The Menace of Overeager Cub Scouts
Newark, Delaware, 6-year-old Zachary Christie was so excited about the all-in-one eating tool he got when he joined the Cub Scouts that he brought it to school so he could use it at lunch. Anyone familiar with the "zero tolerance" idiocy that has swept the nation in the last decade can guess what happened after that. The only real question is whether Zachary was expelled or merely suspended. Answer: He was suspended
for 45 days. But he might have been better off if he had been expelled, because a new state law gives school officials some discretion in expulsion cases involving students who unknowingly violate rules against weapons and drugs. The legislators neglected to address suspensions. The front-page New York Times story about the incident quotes "zero tolerance" defenders who say distinguishing among offenders based on intent can be dangerous:
Some school administrators argue that it is difficult to distinguish innocent pranks and mistakes from more serious threats, and that the policies must be strict to protect students.
"There is no parent who wants to get a phone call where they hear that their child no longer has two good seeing eyes because there was a scuffle and someone pulled out a knife," said George Evans, the president of the Christina district's school board….
Charles P. Ewing, a professor of law and psychology at the University at Buffalo Law School who has written about school safety issues, said he favored a strict zero-tolerance approach.
"There are still serious threats every day in schools," Dr. Ewing said, adding that giving school officials discretion holds the potential for discrimination and requires the kind of threat assessments that only law enforcement is equipped to make.
Evans' concern might be grounds for a uniform rule against knives, but it does not justify treating all violators the same, regardless of age or intent. And contrary to Ewing, you don't need police training to tell the difference between an overeager Cub Scout with a nifty camping tool and a budding thug who brings a switchblade to school in anticipation of a fight.
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"He's got a spork!"
Pity that school administrators can't have zero-tolerance over vapid and idiotc zero-tolerance rules.
"He's got a spork!"
Swarm! Swarm!
I'm still waiting for the day when a student blows up a school because of some stupid zero-tolerance enforcement.
'If I'm going to get in trouble for nothing, I might as well really earn it.'
And contrary to Ewing, you don't need police training to tell the difference between an overeager Cub Scout with a nifty camping tool and a budding thug who brings a switchblade to school in anticipation of a fight.
You mean the same way it's easy to tell the difference between lawful firearms used for defensive purposes, and assault weapons used by criminals.
Correction, Warren needs this training. The rest of the adult population of the U.S. does not.
Criminals don't use assault weapons.
I suppose if by "assault weapon" you mean "a made up category of firearm that some find aesthetically displeasing" then, well, you've still managed to pick the form of firearm LEAST likely to be used by a criminal.
After all, who's going to go buy a gun that most likely costs in excess of a kilobuck just so they can rob a liquor store?
If you can afford to spend a kilobuck on a gun, you don't really need to knock over the liquor store, after all.
Of course you do. How else are you going to pay for the gun?
Way things are now, knocking over the store might pay for the ammo.
"There are still serious threats every day in schools," Dr. Ewing said, adding that giving school officials discretion holds the potential for discrimination and requires the kind of threat assessments that only law enforcement is equipped to make.
Well, if having some discretion means making assessments using the same level of competence as law enforcement, then maybe zero tolerance is better.
Touche'
I'm just waiting for my daughter's school to fuck up so I can introduce them to my zero tolerance policy.
It is always amazing to me that the people supposedly in charge of educating children are so incapable of simple common sense and cannot exercise any good judgement. I think I'm with you guys on getting rid of the Department of Education.
Wouldn't cure the problem. Dep't of Ed has no rule mandating that school boards hire pricks as principals and superintendents. They just do it on their own. Or people turn into pricks as soon as they take on those jobs, I don't know.
There are many other reasons to get rid of the Dep't of Ed, though.
Yeah, I'd agree that the Dept. of Education isn't the real problem...
I nominate teachers' unions.
Correction noted and accepted.
I wonder what would happen if a kid with a Swiss Army knife attempted to hold the school's office hostage with a magnifying glass? "Meet my demands, or I will magnify the sun to give you a really deep burn! Don't move!" I think his threat would freeze the entire school administration into utter immobility.
I think you just stumbled upon the next South Park episode.
I can't move because he threatened to burn me, but if I keep still, he can burn me! What can I do? Help me, Obama, help me!
Meanwhile, for something the BoyScouts are doing that will have long-term societal impact, see this.
STFULW
More proof that public school teachers and adminstrators are morons who shouldn't be entrusted with our childrens' education.
Wow. So you can be a retard and still get a tenured position on a law school faculty?. I need to make a career change.
Dog bites man story. This kind of thing happens nearly every day.
Fuck government schools.
From the article:
My small brain is not equiped to handle this sort of logic.
Weeping Statue of Liberty
Before entering the Statue of Liberty, you will be searched and questioned. Anyone identified by security staff will be taken out of the line for the Statue of Liberty for secondary screening. Obey and answer all instructions and questions from Statue of Liberty. Any refusal to comply with an oder from Statue of Liberty security staff could result in arrest.
Do not taunt Statue of Liberty Security staff...
Don't mock this policy. I remember all those kindergarten knife fights back before zero tolerance was around. Lost a lot of good buddies that way. Problem was, you could never tell whose Swiss army knife was just there for fun and whose were out for blood.
Right on.
In real life, back in the day when I was a Cub Scout (1950s) we always carried our pocket knives to school on den meeting days. It was part of the uniform. After the meeting we went home and played with our Daisy Red Ryder BB guns. As far as I know, all of us who remain still have both eyes.
Looks like this kid brought a camping multi-tool to a gun fight.
"You mean the same way it's easy to tell the difference between lawful firearms used for defensive purposes, and assault weapons used by SWAT TEAMS."
FIFY
It is pretty upsetting that carrying a knife is becoming something you have to worry about the legality of. I've probably carried a pocket knife with me every day since I was 10 years old. Sure, a pocket knife can be used as a weapon, but so can any number of objects found in schools. I imagine I would prefer to be stabbed in the eye with a 3" pocket knife than with a pencil.
I've still got graphite in my hand and in my leg from when I was stabbed in elementary school by an angry 3rd grader. Are those kiddie scissors even still allowed?
Nothing says "fuck you" like a #2 Ticonderoga.
"And let that be a lesson to you, Sonny."
I did a twelve-month tour in the 'Ten. Yeah, I was there. Knee-deep in the shit, reading Janet & Mark, eating paste with my buddies just to take the fuckin' edge off.
I'll never forget the 'Ten. And even today, decades later, other vets can spot me instantly, 'cause, like them, I've got the thousand-yard stare.
Do you have flashbacks everytime you see a "Highlights" magazine?
Yo, fuck Goofus and Galliant!
No, actually I think it was Saturday Evening Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
And don't even get me started about my kids' school with a perfectly good ball diamond that goes unused because baseball requires the use of "weapons" -- bats. Somehow I made it through elementary school with rampant and unregulated bat use without ever seeing a single bat-related violent crime.
You're never too young to learn that authorities are stupid a lot more than they aren't.
the kind of threat assessments that only law enforcement is equipped to make.
Yes; a police professional would have had the good sense to handcuff the kid on the ground and then put a dozen rounds in the back of his head. Just to be sure the threat was neutralized.
They'd have to pepper-spray and tazer the corpse to be extra sure.
-jcr
"Zachary wears a suit and tie some days to school by his own choice because he takes school so seriously," said Debbie Christie, Zachary's mother[...]
At the age of 6, Zachary can officially be classified as a BAMF.
I think he is literally too cool for public school.
What would fix all of this is to identify those students actually interested in learning and making something of themselves and then separating them from the kids who are determined to be losers.
They have different goals in life, so it's obvious that the same type of instruction isn't going to be appropriate.
Zachary will be tuning out in 5...4...3...
I was going to suggest that these school administrators use the knife attachment to give each other lobotomies, but that seems to be entirely superfluous.
It literally boggles my mind that someone can say "suspending a kid for 45 days for bringing a groovy fork/spoon/knife tool to school makes sense", and be serious. I mean, fuck you. Really, just fuck you, asshole.
What I don't get is why these laws don't lead to the complete collapse of the use of truancy laws against homeschooling families.
Why doesn't every parent who wants to homeschool their kid in a district where they try to stop that just give their kid a Swiss Army knife to bring to school? Problem solved. Repeat every 45 days.
"Why doesn't every parent who wants to homeschool their kid in a district where they try to stop that just give their kid a Swiss Army knife to bring to school? Problem solved. Repeat every 45 days. "
That might look a little sketchy on a college application...
Hope no kid shows up with a couple of sticks from a tree. If they rub those sticks together, they risk starting a fire and being labeled an arsonist.
Here's hoping this kid starts a new mumbletypeg craze.
Zero tolerance policies are a necessity nowadays. Remember the time those kids did that stuff at that one school? Well, we wouldn't want THAT to happen again, would we?
Kindergarten, shit. I'm still only in Kindergarten. Every time I think I'm going to wake up back in the house. When I was home after preschool, it was worse. I'd wake up and there'd be nothing. . . . I hardly said a word to my folks until I said yes to a rocking horse. When I was here, I wanted to be there. When I was there, all I could think of was getting back onto the jungle gym.
I sat around waiting for cookies and milk, and for my sins, they gave me some.
How do the kids who eat school lunches actually eat them? Any utensil is a potential weapon. Are these schools only allowed to serve finger food?
They may use plastic spoons, just like they use in prisons.
And there's a spoon count at the door.
Have you seen school food in the past 20 years? Its all so soggy/mushy you can just pour it off the tray into your mouth. No utensils required.
Time to terminate the teacher's command, Pro Lib?
Hey, man, you don't talk to the Teacher. You listen to him. The man's enlarged my mind. He's a poet-warrior in the classic sense. I mean sometimes he'll... uh... well, you'll say "hello" to him, right? And he'll just walk right by you. He won't even notice you. And suddenly he'll grab you, and he'll throw you in a corner, and he'll say, "do you know that 'if' is the middle word in life? If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you, if you can trust yourself when all men doubt you"... I mean I'm no, I can't... I'm a little man, I'm a little man, he's... he's a great man. I should have been a pair of ragged claws scuttling across floors of silent seas...
I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream. That's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight... razor... and surviving.
Do they let kids sharpen pencils at this school?
He's out there operating without any decent restraint. Totally beyond the pale of any acceptable human conduct. And he is still in the school commanding his students.
Pro Lib, you're an errand boy sent by grocery clerks to collect a debt.
For Zachary, it is not school violence that has left him reluctant to return to classes.
"I just think the other kids may tease me for being in trouble," he said, pausing before adding, "but I think the rules are what is wrong, not me."
Smart kid.
Well, except for his noun-verb agreement.
It's a good lesson to learn at such a young age. Sometimes, the rules are wrong.
-jcr
Zachary is my new hero for saying that. And the best thing is, it's completely right. The schools today are so uptight about everything, but they never do anything to prevent it! My school tells us that we are not allowed to keep anything flammable in our lockers. 😛
Also, a student campaigning for Class President was banned from bringing in his bagpipes because he "could be smuggling drugs into the school." This is a school with 35 unguarded doors that allows backpacks, purses, lunch bags, instrument cases, etc., etc. If I wanted, I could find two hundred ways to smuggle drugs in without breaking a sweat. Yet this kid, who wanted to expose us to some culture, was banned. Stupid friggin' administrators.
And if Zachary ever reads this: Keep standing up for yourself, and never let anyone push you around. You're learning a strong life lesson at six years old, when most people don't learn it until they become an adult. Good for you!
"Father? Yes, son. I want to kill you."
"Charlie doesn't use a multi-tool!"
"The deadliest weapon in the world is a kindergartner and his eating multi-tool. It is your killer instinct which must be harnessed if you expect to survive in combat. Your eating multi-tool is only a tool. It is a hard heart that kills. If your killer instincts are not clean and strong you will hesitate at the moment of truth. You will not kill. You will become dead kindergartners and then you will be in a world of shit because kindergartners are not allowed to die without permission. Do you maggots understand?"
The part where I always get confused is how suspension from school is supposed to be punishment.
Well, at that age, it's because kids want to go to school and see their friends. When you get into the later years of elementary school, and then into junior high or high school, it's because you're not allowed to make up work that you missed, which can really hurt your grade, especially if you have a test on one of those days.
I'm weird, I guess. I despised school. It was like prison to me. (And I wasn't unpopular or anything -- I had plenty of friends growing up.)
I learned far more from a Sunday afternoon alone in the library than I ever did from a week taking those damned bus rides, sitting in those classrooms, fidgeting in those infernal wooden chairs, and being ordered around by other human beings.
I can certainly understand why my parents would have been concerned by a suspension. But I would have embraced it like a glorious gift from God.
"What is this Mickey Mouse shit? What are you two animals doing in my beloved head? Why is Private Pyle out of his bunk after lights out? Why is Private Pyle holding that eating multi-tool? Why are you not stomping Private Pyle's guts out?"
Sir, it is this Kindergartner's duty to inform the Teacher that Private Pyle has selected and locked open the Fish Scaling attachment.
It seems to me that legislation is needed in many jurisdictions to explicitly empower parents to strangle idiots who are too stupid to supervise children, but somehow manage to slip through the rigorous screening process that's meant to qualify school employees.
-jcr
They guy is just saying that school administrators are too stupid to be given any leway. When you consider that apparently you have to be brain dead to be a school administrator, is not all that unreasable; depressing but no unreasonable. Just remember the kind of nitwits this guy has working for him and cut him some slack.
We went back there and they had come and expelled every armed kid. There their weapons were in a pile. . . . A pile of little sporks. And I remember. . .I. . .I. . .I cried. I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized. . .like I was shot. . .Like I was shot with a diamond. . .a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought, my God. . .the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we. Because understand that these were not monsters. These were men. . .trained cadres. . .these men who taught with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love. . .but they had the strength. . .the strength. . .to do that. If I had ten classrooms of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral. . .and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to expel without feeling. . .without passion. . .without judgment. . .without judgment. Because it's judgment that defeats us.
This is my eating multi-tool. There are many like it but this one is mine. My eating multi-tool is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me, my eating multi-tool is useless. Without my eating multi-tool I am useless. I must open my eating multi-tool true. I must eat straighter than my enemy, who is trying to kill me. I must eat him before he eats me. I will. Before God I swear this creed: my eating multi-tool and myself are defenders of my country, we are the masters of our enemy, we are the saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen.
What would fix all of this is to identify those students actually interested in learning and making something of themselves and then separating them from the kids who are determined to be losers.
But James, that would be unfair! We have to tear down the achievers to the same level as everybody else, so nobody's feelings get hurt. That is the purpose of public schools, and they do a damn good job of it.
My buddy teaches first grade, he was upset that the smart kids and dumb kids were seperated. He thinks that's unfair to the dumb kids. Now guess what group he would have been in. Teachers applying for grad school have the lowest GRE score of any profession. We have the dumbest of the dumb teaching in public schools
Separating students isn't done on a large scale because intelligent students require intelligent teachers to instruct them.
If children are the future, as the cliche goes, then neither the mental limitations of the teacher nor the piss poor curriculum and design of the system should be limiting the advancement and accomplishment of students.
You're joking, right? Schools are designed to limit us (the students). I am a high school junior with a 3.90, 4 current AP classes, NHS neophyte, Key Club member, robotics team, chess club, and a paid tutor. I don't mean this to brag, but I'd like to think that I'm a "intelligent student." And, from my point of view, the school does everything it can to tear me and those like me down to the level of everyone else. For example, the above AP classes. There are no entrance tests, no required GPA. All you need is a parent's signature saying that you can take that class. AP classes are filled with idiots and morons, and the teachers are constantly coddling to them. I know people who are in normal-level classes that get more done than I do in my AP classes, because the teacher spends time with each of the idiots to make sure s/he understands. When that happens, I lose a part of my education, and when that part is made up of a $90 test that could cover a full year of college courses, I get pretty ticked. Besides that, the school spends tens of millions each year catering to the mentally retarded. I have no problem with that, but I do have a problem when they take precedence over the intelligent. The school spends millions teaching an idiot how to cook Mac n' Cheese, when they could be teaching the smarter ones how to cure cancer or detect Hawking radiation.
Sorry if that got a bit off topic - I don't often have the chance to rant about that, and it really irks me. 🙂
I remember all the idiots in the AP classes! I just dropped out and went to community college. It'll put you two years ahead of everyone, as long as you're not trying to go to Harvard. By the time when everyone else is graduating High School, you're already transferring as a Junior to a 4 year.
I went to high school in Alabama in the early 80's. Not only did pretty much every guy have a pocket knife, quite a few of us had a shotgun or a .22 in the truck or the window rack of the pickup truck. No one had a meltdown and shot up the school. But I guess it's different now.
It's only different because nervous ninnies and really old people say it is. They watched too much Leave it to Beaver, Andy Griffith and Brady Bunch, their real life memories are skewed by television fantasy. Who says television doesn't rot the brain?
giving school officials discretion holds the potential for discrimination and requires the kind of threat assessments that only law enforcement is equipped to make.
If they're that stupid, why would I want them anywhere near my children?
When my son was in nursery school he brought in his Mar's Attacks gun. It had a plastic globe with a throbbing brain inside and when you pulled the trigger it made sparks. He got scolded for bringing a weapon to show and tell. Fucking assholes. Has anyone yet grasped that people are too fucking stupid to have authority over other people yet? How is it we are not fit to govern ourselves, but are somehow fit to govern others???
When I was in public school most of the maiming was done with belt buckles. Are *they* still tolerated?
And, PL -- sheer poetry.
well pablo i went to a catholic school in the mid 90's and about everyone had a pocket knife, you never go anywhere without one. and during hunting season, the trucks had rifles and shotguns on the racks in tha parking lot in OMG "Full sSSight" for anyone to stela or use. THis was a city, not out in the counrty. people usd to leave on fridays for thier camps directly from school be it fishing or hunting. btw the rule on weapons was, not in the school parking lot only, and a knife was acceptable as long as it was a folded blade not longer than the palm of an adult hand, aka a pocket knife. heck there were times the prof would go some one toss me a knife i need to cut this or that.
how the world has changed for the dumber.
I think school administrators see themselves as akin to Kurtz in Apocalypse Now, anyway.
Mad props to the Full Apocalypse Metal Now mashup. Well played, gentlemen. Your employers must be very proud.
Send this boy to Harvard Law, where they can knock some sense into him.
Huh? There is a rigorous screening process, all right, but it's used to screen out candidates who have a brain.
Vietnam, school, it's all the same. Shit will mess you up.
Well, no shit. What have we got here, a fucking comedian? Private Joker. I admire your honesty. Hell, I like you, you can come over to my house and fuck my sister!
Now that's one friendly drill instructor.
When I think of the things I brought to school over the years excluding the few that could have gotten me in trouble (condoms, Ripple & weed), Swiss army knives, colas, candy, and a collection of Playboy Magazine comics and jokes at the request of a teacher who thought it would be fun to read some of the less bawdy ones in class to compare with the bawdy jokes in Chaucer, I think, man, these poor kids today have it rough.
"Prepare to charge! Affix tweezers!"
"There is no parent who wants to get a phone call where they hear that their child no longer has two good seeing eyes because there was a scuffle and someone pulled out a knife," said George Evans, the president of the Christina district's school board....
What does it say about a person that suggests eyes being gouged from their sockets as a hypothetical situation to illustrate the danger of allowing sharp objects be brought to school? More importantly, what does it say about the people that put this guy in charge of children?
Sharp objects (aka "weapons") not allowed in school = knives (pocket, switchblades, silverware), scissors (excluding "safety scissors"), etc.
Sharp objects (aka "weapons") allowed in school - pencils (if any vampires are around, these can be used as stakes through the heart), pens (there are six points on the face where death would result from a pen being stabbed there), "safety" scissors (one end has a curved end, so you have to use the other to stab), plastic eating utensils (deadliest weapon -- tie between the plastic knife and spork).
Screwed up school systems ftw.
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!
Even with reasonable supervision, kids beat each other up, give each other wedgies, and pick on one another in myriad ways. This has gone on from the beginning of human existence, and in particular has happened in private and parochial schools as well as in public ones. Let's drop the pretense that proper supervision can keep kids from hurting each other.
Try to write a non-vague school policy that will distinguish between the two specifically enough to prevent (a) children bringing weapons or objects they intend to use as weapons to school, and (b) discrimination lawsuits against the school district and principal.
As for the point about kindergarteners being harmless, I think your opinion might change if you got a gig as a teacher at the average Detroit city school. The little tikes can at least be used as temporary weapon custodians for their bigger buddies, if they're not using the weapons themselves.
If the teachers and administrators can't be expected to use even the minimal level of common sense and judgment required of distinguishing a truly threatening weapon from an eating utensil without risk of a lawsuit for discrimination, how can they be expected to exercise the much more difficult and subjective tasks of grading students work, or, heaven forbid, failing them (or does that even happen anymore)?
Besides, it would seem that they're just as likely to get sued over their handling of utterly stupid zero-tolerance policies when the results are as egregiously unjust as the present case.
Right - zero tolerance is the height of lazy. All responsibility for understanding is taken away from the judging party; they can simply point to the policy and smirk.
It's the same with mandatory minimum sentences for crimes - all nuance and discretion is removed from the situation.
Sad.
Long-term, by removing the exercise of judgment from human agents, you eliminate the very possibility of morality, which depends on choice and judgment. You also get totalitarianism. In other words, what is not explicitly allowed is forbidden, what is not forbidden is required.
My son was suspended for skipping school, go figure. He was also suspended 3 days before graduation for streaking bare assed. He was allowed to graduate, the principal and superintendent said they didn't want him back. He was the folk hero in the parking lot after the ceremony.
The denial of reality that characterizes the War on Drugs Sanity is also evident in Zero Tolerance Intelligence policies.
I hope someone beats Professor Ewing to death with one of the many nanny law books he no doubt has in his office. Hopefully then there'll be a call to ban such books and we can be rid of such idiotic policies.
I'm so torn on this one. I hate anyone who would keep our kids from learning the fun of playing with dangerous things.
On the other hand I like the idea of disarming the homophobic, crypto-Mormon Boy Scouts.
If I were the principal I'd suspend the kid for 45 days too. Not for bringing the knife, but for belonging to a butthole organization like the Scouts.
I'd tell him that he should use the time off to think about the fact that there are lots of cooler organizations out there that are willing to give him weapons without demanding that he be a conformist asshole. Shit the Scouts don't even teach about hunting anymore.
Liberals are most likely to blame for most of the zero-tolerance horseshit in our gov't-run schools.
No, a conservative school administrator puckers just as tight at the thought of being sued. He hopes that the zero tolerance shield will hold since his judgment is almost certain to be doubted.
Remember, most liberals want to get rid of the evil, homophobic Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts anywhere. Troublemakers is all they are. Insisting that kids learn about responsibilities as well as rights, and training them on the "safe" use of weapons like knives and axes. Everyone knows safe use isn't possible. Why, teye even have a shooting merit badge! Teaching impressionable young boys how to use a weapon that they can mass murder with!
I'm confused. I thought Cub Scouts started at the age of 8...but this article mentions the Cub Scout was 6 years old.
Tiger Cubs start at six. The regular Cubs start at eight, but there was demand from parents and the kids too for a younger group. Pope Jimbo's strange rant aside, a lot of kids dig the scouts because of the things they get to learn that they would never learn elsewhere: stuff like knotwork, using knives, camping, etc.
By "educators", are we speaking of people who were "Education" majors in college? Education majors nationwide have the LOWEST SAT scores of ALL college majors (almost including their own)! They also have the lowest GRE and LSAT scores. Now, just why would you think they would make the most moronic decisions?!?
There's actually an online petition going around to get the kid back in school.
http://www.helpzachary.com/
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The good news is that he was not thrown into lockers and subsequently subjected to a "face down take down" for his defiant action by a murdering rapist "School Resource Officer." Oh wait, that was a 15 year old special needs kid in suburban Chicago who was wearing his shirt untucked.