Saudi Arabia

Q: Why is Obama Bowing to The King of Saudi Arabia? A:…

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…perhaps because that's what American presidents do, literally and figuratively, to their (and the country's) discredit. And if not bow exactly, then walk hand-in-hand with top Saudis in fields of flowers.

Via Drudge comes Camille Paglia's exasperation with Barack Obama and his churlish retinue:

Obama's staffing problems are blatant—from that bleating boy of a treasury secretary to what appears to be a total vacuum where a chief of protocol should be. There has been one needless gaffe after another—from the president's tacky appearance on a late-night comedy show to the kitsch gifts given to the British prime minister, followed by the sweater-clad first lady's over-familiarity with the queen and culminating in the jaw-dropping spectacle of a president of the United States bowing to the king of Saudi Arabia. Why was protest about the latter indignity confined to conservatives? The silence of the major media was a disgrace. But I attribute that embarrassing incident not to Obama's sinister or naive appeasement of the Muslim world but to a simple if costly breakdown in basic command of protocol.

Whole thing here.

Paglia interviewed in Reason back in 1995.

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337 responses to “Q: Why is Obama Bowing to The King of Saudi Arabia? A:…

  1. raivo pommer-www.google.ee
    raimo1@hot.ee

    GM-Aktien

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    Investor – dringend gesucht

    Die US-Regierung hatte die Restrukturierungspl?ne von GM und Chrysler mitsamt deren Bitte um weitere etwa 22 Milliarden Dollar Staatshilfen j?ngst als unzureichend zur?ckgewiesen.

    Sie hatte GM 60 Tage Zeit gegeben, ein neues Sanierungskonzept vorzustellen.

    Opel sucht indes dringend einen Investor, um sich von der ums ?berleben ringenden US-Mutter teilweise zu l?sen.

  2. That is truly a disgusting sight.

    After the first couple of gaffes, why didn’t anyone say, “hey! Maybe we need a protocol adviser!”

    Is Obama living in the same sycophantic vacuum as Bush?

  3. With any hope (he, he), Obama will keep fucking up, get crushed in 2012, and all the positions he championed over the last few months will be considered as moronic as he is.

    Or perhaps I’ll be struck by a meteor today.

    I’ll take either one, really…

  4. Pendant Preemption: Sorry, meteorite. I’m not in space yet…

  5. The latter option would be relatively quick and painless, at least.

  6. Pedant preemption?

    (poor kid, you tried to avoid it and got it in the face anyway)

  7. Also, what the hell kind of shitty day can I have to look forward to when it opens with this disgrace?

    I’d like to crawl back in bed, now.

  8. This is the first I’ve seen of this.

    I cannot properly put in to words, how fucking pathetic this is.

    The President of the United States, is bowing to a king…

    You motherfucker. You submissive, idiotic, worthless, sad excuse for a human being, dumb fucking cunt!

    YOU’RE THE LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD SUPPOSEDLY! AND YOU ARE BOWING TO A KING!

    You know, I do not know if this has happened before with any other President. If it has, that person was equal in patheticness to Obama.

    This is in all honesty, one of the saddest things I’ve ever witnessed in my life.

  9. I thought someone was bringing this up in the comments right after it hapened?

  10. YOU’RE THE LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD SUPPOSEDLY!

    But we have been arrogant in the past. Perhaps this is some of th new non-arrogance.

    Funny about this one here.

  11. There is a poinent story about Jackie Kennedy at JFR’s state funeral. During a recption she curtsied upon meeting the Queen of England. One of her aides looked at her in surprise because he had never seen her do that. She looked at him and said “I am not longer the first lady”. Heads of state and first ladies do not bow to sovereighns. It is like page one of the protocol book.

    BO is a no class, crass neophyte. He is not well educated. He is not well spoken outside of prepared remarks and he is not cultured in any significant way. His performance thus far as a diplomat has shown him to be what people though Sarah Palin would have been as VP only without the good looks and awe shucks charm.

  12. I feel sick. Imagine what our grandparents who fought in WWI would have thought.

  13. Suerly there’s a reasonable explanation to this…like the King of Saud tossed a trillion dollar oil credit on the floor…

  14. The dude is just being polite.

    The real crime is our cozy policy re: that disgusting theocracy.

  15. John, no way in hell Sarah Palin would have bowed/curtsied to that asshole. I’m no huge fan of hers, but it’s damn clear she was no sycophant.

  16. Mme. Paglia’s* howls of rage to the contrary notwithstanding, Obama got pretty good press and pretty good receptions, on his tour. But I do chuckle at the dumb gifts, when it’s so easy to give classy ones–like Lord Cornwallis’ snuff box, left behind at Yorktown. As for bowing before the Saudi king, that’s funny too. Apparently, Obama doesn’t plan on being energy independent any time soon.

    *I am so not interested in reading an interview Reason did with Madame back in ’95. Camille has mutated into a bizarre sort of snob, bitching about breaches of protocol and, as I remember, Madonna’s britches (I just made that up).

  17. It’s ridiculous and asinine to conflate protocol, culture and courtesy with policy.

    The US, including Obama, should be roundly and justly taken to school for their mideast policies, but the tempest in a teapot over this, quite frankly, is retarded.

    Hey! I live in Japan and bow repeatedly every day! I bet I’m a secret Muslim!

  18. “clear she was no sycophant”

    Oh my lord.

    A person who drops her “g”‘s when she thinks the people she is speaking to are “plain folk” and picks them up in front of elites is about as big of a sycophant as you can get.

  19. Pendant Preemption: Sorry, meteorite. I’m not in space yet…

  20. domo,

    Not that she was catholic, but two dollars says she would have kissed the pope’s ring.

  21. Pendant Preemption: Sorry, meteorite. I’m not in space yet…

    There is no reason to assume something wouldnt happen that would cause you to be in space today. You are probably more likely to be shot into space and then hit by a meteor than you are to be hit by a meteorite.

  22. The dude is just being polite.

    Just like he should treat Chavez?

  23. “Heads of state and first ladies do not bow to sovereighns. It is like page one of the protocol book.”

    NO ONE SHOULD BOW TO A FUCKING KING!

    NO ONE!!!

    You know what? I’m not even going to get further worked up over this. It’s not worth my time.

    John, I do not mean this as an attack towards you. The whole concept of “royalty” just really sickens me.

  24. What I think would be important to know is did the folks in the room bow to each other and Obama “replied” by bowing, or did he just walk up to the dude and bow. The latter is not ideal, but again, it’s probably more fair to see it as trying to be polite and part of protocol.

  25. “two dollars says she would have kissed the pope’s ring”

    And Rush Limbaugh’s fat boil infested behind

  26. The dude is just being polite.

    Did the King bow before Obama? If not, is it because he isnt polite?

    Stop excusing fucking idiotic behavior. There is protocol that determines the “polite” thing to do. And when heads of state meet, they are equals.

    Next you will tell me the polite thing to do would have been to dip the US flag during the 1932 olympics.

  27. “Just like he should treat Chavez?”

    Well, God help us, but the Saudi’s are our allies and Chavez is not.

  28. “Did the King bow before Obama?”

    I don’t know. Do you?

  29. The dude is just being polite.

    fuck that, he represents a country. A country that is too goddamn proud to bow to a monarch.

  30. The US, including Obama, should be roundly and justly taken to school for their mideast policies, but the tempest in a teapot over this, quite frankly, is retarded.

    You’re conversing with the group most opposed to US policy in the mid-east, but when your leader deals with leaders of other (supposedly equal footing countries), you don’t expect your leader to behave as an inferior unless you’re surrendering your country’s sovereignty. In Japan, both parties bow to each other. I don’t see the King of Saud returning the favor.

    Let the Sauds come here and try and subdue us before we accept this gross insult.

  31. “I don’t see the King of Saud returning the favor.”

    Again, do we know that or not? I’ve only seen the still photo above. If the King bowed to him, or everyone in the room took turns bowing, then a lot of people here are going to have some crow to eat I should think…

  32. I don’t know. Do you?

    Thats why I asked. A Japanese style equal bow instead of a handshake MIGHT be acceptable, but I dont think that is the case here.

    The key is to follow protocol. See John’s JFK story.

    Seriously, what is your view on the flag incident from the olympics? I think are flag bearer got it right.

  33. s/are/our/

  34. MNG, follow the link and watch the video before crying, “you weren’t there! You don’t know!”

    Just watch the damned video and you can see for yourself.

  35. Is Obama living in the same sycophantic vacuum as Bush?

    Probably about the same on the sycophantic vacuum front. Sycophancy is something of a hazard for our first citizens. Reagan and Clinton seemed to rise above their sycophants. Bush just got swallowed by his.

    But Bush never had any thing near the cult of personality BO has. No matter how much this guy fucks up Team Blue will go rah rah.

    What I’m wondering is what kind of backlash will here when it finally dawns on everyone (well, nearly everyone, he’ll always have some fans) how truly clueless he is.

    And what further irks me is that this guy, like Bush had many qualities that could have been harnessed to make a truly OK presidency. I fear he has started off taking his legend much too seriously.

  36. The Pope thing is interesting.

    Several U.S. Presidents have met the Pope haven’t they? Did they bow when they met him or stoop to kiss the ring? If he did would there be anything wrong with it?

  37. Bush bowed to the pope.

  38. How many fuck ups does this guy get before people admit the truth that he is himself a fuck up? How pathetic did Hillary look giving the PM of Russia a red button? How stupid was it to piss all over Gordon Brown for no apparent reason beyond settling scores for BO’s deadbeat Kenyan father? How many more cheesy stupid protocol gifts are we going to give out. Oh and lets not forget Hillary asking about who painted the beautiful painting of the virgin at the Basilica of Our Lady in Mexico City. Then of course there is BO talking about speaking Austrian. These people are just a bunch of uneducated hicks.

  39. Did they bow when they met him or stoop to kiss the ring? If he did would there be anything wrong with it?

    Dont know – I hope not. Yes (exception for Catholic Presidents meeting him in a religious and not political setting). If the meeting is as head of state of the Vatican, then no kissing the ring. If the prez is catholic and is meeting him as leader of his church, then it is okay.

    In other words, protocol rules.

  40. Bush bowed to the pope.

    Yet more proof that Bush is an idiot.

  41. well, sort of. It was a bob of the head, not the near-floor-scraping bow that Obama enacted before the Saudi king.

    To which point, have you watched the video yet?

  42. Several U.S. Presidents have met the Pope haven’t they? Did they bow when they met him or stoop to kiss the ring? If he did would there be anything wrong with it?

    Since the roots of the customs relating to the papacy are holdovers from the days when it was a real sovreign position, i would consider ring-kissing just as unnacceptable. On the other hand, it’s no where near as distasteful as bowing to a Saudi monarch.

  43. “Just watch the damned video and you can see for yourself.”

    Hey, calm down, I didn’t know there was a link. I just wanted to know before I made a conclusion.

    He just bowed as he walked up, no return bow. Yeah, that was mistake if you ask me. But I would think it’s just him trying to be polite. But he should think about what that represents.

  44. “If he did would there be anything wrong with it?”

    In my opinion, yes. I view it as a slightly lesser offense though seeing as how that President’s personal faith may play a role. The question that raises in my mind is if he does so in public, would it represent his country? I’d say yes to that as well. So if a President wants to do so, do it in private as a man to the head of his faith/Spiritual Leader. Not as the leader of a nation.

  45. I seem to recall that back in her rein as consort to the Emperor of America Nancy Reagan created something of a stir when she refused to curtsy to Mrs Mountbatten-Windsor.

    The Brits and not a few Americans saw it as further proof of how crass and uncouth these damn colonials were.

  46. If the prez is catholic and is meeting him as leader of his church, then it is okay.

    When you’re president, every meeting in public should be considered an official setting. Even if you are devoutly catholic, you are representing those whose views aren’t and your action should be reflected thus in the public sphere. If I feel I’m no servant of the pope, the head of our country shouldn’t portray himself as such, even its just for show.

  47. Being polite as a private citizen is one thing, but when you stand as a head of state, you represent an entire people.

    By bowing before the king, he, in a very real way, made all of us bow.

    Didn’t mean to bite your head off.

  48. Yeah, that was mistake if you ask me.

    Good.

    But I would think it’s just him trying to be polite.

    Its not his job to be fucking polite. It IS his job to follow protocol. He needs to understand the difference between the two.

    But he should think about what that represents.

    Yep, and this comes down to him not having a clue about his job.

  49. LIT,

    I think I agree with you. So, kiss the pope’s ring in private.

    If its public with cameras going and etc, I think you are meeting him as head of state anyway though, so I dont change my position. 🙂

  50. The Brits and not a few Americans saw it as further proof of how crass and uncouth these damn colonials were.

    Just as the south will not rise again, maybe reminding the brits that we aren’t “colonials” is an important gesture every now and then and we rejected the monarchy over two and quarter centuries ago

  51. The Brits and not a few Americans saw it as further proof of how crass and uncouth these damn colonials were.

    And that would be a bad thing why?

    Can we make “Crass and Uncouth” our new national motto?

  52. Do you think the Pope would be pissed off if I just gave him dap?

  53. Just as the south will not rise again, maybe reminding the brits that we aren’t “colonials” is an important gesture every now and then and we rejected the monarchy over two and quarter centuries ago

    On a side note – how did Gibson’s The Patriot do in Britain? How about the John Adams miniseries, did that get shown across the pond?

  54. Just to temper my seemingly stringent patriotism I seem to be displaying, I’d bow to the King of Saud or Queen of England if I was interested in doing business in their country, as its tradition of their people. However, I’d look Obama straight in the eyes and tell him he’s destroying our country, smile politely and turn my back as I walk away.

  55. Hey! I live in Japan and bow repeatedly every day! I bet I’m a secret Muslim!

    People in Japan bow out of a cultural tradition, like a handshake.

    People in Saudi Arabia bow because it’s a sign of subserviance.

    Two different things entirely…

  56. Damn, this left Taktix speechless.

    And good for Nancy, Just say no to idiocy!

  57. I wouldn’t bow before a monarch. As far as I am concerned, the American handshake is an equal-footing, friendly, respectful gesture.

    Politeness or no, there’s no reason for any American to grovel to somebody who was born or killed his way into the job.

  58. Can we make “Crass and Uncouth” our new national motto?

    Only if there’s a corresponding flag depicting not only that phrase, but a grizzly bear holding a shark like he’s preparing to throw it. I have a sketch of this I’m working on.

  59. Ok, what odds on Obama getting rugburn when he meets with the emir of Kuwait?

  60. “I wouldn’t bow before a monarch. As far as I am concerned, the American handshake is an equal-footing, friendly, respectful gesture.

    Politeness or no, there’s no reason for any American to grovel to somebody who was born or killed his way into the job.”

    Thank you.

  61. “Its not his job to be fucking polite.”

    Technically true, but he’s just being human. It’s a human thing to be polite. I should hope.

    He shouldn’t have done it, but I really don’t see it as a big deal…

  62. but a grizzly bear holding a shark like he’s preparing to throw it.

    Don’t you try sneaking Homestar Runner references past me, Art. I’m onto your sneaky ways.

  63. I wouldn’t bow before a monarch. As far as I am concerned, the American handshake is an equal-footing, friendly, respectful gesture.

    and I have no interest in doing business in Saudi Arabia and probably would never meet the queen, so I doubt the issue of bowing would ever come up, but the people of SA or the UK might not be interested in working with you if you snubbed one of their traditions. Sometimes being right is very inconvenient.

  64. Flag dipping incident was 1936 olympics btw, I screwed that up above.

  65. The president of the U.S. doesn’t bow to other leaders. I knew that, and I haven’t even been a senator!

    It’s only symbolic and not terribly important, but it’s still something that shouldn’t be done. I’m all for due courtesy and civility, but I find this sort of thing disturbing. Le’s not forget, too, that Obama doesn’t just go around bowing to people–this was a planned gesture. And a foolish one. Did he bow to Queen Elizabeth, incidentally?

    Maybe he can join the CBC members who are still smitten by Castro–“Oh, I’m all a’flutter!”

  66. It is a bit amusing though to see so many raging individualists upset about this because they see themselves as “collectively represented” by this man…

  67. Don’t you try sneaking Homestar Runner references past me, Art. I’m onto your sneaky ways.

    Dammit! :::throws away sketch:::

  68. I know you’re trying, MNG. But you just aren’t as entertaining as joe was. You can twist yourself into a half-pretzel, but that’s just about it.

  69. MNG,

    Technically true, but he’s just being human. It’s a human thing to be polite. I should hope.

    Cheezy edit job. Put the sentence of mine you quoted with the next and it makes more sense. As President he has to override some of his humanity and do the fucking right thing instead.

    He wasnt elected to be human, he was elected to be President.

  70. It is a bit amusing though to see so many raging individualists upset about this because they see themselves as “collectively represented” by this man…

    In a sense we are…or did anyone here manage to evade taxes and regulations last year. Just because we don’t necessarily like it doesn’t make it not true.

  71. “And a foolish one. Did he bow to Queen Elizabeth, incidentally?”

    No he did not. But doing so would have displeased his deceased deadbeat father. We have a President who is using diplomacy with our closest ally as a way to work out his abadonment issues. Gee, the country is in the best of hands.

  72. “It is a bit amusing though to see so many raging individualists upset about this because they see themselves as “collectively represented” by this man…”

    He doesn’t represent me. I just think he is a moron and like to point out when he does stupid things, which is often.

  73. Did he bow to Queen Elizabeth, incidentally?

    Good question. If it is about politeness, why didnt he (assuming he didnt) do it then too?

    If he bowed to QE2, I will buy the politeness argument. If not, that goes out the window and this is a MUCH worse mistake.

  74. What, you think the President as figurehead stands only for himself?

    It’s not amusing at all, MNG.

    Being a “raging individualist” and recognizing that the President of the United States represents all US citizens (or should, anyway) is not a contradiction.

  75. It is a bit amusing though to see so many raging individualists upset about this because they see themselves as “collectively represented” by this man.

    Assuming that you believe you are collectively represented by this man, I find it bizarre that you’re willing to contort yourself to defend how you were just represented to a repugnant monarcho-theocracy.

    The individualists can at least say that they’re patriotic. What’s your excuse?

  76. did anyone here manage to evade taxes

    I came close. My mortgage interest deduction was double 2007, I maxed out my deductible stock losses, I had a few other 1 time deductions – I hit the motherlode for minimizing taxes in 2008.

    I still paid too much.

  77. Apparently, he was just going to offer the King a salute, but he realized he didn’t speak Saudian…

  78. robc,

    I think your accountant would have advised you to use the phrase “avoided taxes”, not “evaded”. The IRS is very clear on the distinction, 😉

  79. Saudian…

    Can we have a do-over election?

  80. Apparently, he was just going to offer the King a salute, but he realized he didn’t speak Saudian…

    LOL, just lik he does not speak Austrian?

  81. Even a salute would not have bothered me as much…if at all.

    Handshakes – sign of trust.
    Salutes – sign of respect from chivalrous days
    Scraping bow – humiliating gesture of servility.

  82. Joez law strikes again.

  83. When you’re president, every meeting in public should be considered an official setting. Even if you are devoutly catholic, you are representing those whose views aren’t and your action should be reflected thus in the public sphere.

    So a Catholic president couldn’t kneel before the Eucharist at a publicly viewable Mass, because he’s misrepresenting all the non-Catholics in the country by doing so? Puh-leeze. If everything the President does in public reflects on me, I’m way more concerned about the fact that he’s lying and spouting economic idiocy on national TV than this.

    I should add the disclaimer that I think this was a seriously stupid thing for him to do, but it’s not as big a deal as people are making it out to be.

  84. Nick — It’s about time H&R mentioned this. Power Line scooped you by a week.

  85. crimethink – that’s terribly rational of you, but let me ask you which one would outrage you more:

    1. The massive bailouts/TARP/economic policy OR
    2. The President stomps on the American Flag on national television.

    Like it or lump it, symbols mean a lot to people. Being Catholic, I thought you would know that.

  86. where was the outrage when Bush kissed the king, or when the bush family is in buisness with the saudi royal family? and since when is being head of the harvard review and having a phd from harvard law being uneducated????????? you people make me laugh, how about have some half way intelligent ways to criticize the president…..

  87. where was the outrage when Bush kissed the king, or when the bush family is in buisness with the saudi royal family?

    Right here at Hit & Run, is where the outrage is.

    Sit down and shut up, chumly. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

  88. where was the outrage when Bush kissed the king, or when the bush family is in buisness with the saudi royal family?

    Um…everywhere?

    I think it was all I heard about the last 8 years.

    Also, AFAICT, all law schools uneducate people.

  89. I think your accountant would have advised you to use the phrase “avoided taxes”, not “evaded”. The IRS is very clear on the distinction, 😉

    Just tell them you were applying for a Cabinet position, they’ll let you off…

  90. TAO,

    Oh yeah, that picture made my blood boil when I saw it. But when you take a step back and cool off, you see it’s not really significant.

  91. So a Catholic president couldn’t kneel before the Eucharist at a publicly viewable Mass, because he’s misrepresenting all the non-Catholics in the country by doing so?

    Straw man alert, straw man alert!!!

    When the president is in church, performing the ceremonies of the church, this is generally regarded as a private setting and taking of the eucharist is not a subservient gesture to a living person.

  92. This makes sense in light of what Obama is trying to do concerning America’s relationship with the Islamic world. I don’t understand how anyone is shocked.

    Also, in general, I try not to care too much about symbols and gestures: flags, bows, official gifts, etc. It upsets me that the moron bowed to a king, but no more than I’m already upset that he’s my president.

    I’d rather talk about the Patriot Act, honestly, and the Obama administration’s really scary new privacy policy.

  93. “The President stomps on the American Flag on national television.”

    Depends on the point he was making…

  94. yeah, even I, as an atheist, would probably follow protocol in Church. I’ve done it before, because it’s not worth the argument.

  95. To everybody who thinks to educate me on the tradition of bowing, as I’m actually living in Japan, umm… you’re wrong, mostly.

    Bowing, like many things, depends on context. Types of bows and occasions of bows, yes, still even in Japan have a lot dependence on rank, position, authority, etc. It’s not “just like” a handshake.

    Hell, a handshake, isn’t even “just like” a handshake, as both the handshake and the military salute for that matter, were meant to show your weren’t armed. Again, in context, a bow, salute or handshake to a “superior” or person of equivalent rank can have all sorts of meaning.

    The Obama bow didn’t make us all subservient to the monarch of another country… I didn’t wake up having to pray 5x a day or live sharia [doubly hard in Japan.] Grow up, ffs.

    That being said, it looked to me that he was doing it on the fly, and blew whatever the proper protocol should have been. Doesn’t merit all this hand wringing and gnashing of teeth though, imho.

  96. Again, in context, a bow, salute or handshake to a “superior” or person of equivalent rank can have all sorts of meaning

    In what “context” is a handshake a sign of deference to a higher rank?

    you’re just making shit up using weasel words. There is one meaning to a handshake, not “all sorts of meaning in context”.

  97. No way. Bowing is not something he’s used to doing. It’s not a major gaffe, but it’s a gaffe nonetheless, and it’s all the more telling in that it must have been a planned move. He’s not the brightest bulb on the planet, but his advisers are looking pretty dim across the board.

    Now, if he’d slugged the king, well, that would’ve been fun to watch.

  98. Also, in general, I try not to care too much about symbols and gestures: flags, bows, official gifts, etc. It upsets me that the moron bowed to a king, but no more than I’m already upset that he’s my president.

    I’m sure we’ll soon settle into a constant state of simmering bitterness that we reached in Bush’s term. The American people are just damn good at picking idiots to lead them (after all, he made people feel good about themselves, heeyuck).

    Hopey McChangealot may eventually figure out wtf he’s supposed to do, but for now he continues to compound the perceived inadequacies his critics accused him of and that just makes us roll our eyes even more.

  99. Now, if he’d slugged the king, well, that would’ve been fun to watch.

    I think any rational international protocol would call for Obama to deliver a junk punch.

  100. Wel,, so far Obama has avoided any major fuckups, but he’s seriously off to a rocking good start on the minor ones.

  101. The Obama bow didn’t make us all subservient to the monarch of another country…

    No, whichever asshole decided it would be a good idea to get a large portion of our energy supply from Saudi Arabia made us subservient.

    Obama’s just going through the motions.

    Now, on my outrage scale, this only ranks about 1.5 of 10, but until something better comes up to discuss, I’m going to pile on this moran!

  102. Nah, the best would have been if he took his hand midbow, then broke it. On his way to one handedly lifting him at the waist and throwing him in to a deep crevace.

    He’s supposed to be Superman after all, right?

  103. He’s supposed to be Superman after all, right?

    Oh, god. There’s a giant mural of him as Superman hanging in the window just across the street from a coffee place I frequent on the lower east side. I have to stare it on a semi-regular basis.

  104. He’s getting paid to know foreign protocol and project strength.

    Kennedy looking weak to Khrushchev was one of the catalysts for the Cuban Missile Crisis. We don’t have to bomb the shit out of everyone, but we do have to act like we can and not like the cell block bitch.

    You don’t hug the fucking Queen of England and of course she responded gracefully. She’s the fucking Queen of England she would never make a guest feel uneasy about a mistake, it’s called etiquette. Just add Big O and the wife to the large list of Americans that go overseas and make the country look like uneducated McDonalds chomping retards.

  105. Pendant Preemption: Sorry, meteorite. I’m not in space yet…

    You are all wrong. A meteor is the thing that you see burning up in the atmosphere. A meteorite is what’s left when it hits the ground. In space it is called an asteroid.

  106. hillarious, some of these comments.
    i mean, really.

    obama bowed to the king. conclusion to a liberal? it means bush is an idiot. how can any one person/or persons on this site be so *******?

  107. Oh, and the Michelle and Mrs Mountbatten-Windsor thing isn’t just about some deference to the Queen of England.

    It’s also partly about the fact that the Brits (as well as many other people around the globe) really don’t like this American chumminess with people who were, until you met them a few seconds ago, total strangers.

    Just as I though that Sara Palin not knowing what an Achilles heel was displayed a level of ignorance that I don’t think suits someone seeking high office I find the Obamas apparent cultural ignorance likewise disquieting.

    Not a huge deal, but a deal nonetheless.

  108. You err, Zebulon. It’s called a meteoroid.

  109. We’re handing out Ph.Ds now?

  110. I see no reason why a monarch should be treated any differently (by the President especially) than any elected head of state. Or any tin-pot dictator for that matter.

  111. Just add Big O and the wife to the large list of Americans that go overseas and make the country look like uneducated McDonalds chomping retards.

    Oh spare me your Euro-fellatio. Middle Easterners come over here and want to do “female circumcision”. Britain exports its soccer yobs over here.

    I hate ignorant faux-elitists. There have been McDonald’s in Western Europe since the 1970s; they’re just as popular, if not more, there.

  112. I don’t know where your came from, yo (if that is indeed your name) but the “Bush is an idiot” was a response to someone saying that Bush bowed to the pope.

    And the only liberal here is MNG and he gets pretty merciless ragging most of the time.

    For what it’s worth, I think there’s a pretty big cohort that thinks all presidents are idiots. I know I do, but I should let the rest speak for themselves.

  113. It’s called a meteoroid.

    How silly of me. I guess asteroids are bigger. And how do you know my name?

  114. “Raaaaaaaacist!”

  115. make the country look like uneducated McDonalds chomping retards

    I always knew the Highlanders were a bunch of cannibals!

  116. I agree with Issac in that most presidents are idiots, with the exceptions of Jefferson, Garfield and Wilson (the latter I fucking hate, but don’t think for one second he was an idiot).

    There’s only one person in the world that the President should be bowing to: Chuck Norris

  117. I guess asteroids are bigger.

    Sizeist. Fatophobe. Why don’t you educate yourself before any further embarrassment.

  118. If I ran for President, I would make sure to publish a theoretical budget, showing everything I would cut, and being up front about it instead of either lying or pussying out like just about everyone in the GOP.

    And one of the things that would be cut the most severely would be the “protocol” budget for the White House, and its “special event” budget.

    I would boot most of the entourage out of the White House onto its ass like they were the Emperor Julian’s eunuchs.

    There is absolutely no need to have the President meeting Boy Scouts for photo ops for National Trees Are Nice Day or whatever, and there is no reason for these foreign tours. We have a Secretary of State for a reason. Just about all Presidential “events” are campaign events in disguise, and the fixation on them of post-Kennedy administrations and the national press has helped as much as anything else to trivialize our politics and create a “permanent campaign” atmosphere.

    So if I was President, it wouldn’t really matter if I knew whether to hug the Queen of England or not or how one greets the King of Saudi Arabia, because I would never meet them in a context where a camera was present. If I did have to meet a foreign head of state, I would do it Reyjavik-style and there would be absolutely no photo ops, period.

  119. The loony right has all of a sudden become manners mavens. Can someone please dangle a shiny object so they’ll get distracted from their paranoia for a while?

    As everyone knows the correct protocol for meeting a foreign head of state is to sneak up behind them and start massaging their shoulders. Only someone with the breeding of George W. Bush is aware of this.

  120. TAO

    You are, of course, quite correct that Americans hold no monopoly on cultural ignorance (or ignorance in general), my that cultural ignorance is a poor trait to be displayed by those those holding prominent positions.

    Actually we had a H&R thread where this attitude of American exceptionalism in the realm of ignorance was discussed. The conclusion seemed to be that this form of exceptionalism is no more valid than the other.

  121. Tony, as usual, demonstrates his inadequate reading comprehension skills by confusing us with Bush supporters.

    Get a fucking clue, Tony, if Bush were doing these things, your ilk would be all over them. But since it’s your god-king it’s all OK.

  122. Fluffy, that (the bit about public appearances) is exactly what I was thinking around the time of the inauguration. Public events with the President are just a big waste of money and the security needed is an unreasonable imposition on the people who live where the events take place.

  123. Tony,

    Bush isn’t president. We criticized him when he was. Now it’s your idiot’s turn.

    Zeb,

    I used to work with a Zebulon. Or was it Zebuloid?

    The idea of the ugly American has more to do with the number of people we have going overseas as tourists and our preeminent position in the world than it has to do with our particular crassness. Europeans can be just as bad here as we are there. And both are embarrassing in Asia.

  124. Someone brings up the cult of personality upthread and Tony arrive to confirm it.

  125. Fluffy/Zebulon,

    Actually, I agree. Lots of time and resources wasted on photo ops. I thought about this issue more narrowly when I drafted my Top 100 Things I’d Do if I Ever Became a Libertarian President:

    7. If there are any natural disasters on my watch, I will eschew the usual practice of flying to the affected area for photo ops. Instead, I’ll send a card and make a speech asking people to help out.

  126. Is it too late in the thread to say I couldn’t give a crap if Obama bows to a foreign leader? Or that I think this “outrage” is just as contrived as the outrage over any typical John Kerry gaffe from a couple years ago? I didn’t care when Bush was groping Merkel, and I don’t care about this or anything involving the freaking Queen of England. If there is some merit to the outrage, years of crying wolf have deadened the impact.

  127. TAO
    I don’t think the President is some collective personification of me and other Americans. Really.

    And I don’t give a shit about the American flag. I care about the laws and principles of this nation and it’s people.

    But I realize its important to some folks.

  128. Anybody who feels like “America” was humiliated by Obama bowing is being a bit goofy.

  129. Okay, here is my non-issues problem with Obama (the issue related problems are obvious):

    For a guy who has lived around the world and been educated all over, he is amazingly Chicagocentric. Based on some of the stuff he has said/done, if you had told me he was born/raised in Chicago, went to Northwestern and UofC for school and vacationed every summer in the Wisconsin Dells, I would believe you.

    I have lived in 3 US cities, Madison, Louisville and Atlanta. These 3 cities react differently to snow. 3 inches shuts down the city of Atlanta, shuts down schools in Louisville and isnt noticed in Madison. Why? Because of regularity of snow and equipment differences. Obama was surprised when DC cancelled schools due to snow. WTF? How do you not know that Chicago handles snow better than DC?

    Ditto the pronunciation of Orion thing. I understand his mistake based on some local Chicago semi-celebrity pronouncing his name differently. But, still, how do you not know the right way to say it?

    There have been other examples. Individually, none of them are a big deal. Together, they make him look like a tool.

  130. I think Camille nails it. This is just more amateur hour from our sophisticated President’s administration.

    Protocol matters. It is a form of communication. Botched protocol communicates incompetence. Botched obsequious protocol communicates weakness.

  131. 129 comments and I must commend MNG for not asking why we are talking about this instead of a bunch of crazed, savage Egyptians destroying their brand new country.

    BRAVO!

  132. “I didn’t care when Bush was groping Merkel”

    Neither was I.

    It’s funny that on another thread yesterday everyone was bemoaning how bleached, boring and scripted our political leaders are.

    This is why. People watching them 24 hours a day and going “Oh my God he bowed to the King of Saudia Arabia, that’s like surrending to the guy, it’s like he made me bend my knee to Hitler etc, etc”

  133. Oh high, you’re so cute!

  134. It is also a sign of weakness that President Obama failed to piss on the King’s mailbox.

  135. I would have preferred to see Obama remain perpendicular, while giving the King a hearty handshake, covering the Kingly right hand with the Presidential left hand. Then he could prop his feet up on the table while sitting across from the regal Monarch.

  136. Clearly, a new rule to the drinking game should be established: the “You didn’t rag on Bush!!!1!!1!” bullshit.

    I swear, most American have their minds chemically erased the night before inaguration day…

  137. At least he didn’t fist him
    (cue Epi)

  138. Anybody who feels like “America” was humiliated by Obama bowing is being a bit goofy.

    Call it what you will, there are still a few of us that are proud enough of our country that this is humiliating. Despite the fact that our country isn’t currently making us proud.

  139. (sobs) I’ll never be able to walk past someone from Saudia Arabia again without hanging my head in shame

  140. Nice try domo. I’m proud of my country too. But I don’t think my country is humiliated by what Obama did.

    But nice “you’re not patriotic” move

  141. Tony, as usual, demonstrates his inadequate reading comprehension skills by confusing us with Bush supporters.

    I said nothing of the kind. Chill.

    Get a fucking clue, Tony, if Bush were doing these things, your ilk would be all over them. But since it’s your god-king it’s all OK.

    I didn’t say it was OK. As in everything Miss Manners dictates correctness, and according to her, it is not correct for an American to bow to a monarch. I was just making a joke.

    You guys don’t get out much do you?

  142. “collective personification” and “representative are two different things. No, the man does not represent me as an individual.

    The Office of the President represents our nation. And as such, the holder of said Office is beholden to no one but the nation’s citizens.

    The Office of the President stands (at least) as equal to any other head of state and it is therefore inappropriate for the holder of said Office to bow – a subservient gesture by definition.

    Sure, some people (myself included) find symbolism to often be excessive, but in executing the duties of office, this sort of symbolism becomes important.

  143. MNG, no one said they’d hang their head in shame before a Saudi. Please… spare the hyperbole.

  144. “Call it what you will…..”

    I think “contrived” is the word I used. People who would have merely rolled their eyes at the worst Bush gaffe will now pretend like Obama’s actions are destroying the country.

  145. Also, I’d like to add that I will be equally pissed if I hear any right-wing radio slugs harping on this incident.

    After fingering Bush’s ass for 8 years when he was cowtowing to the Saudis, they haven’t the right to say anything…

  146. People who would have merely rolled their eyes at the worst Bush gaffe will now pretend like Obama’s actions are destroying the country.

    See?

    Drink!

  147. Yeah, I’m not sure who these “People” are, but I don’t see any of ’em around here.

  148. Taktix,

    After fingering Bush’s ass for 8 years when he was cowtowing to the Saudis, they haven’t the right to say anything…

    You sure don’t listen to much ‘right-wing’ radio, do ya?

  149. Yeah, I’m not sure who these “People” are, but I don’t see any of ’em around here.

    Who are these people?

  150. Taktix,

    It is not about Obama cowtowing to the Saudis. It is about him being ignorant and not knowing how to do his job. BO’s sychpants sold him as some kind of genius philospher king. What this incident and others like the “how do you say it in Austrian” incident and his dragging a teleprompter around to every occasion, just show him to be a poorly educated, empty suit. The guy is not very bright and it needs to be pointed out at every opportunity.

  151. It is about him being ignorant and not knowing how to do his job.

    QFT

  152. I’d become a socialist and join the Obama administration if he’d grabbed the king’s hand, crushed it in his grip, and said, “Kneel before Zod.”

  153. Also, I have to say it… it’s ‘kowtow’

  154. If highlighting disingenuous political hackery is a drinkable offense, then so be it.

  155. For fukksakes, people. That this registers as some kind of outrage here shows we have a mass case of Obama Derangement Syndrome.

  156. Outrage? I have no outrage. I’m just noting that it was an inappropriate move. If Bush was inept, well, so is Obama. Any reasonable person should’ve realized that when considering that we’ve elected someone with virtually no relevant experience.

  157. That this registers as some kind of outrage here shows we have a mass case of Obama Derangement Syndrome.

    My god, one decides to comment on a humorous thread, and all of the sudden we’re all nutjobs.

    Fine, no more humor. From now on, everyone has to be absolutely serious in their comments…

  158. I need to find a way to harness all of the impotent rage here and use it to power something. This place is a potential goldmine!

  159. “Outrage? I have no outrage. I’m just noting that it was an inappropriate move. If Bush was inept, well, so is Obama. Any reasonable person should’ve realized that when considering that we’ve elected someone with virtually no relevant experience.”

    Exactly. Pointing out BO’s scewups is not being outraged or suffering from some derrangement syndrome.

  160. He was just tryin to look up his dress.

  161. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Private_of_the_Buffs

  162. This is hilarious. I first I assumed this was sarcasm – but no, people are really claiming to be offended that Obama bowed to the Saudi King, and THEN claiming he doesn’t understand protocol. And that Obama is dumb and uneducated. OK. Calm down, we’ll bring you your meds shortly. The Clinton haters were stupid, the Bush haters deranged, but the Obama haters have broken their last thin links to reality. Really. Calm down and think about what you’re saying and how little sense it really makes. Unless you’re just left wing trolls trying to make the right look stupid – then you’re doing a fine job.

  163. That this registers as some kind of outrage here shows we have a mass case of Obama Derangement Syndrome.

    Whaddaya mean “we”?

    I am a self-dignosed log term sufferer of “Politician Derangement Syndrome”. I hated Booosh, I hate the Presidential Suit, and I firmly intend to hate whomever the system pukes up next.

  164. stupid keyboard

  165. Exactly. Pointing out BO’s scewups is not being outraged or suffering from some derrangement syndrome.

    Absolutely. This was a protocol error and Obama should definitely be brought to account for it.

    But don’t you think that the people talking about how they feel “humiliated” by this have gone off the deep end a little? Talk about your ego identification issues.

    Personally, Obama could have given the guy head right there live for the cameras and I would not have felt humiliated in the least.

    The Abu Ghraib guards humiliated the country. The country was humiliated at My Lai. An error in protocol does not have the kind of substance required to “humiliate” the country.

  166. Oh, please. Inappropriate and unartful are perfectly fine descriptions of this minor event. It’s annoying, that’s all. Acting like it’s totally nothing is also annoying.

    And it’s another small indicator in a growing list of not-so-small indicators that Obama isn’t ready for prime time. It approaches irrational to suggest otherwise.

  167. Fluffy,

    If Palin were president, people would pay good money to see her do that. In fact, our popularity would have soared. Sigh. If only the Porn President were a reality.

  168. Who said they were humiliated? I must have missed that one.

  169. Absolutely. This was a protocol error and Obama should definitely be brought to account for it.

    Yes, it is unfortunate. If only they made some sort of droid to assist with protocol…

  170. There is only black and white. There is no gray.

  171. vanya,

    Unless you’re just left wing trolls trying to make the right look stupid – then you’re doing a fine job.

    Considering the people commenting arent right wingers (except John, I guess), I dont know how we could make the right look stupid. Personally, I dont think I have to do anything to make that happen.

    THEN claiming he doesn’t understand protocol.

    Are you claiming he does understand protocol? Because, really, that is obviously not true.

    that Obama is dumb and uneducated.

    Austrian.
    Orion.
    Not understanding DVD region encoding.
    Snowfall handling in DC v Chicago.
    Picking Illinois over WKU.

    Really, the list goes on and on.

  172. A protocol robot would be a good idea, showing America’s commitment to protocol and its technological preeminence.

    Here’s a candidate for the job. very civil.

  173. Pendant Preemption: Sorry, meteorite. I’m not in space yet…

    Yes, because that was the worst error in your prior comment.

    Can someone explain to me when libertarians started caring about proper protocol? Is there a libertarian guide to international etiquette policy memo that I missed out on?

    It’s getting very difficult to take you people seriously…

  174. I didn’t realize that libertarianism was a whole-life philosophy, Xanthippas. Libertarianism is a political philosophy.

    It’s hard to take you seriously when you fail to understand the basics.

  175. I love all the stupid cunts like MNG who defend Obama. They have swallowed so much Obama jizz that it’s coming out their ears.

    He can’t pronounce ‘orion’.
    He thinks Austrians speak ‘Austrian’.
    He bows before the Saudis.

    The guy is a fucking complete dipshit. His Harvard pedigree has to do with the color of his skin not his complete lack of character and intelligence. There is a reason he hasn’t released his educational records.

  176. You know what? If Obama were a good president, maybe people wouldn’t harp on his constant missteps and failings. But, like Bush, it’s hard to see anything but his ineptitude.

    Note that libertarians have consistently attacked these jokers, left or right, and would love to pare down their duties to something they’re more able to handle.

  177. If I was the President, I wouldn’t bow to the King of Saudi Arabia.

    I don’t think a protocol guy was needed for that. I think it’s basic.

  178. I just saw a book on Obama at the book store. A very flattering image of him and his wife. It bespoke of the hope and change most of America voted for.

    All I could see looking at the cover was the short clip of him bowing to a Saudi King. Some of us do think this is important. I am embarrassed as an American. I shudder as I think of the Saudi population smirking at the images and symbolism.

  179. Where is C-3PO when you need him?

  180. He probably went to find ole Ben.

  181. Ummm…birth certifigate, secret muslim, not a natural-born citizen, affirmative action president. These are Obama Derangement Syndrome. Hell I’ll even go a far as including the Rev Wright. And I defended him on all of those.

    But, sorry, when the preznit we’ve been sold on as being ever so smart and ever so intellectual and ever so cool and ever so wordly wise commits gaffe after gaffe displaying Palin-level parochialism, provincialism and insularity…yes…dammit I won’t just roll my eyes, I’ll jab and poke fun for all it’s worth.

    Especially after he’s displayed levels of executive ineptness that make Sara Palin look like a freaking genius.

    So there!

  182. If anyone cares, I read more about the “gynoid” I linked to above, and was disturbed enough to post more on it at Urkobold. We’re truly a weird species.

  183. Talk about pure comedy gold!

    Libertarians, equal opportunity idiots. They make fools of themselves tossing their faux outrage at the left and the right!

  184. “Especially after he’s displayed levels of executive ineptness that make Sara Palin look like a freaking genius.”

    I will say it right now, Palin is smarter than Obama. I am not saying that because I think Palin is William F. Buckley. I just think Obama isn’t very bright. He has never done anything beyond make white people feel good about themselves, which I guess is something but not much.

  185. Wow, this is childish.

    I didn’t care when Bush bowed to the pope (a two-bit monarch), and I don’t care now when Obama bows to a different two-bit monarch.

    Neither acts presage a different policy orientation towards those respective entities, does it? No. Does everyone in the room know that? I’m willing to bet.

    It’s like giving the Queen of England a back hug. Protocol is just prissy people twisting the stick up their ass. Nobody except prisses actually care.

    And those people who actually think that by Obama bowing, he is bowing n behalf of all of us. ROFL! Where is your individual essentialism now, bitches?

  186. The guy is a fucking complete dipshit. His Harvard pedigree has to do with the color of his skin not his complete lack of character and intelligence. There is a reason he hasn’t released his educational records.

    But… but… but… he’s our First Black President!

    *genuflects and makes sign of the cross*

  187. MNG,

    Nice try domo. I’m proud of my country too. But I don’t think my country is humiliated by what Obama did.

    I do. However, in retrospect it was disingenuous of me to imply that someone who is not angry is therefore not patriotic. I retract.

  188. Another day, another GOP handjob quoted in Reason. What does this have to do with policy anyhow?

  189. His Harvard pedigree has to do with the color of his skin not his complete lack of character and intelligence. There is a reason he hasn’t released his educational records.

    Well, I’m certainly not opining about his character (I’m on record as regarding him as ethically inert, after all), but as an alumn I can tell you that there’s not much room for affirmative action once you’re admitted to HLS. Grading is on a no-name basis in all but (perhaps) a handful of classes. He graduated in the top 5% of a 550-person class of obsessive academic over-performers, and you simply cannot do that without earning it.

    He’s definitely book-smart.

  190. Because that what Muslims do.

  191. You guys are all wrong. Anyone can see he just dropped a contact lens.

    In the frame just before that one, he high-fived the king. The impact jarred the lens loose. Not as entertaining as barfing on the royal shoes, but definitely not a bow. A bow would have been bad.

    Contact lens.

  192. I won’t beat this deceased quadraped much longer, but can’t we atleast agree that this was a gaffe, regardless of the size. No one should be praising Obama’s actions in this case, regardless of to what level they critisize him for it.

    I’m annoyed that our president makes a fool out himself internationally, I’m pissed that he throws my money away and cowtows to the far left and I’m horrified at the level of slobbering adoration some on the left have for this man. Its as bad as LGF with Bush. This man is not your savior, probably not going to eb a good president and certainly not very polished as a statesman.

    I believe more and more every day that he’ll help finish the destruction of the economy that Bush II put into high gear. He’ll have the best of intentions and we’ll end up at the bottom of the barrel. And some people will be cheering us all the way down.

  193. Yesterday We Obeyed Kings And Bent Our Necks To Emperors. Today We Kneel Only To Truth

    Leave it to a liberal, the modern world’s true reactionaires, to take us back several hundred years.

  194. I agree with Mr. Dean. You’ve got something going for you if you graduate in the top 5% of law school, especially a highly competitive one like Harvard. But being a good student and being a good president–or even a good attorney–are not at all the same thing. He’s showing a surprising lack of aptitude for the job, and I had low expectations in the first place.

    The fact that he’s not all that different from Bush makes the left’s blind defense of him all the more laughable. Not ready for prime time, not interested in rolling back federal power, not aware of the importance of his actions, including the gaffes. For the record, names like Bush, Edwards, Palin, Obama, and Clinton shouldn’t be heard near the word president or even “serious presidential candidate.” But we’re bound and determined to vote for people with inexperience and little public record these days. More foolish are we.

  195. John,

    Let me see if I get this right:

    Hillary Clinton: Did not properly identify the obviously miraculous image on the tilma of Saint Juan Diego Cuauhtlatoatzin. Moron!

    Sarah Palin: Unfamiliar with the obviously esoteric expression “Achilles heel,” derived from a minor greek poet several thousand years dead. Minor gaffe in no way impinging on her intelligence.

  196. He’s showing a surprising lack of aptitude for the job, and I had low expectations in the first place.

    The job of president has gotten too big for one man. I’ve never met anyone that I think could handle it, and that includes all the posers and armchair statesmen in this thread.

  197. The fact that he’s not all that different from Bush

    Except for the 40 point difference in popularity and the fact that he’s cheered rather than burned in effigy whenever he goes to Europe.

  198. Does anyone in their right mind think that Clinton’s resume qualified her for the presidency, let alone Secretary of State? Understand, my objection isn’t just about experience, it’s about us knowing how these people will behave in public office.

    Honestly, it’s the blind partisan defense of the underqualified, stupid, evil, etc. when they’re part of “the team” that’s got us to this point. If your guy sucks, then admit it, call him out on it, don’t vote for him again. If the GOP voters and talking heads had turned on Bush and on the Republican Congress, we wouldn’t be taking this long walk towards socialism/non-capitalism/fascism/whatever-the-hell-it-is-ism.

    Tony,

    Uh, huh. If Europeans are happy with him, it’s probably because they think he’ll take America down a notch. Is that a good thing if you’re an American? While I value our alliances and close ties with the various European nations, I don’t care all that much whether they like the president or not, just so long as nothing happens to jeopardize our relationship. For all the rhetoric, Europe and the U.S. have gotten along fine, even during the dreaded Bush years. The alliance is much bigger than any one president.

  199. RC,

    Do we know that he finished in the to 5%? He never released his academic records. Has anyone seen is Summa Cum Laude degree? Just curious.

    You are right, it takes some book smarts to be in the top 5% of your law school class. But, so what? Other than make speeches, what has BO done after that? The real giant brains that come out of Harvard and places like that go on to be judicial clerks and tenured track profs. BO did none of that. BO was never much an accomplished lawyer. As a politician he has never come up with any inovative policies or written any serious books about policy. All he has ever written are a couple of biographies of himself. Hell, even JFK had a ghost writer do Profiles in Courage.

    By any metric, BO’s accomplishments and experience pale in comparison to every other President in recent memory. Bush and Clinton were both successful Governors. Bush I had been VP and head of the CIA. Reagan had been governor of California. Carter had been a governor. Ford had been a long time Senator. Nixon a former VP, Johnson former VP and long time Senator. Kennedy really is the only one that doesn’t blow BO out of the water. It is really pathetic that someone of his lowely qualifications could have gotten elected.

  200. Do we know that he finished in the to 5%? He never released his academic records. Has anyone seen is Summa Cum Laude degree? Just curious.

    And what about his birth certificate? We need to see that, too.

  201. Give it time, Tony.

  202. “Hillary Clinton: Did not properly identify the obviously miraculous image on the tilma of Saint Juan Diego Cuauhtlatoatzin. Moron!”

    Yes she is a fucking moron. Any idiot who has decent genral knowlege knows the deal with Our Lady of Guadalupe. Beyond that, if you represpent the US and are visiting a foreign country, you might want to know what your are visiting and what is important to them. It is like going to Prague and asking who made that doll of infant Jesus. Cultured, educated people know these things. Uneducated rubes don’t.

  203. “And what about his birth certificate? We need to see that, too.”

    Considering that his time at Harvard was his only stated qualification for the job, I would say it is kind of important.

  204. The obsession of conservatives with this trivial bs in pursuit of their efforts to portray the president as an incompetent would be risible if it didn’t have such serious consequences for the Republican party. This guy has approval ratings of 66% and is favored on most issues by two or three to one. Meanwhile we’re bloviating about bows and ipods. It’s totally clownish behavior such as I would have shouted at my kids for doing when they were 12. I’m a trad Republican but it’s totally obvious to me this guy is probably the greatest political talent in the fullest sense I’ve seen in my lifetime….and we’re talking about bows. Keep at it guys, just as long as you do this so he will continue to run rings around the GOP.

  205. What a sad spectacle — the author of “Sexual Personae” has become a generic Fox News blowhard.

  206. “Except for the 40 point difference in popularity and the fact that he’s cheered rather than burned in effigy whenever he goes to Europe.”

    That’s only because he is a Socialist who is forcibly submitting America to bow before the New World Liberal Fascist Order, which is exactly what the Europeans want.

  207. As Dick Morris said, with this trip BHO has repealed the Declaration of Independence.

  208. “This guy has approval ratings of 66% and is favored on most issues by two or three to one.”

    What the fuck does that have to do with anything? American Idol has a great approval rating but I won’t be watching it anytime soon. When you have to revert to poll numbers, you are just admitting that you can’t defend BO’s actions. BO is a moron. High approval ratings don’t change that.

    Oh and I am sure you were citing Bush’s sky high approval ratings in 2002 as evidence of what a great guy he was.

  209. Remember, John, you are not alone.

    WE surround THEM!

  210. Yes she is a fucking moron. Any idiot who has decent genral knowlege knows the deal with Our Lady of Guadalupe. Beyond that, if you represpent the US and are visiting a foreign country, you might want to know what your are visiting and what is important to them. It is like going to Prague and asking who made that doll of infant Jesus. Cultured, educated people know these things. Uneducated rubes don’t.


    O RLY?

  211. He’s definitely book-smart.

    What book?

    We’ve all heard him talk about a hell of a lot of things by now, and he’s never once shown any sign of knowing anything about any of them.

    He’s not smart. He’s Oddy Gaul.

  212. Let’s see . . . he shakes hands with the Queen of England, gives her an Ipod, his wife hugs her . . . and then he bows to the King of Saudi Arabia.

    Got it. Too bad the useful idiots don’t get it.

  213. “Let’s see . . . he shakes hands with the Queen of England, gives her an Ipod, his wife hugs her . . . and then he bows to the King of Saudi Arabia.”

    Exactly. Barack Hussein Obama bowing meekly before the Guardian of the Holy Mosques. Think about it!!

  214. Do we really need anymore proof for the obvious conclusion?

  215. That’s interesting, because I heard on NPR that Obama’s popularity remains high, but his policies do not poll well.

    I’m not interested in what’s popular or in vogue today. I’m interested in having limited government, liberty, and free markets. This president may be worse than his predecessor in achieving or preserving any one of those things. That takes some doing to out screw-up Bush. Plenty of time yet to see how it’ll all play out, of course.

  216. O RLY?

    Yes really. I am not even a Catholic and I knew the story. One small correction, the infant of prague was miraculously fixed not made. They know it came from Spain.

    Does your average beer drinking moron know that? No. But it is the kind of shit that people at the State Department are supposed to know. And it is definitely the kind of stuff that “errudite, educated” people that the Dems are always claiming their leaders to be ought to know.

  217. Sarah Palin: Unfamiliar with the obviously esoteric expression “Achilles heel,”…

    Actually that was me. And, sorry, “Achilles heel” is far from an esoteric expression.

    But perhaps I’m old-fashioned. There was a time when a basic knowledge of Greek mythology (and the Bible, even if you were not particularly religious) were considered the minimum if you wanted to claim you were an educated person.

    And I’ve been ragging on BO’s choice of SoS since the day he made it.

    In fact what Pro Libertate | April 8, 2009, 1:08pm said pretty much sums up my view from here entirely.

  218. BHO doesn’t know the Bible, but I bet there’s one Holy Book he knows REALLY well!

  219. Beyond that, if you represpent the US and are visiting a foreign country, you might want to know what your are visiting and what is important to them.

    And if you’re going to be a faceless internet policy hack, you can at least address my actual point, which was that you’re not exactly holding the moose-shooting soccer mom to the same high educational standards you seem to reserve for other politicians.

    Frankly, I’ve had it with this bullshit. All this thread does is make libertarians look like a bunch of wannabe ankle-biters. This is the kind of issue that seems like it would be a big deal on the front page of “Conservapedia.”

  220. Isaac Bartram, I think Tacos was being facetious regarding Palin and “Achilles Heel”.

    John,
    While I agree that the SoS should know this stuff, I’m certain you’re overstating your case when you say educated people should all know about the Virgin of Guadalupe.

  221. That’s only because he is a Socialist who is forcibly submitting America to bow before the New World Liberal Fascist Order, which is exactly what the Europeans want.

    Bush sanctioned torture and set up a procedure for implementing martial law in the U.S. and invaded a country illegally to protect us from people carrying box knives.

    I’m pretty sure Europeans, like American liberals, are just happy to be moving on from that. We’ll get to the grand conspiracy to oppress you later.

    That is if we can decide whether Obama is an ineffectual boob or an evil genius with a secret plan to remake the world. Care to help figure that out?

  222. :”Bush sanctioned torture and set up a procedure for implementing martial law in the U.S. and invaded a country illegally to protect us from people carrying box knives”

    He kept us safe after 9/11.

  223. Why have there been no attacks since 9/11 Tony?

    Thanks to Bush there are less terrorists in the world today, even if the MSM will never admit it.

  224. Isaac Bartram

  225. By my own rough estimate, roughly 80% of the posts in this thread are intellectually honest, worthwhile, while the other 20% seem (partisan) hack-a-rific. Just saying.

  226. Isaac Bartram

    If you are referring to the incident in the debate, I think Palin knew what the term meant, she just didn’t answer the question because she didn’t want to admit her flaws. I honestly don’t think she didn’t know what an Achilles Heel was. Further, having tried cases in court, I can assure you that when you are standing up and talking to people under pressure, things that you normally would know don’t always come to you at the time.

  227. Why have there been no attacks since 9/11 Tony?

    Thanks to Bush there are less terrorists in the world today, even if the MSM will never admit it.

    I’m sorry, I can’t respond to this nonsense otherwise I’ll get accused of comparing libertarians to right-wing Republicans, a big no-no here, even if they do get all their ideas from FOX news.

  228. Actually that was me. And, sorry, “Achilles heel” is far from an esoteric expression.

    But perhaps I’m old-fashioned. There was a time when a basic knowledge of Greek mythology (and the Bible, even if you were not particularly religious) were considered the minimum if you wanted to claim you were an educated person.

    I was being ironic. John seems to think that it’s a great cultural failing to be ignorant of Prague’s Jesus doll, but continues to talk up Sarah Palin as if she were fit for anything but Newt Gingrich’s masturbation fantasies.

    And I’ve been ragging on BO’s choice of SoS since the day he made it.

    As if that’s made a difference in the world.

  229. Further, having tried cases in court, I can assure you that when you are standing up and talking to people under pressure, things that you normally would know don’t always come to you at the time.

    Of course when BO says “Austrian” instead of “German”, it is proof that he is an Affirmative Action moron.

    But lay off Palin. She was just under pressure.

  230. Art-P.O.G.,

    People mess up. Even important people mess up. If the Democrats hadn’t talked so much shit about how much smarter they were than Republicans and what a genius BO was, this kind of stuff wouldn’t be as big of a deal. If you are going to talk about how brilliant you are and what a dope your predecessor was, you better be able to back it up. BO clearly hasn’t backed it up.

  231. Why have there been no attacks since 9/11 Tony? … I’m sorry, I can’t respond to this nonsense

    I’ll take a shot then, I think this Bush doctrine = no attacks idea is a classic confusion of correlation and causation error that we routinely accuse liberals of: here be dragons.

  232. Extraordinary rendition, which is where the worst stuff happens, began under Clinton. Continued through Bush, and still is practiced today.

    What’s changed?

    I’m not sure anyone here is pro-Palin, by the way. Frankly, a more intelligent voting population would’ve rejected Obama for the same reasons they should reject Palin–not up to the task. I thought he’d be killed for pointing out her inexperience, because it highlighted his own so much, but we’re not interested in logic and consequences any more.

    Tacos mmm…,

    Insulting people for posting opinions here while you’re. . .posting opinions here approaches a level of absurdity I haven’t seen here lately. Bravo!

  233. Lol, I’m enjoying “Jack’s” sockpuppetry. So much less abrasive than late “Neil”.

  234. “I’ll take a shot then, I think this Bush doctrine = no attacks idea is a classic confusion of correlation and causation error that we routinely accuse liberals of: here be dragons.”

    So you think we just got lucky then, domoarrigato?

    I think the more likely explination is that Bush’s GWOT policies made us safer.

  235. Extraordinary rendition, which is where the worst stuff happens, began under Clinton. Continued through Bush, and still is practiced today.

    But I thought we weren’t allowed to look at the past and were required only to judge Obama, no matter the circumstances and no matter whether he had anything to do with them?

  236. “Of course when BO says “Austrian” instead of “German”, it is proof that he is an Affirmative Action moron.”

    I never said Palin was brilliant. I only said she was smarter than BO, which is admittedly a pretty low bar. Further, the left spent the last 8 years pointing at just these kinds of gaffes from Bush as evidence of how stupid he was. About a million smug liberals sat around after the election and said how nice it was going to be to finally have a President who was well spoken in public. Well, it turns out BO is just as bad or maybe even worse than Bush was. Bush never used the teleprompter the way BO does. Bush never sounded quite so bad without a teleprompter.

  237. Reason has taken a hard right turn towards stupid recently.

    Sarah Palin is an ignorant redneck. Barack Obama was president of the Harvard Law Review and managed to get elected president of the United States despite being unknown just a couple years before. There we go. Solved that little mystery.

  238. “Bush never sounded quite so bad without a teleprompter.”

    Fool me once…shame on…..uh….you fool me once, can’t get fooled again!

  239. We ought to make the pie higher.

    Families is where our nations find hope, where wings take dream.

    I know how important it is for you to put food on your families.

  240. Yes she is a fucking moron. Any idiot who has decent genral knowlege knows the deal with Our Lady of Guadalupe. Beyond that, if you represpent the US and are visiting a foreign country, you might want to know what your are visiting and what is important to them. It is like going to Prague and asking who made that doll of infant Jesus. Cultured, educated people know these things. Uneducated rubes don’t.

    This is absurd, John.

    I’m pretty sure that I’m as well-read as anyone who posts at this site. I went to Catholic schools for years. I probably know the biographies of the majority of the saints who lived through about the year 900. And I have no idea what this story is about, sorry. If it has nothing to do with Roman, Byzantine, Carolingian, or Norman history, I could give a rat’s ass about some trivia story about a saint. Especially some fake ass New World saint. There’s nothing more boring than Latin American history.

  241. Our enemies never stop thinking about new ways to hurt our country, and neither do we.

  242. People mess up. Even important people mess up. If the Democrats hadn’t talked so much shit about how much smarter they were than Republicans and what a genius BO was, this kind of stuff wouldn’t be as big of a deal.

    “She [Sarah Palin] knows more about energy than probably anyone else in the United States of America.” -J. McCain

    Democrats don’t exactly have the monopoly on shit-talk.

  243. Why have there been no attacks since 9/11 Tony?

    Other than thousands of attacks on US assets and personnel in Iraq and Afghanistan, you mean.

    And other than the anthrax attacks. Oopsie, forgot about those.

  244. Jesus Christ Tony. The man is almost 50 years old. How long can he live on being president of law review? Harvard law review has a president every year. After you are 35 you can no longer point to college as evidence of your achievments.

    So what if he got elected President? George Bush got elected twice. So I guess you think he is a genius to?

    Look, BO and his supporters days of being able to call anyone an ignorant redneck ended the day BO opened his mouth without a telprompter. Palin may be an ignorant redneck, but I bet she knows they speak German in Austria and that American DVDS won’t play in Europe and she definitely has more class than to give the queen of England an IPOD as a diplomatic gift.

  245. So you think we just got lucky then, domoarrigato?

    I think terrorist attacks on US soil were rare before 9/11 and rare after. Very little to do with Bush. Bushes policies were big on spending, pork, invasions, and pointless cabinet level reorgs. It will take more than the 8 year lack of an attack (which only happen about once a decade anyway) to convince me his policies did anything. non-empirically, Why do you see their effectiveness as eminently likely?

  246. domoarrigato,

    I’ve wondered about the lack of domestic terrorist attacks since 2001. Why haven’t they occurred? I don’t think creating the DHS, enacting the USA Patriot Act, expanding wiretapping, or talking tough did it. What may have happened is that we scared al Qaeda and other terror groups by the scope and speed of our response. Rightly or wrongly, two nations’ governments were totally eliminated, with us occupying those nations in the years since then.

    I’m not saying that I liked or like the idea of invading Iraq or continuing to occupy Afghanistan, but I think we’re failing to appreciate how distressing our response was to certain people. From their point of view, we’ll kinda sorta tolerate terror attacks overseas, but we get nuke-the-moon crazy when attacked at home. Seriously, what would’ve happened if we’d been attacked again in 2004? Nothing good from the Muslim perspective, that’s for sure.

    Of course, I’m on record saying that I think we should stop meddling in Middle Eastern affairs, since we have little strategic interest in doing so. We do it to protect European oil (we get something like 18% of our oil from the region), but I say let them deal with that.

  247. John, I agree with your last point, and although this item is definitely worth pointing out, in many cases harping on quirks and minor gaffes (like Pres. Bush’s pronounciation of “nuclear”) grows tiresome. I know, nobody’s making me comment on the subject. Even when the criticisms are correct (in this case) it seems like some people harp on them just because it fits their (negative) schema. I’m no apologist for the last administration, but I saw the left do it a lot to Pres. Bush.

    Not trying to make everyone drink. Just saying.

  248. Apparently presidents get a pass on their first massive, unprecedented domestic terrorist attack.

  249. The Head of the Church of England (the Queen) “merits” only a handshake?

    But the Protector of the Two Holy Muslim Shrines gets a full TRADITIONAL bow and scrape (with or without the kiss on the hand – the video is not clear)?

    Funny thing is, the Saudi King has outlawed the bow and scrape (and the kiss on the hand) for his own subjects!

    In the best case, Obambi was drawing on his Koranic training without consulting protocol experts. In the worst, he is rendering fealty to a Muslim overloard.

    Either way, he is an embarrassment!

  250. The Queen actually requested an iPod, with video of her trip to Virginia in 2007 on it. Which is what she got.

  251. Fluffy,

    I think it is pretty upsurd to write off the history of an entire continent. Further, if they ever put your dumb ass in the position of secretary of state, I would expect you to know the places you were visiting and not to ask stupid questions. You may not give a rats ass about Russian history, but if you visited St. Petersburg, I would expect you to know that some guy named Peter built the place.

  252. Insulting people for posting opinions here while you’re. . .posting opinions here approaches a level of absurdity I haven’t seen here lately. Bravo!

    Yeah, I’m trolling this thread. In terms of actual substance, there’s very little to be had here.

  253. John,

    You’ve obviously never watched the president give a press conference and instead rely on Matt Drudge to do your parsing of information for you. He gives long, detailed responses to questions on a range of subjects that seems too wide for any one person. Whenever Governor Palin was allowed in front of a camera without a prepared speech she invariably made a complete fool of herself. Why am I even engaging in this ludicrous conversation?

  254. John, Tony, I’m so glad the two of you can gauge peoples’ intelligence off of entirely anecdotal evidence.

    That is all.

  255. “I’ve wondered about the lack of domestic terrorist attacks since 2001. Why haven’t they occurred?”

    My theory is that we destroyed Al Quada in AFghanistan in Iraq as a serious organized force. The only serious, organized force for terrorism out there is Iran. Iran I think could hurt us bad. They have been putting sleeper agents in here since the 70s. But Iran has not done that because they want to keep something over our heads. I think fear of domestic attacks is why Bush never bombed Iran’s nuclear facilities. That is my theory anyway.

  256. Isaac Bartram, I think Tacos was being facetious regarding Palin and “Achilles Heel”.

    Oh, You may be right. Sorry, tacos, old man. If that’s the case I’d better get the Sarcasmometer back to the shop for recallibration.

  257. Pro Lib,

    I think they want to fight. This idea that they thought we were weak and would roll over, is a different side to the American self hatred coin for me. I think they were ready to fight – and adopted the revolutionarys creed that says to win, all you need to do is not lose. I mean, the Palestinians KNOW the Israeli’s are going to smash the hell out of them, and they still make trouble – so how surprised could they possibly be?

  258. You may not give a rats ass about Russian history, but if you visited St. Petersburg, I would expect you to know that some guy named Peter built the place.

    Yeah, but that’s not exactly the standard you were using earlier. You seem to expect that one should know about the Icon of the Mother of God of Smolensk.

  259. Tony,

    I have watched his press conferences. The media never asks him tough questions and never get to ask follow ups. It is a giant softball fest and the bastard still needs a teleprompter. Say what you want about Bush. He never needed a telprompter to give a press conference and he faced a much more hostile media when he did. BO wouldn’t last five minutes if the media treated him they way they did Bush.

    Just admit it, BO is a fuck up and a disapointment. Republicans had to admit that about Bush. Why can’t Dems do the same with BO? Why is it so hard for some people to turn on politicians.

  260. Reason has taken a hard right turn towards stupid recently.

    Whoa! Next round’s on you, Tony.

  261. Oh, You may be right. Sorry, tacos, old man. If that’s the case I’d better get the Sarcasmometer back to the shop for recallibration.

    Think nothing of it. I’m being an ass right now.

  262. I was so good at press conferences, I planted a fake “reporter” to ask me questions!

  263. “Yeah, but that’s not exactly the standard you were using earlier. You seem to expect that one should know about the Icon of the Mother of God of Smolensk.”

    If you were given a state tour of the Church of the Icon of the Mother of God of Smolensk, yeah, I would expect you to know that the thing is thought to be miraculous.

  264. It’s just a theory and one that goes against my own predilections. Still, it makes some sense. We have a truly frightening military capability, and the demonstration of that twice had to give al Qaeda (and others) food for thought.

    I think it’s valid to point out that 9/11 was a rare incident, as well. Our borders aren’t remotely secure, so our vulnerability is about the same as it was up to 9/11. Why didn’t they attack before? Even taking into account the previous failed attempts? I don’t have a good answer to that question. The Cold War may have shielded us somewhat.

  265. Pro,

    They did attack us. WTC in 1993 was a pretty bold and deadly attack. They also hit us all over the world numerous times. They hit us overseas because it was easier. They havne’t attacked us since I think because we policed up a lot of their operatives in the wake of 9-11 and made it a lot harder to get in the country. That combined with taking away their safe havens in Afghanistan, locking up many of their leaders, and baiting them into sending 1000s of dedicated operatives into Iraq, kept them from striking us again. It was a combination of things I think.

  266. Yes, thank God we took out Saddam Hussein so he could no longer support Al Qaeda in Iraq.

  267. Repeatedly calling someone a moron while your own rantings are riddled with spelling and grammatical errors…

  268. Clinton should have invaded Iraq back in 1993 after the first attack.


  269. I’m not sure anyone here is pro-Palin, by the way. Frankly, a more intelligent voting population would’ve rejected Obama for the same reasons they should reject Palin–not up to the task.

    I am. Sort of. Between a konstituional skowler that doesn’t believe in half the Bill of Rights and one that at least agrees with some of the more endangered and less popular ones, (2nd, 6th, 10th) I’ll take the dope on the right. But at most, I was considering voting for Palin for VP. We should be comparing her to Biden. Suddenly she doesn’t look so dumb.

  270. I meant domestic attacks. Obviously, plenty of attacks have happened before and since 9/11.

    I’m not advocating that the invasion of Iraq was the right thing to do; I’m just wondering whether it had the indirect effect (compounded with the invasion of Afghanistan) of freaking out the opposition. Even Reagan didn’t invade the Middle East after a couple of hundred Marines got blown up, so the idea that attacks overseas might be tolerated but attacks on our soil would not be could be surmised.

    Incidentally, I don’t think Iraq had anything at all to do with 9/11.

  271. “”Yeah, but that’s not exactly the standard you were using earlier. You seem to expect that one should know about the Icon of the Mother of God of Smolensk.”

    If you were given a state tour of the Church of the Icon of the Mother of God of Smolensk, yeah, I would expect you to know that the thing is thought to be miraculous.

    I think this raises a good point. To me it’s not so important that someone actually knows something it’s that noone in the management structure at BHO Inc seems to understand when people need to be coached and about what.

    Appearances are everthing. Symbols matter.

    People were right when they complained that having a nitwit like Bush for prez made the US of A look bad. And this isn’t about someone disagreeing with his policies or even his popularity but the fact that he came off like an ignorant yahoo.

    Well, sorry, but Barry’s looking like a nitwit too. And HRC’s looking like a yahoo.

    Bo’s superstar image is going to fade soon and people other than us are going to start judging him in the cold light of reality.

    The question is, will he survive real scrutiny?

  272. I hope to Allah that someone told Obama not to shake with his left hand, even if he has something in the other.

  273. If the goal of the 9/11 attacks was to goad the US into committing ground troops to the Middle East and Central Asia, where they could be attrited, to the detriment of the US militarily, financially, diplomatically, and morally, in order to attempt a repeat of the damage inflicted on the USSR by Islamists in Afghanistan, then the reason there were no attacks after 9/11 is because Al Qaeda had already accomplished its strategic goal.

  274. “If the goal of the 9/11 attacks was to goad the US into committing ground troops to the Middle East and Central Asia, where they could be attrited, to the detriment of the US militarily, financially, diplomatically, and morally, in order to attempt a repeat of the damage inflicted on the USSR by Islamists in Afghanistan, then the reason there were no attacks after 9/11 is because Al Qaeda had already accomplished its strategic goal.”

    That wasn’t it’s strategic goal.

    Al Qaeda thought we were weak-willed pussy faggots. They thought if they’d attack us, we’d just leave the Middle East. Well, we didn’t, because we had a strong clear-eyed realist in George W. Bush to bring the fight to them.

  275. “Incidentally, I don’t think Iraq had anything at all to do with 9/11.”

    Pro, I was talking about after the invastion. Al Quada got sucked into the insurgency in Iraq and sent a lot of people there to die who could have been causing mischief other places. It is a bit ironic that Iraq was supposed to be a quagmire for the US but history may look back on it being one for Al Quada.

    I still think Iran is the enemy lying in the weeds. I think that is why Bush didn’t bomb their nuke facilities. Bush did not want to have another attack on US soil and believed Iran could pull it off if attacked. It is just a hunch on my part I will admit.

    Yes for all of the bluster, I would imagine that us invading two countries in the middle east and putting local bad boy Saddam at the end of a rope gave them some pause.

  276. Fluffy,

    There may be something to that. I tend to think al Qaeda was shocked by our response, but maybe not.

  277. “If the goal of the 9/11 attacks was to goad the US into committing ground troops to the Middle East and Central Asia, where they could be attrited, to the detriment of the US militarily, financially, diplomatically, and morally, in order to attempt a repeat of the damage inflicted on the USSR by Islamists in Afghanistan, then the reason there were no attacks after 9/11 is because Al Qaeda had already accomplished its strategic goal.”

    First you assume our enemies cannot be attrited and just like to die. We will never know but if ODL had known that the US was going to invade Aghanistan and Iraq over 9-11, I doubt he would have approved the operations. No one was more shocked than they were at our reaction. Go back and look at what OBL was saying in the 1990s. He talked about the strong horse and the weak horse and how the US would always run away if you fought them like we did in Somalia. The idea was that if they killed enough Americans, the US would stop meddling in the middle east. OBL’s beef is with the Saudi Royal family as much as it is with us. He just hit us in hopes that we would stop supporting them.

  278. I think it is pretty upsurd to write off the history of an entire continent. Further, if they ever put your dumb ass in the position of secretary of state, I would expect you to know the places you were visiting and not to ask stupid questions. You may not give a rats ass about Russian history, but if you visited St. Petersburg, I would expect you to know that some guy named Peter built the place.

    That wasn’t what I was arguing with. I took issue with your claim that any well-educated person would know about Our Lady of Guadelupe. Most highly-educated people I know have a decided Eurocentric bias to their knowledge of history and literature, and I wouldn’t really expect them to know anything about Mexican history after the conquistadores and before Santa Ana. Considering the fact that even most educated Americans would not know really obvious facts about Mexican history [the fact that it had a period when it was ruled by a European-born Emperor, for example, would be met by most Americans with a blank stare] I really would not expect them to know the details about every backalley chapel and its Indianized Madonna.

    Maybe it’s a generational thing. I studied history before the multiculturalists got their paws on it.

  279. “The idea was that if they killed enough Americans, the US would stop meddling in the middle east. OBL’s beef is with the Saudi Royal family as much as it is with us. He just hit us in hopes that we would stop supporting them.”

    Which is why it was so outrageous for BHO to bow before the Saudi King! It’s something Al Qaeda would love.

  280. “I really would not expect them to know the details about every backalley chapel and its Indianized Madonna.”

    It is not some back alley chapel. It is the shrine of Mexico. Further, I would bet I know as much about the Normans and Rome and the Byzantines as you do. Maybe I just know too much stuff for my own good. But I knew what it was and thought Hillary was a buffoon for asking the question.

  281. I heard Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg is looking for a job – perhaps she could tutor the Obama’s in etiquette and protocol. Her mother clearly had class, and I have no doubt that Caroline was well educated in proper behavior.

  282. I try to be careful of attributing too much in the way of rational policy goals to Al-Queda.

  283. First you assume our enemies cannot be attrited and just like to die.

    A first year West Point cadet knows that the advantage of the non-state actor in asymmetric warfare is his lower costs.

    That’s the one reason the guerilla has a chance to win, John. I’m sure you know this and are pretending not to know it because you just can’t get the taste of W’s cock out of your mouth yet.

    We will never know but if ODL had known that the US was going to invade Aghanistan and Iraq over 9-11, I doubt he would have approved the operations. No one was more shocked than they were at our reaction.

    Since we imposed vastly greater costs on ourselves than we did on them, their shock would have been the “shock” of someone who wins the lottery.

    Go back and look at what OBL was saying in the 1990s. He talked about the strong horse and the weak horse and how the US would always run away if you fought them like we did in Somalia.

    bin Laden’s public statements that the US was afraid to fight are also easily read as part of his overall campaign of provocation. If you want your enemy to leave a position of strategic advantage and offer battle, one way to get him to do so is to taunt him with claims of cowardice.

    Your interpretation of events requires us to believe that a student of the Algerian and Afghani insurgencies would engage in a campaign of escalating provocation, but then be surprised when he got a response. It also requires us to believe that Al Qaeda got the US to bankrupt itself, damage itself diplomatically, and weaken its overall strategic position in myriad ways, by just plain dumb luck and the law of unintended consequences. It’s possible, but it doesn’t seem likely.

  284. domoarrigato,

    Me, too. I’ve been irked time and time again by the media and the Bush administration giving waaay too much credit to al Qaeda. We’re an open society and ipso facto easy to hit. The fact that they were able to do so never made them particularly efficient or effective, though they’ve been treated like some sort of terrorist Freemasons.

  285. Fluffy,

    That’s another valid line of reasoning, that al Qaeda attacked us to generate a response that would unify the Middle East. I personally don’t think they expected our dual invasions, but it’s possible that they wanted that type of result to unify Muslims in the Middle East. Didn’t really work, of course, even if they did plan that. Nothing could accomplish that goal.

  286. I do apologize for the threadjack, though.

    This isn’t a Bush thread. But Jack just had to start in with that “Bush saved us with his spear and magic helmet!” stuff and I could not resist rising to the bait.

  287. Bush was a great President and will be remembered as such in the future.

    A statue will be built in his honor in Baghdad one day.

  288. The US thought we were weak-willed pussy faggots. They thought if they’d attack us, we’d just leave afghanistan and somalia and iraq. Well, we didn’t, because we had a strong clear-eyed realist in Osama bin Ladin to bring the fight to them.

  289. Good heavens, it looks like I need to make yet another addition to INCIF.

    Jack, you’re sickening. I give you two troll thumbs up, but I can’t read anymore.

  290. *refresh*

    Ahhhhh, much better!

  291. “Your interpretation of events requires us to believe that a student of the Algerian and Afghani insurgencies would engage in a campaign of escalating provocation, but then be surprised when he got a response. It also requires us to believe that Al Qaeda got the US to bankrupt itself, damage itself diplomatically, and weaken its overall strategic position in myriad ways, by just plain dumb luck and the law of unintended consequences. It’s possible, but it doesn’t seem likely.”

    Maybe you missed the news, but it is not 2006 anymore. Al Quada got its ass kicked in Iraq. It also discredited itself in the Muslim world by launching so many attacks on Muslims. Al quada’s image in the Muslim world took an enormous hit when images of dead muslims started showing up on Al Jazera every night. Lots of Muslims will passively support killing westerners but it is a different story when they start killing other Muslims.

    Further, we were not bankrupted by Iraq. That is just crap and you know it. Obama has spent three times what Iraq cost on TARP and the porkulus bill. So shut the fuck up about bankrupting the country.

    Al quada lost 1000s of fighters in Iraq and accomplished nothing beyond killing other Muslims and giving the muslim on the street a reason to hate them. As far as Bin Ladin being a student of insurgencies, first he is a lunatic so I wouldn’t attribute that many sophisticated motives to him. Second, he got his ass kicked in both Afghanistan and Iraq. We keep killing his followers by the thousands but according to you they got us right where they want us. That sounds like more wishful thinking on your part. Iraq is over. Get over it.

  292. The plan all along was to bait Al Qaueeda into starting an insurgency in Iraq, killing thousands, and then we would kick their ass. That was the strategy all along, and Bush was brilliant!

    YEah! Kick ass! Next up: THERAN!

  293. And remember: Bush never wanted the TARP bill. It was the liberals that pushed that through. I blame Barney Frank for TARP. Bush didn’t want to sign it, but the ACORN Stormtroopers with their mind control rays and master Chris Dodd made him do it.

  294. “The plan all along was to bait Al Qaueeda into starting an insurgency in Iraq, killing thousands, and then we would kick their ass. That was the strategy all along, and Bush was brilliant!”

    That was definitely not the plan. But sometimes it is better to be lucky than good. Bush most assuredly blundered his way to victory. But sometimes that happens.

  295. The fact that he’s not all that different from Bush

    Except for the 40 point difference in popularity and the fact that he’s cheered rather than burned in effigy whenever he goes to Europe.

    Oddly, Bush and Obama’s approval ratings at this point in their first terms are very comparable, although Obama is more polarizing and divisive (Repubs really don’t like him, even more than Dems really didn’t like Bush three months in).

    Reality-based, people!

  296. Just admit it, BO is a fuck up and a disapointment.

    Only on the loony FOX news planet where Democrats’ expectations bar is set at 100 and Republicans’ at -5.

  297. Obama is more polarizing and divisive

    That was a misleading interpretation of the poll. All it indicates is that all halfway reasonable people in the Republican party have been jumping ship because it has no credibility anymore. The only people still willing to claim the Republican brand are people who live in Hannity’s America.

  298. The Iraq War was the greatest foreign policy masterstroke of the last fifty years.

  299. Jack | April 8, 2009, 3:32pm | #

    The Iraq War was the greatest foreign policy masterstroke of the last fifty years.

    Uncle – we get it the joke – UUUUUUNCLE!

  300. What joke? John and other serious minded people would agree with me.

  301. serious minded people

    *golf claps* Bravo, sir, bravo. If you are TofuSushi’s evil right wing twin, you are much more adept on this side of the aisle.

  302. Al quada lost 1000s of fighters in Iraq and accomplished nothing beyond killing other Muslims and giving the muslim on the street a reason to hate them.

    We lost thousands of fighters, spent hundreds of billions of dollars, discredited our diplomatic corps, and damaged our armed forces in ways it will take a decade or more to correct, and we accomplished nothing more than the establishment of a weak puppet state that we’re even now afraid will collapse the minute we leave, and which will probably be an Iranian client state soon enough no matter what we do.

    And our costs haven’t ended. They continue to rise every day.

    To John, any outcome in Iraq that didn’t look like the fall of Saigon and helicopters taking off from every roof in the Green Zone was “victory”.

  303. Any one know how to say the phrase, ‘Bush is a dumbass’ in Austrian?

    Lookin’ for directions liltle lady? Why you just turn east when you hit Arkansas and that will get you to Kentucky.

    I never said there were fifty seven states, you partisan hacks, I said we had traveled to fifty seven states, and had one more to go. Count them if you know how to, Republican hicks, that makes fifty eight!

  304. robc | April 8, 2009, 9:02am | #

    On a side note – how did Gibson’s The Patriot do in Britain? How about the John Adams miniseries, did that get shown across the pond?

    John Adams was on TV. Think it did ok.

    He along with George Washington etc were essentially british after all.

  305. I dunno. We’ve decided that Bush completely sucked, but it took a few years. Half the crowd here has decided Obama totally sucks after a few months. As they say, patience my dear Augustus.

  306. Lamar,

    I have plenty of disgust, contempt, disdain, and hate yet to give.

  307. I have plenty of disgust, contempt, disdain, and hate yet to give.

    And that’s why we keep you around 😉

  308. Because I haven’t yet unloaded all of it on Obama, or because I have such a vast reservoir of vitriol in the first place?

  309. “Hey! I live in Japan and bow repeatedly every day! I bet I’m a secret Muslim!”

    Or maybe just a pathetic brown-noser.

  310. WAIT! Stop the presses!!! It wasn’t a bow! The White House says it was a two-handed handshake and that Obama is taller than the king!

    Oh! Thanks goodness.

    Yeah. Right. Admit a screw up when it happens. We’re not that dumb.

  311. Lamar,
    I always though Bush sucked. And I was like twelve years old when he was elected.

  312. Obama hasn’t failed miserably-yet. He’s just on the way there. And it’s considered bad form to try and get the president to change course before’s he’s messed things up severely. Duh.

  313. I was in my 30s when he was nominated, and I couldn’t believe it. His election was less surprising, because I figured the GOP was going to beat Gore if they ran a Muppet. Come to think of it, maybe that’s what they did.

    In many ways, Obama is the sequel to Bush. I was shocked that he even was a serious candidate, given his virtual total lack of relevant experience or visible qualifications for the job. I thought the same thing about Bush, even though he had been governor of a major state.

  314. You libertardian Fox News Hannity-loving Republcian shills would be OK with this if George Bush did this, because you all loved George Bush admit it you closet Republcianz!

  315. Rob Schneider was an animal! Derp de derp!
    Then he was a woman! Ho-derp!

    And now, Rob Schneider is…A President! And he’s about to find out that being a president is harder than it looks! Derp!

    Rob Schneider in: The President.

  316. Oh, Tony, you’re fake, too? For shame.

    I did like his brother, who I thought was an outstanding governor, except for that Schiavo business. In a better world, we’d have gotten the smart, more limited government-minded Bush as president. In a perfect world, we’d have gotten a president who was actually a libertarian.

  317. Hey Angry Optimist,

    The history of the handshake is such that the person of lower status/class was expected to offer their hand first – much like the salute.

    You’ll still find salesmen, NLP folks, company VPs and yes, politicians, who won’t offer their hand first, in order to get that psychological upper hand.

    It’s not “weasel words” – you just apparently are ignorant of the history or it. Don’t be embarrassed – that’s how you learn. First, admit you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about…

    …and Menstrual Retardation, who exactly am I brown nosing by pointing out this “controversy” is goofily retarded?

    Man, I really gotta learn to stay outta the comments again.

    “Someone is Wrong on the Internet…”

  318. @TAO
    There is one meaning to a handshake, not “all sorts of meaning in context”.

    Yes, I thought the very same thing when that chick offered me a handshake after I took her out that time. 🙂

  319. @John, 1:10pm

    By any metric, BO’s accomplishments and experience pale in comparison to every other President in recent memory. Bush and Clinton were both successful Governors. Bush I had been VP and head of the CIA. Reagan had been governor of California. Carter had been a governor. Ford had been a long time Senator.

    Just a small point, dude, but Ford was never a Senator – he was a member of the House of Representatives.

  320. WHO GIVES A FUCK!

    Get a life you idiotic losers.

  321. Obama just walked up and bowed no one else did and neither did the King. And to “Palooza” you should give a fuck you dumb cunt. If you didn’t why comment? Fucking pathetic ass loser.

  322. “Just a small point, dude, but Ford was never a Senator – he was a member of the House of Representatives.”

    Well obviously I’m a complete dumbass by my own standards. That and the fact I still have an AOL email address and this isn’t the 1990s. Thank God it isn’t, I hate the Clenis. I hates the CLENIS FOREVER!!

  323. My precious!

  324. Before 1980: The Dark Agest

    1980-1993: Golden Age of AMERICA!!!

    1993-2001: This doesn’t exist.

    9/11/2001: Bad thing happened.

    9/12/2001-1/03/2007: Second Golden Age of America!!!!

    1/03/2007-1/20/2009: The DEMOCRAT Congress caused the recession.

    1/21/2009-Present: Dark Age of the Negro.

  325. I don’t understand why he would bow for a King but not for a Queen…(gasp!)… could he be sexist??? 😮

  326. I can suck myself off.

  327. I can fuck my asshole with my own dick.

    That would be funny if I were still 14.

  328. George W. Bush was our greatest President. EVER!

  329. “I can fuck my asshole with my own dick.”

    Yeah? Well I can finger my own dick hole. I call it, “The Aristocrat”.

  330. The leaders of different countries are suppose to be equals.
    This is more than politeness By seeing this vodeo I am discusted
    I now tend to believe Obama is a musim
    Obama so far in such a short time has proven that he is the worst president this country has ever had.
    Then Obama ran around the world apologizing for America “this country is the best most just and charitable country the world has ever seen.

  331. The president of United States should not bow to the king of saudi arabia period.
    The king of saudi arabia should bow the president of united states.

  332. It’s the people of USA’s fault, you should not voted for him.

  333. Obama bows because he wants the king to turn him around and really give it to him. Obama such a little.. You know.

  334. With many new announcement about the wizard of oz movies in the news, you might want to consider starting to obtain Wizard of Oz book series either as collectible or investment at RareOzBooks.com.

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