Even Illegal Immigrants Don't Want to Live In California Anymore

You know that your state is in trouble when even illegal immigrants have stopped moving there.

Since 2006, illegal immigration to the United States seems to be leveling off, after a huge spike in the 1990s and early '00s. These days, we're holding steady at a crop-pickin', lawn-mowin', dish-washin' 11.9 million.

The immigrants who do come, according to today's Pew Daily Number, have been shifting to states other than the traditional California option. Since the state is in a spending binge, population bleed, and general downward spiral, you have to give the illegals credit for being forward looking.

More on illegal/undocumented/unauthorized/differently papered immigrants here.

Comments

[Brittanicus]

Americans better wake up, because we are definitely going to get financially overwhelmed with another BLANKET AMNESTY. E-Verify a unique weapon against illegal immigration in the workplace, but must be implemented permanently. It should be enforced for every worker, no matter how long they have worked for any business? There are hundreds of thousands of foreign nationals, working on all rungs of the business ladder, without their immigration status being scrutinized? Don't let the special interest lobby of globalists and open border insane ideology steal American jobs. They want as much cheap labor as they can cram into our nation, to lower wages in their agenda. E-verify can and will identify foreign labor and errors can be resolved by approaching your Social Security Agency. Its certainly obvious Illegal aliens will stay well away from this government office.

DEMAND E-VERIFY FROM YOUR INDIFFERENT SENATORS. JUST AS WE VOTED THEM IN--THEY CAN BE THROWN OUT. STOP ANOTHER 20 million plus illegal family Blanket AMNESTY before it's too late? REMEMBER MILLIONS MORE WILL RUSH OUR BORDER, ONCE THE WORD GOES OUT OF AMNESTY.

A resounding--NO--to any AMNESTY. Outside of this--NOTHING WILL HAPPEN--EXCEPT ANOTHER PRE-ARRANGED AMNESTY, THAT TAXPAYERS WILL GET THE BILL FOR IN INFINITY, IF WE DON'T SPEAK UP? READ ABOUT THE IRREVERSIBLE OVERPOPULATION NIGHTMARE. Digest more of the facts and unbiased truth at NUMBERSUSA, JUDICIALWATCH,CAPSWEB, ALIPAC, AMERICANPATROL. Find out undisclosed news and the numbers of illegal aliens in the penal system at THEDARKSIDEOFILLEGALIMMIGRATION & ILLEGALIMMIGRATIONDAILY. This is information you need to understand remains hidden by the liberal national press and the Congress.

[The Angry Optimist]

that first map doesn't tell me anything. you mean the four states with the largest populations have the largest immigrant populations? No shit?

[Episiarch]

Brittanicus is not as entertaining as LoneSchmuck, and he posts walls of text. I'm giving him a C-, or maybe even a D+.

[Some Guy]

Brittanicus, why are you against having these people pay taxes?

[Pro Libertate]

I find his sturm und drang refreshing. What he lacks in skill and finesse he more than makes up in passion and zealousness. Also, his lack of actual links or even URLs was a subtle twist on the post-post-modern world of so-called web logging.

I give him a B-.

[jr]

Cuing LoneWacko and his ignorant tirades about immigrants in 3, 2, 1.........

[JLM]

Brittanicus,

Have you asked the tough questions and posted the videos on youtube?

[Naga Sadow]

Pro Lib,

Stupid people are usually zealous in their stupid ways. I see no reason to give Brittanicus a step up because "He tried his best". I would go with a D- because he didn't post links about the dangers of HFCS or ask politicians questions and post them to youtube.

[Naga Sadow]

JLM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*shakes fist at JLM*

[MikeP]

Also, his lack of actual links or even URLs was a subtle twist on the post-post-modern world of so-called web logging.

But how can we learn if we can't click?

[Jonas]

Is no one else having a problem with the graphics covering up most of the text?

[JLM]

Jonas,

I can't see the first half of the post because of that.

[Naga Sadow]

I can't even read the top half of the article, Jonas.

[Brittanicus]

"I'm giving him a C-, or maybe even a D+."

and

"I give him a B-."

Could I raise my grade if I sent you each pics of me blowing myself?

[Naga Sadow]

Damn you, JLM!

Quit stealing my posts!

[Naga Sadow]

Ah. The inevitable spoofs. Good times begin now.

[bigbigslacker]

Only messed up with Internet Explorer. Looks OK in Firefox. That's OK though, cuz a picture is worth a thousand partially covered words.

[Episiarch]

ProL:

Wall of text = - 1 full grade point

ALL CAPS = - 1 full grade point

Being a huge douche = - 1 full grade point

Joining words together like LoneDope = + .5 grade point for irony, even if unintentional

[Naga Sadow]

Epi, I'm confused. Since all trolls are huge douche's, how can that be part of the grade? Clearly you need to read over Queensbury Rules for trolling.

[Pro Libertate]

Episiarch,

You have no appreciation for the art.

Naga,

Ditto.

MikeP,

That's the point of his message.

[J sub D]

Brittanicus gets a gentleman's C from this comment professor.

Fuck, we let the damned Irish in, what's another influx of papist scum really gonna hurt?

[Episiarch]

Since all trolls are huge douche's, how can that be part of the grade?

Not true. I would have given Neil an A. See, when you're sincerely a douche, you lose points. When you're faking douchebaggery, and doing it well, you don't lose points.

You have no appreciation for the art.

My appreciation of trolling relates to yours like an appreciation of Kandinsky relates to Warhol. I'm just that much above you, that you can't even see me.

[Naga Sadow]

J sub D, you fool! They don't bring the Trinity but quetzalcoatl!

[Naga Sadow]

So Juanita would get an A?

[MikeP]

Has anyone else noticed the interesting choice of the Pew Reseach Center to use the dulcet hues of the Latina Maiden Sherwin-Williams color palette?

[JLM]

Naga-

THEY'RE MINE NOW!!! I'LL GET YOUR LITTLE DOG, TOO!!!! HA HA HA HA!!!!

[Episiarch]

Juanita is too heavy-handed. B.

The higher grades go to trolls who are not serious (unlike, seemingly, Brittanicus or LoneIdiot), yet can get people to frequently--and seriously--argue with them because their statements hit exactly the right nerves.

People will jump all over Juanita's statements, because they are formed to be exactly the arguments of the worst drug warriors. So that works, but Juanita has no personality, so the grade goes down. Neil had personality and he said perfect TEAM RED stuff, complete with bad punctuation/spelling and "lol"s. A.

[Naga Sadow]

I'm going with J sub D on this one and giving her an A. Sorry but no personality? How did she hook him then?

[Brittanicus]

Maybe if I blew all the illegals in the country they would leave.
However, I don't want to take jobs from American born hookers.
These are the dilemmas you face when you stand up for your country.
Something that no one in here would understand.

[Silentz]

Maybe if I blew all the illegals in the country they would leave.

Wait, what?
Do you bite or something?

[Pro Libertate]

Episiarch,

You're not even a Type I commenter. I'm a Type III, using the power of an entire galaxy to post comments on this blog.

Say, why did Cesar leave, anyway? Everyone loved Neil. Surely the ban hammer wasn't used? If it was, I'd like the ban lifted and Cesar invited back. In fact, I think Cesar should be given a triumphal procession at Hit & Run, with togas, chariots, captured enemies in chains, and Episiarch whispering to him reminders of his mortality.

[BakedPenguin]

Epi, don't forget that in addition to all that, Neil had an entire worldview. He wasn't just a one note wonder, like Juanita, LW or Underzog. An entirely false system of beliefs based on a set of completely fictional values. Also, a website set up to express those phony values.

Now that was impressive trolling.

[MaryJ]

Wow, fascinating! California is such a dump that even uneducated Third Worlders are fleeing from it along with native-born tax base. Let's have completely open borders as advocated by Reason, so that the rest of the US can look just like California! Makes sense. to me.

Do you not understand that one of the reasons California is on a "spending binge" is because the huge Hispanic population votes for big spending liberal Democrats every time, and keeps putting pressure on our "representatives" to give bigger and biggier entitlement bennies to their illegal kin from south of the border.

Democracy, welfare statism and open borders = the Third World disaster that is California.

[Pro Libertate]

I like to think that Neil is still out there somewhere, faking out liberal nutjobs with his almost plausible mock-conservatism.

[Naga Sadow]

Correct MaryJ. That's why Europe is so socialist. To didn't keep out the Mexicans. Native voters driven by ideology aren't the blame for California's budget problems, just immigrants. Or would you rather I type IllegalMexicans?

[Naga Sadow]

Damn English, damn Joe, and damn his lawz!!!

[MikeP]

Do you not understand that one of the reasons California is on a "spending binge" is because the huge Hispanic population votes for big spending liberal Democrats every time, and keeps putting pressure on our "representatives" to give bigger and biggier entitlement bennies to their illegal kin from south of the border.

Only 15% of the voting population in California is Hispanic. 70% is white.

Care to rephrase your rant?

[24AheadDotCom]

Katherine Mangu-Ward writes: crop-pickin', lawn-mowin', dish-washin'

Good thing she didn't say "cottin-pickin'", otherwise where she's coming from would have been obvious to even more people. She also fails to note that in addition to washing her dishes, they also do other things such as provide a power base for the tax-lovin' Dems and money-lovin' foreign governments. In fact, for a few countries, the money their people send home make up a huge percentage of their revenues. That's not good public policy.

P.S. If anyone would like to see some of the ways that Reason and other hacks try to mislead you, see my list of pro-amnesty immigration talking points. I believe all of those have been used at various times by various Reason contributors in an attempt to mislead you.

[Lalalalove]

So really, all you xenophobes gotta do to scare away the brown scary migrants is tank your economies. Keep America pure.

[The Angry Optimist]

Alright Chris Kelly, I'll bite:

In fact, for a few countries, the money their people send home make up a huge percentage of their revenues. That's not good public policy.

Why is that "not good public policy"? Isn't it true that the revenue from products that Toyota manufactures and sells here goes back to CEOs in Japan? Isn't it true that companies with foreign headquarters frequently trade money for United States labor? So why is it bad if the United States trades money for foreign labor?

[juris imprudent]

In fact, I think Cesar should be given a triumphal procession at Hit & Run, with togas, chariots, captured enemies in chains, and Episiarch whispering to him reminders of his mortality.

Speaking of which, the irony in a Buchananite rant from someone adopting a pig Latin name for a country overrun by swarthy Mediterraneans. I think that picks up 2 points for a C+ overall.

I unfortunately must deduct 2 points for the insult that I am not smarter than an undocumented worker since I still live here on the lower left coast. Even if true, I'm doing the grading and the troll must suffer.

[Naga Sadow]

TAO! You're breaking protocol! You do NOT engage conversation with his LoneWackiness Chris Kelly!!! Don't make me lobby for your ban again.

[The Angry Optimist]

oh come on, Naga! I doubt he has a decent answer anyway. After all, if I make money here and send it to another country, where's the harm in that?

As a matter of fact, that's a proud tradition of immigrants: go forward, make your fortune, send the money back and eventually send for the kids.

[juris imprudent]

So why is it bad if the United States trades money for foreign labor?

In the case of Mexico, this is what sustains the political economy of that country - a system which is not very free and more than a little corrupt. The U.S. is the great safety valve, letting the ambitious earn more than they could at home (and ironically repatriating those earnings) and keeping them from agitating for political change. What more could the Mexican elite ask for?

[The Angry Optimist]

great, juris, so it's win-win. Mexico gets rid of its "rabble" and hurts its own interests in liberalizing and it gives us cheap, ambitious labor.

My god. you're right...it's the Brown Apocalypse.

[Naga Sadow]

TAO/AR,

Assume that any insults/chiding I post is in jest. You will rarely be wrong.

[The Angry Optimist]

indeed, sir. I'll just assume that you're hammered on either sake or cab sauv.

[Naga Sadow]

I'm mainly Merlot, actually. Sake? I rarely drink it. I just serve a lot of it.

[juris imprudent]

TAO, I was looking at it more as what is bad for Mexico overall - not so much for the U.S. I've always been greatly amused at Buchanan - the descendent of some of the most maligned immigrants ever to set foot on this land. Likewise the Mexicans who cherish the saying about Mexico being so far from God and so close to the U.S.

[JB]

Mexicans are so forward looking they not only ran Mexico into the ground, but they helped with California as well.

I look forward to more articles demanding we import millions more Mexicans so they can help run the rest of this country into the ground.

[Tulpa]

Maybe if I blew all the illegals in the country they would leave.

That only works if you bite.

[The Angry Optimist]

JB - last time I checked, it was mostly native Americans (note: white folks, not casino-types) who kept voting for big spending and welfare programs and lobbied to keep banks afloat and to take over GM.

So, it's funny that you blame Mexicans. One would almost think you have something against them.

juris - sorry, I wasn't sure where you were coming from.

[Naga Sadow]

(note: white folks, not casino-types)

ROFLMAO!!!

[Mike Laursen]

REMEMBER MILLIONS MORE WILL RUSH OUR BORDER, ONCE THE WORD GOES OUT OF AMNESTY.

Umm, my Caps Lock-challenged friend, Brit, the post was about how they're doing the opposite of rushing our borders.

[Carson]

Did you ever wonder where the money for things like the subversion of the world's immigration laws may come from?

It seems to me as long as we allow people to print up fiat money there will ve no place in the world where freedom can flourish.

If the Globalist oppose your efforts, paid for with real hard earned money, all the have to do is fire up the presses and shovel the money to any group that will oppose you.

Not only that but it seems they do it in such a way that the money to achieve THEIR goals is borrowed from them. Then we pay interest to a group outside of our country, like the Federal Reserve, on the creation and borrowing of OUR OWN money.

IN ESSENCE THEY BEAT US WITH OUR OWN STICK!

[StokeyBob]

I think they should uphold the rule of law and govern by the rules set forth by the United States Constitution, as they swore they would with their oaths of office.

Back in the sixties the government came into the schools and brainwashed us with the idea we needed to control the population because it was rising so fast. They said the roads would become crowded and we would run out of things like water.

They unleashed abortions, birth control pills, and other forms of Family Planning.

To allow the country to be over run with the criminals in businesses illegal labor while the criminals in the government aid and abet the invasion is a travesty against mankind.

They have seen to it our children were killed to control the population at the same time allowing the world to export their population problems here.

What about our sacrifices, many made against our will?

P.S. We still haven't recovered from the last time the criminals in business were allowed to bring in their slaves.

[Vizion]

Illegal immigrants are culpable (though not entirely) of the poor condition California is in.

Allow me to preface I welcome all immigrants to be Americans as long as they are educated, skilled, willing to assimilate, and most importantly GO THROUGH THE LEGAL CHANNELS.

That said, let's take a look on negative effects of illegal immigrants on California's achievement levels. Most of the the millions of illegal aliens who invaded America are uneducated with low-skills and unwilling to assimilate. How in the world is America is going to be the forefront of advancement and maintain economic superpower status when these people invade America by the millions annually? If you want America to maintain it's high living standards then you ought to be concerned

Illegal aliens are far less educated than the U.S. population as a whole. A recent study http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/107.pdf states that illegal alien adults between the ages of 25 and 64 are disproportionately uneducated and unskilled when compared to U.S. citizens or legal immigrants. Nearly 29% of illegal aliens in the United States possess "less than a ninth-grade education; an additional 18% have some high school education but have not completed high school."This compares to 2% and 6% of U.S. citizens in that age range who, respectively, have not reached the ninth-grade level or the equivalent of a high school degree. That means almost half of illegal aliens are high school dropouts. Younger illegal aliens (ages 18 to 24) do not fare much better: 40% of illegal aliens in that age group have not completed high school, compared to 15% of legal immigrants and 8% of U.S. citizens in the same age group.

Pew Hispanic study states that the fact that illegal aliens tend to be unskilled and uneducated reveals why illegal alien adults are also disproportionately represented among the poor. Pew found that 21% of illegal aliens inside the United States are considered "poor" (compared to 13% of legal immigrant adults and 10% of U.S. citizen adults). Additionally, illegal alien adults and their U.S.-born children account for 11% of the total U.S. population living below the poverty level, "twice their representation in the total population."

Illegal aliens' "anchor children" are lowering our academic achievement levels.

California ranks next to last in states where the adult population has at least a high school education, according to a report released by the California Faculty Association at Cal State Los Angeles.

Ranking 49th out of 50 states is an indication of the state's deteriorating educational status in recent decades, according to "California at the Edge of a Cliff," by Thomas G. Mortenson, a senior scholar at the Pell Institute for the Study of Opportunity in Higher Education and publisher of the Postsecondary Education Opportunity newsletter. He believes California is arrogantly riding on its past; spending a lot of money and getting unsatisfactory results.

Mortenson has just released a report on higher education, prepared for the California Faculty Association http://www.calfac.org/calattheedge.html. He said he was "stunned to see how far and how fast California has fallen." In the share of adults with a bachelor's degree, California was No. 1 or No. 2 from 1977 to 1987. Today the state is No. 14. As of 2007, California ranked 14th in the nation in terms of college educated members of the workforce over 25 years of age "a big drop, a drop from 1987. According to the report, Mortenson said:

"Other states have made greater gains in building a college educated workforce and moved past California. California is slipping toward educational and economic mediocrity among states on this critical measure of state competitiveness, prosperity and success."

The really bad news, however, is in the share of adults who are high school graduates. In one generation, California has dropped from the top to the bottom. The state was No.1 or No. 2 in this category from 1977 to 1987; today California is No. 49.

Because non-English-speakers are so common in California - only 62.3 percent of California's children have parents who are fluent in English, compared to the national average of 84.3 percent, it is difficult to raise the averages for student potential for all students, including children of US citizens.

A "Smartest State" designation is awarded based on 21 factors chosen from Morgan Quitno's annual reference book, Education State Rankings, 2006-2007. To calculate the Smartest State rankings, there are 21 factors divided into two groups: those that are "negative" for which a high ranking would be considered bad for a state, and those that are "positive" for which a high ranking would be considered good. States are assessed based on how they stack up against the national average. The end result is that the farther below the national average a state's education ranking is, the lower (and less smart) it ranks. The farther above the national average, the higher (and smarter) a state ranks. This same methodology is used for our annual Healthiest State, Safest and Most Dangerous State and Safest/Dangerous City Awards.

Where does California stand in these rankings - 47 out of 50 states? (Mississippi is 48th.)

The yearly rankings of state education standings shows that states that allow in massive numbers of illegal aliens feel the effect directly in their education system. The 2005-2006 findings reported in a survey by Morgan Quitno Press, which looked at hundreds of public school systems in all 50 states shows that out of the bottom five states, 4 of them have massive numbers of illegal aliens.

46. California
47. Nevada
48. New Mexico
49. Mississippi
50. Arizona

Moreover, they are less likely to have any post high school degrees. "Nearly half (49.8%) of Asian Americans, nearly a third (30%) of non-Hispanic Whites, 17.3% of non-Hispanic Blacks, and just over a tenth (11.4%) of Hispanics or Latinos had a four-year college degree. The same ethnic differences decrease significantly at the high school level with 89.4% of non-Hispanic whites, 87.6% of Asian Americans, 80.0% of African Americans, and only 57% of Hispanics or Latinos having graduated from high school."

http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/p20-550.pdf

Is it racist to want your country to have an highly educated populace? America is inching towards a third world as long as illegal aliens, mostly who come from and through Mexico, keep coming.

Illegals drain on the economy is enormous in California and the country as a whole.

A quick run down:

-- They are drying up our public school budget dollars. Breaking the Piggy Bank: How Illegal Immigration is Sending Schools Into the Red notes that "The estimated costs of educating illegal aliens and their children exceed 28.6 billion dollars in 2004 alone.

http://www.mnforsustain.org/immg_costs_of_educating_legal_illegals_fai r.htm

-- "The proportion of immigrant-headed households using at least one major welfare program is 33 percent, compared to 19 percent for native households."

http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/mexico/mexico.pdf

--Many hospitals in areas with a high concentration of illegal immigrants in California have closed down because illegals are not paying their bills (it costs a lot to deliver those "anchor babies").

According to her study, 84 California hospitals are closing their doors as a direct result of the rising number of illegal aliens and their non-reimbursed tax on the system.

"Anchor babies," the author writes, "born to illegal aliens instantly qualify as citizens for welfare benefits and have caused enormous rises in Medicaid costs and stipends under Supplemental Security Income and Disability Income."

In addition, the report says, "many illegal aliens harbor fatal diseases that American medicine fought and vanquished long ago, such as drug-resistant tuberculosis, malaria, leprosy, plague, polio, dengue, and Chagas disease."

While politicians often mention there are 43 million without health insurance in this country, the report estimates that at least 25 percent of those are illegal immigrants. The figure could be as high as 50 percent.

Not being insured does not mean they don't get medical care.

Under the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1985, hospitals are obligated to treat the uninsured without reimbursement.

http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/cosman.pdf

-- The average annual cost to house an inmate in California is $35,587. Illegal immigrants comprise 15 percent -- roughly 26,000 inmates -- of the state's prison population. http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Lawmaker-to-Feds-Pay-Californi a-for-Illegal-Immigrants.html

The cost of incarcerating illegal aliens in California's prisons and jails amounts to about $1.4 billion a year (not including related law enforcement and judicial expenditures or the monetary costs of the crimes that led to their incarceration).

-- Based on estimates of the illegal immigrant population in California and documented costs of K-12 schooling, Californians spend approximately $7.7 billion annually on education for illegal immigrant children and for their U.S.-born siblings. Nearly 15 percent of the K-12 public school students in California are children of illegal aliens.

The estimated cost of illegal immigrants in California alone and their "anchor babies" is 10.5 billion dollars a year.

But they give a net contribution to the economy, right? Wrong. The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecen tersf134 has a fairly recent article, The Estimated Cost of Illegal Immigration, where the net number is put at $24.4 Billion. However some experts say almost twice that much is being sent out of the country.

In California, state and local taxes paid by the unauthorized immigrant population go toward offsetting these costs, but they do not come near to matching the expenses. Their main contribution would be sales taxes but there is no way they can afford to be big spenders.

[The Angry Optimist]

Vizion - tl;dr

[Marc]

Vizion gets an F+ for making my fingers tired trying to scroll past him.

[24AheadDotCom]

Here's the editor of a Hispanic site discussing the - dare I say it - anti-liberty scheme that libertarians try to force on Mexico.

Here's a scary chart showing the GDP% for various countries due to money sent there from their nationals.

For some very unhealthy numbers, here's the percentage of several countries' population that lives in the U.S.

Let me take this opportunity to add another item to the list of things that "libertarians" support. Not only do they support giving power to the far-left, and not only do they support massive government handouts, and not only do they support MassiveSubsidies, but they also support propping up corrupt, anti-liberty governments.

[wampus]

You can't have open borders without dismantling the welfare system. You just can't. It's not sustainable.

[juris imprudent]

Vizion scores an RC'z law in the first two sentences.

And what is with the dugal dude, does LW actually have a fanboy?

[MikeP]

You can't have open borders without dismantling the welfare system. You just can't. It's not sustainable.

Yet another reason to have open borders.

[The Angry Optimist]

Oooh, Chris, you still haven't explained why it's a bad thing to have money remitted to foreign nations.

Border hawks using fiscal conservatism to appeal to anti-immigrant status is like liberals using the wars to appeal to fiscal conservatives: superficially appealing, but smart people know you have different motivations and agendas than your stated ones.

In other words, this nation has managed to rack up 12 trillion in Government Debt and 57 trillion in unfunded liabilities, and you wanna talk about Mexicans? I mean, incredible.

[The Angry Optimist]

*anti-immigrant beliefs

I must have been thinking of something else at the time.

[Mike Laursen]

In other words, this nation has managed to rack up 12 trillion in Government Debt and 57 trillion in unfunded liabilities, and you wanna talk about Mexicans? I mean, incredible.

Damn. Well said.

[James Anderson Merritt]

# wampus | June 22, 2009, 11:23pm | #

# You can't have open borders without
# dismantling the welfare system. You just
# can't. It's not sustainable.

I disagree. I think this is a canard deliberately employed by many as a discussion-killer, and uncritically accepted by many more, to the same effect. All you have to do is pass the appropriate constitutional amendments at the State and Federal levels to deny unearned benefits to people who are neither citizens nor accepted into the naturalization program.

An "earned" benefit would be something for which you paid your share of the full cost of provision via taxes or fees. An "unearned" benefit would represent a net transfer of wealth from the state to you. Immigrants and foreign visitors who did not fit the "eligible recipient" profile would have to show documentation of sufficient taxes or fees paid to transform a normally "unearned" benefit into an "earned" one -- even simpler, they could pay the necessary fee(s) upfront, at the point of service.

By the way, I'm not arguing that this setup, or any welfare-state arrangement at all, is either sustainable or desirable. But if people are bound and determined to maintain the honeypot of entitlements, yet reluctant to allow any and all peaceful people to cross our borders more or less at will, because of free-rider fears, then a scheme such as I suggest here would eliminate the free-rider problem without forcing others to prove their citizenship or right-to-work/live in this country, as long as they don't expect any "unearned" benefits. We could do something like this if easing the stress on the safety net were our only, or even our primary concern. But it isn't, obviously; that's just a convenient excuse to neither do anything nor have a serious discussion about what we MIGHT do.

[MikeP]

According to her study, 84 California hospitals are closing their doors as a direct result of the rising number of illegal aliens and their non-reimbursed tax on the system.

http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/cosman.pdf

I'm betting you can't name one of those "84 California hospitals".

After all, that Cosman paper is the biggest piece of trash in support of anti-immigration positions that I have ever read. In fact, the "reference" she gives for that statistic is a newspaper article that does not even mention illegal immigrants.

Estimated Cost of Illegal Immigration, where the net number is put at $24.4 Billion. However some experts say almost twice that much is being sent out of the country.

As the length of the anti-immigration rant goes to infinity, the probability it includes a bald-faced mercantilist fallacy approaches one.

[Mike Laursen]

According to her study, 84 California hospitals are closing their doors as a direct result of the rising number of illegal aliens and their non-reimbursed tax on the system.

And I'm sure Cosman carefully controlled to make sure they weren't counting hospitals that are having financial troubles because of unfunded seismic upgrade mandates from the state of California?

[The Angry Optimist]

I forgot that the slogan for us rational-types about immigration was "I agree with MikeP"!

And what is with this lame Cosman study anyway? You shouldn't need a "study" to demonstrate that a particular hospital is shutting down because of services to the indigent. It's a simple matter of opening the books and looking.

[MikeP]

And I'm sure Cosman carefully controlled to make sure they weren't counting hospitals that are having financial troubles because of unfunded seismic upgrade mandates from the state of California?

As a matter of fact, the supposed source of Cosman's "84 California hospitals" does not mention either illegal immigrants nor any number close to 84, but does note:

Like other hospitals that have closed down, RFK Medical Center was hit by rising costs for nurses to fill state-mandated nurse-to-patient ratios that went into effect in January and the heavy expense of seismic retrofitting required by state law.

[Loin Whackoff]

Some Guy | June 22, 2009, 5:31pm | #

Brittanicus, why are you against having these people pay taxes?

Why would you believe someone has to be legal to be required to pay taxes?

"The IRS created a nine-digit Individual Tax Identification Number in 1996 for foreigners who don't have Social Security numbers but need to file taxes in the U.S."

"But it is increasingly used by undocumented workers to file taxes, apply for credit, get bank accounts or even buy a home".

Meanwhile, I'm quite sure that every 'undocumented citizen" in America who has broken innumerable laws in their "freedom quest" is nonetheless quite conscientious about each and every one of their tax liabilities mandated by the various taxing agencies of our multiple Gov'ts. (Did I keep a "poker face"?)

Don't worry! I'm sure the "property taxes" from 8 uneducated (16-24 yr old males) earning $8.00/hr while "hot-cotting" in a $600/month two bedroom apt. will surely yield enough revenue to pay the $14K/yr that the Columbus City Schools require for each child that they father during the three years they work here before going home...(not to mention the total of their total "city income taxes" does not even pay for the 'per capita' costs of their use of "city services".)

CPSD currently spends $14K/student/yr. More than 5 thousand students - that's almost 10% of all students in the Columbus(OH) City Schools- are the child of an "illegal" parent in this fucking cowtown more than 2500 miles from the Mexican border.

That's over $100K just to reach 8th grade for each of more than 5 thousand students a year- before 40% of all the "beaners" drop out sometime between 8th and 10th grade- not to mention the 10% of the remaining 60% who cannot pass a "9th grade skills test" to get a "real" diploma in 7 different attempts during their 4 yrs of High School.

[Mike Laursen]

...8 uneducated (16-24 yr old males) earning $8.00/hr while "hot-cotting" in a $600/month two bedroom apt. will surely yield enough revenue to pay the $14K/yr that the Columbus City Schools require for each child that they father...

And you're sure that your hypothetical bunch of guys sleeping eight-to-a-room are scoring great amounts of sexual activity with womenfolk? Is it possible that it's a different group of guys who are fathering children. Maybe ones that are a little higher up the earning scale and have a little nicer domestic circumstances?

[Peter Buxton]

I also find amusing the arguments that workers must be legal to pay income tax. After all, you don't get a pass on stealing gas while fleeing a murder charge... That's how they got Capone.

[jimmy t]

WOW! This is my first and last time to this site. Too many dumb@#$'s defending illegals. Man, if you people defending illegals think Mexico and Mexicans are so great, we Americans won't mind if you move there. Bye-bye

[John C. Randolph]

Brittanicus, you pig-ignorant little nazi puke.

If we sent all the Mexicans home, US agriculture would collapse. There's also the fact that a lot of illegal immigrants pay taxes and don't collect benefits. They're here to work; the welfare leaches are US citizens, and major corporations.

-jcr

[John C. Randolph]

You can't have open borders without dismantling the welfare system. You just can't. It's not sustainable.

The welfare system is a train wreck, with or without open borders.

-jcr

[Athena]

Enough of the childish attacks on those against illegal aliens-calling them nazi's is a leftist tactic and all who do so should know better. Illegal immigration has many serious problems that transcend pure economic concerns. Try talking to someone who has lost a family member to murder or drunk-driving and get off your high horses.

[Ed Lilly]

It's all part of Arnold's genius plan to deal with the illegal immigration issue. Make CA worse than Mexico & other Central American countries, and watch the population flow elsewhere. Brilliant!

[Raoul]

An open border to the third world's poor, on the "path" to full welfare "rights" and voter registration, gaurantees an ever expanding welfare state.

So called "libertarians" who favor an open border are the useful idiots of statism.

[Raoul]

MikeP says 15% of Ca. voters are Hispanic and 70% are white. Old figures. More like 18/62 but that isn't half the story.

State Senate and Assembly districts are apportioned by number of "persons", not number of citizens.

The non Hispanic white percentage of the "persons" living in Ca. is down to about 41%.

This should help you understand how Democrats with a historical single digit advantage in voter registration have held about 65% of seats in both bodies for most of the last 20 years or so.

[moptop]

A modest suggestion for California. Why not send liberals to the statehouse in Sacramento and send conservative, state's rights, limited govt people, maybe libertarians, to the federal govt? That way you could seriously affect the balance of power for the better, live as you want, not have to compete with the federal govt to borrow, and give up the project of trying to make, say, Oklahoma or Wyoming, liberal paradises?

Naaah!

[Brett Stevens]

The only reason people support diversity is because the "diverse" group votes for leftist/1789/1968/progressive ideas.

I don't trust progressive ideas; I say use history as a form of science, and build on what works.

After all, the world hasn't changed.

[tyree]

40 years ago when illegal immigration really started picking up someone asked me why I cared about stopping illegal immigration. I said, "Because if we don't stop them, they will keep coming when living here is worse than living there."

It's now worse. Thanks members of the US Federal, State and Local governments. Thanks for nothing.

[Mike DeSoto]

Of course not. Now that they've wrecked California they'll move on to another state.

From their point of view what they do makes sense. What is our excuse for allowing it?

[Mike DeSoto]

If we sent all the Mexicans home, US agriculture would collapse.

What sort of faux free marketer are you? US agriculture would not "collapse". Wages would rise, as they should in a free market system, to reallocate the neccessary labor. And some agriculture would be outsourced to places like Mexico, in accordance with the concept of competive advantage.

There are a lot of lefties posing as libertarians on this site.

There's also the fact that a lot of illegal immigrants pay taxes and don't collect benefits.

They do collect benefits, you ignorant jackass. Benefits are not tied to citizenship.

[Mike DeSoto]

In other words, this nation has managed to rack up 12 trillion in Government Debt and 57 trillion in unfunded liabilities, and you wanna talk about Mexicans?

What kind of statist nitwit is unable to understand the connection between the two? What part of "illegal immigration shoves America further to the left" is too difficult for you to understand? What part of "making America a Latin American country means Latin American politics and economics" do you need to have spelled out for you?

[Mike DeSoto]

Only 15% of the voting population in California is Hispanic. 70% is white.

Care to rephrase your rant?

And there we have the deep, deep thoughts of the people who suck at Koch's teat. This site is about as "libertarian" as the Daily Kos, and contains as much critical thought.

[Mike DeSoto]

Mexico gets rid of its "rabble" and hurts its own interests in liberalizing and it gives us cheap, ambitious labor.

Yeah, if by "cheap, ambitious labor" you mean "tens of millions of socialist voters who are a net drain on the economy", sure.

[peter m]

CA has 12-15 % UE and jobs even for illegals have disappeared so they will drift to other states with lower UE rates such as Texas. The illegal alien problem persists and is kept under the rung by the PC crowd, MSM and politicians. Only Nos. USA & FAIR are keeping the issue alive as there are non-stop efforts by the pro-amnesty crowd in Wash DC to get some sort of amnesty in place this year.
The Politicians in Washington and the state Capitals respond only to lobby pressures by large corp interests and loud/vocal pro ilegal alien lobby groups such as LA Raza,Mecha and immigration rights lawyers. The people need to rise up en mass and flood Wash with angry calls and letters demanding strict enforcement and halt any further immigration. The people only get aroused when they see large demonstrations of ilegals marching on the streets. At other times they ignore this issue while the illegals continue to despoil America by bleeding it of welfare/medical benefits.

[Roberto]

Don't worry about "illegal" "immigration" - that type of thing has never, ever been a problem to any country in the history of the world. Ever. Huge populations shifts are always easy to deal with. Multi-cultural countries always are awesome! Always!!! That's why Europe has such a peaceful history. And so does China for that matter. And Asia. Countries where ethnic populations fight each other for political control are GREAT places to live. I for one, can't wait.

Rules are for suckers!

[Roberto]

(And by Asia, I meant the rest of non-China Asia. I was so excited to be a smarty, I forgot to type what I was actually thinking)

[Abner MacGillicuddy]

Well, Lonewhacko, Brett Stevens and Britannicus can get together for a circle jerk but what will they do when MaryJ shows up to join them?

[Naga Sadow]

I'm a statist if I'm for open borders? Huh.

[jbubba76013]

Mikep,
Try 32/60 Hispanic/White. Care to rewrite your snark?

http://www.eagleton.rutgers.edu/News-Research/NewVoters/Ethnicity.html

[MikeP]

Are those 32/60 voters? No. That is population as a whole. Those are also old 2000 numbers. California is now less than 50% white.

As for voters, from this August 2008 profile of Latino voters in California...

Latinos make up about 32% of California's adult population but only 15% of the registered voters most likely to turn out in elections. Asians similarly represent a smaller share of the state's likely voting population (6%) compared to their share of the adult population (13%), while blacks constitute 6% of both the state's adult population and likely voters. Although whites constitute less than half (47%) of the adult population in the state, 70% of California's likely voters are white.

[JB]

TAO, are you making the claim that Mexicans have done a good job running Mexico?

That would be fun to watch.

[zoltan]

Try talking to someone who has lost a family member to murder or drunk-driving and get off your high horses.

Uh, what the fuck is this supposed to be? I guess my perfect state-government-run DPS has never produced a legally licensed drunk driver? Or, oh wait, no legal citizen of the U.S. has ever murdered another person? Get the fuck off your own high horse if you think you're somehow special because a loved one got killed by one of the eeeevil illegals instead of a real citizen.

[moptop]

"I'm a statist if I'm for open borders? Huh."

Try googling up George Orwell's convincing argument that pacifists in a liberal democracy during a time when totalitarians are on the march are effectively totalitarians. It was true of them, and it is true of you.

[Naga Sadow]

Wow! Now I'm a pacifist! I should go out and kill some immigrants since we're at war with em. For the good of . . . democracy? Peace? What exactly? Besides you're fear of culture shock?

[ZZMike]

Surely this decline in illegal immigration is simply because our brave and dutiful Border Patrol agents have been working round the clock to stem the tide.

[Mike Laursen]

What kind of statist nitwit is unable to understand the connection between the two?

Please explain again how the Mexicans are responsible for the debt from middle-class entitlements like Medicare and Social Security, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and the corporate bailouts.

[Raoul]

MikeP;

You missed the point of my post. State legislators are not elected "at large", but from districts apportion by number of "persons".

So an "immigrant" district in East L.A. with 50,000 eligible voters controls the same percentage of the legislature as does an Orange County district with 250,000 eligible voters.

In the above example each vote in the first district counts as much as five votes in the second.

In the case of the Assembly and Senate the statewide PERSONS demographics are determinant, statwide VOTER demogaphics are irrelevent.

Get it?

[Raoul]

moptop;

I agree with Orwell, but you have your analogy ass backwards.

Americans who defend a never ending flow of poor, uneducated ready made welfare eligible immigrants serve the welfare state in exaxtly the same way the European pacifists served the totalitarians.

[MikeP]

I got the point of your post the first time. Are you jbubba76013?

[Mike DeSoto]

Please explain again how the Mexicans are responsible for the debt from middle-class entitlements like Medicare and Social Security, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and the corporate bailouts.

Please pay some attenton to the discussion you are havng with Raoul.

And please try to be aware that many of the actions of the GOP these last dozen years have been aimed at winning the votes of the emerging Hispanic majority.

While you're at it, you could take the trouble to learn some demographic data. For instance, you might discover that Hispanic Republicans are more in favor of larger government than are white Democrats.

[Mike eSoto]

I'm a statist if I'm for open borders?

Yes, you are. Being "for" open borders means you are "for" flooding America with the sort of people who consider the Democratic Party to be overly in favor of resticted government.

If you clowns could pull your heads out of "Atlas" and pay a little attention to the demographic data, this would be obvious to you.

How stupid do you have to be to think that ALMO voters from Mexico will come to America and start reading Mises? As stupid as the average cell in the Kochtopus, it would seem.

[Raoul]

MikeP;

I've never posted anywhere as jbubba whatever, only posted here as Raoul.

If you got my point why go on about percent of "voters"?

Legislative districts are determined by # of PERSONS.

41% of Ca. "persons" are white. That explains why socialist Dems control 60%+ of the seats in both houses. The WELFARE STATE PARTY gets the votes of the social welfare dependent.

Pretty simple.

[MikeP]

If you got my point why go on about percent of "voters"?

Because I was responding to jbubba76013, who didn't even have that base fact right.

[MikeP]

41% of Ca. "persons" are white. That explains why socialist Dems control 60%+ of the seats in both houses.

No it doesn't. The fact that 44% of the state's voters are registered Democratic and 33% percent are registered Republican is quite enough.

I will defer to your expertise in the politics of LA County. But living up here in northern California and watching what comes out of Sacramento, it is very clear where California's Democratic power base and agenda come from. And it's not Hispanics.

[Citizen]

Hmm, maybe I'll start thinking about moving back to CA, the illegal problem is one of the reasons I left, and now Charlotte is starting to look like CA. Just in the last couple of months our apartment complex has been inundated with illegals. Many of the un or under employed people here in the apartment complex are getting very steamed to say the least. These illegals have shown up and immediately are working. One of my neighbors was laid off because of the economy, he later talked to his former foreman who told him that they had hired illegals to take the place of the employees they had laid off. So we fathers get to stand at the school bus stop with our kids and plan our fruitless work searches while watching the illegals going off to work. Nice, eh?

[RAOUL]

MikeP.

You think a 12 point advantage in registration explains a 65/35 split in both houses of the legislature?

G.W. Bush ruined the GOP but a few years ago when the Dem advantage in voter reg was 3%-4%, the dems still controlled 60% of the Assembly and Senate.

It isn't "Hispanics" per say. it's millions of third world welfare dependent poor, most of whom happen to be Hispanic. In Ca. "Hispanic" is spelled M-E-X-I-C-A-N.

In 1980 and 1984 Ronald Reagan not only won Ca. in two landslides, he won L.A. County twice. That couldn't happen now or in a million years. What do you imagine happened? You think we all dropped acid and went insane? Or is it do to a massive change in demographics from middle class natural born Americans to welfare dependent immigrants from the corrupt and dysfunctional third world?

[Mike Laursen]

Please pay some attenton to the discussion you are havng with Raoul.

I'm having a discussion with Raoul? Are you getting your Mikes confused? That would be funny because you are a Mike.

[Mike Laursen]

If you clowns could pull your heads out of "Atlas"...

Sorry, you've got the wrong crowd.

[Mikey G]

All I ask of immigrants is come in the front door and have a desire to assimilate. Most immigrants I know are very adamant about their childrens education, my main beef is multiculturalists encouraging everyone to cling to their pasts. You came here to do it bigger and better damnit be an American.

[The Angry Optimist]

question for the Mexican-haters:

if it's permissible to build walls and staff them with troops to keep out "socialist-Democrat, uneducated Mexicans", should say, New York be able to do the same thing with (statistically speaking, that is) ignorant Mississippians? why or why not?

[paul p.]

Every illegal alien working in construction, manufacturing, service industries, etc. is using a fraudulent SSN and filed a fraudulent I-9, W-4, etc. In other words 8.5 million illegal aliens are committing ID fraud.

They may be using your SSN or your child's SSN. So what harm does that do??? The IRS will come looking for you asking why you are filing two tax returns or they will want to know why you didn't report all the income you made. Don't forget that your income will now include the illegal aliens earnings, so you will be responsible for paying any taxes he owes. Many illegals file tax returns for the sole purpose of claiming Earned Income Credit (EIC), so you can expect the IRS to question that as well.

Those who have come here illegally, steal our IDs and ignore our laws have already demonstrated they lack the honesty and decency to ever become American citizens.

[MikeP]

Those who have come here illegally, steal our IDs and ignore our laws have already demonstrated they lack the honesty and decency to ever become American citizens.

Those who have passed legislation that prohibits people from exercising their inalienable rights of travel, residence, and labor have already demonstrated they lack the principles and decency to ever become American congressmen.

That further legislation then subverts any attempt by those exercising their rights to use ITIN's and other mechanisms to be as legal as they can be under the circumstances -- collaterally harming citizens in the process -- just proves that the congressmen are incompetent as well.

[adina]

Paul P, Would you agree that the identity theft problem stems from the useless requirement that everyone list their social security number in order to work?

[Brittanicus]

With the onset of President Obama's push for Amnesty, the opponents are mobilizing to stop this absolutely ridiculous move to legitimize the 20 to 30 million illegal aliens,when 15 million and upwards of citizens and residents are jobless. Anytime that reform rears its ugly head, pro-sovereignty, anti-illegal immigrants organization will get into the fight, even when the economy is sound? But to try and force through this Immigration reform, when millions of American are losing their homes, applying for begrudged unemployment benefit and lining up at food banks. Its just illogical that the Democrats would gather together with a few Republicans to slip through another law to reward illegal immigrants? How can they even dream this up under the circumstances? Most any element of enforcement has always remained underfunded and eyed by politicians who represents corporate welfare to compromise laws.

HOW CAN THEY SAY THAT THE 1986 LAW IS BROKEN, WHEN IT NEVER WAS ENFORCED? Some of the most talented, skillful politicians-ex attorneys authored that bill, including Liberal personage Ted Kennedy? No! Its just a good excuse to arrange another AMNESTY, because previous administrations failed to secure the border or even try? YOU MIGHT ASK THESE RADICAL POLITICIANS--WHY CHANGE THE 1986 IMMIGRATION BILL, WHEN YOU CAN AMEND IT?

Next weekend, 100,000 pro-amnesty supporters are expected to flood Washington to show their support for a blanket amnesty. This is why the Sanctuary State of California needs a governor such as Steve Poizner? He has promised to fight illegal immigration and cut-off benefits to the millions settled in the state as does the majority of the "Tea Party" movement. Its time with thought of our own poor, desperate people, instead of taxes being extorted in support of foreign nationals?

IF YOU BELIEVE IN YOUR NATIONAL SOVEREIGNTY AND STOPPING THE ILLEGAL ALIEN INVASION. ONE FLAG--ONE LANGUAGE.

Get ready for one of the biggest battles of any reform packages that the parties throw at us? Those Patriotic Americans and legal immigrants who believe in Americas sovereignty and desire the borders be firmly secure, heavy funding for immigration enforcement and NO BLANKET AMNESTY. No MORE GOVERNMENT ENTITLEMENTS FOR ILLEGAL ALIENS AND FAMILIES. Become a member of NUMBERSUSA.dot.com MANDATE E-VERIFY. Over a million members and growing. Are you ready to fight against OVERPOPULATION and CHAIN MIGRATION? JUST DO NOT LET UP AT CAUSING YOUR POLITICIANS PALPITATIONS AT 202-224-3121. Don't forget to give your state lawmakers an ultimatum; NO RE-ELECTION VOTE.

[wizard of oz books]

With many new announcement about the wizard of oz movies in the news, you might want to consider starting to obtain Wizard of Oz book series either as collectible or investment at RareOzBooks.com.