosque

...Dogs? Why are the dogs relevant?

[affenkopf]

Most muslims view dogs as unclean akin to pigs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_animals#Dogs

Many Muslims have a more relaxed attitude to dogs. I know some Turkish muslims who own several dogs ('though they probably wouldn't bring them to mosque).

[#]

" I know some Turkish muslims who own several dogs"

Ask an arab about what they think about turks. Turks arent "real" muslime.

[Mo]

Lots of Muslims have dogs as pets. The thing about dogs is that you have to wash thoroughly for prayer after handling dogs. I know tons of Egyptian, Lebanese and Jordanian Muslims who own dogs. affenkopf is right that you probably shouldn't bring one to mosque though.

[Suki]

Weren't dogs first domesticated in what is now Saudi Arabia or is that one of those silly rumors?

[Timon19]

Egypt has one of the oldest breeds (the Saluki).

[Suki]

That's the one I was thinking of. Thank you!

[HarHar]

It was most likely Europe:
http://johnhawks.net/node/1686

[Suki]

Ah, same thing as those "Arabic" numerals. I am free of another islamic legend.

[highnumber]

RTFA:

Ms. Serafin was among an estimated 20 to 30 people who turned out to protest the mosque, including some who intentionally took dogs to offend those Muslims who consider dogs to be ritually unclean.

Whether it really offends does not matter. The protesters brought dogs in an an attempt to offend. And besides, when's the last time you heard of protesters bringing dogs along unless they were protesting for something dog-related? Odd choice.

[Marshall Gill]

Whether it really offends does not matter. The protesters brought dogs in an an attempt to offend.

True. In a free society, you can offend anyone you wish, even members of the Religion of Peace.

[affenkopf]

True. In a free society you can also build a mosque on your property, even if it offends people.

[hmm]

I haven't heard of one mosque being stopped by legal means?

So I guess we're still kinda free with respect to this.

[highnumber]

Sobchak Syndrome: You're not wrong, you're just an...

[Slut Bunwalla]

Did any of the people who brought dogs actually SAY they brought them in order to offend Muslims? Or is this kind of like the "Tea party is racist" meme?

Is it not at all likely that some of the protestors thought "I'm going to be outside anyway, might as well take the dog for a walk"?

Not that I'm defending this protest or anything, it sounds pretty stupid to me. I just find the dog thing questionable.

[Timon19]

Since one of the biggest HAR HAR aspects of the anti-mosque people has been "hey, let's take dogs to the protests to needle them Moooslimz!", I'm gonna go ahead and say it was more than simply "Fido needs some air". Every comment thread outside of reason has some crack about dogs and Muslims.

[Tulpa]

What do dogs and Muslims have in common?

They both get shot by guys who ride in humvees.

[Slut Bunwalla]

Oh. I haven't seen that.

WELP...whatever.

[Ted S.]

Patricia Neal (Dominique Francon in The Fountainhead), RIP.

[Almanian]

For me, "The Homecoming" was the definitive P. Neal...

"Flowers...in the dead of winter..."

RIP PN

[Fist of Etiquette]

Specifically, they are offering $5,000 to landowners who will sign a waiver agreeing they will not complain about wind farm noise.

I hope those homeowners enjoy their 30 pieces because they're going to occupy the same center of hell as those Alaskans who got bought off by Palin for raping Giai for her lifeblood. Or something like that.

[Johnny Longtorso]

Housing Policy's Third Rail
...An internal Fannie document from 2004 obtained by The New York Times sheds light on this question. A "Customer Engagement Plan" for Countrywide, it shows how assiduously Fannie pursued Mr. Mozilo and 14 of his lieutenants to make sure the company continued to shovel loans its way.

Nine bullet points fall under the heading "Fannie Mae's Top Strategic Business Objectives With Lender." The first: "Deepen relationship at all levels throughout CHL and Fannie Mae to foster alignment and collaboration between our companies at every opportunity." (CHL refers to Countrywide Home Loans.) No. 2: "Create barriers to exit partnership." Next: "Disciplined Risk/Servicing Management" and "Achieve Fannie Mae Profitability Goals."

(Later in 2004, by the way, the Securities and Exchange Commission found that Fannie had used improper accounting and ordered it to restate its earnings for the previous four years. Some $6.3 billion in profit was wiped out.)...

[Johnny Longtorso]

Internal memo shows Fannie's intense courting of Countrywide, Angelo Mozilo

[Johnny Longtorso]

Annals of executive overreach
Last week, a draft memo surfaced from the Department of Homeland Security suggesting ways to administratively circumvent existing law to allow several categories of illegal immigrants to avoid deportation and, indeed, for some to be granted permanent residency. Most disturbing was the stated rationale. This was being proposed "in the absence of Comprehensive Immigration Reform." In other words, because Congress refuses to do what these bureaucrats would like to see done, they will legislate it themselves....

[Slap the Enlightened!]

7000 ICE employees speak out against their Leaders

[Bean Counter]

RE: Islam is inherently violent. Have those protesters ever actually READ the Old Testament or the Book of Revelations? How do you sing "Joshua Fit the Battle of Jericho" and then complain about less than 3,000 people killed on 9/11?

[?]

Easy. Christianity is the one true religion. Faith trumps reason.

Next question.

[Suki]

Drink?

[Butts Wagner]

Sacramental Wine?

[Brett L]

So, the Old Testament/New Testament thing confuses you?

[Tulpa]

No, but I think it confuses you.

[Suki]

New Testament supersedes Old Testament.

Move along, nothing to see here.

[Tacos mmm...]

Judaism is an inherently violent religion.

[Suki]

Is that why the IDF kicks such awesome ass?

[Fluffy]

Not in any meaningful sense.

The New Testament contains a new covenant that supercedes the Mosaic law, but it's still the same general cast of characters. If Yahweh was a dick in the Old Testament he's still a dick now.

And the propagandists who wrote the New Testament went to extraordinary lengths to make sure that the NT linked back to the OT in countless ways. Half of the events of Jesus' life as described by the evangelists are contrivances that are only there to show that he fulfilled some OT prophecy or other.

And if you throw out the OT, the death on the cross and the resurrection no longer make any sense [using "sense" in the somewhat elastic religious manner] - both of those signal events in Christianity tie back directly to the Fall and serve no purpose without it. And there's a reason that the Last Supper was a passover seder, and that brings us back to Exodus as well.

You can't start pulling threads out of the OT/NT synthesis without the whole thing falling apart.

If you want to destroy my Bible
Pull out Exodus as I walk away [As I walk away!]...

[waffles]

bullshit. it only falls apart if you have some need to establish the divinity of christ. absent that need NT is just fine all by itself.

[Fluffy]

Well, sure.

But denying the divinity of Christ just destroys it in a different way.

If you're willing to sacrifice that to protect the Bible as literature, hey - more power to ya.

Without the divinity of Christ the Bible is just a nice story about a philosopher who told some pat stories and performed some sleight of hand. And that would be great, but it's not really what the people selling Bibles have in mind.

[Fluffy]

The NT is just a nice story, I should say.

Although one problem is that if you deny the divinity of Christ, the parts put in there to refer back to prophecy are still there, they're just openly deceptions then. So you'd still spoil the cohesion a bit because you'd be admitting that, for example, the Christmas story in Matthew was part of a deliberate con game. And that cheapens it a little, doesn't it?

[Tulpa]

absent that need NT is just fine all by itself.

Without the OT you lose God creating the universe, the sin of Adam, the covenant with Noah, the covenant with Abraham, and the establishment of the House of David, among many, many other things vital to Christianity.

[Suki]

You are not moving along. Now move along before you get into real trouble.

[Mo]

There are many references in the NT that God's word is eternal and unchanging, so separating the NT and OT is bull.

[Suki]

Is not.

[Suki]

And you move along too.

[Mo]

"The written Word of God reveals His will and its eternal truth. Even though written by sin-corrupted man, it was authored by the Holy Spirit." 2 Peter 1:20

STFU.

[Suki]

Just stop before you get into real trouble.

[Mo]

Oh no, internet tuff guy threats. I'm scared.

[Suki]

Let the stoning begin.

[robc]

Thats not even close to 2 Peter 1:20.

NIV translation:
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.

King James, for comparison:
knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation

WTF translation did you pull that from?

[Take Care of THIS!]

So you're still down with Revelations?

[The Ghost of John]

Sure. A beast with seven heads and ten horns is associated with the number 666. Another beast, looking like a lamb but speaking like a dragon, is identified as the False Prophet. He leads people to worship the first beast. The Whore of Babylon is associated with the Beast and refers to a counterfeit "bride" to the church.

[Suki]

If that is what Dr. Raymond Stantz was quoting, then yes.

[Slut Bunwalla]

Mm, except the Bible contains violent instructions for very specific and limited situations. Things like destroy the nonbelievers in Jericho and take over their city. As opposed to open-ended commands to kill nonbelievers for the rest of time.

But yeah, you're right, TOTALLY the exact same thing.

[Tulpa]

Someone hasn't read Leviticus. Not that I blame you.

Remember how God punished David for not killing every last one -- man, woman, and child -- of the natives of Canaan? Didn't think so.

[Slut Bunwalla]

Did it say to keep killin' 'em even thousands of years later?

[Warty]

Rats know a sinking ship when they see one

Ryan's radicalism will be abetted by the new House speaker, John Boehner, who didn't even wait for the BP well to be plugged to announce that "a moratorium on new federal regulations" would be "a great idea."

*barf*

Japan overdoes it again

[Atanarjuat]

At first I read that as "Hangman's Hymen".

[Warty]

How A $500 Craigslist Car Beat $400K Rally Racers

[Nipplemancer]

that guy is my new hero

[hmm]

Jalpnik has some crappy reporing, but god I love that site.

Plus who doesn't like people with no fear or sense of common sense. Some of my best friends aren't right in the head.

[T]

That's what privateer racing is about, right there. Fucking amazing.

[hmm]

They have amateur rally and racing in Europe. One circuit requires the winner to sell his car to anyone who offers the limited amount you can spend on the car.

Hell the Finnish flick, or Scandinavian flick is taught in Finland's driving school for a regular license.

[robc]

Didnt he put about $20k into the car though?

[Take Care of THIS!]

File under instant karma:

Former Texas Longhorns linebacker sucker punches woman outside a nightclub, then gets KTFO by professional MMA fighter.

[Warty]

The video is spectacular, but it's unfortunate that we don't see the fight itself. We do get to see Huerta curb-stomping the dude afterward, though, which is amusing.

[P B]

Lesson---don't punch girls!

[She said; she said]

"I do believe everybody has a right to freedom of religion," she said. "But Islam is not about a religion. It's a political government, and it's 100 percent against our Constitution."

"A lot of Muslims came to the U.S. because they respect the Constitution," she said. "There's no conflict with the U.S. Constitution in Shariah law. If there were, Muslims wouldn't be living here."

[Suki]

That Falls Church, VA imam disagrees. Good recent National Review article on that.

[Barack Obama]

Mr. Holder, as you know, we have a fair amount of "stimulus" money still available. Please see if this Noise Easement Agreement can be modified into something beneficial for the mid-term elections.

[Law Student]

So will all you people who say that you only oppose the ground zero mosque because it is too close to ground zero come out and condemn these protests?

[Take Care of THIS!]

Yes, I would, but I don't have the time to drive to California.

[Suki]

I will go on the record to condemn their use of dogs as props.

[hmm]

Why would I condemn free speech and assembly? As long as all they are doing is protesting more power to them.

Your moniker and this question are slightly troublesome.

[Law Student]

Did I say that it should be illegal for them to protest it? I think those "God Hates Fags" should be allowed to protest but we should all still condemn them.

[hmm]

Just seemed a little strong. I don't condemn people for voicing an opinion I don't agree with.

[Tulpa]

You don't condemn the Phelps protesters? Really?

[J sub D]

Manhattan isn't the only place a Muslim center is under fire.

Have these people decrying the violence in the Koran even read the Old Testament? Since my beliefs are evn more hated than those of Muslims, I often thank the founding fathers for the First Amendment protecting everybody from intolerant douchbeags like this.

[prolefeed]

The Qur'an is arguably more violent than the Old Testament (I read about half before I couldn't stomach any more), but I've read the Bible cover-to-cover and it's a violent document full of contradictory passages.

Throw in the Mormon scriptures (which I've also read), and it's a recipe for massive cognitive dissonance if you are incapable of Orwellian doublethink.

Actually reading the stuff led me to believe religion was a pack of lies.

[Zeb]

It is amazing that there are people who have actually read the stuff and still think it is the literal word of God.

[Fluffy]

The Mormon Bible is a real source of wonder for me.

I wonder how anyone can read it and not see it as something a 19th century con man would write to try to sound "Bible-y".

Forget the whole "I'm using a magic stone to read gold plates in this hat" part of the story that people always make fun of. The content of the Book of Mormon sounds like something out of Monty Python.

[Suki]

The content of the Book of Mormon sounds like something out of Monty Python.

If the salamander doesn't reel them in, this will. I always had the same wonder as you about that too.

[Take Care of THIS!]

Oh god, it's an unholy alliance of xenophobia and "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!"

"As a mother and a grandmother, I worry," Ms. Serafin said. "I learned that in 20 years with the rate of the birth population, we will be overtaken by Islam, and their goal is to get people in Congress and the Supreme Court to see that Shariah is implemented. My children and grandchildren will have to live under that."

[Fluffy]

I don't think the word "learned" means what Ms. Serafin thinks it does.

[Spoonman.]

Wow. Will the Mexicans or the Muslims take over by birthrate first? Who will win?

[Koba Too]

They will join forces, and then the Muslicans will rule.

Or maybe it will be the Mexislims.

[Mo]

Muslims are ~1% of the population, unless Muslims reproduce at rates that would amaze a rabbit, there is no chance they'll overtake the population.

[Tulpa]

UNLESS THEY KILL US ALL WITH THEIR MUSLIM DEATH RAY FIRST!!!!!!!!!!

[Fluffy]

"It's one thing to oppose a mosque because traffic might increase, but it's different when you say these mosques are going to be nurturing terrorist bombers..."

See, the problem here is that this is not true.

It's really not different. It's never been different.

A local government with the power to stop people from using their property because of "parking" will always - in every last single solitary circumstance - actually employ that power in the service of prejudice or avarice.

In the past, the people who said they opposed things because of "parking" were lying, and their real motivations were stopping a competitor from opening a business, or keeping their town unchanged because they just liked it better the way it was as they grew up. Maybe some hippies hated business and capitalism. Whatever. The point is that "parking" was always just a disingenuous way for people to act on other motives.

So this time the motive is religious hatred. And the lie is in service of that, instead. But it's really nothing new - it's just the same old disingenuousness in the service of a new cause.

[Suki]

See, the problem here is that this is not true.

See Falls Church and Great Falls, Virginia mosques.

[Fluffy]

I'm saying that the "It's one thing..." part is not true. I don't really care about the other part.

[Warty]

Towards the government I feel no scruples and would dodge paying the tax if I could. Yet I would give my life for England readily enough, if I thought it necessary. No one is patriotic about taxes.

[Warty]

Pussy v. Asshole

[SugarFree]

Note to self: Avoid strip-clubs in Ohio.

[Warty]

That is really the best policy. I know a girl who strips at Christie's, which is supposedly the high-class joint here in Cleveland, and I wouldn't pay a dime to see her scoliosis-riddled flabby ass dance.

[Warty]

That is really the best policy. I know a girl who strips at Christie's, which is supposedly the high-class joint here in Cleveland, and I wouldn't pay a dime to see her scoliosis-riddled flabby ass dance.

[Warty]

What the fuck, server? Fuck you and your double posts.

[SugarFree]

The server know that nobody would pay to see it dance.

[R C Dean]

That sticky mouse will get you every time, Warty.

[hmm]

high-class joint here in Cleveland

I call bullshit. Doesn't exist.

[The Gobbler]

Note Warty's use of the word "supposedly".

[hmm]

Note that bashing Cleveland is probably just sarcasm and based in nothing by hyperbole.

[hmm]

by=but

[Suki]

Floods and landslides across Asia, smog and wildfires in Russia.

More fallout from Obama signing that healthcare bill.

[Almanian]

I blame Bush

[Suki]

+1

[JW]

A Coasean approach to noise pollution.

I encountered a Coasian solution in the flesh on Saturday.

An old friend of mine has a farm on Maryland's eastern shore on Kent Island. It's prime real estate now, but his family has been there for a couple of decades.

Long story, short, former CEO of local power company didn't like the barn on my friend's property, next to the road leading to his own property. The barn was off the right of way and the ex-CEO didn't have a legal leg to stand on. (Remembering my Coase, I kept saying "then he should pay you" and my friend kept telling me to STFU and let him tell the story.)

The CEO wanted to pave the gravel road, which would benefit my friend, but he didn't want the old wooden barn there. So, he paid to have the old barn torn down and for a new, steel barn to be erected a bit back and to the right, and paved the road as planned. Everyone was happy and it's nice, as barns go.

[Isaac Bartram]

What, the local Historical Preservation busybodies didn't sue to stop the destruction of a part of the region's heritage?

What kind of philistine backwater does your friend live in? 😉

[JW]

What kind of philistine backwater does your friend live in? 😉

Maryland. Didn't I say that? [rimshot]

[Isaac Bartram]

I drove to the ancestral home in New Jersey in 1993 via the scenic route (I had always wanted to see the Chesepeake Bridge Tunnel since reading the writeup on it in a 1964 National Geographic as a wannabe engineer).

That took me through both Virginia's and Maryland's eastern shore. It had something of going back in time feel to it.

It was dark by the time I got to Delaware so I didn't see much of anything. I have since been told I didn't miss anything.

[Ted S.]

So you didn't drive through Ocean City, MD, I take it. What a shithole tourist trap.

[JW]

I believe that Wildwood, NJ has its hands on that title.

Think Ocean City, MD, only trashier.

[EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy]

(I had always wanted to see the Chesepeake Bridge Tunnel since reading the writeup on it in a 1964 National Geographic as a wannabe engineer).

Eh?

Sane people avoid it, or if that is impossible try to cross in the wee hours of the night.

A cool piece of engineering, to be sure, but a traffic nightmare.

/still emotionally traumatized by living in Hampton Roads...

[Isaac Bartram]

I crossed at about eleven in the morning. Not bad at all.

I stayed on US 13 pretty much the whole way so I didn't see any of the shore towns.

My only experience with beaches in that general area is Ship Bottom. NJ. My cousin has a place there.

As for top shithole tourist trap, my entry is Daytona Beach.

[Zeb]

Who the fuck doesn't like old barns? Don't people pay extra to have old barns in their view?

[Almanian]

Evul Corporashuns don't like old barns, Zeb - teh Evul Corporashuns.

They also hate children, dogs, kittehs and unicorns.

[Gome Pyle]

Well surprise, surprise, surprise!

Half-baked mosque
By ISABEL VINCENT and MELLISA KLEIN

Not so fast.

The developers of the controversial mosque proposed near Ground Zero own only half the site where they want to construct the $100 million building, The Post has learned.

One of the two buildings on Park Place is owned by Con Edison, even though Soho Properties told officials and the public that it owns the entire parcel. And any potential sale by Con Ed faces a review by the state Public Service Commission.

"We never heard anything about Con Ed whatsoever," said a stunned Julie Menin, the chairwoman of Community Board 1, which passed a May resolution supporting the mosque.

Daisy Khan, one of the mosque's organizers, told The Post last week that both buildings on Park Place are needed to house the worship and cultural center. But she claimed ignorance about the Con Ed ownership of 49-51 Park Place and referred questions to Soho Properties, which bought the building at 45-47 Park Place in 2009.

Rep. Peter King, who opposes the mosque, said the developers seemed to be "operating under false pretenses."

"I wonder what else they are hiding," said King (R-LI). "If we can't have the full truth on this, what can we believe?"

http://www.nypost.com/f/print/.....a5xZ0rCmpJ

[Suki]

+1000

[Fluffy]

Yet one more example of why the state must be smashed.

Because there's always just one more piece of shit commission or board to satisfy before any project can move forward.

If enough people are motivated to oppose you, you have no right to do anything with any property anywhere in the United States.

The only reason anyone in the United States experiences even a moment of freedom ever is because their activities fail to be noticed. Liberty by obscurity is no way to run a political system.

[JW]

Can we call that 'liberty theater?' [props to Schiener]

[The Gobbler]

"Yet one more example of why the state must be smashed."

Because there's always just one more piece of shit commission or board to satisfy before any project can move forward."

No, the point is that they lied. They do not own the entire parcel. I couldn't give two fucks from Thursday whether the build a Mosque there, but these fuckers sound as shady as that Tony Rezko guy in Chicago. It's pretty clear they just want to create controversy.

[Mo]

They own a long term lease with a option to buy that they started the process on in February. How is that shady at all?

http://blogs.wsj.com/metropoli.....ound-zero/

[Timon19]

Mo, don't you realize? The anti- folks have straws to grasp at.

[The Gobbler]

Judy Menin would beg to differ.

""We never heard anything about Con Ed whatsoever," said a stunned Julie Menin, the chairwoman of Community Board 1, which passed a May resolution supporting the mosque."

[Timon19]

For the lazy:

The building at 45-47 Park Place was owned by the Pomerantz family until 2009, when they sold the structure to Soho Properties for $4.8 million. (The Post doesn't spell it out, but it appears Soho Properties is affiliated with Park51's organizers.) For an extra $700,000, Soho Properties also purchased from the family a long-term lease on the adjoining space owned by Con Edison.

But to rebuild as an Islamic center, Soho Properties would need to exercise a purchase option in the lease. According to the Post, that process was put in motion with Con Edison back in February. So what comes next?

[Isaac Bartram]

Julie Menin appears to be the chairwoman of "Community Board 1, which passed a May resolution supporting the mosque."

That mens that she is not part of the actual group building the center, but a local quasi-governmental authority whose support is need to go foreward.

Property aquisition in major urban developments often consist of a jumble of overlapping leaseholds and fee simple ownerships, some of which are serious impediments and some which are simple formalities. Often, only the developers' lawyers know which is which.

[Isaac Bartram]

Also, while it is legally neater to build on property you own and especially not on a parcel that is half-owned and half-leased it is not impossible.

There are countless buildings everywhere in the world built on leased land.

[Fluffy]

I don't care if someone lies in a proceeding that I don't think should exist.

I don't think you should have to justify yourself before a community board [or an infinite procession of interlocking boards, as in our current legal climate] before you can buy or sell property or build or renovate property.

Therefore, I don't care if you tell your zoning commissioner the truth or not. Fuck him. Fuck him right in the ear.

[hmm]

Talkin' about mosque. Germany shuts down the mosque that some 9/11 contributors supposedly came out from. They say they have proof recruiting for terrorist acts was happening again.

http://www.google.com/hostedne.....AD9HFQ9DG0

[Charles Lindbergh]

Yessiree. I always thought that what this country needed was to become more like Germany.

That will fix everthing.

[The Gobbler]

And fuck you too. I haven't read the Google piece, but not every thing Germany does is evil by default. Groe the fuck up.

[The Gobbler]

I forget which language spells 'grow" groe, but I think it's in Europe somewhere.

[Suki]

It isn't in Asia, that's for sure.

[Charles Lindbergh]

Someone need to groe a sense of humor.

[Suki]

Hey Chuck, old man Kennedy sends his regards.

[Timon19]

Wow. So A mosque that has been associated with actual badness in the past has badness happening in it again. How does that relate to the hundreds of mosques in the US?

[The Gobbler]

Agreed. No relation whatsoever.

[Suki]

See Falls Church, VA and Great Falls, VA mosques.

[hmm]

How does that relate to the hundreds of mosques in the US?
reply to this

It's a mosque? Kind of like the first grammatically butchered line in the statement says. Did I imply anything else or even draw a parallel to the US?

[Timon19]

Then why bother?

[hmm]

Because there is a discussion of mosques here. Read what you want into it. But you're jumping to the conclusion that I was trying to draw the parallel between the mosque that was shut down and US mosques as an argument to not allow US mosques is a far fetch and at best silly.

[hmm]

You also seem to assume, as noted in your contempt for a post about a German mosque being shut down, that I'm in favor or defending people attempting to legally stop the building of mosques in the US. Which would also be silly.

[Timon19]

I contend that the discussion here is much narrower and that you know that.

[hmm]

Whatever scope you want to use to make your argument... I'm not the one making assumptions or drawing conclusions.

[Walter Cronkite]

This thread is a clusterfuck.

[The Gobbler]

And that's the way it was...

[Nike Dunk High]

thanks

[????? ??????]

Thanks