Reason Morning Links: N.C. Terror Arrests, Moderating Health Care Reform, Support Grows for Legalized Sports Betting

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• Father and his two sons among seven in North Carolina charged with terror plot.

• Six key senators are moving health care reform to the center.

• Some states considering legalizing sports betting to boost revenue.

• Cambridge police release partial audio of Henry Louis Gates arrest.

• Mexico facing increasing political pressure to change its drug war strategy.

NEXT: Miami Vice

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  1. Wait, Michael Jackson died?

  2. So, why was the door jammed again?

  3. Somewhat on-topic:

    Jack Dunphy is guest blogging over at Patterico’s site.

    http://patterico.com/2009/07/28/unreasonable-at-reason/ (Drink!)

    From the comments:

    “I don’t know how many times I have told my daughter, if you get pulled over by the police, just do what they tell you to do. It doesn’t matter if you know you are right, that will be figured out in the end.”

  4. some of the defendants travelled to Israel in 2007 with the intent of waging “violent jihad”, returning home without having succeeded

    That’s got to be a bummer. I came back from a sales trip to Florida empty-handed once, and my boss was pissed.

  5. “Jack Dunphy” is a coward who hides behind a pseudonym AND a badge. Fuck him.

  6. “I don’t know how many times I have told my daughter, if you get pulled over by the police, just do what they tell you to do. It doesn’t matter if you know you are right, that will be figured out in the end.”

    “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
    –Benny F.

    You got owned 200+ years in advance, sheep.

  7. “I don’t know how many times I have told my daughter, if you get pulled over by the police, just do what they tell you to do. It doesn’t matter if you know you are right, that will be figured out in the end.”

    While I agree it is really stupid to argue with the police, even when you’re in the right. To actually believe justice will prevail when a cop is screwing you over is even dumber. The police like it or not are a special protected class in this country, and almost always get their way.

  8. “U.S. and Mexican officials increasingly draw comparisons to Colombia, where from 2000 to 2006 the United States spent $6 billion to help neutralize the cartels that once dominated the drug trade. While violence is sharply down in Colombia, cocaine production is up.”

    What is so ambiguous about that? How in the hell can you consider that a success in fighting teh evil drugz?

    So let’s do it in Mexico and see how it’s working.

    “Drug-related deaths during the 2 1/2 years of Calderon’s administration passed 12,000 this month.”

    How’s that working again?

    The fucking stupidity is unreal.

  9. kilroy,

    tragic how often hubris leads to stupidity.

  10. Redneck Jihadis?

    Hell, I thought violent vegan terrorists was an absurd idea. What’s next?

    -jcr

  11. Hell, I thought violent vegan terrorists was an absurd idea. What’s next?

    Mary Kay Commandos.

  12. if you get pulled over by the police, just do what they tell you to do.

    What if they tell you to give them sexual favors or get arrested on a trumped-up charge?

    Just sayin’…

    -jcr

  13. The commenters at Solanum’s link are so shocked that we might object to the notion that Dunphy thinks that’s is perfectly OK to shoot someone that doesn’t suck his ass during an encounter.

    And the cute part is that Dunphy and his idiot minions, there and on this board, thinks we are too stupid to read between the lines of this thinly-veiled threat:

    Those who brand this as tyranny remind me of the driver who insists on entering an intersection on a green light even as he sees that a car is about to run a red light across his path. “But I had the green light” is a poor choice for an epitaph.

    Shorter Dunphy: Submit and everything will be OK.

  14. Hey Sweet’n’Low, you should copy’n’paste your story from yesterday over there. They’d LOVE that.

  15. Six key senators are moving health care reform to the center.

    It gives a pretty sketchy picture of what the Senators are cooking up. First it says that employers won’t have to pay for employee’s health insurance, then later says, “Employers that do not offer coverage may instead have to pay the cost of any government subsidies for which their workers qualify.”

  16. Mary Kay Commandos.

    If there’s one way I’d like to die before my time, it’s the Mary Kay Commandos. “Local Man Slain by Elite Paramilitary Cosmeticians”.

  17. SugarFree,

    They misquoted you too. The poster refused to spell out “cuntcicle”.

  18. @Cambridge Police

    It becomes clearer and clearer that there was no probable cause to enter (which means that the entry was unConstitutional and Crowley was a trespasser).

    It is less clear, but looking more and more like Sgt. Crowley entered without probable cause because the face he saw in the house was a black one.

  19. Those who brand this as tyranny remind me of the driver who insists on entering an intersection on a green light even as he sees that a car is about to run a red light across his path. “But I had the green light” is a poor choice for an epitaph.

    Essentially, Dunphy is admitting here that the cops are in the wrong (in his analogy, they are the ones running the red light, yes?), but that because of there unchecked power, you should submit because the cop may just kill you (recalling his crack about putting holes in someone who objects to an unjustified search). And he never seems to think there’s anything wrong with this picture.

  20. The seven men made their first court appearances in Raleigh yesterday, charged with providing material support to terrorism. If convicted, they could face life in prison.

    If not convicted, on the other hand, they could face life in prison.

  21. By regulation I mean the nationwide imposition of rules that would prevent insurance companies from denying coverage based on your medical history, or dropping your coverage when you get sick. This would stop insurers from gaming the system by covering only healthy people.
    On the other side, individuals would also be prevented from gaming the system: Americans would be required to buy insurance even if they’re currently healthy, rather than signing up only when they need care.

    Rational decisionmaking is now “gaming the systtem”?

    Shut the fuck up, Paul Krugman.

  22. Art, that was a reference to this.

  23. Art, that was a reference to this.

    Heh. That cover is awesome. Berke Breathed is a madman. Awesomely obscure reference, BTW.

  24. Mexico facing increasing political pressure to change its drug war strategy.

    U.S. officials said they now believe Mexico faces a longer and bloodier campaign than anticipated and is likely to require more American aid. U.S. and Mexican officials increasingly draw comparisons to Colombia, where from 2000 to 2006 the United States spent $6 billion to help neutralize the cartels that once dominated the drug trade. While violence is sharply down in Colombia, cocaine production is up.

    After seeing dead bodies strewn across the landscape, the goal (to put it mildly) unachieved, our government decides “Let’s do it again”.

    Meet the new boss …

  25. “I don’t know how many times I have told my daughter, if you get pulled over by the police, just do what they tell you to do. It doesn’t matter if you know you are right, that will be figured out in the end.”

    What a trusting fool. I hope his daughter knows better.

    Just pretend I linked to 4 or 5 LEO sexual crimes committed under color of authority. Y’all know they’re not that hard to find.

  26. “But Daddy, you TOLD me to anything they tell me to! I feel so dirty…”

  27. drat!

    …to *do* anything…

  28. Rational decisionmaking is now “gaming the systtem”?

    To be fair, P, if you are going to prohibit medical underwriting, you have to mandate the purchase of insurance. Otherwise, all the healthy people will drop out of the system, and it will collapse.

    You could, of course, let insurance companies run their businesses they way they want, and let people run their lives the way they want, but apparently that is not an option.

  29. Just pretend I linked to 4 or 5 LEO sexual crimes committed under color of authority. Y’all know they’re not that hard to find.

    Like getting female detainees to give you a blowjob in exchange for not arresting them for drug possession? Yeah, I know that guy.

    And Fluffy, good on you for taking the argument to Patterico’s.

  30. Berke Breathed is a madman.

    That book had the “Dr. Oliver’s Cat-Sweat Scalp Tonic” series of strips, which were an excellent mini-takedown of the war on drugs (essentially that prohibition causes the crime). Nice to see during the 80’s anti-drug hysteria.

  31. R C Dean, you assume that people, when they have completely screwed up their lives through bad decision making, will accept the consequences with wisdom and humility.

  32. robc,

    Yeah, I noticed that. Cheerlead for the cops being able to shoot the innocent if they complain, but “cuntcicle” offends their delicate sensibilities. Dumbasses.

  33. They also called me a leftist. Hilarious.

  34. The commenters at Solanum’s link are so shocked that we might object to the notion that Dunphy thinks that’s is perfectly OK to shoot someone that doesn’t suck his ass during an encounter.

    Wow SugarFree, he really said that?

    If what he said is so terrible then you shouldn’t need to exaggerate it like a fucking drama queen.

  35. Some of these malefactors sound like science villians to me…

  36. They also called me a leftist. Hilarious.

    I have a feeling that to many of the posters there, the nuances of libertarianism are utterly lost on them. Have a problem with cops overreaching their authority? You must be a leftist!

    Also, I’ll note that one of the posters there quoted the sarcastic “Mao was right” comment (by Xeones?) as if he was seriously promoting Mao. These people just have zero clue what libertarianism is about.

  37. They also called me a leftist.

    Wait- you’re not a leftist?

  38. “These people just have zero clue what libertarianism is about.”

    Conservatives are essentially authoritarians dudes. Liberals like me will argue with you guys about the means, but these guys don’t even have the same ends as we do…

  39. “Cheerlead for the cops being able to shoot the innocent if they complain, but “cuntcicle” offends their delicate sensibilities. Dumbasses.”

    We train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won’t allow them to write “fuck” on their airplanes because it’s obscene!

  40. R C Dean, you assume that people, when they have completely screwed up their lives through bad decision making, will accept the consequences with wisdom and humility.

    I assume that people will quickly figure out that, if they can still get coverage while being wheeled into the OR, they will wait until then to do so, saving all the premiums they would have paid “for nothing” while they were healthy.

    Of course, if you believe, as I do, that the object of this exercise is to kill private insurance and force everyone onto government health care, then banning medical underwriting without requiring everyone to buy insurance is the way to go.

  41. Rejection of Authority is a classic symptom of “leftist-ism”. Any fool knows this.

  42. The commenters at Solanum’s link are so shocked that we might object to the notion that Dunphy thinks that’s is perfectly OK to shoot someone that doesn’t suck his ass during an encounter.

    Wow SugarFree, he really said that?

    Yes, he did. I don’t have the quote handy, but he said something to the effect that you shouldn’t be surprised if a cop puts holes in you if you are less than cooperative, and implied that the cop would be justified in doing so because copping is sooo dangerous.

  43. Rejection of Authority is a classic symptom of “leftist-ism”. Any fool knows this.

    Well, rejection of authority wielded by non-leftists, anyway. Embrace of authority wielded by the Right People is the essence of leftism.

  44. Epi,
    These people just have zero clue. Full stop.

  45. if they can still get coverage while being wheeled into the OR, they will wait until then to do so, saving all the premiums they would have paid “for nothing” while they were healthy.

    Or, if they calculate their out-of-pocket medical expenses over time to be substantially less than the premiums, they will forego medical insurance until such time as old age and decrepitude catch up with them (sez the Voice of Experience).

  46. Yes, he did. I don’t have the quote handy, but he said something to the effect that you shouldn’t be surprised if a cop puts holes in you if you are less than cooperative, and implied that the cop would be justified in doing so because copping is sooo dangerous.

    RC, to Tulpa, changing the jargon used to describe an event is “exaggeration”, even if you don’t change the underlying event.

    So to Tulpa:

    “Aggressively asserting your 4th Amendment rights in such a situation may get you shot,”

    and

    “Failing to suck my ass in such a situation may get you shot,”

    aren’t the same statement. Even though they are.

  47. NC Terrorists,

    In 1991, Boyd and his brother were convicted of bank robbery in Pakistan and accused of carrying identification showing they belonged to the radical Afghan guerrilla group, Hezb-e-Islami, or the Party of Islam.

    Each was sentenced to have a foot and a hand cut off for the robbery, but the decision was later overturned.

    Stiff penalty for early withdrawl!

    These damn flakes seem to be everyplace. They keep reminding me of my worst date ever with a Hamas supporter.

  48. I don’t know how many times I have told my daughter, if you get pulled over by the police, just do what they tell you to do. It doesn’t matter if you know you are right, that will be figured out in the end.

    Assuming she doesn’t have any contraband in the car this is not bad advice. Obviously, contrary to what some literal-minded posters above opined, he is not telling his daughter to perform sexual favors if asked. I would additionally say you shouldn’t consent to searches. But if you act like a smartass lawyer, e.g. opening your window only a crack to slip the drivers license out, as those ACLU instructional videos encourage you to do, things aren’t going to go well. Is this ideal? No — but you drive the roads patrolled by the police force you have, not the one you wish you had. Those who have a problem with common American police behavior (excluding the horrific scandals Radley chronicles) can do some research and find a new country to live in where the police are nice and subservient to all citizens.

    Of course if you have contraband in the car you have to do everything you can to avoid a search, so then you have to be more careful.

  49. From the commentor Corwin: “My daughter (when she was old enough) would watch the COPS tv show with me. We always found it so amusing how some people would stopped for a small infraction – and they would escalate it to such a point that, what would have been just a warning, turned into an arrest.

    I don’t know how many times I have told my daughter, if you get pulled over by the police, just do what they tell you to do. It doesn’t matter if you know you are right, that will be figured out in the end.”

    One or two more point to that show as a means of demonstrating how “uppity people” get in trouble. Reminds me of the Hicks quote:

    “Oh, there’s a threat to America! Yeah, yeah, yeah ? back to that fucking COPS show. ‘Cause I’ll tell you who the threat to freedom ? no, no, not to freedom. I’ll tell you who the threat to the status quo is in this country: it’s us. That’s why they show you shows like fucking COPS. So you know that state power will win and we’ll bust your house down and we’ll fuckin’ bust you anytime we want. That’s the message.” -Bill Hicks

    Also, what bloody text formatting rules do these comments use?

  50. Conservatives are essentially authoritarians dudes.

    Liberals will argue with us, then they will pull the gun just like the authoritarians they are.

  51. It seems to me if a guy reaches in his pockets as if withdrawing weapon or something, then he deserves to be shot. But any level of screaming about your rights certainly does not. Is that so crazy? Jesus, when it comes to cops we are a nation of sheep…

  52. With regard to Krugman, you have to remember that leftists don’t regard the mitigation of individual risk via the mechanism of a premium contract with a better-capitalized counterparty to be the purpose of insurance. Even though that’s what insurance is, they don’t see it that way.

    To them, the purpose of insurance is to pool resources and disburse costs over the widest possible group of individuals.

    So you may think that the purpose of your premium payment is to mitigate risk for yourself, but to them it’s not. To them the purpose of your premium payment is to make funds available to pay the costs of others.

    Therefore, to a leftist, refraining from buying insurance if you regard your personal risk to be lower than the premium required isn’t rational decision-making – it’s a refusal to perform your assigned role in the system, namely to make yourself available to pay your small share of other people’s costs.

    Krugman would regard healthy people opting out of insurance as “gaming the system” even if medical underwriting was still in place.

  53. Whatever you say fletch, look how it’s breaking down in this debate…Or better, yet, pretty much every debate in the courts over the rights of the cops vs. the rights of the police. What side do you find the liberals (ACLU) on about 90%-99% of the time? Conservatives?

  54. Tulpa,

    I think we recognize at this point that you are a fan of all 31 flavors of authoritarianism. You don’t have to keep reminding us.

  55. U.S. and Mexican government officials say the military strategy, while difficult, is working. Since Calder?n took office in December 2006, authorities have arrested 76,765 suspected drug traffickers at all levels and have extradited 187 cartel members to the United States.

    I don’t understand why the good people of Mexico just don’t tell us fuck off. I wouldn’t won’t my child to do for some other crackhead’s drug problem.

  56. Those who have a problem with common American police behavior (excluding the horrific scandals Radley chronicles) can do some research and find a new country to live in where the police are nice and subservient to all citizens.

    Amerikkka, love it or leave it?

  57. fluffy
    Is that what we think about insurance?

  58. “Aggressively asserting your 4th Amendment rights in such a situation may get you shot,”

    and

    “Failing to suck my ass in such a situation may get you shot,”

    aren’t the same statement. Even though they are.

    Ah. So being polite and cooperative is now considered “sucking ass”.

    So assuming you guys have ever had a job where you weren’t self-employed, you had to suck your boss’ ass and probably several customers’ asses also. How did they taste?

  59. “you are a fan of all 31 flavors of authoritarianism”

    Including “jack-booted butter pecan?”

  60. It seems to me if a guy reaches in his pockets as if withdrawing weapon or something, then he deserves to be shot.

    Makes it tough to produce your ID or get your cell phone to call your lawyer, then, doesn’t it?

    A cop has no more right to shoot you than any other citizen does. A cop can shoot you in self-defense. Period.

    A cop has no more right to shoot you for reaching into your pocket during an argument about whether he will come into your house than any drunk in a bar arguing about who was better, Joe Montana or Roger Staubach.

  61. fluffy
    Is that what we think about insurance?

    Yes, it is.

    I read Kos every day, my friend. I follow the health care debate every day. And policy advocates on the left overwhelmingly focus on the “pool” function of insurance, to the virtual exclusion of the individual economic exchanges that make up that pool.

    What else do you think advocacy of “community-based pricing” is? In order to even advocate for community-based pricing, you have to regard the relationship between the individual actuarial risk and the premium payment as irrelevant, and you have to see the total pool costs as the only relevant factor.

  62. Tulpa, that is such a red herring. I’d say “and you know it,” but I honestly don’t think you do.

    The police are not my boss. And my boss isn’t arguing it’s OK to shoot me if I smart off to her.

  63. Ah. So being polite and cooperative is now considered “sucking ass”.

    I think being polite and cooperative to someone who has power over you so they won’t do something bad to you, even though you disagree with them, can be properly termed “sucking ass”, yes.

  64. Also, I’ll note that one of the posters there quoted the sarcastic “Mao was right” comment (by Xeones?) as if he was seriously promoting Mao. These people just have zero clue what libertarianism is about.

    I didn’t click over there because i like my head to stay non-explodey, but really? Awesome! I was referring to that quote about power coming from the barrel of a gun or whatever, which should be self-evident to authoritarians and anti-authoritarians alike. Then those subhuman cop-fellators went ahead and not only proved the Chairman right, but that they approve.

    Guess what, Dunphyites — you’re the Maoists here, not me.

  65. MNG,

    Re: 11:21

    That is probably the best comment you have ever made on H&R.

  66. Xeones,

    Don’t fret. Here’s the level of cognition they have going on over there:

    Sometimes one just has to suck it in and be quiet. We were on a 10 hour military flight to Japan when one of the stewards picked up my three year old and tossed her back in the seat because she kept slipping out of her seat belt. He wasn’t a cop and I had to fight hard to keep from cleaning his clock. The thing that stopped me was the knowledge that I would (a) be charged with assault, (b) charged with interfering with safety of flight, and (c) if not tossed out of the military, would certainly be demoted and cause a financial loss for the family

    We sat on it for 10 hours until we landed. Once off the plane we filled out the report with the cops and let them take it from there.
    Although the steward was not a cop he was in a position of authority and is an example of where self discipline is a must no matter how much in the right one is.

    Seriously, someone is tossing around your three-year-old and you just sit there and take it? Because an air steward has “authority.” Straight up fucking bonkers.

    What’s it like to be so in love with hierarchy?

  67. “A cop has no more right to shoot you than any other citizen does.”

    I agree RC, but if you are a cop, and you confront supsect who could be armed, and after you tell him to freeze he reaches into his coat pocket, what can you do? In a somewhat similiar situation a citizen might have a reasonable belief that he was in danger of imminent serious bodily harm and so could act by opening up…My point is that certainly a person clearly unarmed waving his hands above his head and screaming about his rights does not fall into this category, so we probably agree here…

    robc
    Er, thanks 😉

  68. ‘Tis better to murder one hundred innocent men on the side of the road, than to allow one guilty man to go free.

  69. The way I’ve always thought about insurance is this:

    Everyone pays the premium, though most hopefully won’t need it. What you buy is peace of mind. When someone needs it, they are covered, but since no one wants to be that person, it’s cool.

    I see welfare that way. When you take taxes from me and you what we are “buying” is peace of mind; if we ever develop a crack habit or what not we will be happy it’s there, though we hope we never have to use it…

  70. . . . and after you tell him to freeze he reaches into his coat pocket, what can you do?

    You wait until you CONFIRM the suspect in fact has a weapon.

  71. Everyone pays the premium, though most hopefully won’t need it. What you buy is peace of mind. When someone needs it, they are covered, but since no one wants to be that person, it’s cool.

    Thus confirming that you are not the brightest dude to walk the earth.

  72. And policy advocates on the left overwhelmingly focus on the “pool” function of insurance

    This is my understanding of their position, too: their goal is to force young healthy people to subsidize the costs of caring for old sick people; essential a “taxation” model.

  73. It seems to me if a guy reaches in his pockets as if withdrawing weapon or something, then he deserves to be shot.

    Makes it tough to produce your ID or get your cell phone to call your lawyer, then, doesn’t it?

    Which is why you tell the cop “I’m about to get my cell phone out of my pocket” before doing so (slowly!) and be sure he or she understands before you reach. If the cop has just asked you for ID there’s no problem reaching for your wallet as long as you do it slowly.

    Keep in mind that cops are categorically different from other citizens in one important way: they DO NOT have the option to flee from a seemingly dangerous person. So self-defense for a cop encompasses a lot more than self-defense would for an ordinary citizen.

    I think being polite and cooperative to someone who has power over you so they won’t do something bad to you, even though you disagree with them, can be properly termed “sucking ass”, yes.

    I still don’t see how this excludes your boss or customers at your job. Getting fired is going to harm you more than the usual results of getting sassy with cops.

  74. SugarFree, I saw that too and thought, if someone threw my 3 year old back into the seat, they would need a crowbar to seperate us. That person just left a permanent mark on their child by not coming to their defense.

  75. fluffy
    What you say doesn’t sound too nuts to me. In torts cases liberals often have the position that costs be “spread” out by placing them on the seller who will spread them out equally among all consumers, rather than have them fall in full upon some unfortunate bastard…

  76. “Getting fired is going to harm you more than the usual results of getting sassy with cops.”

    Unless you’re black, a dog, suspected of having drugs, or in your home trying to defend yourself from what you perceive is a break-in.

  77. “I think being polite and cooperative to someone who has power over you so they won’t do something bad to you” is the essence of conservatism (well, with one additional element: liking it and approving it “thank you sir, can I have another!”)

  78. you have to remember that leftists don’t regard the mitigation of individual risk via the mechanism of a premium contract with a better-capitalized counterparty to be the purpose of insurance. Even though that’s what insurance is, they don’t see it that way.

    What a horse shit statement.

    You don’t see “leftists” railing about auto-insurance, life insurance, disability insurance, renters/homeowners insurance, or the insurance that AIG sells to firms.

    But many liberals feel (justly) that HEALTH insurance is different from other kinds of insurance. Health care shouldn’t be something that only those who can afford it directly or only those who can afford ever rising premiums to companies who make money by denying claims after you’ve paid your premiums month after month.

  79. I think we recognize at this point that you are a fan of all 31 flavors of authoritarianism. You don’t have to keep reminding us.

    I’ve been around this blog long enough for most of our gentle readers to know otherwise. You and Episiarch and Fluffy calling me names, distorting what I write, and making ridiculous accusations only serves to undermine your own credibility.

  80. Tulpa,

    To listen to the big pimps here, the proper response to any confrontational situation is to always escalate, especially if that means accusing the other party of sucking dick. Resolving any dispute–whether with the Verizon customer rep or a rouge Denzil Washington Training Day type cop–in any other fashion is the action of a dick sucking pussy.

  81. So self-defense for a cop encompasses a lot more than self-defense would for an ordinary citizen.

    I thought he might conceivably have a weapon so I shot him.

    That’s not self-defense by anybody’s metric, Tulpa. Let me know how that works out for anybody who’s not a cop. I’m betting at the least you get agg assault and if you’re lucky you get to ride Ol’ Sparky.

  82. SugarFree, I saw that too and thought, if someone threw my 3 year old back into the seat, they would need a crowbar to seperate us.

    I am of two minds on this specific case. The writer of the story was being a complete sheep and promoting the idea that we should all graciously submit to being hearded around.

    On the other hand, the writer also acknowledges that he couldn’t keep his kid strapped into a seat during a flight. If I had been the steward, I would have probably told the dipshit to keep his kid on a leash as I threw the kid back into her seat.

    There are few things I hate worse than an oblivious parent that won’t keep his or her children under control in public.

  83. I tamper down my disagreements with my boss. I am also polite and courteuos to him. I suck ass becase it helps make sure that I get a good raise. I may not love it, but in the back of my mind I’m thinking I hope his kids swim meet goes well today.

    I am open minded. I’m not stubborn and I am pragmatically willing to suck ass.

    OTOH,
    When a thug who steals money(taxes) from me and pulls me over with a gun aimed at me(it has happened) and asks for my cooperation I also cooperate, but I also am consciously thinking. “I would be thrilled if somebody sniper rifled him one day.”

  84. But many liberals feel (justly) that HEALTH insurance is different from other kinds of insurance.

    Bullshit. Insurance is insurance. What you want is an new entitlement.

  85. “There are few things I hate worse than an oblivious parent that won’t keep his or her children under control in public.”

    Agreed.

  86. the proper response to any confrontational situation is to always escalate

    You can’t be this delusional. We haven’t said that in the slightest. We’ve said that it is wrong that cops (and their supporters) think that if you mouth off to a cop, you shouldn’t be surprised if you get arrested.

    The fact that you, Tulpa, and others cannot grasp this simple distinction marks you to us as authority-lovers. Sorry if you don’t like that, but hey, then don’t love and defer to authority so much.

  87. Episiarch,

    I’m suprised you were able to type that with your mouth full of cock.

  88. I have many talents, Abdul.

  89. I am open minded. I’m not stubborn and I am pragmatically willing to suck ass.

    Do you work parties?

  90. The fact that you, Tulpa, and others cannot grasp this simple distinction marks you to us as authority-lovers. Sorry if you don’t like that, but hey, then don’t love and defer to authority so much.

    Serious response: it has nothing to do with loving authority. If you are confronted with a person who is abusing authority, how will aggravating that person solve the problem? Can you really aggravate a person who is abusing their authority to the point where they become rational and self-disciplined? Hostile and emotional responses will only makes them more likely to further abuse their authority.

  91. We’ve said that it is wrong that cops (and their supporters) think that if you mouth off to a cop, you shouldn’t be surprised if you get arrested.

    On what level are you saying this? If you’re saying that mouthing off to a cop is not likely to get you arrested, you’re simply wrong. Try it some time.

    If you’re saying that it shouldn’t be likely to get you arrested, then good for you. Given, however, that it is likely to get you arrested in dealing with any of 50 state police agencies and tens of thousands of sheriff’s departments and local police forces scattered across this country, it seems reasonable to conclude that this state of events is an inherent consequence of having a police force operating in an anonymous and impersonal society such as ours is today.

    And the bottom line is — is it really that hard to be polite and cooperative? I’m not talking about performing fellatio/cunnilingus or consenting to whatever search they demand.

  92. “Bullshit. Insurance is insurance. What you want is an new entitlement.”

    Your thoughts on workmen’s comp?

  93. If you are confronted with a person who is abusing authority, how will aggravating that person solve the problem?

    How will passively knuckling under to the abuse help? If looking at the officer and calmly saying “No, I do not consent to a search of my vehicle or person” is “aggravating”, then what other option is there for us citizens? Take the abuse and move on? We don’t all have the resources to file a lawsuit every time a cop hassles us.

  94. T,

    I encourage you not to knuckle under, and to continue to call any person with any authority over you whatsoever–whether legitimate or illegitimate–a dicksucker. Let me know how it works out.

  95. I see welfare that way. When you take taxes from me and you what we are “buying” is peace of mind; if we ever develop a crack habit or what not we will be happy it’s there, though we hope we never have to use it…

    Sort of like a mob protection racket. I like it.

  96. Your thoughts on workmen’s comp?

    You mean the federal mandate that employer’s must by insurance to cover the treatment of illness or injury sustained by an employee during the execution of his or her job?

    Do you want comments on whether or not the federal mandate violates liberatrian principles?

    Or whether or not this “insurance” program is in fact insurance or an entitlement?

  97. If looking at the officer and calmly saying “No, I do not consent to a search of my vehicle or person” is “aggravating”

    Who said this? Certainly not Abdul or I. Can’t speak for him but I explicitly said that refusing to consent does not constitute “mouthing off”. I’m talking about the behavior such as Gates displayed in the incident that started this whole discussion, accusing the cop of racism and such.

  98. Some very sympathetic police officers are going after the president on national TV, and what a surprising coincidence, Joe Biden has suddenly decided to make a donation to the Fraternal Order of Police — for $1 billion:

    BREAKING — “Philadelphia, PA – Vice President Joe Biden and Attorney General Eric Holder today [will announce] $1 billion in grants to fund the hiring and rehiring of law enforcement officers all across the country under the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009. The grants will be awarded to 1,046 law enforcement agencies from all 50 states and will provide 100 percent of the approved salary and benefits for 4,699 officers for three years. ? ‘A big part of the Recovery Act is about building communities – making them as strong as they can be, allowing every American family to live a better life than the one they are leading now,’ said Vice President Joe Biden. ‘And we can’t achieve the goal of stronger communities without supporting those who keep our streets safe.'”

  99. I encourage you not to knuckle under, and to continue to call any person with any authority over you whatsoever–whether legitimate or illegitimate–a dicksucker. Let me know how it works out.

    You seem to assume there’s no middle ground between doing everything the nice pig says, and calling him an ignorant inbred cocksucker. I gave you an example and you respond that I should try calling him a dicksucker. Way to advance the conversation, choadsmoker.

    Seriously, what should the average citizen do? We have Officer Friendly saying nattering about your rights and refusing to comply will get you shot. You seem to think it’s impossible to refuse unlawful police directives in a polite fashion. I just want to know what you think we should do when the po-po decide to screw with us.

  100. Tulpa
    The findings of behavioral economists demonstrate that people have trouble rationally understanding certain risks. Therefore, a dumbass such as yourself may not see the value of some kind of insurance for people who have the misfortune of qualifying for welfare or unemployment or workmen’s comp, etc. So if we don’t let you pay in, but then your wrongly calculating ass ends up in the position to need that, and we are a society that will not allow you to starve, then, yes, we have to make you play along for your own good…As a big Sopranos fan the differences between that and a mob protection racket are pretty clear…

  101. And the bottom line is — is it really that hard to be polite and cooperative? I’m not talking about performing fellatio/cunnilingus or consenting to whatever search they demand.

    Well, it depends, unfortunately.

    If I’m polite and cooperative because that’s what the spirit has moved me to be at that moment, then no, it’s not that hard.

    But if I’m polite and cooperative because fear has crept into my heart and I’m thinking, “Gosh, I better ingratiate myself to this cop, or he might beat me or arrest me,” then unfortunately being polite and cooperative is humiliating and degrading, because you are adopting a subordinate position out of fear, and it’s basically the first moment of Hegelian history played out there on the roadside.

    That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t do that. I would do it, because I’m chicken.

    But you really can’t just ask, “Would it be so hard…?” because that doesn’t supply enough information. “Would it be so hard for a wife to cook a nice dinner for her husband?” No, if the reason she’s doing it is to do something nice, it’s not so hard. But if the reason she’s doing it is because he’ll beat the shit out of her when he gets home if his dinner isn’t ready, then yeah – that’s a pretty hard thing to stomach.

  102. So yeah. I suck a lot of pig cock.

  103. I recall an incident from four years ago. I wasn’t involved but it is collaborated hearsay. A friend of mine got a call from his wife that she had just ran the car into a steep embankment, and was still trapped inside because the car was wedged between trees. He got there ten minutes later, parked his car on the other side of the road, it was an isolated curvy country road. A cop was on the scene and rushed up to him, and said,

    “Sir, you need to move that vehicle. You can’t park there.”

    My friend told him, “My wife is in there.”

    Cop, “I don’t care, you need to-”

    At that point, my friend pulled his hunting knife he had strapped to his belt, and before the cop could move, he had it within a few inches of his chest, and he told the cop —

    “You better get out of my way, are you are a fucking dead man.”

    The cop shut up, and ran to his car, and called for EMS. Meanwhile, my friend helped his wife out by busting out the back window with a crowbar from the car trunk.

    To his credit, the cop never reported my friend, but it just goes to show, cops need to wake up from their fantasy world and learn what is socially appropriate behavior. I have no doubt it gets some of them killed.

  104. The findings of behavioral economists demonstrate that people have trouble rationally understanding certain risks.

  105. Way to advance the conversation, choadsmoker.

    Perfect illustration of my point: any dispute is solvable by calling the other party a passive homosexual.

    If your upbringing didn’t provide you with any conflict resolution techniques by this point, I can’t help you.

    But I will point out that your scenario involves a person who is already abusing authority and committing wrong-doing. If you’re really dealing with a “pig,” a thin-skinned ego-maniac with a gun and a taser, witty insults will not solve the problem.

  106. Of course you pay for those cocks. Not me.

  107. Xeones,

    i like my head to stay non-explodey

    I am so ripping that off man.

  108. I am firmly in agreement with Fluffy that there are people who have decided to always defer to the cops’ authority, and seeing someone not do it pisses them off as it reminds them that they’ve become subordinate through fear, and it makes them feel shitty. This is only reinforced by the endlessly repeated refrain of “is it so hard to be polite”?

    You might as well be saying “roll over too, you’re making me feel like a pussy”.

  109. “You might as well be saying “roll over too, you’re making me feel like a pussy”.”

    BS. I lived on the road for a few years and if there is one thing I leaned, it was that courtesy is an exceptional ally. Be it interaction with a cop, a waitperson or a truck mechanic.

    “Of course you pay for those cocks. Not me”

    A billion dollars to try to get back the cop vote? WHO THE FUCK CAN WE SUE HERE???

  110. But I will point out that your scenario involves a person who is already abusing authority and committing wrong-doing. If you’re really dealing with a “pig,” a thin-skinned ego-maniac with a gun and a taser, witty insults will not solve the problem.

    I certainly see the point you are making, but it reminds me of what I consider to be the central question of Fight Club (unserious movie, but interesting point), ‘how much are you willing to bleed for what you believe.” Some of us may be poseurs, and all talk, but hell, Jack Dunphy and his crew have decided they are not willing to bleed at all, so why should we value their liberty when they have decided to place no value on it at all?

  111. There are few things I hate worse than an oblivious parent that won’t keep his or her children under control in public.

    I’m with you on that one. They are as shameless as their kids will grow up to be. Almost makes me want to stop shopping at Walmart. The only permanent mark on this particular child will be the realization that an air steward is more attentive than dad is.

  112. Some very sympathetic police officers are going after the president on national TV, and what a surprising coincidence, Joe Biden has suddenly decided to make a donation to the Fraternal Order of Police — for $1 billion:

    What a piece of shit this administration has turned out to be. Now I can add vote-buying to the list. God I’m happy I was never a cheerleader for this team. That would make my vote for Dukakis seem like a moment of pride.

  113. I think being polite and cooperative to someone who has power over you so they won’t do something bad to you, even though you disagree with them, can be properly termed “sucking ass”, yes.

    I still don’t see how this excludes your boss or customers at your job.

    It doesn’t, which was my point.

    Keep in mind that cops are categorically different from other citizens in one important way: they DO NOT have the option to flee from a seemingly dangerous person. So self-defense for a cop encompasses a lot more than self-defense would for an ordinary citizen.

    The obligation to flee from a dangerous person is a relatively recent, and unfortunate, addition to the law of self-defense, and has not been adopted everywhere.

    Still, you have a point here. But that point does not extend to giving cops the right to shoot someone unless they reasonably believe they (or someone else) are in imminent danger. Until you see what someone is pulling out of their pocket, you don’t have the right to shoot them, cop or no.

    I agree RC, but if you are a cop, and you confront supsect who could be armed, and after you tell him to freeze he reaches into his coat pocket, what can you do?

    See above. The cop presumably has the suspect under his gun in any event.

    In a somewhat similiar situation a citizen might have a reasonable belief that he was in danger of imminent serious bodily harm and so could act by opening up

    If it turns out the dead man didn’t have a gun at all, I don’t like the citizen’s chances in court.

  114. Here is a sterling example of the human condition that posted on the Dunphy blog linked above:

    One reason (no pun intended) why I am not a “large L” libertarian is the fact that, like comment #2 illustrates, there are a lot of libertarian nuts. The 9/11 truthers and probably even the Obama birthers, are heavily represented in that subset of the population.

    Probably? So there exist a correlation in your mind due to a general dislike you have, and on that basis you condemn us? Very Seventeenth Century Salemish in your thought processes, but hey, who are the condemned to complain.

    After he makes this point, that he believes us to be birthers, he puts this out there –

    The Gates story has turned into a huge moral lesson for the country and the officer has come off looking the most adult of the major principles so far. I just hope he comes home safe from the White House.

    So, you assume we are paranoid birthers, but you also think that Obama might have the cop murdered? WTF!?!

  115. The obligation to flee from a dangerous person is a relatively recent, and unfortunate, addition to the law of self-defense, and has not been adopted everywhere.

    RC,

    I don’t think he was referring to any “duty to retreat.” I think he’s referring to the fact that when I hear that there is a bank robbery in progress, I have no obligation to go to that bank, nor do I have to chase anyone matching the description of the bank robbers. The cop does not have that option.

  116. ChicagoTom,

    But many liberals feel (justly) that HEALTH insurance is different from other kinds of insurance.

    And they are wrong (really).

    Health insurance is exactly like those other kinds. It is risk mitigation to lessen the chance of having to face a large one-time bill that could be difficult to impossible to pay.

    The conversion to a work benefit that even covers regular maintenance is part of the problem.

    Part of my annual eye-exam is covered. Why? How can it possibly be good for ME to pay a middle man to pay something for me that Im going to buy once a year? As a part of my insurance, it makes no sense.

  117. we are a society that will not allow you to starve

    society or government?

    I favor a government that allows you to starve.

  118. Everybody seems to ignore the fact that the cops do not have a legal duty to protect any person or property-except in the most narrow of circumstances. The courts have universally held that no person has the “right” to police protection.

  119. Bibbigslacker, Micahel Stanley Dukakis was one of the 20th century’s most vile, crooked, sleazy politicians.

  120. How can anybody find fault with Epi’s 12:39 post?

    EnoughaboutPalin, the BS is CONFLATING interactions with waitstaff and interactions with cops. Come on, your post is childishly bereft of reason.

  121. Bibbigslacker, Micahel Stanley Dukakis was one of the 20th century’s most vile, crooked, sleazy politicians.

    So Obama isn’t that bad? Are you saying I should feel worse than an Obama supporter? I might just end it all right now. How would that make you feel?

  122. It is a good idea to be polite and calm when interacting with cops, I will certainly agree to that. A sensible person will generally try to be calm and polite in all of his interactions with anyone. But an important point is that it is not against the law to be rude to cops and it is certainly not against the law to assert your rights to a cop.
    The main problem I have with the attitude that you should just do what the cops asks is that cops should not be accustomed to this happening. Refusal to consent to a search only seems like probable cause because so many people have bought into the idea that you should consent, even though you know that no public good will come of your being searched.
    If we all were taught to assert our rights in interactions with police, then we would not be in a situation where knowing your rights is considered evidence that you have something to hide.

  123. MNG, workers comp is a fraud. It is rent-seeking of the first order. It works for insurance companies; not so much for either the worker or the employer.

    Eliminate workers comp and lets go with a straight tort sysytem. Fewer workers would have died or been seriously injured with a straight tort system.

  124. bigbigslacker, Dukakis didn’t win, so you don’t have to carry any guilt about that. Voting for a loser is always a good strategy. That way, whatever happens is not your fault.

  125. At that point, my friend pulled his hunting knife he had strapped to his belt, and before the cop could move, he had it within a few inches of his chest, and he told the cop —

    “You better get out of my way, are you are a fucking dead man.”

    This would be considered unlawful brandishment and assault with a deadly weapon whether the target was a cop or an ordinary citizen. Assuming he wasn’t lying when he told you this, he’s lucky not to have made new friends in a jail cell that night and probably many nights thereafter — and I don’t see any libertarian defense of his actions.

  126. I mean, to correct for the well-known anti-cop reflexes prevalent at H&R, imagine that it was just some busybody citizen who came out and started yelling at him for parking someplace he wasn’t supposed to. How in the universe could you justify threatening that person with a knife?

  127. How in the universe could you justify threatening that person with a knife?

    Natural Selection.

  128. This would be considered unlawful brandishment and assault with a deadly weapon whether the target was a cop or an ordinary citizen. Assuming he wasn’t lying when he told you this, he’s lucky not to have made new friends in a jail cell that night and probably many nights thereafter — and I don’t see any libertarian defense of his actions.

    Gotta agree with Tulpa on this one.

    I support people yelling at cops, “You cops are no good crackas!”

    I do not support people yelling at cops, “I am going to kill you with this knife!”

  129. Zeb-

    Yeah, but Dukakis caused enough damage as governor for 12 years.

  130. Collaboration didn’t come from my friend or his wife. He was only willing to talk about it after the third party came to me to ask about my friend. The other party in this is also some one I know on a first name basis, but he and my friend didn’t know one another. I know, it is complicated, that is why I edited out the details and replaced it with ‘collaborated hearsay’.

    How can I justify those actions? That is kind of an obtuse way to think about an emergency situation like this one, don’t you think?

  131. Tulpa, anti-cop relfexes are good. Again, do you think the revolutionary seccessionists who founded the good ole USA viewed deference to the king’s men as a virtue?

  132. I do not support people yelling at cops, “I am going to kill you with this knife!”

    Not to be mean, but you are both ignoring the context.

  133. I do not think Alan’s friend did anything wrong. The cop was inhibiting the efforts of Alan’s friend to save his wife. End of story.

  134. Anti-cop means pro freedom. Anti-cop means pro elimination of public employee unions. Anti-cop means pro 1776 principles. All good reason to be anti-cop.

  135. I got to agree with alan, context is important. While the guy was technically brandishing and threatening the cop, the cop realized that in the situation, it made sense to step aside instead of being technically correct.

    Unlike Tulpa the slavery supporter, who believes the law is the law, no matter how evil it is.

  136. > A billion dollars to try to get back the cop vote? WHO THE FUCK CAN WE SUE HERE???

    I’m so sorry! Of course we meant a TRILLION.

  137. I’ll note too, the cop has a reputation for being a good guy. He co-owns a pizza joint (his family is Sicilian) and that is where I still see him when I come in every few weeks.

    However, his training made a decent man in this situation a counter productive man, and that has been the substance of my complaints since the Gate’s matter. Cops are flesh and blood, I certainly get that, but he even understood why my friend did what he did, I admit it shocked me when the cop confided in me about it (I was one of the few people who knew both parties).

  138. Bibbigslacker, Micahel Stanley Dukakis was one of the 20th century’s most vile, crooked, sleazy politicians.

    So Obama isn’t that bad?

    Not that I think Dukakis is the worst of the 20th century, but Obama was an obscure local/state pol until the waning moments of the 20th century.

    Obama is in contention for worst of the 21st, though.

  139. I do not think Alan’s friend did anything wrong. The cop was inhibiting the efforts of Alan’s friend to save his wife. End of story.

    This.

    I admit very nearly no limits on what I’d do to get someone out of my way when going to the defense or aid of my spouse.

    And the officer—having pulled his head out of his ass—seems to have done the right thing. This is to be praised and encouraged. Frankly you have to feel a little sympathy for the guy: he must have form an understanding of the situation as he drove up, failed to test it when he got out, and had to reinterpert the whole situation when the protagonist in this little tale did something as unexpected as brandishing a pig sticker at him. A total “Wait! What?” moment.

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