Do You Resent the Rich Or High Marginal Tax Rates More? Vote!
Over The Economist, a spirited and depressing debate (for reasons I'll explain in a second) is going on between French economist Thomas Piketty and the Cato Institute's Chris Edwards. The proposition being argued is "This house believes that the rich should pay higher taxes" (because it's an English rag, The Economist has to follow all sorts of stuffy Britoid conventions out of Tomkinson's Schooldays; look for their editorial board to expire in a series of autoerotic asphyxiation accidents someday).
Piketty wants to impose a top marginal rate of 80 percent on all incomes above €1 million—or more than twice what the top rate would be in the U.S. even under Obama's proposition. To get inside the head of someone who wants to jack rates that high, note that he concedes that the goal is not increased revenue but something like social justice (his version of it anyway) and because he believes if you squeeze the balloon at the top, the air will redistribute to the bottom:
The main objective of raising marginal tax rates on the rich is not to raise additional tax revenue, but rather to keep top compensation under control and to curb the grabbing hand. In fact, the proposal that I am making—introducing a 80% marginal tax rate on all annual incomes in excess of €1m, leaving the rest of the tax system unchanged-would probably raise limited additional tax revenue….
I've got little sympathy for the rich or even the relatively well-off (and don't even get me started on people who consider themselves middle class and are in the top 20 percent of income-earning households—those of you in households making more than $88,000 know who you are). Piketty mentions empirical work on the effects of marginal tax rates on the very rich (typically defined as the top 1 percent or 5 percent of earners) and he's right that there is little empirical evidence to suggest that millionaires stop working hard if rates go from 35 percent to 39 percent or even higher. However, if his goal is to curb "grabbing hands" and all that, then he needs to demonstrate that penalizing the rich via higher marginal rates will actually raise the bottom of the income ladder. He doesn't do that because he can't. He's in love with the period from 1932-1980 because he says that high top marginal tax rates kept the super-rich in check. Forget the stupidity of that statement for a second and focus instead on what life was like for, say, the bottom 10 percent. Would anybody seriously doubt that over the past 30 years that the poor's material living standards have increased dramatically, all while the grabbing hands of the rich have gotten relatively more loot? As Michael Cox and Richard Alm have shown, the poor today have, on average, far more amenities than typical Americans did in 1970.
Piketty fails to mention the grabbing hand of government, naturally. But here's something to consider in any discussion of "grabbing hands": In 1980, the top 5 percent of households paid 37 percent of all income taxes in the U.S. By 2006, that share had grown to 60 percent. How much of total income did the top 5 percent snag in 2006? About 37 percent. That's high for sure, but not nearly as high as the amount of tax they kick in. As for the top 1 percent, in 2006 they snagged about 20 percent of total income and kicked in about 40 percent of total income tax revenues. (The above stats are embedded in various tables here.)
The grabbiest hand, in short, belongs to Uncle Sam. And if anybody thinks that the government is going to be a fair and honest broker in redistributing income, well, I've got some toxic assets you can buy at an enormous premium.
What's depressing about The Economist debate (other than the superflous "u" in words such as labor, a waste of time and energy that must be a drag on the economy)? Readers can vote on what side should triumph and Piketty is winning, despite the (IMO) stronger arguments of Chris Edwards.
Go here to read the whole thing and to vote.
Hat Tip: Veronique de Rugy of Mercatus.
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You know I heard somewhere that the grabbing hands grab all they can. All for themselves, after all.
Social justice? These people are so confused. If the rich were enslaving people and taking all their wealth away, then you could talk about social justice. But in Western society? If anything, the social justice argument lies with the people who are having their property taken from them to give to people who've done nothing to deserve that property. Nothing.
Robin-hoodism is a severe mental illness. To see a case that has obviously gone untreated for so long is horrifying. So much for the superiority of socialized medicine.
I've never seen correlation between raising the marginal tax rate and increased welfare for the bottom 25%.
I'm gonna send Piketty that Thatcher Youtube.
Yes, what about that? They taxed the hell out of wealthy people in the U.K. at one point. Did the poor become better off? Or did the entire economy tank, resulting in a lurch away from wealth redistribution? How many times must this play out before people realize that theft is wrong?
Pro Lib, lemme put away my "dumbassy the troll" hat and ask a few questions.
A large number of folks in the U.S. aren't producing value. I am one of them. I have severe physical ailments that make it very very difficult to be productive. Many people don't have those limitations, yet produce no value. How do we get them/me off the dole and producing value?
How do we as a nation provide for those incapable of producing value?
those of you in households making more than $88,000 know who you are
It's nice to know that my donations to Reason aren't being wasted on lavish salaries. 😉
As both a progressive and a libertarian (yes, the two can go together - for instance opposing the inflationary nature of government deficitspending due to it's disproportionate negative impact on the poor.) I do think that the rich should pay slightly higher tax rates than the poor (emphasis on slightly - not absurdly higher like Piketty suggests). But everyone should pay much, much lower taxes (meaning much, much less government spending).
My basis for this has nothing to do with class envy and everything to do with the value of each dollar as being inversely proportional to income - when you have less money, you need devote proportionately more of less money to non-discretionary spending like rent, food, bills, medical care, etc. I don't mind the fact that people at the bottom don't pay taxes at all because pretty much all of their money has to go to non-discretionary spending, and even that they are forced to cut way back. I'd rather them be using their own money than government welfare to pay for that.
If we are going to have an income tax, I would consider a non-discretionary baseline on the bare minimums needed to cover the cost of living - if you make less than that, you should pay no taxes. If you make more than that, you should only be taxed on the income above that non-discretionary baseline, and have a slightly progressive scale so the lower middle class aren't pinched by tax rates. A dollar to a person making $40,000 a year is weighted a lot higher than a dollar to a person making $10,000,000 a year. If you are taxed at 25% on $10 million vs. 15% on $40,000, the 25% is still going to impact the wealthy person's quality of life far less than the 15% will the middle class person's.
Personally, though, I'd prefer a naturally progressive tax system, like a land value tax with exemptions for negligible ownership instead of the intrusive and wasteful income tax structure.
I'm certainly sympathetic to people who can't provide for themselves, but I honestly believe that a freer society, without government-run wealth redistribution--a society which would certainly be far wealthier as a whole than what we have today--would still have all of the good motives about helping people in need. There are surely nongovernmental options than could fill the gap if welfare and other support systems were to go away.
I'm horrified at the political use to which people on the left put people in need. Money is taken from us all, but does it really land in the hands of people who need it? We've spend many trillions on welfare, and what do we have to show for it? Government is corrupt, and both parties want to use that money to ensure their continued grasp on power. Period.
Incidentally, I could live with the idea of excluding lower incomes from, say, a flat tax scheme. For instance, we could simply exclude people making less than $35,000/year from paying any income tax (with some sort of graduated scale to prevent people from having to go from zero to 15% or whatever).
As for that Piketty guy, the WSJ had an opinion piece on March 12 ("The Obama Rosetta Stone"), in which they pointed out that Piketty's "research" forms a basis for the Obama budget, according to his budget book: "A New Era of Responsibility: Renewing America's Promise. The President's Budget and Fiscal Preview"
Hopefully this link to the WSJ piece will work for non-subscribers: Click hier.
... and taking all their wealth away,
So all the banking shenanigans that have occurred and are still occurring...none of that is taking wealth away from people? Really?
Cuz I see a lot of people who invested in these things losing money while the commissions and fees and bonuses still got paid.
ANd then there is the whole taxpayer bailing out the banks. Bailing out banks and paying near full value for bad assets is absolutely stealing away the wealth of the lower classes.
he's right that there is little empirical evidence to suggest that millionaires stop working hard if rates go from 35 percent to 39 percent or even higher.
This can't be right.
I mean I keep hearing how raising the marginal tax rates back to Clinton-era levels is going to cause the "wealth producers" to go Galt and then society will be screwed when the MOST PRODUCTIVE MEMBERS OF SOCIETY decide to take their ball and go away.
Piketty wants to impose a top marginal rate of 80 percent on all incomes above ?1 million-or more than twice what the top rate would be in the U.S. even under Obama's proposition
Also wanted to add that this is an insanely stupid idea and I agree with the sentiment that doing won't in fact help others get out of poverty.
And even if it did, it would still be a stupid idea.
and don't even get me started on people who consider themselves middle class and are in the top 20 percent of income-earning households-those of you in households making more than $88,000 know who you are
Is my tongue-in-cheek detector broken today?
To get inside the head of someone who wants to jack rates that high, note that he concedes that the goal is not increased revenue but something like social justice (his version of it anyway) and because he believes if you squeeze the balloon at the top, the air will redistribute to the bottom
I know a couple of Americans who believe that nonsense.
Fekkin' eedjits.
Social Justice: What has occurred when a socialist gets slugged in the teeth.
What's depressing about The Economist debate? Readers can vote on what side should triumph and Piketty is winning, despite the (IMO) stronger arguments of Chris Edwards.
More socialists read the Economist then pro free market poeple do....
I could have told you that 10 years ago when I first read the magazine...why would you be depressed by that? or even surprised?
Excellent. I knew I was dirt poor.
Thank you, brother Paul. Personally, I'd like to ask why the author doesn't consider cost of living in there. Somebody making $45,000/year in small-town New Mexico is doing pretty damn well; somebody making that in NYC is strictly middle-class. Ignoring cost-of-living is pretty dumb, since it's a big driver of salaries.
If all rich people are greedy, then it is obvious that increasing their tax rate will result in them firing a chunk of their employees and/or increasing the price of what they produce while still retaining the same lifestyle.
As for Galt's Gulch, it will occur the moment another country becomes a better place for rich people to live. For instance, if China were to become one giant Hong Kong (in terms of business operations), then yes, continued pressure on the top earners will result in them leaving for more stir-fryed cuisine.
It seems to me that saying that the richest 1% of individuals pay X% of taxes is using the wrong metric and is comparing apples to oranges.
This is probably impractical, but I think it might be possible to devise a fairer system by simply scaling individuals' federal tax liability to the proportionate benefit one gains by being in the U.S. by looking at it as what percent of GDP did each individual (and perhaps business) benefit. In other words, if your total income were 0.001 of GDP, then your tax liability should be 0.001 of the total cost of the federal government for that year. One would leave out individuals at the bottom of the income scale who only have enough income to purchase the necessities of survival.
thoughts?
I think a more effective argument in favor of extremely high marginal tax rates would be that it may help curb the political influence of the extremely wealthy and megacorporations. Maybe they'd have less to spend on bribes. I don't know that it works out logically, but general spite is certainly not a better reason. That rarely works out better for anybody - for all the killing and stealing that communist revolutionaries do, for instance, you don't really see a lot of healthy, happy communists.
Curbing political influence is definitely a noble cause, if for no other reason because the entrenched and powerful have a strong motivation to stifle innovation and competition. Why I pay more in business taxes as a sole proprietor than Wal-Mart for instance I'll never know.