Reason Morning Links: New Torture Report, Supremes Study Strip Searches, Peeping Fibbies

- Senate report says Bush officials were planning toture techniques months before getting rubber stamp from the Office of Legal Counsel; also says Bush political appointees pushed for torture of detainees to reveal connections between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda.

- Obama shifts, now says he's open to investigation, possible prosecution of Bush administration officials who provided the legal framework for torture.

- Big Apple fans eschewing top-dollar seats at shiny, new, taxpayer-funded Mets and Yankee stadiums.

- Supreme Court hears arguments in the school strip search case. NY Times summary doesn't look promising. "Several justices appeared troubled by the search, but also seemed loath to second-guess school officials confronted with a variety of dangerous substances."

- Acting CFO of Freddie Mac apparently killed himself this morning.

- FBI agents accused of turning surveillance equipment on dressing rooms to watch teen girls change clothes in a West Virginia mall.

- Inspector General report says TARP program susceptible to mass waste and fraud.

Comments

[High Every Body]

Acting CFO of Freddie Mac apparently killed himself this morning.

I suspect this is related to the 7:41am story posted by Nick Gillespie.

[Hypothetical justice robc]

About half way thru the proceedings:

"Listen up retards. You can search anywhere you want if you first get a fucking warrant. You cant even search her backpack, much less her crotch without a warrant, so just get the fucking warrant first, you motherfuckers. Fuck! Have none of you read the fucking constitution?"

Im not sure if dropping f-bombs and calling the other 8 justices retards is within the bounds of standard justice behavior, which probably explains (along with not being a lawyer) why Im not on the Supreme Court.

[hmm]

Nothing like setting the precedent for prosecuting the losing party. Yet another change that reeks of potential abuse and arrogance. If they wanted to prosecute him they had the option to start the procedure while he was still in office.

I'm no fan of FRE or FNM, but the pressure some of those guys are currently under has to be immense. I feel for his family.

[Wicks Cherrycoke]

Read the full Times article on Obama "shifting" his position on prosecuting Bush officials.Underneath the headline is a discussion of how Dennis Blair, BO's own intelligence chief, reported in a memo that the waterboarding, et al, produced valuable information...and how the "condensed" version of the Blair memo circulated to the media left that little detail out.

Seems like Obama's "shift" is his way of telling Cheney and his other critics to keep their mouths shut. But surely the Greatest Man Who Ever Lived would never abuse governmental authority for political ends.

[High Every Body]

Nothing like setting the precedent for prosecuting the losing party. Yet another change that reeks of potential abuse and arrogance. If they wanted to prosecute him they had the option to start the procedure while he was still in office.

Remember, it was Pelosi and Reid who said after they gained legeslative majorities that they were not going to try to impeach Bush.

This is a whole different deal.

At least they are giving some lipservice to following a 'promise' of sorts.

[High Every Body]

Seems like Obama's "shift" is his way of telling Cheney and his other critics to keep their mouths shut. But surely the Greatest Man Who Ever Lived would never abuse governmental authority for political ends.

Didn't work on Cheney and I bet Cheney can kick Obama and Biden's asses too.

[Kyle Jordan]

"FBI agents accused of turning surveillance equipment on dressing rooms to watch teen girls change clothes in a West Virginia mall."

Hey! It's like that episode of Penn & Teller:Bullshit! Just not as funny and far, far more angering and disturbing.

I have to ask though, were the chicks hot at least?

[Xeones]

Inspector General report says TARP program susceptible to mass waste and fraud.

In other news, Inspector General report says sun will appear to rise in the east tomorrow, unless it's cloudy.

[dhex]

"Read the full Times article on Obama "shifting" his position on prosecuting Bush officials.Underneath the headline is a discussion of how Dennis Blair, BO's own intelligence chief, reported in a memo that the waterboarding, et al, produced valuable information..."

so do illegal wiretaps and no-knock raids.

it doesn't make them right.

[Kyle Jordan]

"Didn't work on Cheney and I bet Cheney can kick Obama and Biden's asses too."

Nah. I'd much rather see Cheney do something to them that he's good at.

Shooting them both in the fucking face with a shotgun!

Not killing them mind you. Just wounding.

[Kyle Jordan]

And that last comment most assuredly put me on some type of list.

[? Libertarian]

The Cinderella Project at the Middletown Mall in the north-central West Virginia town of Fairmont drew hundreds of girls from 10 high schools in five counties.

The agents were described by FBI as "police officers". Where is the sexual assault on a minor charge? Where is the lifetime registration as a sex offender? I'll stay tuned.

[Cabeza De Vaca]

"Justice Breyer elaborated on what children put in their underwear. "In my experience when I was 8 or 10 or 12 years old, you know, we did take our clothes off once a day," he said. "We changed for gym, O.K.? And in my experience, too, people did sometimes stick things in my underwear."

WTF?

"My thought process," Justice Souter said, "is I would rather have the kid embarrassed by a strip search, if we can't find anything short of that, than to have some other kids dead because the stuff is distributed at lunchtime and things go awry."

I can't believe people this dumb can get appointed to the Supreme Court.

[Xeones]

"Several justices appeared troubled by the search, but also seemed loath to second-guess school officials confronted with a variety of dangerous substances."

As dangerous as ibuprofen? You know what? Fuck those justices, then, for not having a lick of goddamn sense. Any school official who tries to strip search my kid for ANY reason is gonna get second-guessed with a 2x4 to the face, Buford Pusser-core.

[? Libertarian]

things go awry

Swelling was reduced, fevers diminished, pain was analgeized! It was anarchy!

[hmm]

Remember, it was Pelosi and Reid who said after they gained legeslative majorities that they were not going to try to impeach Bush.

That was the point. They had a chance when he was in office to take action. Instead they wait until they have a mouth frothing majority and such an investigation could easily turn into a witch hunt. Setting the precedent of prosecuting the losing party reeks of third world politics.

[Wicks Cherrycoke]

dhex,

If it was Obama's position that improper techniques are wrong regardless of how "effective" they are, that should have said that. Obama claimed that these techniques were wrong because they were not effective. He framed the terms of debate, and then lied about the facts supporting his position. That was my point.

[Pro Libertate]

You know, if the Supreme Court operated on a presumption that the government was in the wrong in every case, they'd probably do a lot better. Instead of this mysterious deference.

[Hugh Akston]

? Acting CFO of Freddie Mac apparently killed himself this morning.

There's a metaphor in here somewhere, I just know it.

[dhex]

wicks: the efficacy was not the driving force of the objection to them, as blair is quoted as saying in the nytimes piece.

[SugarFree]

Kyle,

I have to ask though, were the chicks hot at least?

West Virginia mall is the key phrase. So, no.

[Nick]

I would rather have the kid embarrassed by a strip search, if we can't find anything short of that, than to have some other kids dead because the stuff is distributed at lunchtime and things go awry.

What about the dead school administrators and nurse when I find out my daughter was strip searched?

[P Brooks]

"I can't even begin to put words around what I consider an unspeakable act, the misuse of surveillance by a branch of our government in a place we felt so secure," she said. "Never in a million years would we have thought something like this would happen. We're in shock."

Who'd 'a thunk it?

[Xeones]

Who'd 'a thunk it?

Anyone who's ever read a Balko post, probably.

[John C. Randolph]

I am absolutely disgusted that the school board appealed this after they lost in the ninth circuit. Also, FUCK the five members of the ninth circuit who voted to ignore the fourth amendment.

-jcr

[SugarFree]

Where's my Earth Day post? I have comments building within me to a irresistible pressure.

[John C. Randolph]

Looks like Souter's not satisfied with Kelo, he wants another case to make sure that this court is as reviled as the motherfuckers who ruled against Dred Scott and Korematsu.

-jcr

[Rimfax]

So far, here's the police get-away-with-it checklist:

OK:
* shoot dogs
* harass reporters
* shake down prostitutes for free services
* steal drugs from evidence

BAD:
* peep on girls in malls

I'll keep the tally here: http://reason.wikia.com/wiki/Police_checklist

[John C. Randolph]

TARP program susceptible to mass waste and fraud

Isn't that redundant?

-jcr

[P Brooks]

Dennis Blair, BO's own intelligence chief, reported in a memo that the waterboarding, et al, produced valuable information

Are you referring to this?
"We do not need these techniques to keep America safe," said Mr. Blair, who added: "The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means. The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us, and they are not essential to our national security."

Hardly an enthusiastic defense.

[domoarrigato]

Where's my Earth Day post? I have comments building within me to a irresistible pressure.

Visit juicymidgets.com and report back in 10 minutes...

[High Every Body]

And that last comment most assuredly put me on some type of list.

If we post here we are on the new list of Rightwingextremestmilitiapeople.

Where's my Earth Day post? I have comments building within me to a irresistible pressure.

Your Ninja friend said Happy Earth Day a few threads back.

[Abdul]

There are two burning hotness issues in the link roundup:

1) strip-searched girl has done a photo op. Definitely not hot.

2) While Sugarfree makes a good argument that girls in a West Virginia Mall are not hot, these were teenagers in a fashion contest, which may rebut the presumption. Without photographic proof, we can only speculate.

[High Every Body]

SF,

Are you sure it is Earth Day? I was gearing up for Festivus.

Which Commie's birthday is today? Stalin, Lenin, Carter? I have trouble keeping them straight.

[PantsFan]

domoarrigato | April 22, 2009, 9:36am | #

Where's my Earth Day post? I have comments building within me to a irresistible pressure.

Visit juicymidgets.com and report back in 10 minutes...

I'm not seeing anything about Earth Day over there.

[Telly]

Damn, this is a depressing post. What a bunch of all around nasty hearted, soulless shit.

[SugarFree]

Adbul,

Actually:

Hospice Care Corp. was sponsoring the event, offering prom dresses, shoes and accessories to girls who could not otherwise afford them. Dresses sold for as little as $5.

So they were poor girls from WV. I'm sure a few might have been attractive, but I bet the bulk of them were, well... bulky.

As for the strip search: The mere fact that the Supreme Court had to hear this case, instead of the police arresting the school officials involved on the spot, indicates that something is so fundamentally broken in our society that it may be impossible to repair.

[PantsFan]

FBI agents accused of turning surveillance equipment on dressing rooms to watch teen girls change clothes in a West Virginia mall.

Why don't you have a seat over here?

[Pop]

" Obama shifts, now says he's open to investigation, possible prosecution of Bush administration officials who provided the legal framework for torture."

Can you really prosecute someone for rendering a legal opinion?

[SugarFree]

Oh, they'll put an Earth Day post. But they'll wait until I'm not around to do it. And they know when I'm away from my desk, too. THEY ALWAYS KNOW.

Shh! What was that?

[Blue]

Acting CFO of Freddie Mac apparently killed himself this morning.

That's going on my Obama Death List.

What did he know and when did he know it?
Where was Joe Biden yesterday?
Where was Barney Frank?
Can we start uploading exploding fruit videos yet?
Hillary knows about faking suicides - where was she?

[PC]

Acting CFO of Freddie Mac apparently killed himself this morning.

[PC]

Acting CFO of Freddie Mac apparently killed himself this morning.

Joe Biden is President? This should be interesting.

[Wicks Cherrycoke]

P. Brooks:

What you quoted was not the Blair memo itself, but Blair's subsequent comments when asked about the memo.

[P Brooks]

Can you really prosecute someone for rendering a legal opinion?

If you decide it's not fair to prosecute people who were only following orders, then all you are left with is the people who conceived those orders. unless you decide it wouldn't be fair to prosecute them.

[Wicks Cherrycoke]

Not to drag this out any further, but this was Blair's original internal statement:

"High-value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the Al Qaeda organization that was attacking this country," Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote to his staff last Thursday as the previously secret memos were released.

P., you quoted Blair's subsequent comments when he was subsequently questioned about his original statement.

[Pop]

"If you decide it's not fair to prosecute people who were only following orders, then all you are left with is the people who conceived those orders."

So you are saying that a legal opinion is the same as an order?

[Isaac Bartram]

Can you really prosecute someone for rendering a legal opinion?

IANAL, but I would think not. Or, if I'm not mistaken, the bar would be quite high. I would think you would have to prove that it was an act of collusion. IOW, not an honestly rendered opinion but a lie to give cover. One wonders why anyone would do that though, since following bad legal advice is never a defence AFAIK.

However, one could opine that such an opinion indicated poor legal judgment or even incompetence, so disbarment would certainly be an option.

Not to mention impeachment and removal of anyone who might have been appointed to the federal bench and removal of tenure from anyone who might have gotten a plumb academic appointment.

Public disgrace and destruction of a professional career may not give the same satisfaction as seeing someone in a jail cell but they are quite suitable sanctions nonetheless.

[R C Dean]

Senate report says Bush officials were planning did not use torture techniques for months before getting rubber stamp from while the Office of Legal Counsel researched the legal issues and developed guidelines for complying with applicable law;

More contentious? Less contentious?

Can you really prosecute someone for rendering a legal opinion?

Not unless they do so as knowing participants in a criminal conspiracy, no.

Why the blase reaction to Obama's decision not to prosecute the actual torturers because, and I paraphrase, "they were just following orders"?

[Wicks Cherrycoke]

Perhaps we goofed at Nuremberg. Instead of prosecuting Goering and his fellow Nazi leaders, we should have prosecuted the lawyers who advised them.

I am surprised the ABA is not flipping out about the idea of lawyers being prosecuted for their opinions, however wrong they may be. It may be malpractice, but how is it a crime? And how are you going to prove criminal intent? Merely asserting that an opinion is wrong, or even frivolous, does not prove intent to commit a crime.

So if I want to rob your house, I need to find a lawyer who will write me an opinion that the robbery is not illegal, and he will be prosecuted instead of me. Astounding.

[High Every Body]

Can you really prosecute someone for rendering a legal opinion?

Where have you been since January? If the massiah can replace CEOs he sure as hell can prosecute for rendering a legal opinion he does not like.

[P Brooks]

High-value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding

Geithner gave a speech this morning. He assures us that if we hadn't thrown nearly a trillion dollars at the "economic meltdown" we would be in much, much worse shape than we are now.

Any government act, by definition, is the only possible alternative.

Okay.

[Brandon]

They might fuck up the strip search case, but it's worth noting that yesterday the SCOTUS got one right. A 5-4 majority decided that the mere arrest of a driver, say for a traffic violation, is not by itself sufficient justification for cops to search the driver's car. So a cop can't throw you in the back of his cruiser for driving 100 MPH and then look for pot in your trunk. I would have thought this was already the case, but apparently not.

Also worth noting that Scalia and Thomas defected from the 'conservatives' to join the majority, and Breyer defected from the 'liberals' to join the dissent.

[Troy]

Pedophilia vs. ibuprofen.... You think you'd know which side of the argument would win. You are wrong.

Listen pedophiles, this is what you do. Become and administrator or a nurse at a school. Find a way to accuse your target (You know, the one with the blue eyes and blond hair and sprouting nipples that you've had your eye on since she was 6) with any drug. Hey, doesn't matter how innocuous or safe the drug is. It doesn't matter if she has a prescription. The courts are not going to question your judgment because all drugs are equally bad....mmmm'kay. You don't have to look for a troubled child either. You can pick the brightest and those that don't have any discipline problems. The courts are not ever going to question your judgment. So have at it pedophiles.

Next topic: Oh so they got some good info out of the torture. Oh so what you are saying is that the ends justifies the means. That is a hell of an argument. You went to harvard to come up with that?

[P Brooks]

a lie to give cover

Conspiracies are made of such things.

What happens to the people who devise and sell tax shelters which are found not to comply with the tax code? Does the fact that they merely offered an "opinion" about the legitimacy of their products shield them from prosecution?

[brotherben]

this is a follow up to yesterdays 'batin thread. from the Dothan Eagle and the AP:

a resolution has been introduced in the Alabama House that praises Miss California for speaking out against gay marriage. The resolution was introduced by Republican Jay Love of montgomery.. He said Prejean stuck to her conviction even if it meant losing the pageant. The resolution has been referred to the House rules committee.

[Bill]

"What happens to the people who devise and sell tax shelters which are found not to comply with the tax code? Does the fact that they merely offered an "opinion" about the legitimacy of their products shield them from prosecution?"

In fact, the Treasury has issued detailed and complex regulations providing pretty serious penalties precisely for those people. It's known as "Circular 230" and in recent years, the regs have been revised a few times and greatly strengthened. Any attorney "practicing before the IRS", including tax return preparers or those giving certain written opinions - most especially those regarding the tax treatment of tax-shelter type transactions - are exposed to significant potential penalties.

In that area, at least, the law expressly covers that issue.

[R C Dean]

The resolution was introduced by Republican Jay Love

You just can't make this shit up, can you?

In fact, the Treasury has issued detailed and complex regulations providing pretty serious penalties precisely for those people.

What are the intent requirements?

[brotherben]

R C Dean, Jay Love ran for U.S. House of rep last fall for the vacated seat of the retiring Terry Everett(sp). His ads bludgeoned us with, "It's time to get some conservative Christian values back in congress!" We got Bobby Bright instead. A conservative democrat, former mayor of Montgomery Alabama.

[Charles]

Brotherben,

And to think some people say our legislature never gets anything done!

I hope you've been calling your state senator about the Gourmet Beer Bill.

[Dave Krueger]

Good thing it was the FBI. If it had been ordinary citizens it would have been serious crime warranting hard time and lifetime membership on the sex offender registry. But, since it was just law enforcement doing the peeping, it's merely a misdemeanor and it's all hush-hush to protect the victims.

[Dave Krueger]

"I can't even begin to put words around what I consider an unspeakable act, the misuse of surveillance by a branch of our government in a place we felt so secure," she said. "Never in a million years would we have thought something like this would happen. We're in shock."

ROFLMAO!!!!

[Mike Laursen]

How odd to include the assessed value of the CFO's home as a factoid in the article.

[Geotpf]

I've completely given up on the Supreme Court. It's not that they always rule the way I think is the "wrong", it's that their rulings are totally random. Sometimes they rule the "right" way for illogical reasons. There's no consistancy from one ruling to the next. Lots of goofy 5-4 decisions as well, which mostly depend on what Kennedy had for lunch that day, as far as I can tell.

[R C Dean]

I've completely given up on the Supreme Court. It's not that they always rule the way I think is the "wrong", it's that their rulings are totally random.

Given the age and decrepitude of several members of the current Court, I expect Obama will fill two or three seats. Then we won't have random rulings, we'll have decades of dead wrong rulings piling rocks on the grave of the Constitution.

[Tonio (Not Tony)]

It's not that they always rule the way I think is the "wrong", it's that their rulings are totally random.

They aren't ruling on what's right or wrong they're ruling on how to interpret the often-bad laws passed by congress or state legislators, and trying to avoid overturning prior SCOTUS decisions wherever possible.

This is about process, not about outcome.

Then we won't have random rulings, we'll have decades of dead wrong rulings piling rocks on the grave of the Constitution.

Riiiiiight....

[jtuf]

I object to the waterboarding. I haven't gone through the details of the other methods. I've got some questions to throw out there.

First, I remember when the New York Times reporter (I think her name was Palmer) was sent to jail for contempt of court for refusing to reveal her source during a case. Should it also be legal to jail people who refuse to talk about others during an interrogation?

Second, the legal bar for injecting someone with pychiatric drugs and holding him in a mental institute for a couple of weeks to get him talk is quite low. I don't approve of that practice either, but I'm surprised the interrogators did not use it. It's more effective than water boarding, and happens commonly without any political fall out.

Third, how can Obama, who was in the Senate for years before becoming president, manage to look like a Washington outsider on this? The call for an investigation of congressional compliance with the water boarding ect. is noticeably absent.