Obamacare

Ben Nelson Gets a Basket of Goodies, Senate Democrats Get 60 Votes For Health Care Reform

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"A goodie bag? For *me*? How kind of you!"

After a week of legislative high drama, it turns out what Sen. Ben Nelson really wanted was… a basket of goodies for his home state of Nebraska. Nelson, the most determined of the Democratic holdouts on health care reform, announced this morning that he will vote for cloture on the bill, shutting down debate so that the Senate can hold an up or down vote on passage. But he only did so after securing handouts for his home state of Nebraska.

According the Washington Post:

Nelson secured full federal funding for his state to expand Medicaid coverage to all individuals below 133 percent of the federal poverty level. Other states must pay a small portion of the additional cost. He won concessions for qualifying nonprofit insurers and for Medigap providers from a new insurance tax. He also was able to roll back cuts to health savings accounts.

Vermont, which is represented by potential liberal holdout Sen. Bernie Sanders, got a similar deal.

This doesn't mean that there are no potential hurdles left: Democrats still have to reconcile the House and Senate versions, which may prove complicated. The House bill is financed in large part by a millionaire's tax on high earners, and the Senate bill is financed by an excise tax on gold-plated health care plans — a tax that's opposed by unions, which have far more influence in the House. And Nelson has explicitly reserved the right to vote against final passage of the reconciled bill should any significant changes occur. In other words, it ain't over 'till it's over.

That said, Democrats are now substantially closer to wrapping up this process than they were even a day ago. If I had to guess, I'd say that, with Nelson on board, it's all but a done deal.

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  1. If I had to guess, I’d say that, with Nelson on board, it’s all but a done deal.

    So, you’re saying the politics is settled?

    1. Politics denier!

  2. I guess Obama’s threat to shut down the Air Force base was just a bluff, and not a very good one.

    1. Oh, I think Obama would love to shut down military bases… well, Air Force bases, anyway. He’ll still need the Army and Marine bases in case he wants to invade the U.S., and the Navy if he wants to keep us from boating our way to freedom.

      1. The next BRAC is in 2013. Even if the threat story was true, Obama would have to get re-elected and the BRAC commission would have to put the base on the final suggestion list for Obama to sign. He has to accept the list as a whole. He can’t pull a Clinton and cherry pick the reccomendations for political purposes. That type of power still resides in the Congress.

        1. This is Obama we’re talking about… do you think he wouldn’t try anyway?

          1. Oh, please, Libertarian Guy. The article was about health care and Nebraska, not your own delusions. Get with it.

  3. If he’s that concerned about the poor he should donate one of his chins for heating oil.

  4. damn…i wanted to see angry townhall people: the winter 2010 collection

    should we have a drinking game for every senator who votes yes to cloture and no to final passage?

  5. I am withholding a final judgment until we actually see the entire Senate version (Hopefully, before it is voted upon). I know this monstrosity is going to be reek; the question is just how badly it reeks?

    1. I mean, actually, some of the stuff I’ve heard about it doesn’t sound TOO bad, even if the whole thing misses the point (that insurance should be purchased individually and allowed to be purchased across state lines.) To some degree, libertarians should rejoice at the reforms/cuts on Medicare. I don’t think this half of the reform has gotten the praise it deserves from our sector.

      The big killer for me, like most of us, is the mandate and the increase in costs for the non-subsidized. Also the moral hazard where the non-insured will only purchase insurance when they get sick and pay the penalty otherwise.

      One more point – I argue the “fines” are regressive if based upon percentage of discretionary income. 7% of income is more important for the purchase of day-to-day needs for the lower class than it is for the upper class, so the reality is that these people will need to purchase insurance that they don’t have to purchase now or cut deep into their daily spending to pay the fine and still be uninsured.

      1. Medicare cuts? Are you kidding me? Anyone who bothers to read a newspaper now and then should realize that there will be no cuts to medicare until they actually make good on their promise. THEY WON’T. The deregulation provisions will be stripped out in conference. There is nothing in this bill that anyone besides a yellow dog Democrat idiot would support. It’s an insult to my intelligence to suggest otherwise.

        1. The fact that they could even pass Medicare cuts is better than nothing. If they don’t implement the cuts fully that would suck unquestionably – and the chances are you are right. But still, approving massive cuts to one of the biggest entitlement cuts is better than not approving massive cuts, and it’s a bit shocking to me that Democrats were the ones who implemented this. Moreover, even though it’s probably politically impossible to end Medicare, many of the efficiency measures that have been taken to reduce Medicare costs are very good from a libertarian perspective.

          Also two other points: 1.) there is no public option, and so the exchange works more or less as a voucher program where lower people purchase private insurance with government subsidies. Not that this is great, but it’s better than the health care plan Democrats REALLY want. There is still no easy conversion from this to nationalized single payer healthcare, thanks to Lieberman and Nelson. That’s why the far Left is wretching over this. 2.) Another big improvement is the relegalization of importing drugs from Canada. We’ll see if this makes it through the conference committee.

          Don’t get me wrong – this bill is still atrocious and I would still unquestionably vote against it. But it’s not the epitome of evil people make it out to be either.

      2. so all fines should be based on a persons income?

        Moron.

        1. No, I oppose the fines and mandates altogether, but my point is flat taxes still pinch poorer people harder than richer people when you factor in that the poor have less discretionary income to spend. My whole political thesis is based around the fact that government is disproportionately burdensome to the poor even under a guise of progressivism, and the best thing for the poor would be to stop inflation, end flat or regressive taxation (I’d prefer land value and corporate value taxes as the basis for taxation) and lower costly labor and environmental regulations. Most government actions intended to help the poor backfire and hurt the poor, and more than likely government actions help the powerful and politically connected, not the voiceless. See also: eminent domain abuse.

  6. Nelson secured full federal funding for his state to expand Medicaid coverage to all individuals below 133 percent of the federal poverty level.

    How does the CBO score this?

    1. Whatever way that Obama and the Dem leadership wants them to score it. Don’t fall for the CBO numbers. If Democrats can’t game the system, they will usurp it entirely. Socialized medicine, here we come regardless of whether voters want it or not. It’s just a matter of time.

  7. Goddammit.

    This had been a really nice 48 hours… health care bill falling apart, Copenhagen ending in chaos… But then this.

    At least Fulham crushed Manchester United today.

    1. At least Fulham crushed Manchester United today.

      Huzzah to that.

  8. Here’s hoping that the bills keep getting trashed in the polls and constituents keep the heat on the Dems as the process plays out after Senate approval.

    1. I think if Reid can get cloture before the end of the month, it’s a done deal. He’s taking advantage of the holidays. I think if people are sober enough between Dec 26th and January 2nd, Dirty Harry risks a backlash that could bring about more reversals. But after the cloture vote, its all downhill.

  9. Now every other Democrat senator looks like a chump. They each gave away their vote (and some, eventually, their seat) for almost nothing.

    And yeah, I guess we’re way past CBO scoring at this point.

  10. There are those who will say that Senator Nelson sold out, that he sacrificed The American People? for tasty Nebraskan pork. But at the end of the day, my daughters Tamika and Moesha won’t have to worry about back-alley pap smears and third-world breast augmentations. This bill is a job creator, carbon reducer and the Feel-Good Movie of 2009. Word!

  11. C ouldn’t the requirement that consumers are forced to buy a product from a corporation be considered a reverse bill of attainder?

    1. Or perhaps a violation of the Third Amendment – mandatory purchasing of products being perhaps the functional equivalent of the mandatory quartering of troops in one’s home? In each case, one is required to donate one’s private property against one’s will at the behest of government.

      1. Doesn’t matter… it’s For Our Own Good.

      2. The 3rd Amendment only proscribes quartering soldiers in homes during time of peace. During wars Congress can pass laws allowing this.

        And we’re supposedly at war now, and probably will be forever, at least until Terror signs a peace treaty.

        1. Or Allah promises 72 whores for giving up jihad.

        2. And don’t think I’m not considering that loophole.

          I’ll start by quartering troops in the homes of AGW deniers and Tea Party demonstrators…

          1. You crazy, Barry. Like you have kept your word on any fucking thing. But, if you give a speech on the matter, I’ll believe you.

            1. GODDAMN THE UNITED STATES!!! hee hee hee, ha ha, ho ho, hee hee hee hee hee hee heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

    2. Insurance premiums are the price we pay for civilization.

      1. No. If the insurance mandate of the health care bill becomes law, insurance premiums will be the price we pay for simply being alive.

      2. huh? So that means we can all stop paying taxes! Yippee!!!

  12. I am curious. Will this be a plus or minus in upcoming elections? Will republicans get onboard now if they think it will help re-election bids? Will Obama keep his word and have the final bill on the net for 5 days for everyone to read? Which party will suffer the most damage in 2010 and 2012 from this bill’s passage? Does Ben Nelson have the finest hair that money can buy?

    1. Every single poll has shown this as a negative. Republicans will not get on board now, because this is an incredibly unpopular bill.

      Evidence strongly suggests that it was attempting to pass Hillarycare, not failing to pass it, that hurt Democrats in 1994. In swing districts, Democrats that voted against it and helped kill it survived. Democrats that were good soldiers lost. Democrats in relatively solid districts (the middle third, not the safest third or the swing third) actually lost more often than conservative Democrats in swing districts in 1994.

      1. That may be. Bill Clinton actually blamed the ’94 defeat on the assault weapons ban, though.

        1. Bill Clinton has blamed ’94 on just about anything and everything depending on his audience and whatever point he was trying to make at the time (“I raised your taxes too high, didn’t I?” he said to the folks in Texas). And he’s both right and wrong. Truth was that voters got a good look at the Bill and Hillary Show (you know, that historic co-presidency) and said, nope, got to put the brakes on that. Just like today when we’ve got to put the brakes on this madness.

        2. From what I’ve read (I think it was an analysis on realclearpolitics.com), it was a combination of the “assault weapons” ban and the budget/tax hike in the summer of ’93 that did them in. Those in swing districts who voted for both were defeated much more than those who voted for one or neither of them.

          If memory serves, they never really got to a vote on Hillarycare.

  13. This nigga is even more corrupt than me!
    sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeit

    1. Nelson is colored?

    2. Money Launderin’ they gonna come talk to me about Money Launderin’ in West Baltimore, SHIIIIT, Where do you think I’m gonna raise cash for the whole damn ticket! From Laundromats and shit, from some tiny ass Korean groceries, you think I got time to ask a man why he given me money or where he gets his money from, I’ll take any mothafucker’s money if he givin’ it away!

      1. Lemme tell ya somethin’ about Koreans…

      2. Yo Epi, we got your back just a little more west of ya here in little Korea, just head on out da 40 ya know. We’s gots some bigger dem Asian markets to set up some dat laundarin here. You wit dat Acorn bro? What it is with all dis fuckin snow though? My ass is buried out here.

  14. what are the precedents where every consumer has been required by federal law to purchase a product from a corporation? what have been some of the results of legal challenges to those laws?

    1. Are there any precedents for that at a federal level? I’ve never heard of any.

    2. There are none. That’s why every constitutional scholar who isn’t in the tank for Obamacare has said that the mandate is unconstitutional.

      1. Any one here but me going to boycott buying mandated insurance, or do I need to go to prison by myself? There is really only so far that we can let them push us or freedom will be completely lost.

        1. Don’t worry, you won’t be alone in prison. I’m sure there will be a giant muscular leprous guy who wants to be your friend (and more).

          1. Nice Tulpa, thanks for your support, lol. What I actually was will any other so called Libertarian make a stand with me.

            1. I wouldn’t count on any Lib standing up for you or with you. It seems to me that they are mostly a bunch of whiny yellow bastards that are too stoned to do anything of consequence.

        2. I actually don’t make enough money to buy their damned insurance. I can’t pay a thousand dollar fine either. And I’m damned if I’m gonna bust my ass harder or do without other things in order to do so either. Guess they’ll have to put me in jail.

          1. That’s where the subsidies come in. They will require you to use other peoples money to buy that insurance.

            1. Not exactly. As I understand it you have to buy it first with your own money. Then at the end of the year you’ll get a tax credit to help re-imburse what you paid.

          2. not to worry,we are all moving to nebraska because nelson sold out so long as nebraska is not involved in the health bill

      2. Attorney, What about the fact you are required to purchase your stamps from the USPS. Mail must be sent and received through that service and another private enterprise may not use mailboxes etc.

        1. loophole, when was the last time you paid a $1000 fine because you refused to buy stamps?

          1. The last time I loked at the wording (3 weeks ago?) it wasn’t a fine. It was a tax. 2.5% on you taxable income over a certain income level. (can’t remember what the income trigger was)

            This makes it much more serious than a fine as it puts enforcement in the hands of the IRS.

          2. Hyperion,”Under federal law, only the Postal Service can handle or charge postage for handling letters. The USPO has the right of a private business and I was thinking about the legal challenge that will be made on the basis of “precedents where every consumer has been required by federal law to purchase a product from a corporation”.

        2. Did you forget that, unloike health insurance, the USPS is an enumerated power in the Constitution?

          1. The constitution, how do you think they will defend any legal challenges?

        3. I buy my stamps at Publix supermarket. Really.

        4. You don’t HAVE to buy stamps if you decide not to mail a letter. If you breath, and are a resident of the US, you MUST buy (or otherwise already have) a qualified insurance plan under the proposed legislation in the senate. Bottom line is, every other previous government mandate (where a helmet IF you drive a motorcycle, buy insurance IF you own a car, get a license IF you choose to practice a profession) required you to take an action before the mandate was triggered.

          The only other similar mandates I can think of (which have been proved constitutional) is the draft during wartime, and the requirement that children go to school.

          1. So the obvious option is home-medicatin’ option. How do we get this started.

  15. Oh my goodness, thank you (former) Senator Nelson. We were facing bankruptcy before. Now, we can get on with rebuilding a green economy.

    I have delayed the gratification (otherwise known as financial responsibility) of having children (little carbon emitters), but what a wonderful time to teach your kids how a bill becomes law. Perhaps Chapelle will make a comeback and do remake of the old cartoon starring Tyrone Biggums.

    1. Children (little carbon emitters)

      Laugh (out loud).

  16. Nelson is certainly a whore. What a piece of shit. The abortion language he got was meaningless. This was all about holding out for pork.

    One thing that has come from this is that the idea that there is such a thing as a moderate or blue dog Democrat has been ended. It doesn’t matter the name or the place that the Dem comes from, they are all the same; Warner, Bachus, Nelson, Shuler, Pelosi, Reid. They are all equally left. Some just lie about it better.

    1. Actually, one thing would save that– Rep. Stupak is saying that the Senate’s abortion language is unacceptable. If the conference report doesn’t produce his amendment, then it wouldn’t take much more than him (and Joseph Cao) voting against the conference report to sink it by simple majority in the House. That would provide some evidence of a moderate bloc.

      1. Stupak just wants to get his fair share of pork, too.

        The bill’s passing, even if they have to bribe every Democrat in Congress.

        1. For celebrating the passage of the bill, they should bring out a woman to have an abortion on the footsteps of the capitol building. Then they should find a 20 year old in the crowd who doesn’t have insurance, lock him in a cage with a convicted rapist, and then shock him with a cattle prod.
          God Bless America, Harry Reid will say.

  17. Good ol’ Democrats – party of liars, beggars and thieves. Oh – and slave masters

    1. They just don’t care anymore. I think they know that they are done in 2010 and may never see power again. So they figure they will steal as much as possible and then filabuster to make sure whatever damage they do sticks.

  18. Totally called it.

  19. It’s a Christmas miracle!

    Please sign the bill into law ‘fore the consumption overtakes me. I fear I don’t have long.

    1. Bugger off, you little miscreant. You damned street urchins need to get jobs.

    2. You certainly won’t have long once the government takes over your health care. You’ll be the first they let die.

    3. You don’t have long? Sorry, Tim, the wait lists for consumption treatment are 10 to 12 months long. Maybe you can see if your Dad can convince old Scrooge to pay cash upfront?

  20. The only reason they’re rushing so fast is to get it done before Robert Byrd dies.

    They’ll wheel him in on a stretcher if that’s what it takes to get to 60.

    1. Maybe the old bastard will smother himself in his sheet and pillowcase.

      1. While I think he’s a bit too old to be playing asphyxiation-related sex games, I really don’t care how he goes – just as long as he goes quickly.

  21. Maybe the old bastard will smother himself in his sheet and pillowcase hood.

    FTFY.

    1. That’s what I meant. Perhaps I was too subtle

    2. Now, that’s funny. Maybe they could outfit a gurney to look like a horse with its own sheet and hood.

      1. I’ll go to my grave without releasing my Civil War medical records. Screw you all.

        1. We do not care. Just go! (and hurry up.)

        2. You mean “The War of Northern Aggression”.

  22. Realistically, this is a winner for the country. What a grand representation of the absurdity to think Congress can “fix” any fucking thing. I feel compelled to re-post a previous comment:

    If this nightmare of a legislative soap opera, corrupt, self-serving and dysfunctional in every way, hasn’t sufficiently demonstrated to the people the sheer ineptitude of gubment, particularly that “diverse” group of morons known as the Democrats, then we might as well start drafting a national suicide pact. Ladies and gentelmen, comrades, Al Franken is a United States Senator. Enough said.

    It would be nice if the dolts in the Republican party would emphasize the catastrophic blow to individual rights with the insurance mandate.

    1. How about a civil disobedience campaign? People refusing to buy the gov’t-approved insurance, forming co-ops without all the mandates, etc. “Ho ho, hey hey, how many small businessmen have you killed today?” No?

      1. I was all excited about Bob Basso (aka Thomas Paine) ready to march on Washington. I was gonna go. Well, I was also gonna go as Ricky Steamboat for Halloween a couple years ago as well.

        I know this: I live in a typically “Red” state and know a ton of people that voted for Obama and are furious. I know a great deal of people that were never involved in politics that are counting down the days until they can cast a ballot. There are some truly pissed off people out there, on both sides of the “aisle,” that are disgusted with the jackasses in Washington.

        Where’s the really cool, hip, shout-out, biracial Libertarian candidate?

        I’d like to see the Judge run for office.

        1. “Where’s the really cool, hip, shout-out, biracial Libertarian candidate?”

          I’m old enough now and am Irish-German-Hungarian. Are those races?

          Oh sorry, I missed the “cool” and “hip” part. I’m out then.

      2. Your slogan rhymes, but it doesn’t scan. Try:

        Ho, ho, hey, hey!
        How many jobs have you killed today?

    2. Yeah, what Hank said.

  23. So much for the “Moderate” Democrats.

  24. Does the conference report have to pass cloture as well?

    1. Yes. They still have a long way to go.

      1. I’m pretty sure it doesn’t.

        1. My bad. You’re right, John.

        2. maybe not. Of course that makes his “I reserve the right to vote against he bill” seem even worse. He voted for it and then will vote against it when it doesn’t count. So he can claim he voted against the bill. What a scumbag.

    2. Nope.

  25. I better send a box of pretzels to Robert Byrd’s office, it might not be too late yet.

    1. He’s rarely there any more. They wheeled him in the other night to vote to break the filibuster on the defense bill, and his presence is so rare these days, when he showed up his colleagues applauded.

  26. Now, once they merge the bills into one big pile of heeping shit, and both houses have to vote for final passage, don’t they just need a simple majority to get it to the Comrade-in-Chief’s desk?

    1. No. It’s extremely rare, but you can filibuster a conference committee report. If the Dems try to sneak the public option back in, a filibuster is almost certain.

    2. No. The conference report can be filibustered and has to pass cloture. That’s why it’s really important about whether Nelson is reserving the right to support a filibuster of the conference report if parts of his deal are removed.

      It’s extremely rare for such a thing to happen, but this is a rare circumstance. Too much attention being paid here. In addition, there’s so much attention that I don’t think “voting for it before voting against it” will work. Voting for cloture is the decisive part.

    3. It would be hilarious to see the conference report fail to get a majority in the House because of Rep. Stupak and the abortion language, but they’d probably go back and start over.

    4. The only ways to do this with a simple majority would be:

      1) The House accepts the Senate version without any amendments whatsoever, in which case it only takes 50.1% of the House, and no further votes at all from the Senate.

      2) The Ds go nuclear and pass it using reconciliation, which only requires 50.1% of both chambers, but which will result in the effective end of the 60% supermajority needed to pass anything substantive, since the Rs will take revenge and use reconciliation on everything when they inevitably gain control of the Senate in the future.

      Neither of these seems at all likely — but the Ds are desperate to pass this now, since they can feel the retribution coming in 2010.

      1. Why is #1 not likely?

        1. For one, there is a big difference in how these two piles of shit are funded. Well, I mean besides the theft element.

        2. 1) Because Rep. Stupak has said that the Senate bill’s abortion language is “unacceptable.”

          2) Because there’s still a huge faction of House Democrats who hate the exact composition of the Senate bill. One big one is the tax on expensive (union included) employer plans, instead of the House-preferred tax on rich people.

          The 10% tax on tanning beds in the compromise is another nice F-you to people who are Not Our Kind by the Congress.

          1. I don’t know, but I would not put it beyond Pelosi to get a majority of votes for the Senate version through a combination of bribes, threats, and promises to change things later.

          2. 10% tax on tanning beds? Wtf! There goes my Ricky Steamboat idea. Not cool.

            1. The nanny state hates orange people.

              1. No wonder John Boehner opposes the bill…

          3. expensive (union included) employer plans

            Anyone have any idea what the definition of “expensive (union included) employer plans” is?

            1. Anyone have any idea what the definition of “expensive (union included) employer plans” is?

              It’s whatever golden packages they’ve immorally “bargained” for themselves with the state’s threat of force* as muscle, distorting prices and other market mechanisms for the rest of us.

              *See: NLRA

  27. I knew it was gonna happen and I knew it was gonna suck. We’ll just have to wait until the conference committee is done stuffing the casing till we find out what a glorious clusterfuck has been wrought.

    Hey Karl Rowe WTF happened to the permanent Republican majority anyway? Yeah, I lay some of the blame on the Bush administration for driving a 10+ loss of seats in the senate in only two elections. If the Dems stay unified, they can do whatever the fuck they want. Next up, the Cap and Trade Giveaway aka the Lubeless Assrape of American Energy Users.

    1. If the Dems stay unified, they can do whatever the fuck they want.

      Yeah, but it was so important to give them unified control and a filibuster proof Senate majority because the Bush Administration was so bad, right? The Bush Administration absolutely deserves much blame, but the libertarians who wanted to punish the rest of us in order to punish the Republicans deserve some too.

      1. Indeed. All the ranting about the horrors of the Bush administration, and the dangers of McCain/Palin, look pretty minor right now, don’t they?

        1. For all of McCain’s short-comings, he at least vowed to put a spending freeze on in Washington. Now, there’s no telling if he would have even remembered saying this if he was actually elected, similar to the way it seemed to elude him that he in fact “warned” of the Fannie, Freddie debacle.

          1. And the Dems bitch-slapped McCain for suggesting a spending freeze… although Obama suggested something like that earlier this year, which just proves his Lord High Hypocrite bonafides.

            1. And don’t you love it that after decades of portraying Republicans as heartless misers for wanting to “cut” Medicare by (e.g.) supporting only a 2% spending increase instead of a 4% increase, the Democrats are partly funding this monstrosity with billions of dollars cut from Medicare?

              1. Almost forgot about the Dem playbook tactic of calling something a “cut” when it was in reality a cut of increase in next year’s budget:

                “The budget increase for [insert any government program/agency] was set to be 5%, but it’s now only going to be 3.8%.”

                “You’re slashing the budget!”

                Never mind that [insert government agency or program] is STILL gonna get more money.

                Chad and Tony support stuff like this.

              2. Only a naive, credulous visitor from another dimension bwould believe that this monstrosity will be funded by medicare cuts.

                Ain’t.
                Gonna.
                Happen.

                1. Of course, but the hypocrisy point still stands.

                  1. Torture can be done, basically, for free.

                    Giving more money to government – voluntarily or coerced – is a lot more damaging than waterboarding a murderer.

          2. Yeah, that spending freeze on Washington while spending more billions on bombing Iran.

        2. I’d rather pay thousands more in taxes each year than to know that one red cent of what I pay the feds is going to torture people. YMMV.

          1. Hmmmm, torture KSM or tax us into an economic armageddon? Hold your breath, Sheikh! I’d prefer for our country to never torture anyone or kill anyone in a war, but waterboarding the Sheikh is about as high on my list as gay marriage is for Barry!

          2. I, too, would rather Ecolibertarian voluntarily pay thousands more in taxes in each year than to allow feds to torture people.

            Not about to advocate forcing anyone to pay more against their will.

          3. I will pay double my taxes if I can watch Ecolibertarian get tortured.

            What a moron.

      2. Like me? Who chose not to cast my ballot for a party that rabidly supported two unwinnable wars,* violated privacy rights wholesale, tortured people who they didn’t have enough evidence to prosecute, gave us NCLB and the Medicare Prescription Drug Benefit.

        Hard to believe a libertarian couldn’t get on board with all that.

        * Afghanistan should have been a punitive expedition and over years ago. Iraq was just plain dick swinging stupid.

        1. And how has Obama improved the things on your list? My point (and I think John Thacker’s) is not to praise Bush or McCain, just to say that the focus on their flaws got us someone much worse by almost every measure.

          1. FTR, I didn’t vote for Obama or any Democrats in the legislature. I didn’t vote for Republicans either.

            A guy borrows your car, fucks your girlfriend in it, crashes it into a tree and leaves it. Then he comes back to you a week later and says, “We’re still buddies, right? Can I borrow a couple of C-notes?”

            That is how the GOP treats libertarians. And some of the libertarians, suffering from the political equivalent of battered wife syndrome, say “Sure. Here’s two hundred dollars. You won’t fuck me over again, will you buddy?”

            1. Well you sure showed them. I hope you are happy.

              1. McCain “suspended” his campaign to bail out morons who invested in MBSs. You remember that don’t you? McCain fucking co-authored the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Free Speech Suppression Act. You remember that, don’t you? I’m supposed to vote for him in good conscience after years of watching his wishy-washy spending habits (Dem lite at best)?

                No thank you sir. I cast my ballot for Bob Barr even though he had no chance to win and a running mate who’s worse than either Biden or Palin.

                They (the GOP) really love us. They won’t beat us any more and they say they’re sorry.

                You may not get it, but I do. I’ll be voting for third parties until the majority in either major party displays some fiscal discipline and respect for my rights. Probably till I die.

                Sheesh.

                1. I’m with J sub D on this one. I too voted for Paul, then Barr, for the same reasons.

            2. FTR, I didn’t vote for Obama or any Democrats in the legislature.

              Only because the election wasn’t held on 9/19/08 and Michigan was greater than a 3 point spread on election day,right? (J sub D quote at link)

              I’m sooo tired of being betrayed by the Republicans that if the election were held today, I’d vote Obama because Michigan polling has him and McCain close.

              If Michigan in November is > a 3 point spread either way, it’ll be Barr.

              1. Yep. That were me. My disgust with the GOP has been brewing for quite some time. As Obama’s politics became clearer, I later posted (too lazy to do a site search) that I had discarded Obama as a possibility.

                You have no idea how much the Bipartisan Campaign Finance Free Speech Suppression Act angered me.

                1. BTW, I love the way H&R site search allows folks to dig up your old comments and throw them in your face.

                  1. I actually remembered that one J sub D.
                    I never would have found it w/o the search though.”The Libertarian Case For Obama” thread lol!

                2. Are you suggesting McCain is a Republican? I voted for McCain for one reason and one reason only: putting Obama in the White House with fools running Congress was eminently disasterous. I am going to give myself a you-were-absolutely-right on that one.

                  I was more or less disgusted with having the two viable choices coming out of Congress in the first place. I certainly would have voted for Paul – if he was mulatto and hip, of course. I see Congress as a much bigger problem than the President. Ask yourself this: who funds our government? Bush? That would be Congress.

        2. J sub D … and how is that working out for you?

          1. So far, better than GWBs throwing lives and civil liberties away immediately after September 11, 2001.

            But that’s not nearly as important as ACORN (fucking douchebags) and the health care reform clusterfuck.

    2. Well, the House may still find a way to revise it to get the Senate below 60 again.

      But, yeah, I’m guessing a lot of pork will be used to grease the skids and keep that from happening.

      I’m thinking some nutjob assassinating one of the D Senators might be the only way to stop this now.

      Not that I’m advocating anyone doing that — just pointing out the underlying purpose understood by the FF regarding the Second Amendment when it was originally ratified.

      1. I don’t think assassination was the intention of the 2nd Amendment. In any case, an assassination would certainly backfire anyway.

      2. I don’t recall Revolutionary War leaders assassinating British officials, for instance.

        1. There was John Andre, but he had a trial before I hanged him. Not a good precedent.

        2. The Revolutionary War leaders waited until things got way out of hand (by 1770s standards — they’d have declared another revolution long ago if the feds treated them like we get treated now), then started shooting British officials wearing military uniforms.

          IIRC from the recent history “1776”, things got a bit tense for certain Loyalist civilians in Boston when the British pulled out. Can’t recall if any got killed.

          1. started shooting British officials wearing military uniforms.

            You were talking about civilian officials. Big difference.

          2. You were talking about assassination of civilian officials. Big difference.

        3. I do recall mass killing of civilians and militia (ambush w/ no quarter given until the last one was dead) in what the British called “the Southern Department”.

  28. Rep. Stupak calls the current language “unacceptable.” We’ll see if “unacceptable” means that he really can’t accept it; i.e., would vote against a conference report with it.

  29. I think “unacceptable” is Newspeak for “I want a huge helping of pork too, just like Nelson got.”

  30. Pay no attention to that socialism behind the curtain.
    We’re getting snow! Snow! Mere totalitarianism pales by comparison.

  31. If the final bill is like the original, it won’t take effect until 2013. This matters because it won’t affect anyone till after the next potus election. So whether or not it is damaging to the dems is up to the press. Now obviously this also gives republicans a lot of time to pick it apart and expose all the bullshit in it. It will be interesting to see if the left can once again rally the young, the poor and the undecideds. Republicans haven’t exactly shown that they are capable of producing candidates that capture the majority of shallow voters necessary to shift the balance of power.

    1. Indeed. Looks like they think the insurance mandate might prove unpopular when people actually start getting fined.

    2. Not so fast brotherben, people will feel some taxes sooner than later. And with no “benefits” until later. The Repubs, Kay Bailey in particular, have been highlighting this little nugget quite a bit. That’s part of the CBO score deceit – 10 years of score with 10 of revenue and 6 of “services.” Them Dems are tricky.

      1. Precisely. Since the benefits won’t have kicked in yet, might this mean there is a chance at repealing the bill?

    3. I’m also waiting for the public to understand the tax on “medical devices,” which includes (among other things) motorized wheelchairs! Yeah, let’s help the sick and make healthcare more affordable by taxing wheelchairs! Brilliant! It’s too bizarre even for an Onion satire….

      1. Forgot to say: Imagine the Republican campaign ad that could make for 2010.

  32. It will also depend on what the economy does. We left Copenhagen with a promise to give more of China’s money to the poor countries but left cap nd trade behind for now. If the economy, through some miracle of god, actually rebounds in a way that is meaningful to Joe average, the dems are gonna get all the credit in the press and gain more seats in Comgress and keep the whitehouse. This can all happen before health reform comes into play in our economy.

    Throw in the head of Bin Laden and it’s a done deal. So much can happen and as was seen in 2004, if the opposition runs a weak candidate (Kerry) voters are hesitaant to swap for an unknown entity.

    1. It will also depend on what the economy does. … If the economy, through some miracle of god, actually rebounds in a way that is meaningful to Joe average, the dems are gonna get all the credit in the press and gain more seats in Comgress and keep the whitehouse. This can all happen before health reform comes into play in our economy.

      Yep. This is exactly right. The elections are still 11 months from now. And 11 months is a lifetime in our fluid, digitalized, media-savvy, ephemeral modern culture. The Feiler Faster Thesis and all that.

    2. The economy is not turning around. Too much uncertainty. Also, there is going to be a tax increase when the Bush tax cuts expire. The economy is going to continue to tank. If I were just a hack and didn’t care about the country, I would be praying this thing passes because it will destroy the Dems. But, I would prefer to just not see it pass even if it keeps the Dems in power.

      1. John, I respectfully suggest that due to interference, guidance, and undo influence by governments around the world on so many aspects of our economy, it is impossible to predict what the economy will do. Too many unknowns chnging almost continually.

        1. It is impossible to predict with perfect certainty how any economy is going to do. You can, however, make a pretty educated guess based on government policies and conditions. And all of those point to it not going well. It might turn around. You never know. But I wouldn’t bet on it.

        2. How exactly would our economy turn around? Based on what? We barely have an economy. We’ll be lucky to have a banking system at this rate in 2011. One of the foundations upon which our economy sits is confidence and that is waning. The people who saw this nightmare coming (certainly not me) see it only getting worse.

          It may be time for the Fair Tax to make its way into the mainstream.

        3. And if you set a bull loose in a china shop, it’s nearly impossible to predict exactly what will happen. It’s pretty easy to predict that he won’t make the china shop more neat and organized, though.

          1. Redistribution of broken china.

          2. Actually a Mythbusters episode disproved the bull in a china shop thing..

            1. Then maybe the should change their name to FigureOfSpeechBusters.

              “Next up… is a bird in hand worth two in a bush?”

      2. Actually, there are signs of the recession having ended (though no one actually knows this stuff until well after the fact).

        It is certainly possible for things to turn around noticeably by November, or for things to tank again and cause the Ds to lose seats left and lefter.

        1. The quarter growth they’re trumpeting is roughly equal to the funny money Uncle Sam pumped into the economy. I guess you could say that the economy contracted at a slower rate, for what that’s worth.

          1. Cash for clunkers/ housing tax credits – WORD!

    3. “If the economy, through some miracle sorcery of Satan, the god of all Democrats, actually rebounds in a way that is meaningful to Joe average Idiot, the dems Dims are gonna get all the credit in the press 0bama propaganda machine and gain more seats in Congress the Parliament of Whores and keep the White House of Ill Repute.”

    4. We left Copenhagen with a promise to give more of China’s money to the poor countries

      [spit-take]

  33. Hey, crayon, here’s your REAL pay-for-play scandal. Forget your jihad concerning Reason’s “puff-piece articles” – Ben Nelson just got bribed with taxpayer money to support puff-piece legislation.

  34. CORRUPTION IN NEBRASKA – NO TAXES FOR NEBRASKA “OTHER STATES TO PAY” – Nelson secured full federal funding for his state to expand Medicaid coveragel. Other states must pay. “That is really spreading the wealth around.” Now the rest of the US pays for NEBRASKA’S WELFARE.

    Nelson has shown my children how to cheat the system, to be bribed and to get what you desire at any cost ? even compromising the integrity of his office.

  35. Abortion isn’t the killer issue. The issue is still whether the congressional black caucus will vote for saving Obama’s presidency or vote with their constituents who demand the public option. That is, unless the public option comes out of conference.

  36. I should add that there are some liberal white congressfolk facing the same hard choice.

  37. “Other states must pay a small portion of the additional cost” = budget crushing burden for the states when this thing spirals out of control, as it did in Tennessee, Mass, and Oregon

    Nelson got an incredible deal for Nebraska, I’m surprised other senators did not do the same for their states

    1. Some have. Bernie Sanders got 10 billion for Vermont and Landrieu got a ton for Lousiana. Who is next? The bill is unpopular. There is no political downside to opposing it. Why not shake them down for some pork if you are a Dem?

      1. Landrieu is indeed a porker.
        Squeal like a pig, Mary!

      2. sanders got the $10 billion for “community health centres” (ie, like Acorn, but with a “health” cover story) throughout the country, not just in vermont

        landrieu got $300 million, which is nothing compared to the value of what Nelson got

    2. I think the other Ds are idiots for not demanding huge levels of goodies. Say, exempting the citizens in their state from federal income tax. Reid will pay just about anything to get this done.

      1. Serious question: is there anything stopping the Dems from actually doing so? (Or at least extending the Nebraska deal to all Dem states?)

        1. Well, there’s the Constitution, but if they took that seriously, this whole fucking bill would be tossed in the nearest rubbish bin and the person proposing it impeached or something.

  38. Nebraska, the Do-Me State!?

    1. Cornholers!

      1. HURR DURR HURR HUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRR

        CORN IN YOUR HOLE

        DURR HURR DURR HURR

        1. OK, this Hurr Durr shit is getting old.

  39. Nelson got an incredible deal for Nebraska, I’m surprised other senators did not do the same for their states

    I’m sure some of those Senators are wondering the same thing about now, and it is only one of

    1. loyalty to party over their constituents
    2. a Vader like plan to alter the deal later on

    that is keeping them from kicking up a fuss about it.

  40. Sen. Nelson threatened or bribed? “It has been reported that the Obama Administration threatened the closure of a U.S. military installation for political purposes, thereby bringing into question the integrity of the Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC) process. The BRAC process was established to remove political influence so that the decision to close or not to close a military installation could be based upon military utility.”

  41. “The BRAC process was established to remove political influence”

    A sure sign of a BS program is a government program designed to try and stop “political influence” in an area. How insane do you have to be to think that’s gonna fly? “Politics” is what government does.

    1. Actually, hasn’t the BRAC worked pretty well (at least up until now)?

      1. Clinton took couple bases slated for closure off the final list in ’96 in California and Texas IIRC. After that the BRAC process was changed. The president gets the final list of recommendations and signs yes or no on the entire think. He can’t amend it anymore.

  42. You were talking about civilian officials in the original comment. Big difference.

  43. Good bye Democratic Party, nice knowing you!

    This stupid mess of a “reform” will kill that party, a small compensation for how much harm and discomfort it will inflict on America…

    1. What, are you joining the Greens now MNG?

      1. CPUSA could use a few good comrades, MNG…

    2. You think that 2,000 pages of legislation leading to at least 10X that in regulations isn’t going to make our system more efficient, cover more people and cheaper?

      From a government that’s fully funding free golf carts for the wealthy?

      Color me shocked.

      1. At the rate they are bribing each other to sign on, the bill will be 10,000 pages an 10 trillion dollars. Nelson’s payoff might actually turn into a good thing as the other 90 plus senators get in line with their hands out. Maybe it will blow up in Reid’s face and become such a huge ball of post-colonic pork that it will die?

        1. Nah, just the other 59. The Rs don’t dare propose voting for it. Their constituents know this is a big steaming pile of … something.

    3. Doesn’t much matter does it MNG seeing that catastophic global warming will kill us all before this legislation even becomes active? And even a political whore like you cannot believe that a cap and trade scheme can stop that.

    4. MNG, a true liberal with sanity. Even though your still a statist (smile), your in a different universe than Tony and Chad regarding reason and integrity.

  44. Finally, MNG, something we can agree on.

  45. A sure sign of a BS program is a government program designed to try and stop “political influence” in an area.

    I was watching some idiot on the teevee this morning telling Al Hunt about the dire need for a National Debt Commission.

    The “extra-political commission” is the politicians’ cry for help: “Please, somebody save us from ourselves- we are too venal and stupid to make intelligent decisions, because we are helplessly locked into an endless cycle of electioneering. We want to be noble and good, but we can’t. Oh, woe.”

    1. Please, somebody save us from ourselves- we are too venal and stupid to make intelligent decisions, because we are helplessly locked into an endless cycle of electioneering.

      Easily done.

      1. We need a Voter’s Summit.

        1. We need a revolution. I like to think we’re getting real damned close.

  46. “I know this is hard for some of my colleagues to accept and I appreciate their right to disagree,” Nelson told reporters at the Capitol, of the many changes made at his behest. “But I would not have voted for this bill without these provisions.”

    “If you play this stuff backwards, it says ‘This sucks!'”

  47. I’m very disappointed. New York is way more powerful than Nebraska, yet our two liberal senators couldn’t sell their vote for at least as much as Nelson, Landrieu and Sanders.

    Kirsten and Chucky, New Yorkers are gonna have their way with you- we put you there to bring home the bacon, we got nothing but the highest taxes in the land, now we have to pay more so those folks in Lousiana and Nebraska can have stuff for free? Thanks, guys, I can’t wait for election day!

    1. Actually, there is an interesting explanation for why NY isn’t getting any goodies: listening to Gov Paterson on the radio the other day, he said that there was literally nothing that the Feds could offer up because NY’s medicaid program is SO plush, that even with the new (state) mandates with respect to Medicaid under the Senate bill, NY’s Medicaid program is STILL more generous than the bill. So passage of the bill doesn’t add to NYs direct state costs.

      Rather a sad statement on the state of affairs in NY, don’t you think?

  48. I was disappointed in Ben at first, but then he said “in his heart of hearts” he had to vote for the bill. I don’t remember the last time I cried, but I came close to sharting at that very moment.

    1. “sharting”? Is that like a combination of sharing and farting?

      1. Maybe shitting and farting?

        1. It’s a fart that results in a little shit coming out.

  49. Wouldn’t this kind of bill have an equal-protection problem? After all, why are the states not being treated equally by the federal government?

    1. I had the same initial reaction.

      But it seems “this kind of bill” is not, um, unprecedented.

    2. As far as I can tell it’s your blessed federalism/states rights TAO. The states have always set a lot of the rules for programs like Medicaid, the feds just supply the dollars and a few rules. This allows each state to be lil’ labs of experiment and all that other shit that’s supposed to be so great about federalism…

      “Medicaid is the United States health program for eligible individuals and families with low incomes and resources. It is a means-tested program that is jointly funded by the states and federal government, and is managed by the states”

      The states can set the rules, including eligibility, and the feds pay the bills essentially. Here the feds just said “hey Nebraska, you can set your eligibility at x level and we will boost the funds to cover it.”

      Is this another one of your states rights positions where states rights and federalism is great, except where it ain’t?

      1. MNG,
        Is this another one of your states rights positions where states rights and federalism is great, except where it ain’t?

        MNG, you dont even seem to have a prelimnary understanding of what states rights are and what federalism is – essentially, this means that states have the freedom to set their own course without the Federal Govt coercing its will upon the state or coercing the state to toe it’s line.

        What Ben Nelson did was to scrounge money from all other states that are going to poney up to pay for the Nebraskan bribe. As you may already know, there is no such thing as “federal money” – its tax money from richer states that keeps this so called “means-tested program that is jointly funded by the states and federal government, and is managed by the states”

        Nowhere in my understanding of federalism did I come across the notion that states rights includes the right to use the coercive powers of the federal govt against one state to satisy the needs of another.

        Pardon me if i dont understand federalism correctly, I am afterall Indian and probably dont get the nuances of American federalism.

  50. Lenin…”the goal of socialism is communism”

  51. Nelson is a clever guy. He said he reserves the right to change his mind depending on what comes out of the conference committee…. Which means he may just get to rape the taxpayers (in the name of NEBRASKA!) a second time.

  52. What sitting Senator, who actively campaigns for re-election, is likely to be defeated?

    Any names?

    1. There are loads of senators up in 2010, and if the election was held today would be defeated. Reid in Nevada, Dodd in Connecticut and Lincoln in Arkansas are probably the most vulnerable. Then there is Landrieu and I believe someone in North Dakota also is in big trouble. They are all democrats btw.

      1. Landrieu is safe until 2014.

  53. “He may be a mendacious, venal idiot, but by golly, when you get right down to it, he’s OUR mendacious, venal idiot. If it wasn’t for those OTHER ninety-eight venal idiots who represent those other states, this would truly be the land of milk and honey.”

  54. While the public option or expanding medicaid aren’t in this bill, according to Tom Harkin they’re just laying the groundwork. Bit by bit and little by little we’re inching toward complete socialism.

  55. I don’t know what kind of health care reform will come out of this session, but I strongly suspect it won’t be much. There is, however a silver lining behind this very dark cloud. I am reminded of the Civil Rights Act of 1957. Don’t be embarrassed if you’ve never heard of it, there really isn’t a hell of a lot to remember about it; a mere pittance, really – a scrap of leftovers tossed out to “American Negros” (in the parlance of the age) in order to appease them. But it made the passing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 – the one we remember – all-the-more easier seven years later.

    We’ll live to fight another day.

    http://www.tomdegan.blogspot.com

    Tom Degan

    1. “We” is an interesting choice of words.

    2. The reason it was “a mere pittance” is because the Democrats controlling the Senate and House gutted the Eisenhower Administration’s proposed bill. The Eisenhower bill looked very much like the later 1964 bill did. And the mastermind of the gutting was a Democratic Senator named Lyndon Johnson. The Dems were reactionary ratbags then and they remain reactionary ratbags today.

  56. I just want to know if he made Ben Nelson squeal when Nelson whored himself to Harry Reid.

    Bend over Ben, I know you’re going to enjoy this, just like the American taxpayer will…

  57. I’m calling both my senators and asking what kind of lousy, good-for-nothing whores they are. They’re giving it away for free while Ben, Mary and Bernie, among others, are making Harry pay through the nose (well, what the heck, it’s not his money). What a coupla chumps.

  58. What kind of jail do you go to if we don’t buy insurance and pay penalties? What happens to the government’s tax base when productive members of society are imprisoned? Maybe Castro knows the answer to that one.

    I think if enough people ignore the law, they might have to rethink the whole mandate plan. BTW, the mandate seems to have worked wonders in Massachusetts!

    Fuck everyone who voted for Obama, because now we’re all living in Massachusetts!

    1. the same kind of jail you go to when you don’t pay your taxes

      funny how this forced insurance purchase provision has all of the characteristics of a tax, yet somehow isn’t scored as such by the CBO

  59. You should stop whining abou Obama and the Democrats and acknowledge the real problem: Bush and the radical right wing, who spent us into oblivion causing our economy to collapse and American health care to fall below even Cuba. Obama is the one charged with fixing all of the problems caused by Bush, but no one wants to discuss Bush and all the damage he caused America. Once healhcare is free, we can stop making the insurance companies rich and spend our money to bring the economy back to the Clinton years. All Bush cared about was making Big Insurance, Big Oil, and Haliburton rich, and did not care about social justice and making sure everyone had a social safety net. Obama has been a great President but none of you want to admit it beause he is black.

    1. Good job hitting all the usual themes, and not bad on believability, but without any real cognitive dissidence, I’m unwilling to go any higher than a 4.5.

      Oh, wait. You got the racist thing. We’ll make it a 5.0.

      1. You have to subtract some points for the use of “Bush”. All the experts have retreated to referring to “eight years of …”.

      2. Always nice when one sees right through me!

    2. I was going to reply, but that would be feeding the troll.

    3. Once healhcare is free

      Quick, call Reid and Pelosi, because they forgot to include that feature in any of the bills. Love the typo, though: it’s pronounced “hellcare” I suppose?

      we can stop making the insurance companies rich and spend our money to bring the economy back to the Clinton years.

      Not quite. U.S. real GDP per capita 2000: $39,750. In 2008: $43,714. I suspect Obamacare will cost more than that, and take us back to the Bush 41 or even the Reagan years.

    4. Yes, because you know we all loved the Medicare Part D from Bush because he’s a honkey and all.

  60. Obama has been a great President but none of you want to admit it beause he is black.

    Yeah, that’s right, dude. We can’t stand the fucker cuz he’s black. Right. Now run along stoopid little troll.

    1. Yeah, we’d all be fucking nodding our heads and saying, yeah, this health care reform is exactly in line with libertarian principles, if Biden was running the show.

      It’s all about the skin melanin levels with us.

      1. It’s just a tan.

        1. Oh yeah, take this (as he throws a statue)

  61. Obama has been a great President but none of you want to admit it beause he is black.

    I think that I can honestly state that my opinion of Obama, despite him having a black father, is no lower than the opinion I would have had for a President John Edwards.

  62. The more I am reading what is going on in America during the presidency of comrade Obama, the more I appreciate Lenin’s phrase “the worse, the better.” I started even thinking that it would be better in the long run if the democrats pushed through the Obamacare. After all, the taxes kick in instantly, while the free stuff comes much later. There will be a lot of pain ? with no apparent gain.

    And note that the plan are not known to the public yet – so the details will be slowly dripping, one by one, before 2010 elections. Imagine the ads – senator-congressman such-and-such voted for tax increase, while our economy is in horrible shape. It will be a death by a thousand cuts.

    At soem point, GOP should be able to cleanse itself from the “moderates”, become a solid right-wing party and decisively win the 2010 and 2012 elections. Hopefully, when that happens they will reverse majority of left-wing laws.

    Personally, I don’t see any other way to stop the creeping socialism. If we want a drastic turn from the path to hell, we may need a very loud wake up call. And Obama is pretty loud these days?

    Back in November 2008 I expained why I welcomed Obama’s presidency. It seems like my predictions are coming true.
    http://hyphenatedamericans.blo…..ma_02.html

    Right now, conservatives must defend two things above all ? freedom of the press and our electoral process. Everything else can wait.

  63. There is something morally repulsive about accepting a bribe for your state while imposing upon all the people of this country a bad bill. Throw the bums out.

    1. Regarding health care “reform,” this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.

    2. nelson is a democrat, what did you expect?

  64. Anyone else notice that both Tony and Chad are suspiciously absent from this thread?

    1. We had a meeting at the White House. Do you have any idea how many comrades it will take (eventually) to administer single-payer to 300 million plus? Let me try again: IT ISN’T EVEN FEASIBLE TO HAVE A SINGLE-PAYER.

  65. It is threads like this that make me miss Joe, I’d love to see him try to defend the Nelson Buyout.

    1. He is not on here because liberals dont’ care. They know they are done in 2010 and that Obama is a one term president. They have accepted that. They just want to do as much damage as possible and make it irreversible while they can.

      1. I’d love to believe the liberals are done in 2010.

        I don’t. I predict this is just the beginning of their rise to real power.

        Liberals have a vision to remake America. Republicans essentially have no principles left. Libertarians just want to be left alone.

        You know the how negotiations work, it’s “well let’s be fair and meet in the middle”.

        Guess who’s fucked.

  66. I am Tony and Chad’s bastard love turd … I represent their presence in this thread.

    Stop all your whining libertards … don’t you know that you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet! You also have to strain a bit to lay some cable, and have to tug a bit to get some relief.

  67. Can we at least agree to stop calling this thing a “health care reform bill” and instead call it what it really is a “health insurance reform bill”.

    Or, if we want to bring in a little less newspeak, a “health insurance company bailout bill”

  68. And Nelson has explicitly reserved the right to vote against final passage of the reconciled bill should any significant changes occur.

    That’s code for “Don’t think you’re done buying my vote – all you’ve bought so far is cloture. If you want a ‘yes’ vote on final passage and on the reconciled bill it’s gonna cost you.”

    This is why all politics is essentially legalized corruption and racketeering.

  69. This bill stinks, no one’s even read it, no one’s seen the whole thing, and this is government by the people and for the people? Heck my IL senators (dumb and dumber) won’t even listen to the majority of their constituents; they intend to vote for this POS. Despite months of denials by the dumber one, who says he wouldn’t vote for any senate bill that didn’t have the public option…. he’s a big dumb liar.

    Anyway, I’m gonna go find my rope and get more ammo.

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