The Real Clunkers in this Deal
Why "cash for clunkers" is a terrible idea
Cash for Clunkers has been a thrilling moment for advocates of expanded government, who say it proves what we can accomplish when our leaders put their minds to it. They are absolutely right. The program proves the federal government is unsurpassed at two things: dispersing money and destroying things.
Of course, it already proved that in Iraq. But for sheer rapidity of confirmation, this program is hard to beat. Cash for Clunkers managed to go through a billion dollars in about four days, vaporizing a fund that was supposed to last until Halloween.
The spectacle was particularly heartening to supporters of President Obama's fiscal stimulus plan, who had been disconsolate to find that when Washington attempts to embark on a sudden $787 billion spending spree, as it did last February, it needs months or even years to burn through the cash. Not only that, but it gave Congress a great excuse to throw more money onto the pyre.
In a period when financial pressures are forcing us all to adopt the forgotten ethic of "use it up, make it do, wear it out," the initiative is a throwback to the more extravagant days of 2007, when we were all spending like there was no tomorrow. It requires Washington to borrow funds to pay people to scrap perfectly functional vehicles merely because they get 18 miles per gallon or less, to subsidize cars that get 22 mpg or more.
The incentive is supposed to give a big boost to energy conservation. But there is less here than meets the eye, because it assumes the new owners will make no changes in their behavior. In fact, if you swap a gas hog for a less thirsty model, you'll probably drive the new vehicle more miles than you drove the old one, because each mile will cost you less.
The New York Times also says experts suspect the trade-ins are often "spare cars in multicar households, and driven very few miles every year." Transportation expert Lee Schipper of Stanford University and the University of California, Berkeley, said, "The new car doesn't replace the clunker, it replaces the previous first car in the family."
In many households, the results could be perverse. Say you've got a 5-year-old Volkswagen Passat and a 10-year-old Ford F-150 pickup. Whenever possible, you drive the Passat, which gets 27 mpg overall, and use the truck only when you have to.
But now you have a shiny new Toyota Camry that gets 23 mpg. So it gets the bulk of your miles, while the VW sits in the garage. In the end, you'll send more money to Riyadh than before.
Not everyone will operate this way. But enough people will that the fuel savings is sure to fall short of the rosiest expectations.
Likewise with the stimulus. Right now, it looks as though Cash for Clunkers is a blessing to automakers and the economy because it's induced consumers to buy cars they wouldn't have bought. Actually, a lot of the vehicles would have been purchased regardless—just not right this minute.
Some people undoubtedly put off shopping for a car back in May or June to get in on the deal. Others who were planning to wait until fall or winter to get rid of the old beater decided to act sooner. Just because dealers are selling more cars right now doesn't mean they'll sell more cars overall. If the program gave the economy a jolt in July, it will be a drag in December.
The buying frenzy is widely interpreted to mean that Congress and the administration did a brilliant job of designing the plan. George Mason University economist Russell Roberts contends on his Cafe Hayek blog that it proves just the opposite.
If you put your house on the market and immediately get 10 offers at the listed price, it means you should have asked for more. The stampede, says Roberts, indicates the subsidy ($3,500 or $4,500 per trade) was too rich and the government could have gotten "the same effects with a much smaller amount."
As it is, the House and Senate quickly allocated another $2 billion to consign more cars and trucks to the scrap heap. Isn't that just like our government? A lot of money spent and a lot of wreckage left behind.
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The cost-benefit analysis is, indeed, simple and unfavorable for the program (not that it's not unfavorable for all distribution programs).
So do they announce this shit because it (a) distracts from the worse shit (a la general officials' stubbornness with birth certificate), (b) its inevitable failure will be blamed on not going too far enough (porkulous), or (c) third-grade multiplication is beyond the pretender's pay grade (Al Gore is looking smarter than this guy, if you ignore manbearpig)?
Again, this program is a practical application of the Broken Window Fallacy. It is wasteful, shortsighted, and will not do what it says it will do. Do big government lovers need to have good economics literally pounded into their heads?
"Ending is better than mending. The more stitches, the less riches." - Brave New World
Do big government lovers need to have good economics literally pounded into their heads?
I've found that, to the small extent reasoning is involved, the principles they start from include either an abstract agreement of mercantilism or the straight-up belief that the economy and money is a zero-sum game. With the latter assumption, one can support central planning by way of finite wealth leading to volutnary transactions being oppressive.
Now, many of the more reasonable Leftist arguments online actually don't require zero-sum economics, to their credit. But with enough "social justice" (Robin hood of the state), they can justify any wealth-destroying program, even if nobody comes out ahead because poverty is an egalitarian ideal.
From The Star Ledger:
I own a 92 Buick Regal with a 3.8 liter engine. This car is not on the list. However, a 92 Park Avenue with a 3.8 is on the list. The difference in mileage is not the engine, but the size and weight. So, the 3.8 from a Park Avenue could be used in a Regal.
This car is now sitting in a parking lot with a for sale sign on it. It's been there for about three weeks. I haven't got one hit on it. With 150,000 miles and a $600 asking price, if I don't sell it soon, it's going to a scrap yard. A perfectly good, reliable car being scrapped. Hmmm. Where did I hear that?
This program was/is a fluke. It helped some dealers and manufacturers who were strapped for cash during what should have been, a busy summer season. I thought it was interesting, while watching the Senate debate, that Republicans offered an amendment to expand the program to home buyers. Why on Earth would they do that?
The claims by the politicians that this program is a "success" is absurd.
Their idea of determining "success" is to ask the people who are getting free stuff at somebody else's expense if they like it.
They do?
Why that means it's a success!
What a load of crap.
"Ending is better than mending. The more stitches, the less riches." - Brave New World
A gramme is better than a damn.
Thanks to President Obama I can now take the scenic route to church on Sunday.
You said it Gilbert.
I just have to laugh at the "logic" of the Cash for Clunkers supporters. So the program "worked" because we spent all the money faster than we thought we would! What a "smashing" success! (Pun intended.)
Here's a conveniently ignored factor related to energy savings of new cars: How much energy is used in the production of a new car? The energy used to mine the iron to make the steel and the energy used to make all the other components?, the energy used to transport all the parts to the factory? the energy used to assemble the car? the energy used to distribute the car?
Subtract out the total energy used in the production of a new car and see what that yields in net real energy savings.
Isn't this just a rehash of the great depression programs of slaughtering pigs and burning wheat fields?
strike through16 years agoGilbert Martin | August 10, 2009, 8:20am | #
The claims by the politicians that this program is a "success" is absurd.
They never said it was a success. They're saying it's "wildly successful." Subtle difference, but it's right there in the DNC talking points, obediently repeated by their lackeys in the press.
It's funny, I would like a new car but I decided not to use this plan because I felt it was wrong on so many levels (later I found out my car wasn't eligible anyway)
I try to tell people why, that it's bad for the environment, bad for the poor and first time buyers, bad for junkyard dealers, bad for everyone except car companies, and I didn't want to take my neighbor's money to buy a car when I have a job, and they say "what are you a republican? How can you be against this?"
The world has gone insane.
"Here's a conveniently ignored factor related to energy savings of new cars: How much energy is used in the production of a new car?"
I've read 6.7 tons of carbon. Not sure how that figure is reached.
For hybrids that ignores the ground pollution from mining. Nickel mines in Canada provide nickel for Toyota's batteries, maybe other companies too. We can have a new slogan "save the atmosphere, poison the ground in Canada!" since Canadians are too nice to put up much of a fuss.
The article suggests that its going to make arguments about cash for clunkers as an "idea." But no argument is given! These arguments (and those in the readers response) have all of the rhetorical earmarks of "arguments" from religious nuts. What we see here is folks overcommitted to a religious idea and it wouldn't matter what the Obama admin said anyway so enjoy all the self-satisfaction.
Subtract out the total energy used in the production of a new car and see what that yields in net real energy savings.
Yeah, Cash for Clunkers is about energy savings. And Barack Obama is all about change.
Yeah, Cash for Clunkers is about energy savings.
Its funny. When someone points out that C4C is economic idiocy, the Obamatrons say its about carbon reduction. When you point out the carbon reductions are trivial at best, they say its a stimulus program.
Its a dessert topping AND a floor wax!
I think some economists think CfC is useless since it replaces cars that would have been replaced in the near future anyway, thus depressing future sales. But the idea is that we need the stimulus right now, and that hopefully in the near future the economy will have recovered sufficiently to make it a net benefit. Sort of borrowing future spending to use to mitigate the current crisis.
Sort of borrowing future spending to use to mitigate the current crisis.
No, sort of burning a $100 bill to light a fire when you could've bought a box of matches for $0.50.
Welfare for car dealers! It's what the country needs.
I wonder how many of the dealers on GM's "hit list" will run to their local Congressidiots to use this clunker-based flurry of sales to claim they are viable, and shouldn't be forced to close or consolidate.
Price supports- not just for corn, anymore!
I didn't want to take my neighbor's money to buy a car when I have a job, and they say "what are you a republican? How can you be against this?"
But if you didn't have a job it would be OK? Just asking. (I agree with your sentiment.)
plutosdad, I like the way your neighbors equate having a job with being a Republican.
I'm surprised no one has pointed out the moral hazard of this program. I, and many others, bought a fuel efficient car (Pontiac Vibe, in my case) long before this program was enacted and I didn't get dookie for it. Others who drive old poluting gas pigs get rewarded with up to $4500.
It's sort of like if you have two kids and you offer to give them $10 for every report-card grade they bring up. The C-student kid brings his grades up to B's. The A-student keeps getting A's. You give the C-student $60, but the A-student gets nothing. Sounds ridiculous, but that's exactly what this program does.
All that said, I still think of all the "stimulus spending", this program is probably the one I find the least offensive. First, it's only 3 billion (small change these days), Second, sure, it's a redistribution of wealth and all that, but at least it's a direct redistribution (i.e. from the gov't directly to a person) rather than ten different rent seekers getting their cut along the way.
These are the same people who are like 'where's Stalin's cock so I can suck it? mmmnmmnmm'
Motherfuckers. I say we start with destroying them. It's only self-defense to abort those fetuses.
Really? At least some other "stimuli" are ostensibly for "public" purposes like infrastructure--this one just reeks Obama rewarding his buddies. It's the most offensive project to date IMHO.
Have you been in a coma? Maybe it's a bunch of bullshit but I'm pretty sure that the auto industry was singled out as one whose collapse could cost a huge amount of jobs in many different areas. This is just one relatively small portion of the stimulus package.
huge amount of jobs in many different areas
What better way to stabalize the econonmy than putting them to work for the government instead? I mean, look at Russia in the 1930s!
All that said, I still think of all the "stimulus spending", this program is probably the one I find the least offensive. First, it's only 3 billion (small change these days), Second, sure, it's a redistribution of wealth and all that, but at least it's a direct redistribution (i.e. from the gov't directly to a person) rather than ten different rent seekers getting their cut along the way.
I find this program the most offensive. If they simply had cut a check for people buying fuel-efficient new cars, and nothing else, it would just be more stimulus bullshit.
And if you think this bill doesn't provoke rent-seeking behavior, you need to look up that term again.
But crushing functional cars that could be used by poor people? That's Obama's and Congress' "drowning kittens in a sack" moment.
Maybe it's a bunch of bullshit but I'm pretty sure that the auto industry was singled out by the unions, automakers, and their political hangers-on as one whose collapse could cost a huge amount of jobs in many different areas.
FTFY, Tony.
The government could, if they wished, have created a program which would offer to purchase any vehicle which failed to pass a state emissions inspection for, say, $1500.- (maybe even as much as $2500.-). The seller would be free to spend that money in any way he or she saw fit. Another, slightly better car, or a trip to Vegas; it makes no difference. There would be a significant marginal gain in pollution reduction.
But, as we all know, the civilian population cannot be allowed to act on their own, without guidance from their political masters.
I can't believe that no one has brought up the point that, given that the program ran out of money so quickly, it's considered successful.
Ergo:
Budgeted (and running) to the end of September and within specified cost = meh.
Ran out of money immediately due to spendthriftness = smashing success!
And these guys claim they are going to bring down the deficit?
I can't believe that no one has brought up the point that, given that the program ran out of money so quickly, it's considered successful.
Might be because to most here that is an obvious and common mistake. You can only beat the inability of government to manage money horse for so long before it starts to really stink.
This is nothing more than a continued bailout for Detroit, by a different name. Yet it backfired on the government-owned car companies (GM and Chrysler) since most purchased were Ford or foreign-owned, non-UAW companies. It seems that people voted AGAINST Obama Motors, even while using Obama Dollars to do so. Irony, Assault, and Battery.
Another part is the stupidity of the entire scam from an economic perspective, that has been detailed in previous messages. A friend of mine (big Obama supporter university professor) commented the other day "Wow--CFC really worked didn't it? Do you know how many cars they sold last week?" I said "Yea, the same number they WON'T be selling in the next 6 months." Amazing how otherwise very intelligent people can't see through this nonsense.
NAL | August 10, 2009, 11:42am | #
I'm surprised no one has pointed out the moral hazard of this program. I, and many others, bought a fuel efficient car (Pontiac Vibe, in my case) long before this program was enacted and I didn't get dookie for it. Others who drive old poluting gas pigs get rewarded with up to $4500.
Actually, I have brought this up before. Apparently, I was "stupid" enough to buy the most fuel-efficient variation of my vehicle. If I had been "wise" and got the big engine with 4wd, I'd have a heavily-discounted new car right now. Oh well, me and my car have been together for a long time and we get along pretty well....
CfC should have been arranged entirely differently. People who owned 30+ mpg cars should have been sent a $4500 voucher if they traded in their fuel-sipper for an even more efficient car before the end of the year. This would have stimulated the sales of very efficient cars, and flooded the used-car market with cars it is currently sorely lacking. More importantly, it would have rewarded the people who did the right thing rather than those who did the wrong thing.
Of course, Republicans would have whined like pigs that Obama was just paying off his enviro-hippie friends with new wheels.
The worst effect of this policy is the fact that it skews the marketplace of disposable income and credit towards some other direction than it might have gone. I am a very slow (business-wise) carpenter in Michigan. No-one is offering my customers $4500 off on a new bath or kitchen. Trust me, my customers only have so much credit to spend. I personally can't afford to take advantage of this giveaway. My customers are buying cars, not kitchens.
I LOVE the fact hat this is "trickle-down economics"--people with the means are subsidized so that people without means will eventually be re-hired.
Also LOVE the irony of lambasting Bush for encouraging Americans to "go shopping" after 9-11, now the Left is encouraging Americans to spend money as a patriotic stimulus!!
Oh, the irony!
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!
This is cute. The Administration WOULD HAVE done the right thing, but those non-majority-having, totally-ineffectual Republicans would have gotten in the way, so we got a shitty program.
Shut up, yo.
The article suggests that its going to make arguments about cash for clunkers as an "idea." But no argument is given! These arguments (and those in the readers response) have all of the rhetorical earmarks of "arguments" from religious nuts. What we see here is folks overcommitted to a religious idea and it wouldn't matter what the Obama admin said anyway so enjoy all the self-satisfaction.
No-one responded to this drivel? No-one? Are we just ignoring him and hoping he'll go away? Good idea.
BTW, Dan, stop replying like this is some SAT verbal section/post-modernist hybrid forum. We're not impressed when you make verbose and obscure retorts that are peppered with $10 words where 75 cents would have bought the half-baked idea you wanted to express.
The Angry Optimist | August 10, 2009,
This is cute. The Administration WOULD HAVE done the right thing, but those non-majority-having, totally-ineffectual Republicans would have gotten in the way, so we got a shitty program.
Are you claiming that Republicans wouldn't have made such an argument? That's really cute!
"Wow--CFC really worked didn't it? Do you know how many cars they sold last week?" I said "Yea, the same number they WON'T be selling in the next 6 months."
That's the point. Can you think of a better way to lengthen a recession with a few billion dollars than by breaking windows? FDR wishes he could have gotten away with that.
The biggest arguments in this story contradict each other: If people are trading in second or third clunker cars for a shiny new one (argument against it #1) then probably weren't planning to replace it a couple of months down the line (argument against it #2).
While I have some real beef with the program (not enough of an MPG increase primarily... Read More), it is doing exactly what it was intended to do: spur sales and replace old cars with new ones. Another effect is the removal of lots of parts for similar other clunkers, which may be more expensive to repair and also junked sooner than anticipated.
The program fits the definition of "stimulus" - it gets money flowing into the economy very quickly. Many of the same people who claim the big stimulus isn't working say that it's not because the money is taking so long to work its way through the system (primarily due to the states), yet here they are complaining because the money was used up too quickly. Also, many Prius-naysayers say that it is better to go from a car that gets 13 mpg to one that gets 18 mpg than it is from one that gets 30 mpg to one that gets 50 mpg. Many of those same naysayers are complaining about this program.
Needless to say, I think it should have required a minimum of 25 in the city, 30 on the highway, but that leaves out most domestic cars, and no lawmaker in their right mind would support a program that only sells Toyotas and Hondas.
Cash for clunkers is another program of the government to reduce fuel. But according to some applicants the application was still hard. There is a big amount of money you will need just for the application. Probably you will need a cash advance just for the processing of the application.
We made some similar points in a recent piece, which shows that the program is neither good for the economy or the environment. See http://www.theamericanconsumer.org/2009/06/30/cash-for-clunkers-may-not-benefit-consumers-or-the-environment/
Best,
Steve
Obama, the magic negro.
Why take good cars and destroy them so NOBODY can use them? I guess everybody can afford NEW since the big CHANGE. That kind of people have done nothing but destroy, destroy, they don't know how to build. What a shameful thing. I bet the poor people have some voting remorse now. How about all the people in the salvage yards, used car sales, paint and body, mechanics? I guess we just box up our money and ship it over seas. Now lets try health care? Banking? and don't forget the debt relief, in California they loose money wile ups and fed ex make money hand over fist?
Cash for clunkers is another program of the government to reduce fuel. But according to some applicants the application was still hard. There is a big amount of money you will need just for the application. Probably you will need a paydayloans just for the processing of the application.
My only point is that if you take the Bible straight, as I'm sure many of Reasons readers do, you will see a lot of the Old Testament stuff as absolutely insane. Even some cursory knowledge of Hebrew and doing some mathematics and logic will tell you that you really won't get the full deal by just doing regular skill english reading for those books
is good
heartening to supporters of President Obama's fiscal stimulus