Four Things I Learned About Racism From My Co-Panelists on Air America Last Night

1) The Tea Parties are experienced by many black Americans as a "racial assault." This was posited by a white "anti-racism writer," though the black Tea Party organizer on the panel didn't seem to agree.

2) The "Don't Tread on Me" flag, historically, is inseparable from white racial resentment against blacks.

3) My pointing out that the racial-motivation interpretation of the protest was not manifested in the overwhelming majority of signage I saw and conversations I had was directly analogous to white Americans believing that race relations were just fine 50 years ago.

4) Glenn Beck has described Obama's health care plan as intentional "reparations" for slavery.

This last bit, at the least, is true…and retarded.

My last word was that if the Tea Party movement is significantly animated by racism or appeals to white racial resentment, we will certainly find out about it, and it will lose whatever popularity it has now, because racism in this country is genuinely unpopular. And by the same token, if the Great Klan Hunt fails to turn up more than just a fringe scattering of kooks, it may be time for some on the Air America left to begin considering that limited government sentiment is not automatically a form of sublimated racism.

My two cents is that if Glenn Beck emerges as the leader of this thing (and he could make an arguable claim right now), then there will be a hard cap on growth of its popularity, and a flourishing cottage industry of Beck-monitoring that will turn up daily outrages to feed the evil/stupid/insane/racist narrative. This will be great for Glenn Beck; for the rest of the new protest kids, maybe not so much.

For more on ahistorical anti-president hyperbole, read Michael C. Moynihan's blog post from last night; also, see my previous column on "The Race War That Isn't."

Comments

[Choey]

I really can't see that there is an overall leader of this movement. There are a few people who seem to be leading certain local areas but not the whole shebang. I think that is one of its strengths. Undoubtedly there will be those who run to the front of the parade and claim to be leading it but everyone knows they are not.

[John]

"And by the same token, if the Great Klan Hunt fails to turn up more than just a fringe scattering of kooks, it may be time for some on the Air America left to begin considering that limited government sentiment is not automatically a form of sublimated racism."

Don't hold your breath Matt. If they did that, they would have less reason to feel smug and superior. Further, thinking that people might be motivated by good rather than evil intentions would require liberals to engage the populace who disagree with them as equals. And no one wants to do that.

[sage]

Glenn Beck needs to sit down and shut his neck. It's almost like he's going to intentionally railroad this thing with his retardedness.

[Hobo Chang Ba]

There weren't very many blacks at the anti-Iraq war protests I attended. The antiwar movement must therefore be fundamentally racist.

[SugarFree]

Goddammit, Matt! Those people have a script to stick to! You're just Air America's Joe Wilson!

[Gilbert Martin]

Accusations of racism is the left's fallback position on anything and everything when they don't actually have any substantive argument to make.

And it is very rare that they DO actually have any substantive argument to make.

[johnG]

Just replace "racist" with "counter-revolutionary" and it becomes more clear what they're up to.

[mitch]

Thanks for going into that pit of snakes, Matt.

[Neu Mejican]

Further, thinking that people might be motivated by good rather than evil intentions would require liberals to engage the populace who disagree with them as equals. And no one wants to do that.

Yeah, thinking that people who disagree with you might be motivated by good rather than evil IS difficulty, huh?

It seems that if the Tea Party were composed mostly of racists, then we might have seen more conflict with the large(r) group that was also on the national mall during the 9/12 rally...that being the black family reunion crowd.

Racists are always in the minority these days.
They are, however, going to be on the fringes of many political protests. Strategically, it seems that acknowledging that there is a vocal minority of the tea party folks that are motivated by racism and denouncing them would do more for the movement than the "you're just playing the race card" tactic being used now. When Glenn Beck is your most well known spokesman, and Glenn Beck makes clearly racist accusations, you need to tackle the racism head on or you look disingenuous.

Samuel R. Delany has a good essay about the concept of racism that points out that there are many situations where the passive stance supports the racism/sexism that has been habitualized in our cultural practices and that it take active opposition to overcome that habitualization. Those who are claiming that all the tea party folks are racist are, actually, falling into this trap. Whenever you get into a "us versus them" mind set, you are using the same habits that support racism.

That points not very clear, but maybe after more coffee I can articulate it better.

[J Mann]

Air America still exists? Are they broadcasting anywhere? I sort of assumed that if Ed Shultz and Randi Rhodes were still on the air, someone would be pulling their choicer quotes to counter the whole "quote Glenn Beck" phenomenon.

[John]

"There weren't very many blacks at the anti-Iraq war protests I attended. The antiwar movement must therefore be fundamentally racist."

Or how about the Nutroots convention or the old Howard Dean campaign?

[CaptainSmartass]

Glenn Beck is the main reason I'm staying away from the tea parties. Especially after he started his 9/12 movement, with his second bullet being a required belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Thor, or some other mythological being (I forget now which one it was, they're all the same to me). Sorry, but I just don't want to associate with anyone who believes in Tooth Fairies and Santa Claus.

[John]

"When Glenn Beck is your most well known spokesman, and Glenn Beck makes clearly racist accusations, you need to tackle the racism head on or you look disingenuous."

and those would be?

[Andrew S.]

I had suspected it would happen, but it really is sad to see that seemingly, for the next four years at least, any criticism of the Presidency is going to be dismissed by accusing the critic of racism rather than, I dunno, talking about the substance of the criticism.

[John]

"Sorry, but I just don't want to associate with anyone who believes in Tooth Fairies and Santa Claus."

Then enjoy life in the wilderness.

[Neu Mejican]

"There weren't very many blacks at the anti-Iraq war protests I attended. The antiwar movement must therefore be fundamentally racist."

This is an unfair comparison.
The racism accusations are made based on the attacks on Obama, not the attacks on the policies he supports.

You would need to flip your analogy to say "I saw a black man at an anti-war rally that had a Bushitler sign, so the anti-war movement must be racist." Or something.

[Neu Mejican]

John,

and those would be?

Read the post you are commenting on.

[How Big is Your End of Life Fo]

What nue just said at 11:02am

I watch Beck once in a while. He's both crazy and a closeted gay man (and yes I know he has a wife and kids).

[anonymous]

Regarding the Gadsden flag being racist: watch ACORN members selling GAdsdens at the DC Tea Party rally. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOPsla-MyLk Were they hoping to get a lot of them in the hands of the "teabaggers" so they could then show photos of all the "racist" protesters? That's pretty sleazy even if they are misguided on the meaning of the flag.

[John]

"4) Glenn Beck has described Obama's health care plan as intentional "reparations" for slavery."

That is stupid but not racist. A lot of people black and white believe in reperations. Further, racism means looking at another race as being inferior. Why is implying that Obama wants reperations saying that blacks are inferior? At worst it is accusing Obama of putting his race over the needs of the country. But, that is something liberals do all the time to Jewish supporters of Israel and with respect to religion conservative Catholics. That is a dumb statement. But, it is not strictly speaking racist.

"This is an unfair comparison.
The racism accusations are made based on the attacks on Obama, not the attacks on the policies he supports."

You are falling into the racist trap you laid out above. Why are attacks on Obama racist? Lots of attacks on every President are personal as opposed to being on their policies. If anything, the attacks on Obama show that people are treating him like any other President rather than, as you apparently wish them to do, partronize him because he is black.

[P Brooks]

The "Don't Tread on Me" flag, historically, is inseparable from white racial resentment against blacks.

I hate to parade my ignorance in front of the whole class, but- WTF?

[JW]

Air America, Matt?

Isn't there some other kind of self-abuse that you can engage in that's at least gratifying?

[Warren]

John | September 15, 2009, 11:01am | #
"Sorry, but I just don't want to associate with anyone who believes in Tooth Fairies and Santa Claus."

Then enjoy life in the wilderness educated society.

FIFY

[NAL]

I feel like such an idiot for thinking, and actually expressing to others, that Obama's presidency would be a positive for racial relations. The liberals' trigger-happy race-card playing took care of that.

*Please note, I didn't vote for him, but when he won, I was trying to find positive consolation. His presidency is turning out to be a disaster on all fronts, however.

[John]

Yes Warren. No one who is educated beleives in God. The whole 5000 plus year history of religous thought and philisophy was just tooth fairy stuff. Honestly, you are not that stupid are you?

[Neu Mejican]

John,

You are falling into the racist trap you laid out above. Why are attacks on Obama racist?

I was describing the accusations, not making them.

As for Beck as racist, you are being silly. Beck is explicitly questioning Obama's motives based on the race of his father. That counts.

[John]

"As for Beck as racist, you are being silly. Beck is explicitly questioning Obama's motives based on the race of his father. That counts."

Bullshit. If that is true, then saying that a white person might not have the best interests of blacks at heart or a Mexican might put the needs of Mexicans first is "racism". That is just crap. Racism means looking at one race as being inferior to others. Saying, hey that guy is looking out for his own is not strictly speaking racist.

[Mike M.]

I had suspected it would happen, but it really is sad to see that seemingly, for the next four years at least, any criticism of the Presidency is going to be dismissed by accusing the critic of racism rather than, I dunno, talking about the substance of the criticism.

I hope the left keeps going right down this road. Keep attacking Americans as racists, you socialists; we're going to find out pretty soon how well that works out for you.

[John]

"I was describing the accusations, not making them. "

When you assume that all the personl attacks on Obama are racist, you are assuming that we cannto attack a black President. That I think is very much patronizing to Obama. He is a President and like any other, he will stir resentments and personal attacks. The fact that he is black doesn't make him immune to that or wrong to attack him.

[Neu Mejican]

If anything, the attacks on Obama show that people are treating him like any other President

Details matter here.
I believe that the vast majority of the attacks on Obama are not racist in nature, so to an extent you are making a valid point. There are some, however, that are clearly racist. There is no reason that pointing that out leads to ...

rather than, as you apparently wish them to do, partronize him because he is black.

[Citizen Nothing]

".they would be talking about how the cave life there for six billion would be unsustainable and bad for the bats.

Say what you will about Beck - he occasionally gets off some funny lines.

The racism accusations are made based on the attacks on Obama, not the attacks on the policies he supports.

How, in the case of the POTUS, can you possibly separate the two? Are people suggesting that if Walter Williams were in the White House, the same teabaggers would still be protesting, that Glenn Beck would be digging up and attacking his crazy allies?

[Seward]

Neu Mejican,

Very few of the statements made about Obama are racist. A large sub-set of them are just plain stupid or in bad taste.

And of course some sub-set of the comments made about any modern President are racist in nature. Nothing new there.

[Neu Mejican]

When you assume that all the personl attacks on Obama are racist, you are assuming that we cannto attack a black President.

Yes John...and I was "describing" these types of accusations and saying that the analogy above was more effective if you focused on this aspect of the accusations.

[Citizen Nothing]

Really, if a substantial portion of the attacks on Obama are racist, one must posit that the same attacks would be happening against a conservative or libertarian black president, no?

[Libertymike]

Are we forgeting that Obama himself is an avowed racist? He is a beneficiary of racist affirmative action policies. He openly attended and worshipped at a racist church. He has never categorically denounced reparations nor has he condemned affirmative action.

And Matt is worried about Glenn Beck? No, it is probably jealousy.

[Warren]

John | September 15, 2009, 11:13am | #
Yes Warren. No one who is educated beleives in God. The whole 5000 plus year history of religous thought and philisophy was just tooth fairy stuff. Honestly, you are not that stupid are you?

Yes John. That's exactly what I said. Oh wait, no it isn't. I'd explain it to you, but it involves concepts like statistical correlation that I don't think you've learned about yet.

[Seward]

Neu Mejican,

In other words, it isn't that racist statements haven't been made about a President in the past, it is that Obama of a different skin hue that is the issue.

[Andrea]

Like Limbaugh, Beck is a bit of a flashpoint and a convenient demon.

At least we're not yet hearing that Beck is the new "spokesperson" for the Republican Party.

[bagoh20]

I expect that team Obama has already decided that the racism charge is good for a reelection theme. The idea being if they can keep white guilt alive they can use it again for votes. I think this is a big mistake. The racism charge has jumped the shark. It just makes people angry now and nobody cares much if you call them racist anymore. Being labeled a "Liberal" is worse, and always accurate.

[Steve Horwitz]

If "anti-government" = "racist" because some Tea Partiers are racist, then "anti-war" must be "anti-Semitic" because some anti-war protestors were clearly anti-Semites.

There's nutjobs in every political movement Lord knows. But if all the Left has in response to the Tea Parties is to scream "racism," then they are utterly incapable of defending their own ideas and civil political discourse is dead.

[BeesInTheBrain]

Personally, after being raised as a male in a house where weekly NOW meeting, MS magazines and marches for the ERA amendment were the norm, they are going to try harder to make me feel guilty for disagreeing with the presidents fiscal policy. Simply calling me racist just ain't going to cut it.

[Xeones]

At least we're not yet hearing that Beck is the new "spokesperson" for the Republican Party.

No, but apparently, he's now the spokesman for small-L libertarians.

[Blunt]

I got five bucks that says the kid in the "That's Racist" pic will be in jail before he turns 15.

[Libertymike]

Really, Matt is projecting intense professional envy. Face it, Glenn Beck is playing in the major leagues while Matt is languishing in Single A. Glenn is a mammoth nova shining brightly in the media/popular culture/popular appeal and influence/intellectual gravitas universe while Matt is a spec of cosmic dust.

But, I guess Beck is retarded cause Matt says so. Good luck with that.

[John]

"And of course some sub-set of the comments made about any modern President are racist in nature. Nothing new there."

People accused Bush of blowing up the levy's in New Orleans. My God, how many "George Bush hates black people" rants happened during his 8 years? Hundreds? How many would have happened if Bush had attended a white equivelent of Reverend Wright's church for 20 years? Thousands?

[Neu Mejican]

Seward,

I must admit I am confused as to why your comments are addressed towards me.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Well said, Steve Horwitz.

[Joe M]

...if Walter Williams were in the White House...

Man, that would be SWEET.

[P Brooks]

apparently, he's now the spokesman for small-L libertarians.

Henceforth, when asked, I will describe myself as a Whig.

[Episiarch]

Don't have time to read the rest of the comments, but I just have to say that the desperation of these people to tar anything they oppose with "racist" is very retro. I thought that the whole "call your opponent a racist" thing had utterly lost all power from total overuse.

[Tony]

Maybe if teabaggers demonstrated an acquaintance with truth people wouldn't wonder so much about their motivations. Also, maybe if they weren't almost 100% white just like the talking heads they get their marching orders from.

[hmm]

The left is going to destroy race relations in this country by screaming you hate the black president every time someone disagrees the administrations policies. There's a following for just that type of retarded logic. There's an interesting "some of my best friends are black" culture I run into all the time when dealing with the progressive movement. It's almost a retarded badge of honor that allows liberally minded people to call everyone else a racist.

This is like all the retards that called Bush a racist for the shit in Katrina. Same morons, different president. It must be a rough life when the crux of everyone of your arguments hinges on racism.

[P Brooks]

Glenn is a mammoth nova shining brightly in the media/popular culture/popular appeal and influence/intellectual gravitas universe

Wheee!

[John]

"Yes John. That's exactly what I said. Oh wait, no it isn't. I'd explain it to you, but it involves concepts like statistical correlation that I don't think you've learned about yet."

Well lets go to the tape.

"Warren | September 15, 2009, 11:11am | #

John | September 15, 2009, 11:01am | #
"Sorry, but I just don't want to associate with anyone who believes in Tooth Fairies and Santa Claus."

Then enjoy life in the wilderness educated society.

FIFY"

You changed what I said to "educated society". Why would you be enjoying life in "educated society" by not believing in God? That would presuppose that educated society doesn't believe in God and those outside of educated society do. That means that those who believe in God are not part of educated society, which is of course complete and utter bullshit and contradicted by about 5000 years of human history.

Yes, Warren, that is exactly what you said.

[Andrea]

And why, exactly, can those claiming racism not imagine these same accusation being made against a white, liberal president?

The adoration of Obama was because of who he was as a person. The criticism, now, because of his race?

Methinks the problem is with criticism of Obama.

[Joe M]

Tony, kindly refrain from speaking, thank you.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Libertymike,

I must confess I'm more familiar with Welch's work than Beck's. Even were that not so, one can be a great actor without being a movie star. I suppose Beck's celebrity could be viewed as a double-edged sword.

[Tony]

I got five bucks that says the kid in the "That's Racist" pic will be in jail before he turns 15.

Don't you hate it when someone comes along and spoils all the breathless indignation by actually being racist?

[John]

"Also, maybe if they weren't almost 100% white just like the talking heads they get their marching orders from."

So you think the anti-Iraq war protests and the netroots, which are almost entirely white, are racist? Really Tony do tell.

[Art-P.O.G.]

hmmm,

Sadly, you're right.

[BoscoH]

They are dismissing, not explaining. Limited government types need to come up with their own equally over-the-top dismissive sound bite for those who want government control of everything. I nominate "small penis" and "incontinence". The trick is to be overtly mean when using them and make them sound like explanations.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Don't you hate it when someone comes along and spoils all the breathless indignation by actually being racist?

Sshhh, you'll summon Dick Hoste.

[John]

"There's an interesting "some of my best friends are black" culture I run into all the time when dealing with the progressive movement."

They always say that, but the "black friends" in question never seem to be around.

[Neu Mejican]

So, here we have a demonstration of the problem.

Tony and Blunt are two sides of the same coin.

Pretending that they do not exist in your ranks, whichever side you are on, makes you look disingenuous. Allowing them to stand next to you and spout their silliness, unfortunately, makes it hard for people to hear a more substantive message.

[Caged Lion]

You'd have to be blind to see that there is a huge undercurrent of racial resentment at those rallies. That explains why, even with a huge african american event a stone's throw away, there was no intermingling from the Black Family Reunion crowd.

Noone is saying that all the teabaggers are racist. But when your movement tolerates hate speech, and has leaders (beck, limbaugh) that excel at stoking white racial resentment, why would any black person feel at home in such a movement. The spattering of black faces there are only the fringe of the black community, that would feel comfortable at a lynching.

[SugarFree]

Crypto-Republicans like Crypto-Republicans. Shocking.

Beck's brand of theocon populism is a very old phenomenon in America. It wasbankrupt when William Jennings Bryant espoused it and it's bankrupt now.

[Kolohe]

I am genuinely surprised that Libertymike appears to be a fan of Glenn Beck; I would think Beck's more or less overt support of what Mike would consider the 'warfare state' would preclude this.

[Caged Lion]

Libertarians have a chance to be what republicans refused to be: a race-neutral movement/party. It is important to be upfront in squashing any racist innuendo up front.

Embracing a bunch of irrational kooks and bigots just to build a base is the same devil's deal the republican made nearly 40 years ago.

[Matt Welch]

At least we're not yet hearing that Beck is the new "spokesperson" for the Republican Party.

In fact, the claim was made on that very program that Beck was one of the "leaders" of the Republican Party.

[sage]

Glenn Beck has described Obama's health care plan as intentional "reparations" for slavery.

This is not a racist statement. Retarded, yes, but not racist. If he had accused Obama of having a plan to somehow engineer Obamacare such that only blacks would benefit, that would be a different story.

Beck may be a racist, but this was not a racist statement IMO.

[Caged Lion]

also I have a small penis and I'm incontinent

[Matt Welch]

And Matt is worried about Glenn Beck? No, it is probably jealousy.

Not worried, and OMG definitely not jealous.

[Nick]

Just because Beck is more famous and popular than Matt means he can't also be at least occasionally retarded?

[Seward]

Neu Mejican,

Pretending that they do not exist in your ranks, whichever side you are on, makes you look disingenuous.

This is just beyond stupid.

Look, I don't have any "ranks." I just have myself.

[Blunt]

"Don't you hate it when someone comes along and spoils all the breathless indignation by actually being racist?"

I was basing it on his unmistakable entitlement attitude. Kid needs a beat down. Absent that, he's going to jail.

[Caged Lion]

John,

That's better than a teabagger rally, where you can overhear people bragging about knowing skinheads and neo-confederates.

[Tony]

So you think the anti-Iraq war protests and the netroots, which are almost entirely white, are racist?

I'm gonna need a citation for that. I assume you're restricting your comments to American protesters, as there were of course tens of millions of anti-Iraq war protesters around the world.

[SugarFree]

Caged Lion, why don't you and Blunt go jack each other off while the adults are talking.

[FrBunny]

You'd have to be blind to see...

That's deep.

[Mike M.]

Are we forgetting that Obama himself is an avowed racist?

Not all of us are. I still remember him calling his own grandmother a "typical white person". And I still have no idea just what the heck that even is.

[Matt Welch]

But, I guess Beck is retarded cause Matt says so.

Didn't say he was "retarded"; in fact, he's clever and often entertaining (because I say so). The Obamacare = reparations argument, that's what I'm calling "retarded."

[John]

Caged Lion and Mexican,

How exactly are people embracing the kooks? Yea, a few people out of several hundred thousand who showed at the 9-12 march were kooks. What were the majority non-kooks supposed to do about it? Beat them up. What are people supposed to do about Glen Beck? Have him shot? Taken off the air. It is a free country. Beck can say what he wants.

The question is, why do you think he is so important when you admit that he doesn't speak for a majority or even a significant minority of small government conservatives and libertarians? What is your point beyond smearing people whom you for the most part should be agreeing with?

[Caged Lion]

"Glenn Beck has described Obama's health care plan as intentional "reparations" for slavery.

This is not a racist statement. Retarded, yes, but not racist. If he had accused Obama of having a plan to somehow engineer Obamacare such that only blacks would benefit, that would be a different story.

Beck may be a racist, but this was not a racist statement IMO."

Cognitive dissonance, anyone? Should i spell it out?

Obama's healthcare plan is intentional reparations=obamacare is engineered to only benefit black folks

[Xeones]

How many would have happened if Bush had attended a white equivelent of Reverend Wright's church for 20 years?

How many would have happened if Bush hadn't appointed both the first black Secretary of State AND the second black Secretary of State?

[FrBunny]

I'm gonna need a citation for that.

Ooo, Tony asking for a citation! Good stuff. Where's TAO when you need him?

[Seward]

To me it has always been the oddest thing that some group of people must be formally expelled from an organization which has come together voluntarily. It smacks of the Judean People's Front sort of thinking, and it is just, well, creepy.

[Neu Mejican]

Sage,

The rant about reparations needs to be read in toto, imho, to get the point. Out of context, I guess, it may appear simply retarded rather than racist. I saw him deliver the rant on his show...in that context I couldn't read it as anything but sheer racist fantasy. Opinions, will, of course, differ.

[How Big is Your End of Life Fo]

"also I have a small penis and I'm incontinent"

Hi, Caged Lion.

[John]

"To me it has always been the oddest thing that some group of people must be formally expelled from an organization which has come together voluntarily. It smacks of the Judean People's Front sort of thinking, and it is just, well, creepy."

Exactly. The fact that an angry mob didn't attack the birthers at the 9-12 march, doesn't mean that the birthers somehow speak for everyone there.

[Seward]

FYI: Most the racists I've met in my life were populists of some kind, a large % of them being folks who loyally vote for Democrats. I've never met a libertarian who was a racist, and it wouldn't make much sense for a libertarian to be a racist.

[SugarFree]

in pre-Emancipation America, was it legal to have a white slave? Not "one drop" or indentured servant working off debt, but actual chattel slavery of a Caucasian.

[John]

The biggest racists I have ever met were a group of public school teachers from inner city Dallas. These people honestly had fantasies of turning birth control or worse poison loose in the water supplies of inner city America.

[hmm]

I don't think you can draw a reparations argument. There is an argument for the fulfillment of long standing desire by the progressive movement. I could see how one might look at a lot of progressive movement policies as directed at disenfranchised, which would create a tenuous thread to reparations. The white guilt is thick in the people leading the progressive party. The absolutely disgusting thing about it is the movement manipulates the black community to do their bidding and then throws them under the bus at every time something goes wrong. The whole racist for disliking Obama policy is a perfect example.

[Caged Lion]

I said they tolerate these elements. And many do embrace them.

I don't think people should be assaulted, but they should be called out, certainly.

I remember a youtube video during election08. At a McCain rally, there was a guy there with a big banner essentially insulting arabs and muslims. What impressed me was when several people confronted this guy and said that this attitude was not acceptable. I can't imagine someone confronting the neoconfederate folks at the 912 rally to tell them that their confed flags are unacceptable.

Also, when you have people at these gatherings saying they think Beck is so wise, and this is the guy who explicitly stokes white resentment, that is not a place I want to be.

[John]

"in pre-Emancipation America, was it legal to have a white slave? Not "one drop" or indentured servant working off debt, but actual chattel slavery of a Caucasian."

I don't think so. But I am not sure what the actual rule for being black was. I really need to read "That Peculuar Institution" one of these days. The actual mechanics of slavery and the grim reality of it, are not taught enough in schools.

[?]

This last bit, at the least, is true...and retarded.

It's a synthesis of the motives and priorities Obama claimed for himself before he decided to be a national-level politician and his evident but differently justified legislative priorities now.

I don't think it's the right read, but it's not stupid. Real idiots believe what he says, whenever he says it.

[Caged Lion]

"The question is, why do you think he is so important when you admit that he doesn't speak for a majority or even a significant minority of small government conservatives and libertarians? What is your point beyond smearing people whom you for the most part should be agreeing with?"

He seems so important, because he promoted the rally from his show. And many of the people there seem to regard him like Obamaniacs regard Obama.

[Neu Mejican]

Sage,

Look, I don't have any "ranks." I just have myself.

I am not saying you, sage, have ranks. I was discussing a groups of people who identify themselves as a "movement." When you are presenting yourself to the world as a group, as a movement, people will associate your motives as a group with the statements made by the members of the group you let stand with you. It was pointed out above that these groups are free associations. That includes the freedom to disassociate yourself from the people who are saying things you disagree with.

John,
You identify the challenge the tea party folks need to figure out a solution to if they want to avoid the perception from others that they embrace the ideas of the kooks in their midst, particularly when one of those kooks has as big a platform as Beck.

[Rich]

The Tea Parties are experienced by many black Americans as a "racial assault."

I long ago realized I cannot understand statements like this. However, I accept that others have backgrounds and mindsets -- hence perceptions -- different from mine.

This being said, I heard a germane conversation yesterday.
P1 (white, FWIW): The DC protesters are against Obama because he is black.
P2: No; they just oppose his policies.
P1: That's merely a way of saying they're against a black man.
P2: [astonished silence]

[Tony]

The white guilt is thick in the people leading the progressive party.

Would that be the party whose leader is a black man? Or the movement that is responsible for black advancement for the past 100 years?

Let's just ignore the southern strategy and the phenomenon of white racial resentment that has been the bread and butter of the GOP and its associated movements during this time.

Then you go on to essentially say that blacks are allied with progressives because they're so duped. Lovely. Why can't they see the light and join the GOP that has been so good for black advancement in this country.

[Xeones]

Rich, P1 in your comment is an example of what we call "retarded."

[MattXIV]

Neu,

This is an unfair comparison.
The racism accusations are made based on the attacks on Obama, not the attacks on the policies he supports.

They were racists because they didn't think brown people could form a self-governing democracy. It's easy to play this game if you want to. Also, even Beck's stuff for the most part IS about his policies - screaming "socialism" over and over again in regards to a healthcare bill may not be particularly insightful but it's definitely about policy.

At this point I don't see any reason to even address the accusations that the teaparty movement is full of racists. It's obviously false and any statement that concedes some of the people might be racists (if the kind-of-sort-of-maybe racist Beck examples are the best you have then they ARE just playing the race card) will be seized upon and edited to make it look like an admission that all the worst speculations about the tea party movement are true.

The accusations of racism aren't about a serious concern about racism; they're a concerted attempt to move the debate off of what the president is actually doing and onto the personalities of his critics - "addressing" it doesn't matter even if you successfully refute the charges, the topic of debate has already been shifted.

Shut the fuck up is the only proper response at this point rather than endless cycles of self-flagellation every time Glenn Beck says something retarded. I see no reason to afford anything but contempt for people who use false accusations of racism to avoid talking about the issues. The accusations are so off base and so blantanly motivated by political concerns that taking them seriously lends them a legitimacy they don't diserve.

[John]

Racists support lots of policies. You don't think that Democrats don't play on racial fears when they argue against free trade? Jesus, how many times are we going to have to hear about the great Asian economic menace and "sending jobs to India" before someone calls them out for being racists?

The point is that protectionism is bad policy. It doesn't matter that some people support it for racist reasons. What matters is that it is bad policy. In the same way, small government is good or bad policy. That a few kooks or racists support it is irrelevent.

[John]

"Would that be the party whose leader is a black man? Or the movement that is responsible for black advancement for the past 100 years?"

I think black people are responsible for black advancement over the past 100 years. But that is just me. Do you realize how patronizing and shall we say it racist you sound Tony? The black man can't do anything without the helpful white man there to show him the way. Right Tony?

[Xeones]

Tony is also an example of what we call "retarded." 100 years? Really? Remind me again which party the Dixiecrats came from 60 years ago? Hint: It's in the name, and by the way, 60 is significantly less than 100. In fact, which party CURRENTLY SEATS a senator who was an officer of the KKK?

This is in no way an endorsement of the Republicans; it's merely to point out the drooling ignorance of one such as Tony.

[Caged Lion]

I don't believe the sincerity of the teabaggers. When I was agonizing over the warrantless wiretaps, the spying on peaceful antiwar groups, the dilution of habeas corpus, etc....where was this constituency I now see at these teabagging rallies? They were egging on the Decider.

I also can't imagine this level outrage if McCain had been elected, when he would have implemented many of the same big government policies, sans health reform.

So, I find myself asking, what made the difference? What was the tipping point that made these people who tolerated the dilution of many of their constitutional rights, and the deterioration of the exchequer, NOW want to protest.

[Tony]

false accusations of racism to avoid talking about the issues.

So when are teabaggers going to start talking about the issues? Again, perhaps if they weren't so hysterically divorced from reality people wouldn't be so tempted to assume other motives. If all you can do is scream "socialism" "ACORN" "take my country back!" and the like, we're not having a policy discussion.

[Tony]

Xeones the progressive movement hasn't always been in the Democratic party, and current Democrats can no more claim Dixicrats than current Republicans can claim Lincoln or T. Roosevelt.

[Caged Lion]

"The accusations of racism aren't about a serious concern about racism................"

They are if you are a black man with Libertarian ideals and philosophy and would seriously consider joining the movement.

"........STFU........."

I guess we (black libertarians with dignity) have our answer. Sigh.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Genius, Tony. There are so many things wrong with your post it's hard to find a point to start criticizing it.

[John]

"When I was agonizing over the warrantless wiretaps, the spying on peaceful antiwar groups, the dilution of habeas corpus, etc....where was this constituency I now see at these teabagging rallies? They were egging on the Decider."

And Obama has continued all of those policies. Yet, you don't seem to be too agonized now. You seem more interested in sliming people trying to stop Obama than you are in holding him accountable for anything.

"I also can't imagine this level outrage if McCain had been elected, when he would have implemented many of the same big government policies, sans health reform."

Bullshit. The reason McCain lost is that small government conservatives and libertarians stayed home. Further, read any of the accounts that the Reason staff gave of the event and all of them said no one at the event had anything good to say about Bush's spending policies.

Lastly, even if you are right, so what? Are we now supposed to let Obama bankrupt the country just to show people how wrong they were for voting for Bush? Is there no way for anyone to ever change their mind or realize that perhaps things have gotten out of control?

[Tony]

Do you realize how patronizing and shall we say it racist you sound Tony? The black man can't do anything without the helpful white man there to show him the way. Right Tony?

When did I say the progressive movement was led by whites?

[Rich]

Xeones, the P1s of the world are truly amazing. Had I been P2, my response probably would have been two-worded. It is next to impossible to have a rational conversation with a hardcore P1.

[sage]

I am not saying you, sage, have ranks.

You are barking up the wrong tree. Go back and read the comment, including who posted it.

And to respond to your earlier comment that was actually to something I actually wrote, I've never watched Beck's show. He could be the biggest racist there is besides Al Sharpton, but I wouldn't know it.

[Xeones]

Tony, since when are you capable of having a policy discussion?

[SugarFree]

Neu Mejican,

I think the problem I have (and I suspect many other on the board) is that if the "movement" expelled Beck and the set of "actual racists" it wouldn't lead anywhere. The remaining set would still be racists for opposing Obama. (This doesn't mean I'm interested in associating with them.)

As racism has become less acceptable in polite society the designation of it has changed from a positive action "I hate black people" to a negative "How can I prove I'm not a racist?" And you can't prove a negative. The only way out of the charge is to agree with them on everything. When the opposition is racist, merely for being the opposition, racism is nothing that can be purged.

[Troy]

The biggest racists I have ever met were a group of public school teachers from inner city Dallas. These people honestly had fantasies of turning birth control or worse poison loose in the water supplies of inner city America.

This doesn't surprise me one iota.

[Caged Lion]

Tony,

I am indeed agonized. THUS, the point of this thread in a way.

I would LIKE to join these protests, as they speak to my angst, but I am not going to stand beside people who tolerate anti-Black sentiments and are driven by white resentment.

[Caged Lion]

Oops, I meant John

[Caged Lion]

"And you can't prove a negative. The only way out of the charge is to agree with them on everything."

No the way out of that charge is to not make racist statements and actions, or to tolerate people who do. It's not rocket science.

[Neu Mejican]

MATTXIV,

I actually agree with you.
My point is that you are better off as a group to take that tool away from your opponents that want to distract from the substantive discussions.

It's obviously false and any statement that concedes some of the people might be racists

See, here ya go. If you had said this without the hedge, it would be tougher to keep the focus of the discussion on whether or not "racists are in your ranks."

[John]

"I would LIKE to join these protests, as they speak to my angst, but I am not going to stand beside people who tolerate anti-Black sentiments and are driven by white resentment."

Why not go yourself and tell the birthers and such to fuck off?

[Neu Mejican]

Sage,

Oops. My apologies. That should have been directed at Seward.

[Xeones]

What was the tipping point that made these people who tolerated the dilution of many of their constitutional rights, and the deterioration of the exchequer, NOW want to protest.

I think the anger has a lot more to do with watching the government quadruple spending in a recession, with no apparent benefit whatsoever to the average taxpayer, than with racism. If you understand the 2008 election results as a repudiation of big-spending Republicans and not an embrace of bigger-spending Democrats, this makes a lot of sense.

[Andrea]

Matt Welch: "In fact, the claim was made on that very program that Beck was one of the "leaders" of the Republican Party."

**************

Somehow I knew that. It's usually the biggest haters of Limbaugh, Beck, et al, who say they're the new "leader".

Presume it's meant to be a dig.

[Caged Lion]

It's not my job to clean up your movement.

If Libertarians want to be Republican, The Sequel, all power to them.

[John]

People gave Bush a pass on the spending because of 9-11. If 9-11 had never happened and Bush had spent that much, he would have never won re-election in 2004. I don't know where people get this idea that people supported Bush because of his spending rather than in spite of his spending. People spent the Bush years argueing over the war, not the budget deficit.

[radical]

if you really want to look at whether red team or blue team is better for the blacks, ask yourself which team supports school choice for inner city kids and which team opposes a proven reform because they are indebted to unions

[Caged Lion]

When I see people with Beck2012 signs and praising this guy as a leader, I take Beck as a new leader.

[John]

"It's not my job to clean up your movement.

If Libertarians want to be Republican, The Sequel, all power to them."

If you are not willing to participate and do something, then quit whining about those who do. In the end though, I think your complaints have more to do with culture. Racism is just a fig leaf. The bottom line is that you just can't be associated people you can't identify with culturaly. Those people are not racists and you know it. They are just icky.

[jp]

Whatever happened to Joe? I miss him.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Why not go yourself and tell the birthers and such to fuck off?

This is actually a good idea. Racists are already at the fringes of the movement, so if too many black people show up, they'll probably just leave.

[Neu Mejican]

Sugarfree,

You make a good point. That is why I have been trying to talk about it in more general terms. Progressives have just as much of a problem disassociating themselves from the folks that make baseless racism charges as the tea baggers have disassociating themselves from the racists in their ranks. But it is a big enough problem these days that those squeaky wheel idiots derail any real discussion.

[Caged Lion]

Or you ask which team supports a flawed policy that only helps a fraction of the affected school kids, while enriching historically and predominately white and religious schools at the detriment of the already strained public school system.

[R C Dean]

No the way out of that charge is to not make racist statements and actions, or to tolerate people who do.

Well, then, I expect to see the Dems throwing a lot of people out of their party any day now. You know, leading by example.

[Xeones]

I would LIKE to join these protests, as they speak to my angst, but I am not going to stand beside people who tolerate anti-Black sentiments and are driven by white resentment.

These same people seem pretty tolerant of openly-carried firearms, which do tend to STRONGLY encourage politeness. Just sayin'.

[John]

"This is actually a good idea. Racists are already at the fringes of the movement, so if too many black people show up, they'll probably just leave."

Exactly. Or if more people show up who are not racist, then the racists become less prevelent.

[John]

"Or you ask which team supports a flawed policy that only helps a fraction of the affected school kids, while enriching historically and predominately white and religious schools at the detriment of the already strained public school system."

You have officially reached trolldom with that comment. Already strained public school systems? Are you fucking kidding. They spend enough money per student in Washington DC to send every kid to bording school. Public schools have more money than the should ever need, if the unions would stop stealing it.

[FrBunny]

When I see people with Beck2012 signs and praising this guy as a leader, I take Beck as a new leader.

So if someone else, right beside him, had a sign that said "Beck isn't my leader", would your head explode? Because that's what we're doing on this board, and you don't seem to believe us.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Whatever happened to Joe? I miss him.

jp? j.p.? joe p boyle? Assuming you're for real, see the morning links.

Towed Caged Lion,

Actually, you can make a difference.

[SugarFree]

No the way out of that charge is to not make racist statements and actions, or to tolerate people who do.

When an entire movement is racist for having a few racists associate themselves with it, when individuals are considered racist because they stand beside someone they don't know is racist, when individuals are called racist without any knowledge of any actions by them other than being against the policies of a president who happens to be black, you don't get to run that line of bullshit with me.

What cleans up the movement? A quarter million auto de f?s denouncing racism? Like that won't be dismissed out of hand. Racists lie, you know.

But see, I'm defending myself from accusations of being a racist. Therefore, I must be a racist.

[Caged Lion]

"Progressives have just as much of a problem disassociating themselves from the folks that make baseless racism charges as the tea baggers have disassociating themselves from the racists in their ranks. But it is a big enough problem these days that those squeaky wheel idiots derail any real discussion."

There are fringe people in everymovement. The difference is that you don't see the leaders of the progressive movement embracing or endorsing racist (or at least anti-black) ideas. They are not taking photo ops with the neo-black panther, or whispering to the 911 Truther "you're right" in front of the cameras.

Progressive governors not advocating overthrow of the government or seccession. Elected progressive politicians are not making jokes about shooting the president, even when it was Bush.

[Xeones]

But see, I'm defending myself from accusations of being a racist. Therefore, I must be a racist.

And a fascist.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Exactly. Or if more people show up who are not racist, then the racists become less prevelent.

True. IMO, libertarians get a bum rap on the whole 'alleged racism' front.

[Caged Lion]

Mr Free,

Don't play innocent or ignorant. I can only go by what I see on signs and t-shirts. I can only go by what people say, and who they claim to admire. I can only go by the confederate flags.

Your eyes and ears are as good as mine.

[Neu Mejican]

Sugarfree,

When a baseless charge of racism is made against you personally, it is tough to deflect for the very reason you point out.

When an accusation that your large group included some racists is made, it is easy to condemn those racists and move back to the more substantive issues. If your response is, however, to try and defend the group from the accusation, you are fighting a losing game. imho.

[MattXIV]

Neu,

The problem is that the amount of actual substance behind the accusation doesn't matter - like the birther thing, it's not going to die simply because they isn't any evidence. Even if the small minority of racists who show up at the protests were chased out (which is pratically impossible to do, based on my experience trying to discourage various nuts at protests before) the accusations won't go away - when MSNBC couldn't find a good pic of a scary white guy with a gun, they cropped a black guy's skin out of the picture. This is going to keep getting pushed independent of any factual substance because the people pushing it don't care if it is true as long as it is useful.

[Art-P.O.G.]

The difference is that you don't see the leaders of the progressive movement embracing or endorsing racist (or at least anti-black) ideas.

Whoa, whoa, what about Rev. Wright? Not anti-black, but you see what I'm getting at?

[Tony]

if you really want to look at whether red team or blue team is better for the blacks, ask yourself which team supports school choice for inner city kids and which team opposes a proven reform because they are indebted to unions

So why do blacks steadfastly refuse to move en masse to the party that is so obviously better for them? Why have there only been FIVE black members of Congress in the GOP since reconstruction?

[Caged Lion]

You see/hear the same crap and laugh it off. I take it more seriously.

[Neu Mejican]

Art-POG,

Regarding Wright.
Isn't this exactly what we are talking about?
How much more strongly did Obama need to condemn Wright's statements to wash off the accusation that he was "embracing racists ideas"?

[Caged Lion]

As I recall, Obama had to sever his relationship with Mr Wright.

And I meant political relationships, not who your preacher, cousin, or barber is.

Obama never campaigned with Wright.

[John]

"They are not taking photo ops with the neo-black panther, or whispering to the 911 Truther "you're right" in front of the cameras."

But they are often seen defending people like Castro and Chavez and the Chinese communists. I think excusing and defending Castro, who has actually killed and enslaved millions, is a lot worse than standing next to someone with a pro Glen Beck sign.

[alan]

First they came for the Confederate Battle Flag, and I did not speak out-- because I have no reason to live in the past; Then they came for the Bonnie Blue for the history illiterates just learned of its existence, and I did not speak out-- because I have no nostalgia for the Confederacy; Then they came for the Gadsden Flag, and I did not speak out-- because it was just a flag; Then they came for the American Flag, and I did not speak out-- because I put little value on symbolism; Then they came for the Marine Signal Flags, and I happened to be stuck at sea, and I was completely fucked.

[John]

"As I recall, Obama had to sever his relationship with Mr Wright.

And I meant political relationships, not who your preacher, cousin, or barber is.

Obama never campaigned with Wright."

No he just went to church there every Sunday for 20 years. And he said he couldn't disavow Wright anymore than he could disavow his grand mother.

What is worse, he let his supporters libal black churches everywhere by claiming Wright was a typical black preacher. Black churches, and I have been to a few, don't say 9-11 was an inside job or rant God Damn America and don't claim black liberation theology. To say that was typical is a horrible insult to black America and the kind of thing you would expect out of a real racist.

[How Big is Your End of Life Fo]

"Why not go yourself and tell the birthers and such to fuck off?"

I'm guessing because he is neither black nor Libertarian. "Teabaggers" is the tell.

[sage]

NM,

It's all good. You at least can discuss this stuff without getting all shrill. There are those on both sides that seem to be incapable of as much.

[Andrea]

Tony: "So why do blacks steadfastly refuse to move en masse to the party that is so obviously better for them? Why have there only been FIVE black members of Congress in the GOP since reconstruction?"

************************
Lousy choices?

[SugarFree]

When an accusation that your large group included some racists is made, it is easy to condemn those racists and move back to the more substantive issues. If your response is, however, to try and defend the group from the accusation, you are fighting a losing game.

No, what I'm saying is that it is all a losing game. I don't give a fig about the "movement." And I think they should repudiate the racists, but at the same time I know it will do no good whatsoever. That's the problem I have.

How much more strongly did Obama need to condemn Wright's statements to wash off the accusation that he was "embracing racists ideas"?

This is exactly what I'm getting at.

[Neu Mejican]

John,

But they are often seen defending people like Castro and Chavez and the Chinese communists. I think excusing and defending Castro, who has actually killed and enslaved millions, is a lot worse than standing next to someone with a pro Glen Beck sign.

But using that association as a way to derail the substantive discussion is a problem whether you are screaming "commie" or "racist."

Playing the race/commie card is a powerful tool. Protecting your movement from it takes active steps. You can't just hope that it will go away.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Neu Mejican and Towed Lion,

Fair enough. I was just trying to point out that libertarianism is not unique in that regard.

[John]

"But using that association as a way to derail the substantive discussion is a problem whether you are screaming "commie" or "racist." "

I think people who defend Casto and wear Che shirts are disgracful. It is no different than wearing a shirt with Georing on it. Yet, I gaurentee you, you could go to any leftist blog and put up a comment thread about it and no one would have a problem with Castro. Here, everyone admits that racists are persona non-grata. Yet, you seem to think it is Liberarians who need to more forcefully speak out against kooks. I don't think so.

[SugarFree]

Don't defend yourself against a bogus charge of racism. You probably deserved it for something else.

Hold onto your lunch.

[How Big is Your End of Life Fo]

"When I see people with Beck2012 signs and praising this guy as a leader, I take Beck as a new leader."

Fabricate much?

[Neu Mejican]

Sugarfree,

I agree. I think the strongest condemnation needs to be directed at partisans who put the team first. The race/commie card game is played by those that think that "we" have "the solution" and that those who don't agree are "bad people who are [racists/commies/retarded/etc.]".

[Art-P.O.G.]

Caged Lion,

The last time I called you "Towed Lion" was genuinely an accident. I apologize.

[Cool Cal]

Where can I hear a recording of this broadcast?

[jp]

@ Art-P.O.G.:

Whatever happened to Joe? I miss him.

jp? j.p.? joe p boyle? Assuming you're for real, see the morning links.

Yup, I'm for real. Just an old H&R fan who hasn't been around much lately.

Thanks for the pointer. Maybe I'm misremembering, but I felt there was an air of sincerity about Joe that seems to be missing from the newer liberals here.

[John]

Neu Mexican,

How are the people who sit around and talk about the free healthcare in Cuba any different than the kooks who sit around and talk about how the antebellum South wasn't such a bad place? I don't see a difference. Yet, you are perfectly willing to tar everyone on the right with the racist label. But somehow think that the left is immune from being called out for having sympathy for communism.

[Seward]

Neu Mejican,

It was pointed out above that these groups are free associations. That includes the freedom to disassociate yourself from the people who are saying things you disagree with.

And they will. But it will not be done by some centralized committee of intellectual purity; especially if we are talking about libertarians, small government types, etc. here.

As far as Wright is concerned, I really don't see how Obama comes out all that well in that whole deal. (1) Either he believes or believed what Wright was saying or (2) he used Wright to further his career or (3) he just turned a blind eye to it all or (4) he had no idea what was going on. Neither of these is very flattering IMHO. Of course, this sort of thing isn't really all that unusual in American politics, so I was never all that freaked out by it, particularly since (1) seems highly unlikely.

[How Big is Your End of Life Fo]

"Your eyes and ears are as good as mine."

You do know Mister Free has died? Twice? 😉

[SugarFree]

Neu Mejican,

Hmm... sweet resolution...

Although, psychologically speaking, I imagine everyone thinks that they are on the correct side and have "the solution."

For the record, I don't think people who aren't libertarians are evil, but I have no measure of mercy for those who think libertarians are.

[Tony]

Seward,

Obama's little secret re: Wright is that the Obamas didn't really go to church that often.

[Neu Mejican]

Yet, you seem to think it is Liberarians who need to more forcefully speak out against kooks.

John, it gets tiring the way you attribute ideas to me because you perceive me as being a member of the opposition. I think BOTH sides (I have called BOTH sides out throughout this thread) need to condemn the kooks.

FWIW, I currently live in the Northwest. There is no shortage of liberals who call out the Che worship as glorification of a killer. It is a tough one.

[SugarFree]

joe, for those who did not spend much time with him, loved nothing more than to play dumb and then dismiss other people because they were playing dumb. He also loved to indulge in confirmation bias.

Don't play innocent or ignorant. I can only go by what I see on signs and t-shirts. I can only go by what people say, and who they claim to admire. I can only go by the confederate flags.

[Tony]

Of course Bush killed more than Che and Fidel combined many times over, but saying so is likely to get you labeled as a kook by the likes of John.

[Neu Mejican]

John,

Yet, you are perfectly willing to tar everyone on the right with the racist label. But somehow think that the left is immune from being called out for having sympathy for communism.

See. Like I said. Tiring.

[Mike M.]

On the subject of race, I can't believe that this hasn't come up yet.

Apparently even infants will no longer be immune from scrutiny regarding the dreaded R-word.

[How Big is Your End of Life Fo]

"Of course Bush killed more than Che and Fidel combined many times over"

Maybe so, but he didn't do it personally like Che and Fidel did.

And unlike Che and Fidel, he didn't delight in it.

[How Big is Your End of Life Fo]

"On the subject of race, I can't believe that this hasn't come up yet."

I wonder why they picked a white baby?

[Seward]

Tony,

Obama's little secret re: Wright is that the Obamas didn't really go to church that often.

I don't think that matters much. You don't have to show up every Sunday or even every other Sunday to identify with a church.

Again, this sort of thing is very common in U.S. politics.

[Neu Mejican]

Sugarfree,

Although, psychologically speaking, I imagine everyone thinks that they are on the correct side and have "the solution."

Indeed. It why people need to actively work to disassociate the perceived correctness of the solution from who supports the solution. The solution may be correct, but it is not correct because it came from my team. It is correct for other reasons. The danger is confusing your sympathy for the source for the validity of the idea.

[Sean W. Malone]

"Obama's little secret re: Wright is that the Obamas didn't really go to church that often."

Are you suggesting Obama attended a prominent Chicago church not because he believed in the message or the pastor, but perhaps just to score political points with religious voters?

Yeah... That's better.

Also... Everyone's a little bit racist!

[Neu Mejican]

regarding the loss of joe.

There was nothing worse than trying to have a discussion about the environment and having joe jump in on "your side" of the argument.

That said, he forced a lot of people to defend their views with substance rather than vague assumptions of correctness.

[Caged Lion]

I guess we are at an impasse: I see people who openly embrace anti-black sentiment in your camp, while you say they don't exist.

[SugarFree]

There was nothing worse than trying to have a discussion about the environment and having joe jump in on "your side" of the argument.

Oh, I remember a few of those. He also was actively detrimental to anyone arguing for mass transit.

[Pro Libertate]

I think people around here are often more impressed with the abundant use of logical fallacies than they should be.

[Sean W. Malone]

People everywhere fit that description ProLib.

[Neu Mejican]

Maybe so, but he didn't do it personally like Che and Fidel did.

Wow, talk about beside the point.

And unlike Che and Fidel, he didn't delight in it.

Is that you George?

[Neu Mejican]

/sarcasm.

[John]

"There is no shortage of liberals who call out the Che worship as glorification of a killer."

I live in the Northeast and I don't know a single liberal, and I know and live around a lot of them, who will do that.

What is tiresome is the fig leaf of "I think both sides are bad". Yeah, well that may be true, but you only seem to bitch about one side. Further, you prove my point. You don't tar all liberals with the brush of supporting communism because you seem to know a few who call out the che t-shirt wearers. In contrast, we have an entire thread of people calling out the "racists" such as they are at the 9-12 march saying they don't speak for the movement, but that somehow isn't good enough for you.

[Pro Libertate]

True enough.

[Pro Libertate]

True enough, Sean, that is.

[John]

"Of course Bush killed more than Che and Fidel combined many times over"

That is statment is beyond retarded. That is only true if you blame all of the deaths atributable to our enemies on George Bush. By that logic, Rossvelt killed 45 million people in World War II.

[Neu Mejican]

I wonder if it would be possible to have a substantive discussion about who was more wrong in their use of war, Fidel vs. Bush.

I am guessing it would be tough.

[P Brooks]

Rossvelt killed 45 million people in World War II.

Somebody had to do it.

As they left the rally, many of those with opposing views walked through the Black Family Reunion, some stopping to eat at the booths. Protesters at the "tea party" protest were mostly white; the reunion crowd was nearly all black.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/13/AR2009091302538.html

[John]

"I wonder if it would be possible to have a substantive discussion about who was more wrong in their use of war, Fidel vs. Bush."

Sure. Let's start with Cuban involvement in Angola. Then we can move to Cuban support for communist guirilla groups in Central America and the hundreds of thousands who died in the subsequent civil wars. How about that?

With all this screaming about racism, it's bound to get popular.

Today's taboo is tomorrow's fashion statement.

"I see people who openly embrace anti-black sentiment in your camp, while you say they don't exist."

Hey Lion. You ever link to anything or do you just shoot loose stools out of your mouth?

[Neu Mejican]

John,

Yeah, well that may be true, but you only seem to bitch about one side.

OK. If you say so.

Further, you prove my point. You don't tar all liberals with the brush of supporting communism because you seem to know a few who call out the che t-shirt wearers.

Because that has been my point all along. You shouldn't use the broad brush.

In contrast, we have an entire thread of people calling out the "racists" such as they are at the 9-12 march saying they don't speak for the movement, but that somehow isn't good enough for you.

Huh? I applaud all efforts to do this. I encourage it throughout the thread.

I even give advice on how to do it more effectively. Like I said...tiring.

[P Brooks]

I'm going to stop beating my wife, too.

Someday.

"Rossvelt killed 45 million people in World War II."

The bastard!

[John]

"I even give advice on how to do it more effectively. Like I said...tiring."

Do you do the same "favor" to your liberal friends about apologizing for communism? I doubt it.

[SugarFree]

As they left the rally, many of those with opposing views walked through the Black Family Reunion, some stopping to eat at the booths.

Fuckin'-A. I love street fair/booth food. The Latino Heritage Festival is soon. The Nicaraguan tamale I had last year was awesome.

[John]

"The Latino Heritage Festival is soon. The Nicaraguan tamale I had last year was awesome."

In Washington? Latin American Street food is the best.

[Neu Mejican]

John,

Why yes, yes I do.
Why do you doubt it?

[Tony]

John,

Stop making a false equivalence between racists in America and communist supporters in America. I don't in fact know anyone public or private who is an active communist. Perhaps you do, but the fact is there has never been the threat of authoritarian communism taking over this country. I'd argue that anti-communist hysteria has done far more harm to this country than communism ever will, and the historical effect of racism goes without saying.

[SugarFree]

Sorry, John. I meant in Lexington. And our various Octoberfests start this weekend.

[James Ard]

The fact is, it's possible to be pissed about OJ, Katrina, black crime rates, black graduation rates, Rev. Wright, Castro fellatio, acorn and who knows what else, and still oppose Obama on nothing other than policy grounds. And being mad at LBJ and the Democrats for purposefully creating the mess doesn't make you a racist either.

[Sean W. Malone]

I know this just makes one more anecdote in the pile, but I grew up in the midwest. I've traveled to some 35-40 states in the US, I've been all over Europe, I've been to South America...

Most people, for whatever their private feelings about different groups of people, just aren't that bad. Most people are hospitable, friendly and helpful - most people would rather be your friend or sell you something than be your enemy and try to take from you. Most people, in short, do the best they can to maintain voluntary relationships with everyone.

There's some racism everywhere... Some places the racism is really severe if not all that violent (try Indonesia, Thailand, Taiwan, China or Japan btw). In America though, I have yet to meet a single serious honest-to-god, no-kidding racist who wasn't looked at with contempt & scorn.

The vast majority of my closest friends - even the non-political ones are unhappy with the way things are going. None of them are remotely racist and I can assure you that if one of them did start exhibiting racist tendencies, the rest of my friends would lay the proverbial smack down. Ironically, my Hollywood liberal friends do often exhibit racist tendencies - preferring to make judgments about everything from authenticity of character, to wealth, to integrity and honesty first off of appearances. Many more do what Tony did upthread and take the insulting position that "minorities" need a special handout 150 years after slavery ended and 50 years after the civil rights movement because they are just not capable of making it on their own. Collectivism rears its disgusting head again.

But even then - most of them are often resigned to defending the spending, the power grabs and the insanity going on right now by either saying that "Well, Bush started it!", or "Obama is just cleaning up Bush's mess - and if he didn't have to do that, then we wouldn't need to spend so much!", or of course claiming that their opponents are racists.

But NO one really approves of any of this. No one.

When people in the media and especially those Democratic politicians like my own Nancy Pelosi start to figure out that these protests have nothing what-so-ever to do with racism and start actually engaging on the problems with policy, then the anger level will drop. But until they do that... Things are probably going to stay pretty ugly up in here.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Is your baby racist?

"Goo goo ga ga, ihre papieren, bitte."

[John]

What Sean W. Malone Said!!

[FrBunny]

The Nicaraguan tamale I had last year was awesome.

Did he leave immediately afterward?

Democratic Congressman Pete Stark shows Joe Wilson a thing or two about civility:

Rep. Pete Stark (D-Calif), was getting the tea party treatment at a meeting with seniors in Fremont when a 65-plus guy in the audience launched into a diatribe about the public option.

The man, to the hoots and hollers of his compatriots in the crowd, concluded with: "Mr. Congressman, don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining."

"I wouldn't dignify you by peeing on your leg, it wouldn't be worth wasting the urine," said Stark, who recently referred to Blue Dog Dems as "brain-dread.""

[Michael Ejercito]

"I wouldn't dignify you by peeing on your leg, it wouldn't be worth wasting the urine," said Stark, who recently referred to Blue Dog Dems as "brain-dread.""

How is that different from complaining about RINO's?

"In America though, I have yet to meet a single serious honest-to-god, no-kidding racist who wasn't looked at with contempt & scorn."

Never been to the ghetto, have you?

Because the collective racism is stiffling. It's also why it's so difficult for them to leave. They can't comprehend much less adopt to civil society.

[SugarFree]

Did he leave immediately afterward?

Racist and heterosexist. Impressive.

But, seriously...

[Gene Callahan]

"But, that is something liberals do all the time to Jewish supporters of Israel..."

Say what, John?! Most of those supporters ARE liberals.

[Sean W. Malone]

"never been to the ghetto"

Does 150th St. on the West Side in NYC count? 😛

Seriously though, that actually does bring up a valid point - there are plenty of racists who aren't looked at with scorn & contempt, but at least from my media/entertainment industry vantage point, they're largely borderline retarded people who make up the general audience of comedians like Paul Mooney.

[John]

"But, that is something liberals do all the time to Jewish supporters of Israel..."

Say what, John?! Most of those supporters ARE liberals."

It doesn't matter. A whole lot of liberals embraced Mearsheimer and Walt. Jews are a disfavored minority these days.

[Janeane Garofalo]

It's racism, straight up.

[SugarFree]

Thanks for that penetrating insight, Janeane.

You may now resume getting increasingly uglier with every passing day. Maybe more tattoos, perhaps.

[Hazel Meade]

Well, one reason libertarians should show up to the protests is specifically to shout down anyone there making racists statements, and to encourage others there to do so as well.

But of course, the effort to tar symbols like the 'Don't Tread On Me' flag as racist is obviously just a contrivance of the left to try to suppress dissent, and tar anyone who supports limited government as a racist.

Really, when I see shit like that going on I think. "Wow, liberals must be really fucking stupid if they think we are that stupid."

That's their downfall. They think they are sooooo much smarter than everyone else, that they go around engaging in this blatantly transparent propaganda and think nobody else recognizes it for what it is. They are just smugly inside their brains going "bwhahahha, those idiots will NEVER figure out the ruse we've pulled on them!" Idiots.

[MattXIV]

Neu,

The reason I said "might" is because in any protest of over 1000 people, odds are good you're going have at least one racist in the crowd. I did indeed know a small number of people who opposed the Iraq war on the basis of not wanting to waste American blood and treasure to democratize a bunch of "towelheads". So the "might" would apply to the anti-war protests too. You seem to be demonstrating my point that the adminision that some racists "might" be there will be seized upon as validation of wider claims; in an environment where you know anything you say will be relentlessly quote mined to try to come up with something sound like you're ok with racists (*cough*Caged Lion*cough*) any concession that there even MIGHT be a small number of racists at the protests despite the fact that the overwhelming majority isn't and the issues the protest is organized around don't have anything to do with race will be chopped down to "a ... number of racists at the protests ... the overwhelming majority".

Even if it could be conclusively proved that 99.99% of the protestors weren't motivated by race, it wouldn't matter to the people making these accusations. It'd be nice if we could talk frankly about race relations in America, but when bad faith accusations of racism are the order of the day, the only effective counter is to keep the focus on the dishonesty of the accusers. There isn't a imperative to keep the debate on topic since the topic is being brought up as a distraction in the first place, so trying to shift the debate onto the accusers motives is appropriate and tactically wise since the nature of public political discourse makes it highly disadvantageous to be on the defensive.

[Sean W. Malone]

Ooh... Other anecdote I just thought of.

Once I was accused of racism by an "unattractive black man" (his words) because I wouldn't give him some change on my way into a burger joint. The story alternates between being really damn funny and actually life-threateningly scary.

He really calmly asked for change like any regular panhandler - I didn't have any and tend to only pay street musicians anyway, so I said no... and as if a light-switch flipped off, the guy went violently insane and started yelling and screaming about how the white man keeps him down and I was refusing to help him because he was black (rather than because he reeked of booze, was being a troll and tried to play on my non-existent religious sympathies to take money I didn't even have). After I went in to the restaurant, I watched him repeat this bi-polar pattern with a dozen other people, getting physically threatening with several. On my way out - I believe he called me a "nigga bitch". It immediately became funny again once we were driving away.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Actually, you bring up an interesting point, SugarFree: how can a person have such a wildly varying level of attractiveness? I'm worried. Worried and scared.

[Michael Ejercito]

I did indeed know a small number of people who opposed the Iraq war on the basis of not wanting to waste American blood and treasure to democratize a bunch of "towelheads".

The Stormfront white nationalist types generally oppose the war in Iraq because they believe it is a war for the Jews.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Sean W. Malone,

I believe Peter Bagge did a comic for reason a while back that contained a profile of that sort of panhandler.

[SugarFree]

Art,

I was never a big fan. She always looked smeared to me, like someone hit her with a light gaussian blur effect. And besides, at this point she's 44 and still dresses like she's going to an Avril Lavinge cancer benefit.

"Honey, you got ugly real fast."

[Sean W. Malone]

It all starts out so normal until you realize you're dealing with a psychopath.

[sage]

how can a person have such a wildly varying level of attractiveness?

I hope this doesn't get me the banhammer, but there are some pics of Nancy Pelosi where she actually looks pretty good for a grandmother. And others where I wouldn't go near her even in a double bag situation. Go figure.

[SugarFree]

Get help, sage. Now, before you lose your mental health coverage.

[Sean W. Malone]

Sage...... No. Just... No.

[John]

"I was never a big fan. She always looked smeared to me, like someone hit her with a light gaussian blur effect. And besides, at this point she's 44 and still dresses like she's going to an Avril Lavinge cancer benefit."

A woman can pull off certain looks in her teens and twenties. They are able to do it because they are young and cute and can pull off anything. Young women, who are thin and reasonably attractive, don't have to rely on a "look" to be attractive. They make the look. Jenine was one of those women. She was cute and pulled off a certain look. The problem was she looked okay in spite of that look not because of it. Now she is older and no longer young and cute. She can't carry the look anymore. Instead, she needs to find a look that will carry her. She hasn't done that and instead just looks old and unattractive.

[John]

My wife managed an event involving the Wicked Witch of the West a few months ago. From what my wife said, in person, Pelosi is not even an arm chewer. Years and years of hard living and bad plastic surgeries do bad things to a woman.

[sage]

Maybe some of the pics I've seen are airbrushed or photoshopped.

Sorry!

[Art-P.O.G.]

It all starts out so normal until you realize you're dealing with a psychopath.

You're talking about the panhandler, right? Because for a second I honestly thought you were talking about Garofalo.

She always looked smeared to me, like someone hit her with a light gaussian blur effect.

SugarFree,

I agree, but darned if I know what that 'effect' is.

BTW, I think you guys are being too hard on sage. Power is quite an aphrodisiac.

[Tony]

My wife managed an event involving the Wicked Witch of the West a few months ago. From what my wife said, in person, Pelosi is not even an arm chewer. Years and years of hard living and bad plastic surgeries do bad things to a woman.

Racism bad. Sexism GREAT!

[Art-P.O.G.]

Or, hell, you could have even been talking about a few of our Hit & Run trolls, S W. M. 😀

[SugarFree]

It's a Photoshop filter.

[Art-P.O.G.]

I swear the timing of my 2:47 post was coincidental.

[Art-P.O.G.]

SugarFree,

I knew that, I was just saying I didn't know what aspect of Garofalo's appearance caused that effect. Damn clumsy mouth words.

[sage]

Racism bad. Sexism GREAT!

See? You can't win. If Hillary had won the White House and was pushing her single payer plan, the people who protested would be sexist. Since it's Obama, the protesters are racist. If only an actual weasel had won...

[Tony]

sage,

At least as much vile bigoted filth has been thrown Speaker Pelosi's way as Obama's, I think. Hillary has had her share of sexist attacks.

In liberaltopia we'd be celebrating the fact of the first woman speaker and the first black president as great social achievements. Why can't we be as enlightened as the right who are so color and gender blind that they go right for the meaningful policy debates such as whether the speaker has had plastic surgery?

[John]

Yes because commenting on anyone's looks is sexist.

[Tony]

See? You can't win.

Blah blah blah... poor persecuted white guy. My inability to be, boorish, racist and sexist is the greatest oppression in history!

[Andrea]

Would that be after celebrating the first black secretaries of state?

[Kool]

Hi guys! What did I miss?

Jesus. Evidently, some sort of clusterfuck.

[Neu Mejican]

MATTXIV,

any concession that there even MIGHT be a small number of racists at the protests despite the fact that the overwhelming majority isn't and the issues the protest is organized around don't have anything to do with race will be chopped down

This is why it is important not to hedge.
If you hedge, then it is easy to take the quote out of context. Also, if you do a flat denial (which I think is the strategy you are advocating) then all the opposition has to do to prove you a liar is provide a single example.

If, instead, you don't hedge, and explicitly denounce the racism (and those that play the race card) you are in a better position to move back to the substantive discussion...at least it seems that way to me.

It is hard to misquote "We condemn any and all racists sentiments that were on display today at the rally and have repeatedly emphasized that racist sentiments are not welcome at our tea parties." No hedge to play around with and no denial to use as a "gotcha."

Or so it seems.

[Rich]

... the guy went violently insane and started yelling and screaming about how the white man keeps him down and I was refusing to help him because he was black ...

One of the most clever panhandlers I have ever encountered took a pre-emptive approach: "May I ask if you're prejudiced? You're not?! Oh, thank ya Jebus!!"

[Art-P.O.G.]

Would that be after celebrating the first black secretaries of state?

Good one. 😀

Tony,
I'm picturing you with smeared eyeliner, in hysterics: "Leave Nancy Pelosi alone! Leave her alone!"

[FrBunny]

Kool = Donny Kerabatsos

😉

[SugarFree]

The best one I ever saw walked up to a after-class meeting of my creative writing seminar in a bar and asked for money. When my professor asked what he wanted it for, he said "Well, sir... I'm gonna go by a beer with it." We all gave him a dollar or more.

[Tony]

The Cabinet is a traditional place to deposit tokens, so it's not quite the same as president or speaker, but I for one appreciated the milestones, and any criticisms I made of General Powell or former Secretary Rice were never race or gender based.

[Harry Belafonte]

"Would that be after celebrating the first black secretaries of state?"

They were just house niggers.

[Neu Mejican]

An example:

Tea partier

"Before we get started, I would like to say something...We condemn any and all racists sentiments that were on display today at the rally and have repeatedly emphasized that racist sentiments are not welcome at our tea parties.

Now, let's talk about why we disagree with the need to inject more government into the health care market."

Guy planning on playing the race card:

Hmmm...

[Tony]

I'm picturing you with smeared eyeliner, in hysterics: "Leave Nancy Pelosi alone! Leave her alone!"

Nancy Pelosi could have your nuts for breakfast. This is one thing you guys can't weasel out of. Attacks on Pelosi are for the most part disgustingly sexist.

[Neu Mejican]

"Well, sir... I'm gonna go by a beer with it." We all gave him a dollar or more.

Suckers.

[FrBunny]

We all gave him a dollar or more.

A friend in NY would immediately turn on any approaching panhandler and ask him/her for a dollar.

[P Brooks]

any criticisms I made of General Powell or former Secretary Rice were never race or gender based.

And we should find this credible, because...

[back at ya]

"Change?"

response

"sure, thanks."

[SugarFree]

Suckers.

Hey! I watched him buy that beer!

Anyway, we have few street people in Lexington so they aren't a constant annoyance.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Nancy Pelosi could have your nuts for breakfast. This is one thing you guys can't weasel out of.

I'll be interested to know what group you're associating me with.

I'm also quite sure Ms. Pelosi has no intentions of placing my nuts in her mouth.

[Pro Libertate]

Pelosi is an imbecile. The Democrats lost fifty IQ points collectively for putting her in the limelight. If she were a man, he'd be. . .an imbecile.

Incidentally, by this logic, the left must totally and absolutely hate women. 'Cause Sarah Palin, well, she's not a dude.

[Pro Libertate]

Art-P.O.G.,

Sorry, but in Tony World, your politics make you a racist.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Pelosi's inhuman lust for younger men. Her intentions towards you may be, well, probably best not described here.

[Tony]

And we should find this credible, because...

There are those of us on this earth who don't have anxiety and/or aren't defensive about being called a racist, because we're not racists.

[Tony]

I agree there were many attacks on Palin from the left that were sexist.

[Neu Mejican]

No one ever accused those who criticized Palin of sexism...that's just silly.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Her intentions towards you may be, well, probably best not described here.

It's too late. If SugarFree sees this, he'll write...OH NO

[Pro Libertate]

I think the actual instances of sexism or racism in the United States, particularly in regards to public figures, are far less common than some seem to believe. People have all kinds of prejudices against the views of people different from them, but that's not the same thing as actually being a hardcore racist, sexist, or other ist.

If I were to call Palin a "bitch", that's not necessarily or even likely sexism. It's just me using a derogatory term that applies to women. I suppose "uppidity-shouldn't-have-the-vote bitch" would be a problem, however.

NM,

Now you know that's not what I meant. The point is that there's no point making accusations of discrimination in this context unless the comments are facially discriminatory. Otherwise, you are just engaging in name-calling and eluding debate on substance. A great deal of the attacks on opponents of the president have been no more than name-calling.

[Sean W. Malone]

Tony is such a self-parody.

It's sexist to say that Nancy Pelosi is ugly (which has no bearing on her immense stupidity - much like how I can legitimately point out that the way Henry Waxman looks like a Vogon has no bearing on his immense stupidity), but it's totally not sexist at all to laud someone for "achieving" X position of authority for the sole reason that they are a woman or other superficial minority.

Frankly, we shouldn't be lauding ANYONE for the positions of authority they weasel their way into... But we especially shouldn't be concerned one way or another what fucking color of skin they have or whether or not they have a vagina.

This is the cosmic joke of liberals... They still see everything as a racial or gender issue, but then try to position themselves on what they think is the "good" side of it.

"Racism bad. Sexism GREAT!"

Right, Tony. Like you don't hate lesbians, just like every other queer does.

[Tomcat1066]

In liberaltopia we'd be celebrating the fact of the first woman speaker and the first black president as great social achievements.

No, in libertopia, we wouldn't give a shit either way because race and gender are irrelevant, only capability...which both lack.

[SugarFree]

Nancy ran her veiny hands over the chocolate expanse of Art's chest. They rasped across his nipples. Art felt himself harden. Nancy grabbed his erection suddenly, the warm and sour smell of Ensure and vodka on her breath. Art was a bar of lead in her hand, hot from the foundry forge. She dug her long finger nails between his scrotum and penis, seeking the spermatic cords. Art groaned and groped blindly for her pendulous breasts. Nancy began masturbating furiously with her other hand, the rings and studs her labia clanking dully.

A spotlight swept over them both as the helicopter landed in the distance.

[Tony]

Minorities in positions of power is evidence of a society changing in a positive direction with regard to minority relations. It's worth celebrating for its own sake. That doesn't mean those people should get a pass on anything.

As a liberal the mere image of a black president and a woman speaker behind him is a little heartwarming. Sue me. I happen to think liberals have done a hell of a lot more for racial and gender equality than all you guys who profess a sort of utopian color and gender blindness.

"One of the most clever panhandlers I have ever encountered took a pre-emptive approach: "May I ask if you're prejudiced? You're not?! Oh, thank ya Jebus!!""

The worst one I ever saw was passive agressive too. He was an Asian man, perhaps Korean. He would slowly walk up to people waiting for their evening commute (I watched him for a while) and lean in real close and very, very quietly ask for money. The goal was to make the mark uncomfortable without being obvious. He scared a few old ladies (they were visibly nervous, giving him money just to make him go away. When he leaned in to me I said, "Get the fuck out of my face, asshole." At that, he leaned in even closer to which I responded, "NOW!"

He moved along.

I've also had the racist card thrown at me. Black panhandler comes up to me (I'm with two friends) and asks, "Would you be nice enough to help me out?" My reply was, "Sorry, but I'm just not that nice." Guy just started screaming racist at me and something about how I was what's wrong with America.

[Nancy Pelosi]

"I'm also quite sure Ms. Pelosi has no intentions of placing my nuts in her mouth."

A girl can dream, cant she?

[Sean W. Malone]

"I happen to think liberals have done a hell of a lot more for racial and gender equality than all you guys who profess a sort of utopian color and gender blindness."

Then you'd happen to be incredibly, embarrassingly and irrevocably wrong.

"Art was a bar of lead in her hand, hot from the foundry forge."

I'M AT WORK DAMN IT!

[P Brooks]

There are those of us on this earth who don't have anxiety and/or aren't defensive about being called a racist, because we're not racists.

That's pretty impressive, even for you.

[JW]

Nancy began masturbating furiously with her other hand, the rings and studs her labia clanking dully.

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.

Kool = Donny Kerabatsos

SHUT THE FUCK UP DONNY!

[P Brooks]

her labia clanking dully.

That there is some creative writin'.

[MattXIV]

Neu,

What I'm recommending is not even answering the charges, but instead changing the topic to the misrepresentations of the people making the charges. The totally reasonable "Yes, there are some conspiracy theorists, racists, and random kooks who have attached themselves to the movement not unlike any other political movement but it's a free country so we can't make them go away or shut up" isn't going to cut it when you've got people who are looking for material to misrepresent. You think that a statement like that before a tea party rally is going to have any impact on the misrepresentations? The people pushing these stories are quite willing to fabricate evidence already - what makes you think that they're going to give any air time to a disclaimer?

You must be familiar with the fact that repeatedly publicly denying a false accusation increases the amount of people who believe it simply by making the accusation seem more "significant" because people are talking about it. That's the tactic that's being employeed here - merely talking about the accusations keeps them in the media cycle even if they are bullshit. Would you recommend that Obama preface his public apperances with a denial of accusations that he wasn't born an American citizen?

[Ravac]

"Art was a bar of lead in her hand, hot from the foundry forge."

So you're telling us Art is soft & misshapen? Because lead is really ductile and has a low melting point.

[Matthew]

Tony,

Folks who believe in, or want to create Utopias, are pretty much the ideological opposite of libertarians.

[SugarFree]

Ravac,

Art is not ductile! He's 100% American man!

[Tony]

Folks who believe in, or want to create Utopias, are pretty much the ideological opposite of libertarians.

Ahh... So it's not that libertopia is the best possible world... it's that it could very well be the worst possible world, but what's important is that people are "free" to enjoy their misery as they see fit.

[Pro Libertate]

. . .pendulous breasts.

Why do you discriminate against the gravity-impaired, SugarFree?

[Kline]

From today's WSJ:

Joan Walsh, editor of the left-wing Web site Salon.com, in a long column called "The Blackening of the President," argues that opposition to Obama is racist--then slips in this acknowledgment that it isn't:

I think most of the president's troubles with white voters have to do with political doubt his enemies have sown about his programs.Well, never mind then!

This makes clear that Obama supporters taking refuge in the charge of racism don't even necessarily believe it themselves. They are doing so out of a combination of desperation, cynicism and habit. Here is a prediction: It's not going to work. The public will not support ObamaCare, and Congress will not enact it, because of white guilt. All the talk about the purported racial motivations of Obama's critics is, to borrow the president's favorite word, a distraction--and those who are trying to sell this atrocious plan cannot afford to be distracted.

That false charges of racism lack the power to influence public opinion is itself an excellent sign for race relations. If this tactic is proved ineffective in such a high-profile, high-stakes debate, people will become far less like to use it, which will be even better for race relations. The current squabbles over race are stupid, but that is their virtue. They illustrate the pointlessness of dwelling on race.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203917304574414923099147990.html

[Sean W. Malone]

"So it's not that libertopia is the best possible world..."

No Tony, it IS the best possible world... It's just that it won't produce a "perfect" world - Which last I checked is the whole point of a Utopia.

[Kline]

From today's WSJ (with proper quote marks):

Joan Walsh, editor of the left-wing Web site Salon.com, in a long column called "The Blackening of the President," argues that opposition to Obama is racist--then slips in this acknowledgment that it isn't:

"I think most of the president's troubles with white voters have to do with political doubt his enemies have sown about his programs."

Well, never mind then!

This makes clear that Obama supporters taking refuge in the charge of racism don't even necessarily believe it themselves. They are doing so out of a combination of desperation, cynicism and habit. Here is a prediction: It's not going to work. The public will not support ObamaCare, and Congress will not enact it, because of white guilt. All the talk about the purported racial motivations of Obama's critics is, to borrow the president's favorite word, a distraction--and those who are trying to sell this atrocious plan cannot afford to be distracted.

That false charges of racism lack the power to influence public opinion is itself an excellent sign for race relations. If this tactic is proved ineffective in such a high-profile, high-stakes debate, people will become far less like to use it, which will be even better for race relations. The current squabbles over race are stupid, but that is their virtue. They illustrate the pointlessness of dwelling on race.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203917304574414923099147990.html

[matthew]

people are "free" to enjoy their misery as they see fit.

You can get rid of the scare quotes, add "or wonderful life" after "misery" and you're almost there.

[Neu Mejican]

Pro Lib,

I didn't see your Palin post.
I was laughing/commenting on Tony's right above mine. I agree with everything you said in the one you addressed to me.

[APORN]

It's gettin' good!

The fourth installment of James O'Keefe and Hannah Giles's undercover report on ACORN is supposed to drop within the hour at BigGovernment.com and will be aired on Glenn Beck at 5:00 p.m. This time the duo took their sting operation to California, where an employee named Theresa confesses that she killed her allegedly abusive husband, and laid some "groundwork" beforehand. Beck aired portions of the video on his radio show today, and Leslie Sherman of The D.C. Writeup wrote it up:

10:54am: As the audio continues, James divulges his aspirations to run for an elected office someday. In enthusiastic response, Theresa says she speaks with Congressman and Senators every day. She names Senator Barbara Boxer and Senator McCleod, and 62nd district Assemblywoman Wilmer Amina Carter. Theresa says that "Eden's" prostitution money would be an asset to him in his quest to become a Senator or Representative.

11:01am: Regarding the legislators that she speaks with, Theresa says that they (most likely herself and their ACORN office) are lobbying these law makers in behalf of health care reform. Apparently, this "non-partisan" organization that gets government money for housing assistance is using tax dollars for health care lobbying.

11:15am: Theresa discloses that her ex-husband abused her and "beat the hell out of" her. She then continues to confess, "I killed him . . . . I shot him." She notes that she had laid some "groundwork" beforehand. When James and Hannah question her as to whether he was abusing her when she killed him, she says that he was not at that moment, but she knew he was going to, she said, "I knew it was coming."

http://www.thedcwriteup.com/2009/09/glenn-beck-airs-new-acorn-video/

[JW]

Art is not ductile! He's 100% American man!

And he means that in the most hetero, non-fey way possible.

[Neu Mejican]

What I'm recommending is not even answering the charges, but instead changing the topic to the misrepresentations of the people making the charges.

That's what I thought.
I guess we'll disagree, but that just seems to encourage the tit for tat off topic chatter.

"You're a racist"
"Don't try to play the race card"
"I'm not, you're racist"
"You're just playing the race card"
"No you're a poopy pants"
"No you're a poopy pants"

And on and on. Your strategy seems to play right into that...

[matthew]

NM,

"You're a racist"
"Don't try to play the race card"
"I'm not, you're racist"

The way to break through that sort of nonsense is to make the accuser define his terms, e.g. How am I a racist? They will have to respond with an example, you can discuss the example and how it is/is not racist. Eventually you will have a discussion of what "racism" is and so on. At least the stupid "am/am not" bullshit is stopped, though.

[Pro Libertate]

NM,

Which of my posts was that, the one on pendulous breasts? I agree, SugarFree is a bigot.

[Neu Mejican]

Pro Lib,

3:34pm

[Neu Mejican]

matthew,

That is one approach. I was advocating for a more proactive approach to avoid the whole discussion.

[Tomcat1066]

"Folks who believe in, or want to create Utopias, are pretty much the ideological opposite of libertarians."

Ahh... So it's not that libertopia is the best possible world... it's that it could very well be the worst possible world, but what's important is that people are "free" to enjoy their misery as they see fit.

Tony, you ignorant slut.

You really are a simple, simple creature with the IQ of a useless sponge, aren't you? Utopia is perfection. It can't happen. However, "libertopia", a libertarian paradise if you will, would simply be a place where people are free to have a great life if they put forth the effort, or to have a shitty life if they don't.

The fact that the idea of "free" is even in quotes in your posts shows you to be the rampant authoritarian statist I've been assuming you were. So, with that said, have a nice day.

Oh yeah, and shut the fuck up Tony! (sorry...SOMEONE had to do it 😉 )

[Tony]

No Tony, it IS the best possible world... It's just that it won't produce a "perfect" world - Which last I checked is the whole point of a Utopia.

Of course this comes with a heaping pile of question begging. Regardless of what the world actually looks like, because it is libertopian it is the best possible world.

[Tony]

The fact that the idea of "free" is even in quotes in your posts shows you to be the rampant authoritarian statist I've been assuming you were.

No, I put it in scare quotes because I happen to agree with those political philosophers who believe freedom should actually mean something.

[Tony]

Sexism bad! Classism good!

[Pro Libertate]

NM,

I know, I was just joshing. Any excuse to use the phrase "pendulous breasts." There, I did it again.

[Sean W. Malone]

NM - is there really any good way to defend yourself from the charge of a thought-crime such as racism?

I mean... Who's to say you didn't rape and kill a girl in 1990?

[matthew]

Tony,

because it is libertopian it is the best possible world.

Look at it this way: libertarian ideas don't result in any particular kind of world.
Good, bad or something else.

They only enable people to make any kind of world they like. Contrast that with most political philosophies that try to impose top-down from a ruling class some particular type of philosophy, a philosophy which some small group of people has determined is the "right" philosophy and which therefore must be imposed on people (for their own good, of course).

[Tony]

Look at it this way: libertarian ideas don't result in any particular kind of world.
Good, bad or something else.

Well, if implemented they must result in some kind of world, and we should be free to make a value judgment on the kind of world it ends up being.

They only enable people to make any kind of world they like.

Supposing, as I think likely, that libertopia actually results in plutocracy, I would argue that most people in this system would find themselves decidedly not free (or at least much less free) to make their world as they see fit.

[Neu Mejican]

Sean W. Malone,

I said it up above. It's pretty tough. However, it is easy to disassociate yourself from those who are wearing their racism on their sleeve. And it is really easy to explicitly denounce racism as a concept.

If the person continues their attack after that, well, not much you can do. But at that point most outside observers will notice that the race card seems not to stick when it is flung at you.

[Neu Mejican]

Pro Lib,

What was the phrase you like again?
Something having to do with the physics of orbs?

[Tomcat1066]

No, I put it in scare quotes because I happen to agree with those political philosophers who believe freedom should actually mean something.

I think it means something to everyone. Definitions aren't the issue.

The issue is that you seem to not realize that freedom has to also mean freedom for shit you don't like.

[Sean W. Malone]

Yeah Neu, but the very essence of libertarian philosophy is anti-collectivism. I denounce serious examples racism whenever I see it, but truth be told I don't see it as a really major driving factor in most of my day-to-day experiences. I certainly don't think that people should have to go around disclaiming that they don't believe or agree with what only a tiny fraction of people actually are saying & doing. If I was at the Washington Tea Party, I have no doubt there were some racists there. But the overwhelming majority of Tea Party people I've talked to, met, or ever heard from suggests that they were probably 98% ordinary folks who are just pissed off. You don't get a 300,000 person crowd out of all crazies. Now... If I was standing around at a protest with 15 people, and 13 of them were spewing racism, I'd probably just leave. But if 13 people are spewing racist bullshit at a protest of a few thousand, it seems like even acknowledging them is giving them more credit than they're due.

[matthew]

tony,
that libertopia actually results in plutocracy, I would argue that most people in this system would find themselves decidedly not free (or at least much less free) to make their world as they see fit.

If the role of gov't is primarily to ensure an open playing field wrt trade, then a plutocracy should not be able exist.

Devil is always in the details, though. Heh.

[matthew]

And I should add, my definition of "plutocracy" is a place where only those with sufficient money have political power. You can be rich and not live in a plutocracy.

[Sean W. Malone]

If *no one* can obtain higher political power than anyone else, that pretty much precludes the formation of plutocracies. This really isn't that hard, I don't think.

[Neu Mejican]

Sean,

But if 13 people are spewing racist bullshit at a protest of a few thousand, it seems like even acknowledging them is giving them more credit than they're due.

I can see that. But if they are really that much of a minority, it isn't too difficulty to ask them to leave. Or to confront them on their behavior. I mean, it just seems politically unwise to do otherwise because it forces you off message.

[Sean W. Malone]

Fair enough, but you may be making a large assumption in thinking that no one actually did tell them to go away or to shut up. Just because it wasn't reported doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

[Neu Mejican]

Sean,

Yeah, ass - u - me and all that.

Of course, as I also said above, one of their main problems is that at least one of the more visible folks promoting their movement is one of the kooks. It will take extra work if they want to counter the association with Glenn Beck's rants.

[libertymike]

kolohe-

My comment was directed at a particlular phenomenon I have observed: certain Reason staff have a tendency to exhibit professional envy. Perhaps one might call it attention envy.

Of course I do not support the warfare state. Just because Beck is a supporter of the warfare state and therefore is philosophically inconsistent/intellectually dishonest does not mean that I am blind to the realities I set forth above.

[Hazel Meade]

I agree there were many attacks on Palin from the left that were sexist.

And I'm sure you loudly spoke out against them, especially in public, among your liberal and progressive friends.

[JB]

These racialists are inspiring racial violence.

If people are going to be called racists for nothing, they are going to start thinking about earning the label.

[Tulpa]

It's over folks. The Bunny-Fighter-in-Chief has certified that criticism of Obama is inherently racist.

ATLANTA - Former President Jimmy Carter said Tuesday that U.S. Rep. Joe Wilson's outburst to President Barack Obama during a speech to Congress last week was an act "based on racism" and rooted in fears of a black president.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Dammit, Jimmy Carter, I'm trying to respect you!

As for SugarFree: thank you! That was awesome!

[anonymous]

"4) Glenn Beck has described Obama's health care plan as intentional "reparations" for slavery."

That is stupid but not racist."

The actual argument may or may not be racist, but surely it's intended to make a certain sort of white person feel as though non-white persons are going to be screwing him over because he is white, thus provoking him into an angry us-vs-them sort of emotional state which is for all intents and purposes racist.

I mean, isn't the mention of the word "reparations" essentially conjuring the specter of the black part of society conspiring with the government to rob the white part of society, on the pretext of justice for the actions of long-dead white people against long-dead black people? He could have just outright said "Obama will take money from white people and give it to black people, because he hates white people." and achieved the same thing (and he has explicitly said that Obama hates white people, FWIW).

[Tony]

And I'm sure you loudly spoke out against them, especially in public, among your liberal and progressive friends.

None of my friends are sexist, so there was no need.

[*]

None of my friends are sexist, so there was no need.

What? You have friends?

[Jonny Scrum-half]

I'm way late to this thread, so I apologize if this was covered in comments above. It seems to me that the argument that the Tea-Party protests are "racist" is best supported by the fact that no such protests occurred during Bush's presidency, which really wasn't a whole lot different from Obama's when it comes to spending.

I'm not sure that I agree that the protests are racist -- I think that the better explanation is that they're politically based (protesting a Democrat, but declining to do so to a Republican). But racism is at least one plausible hypothesis.

[aelhues]

Except that I can almost guarantee that, based on the angst I witnessed last fall over the first misguided funds injection, that if Bush were still president, there would be protests by these same people.

I'm late too, and sad I missed it. Seems as though it was a fun if mostly fruitless thread.

Shut up Tony!

[C33]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42406957@N04/3912840785/in/photostream/

[Frank D.]

The notion that this is some "limited government sentiment" is belied by the fact that none of these malcontents raised a wisp of protest when it was reported that the prior administration was wiretapping Americans' phone lines, or sifting through our emails. Not a whimper when the government forced us to take our shoes off and dispose of all liquids before boarding a plane. Nary a whisper when they took our treasure to occupy the oil fields of Iraq.

Ask yourself, how vocal were these people when Bush, Bernanke and Paulson were bailing out the financial sector? Do they protest the expansion of government into our bedrooms, or marriages, or end of life decisions?

Sure, there are a good number of home-schoolers who distrust all government, but they bit their tongue for most of the last eight years. The "Air America left" recognizes the same lunatic element that hounded Bill Clinton for Vince Foster, only this far right rage is exponentially larger and more vitriolic. Economic hardship is one possible explanation, but the voices fomenting it are economically secure, and the protesters apparently have the means to travel. So how else to explain guns in the streets, which I have never seen before?

[Peter]

I have to agree with Frank D. If the tea-baggers were really about limited government and deficit spending than where were they prior to Obama entering office? No one heard a peep out of them. I don't remember them storming DC when Bush signed the TARP bill or ran up huge amounts of debt for a needless war in Iraq.

One is left with the feeling that they refuse to accept Obama as president and will do anything to delegitimize him. It has little to do with limited government. That's just their superficial rallying cry. Dig deeper and you'll find something else going on.

[Lisa K.]

"it may be time for some on the Air America left to begin considering that limited government sentiment is not automatically a form of sublimated racism."

Hmmm.. that is the most bullshit I have yet read, and very easy to disprove. Do you remember Freedom Works and the Free Republic and the Rural Landowners Association sponsoring a march of 60,000+ wingnuts when Bush and DeLay were cramming down the prescription drug law, or when Bush was turning a surplus into a deficit in record time? No, Neither do I. The only thing that has changed is the color of the president. Case closed. Teabaggers, their sympathizers and their sponsors are a collection of the ugliest, vilest racists on the face of the earth, and they have simply used fiscal issues to put lipstick of the pig of their hatred. Period, end of story.

[Lisa K.]

"Except that I can almost guarantee that, based on the angst I witnessed last fall over the first misguided funds injection, that if Bush were still president, there would be protests by these same people."

Sure, in 2008, when the wingnuts were so filled with rage and humiliation at their party's collapse that the banks was a convenient target. You think it would have generated a peep out of these goons in, say, 2003? I can guarantee you you would not.

[Jean Power]

Whats the southern stradegy?

Lee Atwater:
You start out in 1954 by saying, "Ni--er, ni--er, ni--er." By 1968 you can't say "ni--er"-that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff.
You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites.

And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me-because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Ni--er, ni--er."

How many teabaggers listen to Glen Beck?

"Who needs to learn what here?" asked Beck, adding, "this president has exposed himself, I think, as a guy, over and over and over again, who has a deep-seated hatred for white people, or white culture."

Rush?

Limbaugh said, "We have made progress in civil rights, but now with this. How do you get promoted in a Barack Obama administration, by hating white people, or even saying you do, or that their not good, or whatever. Make white people the new oppressed minority and they are going along with it, because their shutting up. They're moving to the back of the bus. They're saying I can't use that drinking fountain, ok. I can't use that restroom, ok. That's the modern day Republican Party, the equivalent of the Old South, the new oppressed minority."

Rush Limbaugh is the leader of the GOP.
Get a clue.

[C33]

Here's some fascinating footage of the people you're making excuses for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUPMjC9mq5Y

[K]

Matt:
In defending your claim that there were almost no expressions of racial anxiety among the Tea Party marchers, you said on The NewsHour (16 Sept) that "a lot" of them told you they "like" Pres. Obama.

Please elaborate. Did you conclude that more than a very small percentage of the marchers like the President? I was also there, & I can't imagine how you could've gotten that impression. It seemed to me that the dominant feeling toward him was intense fear & dislike. Among other things, the marchers' signage (& message-bearing clothing), comments in fleeting conversation, & responses to mentions of his name from the speakers' stand all led me conclude that he was far from widely liked. Given the kinds of things many of them evidently believe about him, it would've been odd if they didn't dislike him. They aren't, for the most part, swing voters.

[Ron]

OK it's the same old crap i don't hear anyone talking about what the leader of the black panthers has been saying about killing Crackers. But if your white and say something that someone does not like it is Racist.

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