The Pit of the Pendulum, or How Republicans Can Be Gaining During a Conservative Civil War
We appear to be living through an apparently paradoxical, though easily explainable, political moment. All signs are pointing preliminarily to a Republican resurgence in the 2010 elections, even as a growing number of political thinkers–many of them on the right–conclude that conservatism as we know it is verging on a self-inflicted death.
How can that be? Easy: We have an electoral system rigged to the rafters by a two party cartel. Voters careen between tossing out the Montagues and Capulets, and continue their mass defection to the tribe called "Independents," but onerous ballot-access rules and other legal/cultural artifacts of political polarity channel all that permanent dissatisfaction into pushes on a pendulum. Since, unlike in every other sector of the economy, the business of politics has a guaranteed (and growing!) revenue stream, parties in the midst of an identity crisis don't need to sort it out to gain seats in the House of Representatives; they just need the opposing gang to stumble. Weebles wobble but they don't fall down.
Some recent examples from those who believe the battle for the conservative soul requires distancing the party from birthers and their enablers:
Patrick Ruffini: "Can We Have Buckley Back?"
As a pretty down-the-line conservative, I don't believe I am alone in noting with disappointment the trivialization, excessive sloganeering, and pettiness that has overtaken the movement of late. In "The Joe the Plumberization of the GOP," I argued that conservatives have grown too comfortable with wearing scorn as a badge of honor, content to play sarcastic second fiddle to the dominant culture of academia and Hollywood with second-rate knock-off institutions. A side effect of this has been a tendency to accept conspiracy nuts as a slightly cranky edge case within the broad continuum of conservatism, rather than as a threat to the movement itself.
Jon Henke: "Organizing Against WorldNetDaily":
In the 1960's, William F. Buckley denounced the John Birch Society leadership for being "so far removed from common sense" and later said "We cannot allow the emblem of irresponsibility to attach to the conservative banner." […]
No respectable organization should support the kind of fringe idiocy that WND peddles. Those who do are not respectable.
Bruce Bartlett: "Are the Birthers the Next Black Panthers?"
I've been thinking latetly that onservative elites are reaching a moment similar to that which confronted liberal elites in the late 1960s. At first they saw the rise of SDS, the Black Panthers and other extreme left groups as cannon fodder that could be used to achieve liberal goals. […] But one day liberals realized that the extremists couldn't be controlled and threatened anarchy. I read somewhere that the seminal event was when student radicals threatened to burn the Harvard library. This sort of thing led to the rise of neoconservatism (not the foreign policy variety, but the original one). I think conservative elites today see the teabaggers, birthers and other kooks as cannon fodder for larger conservative goals the same way liberals originally saw student radicals in the 1960s. I think one day soon something like the Harvard library burning is going to make conservatives realize that these people present more of a threat than a tool for advancing conservative goals. I hope it doesn't involve an assassination or Oklahoma City-type event. But you can't pour fuel on the fires of peoples' emotions the way Glenn Beck does on a daily basis without getting an explosion at some point.
As someone with no dog in that hunt, I'm more interested in the activities of people who are actually in (or allied with) power. But I wish most of all that there were easier legal mechanisms to assist the main two parties in their periodic flirtations with self-destruction.
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"But I wish most of all that there were easier legal mechanisms to assist the main two parties in their periodic flirtations with self-destruction."
HA! Well said, Welch.
Bartlett's an idiot. Can't he see that the 60's radicals are running the government? He may get his jollies calling tax protesters teabaggers, but marginalizing the heart of conservatism shows he has no clue.
Once again confirmation that we are in desperate need of a viable third, fourth, and fifth,etc,political party in this country. One of the best things we can do to make this possible is to enact electoral reform, ala the "European" model . . . I do not judge the chances of that happening as being very likely, as both parties will collude with one another to make certain that any move in that direction is squashed.
"I think conservative elites today see the teabaggers, birthers and other kooks as cannon fodder for larger conservative goals the same way liberals originally saw student radicals in the 1960s."
Bruce Bartlett and those like him are assholes. The "conservative leaders" are the ones who gave us No Child Left Behind, Compassionate Conservatism, the Bush Deficits, the medicare drug benefit, and a huge expansion of government despite Republican control of all three branches of government for more than two years for the first time in over 50 years.
Any person who uses the term "teabaggers" is an elitist asshole who ought not to be taken seriously. Bartletts and the Wills and the rest of the beltway GOP has managed to completely fuck up and piss away any moral or political credibility the GOP had. Now that ordinary people who don't normally care enough to do anything, take matters into their own hands and showing up at Townhalls shitheads like Bartlett call them Teabaggers. Fuck him.
The divisions of this country are not about left and right so much anymore. They are about the elitist assholes who have managed to spend the country in the ground versus the great unwashed, uncultured working masses who are expected to pay for it. It is pretty obvious which side fucks like Bartlett are on.
"I argued that conservatives have grown too comfortable with wearing scorn as a badge of honor, content to play sarcastic second fiddle to the dominant culture of academia and Hollywood with second-rate knock-off institutions."
So clearly the proper response is to go suck ass with Hollywood and academica and sell them our own ropes.
They are about the elitist assholes who have managed to spend the country in the ground versus the great unwashed, uncultured working masses who are expected to pay for it.
John, the Sarah Palin lovers and the Mike Huckabee lovers are the ones who ruined the GOP because they don't really believe in limiting spending. All they believe in is hating liberals. That's it.
You have this fantasy in your head that the GOP went wrong because it lost touch with its "unwashed" base, when really the opposite is true. The small government faction in the GOP was always a thin veneer painted over a rusty hulk of atavistic nationalism and religious extremism, and those two latter groups have no real problem with government spending as long as they can convince themselves that the idiot king signing the checks is some kind of avatar of Christ dressed up a in flight jacket. The "unwashed" are the problem.
"You have this fantasy in your head that the GOP went wrong because it lost touch with its "unwashed" base, when really the opposite is true. The small government faction in the GOP was always a thin veneer painted over a rusty hulk of atavistic nationalism and religious extremism, and those two latter groups have no real problem with government spending as long as they can convince themselves that the idiot king signing the checks is some kind of avatar of Christ dressed up a in flight jacket. The "unwashed" are the problem."
The unwashed are the country. If you don't like it too fucking bad. The unwashed never asked for any of that shit. It was the politicians and the activists who demanded that the government engage in social engineering.
The problem is that politics has become for people like you not an exercise in sollutions but an excuse to be an asshole and engage in cultural elitism. The teaparty movement is the first no kidding actual grass roots movement for small government maybe ever. The response by people who ought to welcome it instead heap scorn on it because the people who do it are not the cool enough. In the end, people like you would rather be ruled by socialists who went to the right schools and say the right things and have something to bitch about then see your policies actually realized by people you find distasteful.
Fluffy that was just awesome! I mean what else is there to say after that thread winner.
So when do we start bashing the L.P.?
The small government faction in the GOP was always a thin veneer painted over a rusty hulk of atavistic nationalism and religious extremism, and those two latter groups have no real problem with government spending as long as they can convince themselves that the idiot king signing the checks is some kind of avatar of Christ dressed up a in flight jacket. The "unwashed" are the problem."
that is so mindnumbly stupid and insulting that is beneath response. My advice to you is go join the Democratic party. Clearly being a bigot and an elitist is more important to you than anything else. The taxes and the debt really are not that bad.
The answer fluffy is to take you and every leftist like you and stomp you into a greesie spot. Because you are leftist. You are worse than Obama. At least Obama is honest. I don't care how much you mouth about freedom and markets. You either believe that people have a right to have a say in their government and believe or you don't. If you don't and think that everyone who doesn't measure up needs to shut up and take it up the ass because you and people like you know beter, then you are a leftist authoritarian fuck.
OK. I'll start. The Libertarian Party is full of non-principled sell-outs who need to tone back the radicalism and make common ground with friends on the left and right and throw out all the anarchists, mini-archists, statists, objectivists and other humans.
(And by the way, I agree with Fluffy. But I'm an admitted elitist.)
"spambot | September 4, 2009, 10:06am | #
Fluffy that was just awesome! I mean what else is there to say after that thread winner."
What else? That Fluffy is a bigoted hypocrite who would rather be assfucked by the elite than give up his sense of superiority. Don't worry fluffy the Barletts of the world will resect you and think you are cool as they compromise with the Leftists and sell you out.
The fact is, the GOP is comprised of three factions, and the small government faction has been shrinking for years. There is some merit to the claim that a large number of the people mad now didn't care when Bush & Co. were spending like crazy on basically socialist policies.
John
Don't you think the GOP could work a little harder to not stick it to anyone who has any intellectual leanings? I get what you are saying, but essentially their message has been "hey fancy book-reading guy, FUCK YOU" for decades. It need not be this way, conservatism historically has often been quite intellectual and, dare I say, "elitist."
Newsflash: Bruce Bartlett is no longer a conservative, if he ever was. And "prelimarily" should be a word, but isn't.
non-principled sell-outs who need to tone back the radicalism
You lost me there CN. Aren't those opposites?
As for the term: teabaggers - it's pissed me off from the beginning. A group of concerned people protesting against big, expensive government is a thing worthy of scorn? Whether you agree or not, using a term like "teabagger" just shows you to be an elitist, idiotic piece of filth.
(And by the way, I agree with Fluffy. But I'm an admitted elitist.)
I am to. I just look down my nose at a different group of people than most elitists. I think the media and the political class and pretty much the entire intellectual class of this country is populated by uneducated morons and idiot sons. Our culture and elite institutions are rotten to the core and rancid with Socialism and other assorted foolishness. When members of that rotten stinking group try to look down on the people in the country who actually do the productive things and keep the country running, it drives me over the edge.
"The answer fluffy is to take you and every leftist like you and stomp you into a greesie spot. Because you are leftist."
John, you just crossed the border of CrazyTown with that one.
Fluffy is the same guy who argued with me that it would be wrong to force a doctor to treat a dying man at the doctor's feet. He's hardly a leftist. I know, because I play one on TV (well, here on H&R).
Fluffy is proven wrong by the fact that populist Huckaby lost the nomination. Palin spoke hick, but her record was never populism.
Fluffy,
The "unwashed" were already protesting the bailouts when they were being pushed by GWB. True, I doubt most conservatives are as extreme in their hatred of govt spending as libertarians are, but to paint them as mindlessly following "an avatar of Jesus in a flight suit" is just wrong.
Fixed the misspelling; thanks Tulpa.
All they believe in is hating liberals. That's it.
Other than hating conservatives also, that's all I believe in. What of it?
Palin's "record" is self promotion.
"John
Don't you think the GOP could work a little harder to not stick it to anyone who has any intellectual leanings? I get what you are saying, but essentially their message has been "hey fancy book-reading guy, FUCK YOU" for decades. It need not be this way, conservatism historically has often been quite intellectual and, dare I say, "elitist."
That is a good question. But think about this from a Conservative's perspective. Well over 90% of the academics in this country are committed Leftists. The entire culture of art is dominated by the Left. So on the one hand; it seems very anti-intellectual to tell the faculty of say Harvard to fuck off. Yet, at least from a Conservative perspective, the faculty of Harvard is utter fools who believe incredibly foolish things.
Further, there is a case for practical knowledge and experience. I would rather have a President regardless of party who has ran a business or commanded an infantry company or been a practicing doctor or engineer than one who was editor of the Harvard Law Review and spent his life in the world of political activism and academia.
The problem is how do you make that point without sounding like you don't value knowledge and learning. Granted, that point needs to be made better.
that is so mindnumbly stupid and insulting that is beneath response.
Yet somehow you found it necessary to respond anyway, thus invalidating your own premise. But extra points for a frothy ungrammatical rant which only reinforces Fluffy's point about your sort of conservative.
Fluffy, you totally nailed it about atavistic nationalism and religious extremism. Conservatism will only regain ascendancy once it clearly distances itself from birthers, Palindrones, etc.
"What else? That Fluffy is a bigoted hypocrite who would rather be assfucked by the elite than give up his sense of superiority. Don't worry fluffy the Barletts of the world will resect you and think you are cool as they compromise with the Leftists and sell you out."
Sorry John, Fluffy's comments were not elitist but a wakeup call to Republicans that limited government and not fring kooky stuff are the key to winning the disenfranchised Independents back. Sadly that does not seem to be the way they are going. They are doubling down on Palin and Huckabee types. So if we are stuck with 4 more years of Obama that will be as much of a reason as anyone/thing else.
It is not elitist to point out when lunatics are running the asylum.
"John, you just crossed the border of CrazyTown with that one.
Fluffy is the same guy who argued with me that it would be wrong to force a doctor to treat a dying man at the doctor's feet. He's hardly a leftist. I know, because I play one on TV (well, here on H&R)."
He is not a "leftist" true. But I think that he has leftist tendencies in his seeming love of the vangaurd elite to lead us to the promise land.
Welcome to the elitist corner Not Tony!
"Fluffy, you totally nailed it about atavistic nationalism and religious extremism. Conservatism will only regain ascendancy once it clearly distances itself from birthers, Palindrones, etc."
Who is a birther? They are fringe nuts. They are no bigger problem for the GOP than the truthers are to the Dems. There will always be nuts out there. Birthers are not the issue.
As far as Palin goes, she appealed to a lot of people. Rather than sitting around being assholes thinking how much smarter we are than her, why not consider how it is she appealed to those people? The fluffy method of sitting around telling 40% of the electorate that they are a bunch of ignorant, Jesus loving hillbillies who need to shut up and stop expecting to have any roll in their government is not going to get you anywhere.
If Fluffy had painted liberals with a broad brush in the way (s)he did to conservatives in that post, all the usual suspects would be up in arms.
I'm all for poxing both houses, but constantly trying to find fault with any party that's actually in a position to influence politics (as opposed to the LP, for instance) is a perfect recipe for never getting the change you want to occur.
Listening to the comments above, I really think we are talking past the root of the problem. IMHO the size, scope and intrusion of government into every aspect of our lives is the issue. Would anyone spend all this time, money and energy trying to influence (or bitch about) the political process if the scope of government was essentially to "patch potholes".
Yeah, what John said.
Citizen Nothing makes a case for building a libertarian caucus within the Republican Party and, essentially, abandoning the LP. But if all the pragmatic libertarians join the GOP (see how far you get with obtaining power), there will still be a need for a principled and radical LP always challenging the half-way measures and tepid compromises of the realists.
John
It was not always so that academe and the art world was so leftist. I think some blame falls upon the Right for this.
Also, I guess it is popular to define leftism as deference to elites, but that strikes me as wrong. Conservatives defer to elites too, just different elites (business, military, church). In fact, a big theme in intellectual conservative thought (Kirk, Burke, etc.) is deference to traditional authority.
The fluffy theory is that I fail to see what telling off the base is going to do for the GOP. If all conservatives are ignorant, religious government lovers, then it seems to me that the Dems could take their votes pretty easily. I mean seriously, doesn't Jesus tell us to take care of the poor and render unto Caesar? The Dems could very easily throw the Gays and the urban elite Fluffy is so in love with over the side and take the great unwashed he despises so much and end up with a real permanent big government majority. In case you haven't noticed, Blacks and Hispanics go to church to and are very culturally conservatives. If you want to make the small government cause, no non-urban elites allowed, then you might as well admit you are going to be losing every election.
"It was not always so that academe and the art world was so leftist. I think some blame falls upon the Right for this."
Yes, but some of it is self selection. Conservatives tend to go into business or the military. And Leftist ideas have always appealed to intellectuals. We have also reached a tipping point where it is very hard to be a conservative academic. You just don't get tenure if you are a vocal rightwing person. This, I think even from a leftist perspective is a bad thing. You don't help yourself wiping out your critics. It just makes you complacent.
He is not a "leftist" true. But I think that he has leftist tendencies in his seeming love of the vangaurd elite to lead us to the promise land.
I can find nothing in Fluffy's post that smacks of elitism. Because one realizes that the vast majority of people are ignorant of political, moral and economic issues, and merely follow their "group" -albeit, sometimes with some disagreement -does not mean that one wishes to have some "elite" collective controlling society.
My own view is that this is the very reason why government must be constrained to the smallest level possible, because I understand that my fellow fool loves to use the power of government to impose his/her values on me.
I love it: it's now documented, indisputable fact that we currently have 9/11 "Truther" Bay Area Communists with official titles in the White House influencing legislation and bending the ear of the President of the United States, but it's the Republicans that have the problem with kooks and extremists. Uh-huh.
And John, I agree with you that to a large extent the current political divide is as much between elitists and regular citizens as it is between left and right. A lot of ordinary liberal people were as opposed to the TARP bailout as grass-roots conservatives were.
I expect calling people names like "teabaggers" from lowly gutter slime like Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow, but I'm disappointed when I hear that stuff from someone like Bruce Bartlett. It should be beneath his dignity to stoop to that level.
"My own view is that this is the very reason why government must be constrained to the smallest level possible, because I understand that my fellow fool loves to use the power of government to impose his/her values on me."
How do you plan to get your fellow fool to buy into your view of limited government if the first words out of your mouth are what a fool he is? Or do you plan to limit government by force?
"We have also reached a tipping point where it is very hard to be a conservative academic."
I'll grant you this, but I really think if the GOP nominated more intellectual sounding folks this might be different. I don't think academe is leftist for shits and giggles sake, the GOP has kind of courted anti-intellectualism, at least in appearance if not substance, for decades. It was not always so; there was a time when William Jennings Bryan, the Jerry Falwell of his day, was the Democratic nominee and only Republicans in the NY state legislature defended the hiring of Bertrand Russell the atheist scholar by a NY college...
"A lot of ordinary liberal people were as opposed to the TARP bailout as grass-roots conservatives were."
If you go back and read what the original netroots people like Kos were saying when they first started out, you find yourself agreeing with a lot of it. They were as angry and disenchanted with an unresponsive elite Democratic Party and Party establishment as I am with the Republicans.
MNG,
But you can't be intellectual like you are talking about unless you have the street creed of the acceptance of the academy. For example, there are lots of really good conservative scholars out there writing really good books. But, they tend to reside at second rate schools and think tanks. In an ideal world, someone like Phillip K. Howard would be tenured at Harvard or Princton and Modern Times would be read in every college level 20th Century world history class. But, that is not reality.
In fact, a big theme in intellectual conservative thought (Kirk, Burke, etc.) is deference to traditional authority.
You do realize that 21st century conservatism is not the same thing as 18th century conservatism, right? Those guys were monarchists, idiot.
How do you plan to get your fellow fool to buy into your view of limited government if the first words out of your mouth are what a fool he is? Or do you plan to limit government by force?
I don't plan on either. I have come to realize that my fellow man has no love for liberty and really never has. Your party has been paying lip service to smaller government my whole life and yet has expanded government just like it's opponent. And at every failure of their promise, their followers reward them with re-election and praise.
Show me that the system actually can constrain itself and then you may have a convert.
Tulpa
Are you arguing that modern conservartism is "maverickism?" I mean, there is no deference to, say, the executive, the military, the church?
WTF?
I'm not sure Russell Kirk was 18th Century or a monarchist btw.
"Show me that the system actually can constrain itself and then you may have a convert."
This system constrained itself from 1776 until about 1932. That is pretty good. I think we are reaching the end of the third American Republic. The first two were 1789 to 1860, 1860 to 1932. Now the third one started by Roosevelt is reaching the point of being morally and culturally bankrupt. If you want the fourth one to be better, you better figure out away to convince people of smaller government.
they already have a libertarian caucus in the republican party, its called the Republican Liberty Caucus
Shrug. I don't remember a lot of lefties worrying about the Truthers making them look crazy in 2005. They were too busy attacking the right defending democracy to care about the non-enemies on their left.
Also MNG,
Just because you believe an elite doesn't mean you act with complete distain for the rest of the country. A healthy elite conntects with the rest of the country and understands it. The current elite is increasingly marginalized from the rest of the country. And country is increasingly confused, angry and mistrustful of the elite. That is not a healthy state of affairs. And running around screaming about the Jesus freaks and the birthers does not help matters.
As a friend of mine recently commented "We used to have Friedman and Buckley. Now we have Hannety and Rush. What happened?"
"Palin's "record" is self promotion."
Worked for Obama
Well thanks for getting the ball rolling CN. I will take your bait.
The LP can and is a "viable" third choice especially here in Colorado. The state party here has more than doubled in the last two years. That growth has brought numerous new talented people to help express the ideas of libertarianism. While not all states can say the same this does serve to demonstrate that it is possible. Even against the amazingly stacked deck.
In Colorado the LP has a seat at the table usually. True, it is a child booster seat but nonetheless when they start to get fussy the Ds and Rs worry about losing seats. They have written legislation that has passed and had several members of the state government offer to sponsor some more. (Two examples include locking in the Party's ballot access and restricting the use of special taxing districts, which were out of control) Not to mention the efforts that the Colorado LP has joined in with such as TABOR and the Marijuana initiative in Denver. These things have put the LP representatives on the TV and radio consistently.
While it is not a libertopia for sure, Colorado is very much open to Libertarians. A current candidate for a city council seat relayed the following anecdote to me recently:
The LP out here has seen increasing success and I think this goes to show that if they act responsibly then the LP is taken seriously.
Don't judge a book by its political registration
"As a friend of mine recently commented "We used to have Friedman and Buckley. Now we have Hannety and Rush. What happened?"
Of course only a handful of people ever read or heard of either Buckly and Friedman. Furhter, Friedman and Buckley both were still around when Rush was very popular. One doesn't preclude the other. Rather than worrying about the existence of Rush and Hanity, maybe someone should worry about finding another Friedman or Buckley. One thing is for sure, bitching about Rush is not going to produce another Friedman.
Are you arguing that modern conservartism is "maverickism?" I mean, there is no deference to, say, the executive, the military, the church?
WTF?
Exactly. A common theme in conservatism is honor of authority (but only those authority figures they agree with).
Listen to any conservative talk show currently and the military worship is rampant, what with the CIA investigations. In their schizophrenic world, the government is filled with corruption and inefficiency when dealing with social programs, but is infallable and beyond moral corruption in matters of defense. Because the kid down the block who joins the Marine's was good and wholesome, that somehow can be extrapolated to all branches of the defense beauracracy.
This perception bleeds over into police matters as well.
micro200,
Most people don't want the CIA investigations because they don't care that the CIA tortured people. It is not that they think that "oh the good CIA would never do that". It is that they hope the CIA would do that.
micro2000,
We didn't wipe out the Indians, killl 600,000 of our own and win two World Wars because we are nice people. We are not. The American people are not as a rule the kind of people you want to screw with. And for the most part could not care less what the military or CIA did to the people they feel like screwed with us.
"Sorry John, Fluffy's comments were not elitist but a wakeup call to Republicans that limited government and not fring kooky stuff are the key to winning the disenfranchised Independents back."
No. The way to win Independants back is to just be patient. Eventually, the SEIU will beat up enough black people selling flags and punch enough protesters in the face (even if it doesn't result in finger loss), so that independants will say, "we no longer want any part of this shit."
Of course you adamantly disavow that attitude, John, defender of liberty and constitutional protections that you are, correct?
This system constrained itself from 1776 until about 1932. That is pretty good. I think we are reaching the end of the third American Republic. The first two were 1789 to 1860, 1860 to 1932. Now the third one started by Roosevelt is reaching the point of being morally and culturally bankrupt. If you want the fourth one to be better, you better figure out away to convince people of smaller government.
We disagree on this read of history. While there were different views of the role of government during this time, it can be argued that government was steadily increasing it's power over this same time (which is what governments do). And there are endless cases during this period of serious injustice, promoted by government.
Tony,
Read the Illiad sometime. It is a good lesson. It doesn't matter how nice you are and how you live by your principles like the Trojans did, if someone shows up and burns down your city.
You lost me there CN. Aren't those opposites?
Citizen Nothing makes a case for building a libertarian caucus within the Republican Party and, essentially, abandoning the LP.
Hehehe. Actually, I was mocking the criticism that the "more principled than thou" and the "L.P. is just too damned radical" sides heap upon the party.
See, this is why I'm an elitist.
micro2000,
We didn't wipe out the Indians, killl 600,000 of our own and win two World Wars because we are nice people. We are not. The American people are not as a rule the kind of people you want to screw with. And for the most part could not care less what the military or CIA did to the people they feel like screwed with us.
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
"John
It was not always so that academe and the art world was so leftist. I think some blame falls upon the Right for this."
As someone directly involved with both institutions for more than 50 years, I'm gonna need a citation or too.
From "SOCK IT TO THE LEFT": THE RISE OF THE SPITE RIGHT:
The Spite Right attack on Ron Paul and libertarians began when it demanded total support for the war - the war on the anti-war Left.
So when you guys get lumped in with whichever anti-government nut decides to blow up the next building, I suppose you'll be OK with the feds rounding you up and shipping you to a black site like they did with people equally tangential to al Qaeda?
As a friend of mine recently commented "We used to have Friedman and Buckley. Now we have Hannety and Rush. What happened?"
Come on. There are still genuine conservative intellectual and thinkers to be found.
Have you ever heard of Dr. Thomas Sowell? I would gladly put him up against the foremost current liberal intellectual (whoever that might be) in a debate on almost any topic, and feel great about my chances.
Barry,
Understand that most of the "spite right" hysteria about liberals is utterly political in nature. It's ginned up by the GOP for the GOP. They pay World Net Daily (birther headquarters) for their email list. The usual suspects in the rightwing propaganda world get talking points directly from the GOP. The GOP's astroturf 'outreach' extends to church pulpits and tea parties. It's centralized manipulation for the purposes of benefiting a political party, and it's been going on for a long time.
2010 will be the start of the Obama zombie punching.
That will continue until they are defeated or it's time to start dealing with the zombies in the traditional way.
"John | September 4, 2009, 9:53am | #
"I argued that conservatives have grown too comfortable with wearing scorn as a badge of honor, content to play sarcastic second fiddle to the dominant culture of academia and Hollywood with second-rate knock-off institutions."
So clearly the proper response is to go suck ass with Hollywood and academica and sell them our own ropes.""
I think the point is that the GOP should stop looking up to people like Coulter, Hannity, and O'Reilly.
If the rightwing doesn't want to play second fiddle to Hollywood it shouldn't try to copy them with shows like "The Half Hour News Hour" You can't be second fiddle if you don't play.
""Come on. There are still genuine conservative intellectual and thinkers to be found.""
I agree, but there is a lack of interest by todays rightwingers. They are more interested in the Jerry Springer style today.
I think a lot of people on this thread need to look up the definition of intellectual. Obama is not an intellectual he is an idealogue. Being anit-Obama is not being anti-intellectual.
I suppose you'll be OK with the feds rounding you up
I look forward to them trying. When that starts happening, Tony, you better run for the hills because your kind will be endangered. You and your ilk can move to Canada or France and have your socialism in every orifice.
John -- Did someone who can be described as "elitist" knock you down and take your lunch money when you were a kid? I think that you make a lot of intelligent points in comments, but your visceral dislike of the "elite" seems over-the-top to em.
JB,
Two minutes of water torture and you'll be pissing your pants crying for mommy. Internet machismo is soo impressive.
Stop obsessing about the Dems and Repubs; you can't change them. Channel that energy into crafting and publically championing a well-articulated Libertarian message and agenda instead.
Be the change people are looking for.
I look forward to them trying. When that starts happening, Tony, you better run for the hills because your kind will be endangered. You and your ilk can move to Canada or France and have your socialism in every orifice.
The point is not how principled you stand in the face of tyranny, it's how unprincipled so many are when the tyranny is not beset upon them.
Wow, I turned my back on this thread and hadn't realized how it had blown up.
I don't care how much you mouth about freedom and markets. You either believe that people have a right to have a say in their government and believe or you don't.
Let me deal with this first:
The parts of our government that are the most valuable are the ones that are least democratic.
The Bill of Rights outlines what the state cannot do, even if "the people" want the state to do it and instruct their representatives to vote for it.
99.99% of the political issues we face would disappear if the Bill of Rights had been properly designed when it was first written. The Founders fucked up, and as a result we have power politics where we don't need to have it.
It would be entirely possible - and, I think, desirable - to have a Constitution that was well enough designed that although we would still have elections, there would be virtually nothing for legislators to do. So in that sense - yes, absolutely, I would be happy if people didn't have a say in their government.
I'm happy that they don't have a say on issues of speech, or of religion. Why wouldn't I be happy if they had no say over matters of the regulation of interstate commerce either?
Second, you can be as angry as you want, but you hold a set of beliefs about the GOP that has absolutely no basis in historical fact.
You appear to be trying to claim that the GOP espoused small government principles because that was what the "unwashed" wanted. And that's just not true. It was what a cadre of intellectuals wanted, and what a handful of mountain and western political figures wanted, and it overlapped with the interests of eastern establishment types just enough to make it onto the platform. The "unwashed" went along with it because they hated hippies and crime and were mad about not being allowed to force public school kids to pray any more, and the tradeoff they made to be part of the GOP coalition was pretending to care about small government. When Bush taught them that they didn't have to care about small government any more, they were perfectly happy to go along.
Just think, if Obama and Van Jones are any indication, today's birthers are tomorrow's czars!
"When Bush taught them that they didn't have to care about small government any more, they were perfectly happy to go along."
No. They went along because there was a war on and the other side went nuts. Had 9-11 never happened and Bush done all of the big government stuff he did, he would have been dead in 2004. The only reason he won re-election was because the Dems embraced the Michael Moore wing of the Party. Meanwhile, Republican members of Congress were interested in handing out earmarks and getting their buddies rich. Eventually, they got kicked out of power for that. If the unwashed masses were so gung ho on big government, the Republicans wouldn't have been kicked out in 2006.
Honestly, Fluffy do you actually know or have you ever lived around the people you so causally slander? You seem to argue against this sort of Archie Bunker welfare queen that lives in your head but can be found nowhere else.
"""The only reason he won re-election was because the Dems embraced the Michael Moore wing of the Party."""
Gee, and I thought Bush won because the Swift Boaters sunk Kerry, and Bush had proven he meant business in hunting down the terrorist.
John, I suspect the dems will get kicked out due to spending too. Obama has only been in office about 8 months, he has a long way to go before his term expires.
"Gee, and I thought Bush won because the Swift Boaters sunk Kerry, and Bush had proven he meant business in hunting down the terrorist."
Weak Democratic candidate combined with the perception that the Dems wouldn't defend the country. We don't seem to disagree. The point is that Bush didn't win in 2004 because everyone loved his big government positions such as they were.
John,
War is big government.
To quote Madison
" Of all the enemies of true liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few.... No nation can preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."
The support for the current military state and the war on terrorism is incompatible with a small government agenda.
nj,
John doesn't give a rat's ass about small government. He cares about hating Democrats and fantasizing about having sex with Sarah Palin. He's a wingnut who gets all pissy every time anyone criticizes a Republican for anything.
Regarding Bartlett, I'll repost what I posted elsewhere:
"What's the difference between Bruce Bartlett and the average Conservative?
In the last eight years, the average Republican's only been taken in by one free-spending socialist.
Impostor, particularly in recognition of when it was written, is actually a good book. It details the one moment when Bartlett first realized the Republican Party had become a bunch of impostors insofar as fiscal responsibility was concerned. That was Medicare Part D, which of course the Democrats opposed as too fiscally responsible.
However many years later he's now so politically, financially, and most importantly - psychologically invested in attacked Conservatives and Republicans, and confusing them if he must, that he's enabling a crew enacting policies even worse than Medicare Part D.
Pathetic."
Look, most of what is considered "intellectualism" today, is stupidity. And most self-decribed "intellectuals" are actually educated idiots, in the sense that they have reached a level of stupidity that is not natural and can only be taught.
With very few people on the "right" (I hate that term) have anything against "smart" people. There are populists, but these exist on both sides, particularly with the fetishization of democracy we have in this country. A lot of people on the right have a problem, however, with these educated morons using their inflated credentials (which today are as often red badges of indoctrination as much as they are true ability) as a replacement for actual intelligence.
Also, there is a different, often conflated in this debate, between aristrocratic elitism ("I come from a long line of politicians, policymakers, and professors, who will in turn usher me into the next generation of the 'best and brightest' fuck ups."), and meritocratic elitism (the best in any field deserve to be recognized as such). I believe with all my heart in the latter. I detest the former. And I'm pretty sure that many people who hear me attack "elitism" confuse my disdain for the former as disdain for the latter.
Above should actually be:
"What's the difference between Bruce Bartlett and the average Conservative?
In the last eight years, the average Conservative's only been taken in by one free-spending socialist."
Honestly, Fluffy do you actually know or have you ever lived around the people you so causally slander?
What group was it that made up the rump 30% Bush approval rating, John?
Among people who self-identified as being right wing in 2000, what group do you think stayed with Bush in the greatest percentage?
Who bailed on Bush? Was it the "unwashed"? Or did they stay with him?
Let me just endorse everything commenter "John" has said above. Bravo.