Street Protests, America vs. Iran

Juan Cole, America-hating parade-rainer, has a point:

The kind of unlicensed, city-wide demonstrations being held in Tehran last week would not be allowed to be held in the United States….At the Republican National Committee convention in St. Paul, 250 protesters were arrested shortly before John McCain took the podium. Most were innocent activists and even journalists. Amy Goodman and her staff were assaulted. In New York in 2004, 'protest zones' were assigned, and 1800 protesters were arrested, who have now been awarded civil damages by the courts. Spontaneous, city-wide demonstrations outside designated 'protest zones' would be illegal in New York City, apparently. In fact, the Republican National Committee has undertaken to pay for the cost of any lawsuits by wronged protesters, which many observers fear will make the police more aggressive, since they will know that their municipal authorities will not have to pay for civil damages.

Comments

[Pro Libertate]

He's comparing the controllable with the uncontrollable. He might get to see those kinds of protests here if the attempts of our government to tank our economy in a new and exciting way come to fruition.

[Michael]

Ummm...I don't think those unlicensed, city-wide demonstrations in Tehran are legal there either.

[Zeb]

"Ummm...I don't think those unlicensed, city-wide demonstrations in Tehran are legal there either."

No, but many people what our government to condemn the government of Iran for cracking down on the protests.

[Bean Counter]

Let me get this straight...We should equate arresting a demonstrator who will get bailed out and probably never return for trial with shooting a 14 year old girl to death for peacefully holding a sign after her government nakedly rigged a national election? Of course, the Iranians could have applied for permits, which American protesters do routinely. I'm sure that would make for lots of laughs at the Iranian security headquarters.

[Enough About Palin]

"No, but many people what our government to condemn the government of Iran for cracking down on the protests."

That's right. I was in St. Paul during the RNC convention and the police were shooting people dead in the streets. Some were using razors to slash the protesters. I think the final tally was 354 dead, 1,267 wounded.

What? You didn't hear about that? Well that's because it was ignored by the state-run media.

[douglas gray]

Here is an Iranian take on the whole thing:

http://www.rense.com/general86/hap.htm

It is interesting that their voter turnout is so much larger than ours. So are their turnouts at protests

[Pro Libertate]

I don't doubt we'd see some governmental nasty business if we had mass protests like that, but I doubt there would be a lot of intentional death and mayhem.

[Xeones]

What? You didn't hear about that?

Are you kidding? "St. Paul Bloody St. Paul" is Aimee Allen's next big hit.

[R C Dean]

This kind of idiocy is why any attempt to paint the US as the moral equivalent of repressive regimes is such an embarrassing failure, telling more about the psychological issues of the author than the actual state of play in the world.

[mike]

What kind of civil damages has the Iranian government and reigning political party promised to victims of efforts to squash the protests?

[Cosmotarian Overlord]

Razor wire free speeach zones are awesome...that is what Iranian students are really fighting for...the opportunity to file for a permit to stand in a cage in a alley and shout. Our freedom is so astounding and our media is awesomely honest too.

[bendover]

"Juan Cole, America-hating parade-rainer, has a point:"

With this post Brian Doherty jumps the cosmotarian shark!

Everybody drink!!!

[Fascitis Necrotizante]

What kind of civil damages has the Iranian government and reigning political party promised to victims of efforts to squash the protests?

Requests for $3,000 bullet fees.

[Geotpf]

We were definitely entering Orwellian territory with the three grand bullet bill.

[mike]

Has anybody checked to see how this has impacted the availability of Iranian chicks from the "International Muslim Matrimonial Site" banner?

[monkey on juice]

"We were definitely entering Orwellian territory with the three grand bullet bill."

Have you seen the price of good .308 lately?

[Lamar]

We prefer our intentional deaths on an ad hoc basis. For example, riding the BART in San Francisco could be the last thing you ever do. Police can also break down your door, shoot you and your dog, then escape any culpability. If somebody in the government says you are a terrorist, you can be flown off and tortured.

Blabbering on about "moral equivalency" misses the point. We think Iran is terrible, and yet we are moving in that very direction. More God in government, more police making love to triggers, less freedom and on and on.

[hmm]

The point is more of a splotch.

Vague comparisons with the omission of important facts are vague.

I wonder if anyone has looked at the fact that American protests are rarely armed on the protest side and we live in one of the most heavily armed populations. I wonder if that is because most protests seem to be left oriented. It would be an interesting study for both the US and the world.

Do armed protesters turn a protest into insurrection?

[The Angry Optimist]

most protests aren't armed because we aren't friggin' animals, guys. the equivalency argument is reaching terminal silliness.

[The Driving Strategist]

Successful revolts don't protest they just revolt. Like using a blinker in traffic, why give them intel and where you are going...just go.

[underzog]

That sick, anti Israeli, anti-Semitic bastard Cole. Ann Coulter wrote about the disrupters at the Republican nomination convention. Electing useless Socialists is hardly the same as Persians taking to the streets to protest against Juan Cole's genocidal heroes (who Prof. Cole covers up for with his dishonest they don't really want to wipe Israel off the map).

No Cole doesn't have a point with much of anything!

"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"

[ChicagoTom]

That's right. I was in St. Paul during the RNC convention and the police were shooting people dead in the streets. Some were using razors to slash the protesters. I think the final tally was 354 dead, 1,267 wounded.

The Kent State shootings never happened either, right?

What is it with people who want to insist American excpetionalism?

Time and again our government has shown a willingness to ignore the Constitution and violate our people's rights. They have shot protesters dead in the streets, and have bashed skulls (the DNC in Chicago is an example of that).

I'm not saying we are as bad as Iran, but to pretend like there is no similarities to oppressive regimes and that we would never do anything like that is the height of naivete.

[ChicagoTom]

We think Iran is terrible, and yet we are moving in that very direction. More God in government, more police making love to triggers, less freedom and on and on.

Not only that...Iran doesn't have a Constitution which codifies the right to assemble and protest, yet Americans are still rounded up and arrested for it, and yes sometimes shot at (sometimes real bullets sometimes rubber ones) for exercising that right.

[aix42]

I agree with Lamar's point, even if it could be deconstructed into a collection of isolated incidents....

Greenwald scored a nice shot on Obama's recognition on the power of Nada's Youtube death while suppressing photos of America's torture program. Torture seems to have a ballpark 50% support with the American public, even though America does not torture. Unless Al kidah tortures a dude to say things America dislikes and makes 'em torture him again. Gooooo Kafka M Catch 22!

[TrickyVic]

"""I don't doubt we'd see some governmental nasty business if we had mass protests like that, but I doubt there would be a lot of intentional death and mayhem."""

"The guardsmen fired 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others"

Kent state of course. Maybe that's not a lot. But hey, our government would never do it again. 😉 Nor would our government wipe out half of a family because dad finally gave in to modify a weapon for a government agent.

""""Let me get this straight...We should equate arresting a demonstrator who will get bailed out and probably never return for trial with shooting a 14 year old girl to death for peacefully holding a sign after her government nakedly rigged a national election? """

Shooting one person? Come on she was going to kill them with that sign, well, that's what our S.W.A.T. teams would have said if it were them. Our cops kill people for doing less than what she did, and their dogs.

I don't find the street protest comparison useful. Government will kill you if they feel it's necessary, even if it isn't. Doesn't matter if the government is a democracy, theocracy, or a constitutional republic.

"""Successful revolts don't protest they just revolt. Like using a blinker in traffic, why give them intel and where you are going...just go."""

I agree. That's partly why I don't call this a revolution.

[Fluffy]

Let me get this straight...We should equate arresting a demonstrator who will get bailed out and probably never return for trial with shooting a 14 year old girl to death for peacefully holding a sign

Although the Iranian government is obviously much worse on civil liberties than the US, one would not be remiss to point out that the Obama administration's official statements effectively demand for Iranians a right to assemble without government interference or regulation that we don't actually possess here, either.

There's nothing wrong with making that observation. Whether it gets your panties in a knot or not.

And I have to tell you: If 200,000 Americans took to the streets of a major city, refused to get a permit, and refused to disperse, someone would get killed. That doesn't make what the Iranian government has done any better, but it's a fact.

[hmm]

most protests aren't armed because we aren't friggin' animals, guys.

What does being armed have to do with acting like an animal? I didn't say violent protest, mention anything about shooting or killing, or even infer the use of arms. Just that the US is often called the most heavily armed country in the world, yet arms are rarely if ever present at any form of protest, violent or not.

The assumption of automatic use of arms if present seems prejudice and almost as if people are animals since such a presence would automatically indicate a use.

[jtuf]

In the US, there were protest zones and those who protested outside the protest zones recieved compensation for being arrested when they won civil suits.

In Iran, there were no protest zones. The Iranian government did no provide any legal option fof protesting. Those beat by the police for protesting have no legal recourse.

[Paul]

Juan Cole, America-hating parade-rainer, has a point:

don't worry though, his hair will grow over it.

The kind of unlicensed, city-wide demonstrations being held in Tehran last week would not be allowed to be held in the United States....

Really now? I was actually at this protest, and it was butt-wild.

some random pics:
http://www.gapsucks.org/gwa/history/wto/timephoto1.jpg
http://schrier.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/dec1_wto_seattle.jpg
http://cdntn.madison.com/images/articles/tct/2008/08/06/80543.jpg

I was even on this corner for a while:

http://inlinethumb52.webshots.com/42867/2428258980105101600S600x600Q85.jpg

Point being, that a protest which comes kind of out of nowhere, not at a stupid political convention, can and will occur in this country.

I do admit, however, that the nation learned from WTO, which is probably why every mayor in america is very anxious about repeating the WTO protest scenario.

[Tulpa]

I'm not saying we are as bad as Iran, but to pretend like there is no similarities to oppressive regimes and that we would never do anything like that is the height of naivete.

So we're not as bad as Iran, but we are similar to Iran. Got it. You and MNG have this doubletalk thing down pretty well.

[Tulpa]

You're also comparing a society with state-run media, heavy internet censorship, and unelected men in the highest positions of power to the US. The RNC protesters had plenty of other avenues to express their dissatisfaction with Bush besides showing up right at the location of the RNC.

I don't like "free speech zones" either, but those restrictions don't clamp down even remotely as much on protests as what the Iranian regime is doing.

[Fluffy]

I don't like "free speech zones" either, but those restrictions don't clamp down even remotely as much on protests as what the Iranian regime is doing.

That's not the point.

What we do doesn't have to be as bad as what Iran does to make a statement from Obama saying, "The universal rights to assembly and free speech must be respected and the United States stands with all who seek to exercise those rights," ironic and amusing.

Most people have little problem finding the humor in Obama statements claiming a love of free markets. It's equally easy to find humor in a statement from the US head of state lauding the right of free assembly, if you're willing to apply the same high standard you'd apply to an Obama statement about free markets.

[underzog]

Why are these Israel bashers so keen to exonerate the terroristic government of Iran?

Could it be because Iran under Achmadinijad will be the vanguard to destroy Israel?

[radar]

Um, you do realize that Kent State was in 1970, don't you? You know, 39 years ago? Have we had a lot of instances of protesters being shot at since then?

American exceptionalism does NOT imply that nothing bad will ever happen in the United States. Humans, being human and all, will do bad and stupid things. Some of them will be in positions of power, so something like Kent State happens. However, in the US you have a very reasonable expectation of your ability to protest against the government without anything worse than a quickie arrest that will be over with before happy bour. In Iran, you have a reasonable expectation of being clubbed over the head and possibly shot to death, because this has happened quite a bit.

In other words, drawing any parallels between the United States and Iran when it comes to the right of citizens to assemble and protest is simply silly.

[Abdul]

Where American cities and states implement time, place, and manner restrictions on certain protests, they do not significantly limit anyone's ability to protest the government. Non-protestors also have rights and the the time, place, and manner restrictions allow everyone who doesn't care what hippies have to say to go about their lives.

In Iran, there's no way to express certain disagreements with the government. It's not a matter of a time, place, and manner restriction, it's a matter of message restriction. Mass gatherings in Iran in support of the government are always legal, but the smallest anti-government expression is always illegal.

[Granite26]

Article looks like it's making the Republicans out to be the bad guys, but don't both parties play by those rules?

Besides, Protests stopped being legitimate when they went from 'express our mass displeasure' to 'use our mass displeasure to stop you from engaging in normal activities'

[TrickyVic]

"""However, in the US you have a very reasonable expectation of your ability to protest against the government without anything worse than a quickie arrest that will be over with before happy bour."""

Tell it to this guy
http://www.guzer.com/videos/how-to-stop-a-biker.php