Are Health Insurers the Enemy?
DC Examiner columnist Tim Carney thinks so, but not for the reasons you might expect:
Health insurance companies are not your friends. Keep opposing a new government-run insurer, a single-payer plan, and new regulations on the HMOs. But grant that Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi is correct on this: Insurance companies are villains.
Insurance companies lobby for big-government regulations, subsidies, mandates, and tax-code distortions that funnel them money, keep out competition, and stultify innovation. These policies preserve the employer-based health-care system that mocks the idea of free-market competition. Then they cry "unfair competition" when government threatens to encroach on their government-protected monopolies.
But they're not just lobbying against a government option. Today, health insurers are lobbying to force you and me to buy their product or face a tax hike (the individual mandate).
They are lobbying to force entrepreneurs to buy insurance for employees (the employer mandate). They are lobbying for more subsidies paid for by us taxpayers. In short, they are lobbying against regular people and against the free market.
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At least ignition interlocks are a good deal.
Health insurers are playing the game in an environment they did not create and they are behaving rationally as corporations or mutual organizations. I damn them for their poor business ethics but any and all invective for the "healthcare crisis" should be spit directly where it belongs: in the faces of the elected officials who have ignored the Constitutional constraints on their power and opened the door to be bought off time after time.
and by the way...
Insurance companies Doctors lobby for big-government regulations, subsidies, mandates, and tax-code distortions that funnel them money, keep out competition, and stultify innovation
works just as well.
Health insurers are playing the game in an environment they did not create
Not so. The insurers are willing participants in an environment that excludes new competitors.
-jcr
Hell, swillfredo, you could substitute just about any interest group in there. Its a function of having a large, intrusive government with no real limits on its scope.
Not so. The insurers are willing participants in an environment that excludes new competitors.
Of course they are which is why I have a problem with their business ethics. But graft and corruption in the U.S. government predates anything reasonably construed as the era of "healthcare crisis" or even the inception of modern health insurance.
If you get into bed with the government, you deserve a disease and your dick falling off.
Let me get this straight. Corporate ownership of government is all government's fault. That must mean government hasn't done enough, hasn't regulated enough, to keep corporate interests from influencing government policy and distorting the market in their favor. Such a shame that you libertarians didn't get all those corporate regulations you've been calling for.
The cognitive dissonance of this post is mind-boggling. If we called government something else, say, kittens, would the pavlovian impulse to blame it for everything go away?
I'm a libertarian and pro-free market, but I've always disliked insurance companies. I dont see the Obamacare plan as salvation from dealing with insurance companies; instead, it would create the most annoying insurance company ever.
Tony,
Yes it is governments fault. They right the laws, they accept input from corps, they offer and/or exchange favors that affect everyone else.
You may not like corporate lobbyists asking you to dance but don't get upset when you take your shirt off and get fondled.
Corporate ownership of government is all government's fault.
Yes. When the government abrogates to itself illegitimate powers to determine who wins and who loses in an otherwise fair marketplace, you can expect the market participants to attempt to influence the awarding of favors. The only way to get rid of this is to limit the extent and magnitude of the favors they can award.
But you apparently missed this part of the post, didn't you?
How is it cognitive dissonance to blame the government for inviting vested interests to help write legislation? Who do you blame for the party? The host or the guests?
Tony,
You may think you're being clever, but you're not. So, let me explain it in terms even a pinkbot can understand: government power is like uranium. If you get too much of it in one place, Bad Things Happen.
Among the bad things that can happen are bureaucrats overriding our own decisions, or businesses using the government power to exclude their competition or force us to buy their services whether we want to or not (what we call "rent-seeking".)
-jcr
Corporate ownership of government is all government's fault.
That's right. Government's insatiable drive to grow and control has made it worth owning. If we had a government that adhered to its enumerated powers, this wouldn't be a problem.
That must mean government hasn't done enough, hasn't regulated enough, to keep corporate interests from influencing government policy and distorting the market in their favor.
Err, no. What you fail to realize, Tony, is that money and power will always find each other. The problem is too much government intrusion in business, which can't be solved by more government intrusion in business.
Hell, swillfredo, you could substitute just about any interest group in there. Its a function of having a large, intrusive government with no real limits on its scope.
Huzzah!
Ah so the goal is to let corporations fuck us without having to bother buying off politicians.
Tony,
"Ah so the goal is to let corporations fuck us without having to bother buying off politicians."
Say wha?
Err, no. What you fail to realize, Tony, is that money and power will always find each other.
In which case, how exactly do you propose to keep government limited?
Who's to blame when parties really get out of hand?
Who's to blame when they get poorly planned?
...Party gone out of bounds! Gone out of bounds!
Party gone out of bounds! Gone out of bounds!
"Ah so the goal is to let corporations fuck us without having to bother buying off politicians."
That way they can pass the cost savings on to their customers.
Corporate ownership of government is all government's fault.
You probably were not aware of this, but the President and members of Congress take an oath of office to defend the Constitution. Corporate officers take no such oath and in fact are obligated to serve the best interests of their shareholders. Only a straw man sporting a nifty straw hat would believe that the corporations are the problem in capture theory. But keep following that yellow brick road Tony, it'll get you home to Kansas.
But keep following that yellow brick road Tony, it'll get you home to Kansas.
Thomas Frank says the people of Kansas are so stupid they vote against their own self-interest, and he wouldn't lie. Tony probably wouldn't like it there.
I don't expect corporations to neglect to take any opportunity that will increase their profits. I just wonder what your guys' solution to corporate control of congress is, assuming you think it's a bad thing.
'Congress is baiting the health-care industry into supporting reform, and the industries think they're going to get more from having a seat at the legislative bargaining table than from running an opposition strategy.'
That's sure a great insurance industry you got goin' there . . . it would be a shame if it all got nationalized . . . we can protect you, but you have to play ball with us . . . let me make you an offer you can't refuse.
[Or, in the case of health-care reform, an offer that you need a team of lobbyists and bureaucrats to interpret properly]
In which case, how exactly do you propose to keep government limited?
A constitutional republic of limited enumerated powers, punctuated as needed by revolution.
I just wonder what your guys' solution to corporate control of congress is, assuming you think it's a bad thing.
Term limits
Property rights
Enumerated powers
Free association
Freedom of contract
And most importantly...
Free banking
R C Dean, I believe we are on the eve of that punctuation.
"I don't expect corporations to neglect to take any opportunity that will increase their profits. I just wonder what your guys' solution to corporate control of congress is, assuming you think it's a bad thing."
Ever worked with the board of diectors of a multi-billion dollar global corporation? I have (Honeywell Int'l, American Express where I'm at currently. Got to learn things very few people get to and get paid at the same time. Gotta love America.
The myth that corporations are all evil and out to screw everybody is as ignorant as the myth that all black folks are shitless and lazy. Or that all gays want to fuck children.
They're all just things stupid people say because for some reason they feel the need to say something even if it's stupid.
So tell us, Tony, why do you keep fucking little kids?
Equating potential abuses by thousands of unconnected corporations with a giant central government is one error I do not get from the left. Especially when the majority of problems associated with businesses stem from the actions of the government. Without government-granted monopolies, barriers to entry, and bizarre and unequally enforced regulations, competition would actually be the driving force, not who knows (or pays off) who.
The myth that corporations are all evil and out to screw everybody is as ignorant as the myth that all black folks are shitless and lazy.
Fish in a barrel, folks.
Really, just because its the Law doesn't mean you have to do it. Its not that kind of law.
"Let me get this straight. Corporate ownership of government is all government's fault"
If the corporations "own" government, then why do regulations exist at all?
Why do corporate taxes exist at all?
Why do labor laws, minimum wage laws and countless other laws exist at all?
If the corporations REALLY "owned" government, none of these things would have ever come to pass to begin with.
Gunboat,
I did not nor have I ever said corporations are evil. Their job is to maximize profits and I don't expect them to do anything else.
But to blame government meddling for corporate meddling in government is kinda silly. It's like me punching you in the face and then blaming your face for being there.
Irrespective of the typo, I stand by my comments. When one spends years and years working with exceptionally successful business people, many of whom have gone on tho be Cabinet Secretaries and the like, it's a little tiresome listening to the the Tonys of the world parrot nonsense.
Pro Lib, maybe it's Michael Moore films? People have been known to give him 30 minute standing ovations for displaying the most gratuitous shot of 9/11 available. I think their anti-American minds, on a high after watching the destruction of a capitalist symbol, are more susceptible to persuasion.
Horse Hockey, Tony, H&R is littered with your corporations are teh evil comments.
That's because they haven't always owned the government. There was a time when regulating the market was considered a legitimate function of a civilized society.
And you never answered my question about your unatural proclivity towards small naked chlidren.
"There was a time when regulating the market was considered a legitimate function of a civilized society."
Ever subscribe to the Federal Register, Tony?
"That's because they haven't always owned the government"
So if the corporations REALLY own the government now, how come all those things haven't been completely eliminated yet?
Gunboat,
I don't believe in 'evil' so I find that hard to believe. I do believe their interests aren't always necessarily in line with the public interest.
Not even that is a reason to regulate them. They should be free to pursue their interests. Until that starts to infringe on other people's interests, that is. When a factory pollutes a common water supply, you guys would have me believe the solution is to get government out of the way, and magic will solve the problem.
There was a time when regulating the market was considered a legitimate function of a civilized society. not in fashion, which corresponded with the greatest rise in the standard of living in history.
FTFY
They've been working on it for a while now. Of course they don't own the entire government. Thanks to the K Street project they own a significant chunk of the GOP though.
"I don't believe in 'evil'"
Well those naked little kids certainly do.
"They've been working on it for a while now. Of course they don't own the entire government. Thanks to the K Street project they own a significant chunk of the GOP though."
Rick Wagoner.
Game.
Set.
Match.
I'm sure you think eliminating corporate taxes would be a bad thing too, Tony?
I dislike health insurance companies. That's why I choose to live without health insurance. Problem solved.
In which case, how exactly do you propose to keep government limited?
A constitutional republic of limited enumerated powers, punctuated as needed by revolution.
Limited how? By whom? You're basically planning to limit government through permanent libertarian fervor. That'll never happen. Any better ideas?
Limited how? By whom? You're basically planning to limit government through permanent libertarian fervor. That'll never happen. Any better ideas?
No, but its the only thing that has ever worked. Basically, the idea is to structurally cripple government, so it can only grow slowly enough to be rolled back by the citizenry. If the citizens don't care to do that because they have no commitment to individual freedom, then there's nothing anybody can do.
If the corporations "own" government, then why do regulations exist at all?
I think you'll find that lots and lots of modern regulations were not opposed by Big Corporate because they create barriers to entry.
Corporations love nothing more than a law that gives them a competitive edge, and large bureaucratic regimes that impose non-scalable compliance costs fit the bill nicely. Big Corporate can afford it, their smaller competitors can't, so the modern regulatory regime builds a competitive moat around Big Corporate.
"They've been working on it for a while now"
Evidently they haven't been doing too good a job of it, since government power has been steadily increasing for a quite a few years now - and is accelerating quite rapidly right now.
I just wonder what your guys' solution to corporate control of congress is, assuming you think it's a bad thing.
Interest group influence over government can't be completely eliminated, but the more we limit the power of government the less worthwhile it is to try to influence it, and the less damage it can do.
If the corporations "own" government, then why do regulations exist at all?
They don't "own" government. They just have a lot of influence. "Owned" is a rhetorical exaggeration.
In the particular case of regulations, they are often used to reinforce existing businesses dominance of the market. This is known as "regulatory capture". Happens all the time.
If an industry is powerful enough to influence government in a big way, why is that sort of power not a threat to individual liberty in the way that government's is?
Because only government can wield actual force without societal reprobation.
US Steel cannot prevent me from buying steel from a foreign company. Only the government can do that. So US Steel gets the government to do that.
This isn't that difficult.
Doctors Hospitals lobby for big-government regulations, subsidies, mandates, and tax-code distortions that funnel them money, keep out competition, and stultify innovation
That'll work, too.
Corporate ownership of government is all government's fault.
Yes, 100%. Absolutely. No doubt about it. Let me be more clear: Corporate ownership of government is all government's fault.
Oh what, the government just couldn't help itself when it sold itself to the corporations? The money was just too good? Get the money out of politics and this will save those poor senators, congressment and presidents from the obvious and insurmountable temptations being flaunted before them?
Maybe we should start a fund to help politicians cope with the temptation of selling their vote.
In which case, how exactly do you propose to keep government limited?
Take the power out of government. Create a space where no power exists. Limit government's powers to those enumerated (yeah I now, how boring would that be).
"In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution." --Thomas Jefferson
Even Jefferson described the constitution as a 'chain' on government. Man, strains the mind, doesn't it?
Ah so the goal is to let corporations fuck us without having to bother buying off politicians
Explain, exactly, how Safeway would take my property (for instance) without the helping hand of government?
R C Dean, I believe we are on the eve of that punctuation.
We are not. After three (or so) generations, Americans now have it in their DNA to look to government for their basic needs. See: Katrina.
If an industry is powerful enough to influence government in a big way, why is that sort of power not a threat to individual liberty in the way that government's is?
What do you mean "powerful enough to influence government"? Who's running this government, why are they answering the phone calls from this powerful corporation, and why are they complying with the demands? Perhaps if those levers to power didn't even exist, no one would be pulling them. A novel idea...
I'll quote it again, this time in bold in case everyone missed it:
"In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution." --Thomas Jefferson
I'd love to take that property from Mrs. Jones and give it to you, Mr. CEO, but I can't because the Constitution clearly states for "Public Use".
I'd like to stop that guy from saying stuff you don't agree with, but it says right here in my handy pocket constitution: Congress shall make no law...
I'd like to ban all firearms from the city of Pleasantville, but it says right here, "the right of the people..."
Really, it's not that hard.
Doctors Hospitals Labor unions lobby for big-government regulations, subsidies, mandates, and tax-code distortions that funnel them money, keep out competition, and stultify innovation
This works too.
Most importantly, this is the reason that the tax bias for employer-provided health care -- the single biggest distortion of the health care market -- is not even mentioned in the so called reform discussions.
Not mentioned by the media, for sure. Not mentioned by politicians, of course. But all the experts are in agreement here:
(forgive me for linking to David Brooks)
"the single biggest distortion of the health care market"
"experts - on right or left - always give for supporting this idea."
Yep, and obviously it distorts the labor market as well, and not in favor of labor. Most people just don't make the connection.
From the July 30th NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL OF MEDICINE: "Growth in health care spending is disproportionately felt by middle-income working families. We expose this pattern by considering the impact...on working Americans. We include not only the most transparent categories of spending...but also forgone wages that employers instead contribute to premiums and the share of income taxes that are devoted to public insurance programs. In including employers' premium contributions as both workers' health care spending and income, we are taking the view, common among health economists,(4) that the burden of employer contributions falls on the worker rather than the employer."
From "The Burden of Health Care Costs for Working Families - Implications for Reform." Not sure if the link will work.
http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=1241
I just wonder what your guys' solution to corporate control of congress is, assuming you think it's a bad thing.
Diminish the power that congress wields to only those given in the constitution.
-jcr
See, now why did David Brooks goes that direction with this? Yes, that's a rhetorical question.
Someone a little less in the thrall of government wonders might say that, rather than repealing the exemption, government should give individuals the same tax exemption.
government should give individuals the same tax exemption.
Of course, if I had my druthers, the exemption would be phased out with the extra revenue plowed back against the deficit -- just as should happen with the mortgage interest deduction. Low tax rates. No loopholes. Thank you very much.
But if the government feels, as it apparently does, that it should subsidize people's getting health insurance, then there are fewer more efficient ways than making that spending tax exempt. In fact, both Bush and McCain proposed making the exemption applicable to individuals along with capping the exemption for individuals and employers at $15,000 per year to avoid subsidizing Cadillac plans.
Any or all of these are far better than the industry-nationalizing legislation going through committee today.
Health insurance companies are not the "enemy", they are just corporations doing what corporations always try to do (maximize profits) in a system where market failures are rampant, and the insurance companies' goals are in conflict with those of their end customers.
Unfortunately, these market failures are rooted in the very concept of health insurance, regardless of who pays for it. "Free markets" cannot solve these issues, short of getting rid of insurance entirely.
"They gave the reasons that experts - on right or left - always give for supporting this idea. The exemption is a giant subsidy to the affluent."
A "subsidy" for the affluent?
The only people getting a subsidy are those whose total dollars of tax payments are less than the total dollar value of government services that they personally receive in return in exchange for their money.
In point of fact, the affluent are subsidizing just about everyone else.
The top 50% of income earners pay 97% of federal income taxes. They sure aren't getting 97% of the value of all government services in exchange for their money, so they aren't getting a "subsidy".
It sure feels like a subsidy, as most private health care transactions are funneled through it. Without the exemption the IRS would take in hundreds of billions more per year.
Of course the whole income tax is not a very good thing but if you're going to have it, at least make it fair. Exempting home-buyers and insurance-buyers does not sound very fair.
Insurance companies are not the enemy.
Our own personal greed is!
Our reluctance to help those that need help is.
God exists in all of us
The devil is there too
Keep Dope Alive baby
I sincerely hope this isn't what most libertarians believe. What the fuck is the point of government if not to prevent and alleviate the damage caused by massive natural disasters. What a ridiculous thing to say. Some people don't realize just how radically insane their rhetoric has become. Now victims of hurricanes are welfare queens.
Joshua Holmes,
In which case, how exactly do you propose to keep government limited?
I declare you thread winner, as the only one who hit the most important nail right on the head. How, indeed?
R C Dean,
.... Basically, the idea is to structurally cripple government, so it can only grow slowly enough to be rolled back by the citizenry. If the citizens don't care to do that because they have no commitment to individual freedom, then there's nothing anybody can do.
Ever study the logic of large groups? We The People are a huge group. Organizing large groups to pursue any goal, even one in its own interest, is a daunting and often impossible task.
It's easy to blame "the people" for not defending themselves, but I contend that this blame is misplaced. People respond to incentives, and in large groups their is a huge dis-incentive to act at all.
OTOH, our elected leaders have huge incentives to create the political cluster fuck we now have because that is the incentive that democratic processes provide. And they provide it very efficiently, thank you.
Paul,
Oh what, the government just couldn't help itself when it sold itself to the corporations? The money was just too good? Get the money out of politics and this will save those poor senators, congressment and presidents from the obvious and insurmountable temptations being flaunted before them?
And precisely how do you plan on doing that? Something like this?
What do you mean "powerful enough to influence government"? Who's running this government, why are they answering the phone calls from this powerful corporation, and why are they complying with the demands? Perhaps if those levers to power didn't even exist, no one would be pulling them. A novel idea...
I'll quote it again, this time in bold in case everyone missed it:
"In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution." --Thomas Jefferson
As someone just put it so well over at econolog, it doesn't matter if you make government a republic or a representative democracy. The government is still the king, for all practical purposes. So what you're saying here amounts to this:
"I, the king, prohibit myself from doing X, Y, and Z. And if I should do X, Y, and Z, then I shall lash myself with the whip at least 40 times."
Great theory. But when the king decides to do X, Y, and Z anyway, and doesn't whip himself -- what exactly is anyone going to do about it?
Eventually, the only option is revolt. Which is not appealing for a least 100 different reasons.
See
http://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2009/Jasayfiscalstate.html
The system we have has worked as well or better, than anything that anybody has come up with yet (though it might be argued that the Romans lasted longer, but not without grief). But whether it's a republic or a representative democracy that we have, in the long run government is a self-polluting proposition.
My overall point: blaming "we the people" for not defending ourselves against this corruption, misses the very real (and formidable) reasons why it has never worked this way. It's not "we the people" who are to blame, it's the system itself.
We, the people, have not yet figured out how to design a government in such a way as to keep it restrained and uncorrupted over the long haul.
Or put it simpler still: representative democracy sucks. Making it "a republic" doesn't solve anything. We need a fundamentally better answer to this problem we've got.......
The politicians who seek power, will do so relentlessly. How much time and treasure do you, the average citizen, have to spend, attempting to check the efforts of the ambitious few from usurping their powers?
The politician is at it all day, every day. Most of us here have barely an hour or two a day to even worry about it. Some of us even have to work for a living.
How many of you really wants to spend all your time watching what the government is up to? How many of you are so well informed, that you know everything about all the various government agencies, and what they're up to?
We may now begin to understand why the ancient Greeks felt that a city-state should not exceed a population of about 50,000.
Sorry for the long post, got carried away. But I get really tired of hearing the same old tripe. "It's the voter's faults", or "If the people won't defend themselves against invasive government then they deserve to be enslaved".
Nothing could be further from the truth. The truth is that our system is no good and we need to come up with something better.
Scrooge:
I can see where you are coming from, but it IS the voter's fault. There WAS a time when the average person was not only more committed to individual liberty, but was better informed about gub'ment.
Even the illiterate ones. At least they hadn't had 12-15 years of statist propaganda stuffed in their think-putty. Maybe they couldn't read, but they knew a snake when they saw one, and were smart enough to chop off it's head.
But whether it's a republic or a representative democracy that we have, in the long run government is a self-polluting proposition.
Which is why the intrusions have to be nipped in the bud.
The politicians who seek power, will do so relentlessly. How much time and treasure do you, the average citizen, have to spend, attempting to check the efforts of the ambitious few from usurping their powers?
The politician is at it all day, every day. Most of us here have barely an hour or two a day to even worry about it. Some of us even have to work for a living.
How many of you really wants to spend all your time watching what the government is up to? How many of you are so well informed, that you know everything about all the various government agencies, and what they're up to?
Gee, you don't suppose that government Watch-Dogs could help in this regard, do you?
How can ANYONE (short of the few illiterates and the mentally infirm) in this day and age of instant communication not be informed? The people on this site seem keep abreast of the issues, even if SOME of us have interpreted events badly due to a flawed mind-set.
No, so many people in our time have voluntarily, and sometimes gleefully, allowed themselves to be ill-informed and mis-informed.
KFP, good answer. If schools would teach the constitution instead of collectivist philosophy we could be living in a golden age. The internet could be the greatest tool in the fight against government bloat, but unfortunately, at this point, there are just too many voters on the take.
"If an industry is powerful enough to influence government in a big way, why is that sort of power not a threat to individual liberty in the way that government's is?" - Tony
Because ultimately the threat is still the government's power. There is no good way to limit industry's ability to influence government without limiting every citizen's ability to influence government.