Why Can't We All Just Get Along?
There's nothing racist about opposing the president
C'mon, everyone knows the hullabaloo surrounding President Barack Obama is bigotry in action. The administration's policy initiatives couldn't possibly provoke any authentic anger or protest.
Proving this dastardly motive, on the other hand, has been problematic. But there are ways around this dilemma. Unearth some crazy outliers. Create caricatures. Recognize "code" words. Reduce to absurdity. And presto!
"Surrounded by middle-aged white guys—a sepia snapshot of the days when such pols ran Washington like their own men's club—Joe Wilson yelled 'You lie!' at a president who didn't," declared Maureen Dowd in her Saturday New York Times column. "But, fair or not, what I heard was an unspoken word in the air: You lie, boy!"
Of course, it's fair. If inserting a racial epithet into a quote is wrong, I don't wanna know what's right. It is, moreover, common knowledge that middle-aged white men are bigots. If there's a problem with Dowd's premise, it's that Wilson likely lacks the intellect to string together more than two words per sentence. He is from South Carolina, after all.
Howard Kurtz of The Washington Post began to sniff out this racism when he heard "tea party" folks "shouting about 'the Constitution' and 'taking our country back.' Maybe Obama's health-care plan is an awful idea and his budget is way too big, but how exactly is any of this unconstitutional?"
For argument's sake, let's concede that "tea partiers" are collectively misinformed regarding constitutional law. Does logic not then dictate—nay, demand—that they are motivated by racism? Or perhaps demonstrators are devious enough to feign collective ignorance of the Constitution so they can be surreptitious (but not surreptitious enough to fool Kurtz!) racists.
It's true that things haven't been going smoothly for Change. And increasingly, we hear that anyone who opposes Obama too vociferously is hampered by the thought of a black man as the president of the United States. Conservatives, it seems, never have opposed a president before.
When right-wing radio talk show hosts and bloggers uncovered the past radicalism of green czar Van Jones, who was tasked with steering billions of dollars toward creating "green jobs," progressives immediately claimed racism and McCarthyism. The right, apparently, never has gone after an Anglo-Saxon administration member.
Politico reported that Rep. Eddie Bernice Johnson (D-Texas), chalked up all this anger toward Barack Obama to racial tensions. "As far as African-Americans are concerned," she claimed, "we think most of it is. And we think it's very unfortunate. We as African-American people of course are very sensitive to it."
"We"? Incredibly, Johnson speaks for tens of millions of African-Americans. ("We" Jews haven't been blessed with that kind of leadership since Moses.)
What's next? Why are all these misogynists targeting Nancy Pelosi? Why are these homophobes continuing to rail against Barney Frank?
Chuck Schumer? You guessed it: the Jews.
Who dictates what level of anger and dissent is allowable? Who decides what a clandestine racist sign looks like? Maybe someone like MSNBC's Carlos Watson, who wondered whether "socialism" is really about the nationalization of industry and hyper-regulation of the private market or whether it's just "becoming the new N-word."
None of this has anything to do with the left's paranoid belief that America is an inherently racist nation. It's just that if you oppose more government dependency and expansion, you might as well be a Confederate infantryman. No, it doesn't matter what you say, because we know what you really mean.
David Harsanyi is a columnist at The Denver Post and the author of Nanny State. Visit his Web site at www.DavidHarsanyi.com.
COPYRIGHT 2009 THE DENVER POST
DISTRIBUTED BY CREATORS.COM
Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Finally, someone comes along and makes some sense!
RT
http://www.web-privacy.de.tc
Not racist to oppose the president, and yet you show that picture? Tsk tsk.
Trying to explain that opposition is not racist? Man, that's REALLY racist.
If we change the name for the plan from ObamaCare to PelosiCare will everyone shut up? Or will it then be sexist? DemCare?
Of course the only reason Rep. Wilson's side of the aisle is a sea of lily white is because blacks are too dumb to see the great promise the GOP offers them, right?
Shut your neck, racist Tony.
Remember when Obama was going to be the "post-racial" president? It seems like, gee, only eight months ago or so.
Tony, arggghhhhhh I thought we already covered this?
Of course the only reason Rep. Wilson's side of the aisle is a sea of lily white is because blacks are too dumb to see the great promise the GOP offers them, right?
And what in this article is a defense of the GOP?
It's about how those who oppose Obama are labeled as racist without cause. Period. How blacks vote and run doesn't mean the other side is racist, it just means that they've chosen a different tact.
Of course, you really don't give a shit about that, do you?
Well now, it is better to admit he is racist, isn't it?
"It's just that if you oppose more government dependency and expansion, you might as well be a Confederate infantryman. No, it doesn't matter what you say, because we know what you really mean."
The ad hominem as left methodology.
David Harsanyi, busting the hinges off of closet racism 😉
Of course, what you really intend to convey is, "No one racist opposes the president." Which is, well, less true.
That may be the least insightful discussion of this issue yet posted here at H&R. Impressive.
CNN had a discussion of this issue last night.
All of the sane outsider-supporters defended the tea party against the racism charges using a simple technique...condemning the obviously racist messages (Obama as witchdoctor,etc...) and moving on.
The tea party organizer in another segment (can't recall his name) however, came across like an idiot because he wouldn't condemn the same sentiments ("I can't tell people how to feel"). As a result, his whole segment was spent defending against the racism charge rather than talking about the issue of government spending. The persistence of the racism charges results, in part, from the inept response to that charge.
What I'd like to know is whether all of this race-card playing is just a defensive tactic to fend off a sea of troubles (I can mix the same metaphors the Bard did), or whether they're actually so deluded in DC as to believe that most opponents of the president (and, naturally, all Republicans) are racists.
Either way, they are wrong.
joe was the canary in the everyone's a racist except me coalmine
The tea party organizer in another segment (can't recall his name) however, came across like an idiot because he wouldn't condemn the same sentiments ("I can't tell people how to feel").
It's idiocy to not think you can know and control the thoughts and motivations of every individual in a diverse crowd?
Not racist to oppose the president, and yet you show that picture? Tsk tsk.
Help me out here: depicting the President as a (white) movie character is racist, how, exactly?
The persistence of the racism charges results, in part, from the inept response to that charge.
No, it persists because those making the charge believe it is an effective smear on their opponents.
Perhaps the race card is played too much. By both sides, I might add. How quickly we forget how much of a racist Justice Sotomayor is supposed to be. I take it we're supposed to ignore actual racism as a fringe element of a generally well-mannered and rational group of people. Okay fine. Now carry on with calling anyone and everyone who supports Obama a socialist/statist/fascist.
obviously racist messages (Obama as witchdoctor,etc
Wow, that one's not obvious to me. I would have seen that one and thought the message referred to Obama's claim that he will expand medical coverage by 46 million people, while keeping costs down (budget neutral), and without cutting services. Sounds like magic to me.
But I could be wrong. Please explain.
RE: "the left's paranoid belief that America is an inherently racist nation":
From here
Help me out here: depicting the President as a (white) movie character is racist, how, exactly?
Because a whiteface minstrel show is just as racist as a blackface minstrel show, of course.
How quickly we forget how much of a racist Justice Sotomayor is supposed to be.
Fixed.
Tony still gets to be fucktard of the week. This is getting old.
NM, we talked about this yesterday and you're flirting dangerously with thought crime here. It's none of my business what other people think or are motivated by and it's certainly not my job to go police their opinions - especially in a crowd of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people. If people are racist in front of me - I'll mock them and tell them to shut the fuck up as anyone should, but when some reporter finds some fringe douchebag half a mile away down the Washington Mall, and then interviews some unrelated person trying to make the link... C'mon.
Beyond that, you may have noticed that everyone accusing people of racism have dick all for concrete examples to back up their assertions, most of the time they play weasely word-games like Dowd. "I can't but help but hearing the implied boy". No shit... People like her can't because everything they hear is tinted by bizarro 1960s reality. But what newspeople hear in the abyss of their own vacuous brain-holes isn't evidence of racism on the part of the people they're reporting on. If anything it's evidence of their OWN racism - like Tony's.
That's the great thing about ad hominems and why they will continute to be the #1 most popular logical fallacy: it's just so easy!
"I don't like this policy for reasons A, B, C."
"You're just a racist!!" (no need to respond to A, B, and C).
The true genius of this ad hom is the fact that you can just say they are secretly racist. That means not only can you ignore A B and C, you don't even have to prove the ad hom itself. Why didn't I think of this first?
"How quickly we forget what a racist Justice Sotomayor is supposed to be"
Yeah. Saying that the results of a test should be thrown out because too many many of the people who did well on it are of a particular race isn't racist. But calling Barack Obama a liar is. It's obvious.
Now carry on with calling anyone and everyone who supports Obama a socialist/statist/fascist.
Oh come on, Tony. Not everyone who supports Obama is a socialist, a statist, or a fascist. There are also well-meaning idiots.
It is not racist to oppose the President. But Joe Wilson is a racist, separate and apart from any opposition or support for any president. There, I said it.
Wow Tony... there you go again being retarded. See why I include you in these things?
1. Sotomayor very clearly is racist. Unless you suddenly forgot.
2. Fascism/Socialism/Communism are sociopolitical theories & philosophies you moron. If you are exhibiting the exact set of beliefs that are best described by one of those words than those words apply. Just because there's some well-earned stigma attached to them doesn't make it less a specific ideology to which people (like you) can subscribe. I could reduce all three of those to state collectivism, but most people have even less understanding of what that might mean. More to the point, picking a philosophy is a goddamn choice. The color of your skin or what chromosomes you were born with isn't. See the difference?
I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, and this time I won't. But it's so damn hard when someone has their head shoved as far up their own ass as Tony does, not to point it out.
Also - perhaps you should ask yourself why you're so insulted to have your political philosophy correctly identified as socialist? If you think the socialist ideas are fantastic, wouldn't you publicly claim your socialism?
"But Joe Wilson is a racist, separate and apart from any opposition or support for any president."
[Citation Needed]
You guys are all just racist against Tony.
See? Easy.
Freaking brilliant:
Awesome column. Harsanyi is one of the best out there.
I just don't get it. The president won the election by a comfortable margin. He started off with high approval ratings, but has made a number of contradictory statements, has done very little to undo the abuses of the previous administration, has increased the deficit to dangerous levels, has attempted to expand the scope of government beyond what most Americans are comfortable with, has associated with and appointed people way outside the mainstream, and seems overall very much a not-ready-for-prime-time player. Either the country just noticed that the man is black, or the other factors have something to do with the opposition.
Oh come on, Tony. Not everyone who supports Obama is a socialist, a statist, or a fascist. There are also well-meaning idiots.
And Communists, terrorist sympathizers, college professors (oops, redundant) . . .
Remember when Obama was going to be the "post-racial" president? It seems like, gee, only eight months ago or so.
More like ten years ago. That's an image Obama abandoned after he got creamed by a super-black guy who explicitly beat him as such.
Since then, instead of being "post-racial," he's taken advantage of the fact that white(r) people don't listen to him. They believe he's whoever they decide he is, no matter what he says, so he directs his pandering at constituencies he can't secure without being theatrically racial, while white(r) people run "post-racial"/"Racist!" interference for him.
I doubt he planned it that way, because he's stupid, but it's some impressive game.
I still think White Chicks was funny. Wrong, but funny. And the first 2/3 of Bamboozled was genius. And I'm going to have to recommend ego trip's Big Book of Racism even though I seem to be the only person ever to have read it.
Pro Libertate,
It took awhile for the racism to kick in. 😉
Obama is racist! Why else would he be black!? It's all so obvious now!
Barney Frank is German! He has it in for the jews!
"You guys are all just racist against Tony."
Yeah, it's true, I have a deep and abiding for arrogant assholes.
"has done very little to undo the abuses of the previous administration"
THAT'S A LIE! HE'S JUST CLEANING UP THE MESS MADE BY THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION. BY DOING MORE IT! IF YOU WEREN'T SUCH STUPID FREE-MARKET FUNDAMENTALISTS YOU COULD FIGURE THAT OUT! ASSHOLEZ!
When the sun hits those opponents to Obamacare it casts shadows. Racists!!
Fair or not, I read unwritten words in Dowd's column: "I'm a middle-aged c**t who will say anything to discredit those with whom I have political disagreements".
Is that fair?
I've been trying to compare the Tea Party protests to the the anti-war protests from a few years ago. They both have their fair share of extreme far left/right wing lunacy, and the fringe elements from both groups are nothing to be too proud of.
But what amazes me is how quickly the Tea Party protests are discounted because of their fringe, while the left seemed to able to avoid being smeared by their associated fringe.
And I'm not sure what the the lefty protesters were called instead of racists. Was there anything as remotely smearing as this being bandied about?
R C Dean | September 16, 2009, 12:28pm | #
...
The persistence of the racism charges results, in part, from the inept response to that charge.
No, it persists because those making the charge believe it is an effective smear on their opponents.
I am glad we are in complete agreement.
Sean W.,
All the race-baiting needs to be condemned as strongly as the actual racist messages. I found the contrast between the discussion where the tea party supporters derailed the race-baiting with condemnation of the racist messages and the one where the tea party supporter tried to defend the movement against the charges stark. One moved onto the issue the tea party is nominally organized around, the other did a tit-for-tat game of "you're a racist, you're a race-baiter" and never discussed the issue.
It is not thought crime to say: "Racist messages are not welcome at your rallies."
Freedom of association includes freedom to disassociate yourself from others.
"at OUR rallies"
"But Joe Wilson is a racist, separate and apart from any opposition or support for any president."
[Citation Needed]"
That's trick. Whatever citation I provide will be insufficient for you. Despite his love affair with Strom Thurmond and his feelings of pride for the confederate flag, it does not appear that Wilson was involved in the KKK.
More importantly (separate from Joe Wilson's profane personality), Joe Wilson's complete assholery has made it more difficult to convince sane people that Obama's health care reform is a bad idea.
obviously racist messages (Obama as witchdoctor,etc
I just realized that when Bush 41 referred to "voodoo economics," he was being obviously racist.
"Either the country just noticed that the man is black, or the other factors have something to do with the opposition."
The Republicans spent 8 years screaming at the top of their lungs that you CANNOT criticize the president, especially during a time of war! Then they turn around and treat the next President like a hobo with a soap box. I believe it is pure hypocrisy rather than racism. They were disingenuous back then, and they continue to be. The Ron Paul fringe is the only part of the party worth saving.
Pro Libertate,
Obama won an election against a President who had an approval rating in the 20% range. Yeah, I am saying he was running against Bush, because that was basically the case. And he still only garnered 53% of the popular vote. I was singularly unimpressed with that.
I would say that the more most of the pundit class tries to push this meme about racism and criticism of Obama the worse it is for Obama's Presidency. People quickly get fed up with that sort of stuff after a while and it doesn't rub off well on the person which it is ostensibly meant to protect.
The administration's policy initiatives have provoked authentic anger and protest.
Yea right. These people were a-ok with $11billion a month on war and Bushes other policies. In fact, Bush was the FOUNDING FORE-FATHER of BANK bailouts.
What i find is sad for the conservatives/libertarians that are not racist is that they are associated with ones that are. In fact, the majority of the protestors on TV are.
Keep in mind, White America voted in the Nigger. That was pretty big.
What u r seeing on TV is the White America that didn't. And it wouldn't be america without those people. And as much as I woulod hate to see it ... it wouldn't be america if one of those people didn't try to take Obama out. And I hope that doesn't happen. Many on TV said that they don't wish for his assassination because they are afraid of getting another black paid holiday out of it...and it would be bad for business.
Socialist, please!
I'm all for Obama. I hope he succeeds.
But many people in America...the classic America really hates the guy.
I know that many libertarians don't hate him bcause he's black...they hate his policies. That argument is marginalized by the fact that they are associated with likes of the Nigger haters.
Go-Obama. Do your best !!!
Lamar,
I think that's not entirely fair. The GOP rank and file weren't exactly thrilled with Bush's spending, especially the bailout. And Obama and Congress have really left the reservation on what they have done and want to do with government spending. As much as the Bush administration disturbed me, this administration, with a largely compliant Congress, is beginning to frighten me. Of course, today's government is built upon the abuses and expansion of power of its predecessors, particularly the most recent.
Seward,
He still had relatively good approval ratings at the outset, though I agree that the idea that he was ever hugely popular with the center (let alone the right) is a myth.
I've seen a few of the resident leftists try to conflate this situation with Bush's. Again, it's not the same. We have all the badness of Bush, with spending that is many times higher than anything that occurred then. USA Patriot renewed, rendition ongoing, taking over the auto industry, attempting to socialize medicine, driving the deficit through the roof, frequent lies, constant fear-mongering, etc.
Bush sucked. Now we've got Bush++.
Jeebus, Alice, you sure say "nigger" a lot. Are you trying to be an 'honorary black man?' :p
In fact, the majority of the protestors on TV are.
Many on TV said that they don't wish for his assassination because they are afraid of getting another black paid holiday out of it...and it would be bad for business.
I assume you have unassailable proof for both of these ridiculous statements, yes?
Pro Libertate,
He still had relatively good approval ratings at the outset...
Most Presidents do. It is the tactful thing to do; to be less than honest with the President in his first few months in office.
I think the 2008 election was the anti-Bush election, not the pro-Obama election.
"Yeah, it's true, I have a deep and abiding for arrogant assholes.:
You may be in the wrong place.
"I think that's not entirely fair. The GOP rank and file weren't exactly thrilled with Bush's spending, especially the bailout."
I agree, but I think they generally adhered to the Reaganite 'never speak ill of another Republican' mold. They weren't going to speak out against the President, and they were going to call it treason if the Democrats did.
What I find sad is how so many libertarin/conservative people who are not racist play down the racist claims. The claims are real. The People at the TEA PARTY did NOT vote for Obama.
It is obvious what this is. And, many of them are hiding behind the 'just because i'm against his policies doesn't make me a racist' argument.
Oh, and I'm still of the opinion that we will have three one term Presidents in a row.
Lamar,
Well, enough votes could not be gotten to bail out the autos. Now, I am not quite sure how that split by party line, I would imagine that a lot of Republicans opposed it.
"That's trick. Whatever citation I provide will be insufficient for you. Despite his love affair with Strom Thurmond and his feelings of pride for the confederate flag, it does not appear that Wilson was involved in the KKK. "
Really? You know me that well? That's fucking hysterical.
I want a fucking citation because I know dick about Wilson and, if he's actually showing something that is akin to racism (and the confederate flag ain't gonna cut it by itself, but the Strom Thurmond might), I'd like to know.
So fuck you for just assuming that you know my motives.
Lamar,
In my opinion, one big problem with U.S. politics and government is the unwillingness of voters, commentators, and politicians to call out their own when they've done something wrong. If the GOP had turned on Bush over the spending issue alone, they likely would've retained control over the government. Instead, they just said rah-rah. Like the Democrats are doing now.
Alice,
What about all the black people at the Tea Party rallies? Are they racists too?
And the Dems spent those same years booing and heckling Bush during his State of the Union addresses, calling him a "liar" over every little disagreement while playing up the patently phony accusations of a certain traitor and liar named Joe Wilson and those of his seditious wife Valerie Plame. So, when are Stark, Pelosi, Reid, Frank, and all those other Social Security reform-blocking hypocrites going to be rebuked for their scandalous lack of decorum and refusal to apologize?
Lamar, you and all leftists are known traitors and liars. That's why you always support the likes of Hussein and Zelaya against more honorable men (such as Bush and the Hondurans, respectively) who remove them. Now sit down and shut up, you commie hypocrite; I know your pants are on fire, but I still won't piss on you even to put them out.
Here's hoping those tea partiers throw out all the Democrats and half the Republicans (the Buchanan/Paul/Greenwald/Raimondo/Sullivan/Specter/Powell half, specifically).
Bitch, please.
"Coming next week: Cracker-ass Crackers."
Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..... Also, the media *DID* criticize Bush all the time, which I think is also why a lot of Republicans probably didn't feel the need to be so vocal. Newspeople were equally incompetent at asking anything substantive, likely owing to their inbreeding, but they at least tried. With Obama, the only way anyone who's pissed off feels like they get a voice at all is by going to protest rallies. Most of these people probably never considered going to one until last year anyway.
What about all the black people at the Tea Party rallies? Are they racists too?
The non-racist Leftoids call them Uncle Toms and house negros. Ask Harry Bellefante.
(the Buchanan/Paul/Greenwald/Raimondo/Sullivan/Specter/Powell half, specifically).
One of these things is not like the others.
What about all the black people at the Tea Party rallies? Are they racists too?
Oh yeah, that reminds me. I went to a Tea Party/protest/whatever on Sunday here in Oklahoma City. The guy who seemed to be running things (or at least, he was the one introducing the speakers), was black.
But I guess he's a racist too.
Course, it also occurs to me that "Bush doesn't care about black people" was some kind of meme a few years back too 😉
Some people are just interested in finding racism wherever they go. Most of the asshole pundits for example.
Pro Libertate,
I think the major problem is that most people have such bizarre ideas of what are and are not good policies. Of course I am a devotee of Bryan Caplan.
So like, don't vote: http://video.aol.com/video-detail/mercatus-center-scholar-bryan-caplan-on-abcs-2020/4039668280/?icid=VIDURVNWS04
Alice, you're right, libertarians shouldn't be playing down racist sentiments.
Let me start?. Alice Bowie, you racist ass. I condemn you!
Two racial epithets and one racist "joke" in the span of a few short minutes, pathetic.
In fact, the comfort with which you utter this ugliness, convinces me that not just you but your family are all racists. Shame and calumny be upon you.
The idea that disagreement with Obama is racially motivated is laughable in the face of the results of the 2008 presidential election.
A black president was elected by 43% of the white voters and 95% of black voters. The losing white candidate lost with 55% of the white vote and 4% of the black vote. The black candidate split the white vote almost equally so in order to call racism on the white voters who voted McCain we would have to assume that policy meant nothing. That's just stupid. The US is not a racist state and the recent election demonstrates that pretty conclusively.
Racism does not play well in white America. Whites were about 1.3 times more likely to vote white than black (55% to 43%). Blacks however were 24 times more likely to vote black than white (95% to 4%), i.e. blacks voted race 18 times more frequently than whites.
Using charges of racism to support the president's agenda will not win him any new white supporters or lose him any idealogical fellow travelers but it *is* likely to shore up wavering support among those black voters who see a clansmen under every bed. It's a relatively risk free tactic that plays to the progressives' continuing narrative of white racism. Business as usual, yes. Change we can believe in, not so much.
Okay fine. Now carry on with calling anyone and everyone who supports Obama a socialist/statist/fascist.
Nope, just the ones like you who actually understand what's going on and support it.
What you hate is that most people are not like you and can be educated. It's why you have to rely on things like false claims of racism to try to stop people from hearing the truth.
What I love is how easy it is to refute and how easy it is to see through by everyone. It's not flying anymore.
So please keep at it:)
Hear Hear Twisted Nerve.
The claims are real. The People at the TEA PARTY did NOT vote for Obama.
Jeepers you're confused. Stupid less please.
By your logic everyone who voted for Obama is a racist too because they didn't vote for McCain. And agist too cus McCain is old. And every voter is sexist because Hillary wasn't on the ballot.
And anyway lots of Tea Party people did vote for Obama. They just finally figured out what the hell Obama is.
There needs to be an IQ test to post here.
The man:
While, I do think it's fair to say that race was a much greater factor in the way that most blacks voted than whites, merely presenting election numbers doesn't support that, since you are de facto concluding that race was the motivating factor for everyone involved. If 55% of White voters preferred Obama, that could simply mean that they preferred what he represented to them in terms of policy.
Frankly, I think that's a load of horseshit, and I do think that race was a positive factor for Obama in both black & white communities, and I believe that the majority of Obama's campaign success can be explained by clever sloganeering and Will.I.Am... That said, merely citing election results doesn't support such a claim.
Because a whiteface minstrel show is just as racist as a blackface minstrel show, of course.
Batman was a minstrel show? I don't recall any musicals done by the Joker, although maybe he did kind of sing in a scene or two.
When someone dislikes Liberal policies, especially with a black man in office, that person is going to be called a racist.
When someone dislikes Conservative policies, especially with a white Jesus-freak in office, that person is going to be called a Godless terrorist.
This is the state of political discourse in this country, and as much as I'd like to blame Liberals or Conservatives or the mainstream media or the Freemasons or Bildeburgers or whoever it is that people are currently blaming, the real problem is that America is absolutely crawling with semi-retarded morons who nonetheless insist on voting.
The most racist thing the GOP has done this year? Appoint Michael Steele to be the head of the RNC, AFTER Obama was elected. "Oh, you want black guys? We've got one too!"
Cunts. Failures.
The black guy in the Tea party is the same as the 95 year old uncle of Morton Downey Jr who smoked 2 packs of Luckies per day.
The VAST majority of people at the Tea Party did NOT vote Obama.
That's what I'm saying. And, these same people have no problem with Bush spending $11billion per month. They are more concerned with a Liberal Black Guy in Office.
It just wouldn't be america without these people.
You moron. Are you just fucking with me or are you actually able to hold this thought in your head while simultaneously pretending there's not a racist among the teabaggers and trashing anyone who dares point out there might be? Jesus Christ lay off the Limbaugh.
Not very much difference when you're just throwing emotionally-laden labels out in order to discredit someone.
Here's the logic of progressives:
Basically, they think everyone should feel a moral obligation to provide welfare programs for the poor, and that the simple obvious solution is for it to be provided by a government program from tax dollars. Secondly, many of the protestors would not be the ones paying most of the taxes (they think), so they can't be opposed to it based on self-interest. Thirdly, a disproportionate number of the recipients are minorities. Hence, the only likely reason for poor or middle class white people to oppose state-run welfare programs must be racism. Finally, there's also the academic position in ethnic studies deparments that an action is racist if the EFFECT is racist even if the motivations of the individual are not... so the protestors are racist because they have the EFFECT of denying benefits that would disproportionately accrue to non-whites.
Now, obviously, we vcan see shades of "false consciousness" in that. And so forth.
But what's really missing in any serious consideration of the possibility that there might be other rational reasons to oppose government run welfare programs aside from sheer self-interest. A near total blindness to the unintended consequences of such programs, the possible alternative ways of delivering aid to the poor, and the effect on the overall economy that results from enlargement of the public sector.
Are most of those protestors intellectual enoguh to get all that? Probably not. But they do get the very basic common sense proposition that you cannot spend your way to prosperity, and you cannot borrow money indefinitely without having to pay it back at some point.
I for one, and most everyone I know who is republican DID have a problem with that though Alice!
Everyone was pissed. Fuck, even Limbaugh railed against it. Bush closed his presidency with a 22% approval rating for godsake. NO one thought he was good, or did good things, and everyone I know who have republican tendencies, excepting a few morons, were furious with the bailouts, etc.
They are concerned with the fact that every single person; man, woman or child in America is on the fucking hook for over $300,000 of government debt & unfunded liabilities and the president who just showed up seems intent on not only not fixing that problem, but actively making it worse.
The fact that you see racism in that highly justified anger says more about you than it does about anyone else.
Tony that whole post was a non sequitur. Try again.
And, these same people have no problem with Bush spending $11billion per month. They are more concerned with a Liberal Black Guy in Office.
How do you know that? How do you know these weren't the Republicans who stayed home in disgust or voted Obama because they were sick of the spending under Bush?
Okay, you're a delusional hypocrite if you can out of one side of your mouth call Justice Sotomayor a racist and then bitch about the race card being played out the other.
"Yea right. These people were a-ok with $11billion a month on war and Bushes other policies. In fact, Bush was the FOUNDING FORE-FATHER of BANK bailouts."
Yeah, plus, where was all the outrage from the GOP when Bill Clinton tried to implement a big healthcare plan? Oh, but now that a black president is doing it, suddenly Big Government is a bad thing. The racism is so obvious it's laughable that anyone protests.
Okay, you're a delusional hypocrite if you can out of one side of your mouth call Justice Sotomayor a racist and then bitch about the race card being played out the other.
Alternatively, your a delusional hypocrite if you bitched about Sotomayor being called racist, and then proceeded to play the race card against Obama critics.
Hypocrisy abounds.
Tony, do you honestly not understand what racism is?
-Sotomayor
Are you honestly so retarded that you can't understand that someone saying that - as a product of their racial background - they would make better decisions than someone who is of a different racial background, is racist?
By fucking definition?
Shorter Sotomayor: My race makes me more qualified than that guy's race.
WTF.
If you don't even know what the word racism means, then maybe it explains why you are so often racist without even recognizing it, Tony.
And the antiwar folks were associated with the likes of Jew haters. Therefore, unless you're pro-Iraq war, you're a Nazi. Stupid argument? Yes.
Sean,
It's so rich when people who deny racism exists at the levels it does finally decide to get up in arms about racism when they perceive it against white people.
If you actually think Justice Sotomayor is racist against white people you are a moron who listens to too much right-wing propaganda.
"Shorter Sotomayor: My race makes me more qualified than that guy's race."
Strictly speaking, I think she's saying that growing up on the ass end of society (which she attributes to her race in part) gives more of a sense of fairness than growing in privilege and wealth. The fact that she assumes elderly white justices must have been trust fund kids may be racist, but the sentiment itself is less racist than it appears.
Is this a joke? Clinton's healthcare proposal went down in flames. Oh, and you might also remember that at the time Clinton made his push for healthcare, he hadn't already saddled us with crushing debt and nationalized an entire industry and 2 car companies.
When one looks at the entire history of this country it is hard to escape the fact that no single entity has promoted racism more than the Democratic Party (slavery, KKK, Jim Crow).
I think I am secretly racist. . .
. . . and proud of it.
"It's so rich when people who deny racism exists at the levels it does"
That's not my point though Tony. My point was always, and remains that the tea party thing isn't motivated primarily by racism - and it isn't. It's motivated by an endless stream of what the fuckery by government. Now including Obama. Also including Bush.
"Strictly speaking, I think she's saying that growing up on the ass end of society (which she attributes to her race in part) gives more of a sense of fairness than growing in privilege and wealth."
Than she should have said that. This is not what she said. She made it a race issue, and not a life-experience or wealth issue.
Sean W. Malone:
The raw figures indicate that blacks, in the 2008 presidential election, voted race 18 times for frequently than whites. This is historical fact. With regard to the underlying factors that lead to this result there certainly can be legitimate differences of opinion and I agree that race could be a positive factor for some whites and some blacks. It is also possible to envision a situation where 95% of blacks and 55% of whites agreed, on the basis of policy, that Obama was the best man for the job.
But the last 30 years of election results indicate that the US electorate is almost evenly split between conservatives and liberals and giving even moderate weight to these historical political positions still leaves a substantial "race differential" with blacks voting race more frequently than whites. I could be more quantitative, but I suspect that won't be persuasive.
The claim I made was simply that accusing people who disagree with the president of racism is good politics. I think that the fact that it is a tactic used so frequently by very skilled politicians supports *that* claim.
I find it hilarious that Alice can sit here and call all the black people who attended the Tea Parties "the same as the 95 year old uncle of Morton Downey Jr who smoked 2 packs of Luckies per day." - and somehow WE'RE the racists.
The hypocrisy is simply overwhelming.
Good times.
Also - in any event, Polylogism is fucking retarded. The correctness of an idea does not depend on who is saying the idea or what their background is. That's straight up Marxism yo.
I'd much rather have Larry Elder, the black, conservative talk show host, as president than Obama, his color is no issue at all.
It isn't bad enough that these fucking jerkoffs have to play amateur psychiatrist. But they're "practicing" on people they've never met and wouldn't even consider talking to.
Blacks vote Democratic in huge numbers regardless of race. If slightly more voted for Obama than usual, is it all that shocking? Were all the whites who voted for the previous 43 presidents voting on race too?
Seriously Sean, why do you do this? You and I both know that Tony has his head so far up his ass, he has to fart to see the computer screen, so why even pretend he's worth debating?
"Really? You know me that well? That's fucking hysterical. I want a fucking citation because I know dick about Wilson and, if he's actually showing something that is akin to racism (and the confederate flag ain't gonna cut it by itself, but the Strom Thurmond might), I'd like to know."
If you needed a citation, then you don't really know much about Joe Wilson. Nevertheless, I cited to his relationship to Strom Thurmond and his support for the Confederate flag. He also publicly went off on Strom Thurmond's black daughter. And while his membership in the Sons of Confederate Veterans doesn't mean he is racist, that organization has been criticized as "thinly veiled" white supremacists. Let's also not forget that Wilson comes from a time when racism was acceptable, and he clearly wasn't on the leading edge of civil rights reform.
A relationship to Strom Thurmond is, in and of itself, irrelevant. What kind of support for Old Strom did he give. Quotes? I mean, he could well have a relationship with a racist without actually being one. Especially since, IIRC, Strom has said that he changed his mind.
And I know a lot of members of the Sons of Confederate Veterans...some of which are indeed racist, and some of them aren't. (I can't open that particular link at the moment, but I do intend to check it out and see what they're saying)
As for Wilson going off on Thurmond's black daughter, that would be a big step in that direction. However, you just saying it doesn't make it a citation. Got a link or something other than your word?
then...
Isn't that what he just said? Funny. Can I just throw this out there though? Let's just theorize that Wilson is a racist. Does that have any bearing on whether or not Obama's speech was chock full of lies? Does that have any bearing on whether or not it should be ok for our elected representatives to criticize the president?
Say he wasn't a racist. Would it matter then??
The thing that pisses me off personally about constantly having to deal with charges of racism flying about is that there are legitimate arguments being made. The President did spend an entire speech talking out of both sides of his mouth and dare I say it, yes, did lie. Politicians lie all the time - and now you can't even say that they do in the halls of congress? And if you say that this one does you're a racist? Wtf.
I agree that Wilson isn't racist, but the same can't be said of the tea-baggers. Why weren't they protesting when AIG was given $85 billion? Why didn't they ask for the birth certificate for Bush? Why was it only when Obama took office did they start protesting on the street, when really it was Paulson, under Bush, who instigated the bank bailout?
Isn't that what he just said? Funny.
Yeah, I just chalked it up to Tomcat's Law.
Because Glenn Beck didn't tell them to.
OK, how about when Sen. Chambliss called Pres. Obama "uppity"?
How about when Limbaugh played "Barack the magic negro"?
How about when a California R party official sends e-mails of "Obama food stamps" with pictures of fried chicken & watermelon?
How about when a Tennessee R party official sends an e-mail with pictures of all the presidents, and in the 44th spot is nothing put a pair of eyes against a black background?
How the crazy lady who said a "big black man" carved a "B" on her forehead?
How about the signs that said, "N***** please, it's called the WHITE house!"?
I could go on, but I think you get the point.
"The President did spend an entire speech talking out of both sides of his mouth and dare I say it, yes, did lie"
Racist!
Tomcat1066 - Sean W. Malone has correctly pointed out that I misread your post. I had it 180 degrees backward.
You've said a couple of times that X or Y "in and of itself" doesn't mean he's a racist, and I agree. But Joe Wilson has been a huge Strom supporter, an attack dog against his black daughter, affiliated with the 'is it or isn't it' Sons of the Confederacy. And call me cynical, but I don't think Strom Thurmond changed his mind about anything except what it took to get elected. Perhaps that's why Joe Wilson loves Strom so much, he was successful in getting past his racism to be successful in office.
Sean W. Malone - at 12:40pm I stated that whether Joe Wilson is racist (and I think he is but hides it as he should; no macaca moments yet) has nothing to do with his contempt for a Democratic president.
"Because a whiteface minstrel show is just as racist as a blackface minstrel show, of course."
But we have the right minstrel in charge now, right?
The stupid thing is if Wilson had a (D) after his name and were black Sean would have no problem calling him a racist based on the flimsiest of evidence.
Ever suck a black dick, Tony? Why or why not?
I agree that Wilson isn't racist, but the same can't be said of the tea-baggers.
Yep, every single one of them, a racist. Including the black ones.
I could go on, but I think you get the point.
Clearly, in a nation of over 300 million people, a handful of anecdotes are all the evidence anyone needs.
Yup. Why? Why not?
Lamar - you could very well be right... I don't know Joe Wilson or his internal beliefs on race or anything else for that matter. I hadn't even heard of him until the other day, as I'm sure many people didn't. But I keep trying to figure out why it even matters.
And sort of - towards stuff NM has been talking about on this and other threads - what I really don't get is the racism as ad hominem.
I mean, we get into pretty heated debates on Hit & Run all the time, and we all call each other names. I called Tony a moron earlier (a particularly weak epithet for how I usually think about that guy) - but I still explain WHY he's wrong.
If someone's a racist - ok... Fine. But did Obama lie? Yeah. Sure did. So I guess I just don't get why we can't talk about that. Even if Joe Wilson was racist - even if EVERYONE is racist... Isn't it still important to actually debate what people are talking about??
"The stupid thing is if Wilson had a (D) after his name and were black Sean would have no problem calling him a racist based on the flimsiest of evidence."
Right, because that's clearly what I've done.
What you've done is bend over backward to defend Wilson from the race card despite the evidence presented while on the same thread claiming it's patently obvious that Sonia Sotomayor is a racist based on a single comment.
@ Alice Bowie
I've read enough of your posts to determine that you are really quite creepy. How sad for you.
Sean W. Malone, I agree with that. I was saying the same thing. Joe Wilson's racism (whether it exists or not, and you know my position on it) is separate and apart from his lack of etiquette.
Also, it's clear that I love the Republicans. That's why I voted for Bush spent the last several years railing against everything from the Patriot Act to excessive spending by Republican assholes to the laughable calls for corporatism in the guise of "free market" economics. Fail Tony... Fail.
"What you've done is bend over backward to defend Wilson from the race card"
Find me one fucking instance where I've done this. Jesus you're a fool.
In 1775, the Englishman Samuel Johnson made the famous pronouncement, "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."
Today, scoundrels can't rely on patriotism. It is too out of favor to provide much of a refuge.
Were Mr. Johnson alive today, he would most likely say "A charge of racism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."
And the comment of Sotomayors was NOT an isolated comment as anyone who was alive a few months ago could remember. It also was backed up by the Ricci v. DeStefano case.
It's also a clear exposition of a philosophical position in her own words, whereas "You Lie" isn't. At all.
And on top of that, I repeatedly said that I don't know what Wilson thinks about anything cause I've never heard of the dude until the other day - and I specifically agreed with Lamar that he "very well could be" racist. So... Yeah, Tony. STFU.
"e guy who seemed to be running things (or at least, he was the one introducing the speakers), was black.
But I guess he's a racist too."
All blacks are. It's in their DNA.
"I'd much rather have Larry Elder, the black, conservative talk show host, as president than Obama, his color is no issue at all."
The darker the Larry, the sweeter the juice.
Sean W.,
And the comment of Sotomayors was NOT an isolated comment as anyone who was alive a few months ago could remember. It also was backed up by the Ricci v. DeStefano case.
This is pretty thin gruel, I must say. The case for the Justice as racist is just so much confirmation bias. Similar in terms of validity to what is happening when people use the "you didn't vote for Obama, therefore you were motivated by racism" charges.
I heard President Carter's remarks on NPR, today. President Carter can go fuck himself. That is all.
a sea of lily white,
Like a WTO protest.
Why can't both sides see the grain of truth in what the other is saying?
I mean, it's seems completely plausible that the worst of the opposition to Obama is motivated by race. By the worst, I mean the ugliest, most vile stuff (I would disagree with President Carter that this represents an "overwhelming portion" of the opposition). Even if it can't be shown with enough confidence, it certainly should be acknowledged that much of the rhetoric coming from protesters is over the top stuff, which shouldn't be swept under the carpet.
It's also true that the left is willfully ignoring or dismissing sound arguments offered by those with skeptical concerns in favor of focusing on sideshow acts.
The persistence of the racism charges results, in part, from the inept response to that charge.
On NPR during the BBC segment, the British reporter noted that racism has existed in America's history, therefore...
With reporting like that, I weep for journalism.
Jay J,
Beyond that, those making sound arguments associate themselves with the more vile stuff at the peril of their message.
A cynic would point out that the more the opposition is afraid of the sound arguments, the more they would WANT to deflect attention to it towards the sideshow. When you have your sound argument firmly ensconced with or surrounded by the side show, you make the oppositions job just that much easier.
I mean, it's seems completely plausible that the worst of the opposition to Obama is motivated by race. By the worst, I mean the ugliest, most vile stuff
By the worst I would assume you mean depictions of Obama with the word "nigger" below them, and visages of Obama being lynched by hood-wearing Klansmen? Yeah, that's motivated by race. But when a guy is carrying a sign which reads "I'm not your ATM", I'm really trying to see the irrefutable proof that it's motivated by race. *looking menacingly at President Carter*
Well, see, Paul, it shocks them, of course, because there's absolutely no racism in Britain.
because there's absolutely no racism in Britain.
Or Europe as a whole, really...
To clarify, why doesn't someone in a leadership position on the right do some Sista Soujah stuff on the people who are hateful toward Obama? That would clear up any confusion, and then this person could ask why the Dems are ignoring sound arguments offered by those worried about this brand of health care reform.
You know, like, "those still confused about whether Obama is a citizen are out to lunch, he's not a Muslim (not that there's anything prima facie wrong with that), and he seems like a nice family man. Now, our concerns are A, B, and C, and no good response has come from proponents of this brand of health care reform."
If no major republicans are willing to risk a backlash from the crazies by slamming their cherished delusions, then this is at least partially why this cloud of accused racism hangs over us.
"This is pretty thin gruel, I must say. The case for the Justice as racist is just so much confirmation bias."
Meh. This may be a broad stroke, but anyone who clearly expresses polylogism as a legitimate epistemological foundation for her ideas, that generates my immediate suspicion. And sure, after that point, I'm obviously more aware of subsequent statements & actions. But I think it's important to understand the philosophical underpinnings of racism - and one of the biggest of all is the idea that people of different races or cultural backgrounds experience entirely different "truths" than other people. From there, it's only a short step to say that "my" truths are better or somehow more valid than "yours". From there, it's even easier to start trying to force mine on you or make decisions based on those ideas.
When someone says that by nature of their race, that they should be lauded for making different decisions than others, that's a massive red flag.
Paul,
You offer obvious examples of racism. Then you offer a relatively benign political message. I've seen quite a bit that rises way above the benign example you offer, but falls short of the obviously racist one you offer.
Neu,
I agree that the Dems are motivated this way, and that is cynical. It's also cynical of the right to be afraid of their crazies (it seems to me that even this Blog is going out of its way lately to avoid acknowledging the seemingly permanent presence of the crazies at these events lately).
Good post Jay J. But I think the problem is there is no real leadership on the right, on a national level. You do the Sistah Souljah thing when you're trying to appeal to moderates. Congressmen in districts they likely got gerrymandered for themselves have every motivation to appeal to the prevailing sentiment of those who inhabit those districts and are reliable voters.
Sean,
I think Sotomayor was arguing that one's experiences are the important factor in informing wisdom--race being one of those experiences.
Tony,
Agreed on your post in response to me.
As for the one in response to Sean, well, do you agree that if that's what Sotomayor was going for, that she said it rather inelegantly?
Oops. I'm Jay J, not Tony... When you get Tony on the brain...
Yeah and she said as much. That said, if that's the best Obama's enemies could come up with I'd say his vetting is darned impressive.
If that's what she was going for, then it was spoken incredibly poorly. But I still reject the idea that sound reasoning is somehow a product of culture. The annoying thing is that that is the actually anti-racist position to take.
If some white guy came up to me and said he was intrinsically smarter or more wise than a comparably qualified dude from Columbia, it's just as stupid and incorrect. Everyone has rich experiences, especially those who take the time to learn from them.
"Yeah and she said as much."
Agreed. The literal meaning of what she originally said was actually rather inelegant, to say the least. But she virtually disowned the statement in her hearings. So I don't see an issue here, though I have had some on the left defend what she originally said, *in it's original form.* But oh well.
Sean,
I think the left and the right have abstract disagreements over whether sound reasoning is all that's required to be a good jurist. That would have been a more interesting discussion to see play out, IMHO.
But IF it's true that more than sound reasoning is needed, then the charitable interpretation of what Sotomayor said sound OK; it's the axiomatic disagreement that's interesting.
You've said a couple of times that X or Y "in and of itself" doesn't mean he's a racist, and I agree. But Joe Wilson has been a huge Strom supporter, an attack dog against his black daughter, affiliated with the 'is it or isn't it' Sons of the Confederacy. And call me cynical, but I don't think Strom Thurmond changed his mind about anything except what it took to get elected. Perhaps that's why Joe Wilson loves Strom so much, he was successful in getting past his racism to be successful in office.You've said a couple of times that X or Y "in and of itself" doesn't mean he's a racist, and I agree. But Joe Wilson has been a huge Strom supporter, an attack dog against his black daughter, affiliated with the 'is it or isn't it' Sons of the Confederacy. And call me cynical, but I don't think Strom Thurmond changed his mind about anything except what it took to get elected. Perhaps that's why Joe Wilson loves Strom so much, he was successful in getting past his racism to be successful in office.
Again, I'd like to see some links to this (especially the "attack dog" stuff towards Strom's daughter). I'm not saying he's not a racist, because like Sean, I don't know what's in his heart or mind when it comes to the color of someone's skin.
However, you said:
"But Joe Wilson is a racist, separate and apart from any opposition or support for any president."
And that seemed pretty definitive. I wanted proof.
After all, he just just be a stupid asshole. After all, there are plenty of Republicans that qualify for that title 🙂
To me, the real story of "the comment" is not the comment itself (who hasn't said 1,000 inartful things in one's life?) but rather the way the right managed to find a way to sneak white racial resentment into yet another political battle. They are deliberately stoking this bullshit, which is why I'm not confident they will see the wisdom of Souljahing any time soon.
Jay J:
The reason I used examples of "obvious" racism was in direct response to: "I mean, it's seems completely plausible that the worst of the opposition to Obama is motivated by race."
To me, my examples would come up to "the worst of the opposition". If you meant to say "the meanest of the opposition that doesn't mention race as a motivating factor outright, but I strongly believe to be motivated by race" then that would have left me with really nothing to respond to except that it's really difficult to prove a racial motivation when someone just kind of doesn't like Obama and says some decidedly nasty, but non-racial things about him.
This is what Carter has done. He took an example of a congressman who shouted "You lie!" and apparently heard "You nigger!". Carter's not a young man anymore, may have hearing troubles... hell, he may even be suffering from dementia. I don't know.
When asked why "You lie!" was a racist comment, it was noted that Joe Wilson comes from a district with some racial tensions, and Wilson was one of a handful of congressmen who voted to continue flying the Confederate flag over the statehouse some years ago.
Hell, I'll even go as far as saying that Joe Wilson may have some simmering anti-black feelings tucked under his belt somewhere. But "You lie!" just doesn't smack as 'racism' to me.
Tony, Agreed.
So two things come out of this to me:
1) I have had an impossible time getting any self-identified Democrat to discuss my concerns over this thing with me in a rational, relatively calm way, without getting sidetracked by complaints about the sideshow, and by glib rejections of my relatively hard-earned insights with their armchair talking points.
2) I am continually disappointed in the right's willingness to fan the flames of this media pissing match by failing to simply Sista Souljah their own ranks. They bear some of the responsibility for this atmosphere for that. And I am surprised by this blog's repeated insistence that those opposing the President aren't racist (I mean, duh!) while sweeping under the carpet the fact that there really are crazies who *seem* to have a sizble presence at these events.
I don't think Joe Wilson's actions are racist, but I think the anti-intellectual mouth-breathing republicans toting racist signs are racist.
mouth-breathing republicans toting racist signs are racist.
Thank you. My point exactly.
Paul,
I for one am more careful than to say Joe Wilson's act *specifically* were racist. I suppose though, that when a DC cops horse shits on an Obama figure, and then laugh and take pictures of it, and when people at these events are quoted on TV saying that Obama is lying because he's actually a Muslim, then I don't get bent out of shape when racist charges are thrown their way.
Don't get me wrong, I'm satisfied just calling them stupid and or crazy, but I don't want to split hairs.
So for the record, I thought Carter's comments were not helpful. I just think it would be helpful if the right were a little more vocal about disowning the crazies. Until they do, it looks like both sides have something to gain by the crazy sideshow.
The VAST majority of people at the Tea Party did NOT vote Obama.
Even if true what does this have to do with racism?
That's what I'm saying. And, these same people have no problem with Bush spending $11billion per month.
wrong
And get new talking points, this one was lame when it was first trotted out. It's especially ineffective on a libertarian site.
Talk about inelegant, I meant that after a DC cop's horse shit on an Obama figure, that those who brought it, laughed and took photos of it... Just one tiny example..
My biggest question is to what extent are GOP congresspeople still playing the southern strategy game, i.e., stoking fear of minority takeover, out of cynical politics (it's worked for them so far!) or because their ranks are increasingly made up of the people who actually believe in this stuff. I think Wilson is probably the latter. I'm not sure what is worse, the cynical politics of the Tom Delay generation or the rank ignorance of the Joe Wilson generation.
Tony, you are aware that the Democratic party has by far the worse history on racial issues, right? Also, you realize that we're not GOP members here too, yah?
Sean,
Umm, but the Dixiecrats became republicans.
Tony,
I would say cynicism is intrinsically worse than being true believer, but I base that on nothing but my intuition.
As for which is more dangerous, I'm agnostic, ambivalent.
Jay J - move your concept of Democrat racism out or being exclusively located in the American South, and you will find that that is only a tiny little piece of what I'm talking about.
out *of*
Sean,
Why so touchy? I never accused anyone here of being a Republican.
And this
is bullshit I'm tired of debunking to people who claim not to have a dog in the Dem/GOP fight. You know what happened to all those racist Democrats (Dixiecrats) from the midcentury south after the New Deal and Truman's civil rights work? They became Republicans!
Sean,
I would say that race-baiting or what is sometimes called "reverse-racism" does not rise to the level of the southern strategy employed by the GOP. But if we don't agree on that already, I suppose it's futile to argue about.
Sean,
I mean, I can only assume you're talking about the stuff I mentioned, because the right hasn't been there during the civil rights struggle the way the left has. The fact that the left loses it's way on affirmative action, race-baiting, etc, doesn't outdo the history of civil rights, in my view.
If you're referring to something other than the Dixiecrats or the thigns I cite, I would interested in what it is.
Don't look at the shiny object people. Keep an eye on what your govt is doing.
"The left's paranoid belief..." Have you not been reading Drudge, Fox Nation, etc? There can be reasoned disagreements. But when there is only ad hominem attack using vitriol and invective based on race and background yes, I would call that racist.
"Umm, but the Dixiecrats became republicans."
Sheer ignorance. The Dixiecrats were Southern Dems who opposed integration. The South became Republican after integration was forced through (by Republicans) and after the Civil Rights bill, in reaction to the New Left taking over the Democrat party.
Funny how Democrats are never responsible for anything, isn't it?
"... after the New Deal and Truman's civil rights work? They became Republicans!"
That's hilarious: they were so racist, they switched to the party that pushed the Civil Rights bill through and enforced desegregation!
Do you even think before posting?
"Have you not been reading Drudge, Fox Nation, etc? There can be reasoned disagreements."
Do you really want to start a war of judging each other by our fringe groups? Considering 1/3rd of Democrats believe the "9/11 truth" theories, that's a war you cannot win.
The Dixiecrats became republican because the Democratic Party was moving too far away from them on race. Yes, the Dixiecrats were Southern Dems, but they left the party, so if what you're trying to accomplish is getting someone to admit that people with a D by their name were pushing racist policies, OK. If you're trying to say that has any relevance to the larger debate about Democratic Party vs. the larger Republican Party, and their contribution to the Civil Rights movement, then you're barking up the wrong tree.
So, integration was forced through by republicans? I thought it was a Supreme Court decision, implemented reluctantly, but decisively, by the moderate Eisenhower. As far as which party provided more legislative will and work to change things in the country, my understanding is very different than yours.
White House rejects racism claim
Its not racist to oppose the President, but race has been inserted by some of those who have been most critical. When Glenn Beck says that Obama "hates White People" and Bill O'Reilly says Obama is a radical who wants to uproot the "White Male" power base, they are using race and bringing it to the discussion.
About the Democrats being the champions of all things right and good in regards to race, I'd bet some coin that there are at least as many actual racists who are Democrats as are Republicans. The generalizations the left makes about the right are ridiculous to begin with (fifty million people are all what?), but on this issue, they're being willfully obtuse. I've met more racists in places like Boston and Chicago, where most of the crazy, racist white people are Democrats, than I've ever encountered in the South. Where, incidentally, there are still millions of Democrats, too.
By the way, my Poli Sci degree notwithstanding, Conservatives ARE NOT Libertarian. They hate Liberty.
"Notwithstanding?"
Again, I also am not strictly talking about the Dixiecrats. What I'm actually referring to is who supports the most actions which immediately and directly harm the poor and racial minorities. That title is a tough fight in some ways, but I think it's pretty clear that hands-down over the 20th century, it goes to the Democratic party.
Who supports unions up and down at the expense of the poor in jobs & high prices?
Who supports minimum wages that push movable jobs overseas, reduce production & employment otherwise and have contributed directly to the teen population - especially the black teen population I might add - suffering the highest level of unemployment since records have been kept?
Who keeps pimping welfare programs which incentivize and some might say, exacerbate secondary conditions of poverty like teenage pregnancy?
Who placates the anti-economic fears of the uninformed American worker by "protecting" them from the low priced goods coming out of truly impoverished places like India, China, Taiwan?
Who has closer ties to legitimate institutional racism through unions?
Let's be honest with ourselves... the 35% tariff on Chinese tires hurts who?
Hell, Walter Williams wrote a whole book about this kind of shit called The State Against the Blacks.
"The Dixiecrats became republican because the Democratic Party was moving too far away from them on race"
That would be relevant if the Democratic Party were entirely made up of Dixiecrats. But it wasn't. Yet the Democrats were still the party of Jim Crow, segregation, the KKK, and many other racist policies.
"If you're trying to say that has any relevance to the larger debate about Democratic Party vs. the larger Republican Party, and their contribution to the Civil Rights movement, then you're barking up the wrong tree."
Not at all. When Congress voted on the Civil Rights Act, Republicans favored the bill 138 to 34 and Democrats supported it 152-96.
The whole conversation is idiotic and tiresome. The whole COUNTRY was racist for many years. Many people in the country are still racist. But this childish, juvenile nonsense line of "Republicans are the racist party!" is just something that left-wingers throw out when they can't win an argument. And it's handily defeated by simple observation: the Republican Party has at least as good a record on Civil Rights as the Democrat Party; the Republican Party didn't actively destroy the black family with nonsense like welfare and paying cities after they riot; and there are of course numerous non-white Republicans, both famous and otherwise.
"As far as which party provided more legislative will and work to change things in the country"
Nice strawman. The issue wasn't about which party tries to "change things more". And of course that will be the Democrats because, given their close ties to socialist/communist groups, they're the ones who think the country is fundamentally broken and needs to be remade in their image. Which is why every time they get into power they are soundly rejected by the people.
"Conservatives ARE NOT Libertarian. They hate Liberty."
Isn't it past your bedtime?
Democrats can talk all they want about which groups they love... Mostly by playing class warfare i might add... And they're convincing apparently because many of those groups vote for them. But if you actually want to look at who's done more real harm to those very groups - it's most often been the Dems.
Oh, I forgot one - Who supports keeping people from leaving bad school districts?
Sean,
I think the examples you cite are controversial as an example of racism. You may be convinced, but I'm not. I try to be modest when talking about race and racism in general, and this is no exception.
Your thesis must be that not only do the programs you cite hurt black people, but that *the reason* democrats support them is because they hurt black people, or that there is some specific animosity toward black people motivating the policies.
"*the reason* democrats support them is because they hurt black people, or that there is some specific animosity toward black people motivating the policies."
Yet you are under no such obligation to prove your stance on the Republican party?
ProLib - I can also say that the most racist people I EVER encounter are hard-core Union guys. Almost without-fail, Democrat supporters, and it's like I'm living in the 30s.
Jay J, you have to keep them down so they think they still need you.
AC,
I'm not that confident that you know what my stance is, first of all,
but when we're talking about opposition to civil rights, segregation, stuff like that, I think we can assume that race is central, but maybe that sounds like an ambitious assumption to you.
Joe M,
I understand that you may think this is the motivation, and it's certainly a plausible political motivation, but the fact that it's plausible, and that you believe it, doesn't count as evidence. Particularly since I've spent much of my life as a Democrat as know a very many people who sincerely support (wrongly, in my view) many of the policies cited.
I'm not talking about average Democrats, I'm talking about the elected members of congress. Cynical political calculation is the order of the day.
"I think the examples you cite are controversial as an example of racism."
I'm actually talking less about intent than i am about outcomes. If you want to know which party has done more to hurt the blacks & the poor, it's the Democrats. Whether or not they do this because they're just that stupid (my preferred answer) or because - like the Unions - they really hate the idea of black people especially getting their precious assembly-line jobs........ I can't say, and is too broad a stroke for me anyway. I am just saying that if you look at real outcomes of real policy, and put intentions aside, what I listed isn't that controversial.
"Particularly since I've spent much of my life as a Democrat as know a very many people who sincerely support (wrongly, in my view) many of the policies cited."
So your personal experience is a great rebuttal, but the personal experience of others is poor evidence.
Funny how you judge yourself on such a sliding scale.
I wouldn't make so pernicious a claim as "Democrats purposefully keep black people down", but I would state that lefties are willfully ignorant of the real-world impact of the policies they support, which actively harm lower-income families (a large part of which are non-white). That they then compound their error by labeling anyone who opposes their harmful policies as 'racist' only makes them look more foolish.
People motivated by racism are quite honest and open about their motivation, from the Congressional Black Congress to David Duke. The fact that we CBC operates TODAY and David Duke is a name from yesteryear speaks strongly as to which is the greater problem.
That is, "the CBC". I should use the preview button.
Joe M,
OK, well I can't refute that. But I will say that cynical calculation can be buttressed by a sophisticated system of psychological rationalizations, willful ignorance, etc. It doesn't have to be *that* sinister and thorough to count as cynical. To me the more modest assumption is to assume, in general, mundane ignorant/misinformed cynicism, rather than evil, sophisticated-informed cynicism.
"Conservatives ARE NOT Libertarian. They hate Liberty."
Isn't it past your bedtime?
I'm sorry but Conservatives oppose Liberty to its very core. They reject reproductive, sexual, and marriage rights, They don't believe in the Big government crap espoused by Liberals, but they don't agree with smaller government that Libertarians support either, instead, they believe in a middle ground of "Conservative Values." Bush, Ex-Aussie PM John Howard and Canadian PM Stephen Harper are good examples. Harper identified this in a speech when he criticized Libertarians for rejecting what he said was the basis of Conservatism: "the 3 F's" as he called them-Freedom, Faith and Family.
AC,
We haven't talked about the personal experience of others, so you have no idea what you're talking about.
You're a loose cannon, you're assuming too much about me, and you're not careful. At least that's the way you've been so far. I suggest you go back and read the whole thread, and try not to import too much of what you feel is going on, and actually look at the literal meaning of what I have said, and view in context.
As for now, I'm done talking to you. BTW, I never said my experience is a knock-down argument, but to me, it is enough to make the proposal that racism is the most parsimonious way to interpret the policies he cited as unwarranted. Not proven wrong mind you, but unwarranted. If he's only met people who are truly evil and racist in their advancement of these policies, then we can't have any common point of reference. It should be noted, however, that all the evidence he marshalled was simply the citation of the policies, and the believed impact they have.
So, anyway, I'm out. Y'all have fun.
"They reject reproductive, sexual, and marriage rights"
Please clarify how any of this is the case. Sounds like lunatic, paranoid ravings to me.
"Bush, Ex-Aussie PM John Howard and Canadian PM Stephen Harper are good examples."
You really can't understand how in a world of 6 billion people, two people who label themselves the same thing might have vastly different opinions on subjects?
"You're a loose cannon"
AtheistConservative's a good cop!
Funny thing is you have to make a pretty racist assumption to account for the fact that blacks overwhelmingly support Dems if Dems are in fact so bad for blacks. (They're too dumb to realize it!)
Let's just ignore the entire Southern Strategy of the GOP and the fact that the only demographic it gets a national majority of is old white men.
I want to be a loose cannon!
"Funny thing is you have to make a pretty racist assumption to account for the fact that blacks overwhelmingly support Dems if Dems are in fact so bad for blacks"
Not at all, because we also know that kids and coasters are overwhelmingly left-wing because they're too dumb to know any better. It's not about race, it's about the pernicious influence of a left-wing media and left-wing educational system and the corruptive influence of special interests and tit-for-tat governance.
"the only demographic it gets a national majority of is old white men."
But you're not racist. Noooo.
All of you here are mean and rasist and full of hate. I know that Tony here must be black becaus all of you are so mean to him. Why else would all of you here hate our President, just because he is black. Mr. Obama is a real nice man and he wants to help the poor who are dyin because they have no health care and has proved alredy that 47 milion more are gonna die because they cant get healthcare. All of you should be ashamed because your rasist and you hate the President just like that awful Glen Beck on Fox. I am from California and I know Henry Waxman and he is a real nice man to and Glen Beck calld him a mean name about his nose. You all should be ashamed that you are rasist and full of hate.
"All of you here are mean and rasist and full of hate."
I love performance art!
Marcy, are you 12?
Tony,
I've explained this to you before, but because you're so short-bus special and all...
I don't think black people are too dumb to see the harm that the policies have caused. Almost everyone is! No one has the interest or time to actually look at the long-term effect of policy that politicians are currently touting. Instead they see stuff like labeled like "The Happy Fun Help Poor People Act of 2003", or the new "Clean Up the Streets" provision in the next "Support for Minority Rights" bill.
That's about all there is to it... It's just a combination of two factors really:
1. Ignorance/disinterest in the legislative process & economics
2. Good PR
You on the other hand... You're just too dumb.
And btw, two of the people who are my biggest heroes in economics and who have collectively brought me more information on these topics than anyone else I've ever read are both black guys, which would kind of mean inherently that "black people" are most definitely not "too stupid". But leave it up to you to reduce it to race yet again.
Obama is not a bad guy.
You can argue that the ROAD to HELL is paved with good intentions but, Dick Cheney and Co were EVIL people ...with not a single good intention in their soul.
See - Marcy is a good case for my point there. Even if she's 12 😛
Obama says he cares about the poor, ergo, he cares about the poor and his policies will help the poor.
Intentions matter, results don't.
Obama is trying to do good.
And, it's a matter of opinion, not an analytical or calculating fact that he is doing good/bad.
I feel bad for all of u guys that don't like Obama (aka the nigga). Perhaps it would have been better if McCain (aka the Mummy) and Sara Palin (aka the Dummy) had won.
Just think:
- There would be no healthcare debate
- A 100 year war
- Conservatives/Libertarians would not have to protest.
I bet u guys must really really miss the good-ole days.
Don't worry, they'll be back in just a couple of years.
Alice - you have no fucking idea what was in Bush or Cheney's soul, or Obama's. Have you also never heard the phrase "Devil in a Sunday hat"? Let's not forget that some of the most evil people in the history of the world not only had the best of intentions, but were charismatic as all hell to boot. How else do you think people come into that kind of authoritarian power? It most certainly isn't because they couldn't make any friends or because they were transparently evil.
"Again, I'd like to see some links to this (especially the "attack dog" stuff towards Strom's daughter). I'm not saying he's not a racist, because like Sean, I don't know what's in his heart or mind when it comes to the color of someone's skin."
I don't know the man personally. But the attacks on Thurmond's daughter are easily googled. And, heck, I'm open to the idea that he's simply racially insensitive instead of full-on, hate blacks racist.
Alice... my patience wears thin with you. You are by far the most racist person who posts here. I've never in my fucking life seen someone refer to black people as "niggas" more often, with less humor.
"Obama is trying to do good."
I really wish I could give you a microphone and a world stage so you could broadcast this childish, solipsistic nonsense to the world: Obama=good! Cheney/Bush=bad!
Almost everyone is 'trying to do good'. It's their view of what is good that shapes their actions. Which is why you judge people by results, not their intentions. Judging Obama by his results, he is the worst president in history (it's a close tie with his best buddy Jimmy Carter).
Meanwhile, you are far too childish to have the right to vote. You have a crush on the man. It's more than a little pathetic, really, but I expect you'll eventually grow out of it. Or you'll get a job with the Times.
"aka the nigga"
This is, of course, why the lefties always accuse everyone else of racism: it gives them a chance to vent their racist spleen. You can see this all over the web and on shows like Bill Maher's: any excuse to setup a racist joke, and then deflect the blame for their racism off onto those evil Conservatives who never said anything.
And FFS man, libertarians generally hated McCain even MORE than we hate Obama. And all the rest of that shit would be identical.
All of you here are mean and rasist and full of hate. I know that Tony here must be black becaus all of you are so mean to him
I am cool with black dudes. I hate Tony because he is an ass.
Judging Obama by his results, he is the worst president in history
It's amazing that after 4,400 young american troops died, over 80,000 came back limb-less, dis-figured, and/or mentally injured, countless of colateral damage in Iraq...that Bush is viewed as a better president than a man that is trying in incorporate Healthcare in America.
I mostly just hate Tony because he's a vociferous tool and an ignorant douchebag all at the same time.
And also because he never. cites. anything.
I'm not racist Sean, I'm using my crude language...as usual.
BTW, I didn't make up The Nigger/Wigger vs the Mummy/Dummy...it was someone else. I'm just using it.
People are still dying in Iraq Alice... And Afghanistan... And Pakistan... And Somalia...... 1000 more troops on the way!
And on the scale of military deaths in the US, those numbers are miniscule. 416,800 or so in WWII alone.
I think i read it in Maxim Mag.
Alice - NO one here calls Obama a "nigger" except you.
Think about that for a minute or two and get back to me.
People are still dying in Iraq Alice... And Afghanistan... And Pakistan... And Somalia...... 1000 more troops on the way!
Yea, and this president is doing NOTHING about it. That's what I call a Lie. Not what he said the other day.
Judging Obama by his results, he is the worst president in history
I am still hoping Carter wins. I was too young to vote for him.
I agree that Libertarians hated McCain even more than Obama. That and the fact that most independents hated McCain even more than Obama is why Obama got elected. Most of them that voted are sorry now, but I am still not sure the alternative would have turned out better.
BTW, shut up Marcy, you ignorant slut.
Now children ... I think Alice just isn't aware that there are always multiple solutions to the "Who's a dangerous shithead" equation. Technically speaking of course it has a countably infinite number of real solutions. McCain and Obama are just two.
Most of them that voted are sorry now, but I am still not sure the alternative would have turned out better.
[Sheepishly raises hand]
Obama has not only done "nothing" about the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan, he's actively reneged on promises to pull them out on even the GW Bush time-table, and instead is expanding operations/refocusing efforts in Pakistan/Afghanistan.
I am still hoping Carter wins. I was too young to vote for him.
I know you are being sarcastic. I was just a little too young to vote for Carter also. But I was old enough that I remember those years well. I remember thinking it was really cool that this peanut farmer dude actually got elected President. My next memory is of hearing that we were running out of oil and that we all needed to turn our heat down to 65 or whatever and only drive our Gremlins and Pacers 55 mph. Then I remember the Iran hostage fiasco and by that time I stopped thinking that Carter was so cool, and it seemed everyone was a little pissed over the way Carter handled the hostage situation and the artificial oil shortage crisis.
Hey man, I voted for the 'Stache. My alternatives to that were either write-in or stay home.
I know you are being sarcastic. I was just a little too young to vote for Carter also. But I was old enough that I remember those years well.
And if Carter ends up being worse then the Obama years won't be as bad. See?
Then I remember the Iran hostage fiasco and by that time I stopped thinking that Carter was so cool, and it seemed everyone was a little pissed over the way Carter handled the hostage situation and the artificial oil shortage crisis.
At least Obama is not surrendering to bin Laden, but they haven't found him yet.
Hyperion; just wait for the price controls. Then we'll have some fun.
After Jimmuh Carter's blatherings today, it never ceases to amaze me how many people can read fucking minds and hearts like they were some kind of goddamned racism experts with telepathy...
Like Tony, only with a national audience.
talking about honest disagreements with the president is not racist. true.
calling him names, using historically racially charged language, symbolism, euphemisms, etc, is.
making up policy that he doesn't actually have: that just makes you look stupid.
the free use of false equivalency, straw man, and weird ad hominem fallacies by the vast majority of the writers for so-called "reason" magazine is extraordinary, if sad.
finally, snark, while a fun rhetorical device, is no substitution for sound argumentation. FAIL.
all i see here anymore is you guys writing minimal-substance op-ed pieces to each other so you all can nod and high five each other. you can't be bothered with making a good case, cause, yah know... i mean it's OBvious to SMARt people. 'm i right?
libertarians, my ass. objectivists, my ass. this is a reason-free zone full of partisans with a wink, nudge, nudge. you guys don't 'love liberty'. you're tools of the system with a superiority complex.
After Jimmuh Carter's blatherings today, it never ceases to amaze me how many people can read fucking minds and hearts like they were some kind of goddamned racism experts with telepathy...
Please don't speak of the next Ambassador to Iran in that manner!
it never ceases to amaze me how many people can read fucking minds and hearts like they were some kind of goddamned racism experts with telepathy...
Just as amazing to me are the people who CAN'T read overtly racists actions or hear overtly racist words for what they are. I mean, sure, some of this stuff falls in the ambiguous middle where you need telepathy to interpret it, but come on...
Sean W. Malone | September 16, 2009, 7:06pm | #
Alice - NO one here calls Obama a "nigger" except you.
Think about that for a minute or two and get back to me.
I'm sorry Sean. I won't use the N-word no more. I was just using it to add colour to the "The racist against obama are insignificant" argument.
There's clearly some racism here Neu... Not too hard to spot.
Next up, cap and trade. This is when Jimmy gets to play hero and save the day for Obama again, by declaring that everyone against cap and trade are racist... because they not only hate the black president, but the polar bears and baby penguins too.
Hey... I hate polar bears... those fuckers are just grizzlies in snow-camo.
Next up, cap and trade. This is when Jimmy gets to play hero and save the day for Obama again, by declaring that everyone against cap and trade are racist... because they not only hate the black president, but the polar bears and baby penguins too.
So, hating black gold is fine?
You said "black" Suki... Racist.
Sean Sean Sean.... That Link!!!
That was definitely filmed by Liberals.
I even think that the people interviewed were Liberals possing as Rush Limbaugh wanna bees.
I can't beleive that these people were serious.
That was the best link yet.
recoveredobj must be another one of those self-trained telepaths who can read people's minds and hearts...
You said "black" Suki... Racist.
So that's why my SAT scores didn't matter for some schools! Oh the shame.
Okay, time to drag someone behind beloved boyfriend's pickup (so I don't get any blood on mine).
Beloved, we need to pick up a case of Bud on the way home and . . .
Sean put out an amazing link.
Please see it when u have a chance:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/zefrank/tea-party-interviews-13
Alice, is your first language English? I am more offended by your grammar than your use of the N-word.
I won't use the N-word no more.
Now repeat after me Alice, I won't use the N-word anymore...
If English is not your first language, I apologize.
Hyperion,
Is "I shan't use the f-word evermore" too advanced?
Suki,
Too advanced for whom? For Alice, I suspect it may be. I'm still waiting to find out if English is her first language or not. If not, I shall have to apologize to her along with the polar bears, whom I have insulted in similar fashion for their deplorable usage of English grammar.
Spanish was officially my first langage
Beloved, we need a bottle of Cuervo to go with the Bud . . .
The Cuervo Gold... the fine Colombian... make tonight a wonderful thing.
I'll say it agaiyan...
Alice, damnit, I hate it when I have to apologize. Where are you from? I am not racist for asking you that(or for any other reason for that matter), my girlfriend is Brazilian and I know what it is like to have your grammar corrected often. My Portugues grammar is still pretty poor quite often after nearly a year at trying very hard to learn. But in my defense, all the inflections of the verbs in Portugues is quite difficult to master. My sincere Apologies to you.
Dominican Rep..born there...came here @ 11
"Beloved, make that some cheap rum . . ."
Suki,
Who the hell are you talkig to? Are you drunk dude? If you are, stop it. I am trying to be sober tonight and to like being that way for once!
Hyperion,
Scroll up and follow along please most sober total downer sir?
Need a ruling from SugarFree if your usage if "dude" is heterosexist or not.
Hyperion,
Um, scroll up to my invoking of the pickup truck belonging to beloved boyfriend.
What about "dudette"?
"vast majority of the writers for so-called "reason" magazine is extraordinary, if sad."
DRINK
What about "dudette"?
I like that one 🙂
Nipplemancer,
You are missing the Smurf boob thread over heir.
Libertarian Guy must be one of those fine paragons of our education system who flunked american history and basic reasoning.
thou dost protest a bit much, as though i was talking to you. clearly, i was talking about people who have actually used this language and symbolism. i don't see where i said otherwise. but, please, please, let's have a conversation in which you claim that i say things i don't... because, you know, you can TELL i meant to imply it, right? who reads minds?
not to pretend that you're attempting to engage me in conversation or honest debate (you insist on only referring to me in third person, a fine rhetorical device of dismissal), but i never deigned to read anyones' minds. rather, i pointed out that using historically racist epithets to refer to the president, while also not actually talking about actual policies of the president, well, THAT is a form of racism. no need to read minds. using racially charged language in an argument in order to avoid talking about the topic of the argument is really a common form of racism in this country. we'll call it the 'ad hominem racism' strategy of expressing anger about complaints that may or may not have basis in reality by not actually talking about anything true or real, but instead disparaging the (perceived) racial background of your target.
i mean, why bother talking about real ideas and facts, as opposed to made up bullshit, in an honest manner? watermelons, clever puns, and equating a president with gangster rapper... why, that makes the point so much better. and how lovely is it to use language in a newspeak manner to accuse others of fascism/socialism/communism/'reverse' racism/totalitarianism, etc.
irony, too. how deep.
"the zoo has an african and the whitehouse has a lyin' african"--teabagger
but, please, don't let me interrupt you NOT making a case for ANYthing. talk into the vacuum, let it eat up your fleeting moment. good luck with it. i have to go community organize to take your gobs of money from you while infringing on your freedom of speech to share your brilliant insight with the world.
aah, witt. clearly a substitution of substance.
Jesus, you sound like a Democrat.
How would YOU like to be called a "racist" for the "crime" of being against affirmative action? How's that for a for-instance, former objectivist - if that's what your title means.
Those who truly ARE racist, that's a good argument; however, you're conflating using mere words as PROOF of racist intent. Too deep a subject, perhaps, but that's a good start.
I'm just sick and fucking tired of hand-wringing types who think that hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of Americans are bona-fide, Klan-member racists because *gasp!* they don't get all excited when Obama opens his yap. And you sound like one of those who do knee-jerk along those lines, even if you say you only target a specific portion of the population.
"i have to go community organize to take your gobs of money from you while infringing on your freedom of speech to share your brilliant insight with the world."
NOW you do sound like a Democrat. Either that, or just plain unhinged.
Assuming I have "gobs of money" is, in and of itself, a bigoted POV. I'm actually quite poor. But do you think ACORN would help me out?
No, and I wouldn't take their fucking dirty money, either.
And why is that relevant?
What about when Barack Obama sponsored the equivalent of Holocaust denial .
http://www.israpundit.com/2008/?p=16984
Prove that those rights exist.
If Dems were good for blacks, then almost all predominantly black neighborhoods which are represented by Democrats ought to be the wealthiest places in the country.
Anyone who conspired with a newspaper and a corrupt judge to unseal confidential divorce records does not have good intentions.
We were running out of oil in the '70's?
From what exactly is gasoline refined these days?
"Barack the Magic Negro" was NOT Limbaugh's invention.
Now, Limbaugh is a dickweed, but give credit where it's due.
Now, Limbaugh is a dickweed, but give credit where it's due.
It was the invention of an LA Times writer that Matt probably worked with. The song came from the Rush show, not the phrase.
Who was this writer?
Man it'd be really ironic if people actually thought we were truly running out of crude oil during the 70's instead of remembering that we suffered an oil crisis due as the completely predictable consequences of price controls...
ME,
Wow, I did not know the intertubes was rocket science to you, but I am but a lowly Chemist.
Obama the 'Magic Negro' by David Ehrenstein. And the story is from 2007, Rip Van Winkle.
Are you really Tony?
The song is from whoever does the parodies on Limbaugh's show. Name escapes me, but he's pretty funny, I think they're available on YouTube.
For the record, I *only* listen to Limbaugh when he's not behind the mic - and only when Walter E. Williams is subbing. But he's probably an Uncle Tom, so he doesn't count, eh, Tony?
For the record, I *only* listen to Limbaugh when he's not behind the mic - and only when Walter E. Williams is subbing. But he's probably an Uncle Tom, so he doesn't count, eh, Tony?
Same way me and beloved boyfriend only look at erotica "for the articles?" Where did that silly phrase come from anyway?
Libertarian Guy:
Michael Shanklin is the composer/parodist you're looking for. For the record, that's without listening to a minute of Limbaugh in at least 7 years and no google. My brain is a fuckin' vault 😛
PS: If I'm wrong, which I don't think I am, feel free to let me know - but I have no intention of googling it myself... those parodies (like all politically satirical music) suck ass. Really, no one does parody music well except Weird Al.
>And Communists, terrorist sympathizers, college professors (oops, redundant) . . .
Don't we libertarians get called that all the time? By both the right and the left actually.
Now look, I know Marcy is probably a child, but I got to bring something up? Didn't libertarians go as hard against Bush as everyone? Did everyone forget that? In fact, how are we "rasist", which I assume means judging someone based on their rase, for hating Obama, when we've hated just about every president we can remember? Now I may not mean hate literally, but come on!!!
Is Lamar actually Tony? Or are there 2 complete assholes on this forum?
My Portugues grammar is still pretty poor quite often after nearly a year at trying very hard to learn. But in my defense, all the inflections of the verbs in Portugues is are quite difficult to master.
So what's the excuse for the errors in English?
/teasing (really - I am the king of the typo)
;^)
"Is Lamar actually Tony? Or are there 2 complete assholes on this forum?"
There are only 2?
Conservatives ARE NOT Libertarian.
True.
They hate Liberty.
Patently false. Or at least so much as it's true, it's equally true of liberals.
I think one salient difference between liberals and conservatives is that conservatives are much easier to explain liberty to, and much easier to convert. Liberals tend to emote more than think and can't see the results of their actions and wishes are the opposite of the intent.
I can likely succeed in convincing a conservative that Christian prayer in school is a bad idea because that justifies say, Islamic prayer. I can explain that the spending on the wars was problematic because it's now being used to justify more spending.
I can explain basically that when you feel strongly about something and want to use the agency of government to implement policy or spending for that because you have a narrow majority, that agency will be used against you when you have a narrow minority.
A liberal is much much much less likely to be able to grasp that. Sometimes you can tho.
@AthiestConservative.. love the nickname:) Maybe one day you will graduate to AthiestLibertarian or Athiest AnarchoCapitalist:)
Libertarian Guy,
I assumed NOTHING about you having money. It's a FUCKING JOKE. I, if anything, was assuming you do NOT have gobs of money.
Also, you need to look up the word "bigoted". it does not mean what you think it does.
you, brother, have poor reading comprehension or no sense of humor. my god, do you know sarcasm other than your own? my 9 year-old daughter has a better comprehension of sarcasm and its various uses. sheesh.
funny, you make an overt, specific assumption about me that you intend to be bad, based merely on my disagreeing with you, right before you accuse me of being a bigot, you suppose, because i mean to insult you by saying you have lots of money. something i didn't actually do.
further, i started reading and was quite devoted to ayn rand and the philosophy of objectivism going back more than two decades. you guys, this magazine and commenters such as yourself, are not following libertarian or objectivist foundational philosophy of logic, reason and liberty. not at all.
try again, friend.
but, read that again. a variation of sarcasm, low level. I do NOT want you to try again. we're done. i'm not interested in continuing the pretend conversation so you can flame me for honestly and rationally disagreeing with you, not bothering to even attempt to answer my objections.
good night, and good luck.
ok, last time, i didn't see both posts: look up "racist" too. it is not necessarily racist to be against affirmative action. assuming lots of things, like, do you even know what it is and how it works? and what kind of language do you use when arguing against it? do you argue on the merits of what it actually is? or do you argue about black people stealing jobs from whites? however, it is NOT racist to call you racist for being against affirmative action. even if in error, that is not the meaning of the word. 'dumb' or 'presumptuous' works. 'hyperbole' might apply well too.
your bizarre threshold for proof of racism having nothing to do with actions but only 'intent' is beyond silly and not in keeping with any basic understanding of how the word has been used historically and currently. if that is the threshold, then it's equally the threshold that we don't know if someone is, say, a sociopath, based on their behavior... or a liar... etc.
actions are exactly what racism is. i care not what is in your heart. and i did not call any particular person a racist, i called the actions racist... that's a FACT. again, i don't know what is going through these teabaggers' heads, but i know what words mean and i know my history. those signs are racist. those chain emails. etc, etc.
rand talked about this. quite elegantly. evidently, you guys haven't read it? or understood or remembered it? 'gang rule' describes these people perfectly. during the meteoric rise of an intrusive and fundamentally statist oligarchy under GWB, these same people were either silent or pounced on the slighted questioning of Dear Leader. the shoe fits. quite well. it's a good read, you may have heard of the book, "The Virtue of Selfishness."
seeing you're other post, i'm sorry, but we are really done. you are either stupid or not arguing in good faith. i can make this conclusion based on what you say and your abuse of the meanings of words, i don't need or care about your intentions to the contrary or otherwise. and, again, you still have yet to actually answer the case i've made. you changed the subject and made it personal. classic emotional diversion of last resort. NOW, good night, good luck, try not to trip over your shoelaces.
What the fuck was THAT shit? Incoherent drabble and I don't get along.
For the record, as if you give a fuck... I didn't vote for, or support, EITHER George Bush. So go fuck yourself, former objectivist, and keep sounding like the liberal shitbag you've turned into.
Intent is everything, by the way. Otherwise, it's just mind-reading and conjecture.
Dumbshit.
http://www.sangambayard-c-m.com
My only point is that if you take the Bible straight, as I'm sure many of Reasons readers do, you will see a lot of the Old Testament stuff as absolutely insane. Even some cursory knowledge of Hebrew and doing some mathematics and logic will tell you that you really won't get the full deal by just doing regular skill english reading for those books. In other words, there's more to the books of the Bible than most will ever grasp. I'm not concerned that Mr. Crumb will go to hell or anything crazy like that! It's just that he, like many types of religionists, seems to take it literally, take it straight...the Bible's books were not written by straight laced divinity students in 3 piece suits who white wash religious beliefs as if God made them with clothes on...the Bible's books were written by people with very different mindsets.
is good