Reason.tv: Tea Party Confidential—Matt Kibbe of Freedomworks tells what's coming next in the hugely popular anti-government-spending movement.

During Reason Weekend, the annual event held by the nonprofit that publishes this website, Reason.tv's Nick Gillespie caught up with Matt Kibbe of Freedomworks, the group that has done more than anyone else to coordinate the controversial and wildly popular Tea Party demonstrations against out-of-control government spending.

Kibbe, a longtime limited-government activist, explains the meaning of the Tea Party movement, its grassroots appeal, the mainstream media's inability to understand the rage of the common man, and what comes next for the most vital anti-government movement in memory.

Shot and edited by Roger Richards; approximately 5.30 minutes.

Go here for iPod and HD versions and more videos.

Go here for an audio podcast version.

Related materials:

An archive of anti-stimulus, anti-bailout writings by Freedomworks' chairman, Dick Armey.

Kibbe's writings on the same topics. And his classic Reason.com article from October 2, 2008, "What Would Mises Do?: Confessions of a free-market, anti-bailout operator."

From October 2007's Reason in DC conference, here is Armey on "Illegal Immigrants: 'Bless their hearts'" (approximately 3.30 minutes).

Comments

[Warty]

Oh man, I could go for some Kibbeh now.

[Lester Hunt]

I don't remember ever seeing so much angry opposition to a new administration so early in the game. That's probably the single most amazing thing about this movement.

[classwarrior]

Would it be too rude of me to point out that these "spontaneous" demonstrations were organized by lobbying firms that also worked for banks to get bailout money?

[Blue]

It wouldn't be too rude - but it would help to actually cite evidence of your accusation.

[Gabe]

"9/12"....sounds like Glenn Beck is the head of the Freedomworks and the mmovement only 12 months after calling Ron Paul supporters terrorist.

[nutroot]

"Would it be too rude of me to point out that these "spontaneous" demonstrations were organized by lobbying firms that also worked for banks to get bailout money?"

Yeah, uh, Astroturf! Bush spent money too! Where's your solution?

JournoList! (oops. Scratch that last one.)

[The Prophet]

The British Empire is behind the bailout.

[John C. Randolph]

Would it be too rude of me to point out that these "spontaneous" demonstrations were organized by lobbying firms that also worked for banks to get bailout money?

Oh, only if you consider it rude to lie through your teeth.

-jcr

[Mike M.]

I don't remember ever seeing so much angry opposition to a new administration so early in the game.

I don't think anyone has ever proven to be quite so disingenuous this quickly before.

[Orange Line Special]

Apparently "the common man" has been defined really down, since the "parties" only got somewhere between 0.1% and 0.2% of the U.S. population to come out and wave loopy signs.

Meanwhile, even a hack like Instapundit is supporting my plan to ask questions on video.

One person really pressing BHO on this question or DickDurbin on this question would have a much greater impact than a million "tea parties".

[mantooth]

To be fair, Gillespie also considers his jacket "wildly popular".

[John C. Randolph]

I don't remember ever seeing so much angry opposition to a new administration so early

Kids, let me tell you about the Reagan administration...

-jcr

[John C. Randolph]

Come to think of it, the pinkos were in an incredible snit over Gore losing in such a close race, and they were pretty vicious about it. They shut up for a while right after 9/11, though.

-jcr

[R C Dean]

Would it be too rude of me to point out that these "spontaneous" demonstrations were organized by lobbying firms that also worked for banks to get bailout money?

Its always rude to make factual assertions without supporting links.

[Warty]

Shut the fuck up, Lonewacko.

[Warren]

FUCK DICK ARMEY
FUCK HIM!

Dick Armey is still towing the lion for the fusionist movement. Fuck that noise. Armey is flat out one hundred percent wrong wrong wrong when he claims libertarians have so much more in common than conservatives. You go hell Dick Armey! You go to hell and you die! Your conservative friends have done nothing but anal rape libertarians for the past four decades. FUCK CONSERVATIVES! And everyone that claims libertarians should cozy up to conservatives deserves to be skinned alive!

[? Libertarian]

I don't remember ever seeing so much angry opposition to a new administration so early in the game.

It doesn't seem to have much to do with the "new administration" from what I've seen, other than the fact that many of the people involved honestly expected Obama to be an improvement and are sauced at being so wrong.

[JP]

Re: the tea parties' popularity:

A Rasmussen poll on April 16-17 found 51% (give or take a few) to have a very favorable or somewhat favorable impression of the tea parties.

[Xeones]

Warren, you don't fuck with a dude named Dick Arm(e)y.

[Paul]

Would it be too rude of me to point out that these "spontaneous" demonstrations were organized by lobbying firms that also worked for banks to get bailout money?[citation needed]

Fixed.

[? Libertarian]

Xeones, did you catch the Mad TV bit where Dick Armey showed up with his wife Vagina Coastguard?

I'm probably misremembering the hell out of it, but funny either way.

[Alan Vanneman]

I'll stop towing the lion when you pry it from my cold, dead hands. Fusionistism rocks! Oh, and, by the way, A Rasmussen poll on April 16-17 found 0.051% (give or take a few) to have a very favorable or somewhat favorable impression of Nick's jacket.

[Tony]

I don't think anyone has ever proven to be quite so disingenuous this quickly before.

How dare he actually follow through on his campaign promises! Politicians aren't supposed to do that.

[Brandon]

I don't get picking September 12th for Tea Party II. This movement has already allowed its message to be misinterpreted and diluted by causes other than its anti-bailout, anti-spending origins. Why allow terrorism, 9/11 truth, Iraq etc. to be potentially thrown into the mix?

[wingnutx]

" this is about hating a black man in the White House. This is racism straight up. "

[Orange Line Special]

Here's the call for Tea Party II on July 4th.

Alternatively, sane people who support our laws and who want to actually be effective should see my suggestions above.

[Farting for Dollars]

What part of STFU LoneWacko escapes your mental grasp?

[? Libertarian]

wingnutx, link is blocked at work. Is that quote from Jenene Garafalo of Mystery Men fame?

[wingnutx]

? Libertarian, it sure is.

She goes on at length, and Keith Olbermann nods and mutters "yes, yes..." at every point.

[Xeones]

How dare he actually follow through on his campaign promises! Politicians aren't supposed to do that.

Keep it up. This is great.

[Xeones]

What part of STFU LoneWacko escapes your mental grasp?

If you want to ask the WackedOne a question you have to videorecord it and post it on YouTube.

[Eigenman]

We seriously need a Stephen Colbert-style parody of Olbermann. The pudendum needs to swing back the other way.

[Another Phil]

FUCK DICK ARMEY

Give him credit for having the greatest name ever though.

[classwarrior]

For those asking (in good faith)about sources here's one, and there are others:

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/04/15/armey-financial-giants/

[elvis]

Great info. I put your link up at http://www.strongerthandeath.net!

[Blue]

Now I it's all making sense classist.
WE'RE THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS PEOPLE!

Those teabagger people were hired by Dick Armey to protest taxpayer bailouts of companies like AIG.

But Dick was funded by AIG... who in part, was funded by Obama and the US Congress with taxes.

Therefore the anti-tax protesters are just tools of the OCTOBAMA!!!

[B.P.]

So, you're admitting you have nothing classwarrior. This is my favorite from Thinkprogress:

"Despite these attempts to make the "movement" appear organic, the principle organizers of the local events are actually the lobbyist-run think tanks Americans for Prosperity and Freedom Works. The two groups are heavily staffed and well funded, and are providing all the logistical and public relations work necessary for planning coast-to-coast protests"

Apart from being semi-literate, this is a lie.

[Blue]

Therefore the anti-tax protesters are just tools of the OCTOBAMA!!!

Hey, wait a minute classist. That doesn't make fuckall of sense. You'll need to explain... in very great detail. [slow day at work]

[ORourkian]

I don't recall ever seeing an administration nearly quadruple the deficit so early in the game. And, the fact that Pelosi and Reid are lying liars who lie helps a lot.

[amr]

To whomever: Just formed up last week is a Valley Forge, PA Tea Party on April 25th. I've been to 5 tea parties, have attended organizational meetings and I have yet to see an institutional or big money influence. Now 5 out of thousands is certainly not conclusive, but it does have a bit of standing.

An organizer I met at a previous tea party will take my proposal for utilizing MLK's tactics to fight this congress and administration's spending policies to his grassroots organization for support. Picketing local offices of the spending offenders would be a good start. Tea Party organizers have contacts throughout the country via their conference calls with other tea party organizers. This may be a grassroots effort, but they do share information. I am also trying to rally the 912ers for this action too.

Here's hoping that a major portion of the 500,000 or so protesters can be mobilized to carry forth with our opposition to the attempt to spend and tax us into economic rumination and the loss of personal and economic freedom that will result.

[Tony]

I don't recall ever seeing an administration nearly quadruple the deficit so early in the game. And, the fact that Pelosi and Reid are lying liars who lie helps a lot.

They've laid out in plain language why they think the massive spending was necessary. So far, nobody has come up with an alternative fact-based means of stopping the economic hemorrhage. Nobody likes it. There just aren't any appealing or even fair ways to rescue a vast economy on the verge of collapse. Criticize the methods, but come up with alternatives and at least lay some blame at the forces that caused the collapse in the first place.

As for Speaker Pelosi and Senator Reid, do you know anything about them other than "they are evil because Rush says so?"

[Dave]

OH, if it came from ThinkProgress it must be true. /sarcasm

[Jim Treacher]

They've laid out in plain language why they think the massive spending was necessary.

Yeah, because Bush spent a lot less massively. Have fun carting a wheelbarrow of cash to buy a loaf of bread.

[Jeff]

I'd just suggest that people let people think it was astroturf. They'll be all the more surprised when the political fallout happens. I was on board the day after Santellis famous speech on the floor of the Chicago Board of Trade. The hundreds of thousands of people who went to the parties know they weren't bamboozled into attending too, so the people that make the astroturf claim lose all credibility immediately.

So if they want to believe it was astroturf, let them. By the time they figure out that it isn't, it will be too late for them to mount a good defense.

[Tony]

Jeff,

If you were bamboozled into something, how would you know? If you knew, wouldn't you not have been bamboozled in the first place?

I'm willing to believe you guys that this was your idea first, but like all your ideas it was co-opted by the GOP media machine and turned into a political stunt, and turned out to be a fairly pathetic one at that.

But people who don't expand their information gathering beyond GOP-approved sources wouldn't know that.

[Orange Line Special]

If most useful idiots knew they were useful idiots, the term wouldn't really apply so strongly, right?

Regarding the Valley Forge, PA Tea Party guy, he'd be nowhere without the support he's ignoring or not aware of, such as the FoxNews ads for the "movement", Freedomworks pushing the "movement", and so on. Without all those, he'd just be some guy with five friends and two loopy signs.

And, what's hilarious about the current crop of useful idiots is that they don't realize how those for whom they're useful idiots have and most likely will stab them in the back: those pulling the strings support massive immigration.

[Blue]

"Criticize the methods, but come up with alternatives and at least lay some blame at the forces that caused the collapse in the first place."

Oh ME! Oh ME! Call on MEEEE!

[livermoron]

Tony:
Co-opted by the GOP media machine? You ever actually tried critical thinking? What is the GOP media machine? Rush Limbaugh? How does he equal up to the NYT, Newsweek, Time, LAT, Boston Globe, MSNBC, CBS, CNN, etc? Is it Fox News? They get accused of bias, but independent stdies show that they are indeed the most balanced. Fairly pathetic? With attendance at over 500,000 people it compares with the anti-iraq war protests.
Pew research just came out with a study showing that Republicans are much more informed than Democrats. Instead of just taking easily refutable talking points at face value and then regurgitaing them, our democracy would be better served if you and your ilk actually learned to think for yourselves.

[Tony]

livermoron,

What is the GOP media machine?

FOX news, talk radio, and a few really pathetic attempts at blogs.

How does he equal up to the NYT, Newsweek, Time, LAT, Boston Globe, MSNBC, CBS, CNN, etc?

You mean mainstream sources of news that everyone in the world goes to for valid information?

They get accused of bias, but independent stdies show that they are indeed the most balanced.

I know you're not referring to the Center for Media and Public Affairs study (100% funded by conservative interests).

Even if I accept the premise that its news coverage is balanced, nobody can deny that its punditry leans almost universally to the right. And can you name another mainstream "news" outfit that was founded by a political operative?

FOX news has been caught multiple times delivering GOP talking points verbatim on air.

Even the concept of "balance" was a FOX news creation, that comes with the suggestion that facts aren't important, it's providing equal parts criticism to two sides of an issue regardless of facts. I reject the idea that news has to be "balanced" in this way totally.

With attendance at over 500,000 people it compares with the anti-iraq war protests.

Would you be referring to the 36 million people who showed up to protest 3,000 times in the first 4 months of 2003, and the many protests since?

Pew research just came out with a study showing that Republicans are much more informed than Democrats.

Really? I was just reading a poll that put Daily Show viewers as the most informed about current events, and FOX viewers as dead last.

[JP]

Would you be referring to the 36 million people who showed up to protest 3,000 times in the first 4 months of 2003, and the many protests since?

I'd be interested in a source for that. 36 million is over 10% of the total US population.

[Orange Line NOT SO Special]

Liberals are emotional; their brains are broken. Logic won't persuade them.
They still bash BUSH and defend Marxism on display like it's patriotic.

Take away their megaphone. Cancel ALL print media and cable TV until the 2010 election is over.

Attend your local city and town hall meetings. FORCE them to pay as you go - stop taking State and Federal money. Don't start unnecessary projects that can't be funded locally. Federal Money is OUR money.

HOLD A TEA PARTY IN YOUR TOWN OR CITY. You can do this ON YOUR OWN!
Ignore brainless emoticons on this or any other blog.

[livermoron]

Do you have to stick your fingers down your throat to spew that or are you naturally able to perform reverse peristalsis?
Was it Fox news who created the Bush/TNG memos? Or was it your mainstream media? Only an idiot relies on those folk for 'facts'.
You are the problem. But I bet you feel good about yourself. That's what really counts.

[Tim Cavanaugh]

Who knew that this year's Reason Weekend was held in the snowed-in, totally empty Overlook Hotel?

[Guy]

Hi,

I'm interested in learning more about what Matt Kibbe said about the best thing the government can do is get out of the way in an economic crisis.

I'm not sure if those were his exact words but he did mention that if you look at history you can find reasons why that is.

Does anyone have any references to literature, blog posts, etc. where I can learn more about why government spending causes problems?

I have friends who are saying that we had to have the stimulus to get out of this downturn and I disagree but only because I think taking on more and more debt is not a good thing but I'm sure there is much more than that and I want to learn all I can.

[Tim Cavanaugh]

So far, nobody has come up with an alternative fact-based means of stopping the economic hemorrhage. Nobody likes it. There just aren't any appealing or even fair ways to rescue a vast economy on the verge of collapse. Criticize the methods, but come up with alternatives and at least lay some blame at the forces that caused the collapse in the first place.

1. Do not use metaphors when you're talking about the news. It's not a "hemmorhage." It's the long-postponed (by monetary policy) devaluation of an economy that was overvalued by tens of trillions of dollars. It is not over, it can not be stopped by any government, and it is the solution, not the problem.

2. "Nobody likes it." Nobody likes poverty or starvation either, but those are the natural states of humanity, a fact that the cleverness and prudence of generations beyond count have helped to shield us from.

3. Here's an alternative: Say, "I'm sorry, but there's nothing we can do. There are no solutions because the recession is the solution. If the disappearance of trillions of dollars into bailouts and stimulus -- with not one iota of evidence that economic activity is improving -- has not convinced you of this, then you're not just poor but foolish."

[ken in sc]

In Greenville SC, some GOP candidates who showed up were boo'ed and some people turned their backs on them. Others were asked not to come. It was not a GOP event. If the GOP has tried to coop the Tea Party movement, they have not been successful.

[Tim Cavanaugh]

And that "foolish" is directed at hypothetical t-shirt-and-fanny-pack-wearing American slobs, not any of the people on this interesting thread, all of whom are above average.

[Paul]

wingnutx, link is blocked at work.

Make friends with the IT guy.

[Paul]

all of whom are above average.

Above average what?

[Paul]

Is that quote from Jenene Garafalo of Mystery Men fame?

Yes. Or better known from The Truth about Cats and Dogs fame.

That poor girl is just unhinged...

She used to make me mad, now I want to call my wife in the E.R. and ask, "is there something we can do for this person? Some services we can steer her toward?"

I truly ache for the pain she must feel.

[wingnutx]

There was plenty of GOP-slamming at the one in Phoenix, as well as a few speakers who are part of the GOP.

[JP]

I'm interested in learning more about what Matt Kibbe said about the best thing the government can do is get out of the way in an economic crisis.

I can't think of one source that lays it all out, but I would suggest the following for starters:

- Economics in One Lesson, by Hazlitt (free download available at the Foundation for Economic Freedom website)

- Basic Economics, by Thomas Sowell

- the posts at the Cafe Hayek blog and Cato at Liberty blog

[Tony]

I'd be interested in a source for that. 36 million is over 10% of the total US population.

That is a worldwide figure I got from Wikipedia. While you'll counter that we're talking about American protests, (I'd like to know how many teabagging parties were held elsewhere in the world), in a pissing contest such as this it is not irrelevant to note that Feb. 13, 2003 is recognized by Guinness as the largest protest in human history.

[ORourkian]

"As for Speaker Pelosi and Senator Reid, do you know anything about them other than "they are evil because Rush says so?""

Rush!? I love their song "Today's Tom Sawyer"! They TOTALLY rock, dude! In which song do they mention Pelosi and Reid...I must listen!

[Tony]

Tim,

I'm sorry, but there's nothing we can do. There are no solutions because the recession is the solution.

I'll take this as a distillation of your point.

This is the biggest economic meltdown since the Great Depression, and excuse the metaphor but this isn't some common occurrence. If it were, you can be sure the American people would demand as much regulation as possible to counter it.

For, as it turns out, sound economic policy can prevent the types of crises you defend as necessary evils. What ended the Great Depression was massive government spending. We're trying to repeat the success of the New Deal and WWII in a faster, better informed, and hopefully world-war-lacking way.

But on cue you're going to say that the Great Depression was prolonged by government spending, despite the preponderance of evidence.

[Tony]

I mean you guys could just pretend we're fighting WWIII. I'm sure it would dampen your opposition to government spending if we had some shit to blow up.

In a way that's just what we're doing, only the ideology we're opposing is not Naziism or Fascism, but Laissez-faire capitalism. Just be glad you don't have to go get turned into bomb fodder for the cause.

[Tim Cavanaugh]

Tony: "Meltdown" is another metaphor. A meltdown is the melting of a significant portion of a nuclear reactor core caused by insufficient cooling. It has nothing to do with finance, jobs, industry or anything else. It's just more hysterics. Saying this is the biggest meltdown since the Depression is as valuable as saying it's the biggest jabberwock since brillig.

We are looking at a very specific circumstance: a stoppage of lending that has occured in reaction to a massive amount of bad debt and leverage -- which in turn was encouraged by specific public and monetary policies. You are proposing that we solve that problem by taking on more debt and becoming even more leveraged, this time at the level of money creation rather than money management.

Even if we concede your point that massive government spending ended the Depression (I don't), your conflating of the "success" of the New Deal and World War II is another cheat: The U.S. portion of the war was well underway before the Depression ended. Even using your post hoc ergo propter hoc logic, that would mean the war, not the New Deal (which by that point had been in effect for a decade), ended the Depression. I don't believe government spending can activate an economy for the same reason I don't believe a tapeworm can build up its host's muscle density, but at least your logic should be consistent.

[wingnutx]

Obama's vorpal pen went snicker-snack!

[FDR\'s Secretary of the Treasu]

What ended the Great Depression was massive government spending.

We are spending more money than we have ever spent before and it does not work. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. We have never made good on our promises. I say after eight years of this administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started and an enormous debt to boot.

[The Dave]

OK - I am just going to throw a few things out there
1- To fund WWII, the US had to sell treasury notes to the American people. Being that the military was and still is a federal entity, millions (which back then actually met a lot more then it does now) was taken from the civilian populace to fund a war. So how did the government make enough money to by back the treasury notes from the people? Inflation through the banks, and blowing through a lot of the gold sitting at Ft Knox, even further debasing our currency. We have less the 1/5 left of the original gold stolen from the fed govt by the Gold Reserve Act of 1930 in an attempt to stop the great depression.

2- Going back further - In 1913 the Federal Reserve Act was put in place. The 16th amendment was ratified to tax individual income as well. Around 1920 or so, banks started increasing their margin allowances to buy stock. So people started buying stock with money they never really had. In 1929 the New York stock exchange started panicking because of the debt piled up by said margin calls that were being used to pay for stocks that weren't worth the market price. So as banks started tightening their belts, people panicked, and so started the first great depression in 1929.

3- On December 3, 1929 Hoover announced that the worst of the depression (less then 2 months from its hardest hit) was over, and that the American people had regained faith in the economy. This is a close to home example of belief vs. reality. Oddly enough the city of New York had enough money to open an Art Museum.

4- 02 December 1930. Economy is still hurting. US President Herbert Hoover goes before Congress and asks for a US$150 million public works program to help generate jobs and stimulate the economy. (First Bail out). Note that in the same year it became a crime for people to keep gold coinage, bullion, etc.

5- 06 June 1932, The Revenue Act of 1932 is enacted, creating the first gas tax in the United States, at a rate of 1 cent per US gallon (26 ?/L) sold. Taxes to help pay for first stimulus (note the pattern here, and that the 'stimulus did not work back then either as the Great Depression remains ongoing. The Dow hits a new low of 41.22.

I could go on and on, but I think you would all get the point. If you trust our current and past administrations are doing the right thing, then you are entitled to your opinion, as I am entitled to mine. However I am bug believer of the phrase 'those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it'.

HAND (have a nice day)

[The Dave]

In addition to last -
It should also be noted that between 1920 and 1930, the National decreased from 25 to 16 billion as WWI was being paid off. From 1930 to 1940 the debt increase dramatically to 43 billion. This means that the debt increased despite the 649.6 million ounces of gold that it stole from its own people. We only 147.3 million ounces left by the way according to the Mint.
After 1945 when the war was facing its end, the debt continued to rise to 257 billion by 1950. It hasn't gone down since.
So ask yourself - Why was a recovery being made after WW1 but not WWII?
Well, this is where inflation kicks in. In the mid 1930's, inflation started kicking in. More money that is worth less. In the late 30's a brief period of deflation hit, but soon ended when in 1940. Remember that high periods of inflation equal more spending. If you don't spend money, the govt will. That is a historical fact. As long as the banks fuel this debt based economy, and the govt backs those banks, we are all subservient to this machine that profits off of the ignorance of the people. Shoot, even Wilson acknowledged the fact that it was a thing, as did Thomas Jefferson.
So now we have not only less production and less backing to our dollar, it continues to be devalued through reckless spending. As Scrooge McDuck told Huey Lewey and Duey back in 1969, this is a very scary thing.
What brought so much interest to these tea-parties, was that Obama accelerated the spending rate to an unheard of high, to accomplish something that history shows us is not feasible.
In all fairness to Obama, he is not the first to do this, and does not deserve all the blame on him alone. Once again - history tells a wonderful story to those who care to listen.
Now the Murdoch owned media like Beck, and many others have turned the Tea party movement (made famous originally by Ron Paul) into a mockery. It has been turned into more of a social event, and grand standing then a real movement. Which is a damn shame because the original movement held a damn good purpose.

[The Dave]

I guess what I am trying to say is that the only thing government spending increases accomplishes, is upping the perception of the historically ignorant who honestly believe that it actually works.
In turn, it increases debt, lowers productivity, increases govt theft fraud and abuse, oppresses the people while claiming to help it, and makes a pain of itself to both its citizens and the rest of the world as well.

However people themselves are also to blame for not only allowing and voting for it, but by increasing their dependency on it.

The piper is playing - will you follow like a rat into the river?

[Tony]

your conflating of the "success" of the New Deal and World War II is another cheat: The U.S. portion of the war was well underway before the Depression ended.

You seem to be missing my point, which is that the New Deal and the war can both be seen as massive government spending. All you have to do is look at indicators for that period. Did it take many years? Yes--that's why this time around we're trying to fix the problem quickly and without the waste of a world war.

[amr]

For those of you out there who ridiculed the tea party attendees, I suppose you believe in extremely high deficient spending while your like minded pundits condemned Bush's considerably less excessive spending. So $8 billion in pork spending was insignificant in the budget, but Obama's $100 million cut is significant. Good logic there from spokesperson Gibbs.

And why is it no one addressed the use of MLK tactics against congress to impress upon them the need to stop spending our country into ruination? Hey, just asking.

[Bruce Majors]

Janeane Garofalo will be at the AltCom Festival in Somerville, MA on May 8th. Check out http://www.altcomfestival.com/index.php for more info! Show her how you feel

Douse fascist flaks with buckets of tea!

[The Dave]

Tony-

"You seem to be missing my point, which is that the New Deal and the war can both be seen as massive government spending. All you have to do is look at indicators for that period. Did it take many years? Yes--that's why this time around we're trying to fix the problem quickly and without the waste of a world war."

During the 'New Deal' the deficit skyrocket and inflation went up as well. How do you see this as working to help out the economy?
War did not create any new wealth either - Nor does it today. After WW1 the deficit went down due to massive inflation. Due to easier money supply, treasury securities were able to be redeemed, and as such the National debt started going down at the cost of inflation. Instead of restoring the interest rate down to more nominal levels, the Fed kept it high making easy money that enabled banks to make huge margin allowances which when called by JP Morgan caused several bank runs that forced the banks to tighten the money supply. As such, people finally had to own up to the fact that there was simply no money left to get out the situation. Instead of allowing prices to fall and production to increase, the Depression was even more inflated by easier money, and 'the New Deal'. The fact is a war machine is very expensive to build and maintain, and even more expensive to employ to foriegn soil. Money buys beans and bullets - neither of which is a renewable resource of income unless reperations are made by the country we wage war against. That is why going to war is never profitable. And if these economic guru's are right when they said that, then how come they have only maintained society by debt? So yes war does not help, but neither does devaluing the dollar, creating inflation, increasing national debt. Especially when coupled with the facts that we are still occupy over 10 foreign countries, still maintain the most expensive military in the world, pay billions to bail out the banks who created this mess, steal money from citizens and corporations and give it to the government who claims that the 'big corporations are the real problems'....geez man, don't you get it?

[The Dave]

Also - in 1929 it was often said by the News Papers and politicians how strong and sound the economy was - then not even 5 months later, the Great Depression started. Sound familiar?

[JohnD]

Tony may just be the most uninformed person I've ever seen on this site.

Is he for real or just a straw man Reason put up to be a counterpoint? BTW, Tony, most historians say the great depression was actualy LENGTHENED by Roosevelt.

And I remember the Carter days. Massive unemployment and double digit inflation.

The governemnt is doing nothing worthwhile to end this recession. In fact, they will make it worse by creating massive debt for little good reason. We will soon be relegated to the status of a third world country.

[Buck Steele]

Tony, I believe you've stumbled upon the solution. Since our involvement in WWII got us out of the depression, then this is our opportunity to invade China via N. Korea...and this time, we'll go all the way to Moscow. That'll fix our economy.

I'll make it a bit more palatable for you, though. Based on your premise that war spending had a positive impact, I guess we could build a bunch of ships and airplanes, load them all up with tanks, and them dump them all into the ocean. Of course, we will have a large excess population since we didn't kill all the sailors, soldiers, and airmen, but since they probably cause global warming anyhow, I'm sure we can find a way to euthanize a few million males between the ages of 18 and 35 so we can replicate that situation to which you so fondly refer....I gotta say this, because I'm so pissed off at pretty much everything you say...JERK!@!!!

[John C. Randolph]

Tony may just be the most uninformed person I've ever seen on this site.

I think the term I would use is "disinformed". Tony has swallowed the Ruling Party line, and can't be bothered to question it.

-jcr