Maybe it's a Little Bit Fun Being an Illegal Alien
As I pointed out in my speech post-write this morning, President Obama claimed last night that forcing healthy young people to buy insurance is critical because otherwise it "costs all the rest of us money," in that "we pay for those people's expensive emergency room visits." At the same time, he insisted–not very convincingly–that "the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally." Any rumors to the contrary, the president asserted, are "false." (Damn those rumor-mongering bastards at the Congressional Research Service!)
Stepping aside from the welfare-for-illegals debate (which is what animates most interest in the topic), my question is this: If the government is coercing John and Jane Healthy to buy insurance so that the rest of us have to pay less money for their emergency room visits, on what planet does the same argument not apply to Juan y Juana Undocumento? (Or, if you prefer the real reason for forced insurance-buying, why should only the documented uninsured cross-subsidize their elders?) If we're really going to penalize twentysomethings for not buying insurance–and recall that as a candidate, back when he opposed Hillary Clinton's mandatory insurance plan, Obama said "To force people to get health insurance, you've got to have a very harsh penalty"–doesn't this mean that illegal residents will essentially enjoy an exemption from state sanction?
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Since they'll still receive care in ERs, yeah, that's exactly what it means.
Does the President contradict himself? Very well then he contradicts himself. (Obama is large, he contains multitudes.)
I brought this up on, of all places, an Anglican blog and was immediately denounced as a racist. It told me all I needed to know.
They want:
1. A blurb in the law saying illegals aren't covered, to keep cost estimates down and to not rile anyone who objects to paying anything to someone here illegally.
2. Leave it unenforced, and interfere w/ any attempt to enforce it, to make sure #1 doesn't actually happen.
Any attempts to point out that this is dishonest will be met with charges of racism and "so you want a child to die because his parents are illegal, you heartless bastard?!?!?". This is a rhetorical device to take their being up front w/ the bill actually doing this, and the costs involved, off the table.
Preemptively shut the fuck up, LoneWacko.
You force young healthy people to buy insurance for the same reason you charge them social security taxes - because they'll almost certainly need it when they're older. The young pay now for the benefits they recieve later on in life. Much like later in life they pay taxes to cover the education benefits they got as children. Circle of life and all that.
Still, if it were up to me, I'd just give everyone a tax funded HSA and wash my hands of the rest. But I'd also have open boarders with automatic citizenship benefits after 7 years.
Fact check from the AP contradicts the CRS:
THE FACTS: The facts back up Obama. The House version of the health care bill explicitly prohibits spending any federal money to help illegal immigrants get health care coverage. Illegal immigrants could buy private health insurance, as many do now, but wouldn't get tax subsidies to help them. Still, Republicans say there are not sufficient citizenship verification requirements to ensure illegal immigrants are excluded from benefits they are not due.
Text from the bill:
HR 3200, SUBTITLE C, SECTION 246
"Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."
Matt, let's not hyperventilate too much here, that's LoneWhacker's job.
no habla ingles
The Supreme Court ruled back in the 70s that the Equal Protection Clause prohibited a state from refusing public education to children in the country illegally. I don't see how the clause wouldn't also apply to Obamacare. They have to know that courts are going to prevent the government from discriminating against Aliens and are just lying about it.
Beyond that, even if you could exclude illegals, you are left with the paradox of young healthy Americans facing harsh penalities for not ponying up and subsidizing the healthcare system while illegals walk away scott free free to game the system by not paying into it and then demand care if they ever get sick.
Further, there is no way to force illegals to buy health insurance. They are here illegally. How do you enforce such a provision?
You force young healthy people to buy insurance for the same reason you charge them social security taxes - because they'll almost certainly need it when they're older. The young pay now for the benefits they recieve later on in life. Much like later in life they pay taxes to cover the education benefits they got as children. Circle of life and all that.
So....tax them while they're young for bennies the get when older, and tax them while they're older for bennies they got when they were young.
Why not just let them pay for what they get at any given age themselves?
Please, people, Obamessiah does not lie. Read his words: "the reforms I'm proposing here would not apply to those who are here illegally." Cong. Wilson is wrong. Such people would not be forced to buy healthcare; they would continue to receive taxpayer-paid care in the emergency room just like they do today. No reform for you! Next!
In the implicit mandate-free health care provided to illegal immigrants that Obama is intentionally obscuring is the way forward on health care reform.
Not insuring those who either don't want or can't afford insurance, and treating them in ERs as needed, costs vastly less than the subsidies that a government mandate would require.
Health care of the poor without health insurance of the poor is not only possible: it is cheaper.
John Thacker | September 10, 2009, 3:22pm | #
Does the President contradict himself? Very well then he contradicts himself. (Obama is large, he contains multitudes.)
My lawyer however believes in residuals, so we'll be needing a check from you, cutey.
Hey, if Obama is promising not to cover illegals, and anyone who opposes covering illegals is heartless, vicious, and a racist, then isn't Obama a heartless racist bastard?
My lawyer believes in the public domain for poems published (depending on how you want to count small tweaks) between 1855 and 1867.
No, you force young healthy people to buy insurance because if you force insurers to cover everyone and charge the same rate regardless of previous conditions (guaranteed issue and community rating, both in the bill), then young people won't buy insurance until they get sick, as in NY.
on what planet does the same argument not apply to Juan y Juana Undocumento?
I don't know, but I just watched the David Shuster/Tamron Hall freakfest on MSNBC, and the hosts were beside themselves that their Republican guest/ambushee would not denounce Joe Wilson's horrific crime last night against Dear Leader. The guest wouldn't admit that Wilson was "wrong"! Tamron got her scientifically enhanced tits in a wringer, and Shuster looked like he would vomit. Compelling TV, America. Look for Chris Matthews to call for an investigation, and Ed Schultz to declare jihad against the right-wing infidels.
Public domain? Ha! We're killing it the next session of Congress.
let's not hyperventilate too much here
Who's hyperventilating? I said Obama's pledge was "not very convincing," not "a horrible lie," or "a dangerous threat to the country." The AP "debunk" on that takes the existence of that language in the as-yet non-existent bill at face value, without factoring in the (utter absence of) enforcement mechanism.
And at any rate, my point is that both the stated and unstated logic of insuring young citizens surely should apply to illegal aliens as well.
And at any rate, my point is that both the stated and unstated logic of insuring young citizens surely should apply to illegal aliens as well.
And my point is the reverse.
If we're really going to penalize twentysomethings for not buying insurance
Go to ehealthinsurance.com and get health insurance quotes for a twenty-something.
The quote for IL residents is reasonable even for a cashier making $300 a week. The quote for a 20-something NY or MA resident making the same wage is outrageous.
In other words, presently some states punish 20-somethings FOR buying health insurance. So they don't buy it.
Until the president stops his theoretical musings of what the market is like and starts talking about the reality of today's market, he can shove ANY IDEA HE HAS up his ass.
Essentially he wants insurance without risk-pricing. How did mortgages without risk-pricing turn out?
Hard to believe someone could be denser than Dubya, but Obama sure is.
You lie, Welch!
The point is to implement it saying it doesn't cover illegals then, when the USSC cites precedent and rules that provision unconstitutional, you shrug your shoulders and say your hands are tied. Of course you knew all along what was going to happen, but it takes actors to run this kabuki show, ya know.
Also, I don't see how it is constitutional to force people to buy health insurance. They get around the issue with auto insurance by using the old "you are using public roads so driving is a priviledge" dodge. Indeed, my grandfather had pickups he never used anywhere but his ranch and thus never bothered to register or insure them.
But this is different. You can't avoid this requirement. I don't think the courts will go for it.
Now I understand, those folks not paying taxes for health insurance can then work cheaper (and take our jobs) and still have the same take home pay as real Americans. (just helping the Loneone).
On Planet Liar where that little bitch liar Obama and all his ilk live.
And at any rate, my point is that both the stated and unstated logic of insuring young citizens surely should apply to illegal aliens as well.
???
I suppose it does, if we want to be silly. This is a bit like noting that criminals are supposed to declare and pay taxes on their "income".
Put another way, if we find these illegals, tax them and force insurance upon them, shouldn't we just grant them citizenship already? 🙂
Also, I don't see how it is constitutional to force people to buy health insurance. They get around the issue with auto insurance by using the old "you are using public roads so driving is a priviledge" dodge.
AFAIK, those requirements are all at the state level, thus, depending on your state Constitution, perfectly constitutional. They are also protective of third parties, not the insured, against acts of the driver. I'm not a big fan of mandatory liability, but I can understand it.
Mandatory federal health care, however, is something completely different.
"Mandatory federal health care, however, is something completely different."
It is saying you must pay for your healthcare via insurance rather than out of pocket.
"Maybe it's a Little Bit Fun Being an Illegal Alien"
Not always:
I thought I'd heard every possible charge about corruption at ACORN, a feisty, union-backed activist group that became infamous last year when it was investigated for voter registration fraud in 15 states. Just yesterday, 11 ACORN workers were accused by Florida prosecutors of falsifying information on some 900 voter registration forms.
But this morning brings a Fox News report that ACORN officials in Baltimore offered to help get a housing loan and falsify tax documents for a proposed house of prostitution that would employ underage girls from El Salvador. The episode was captured on tape by an undercover filmmaker, James O'Keefe, who wanted to see just how far ACORN would go. Watching the tape -- which can be seen at Biggovernment.com -- is a creepy experience. ACORN itself has told Fox News the episode represents "gotcha journalism" but wouldn't comment further until it sees the full tape.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203440104574404962227305566.html
Video here:
http://www.biggovernment.com/2009/09/10/chaos-for-glory/
Well, we could be smart like Texas and other states that use sales taxes and property taxes, which illegals pay. (The latter because they mostly rent, and property tax gets passed on as rent.)
Barack Obama's America is a land in which undocumented workers would be forced into back-alley health care clinics.
Mandatory federal health care, however, is something completely different.
Hey, you never know. You could have a massive, head-on collision with someone on the sidewalk one day.
Not misunderstand me please, but IF we really did have to have socialized health care...I would much prefer that the government just write checks for all health care bills and tax us accordingly(or run up even bigger deficits) instead of making everyone "buy" health "insurance"? this seems like the biggest scam ever. All the bad things from socialism(more rationing, more red tape etc) with none of the benefits...insurance companies can force us to pay?! wtf? democrats are liking this idea? Tony?
Whoa...I have that 12-inch "Illegal Alien" single someplace. Second most embarrassing Genesis moment ever (after "Pigeons").
Gabe is right.
The way illegal immigrants are handled today should be the freaking model for health care provision for the poor.
The entirety of uncompensated health care in the US amounts to $40 billion per year. That is a paltry 2% of the $2+ trillion spent on health care in the US.
If 40-blah-blah million uninsured, including or not including 12 million illegal residents, costs 2% of the total health care expenditure year in and year out, Congress should count its blessings, work to better compensate the hospitals that suffer the worst of the uncompensated care, and stop trying to mandate that people have insurance!
EMTALA
"If we're really going to penalize twentysomethings for not buying insurance .... doesn't this mean that illegal residents will essentially enjoy an exemption from state sanction?"
There is indeed a black market, or underground economy involving illegal aliens, heavily merged with the drug trade. There is also a rapidly growing informal economy among supposedly "progressive" hipsters, that involves barter mechanisms such as labor trading, which avoids both taxation and regulation since no cash is involved. (Ironically, considering these people are generally the first people to demand more federal involvement in everyone else's economic lives.) The growing number of illegal aliens, as well as the growth of mechanisms like craigslist, has allowed these two informal markets to merge and strengthen to an extent.
Also, there is already fee-for-service medical clinics in my area such as Concentra, that largely cater to illegal aliens. They are surprisingly cheap, and have a clear sign over the desk listing prices for various procedures. I.e. "Basic Doctor's Visit: $129", "Advanced Examination: $239" etc.
I'm confused. If the gubmint forces someone to buy something it has to force someone to sell it to you. How is the price set in this arrangement?
Tacos are more expensive than posted. Just post the real price to those interested with an asterisk.
Let us do the arithmatic. We all learn arithmatic at a you age. Just don't call it math. People get scared.
at a...YOUNG...age
Why should health insurers care whether someone's here legally or not? Private insurance doesn't give a rat's ass if you're a citizen. Why should the government care?
The public option will finance itself exclusively through premiums. As long as someone is paying their premiums, they're part of the solution.
Undocumented migrants tend to skew young and healthy. Insurers love young healthy people who pay their premiums, because they balance out the old sick people who cost all the money.
Migrants are also more likely to leave before they get to the inevitable old and expensive phase of life. So, premium-paying migrants can help make everyone's insurance cheaper.
The alternative is keep our ERs clogged with charity cases that drive up the price of care for insured people.
Remind me again what the point of excluding migrants is, other than cutting off our nose to spite our face?
Also, there is already fee-for-service medical clinics in my area such as Concentra, that largely cater to illegal aliens. They are surprisingly cheap, and have a clear sign over the desk listing prices for various procedures. I.e. "Basic Doctor's Visit: $129", "Advanced Examination: $239" etc.
This sounds like a fascinating topic for a feature article! Where is your area, Hazel Meade? (You can send me an e-mail if you prefer.)
Private insurance doesn't give a rat's ass if you're a citizen. Why should the government care?
You answer that question yourself Lindsay.
As long as someone is paying their premiums
Why should American workers subsidize social welfare programs for labor that has a competitive advantage over them--like not having to pay the "premiums"
Why not exclude sex offenders from public heqalth benefits?
Why not deport the illegal aliens when they get sick?
SIV: As long as people are paying their own premiums, they are part of the solution. According to Shikha Dalmia of the Reason Foundation, two thirds of undocumented migrants (8 million people) already pay Social Security, Medicare, and personal income taxes.
Why not let them buy into the public option if they want? The public option will finance itself through premiums, like any private insurance. Americans would not be subsidizing migrants who paid into the system.
Better to have people insured than uninsured. If they're insured, they're paying their own way. If they're uninsured and they get sick, we pay for them. Which would you prefer?
Matt, I am in Tucson, Arizona. Hence, lots of illegals around.
Incidentally, here's Concentra's urgent care website:
http://www.concentraurgentcare.com/
Steal my idea. Seriously. This afternoon I was fantasizing about going aroudn and interviewing them to find out what effect health insurance reform would have on their business.
Beyond that, even if you could exclude illegals, you are left with the paradox of young healthy Americans facing harsh penalities for not ponying up and subsidizing the healthcare system while illegals walk away scott free free to game the system by not paying into it and then demand care if they ever get sick.
Don't worry, soon the "progressives" will figure out that the moral thing to do is to force the illegals to buy insurance, but then deny them care anyway.
Addendum:
I don't know for sure that Concentra caters mostly to illegals. It just seemed likely given the way the prices are posted over the desk, and the number of Hispanic looking people in the lobby. To be honest, I was surprised places like this even existed. I had no idea you could walk into an urgent care clinic anywhere in the country and know exactly how much you are going to be charged from a sign on the wall.
Why not let them buy into the public option if they want? The public option will finance itself through premiums, like any private insurance. Americans would not be subsidizing migrants who paid into the system.
I can't tell whether you're being funny or whether you just don't know: Poor consumers -- and by poor, Congress means 300% to 400% of the poverty line -- will receive subsidies to purchase their mandated health insurance.
Since in reality or perception the great majority of illegal immigrants would fall into this category, they of course are not eligible for that targeted welfare.
On what planet do John and Jane Healthy live? Are they some kind of statistical creation? John never gets injured at the gym and Jane never gets pregnant? And if she does, there are never complications? Are John and Jane leave their twenties and enter their thirties, are they going to stay "Healthy"?
A basic principle of any welfare system is that the young (and healthy) right now pay for the aged in good faith that, when they are old (and/or sick), the young(and healthy) will continue to do the same.
A basic principle of any welfare system is that only people who cannot afford to take care of themselves participate.
Otherwise you get truly hellish programs like Social Security and Medicare, where poor 18-year-olds have 15% of their income taken away and given to millionaires.
The Right Wing 'Christians' feel that it would be perfectly OK with them and their Jesus to step over the diseased bodies of illegal aliens in the streets of America. (I think the last time I looked in The Bible, it was page 753 that had a picture of The Lord and Savior, sneering and cursing at a pile of the sick and blaming them for their illnesses.) Personally, I would prefer not to have to have all that. But let's all pretend that closing our eyes and sticking our fingers in our ears and wishing a problem had a simple solution (I believe that is on page 1 of The Bible)is the grown-up way to deal with any problem. After all, coat-hanger abortions never really happened, did they?
I'm honestly not sure of the page numbers referenced here. Bill O'Reilly would be happy to point those out for us. Please address any questions you have on this post to him. Just be sure to remind him that in the real Christian world, the one with a Jesus in it, that you can hold the views he does or you can call yourself a Christian, but you cannot do both and be taken seriously.
Fake Spanish isn't cute. The word you're looking for is "indocumentado".
One of my pet peeves about Reason is their linking to articles (generally from scrupulous sources like the Washington Times) interpreting certain documents, and not the documents themselves. Just because FAIR and the Washington Examiner say the CRS says a certain thing doesn't make it so. Did you read that CRS report, Matt?
(Forgive me if this has been covered in this lively thread already)
The CRS report does indeed say, as quoted by the WE: "H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens - whether legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently - participating in the Exchange"
But so what? Nothing is barring illegals from BUYING insurance on the exchange, just like nothing is barring them from buying it on the private market now. What changes? If there's a public option included, they'll be able to pay for that as well. Nothing changes. I guess it's technically true that since nothing is specifically barring illegals from participating, you could say "Obamacare will cover illegals ZOMFG!" but they'll be paying for insurance just like they do now! What most of these scare tactics are about (the chain emails and such) are that Obamacare will be showering illegals in our hard-earned tax dollars, which isn't true.
Back to the CRS report, on the subsidies (said tax dollars) that can be applied for to help pay for insurance:
"Some have expressed concerns that since H.R. 3200 does not contain a mechanism to verify
immigration status, the prohibitions on certain noncitizens (e.g, nonimmigrants and unauthorized aliens) receiving the credits may not be enforced. However, others note that under ?142(a)(3) of the bill, it is the responsibility of the Health Choices Commissioner (Commissioner) to administer the "individual affordability credits under subtitle C of title II, including determination of eligibility for such credits." Thus, it appears, absent of a provision in the bill specifying the verification procedure, that the Commissioner would be responsible for determining a mechanism to verify the eligibility of noncitizens for the credits."
So there is oversight in place. There is verification. What John said earlier about the Dems being confident the courts would bar them from excluding illegals is definitely interesting, but as you can see above, there is someone tasked with the responsibility of weeding out fraudulent (not only illegals can commit fraud) applications for subsidies. Aside from the commissioner, presumably in order to apply for these subsidies you'll have to produce a SS#, or be subject to further scrutiny from the IRS if the benefits come in the form of a tax credit.
So the best argument the Joe Wilson supporters can make amounts to:
"There are possible loopholes through which illegals - along with anyone else, but ignore them for whatever reason - can commit fraud. And while there are protections in place against fraud, they are not sufficient IMHO, and not sufficiently targeting illegals specifically. Therefore, Obama and the Democrats want to give free money to illegals. QED."
Not convincing.
Also, you have to ignore sec. 261 or imply that it's just a cover for Obama's dastardly plans (John's argument is the best angle I've heard on this point). Plus you have to ignore the inconvenient fact that there are many ways through which illegals - along with anyone else who doesn't have insurance for whatever reason - can get taxpayer-funded care right now, without even having to commit fraud! Bonus!
"...on what planet does the same argument not apply to Juan y Juana Undocumento? "
Leaving aside the policy argument in your post, the above line really detracts from the point you are trying to make. There are reasoned debates to be made about this issue regarding health care policy and illegal immigration. Trotting out fake spanish is just absurd. Why not go ahead and call them El Frito Banditos?
Fake Spanish isn't cute. And what Matt Steinglass said over at True/Slant was mainly correct: you shouldn't have gone there.
It's grating and obnoxious and bordering on the stereoytpical, and as a Latina (don't worry folks! I've got my papers and everything!) I found it to be a cheap shot.
...oh yeah, not just cheap, sort of offensive too.
This debate on health care is all hand-waving. No hospital will turn away a sick person because of insurance issues or immigration status. That is revolting.
What happens though, is that this is charity care and it is expensive and poorly managed and we all end up paying for it.
The government already pays for almost all of the sickest Americans (such as those on dialysis, the lifelong care of extremely low birthweight infants).
We already have very bad socialized medicine since everyone pays for this. It is redundant and some people have found a way to profit from it.
"Juan y Juana Undocumento"
If you know of a pair of similarly-named but male/female illegal aliens, why haven't you called the authorities before they mate and create an anchor baby?
Or is this just your cute generic name for undocumented workers?
It's huge fun being illegal. No secret thee.