Must Libertarians Take to the Sea Rather Than All This Talk, Talk, Talk?
Over at Cato Unbound, an ongoing debate started by Patri Friedman, majordomo of the Seasteading Institute (the latest and best-thought-out iteration of the "build new island nations" path toward liberty), about whether merely talking and agitating through academia, journalism, and politics is enough to change the world in a libertarian direction. Friedman says no:
Argument has refined our principles, and academic research has enlarged our understanding, but they have gotten us no closer to an actual libertarian state. Our debating springs not from calculated strategy, but from an intuitive "folk activism": an instinct to seek political change through personal interaction, born in our hunter-gatherer days when all politics was personal. In the modern world, however, bad policies are the result of human action, not human design. To change them we must understand how they emerge from human interaction, and then alter the web of incentives that drives behavior. Attempts to directly influence people or ideas without changing incentives, such as the U.S. Libertarian Party, the Ron Paul campaign, and academic research, are thus useless for achieving real-world liberty.
What might work, then? Take to the oceans, libertarians…
Seasteading is my proposal to open the oceans as a new frontier,[6] where we can build new city-states to experiment with new institutions. This dramatically lowers the barrier to entry for forming a new government, because expensive though ocean platforms are, they are still cheap compared to winning a war, an election, or a revolution. A lower barrier to entry means more small-scale experimentation. Also, the unique nature of the fluid ocean surface means that cities can be built in a modular fashion where entire buildings can be detached and floated away. This unprecedented physical mobility will give us the ability to leave a country without leaving our home, increasing competition between governments.
This plan is one of immediate action, not hope or debate. It makes use of the people we have now rather than trying to convert the masses, and avoids entrenched interests by moving to the frontier. Most importantly, it increases jurisdictional competition. It will not just create one new country, but rather an entire ecosystem of countries competing and innovating to attract citizens…
I join the debate with Friedman today at Cato Unbound, arguing that, while seasteading seems like a valuable thing to try, the "folk activism" he disdains has its good qualities as well:
"Folk activism" — talking, debating, and proselytizing, as he defines it — does indeed have the potential to see libertarians "changing system-wide incentives." Admittedly, it's a long, slow, so far largely failed slog — if changes in every libertarian direction already are what we need. The turnings of democracy have not yet gotten us zero taxes, a completely tort-based "regulatory" regime, complete drug legalization, and an end to tariffs. But they have gotten us lower taxes, an end to antiquated systems of trucking and airline regulations, medical marijuana in some states, lower tariffs in many areas, and a systematized regime that helps in some cases stymie protectionist reflexes.
I know it's not enough. For someone as activist and eager as Patri to live the way he wants to live, unquestionably it's unsatisfactory. But I'm not convinced, in the long view, that it's utterly impossible and futile.
I'll be writing at greater length about the Seasteading project in a forthcoming issue of Reason magazine, and Katherine Mangu-Ward reported on it in Reason Online back in April 2008.
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Given that the national government is now asserting universal jurisdiction, any seasteading community without the capability of destroying a carrier battle group will fail.
As much as I like the idea of a libertarian leaning "country," afloat or on land, I'm not sure I want to have a bunch of assholes for neighbors. What appeals to me is a libertarian uptopia free of libertarians.
I've seen pictures of Libertarian gatherings. The inhabitants of this floating paradise will have to re-enact "The Rape Of The Sabine Women" to ensure any female companionship.
Welcome to Rapture!
So it would be a giant floating sausagefest, eh mantooth? Eh, count me out also.
Andrew Ryan: We all make choices in life, but in the end our choices make us.
I'm not sure I want to have a bunch of assholes for neighbors
Don't worry, I'm sure your neighbors feel the same way about you.
any seasteading community without the capability of destroying a carrier battle group will fail.
Easier than you think.
No Gods or Kings, Only Man.
So, as soon as the USS Enterprise is decommissioned and goes up for auction, we can buy it and call it "The Raft" and drift around the Pacific for decades.
I am intrigued by the possibility of an entire nation consisting of overweight males. It may not be viable past a single generation, but god, how beautiful in its purity.
Hmm. I've never been to a gathering of Libertarians. It's something I've gotta try at some point. As far as being at sea...how long do you honestly think it would be before Sugarfree and Epi started acting out their Gay Pirate Fantasies? Not long, I tell ya.
Arrgh, there be pirates on the seas!
Is this a new max hats or just an new IP address?
Or, shudder, perhaps Reason has removed their last rule for posting nonos here?
Actually, I think it's a lot cheaper to buy yourself a nice plot in the US and live 95% of the libertarian lifestyle. Sure, the Feds get worked up if you smoke pot, but it's prolly easier, cheaper and lower risk to set up some hydroponics in the boonies for personal consumption, and keep your mouth shut.
Hmmm. Judging from this thread, the Sausagefest Problem is the most dire and pressing crisis facing Libertarianism worldwide.
I'm not leaving this country until I consume every fucking dime they've stolen from me. I may have to live to be 156 to do, but I'm sticking around.
They'll be no accusations, just friendly crustaceans... under the sea
max hats got banned?
Art-P.O.G.,
Stop projecting. Besides, gay pirates are sooooo 2006.
max hats,
And goatees, glorious goatees. Talking about Starship Troopers in their bunks.
McAllister: "Yarr, it's kind of you to deliver these copies of 'Jugs.'
They'll keep my men from resorting to homosexuality...
fer about 10 minutes. Harr, Harr, Harr."
Sailor: "You should talk!"
McAllister: (bashful) "Yarr."
Warty,
He posted as "Reason Staff." I speculated it might trigger a bannening, but that was never confirmed.
actually they would not need send a carrier. since the island would be afloat a fighter jet can launch an antiship missle, which would most likley sink a platform from over the horizion, before you would even detect it. plus ballistic missles could just hit the window in the kitchen from 1,00's of miles away without warning.
I'm a little rusty, but I know how to tack in case Reason needs help getting out there. In fact, I'm willing to volunteer several months if necessary to help them out, just as long as all of them go.
Skwisgaar: This is a complete and totals, you know, sausage festival.
Toki: I love sausage festival!
Skwisgaar: What?
Toki: Like in Vienna.
Skwisgaar: No - no, Toki, that *was* a sausage festivals.
Toki: Yeah, that was good.
Skwisgaar: Yeah. It was the Vienna pork saus - um, no, this means that there's no good-looking ladies to put you-know-what intoside of them.
Toki: The sausage?
Skwisgaar: [short pause] Yeah.
Shut the fuck up, Lonewacko.
ART,
Hmmm. Judging from this thread, the Sausagefest Problem is the most dire and pressing crisis facing Libertarianism worldwide.
Yep, but it is not as bad at the Cosmotarian gaatherings in DC. Now, how to get the Cosmotarian ladies onto the boat . . . Ether comes to mind.
Warty,
max hats got banned?
Someone using that handle the other day sid they had posted as Reason Staffer or something. Didn't SugarFree call him out? I think I was just reading that thread, don't remember if I participated.
the libertarian sea settler idealist could always purchase the up for sale old oil platform off the UK coast that is reconized as soverieng. its small, holds a few people at most. but is an already regonized sovering state. so the precendt is already there. i think logistically and supply line wise it would be a freaking nightmare
Shakes fist at SugarFree!
Sugarfree,
I'm not projecting. My homosexuality is entirely heterosexual.
I wonder how large the overlap is between the (small 'l') libertarian crowd and the Comic-con crowd? Can anyone here illuminate?
The problem is success. If floating Libertaria survives and begins to thrive, it will attract the attention of the world. Then the looting will begin.
Face it, you have to incur the expense at least raising a navy if not actually fighting a war. And that makes winning elections here at home the more economically viable option.
"Don't worry, I'm sure your neighbors feel the same way about you."
If my 80-year-old neighbor hates me, she conceals it very well... particularly when she's bringing over baked goods in return for me maintaining her yard. Of course, I have never insisted on a contract and she's never made me a cake in the shape of Ayn Rand's head.
Perhaps I haven't met enough libetarians to make a truly informed judgment. On the hand, I really don't want to bob around the ocean with a bunch of pedantic fucktards.
Art,
Ah, so you understand. Excellent.
"the libertarian sea settler idealist could always purchase the up for sale old oil platform off the UK"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maunsell_Forts
Looks pretty shitty to me
Probably best off starting a libertarian revolution somewhere sunny with coffee colored women and sandy beaches
You'll probably need this
Coup d'?tat: A Practical Handbook
ISBN-10: 0674175476
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674175476/reasonmagazinea-20/
Send me an email if anything works out
apparently the book is tried and tested
🙂
Shorter Friedman: "Run away!"
It does not surprise me in the least that that family has run to fucking twits.
Lonewacko question: does he have an ideology? He might be a Rockwell-type libertarian who's gone completely crazy, but the writing on his site is too densely crazy to figure it out. Anyone know?
Would it be OK with Warren is I appropriated the DOOOOOOOOOM catchphrase?
Well, my email isn't in my handle, so obviously I can't get a message here. I post from work, but I work at a large company so perhaps they are hesitant to ban the ip. If any legitimate Reason staff or writers respond at any point asking me to stop posting, I will.
The seasteaders' national anthem?
Fuck land, i'm on a boat, motherfucker!
I mean, other than hating Mexicans.
FTW (?)
A regular here once described LoneWacko as monmaniacal. Seems to fit. What's weird is that unlike say, Edward, he actually seems to make an effort.
Sugarfree,
Oh, I understand 😉
It seems telling that the crux of Patri Friedman's argument in favor of abandoning land-based libertarianism is the lack of a "calculated strategy." If personal freedom requires a political revival of our constitutionally-guaranteed rights, and the best we can muster is the LP, then prospects are indeed grim.
However, I would argue that there is in fact a "calculated strategy" being implemented right now that few people (including Friedman) give its due credit. It's called the Free State Project. Far from being a pipe dream, FSP members are actively and independently working at the local and state levels to build a "new island nation" right here in the United States.
If more people were as motivated to move to New Hampshire and get active as they are to piss and moan online about our loss of liberty, then the precedent being set there could spread to other states even faster.
*monomaniacal
And if you don't, they'll probably call your boss and tell her you're "trolling" cosmotarian message boards when you should be working.
On the topic of Utopia
Its funny how reason are being a bit quite about the attempted anti-communist revolution in Moldova today
linky here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/08/moldova-protest-election-chisinau
Hey Everyone!!
I'm kind of going to spam the boards today with a link to the article I wrote published today by the Ludwig von Mises Institute:
Please check it out and let me know what you think!
Deliberately Misplaced Blame
by... Me 🙂
"Protesters had stormed the building in a violent protest after the ruling communists were returned to power when election results were announced on Sunday.
Police surrounded the parliament and the president's office in the early hours of this morning.
The situation in the capital, Chisinau, was calm following yesterday's unrest, which the country's president, Vladimir Voronin, described as an attempted "coup"."
They so need to be reading
Coup d'?tat: A Practical Handbook
ISBN-10: 0674175476
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674175476/reasonmagazinea-20/
If youre gonna do a job
do some research eh?
MM,
Its funny how reason are being a bit quite about the attempted anti-communist revolution in Moldova today
Do you only read whatever post is at the top of the page at any moment and think that is the whole thing here?
Try going to the H&R main page and scroll down for the several mentions.
Or is this your version of MNG's Gaza whine?
FSP committed suicide when it picked New Hampshire. I was there at the very beginning and trust me, it's long over now to anyone who isn't too emotionally invested to see it.
This is the earliest I can find (although I said it just a few days ago myself):
"Do you only read whatever post is at the top of the page at any moment and think that is the whole thing here?"
doh
missed that one!
And inevitably we'll come visit Libertopia-on-the-sea 20 years later and find some geek has decided he's the smartest libertarian and everybody would be better off under his despotic libertarian rule.
Tony,
No leftoids allowed on raft libertopia. Off with you! Into the water!
Sean Malone -- Nice essay. I enjoyed reading it.
"And inevitably we'll come visit Libertopia-on-the-sea 20 years later and find some geek has decided he's the smartest libertarian and everybody would be better off under his despotic libertarian rule."
Yeah, because we know that free-market types all end up becoming evil dictators, unlike pure, selfless liberals like yourself.
Yeah, because we know that free-market types all end up becoming evil dictators, unlike pure, selfless liberals like yourself.
Hey I believe in government. It keeps my limitless ambition in check.
NH was doomed for failure. It is too close to Boston, so Massholes have been moving there for years to take advantage of the tax situation. Also, the initial population to infiltrate was not libertarian enough to begin with, only the taxes and unique legislature were of use.
To get this right, you have to start somewhere that makes more sense from a low population standpoint, without the pesky neighbors who will take over as soon as you enact good tax reform. Wyoming and Montana come to mind. Alaska's not a bad place but too cold and too light or dark to get enough people to commit, and also heavily dominated by the US military so the USA will never let you go. Vermont has the good gun laws, socially liberal population, and a history or secession (from NY). Since it's neighbors are upstate NY instead of downstate, western Mass instead of eastern, and NH, maybe it would work. It might be better than Wyoming in that it's not completely surrounded by other US states.
ktc2,
Though your pessimism is familiar, I have to disagree. I discovered the FSP only recently and certainly wasn't present at the beginning, but from what I have seen, those people who chose to move to NH rather than wait for 20,000 people to join the project are already having a real effect.
The early movers claim at least four representatives in the statehouse and over a dozen in office at the local levels. Not to mention numerous issue activists building coalitions and infrastructure, and a campaign machine that gets stronger every cycle.
They are winning meaningful offices and putting effective pressure on legislators to consider the pro-liberty side of their votes. At the very least the FSP deserves credit for doing what the LP has never done: Inspire its members to formulate and implement an effective electoral strategy that can be successfully replicated.
Of course, by good gun laws, I mean nonexistent gun laws.
Tony,
Wow, you've converted me. Cause, ya know, all those countries founded on laissez-faire economic principles inevitably turn into dictatorships. The ones founded on calls for economic equality and social responsibility, on the other hand, are always wisely and benevolently ruled.
And inevitably we'll come visit Libertopia-on-the-sea 20 years later and find some geek has decided he's the smartest libertarian and everybody would be better off under his despotic libertarian rule.
No, because I'm already the smartest libertarian and god knows I wouldn't want the task of keeping all of the nutjobs in line. I've seen enough ground-level LP to know herding cats is easier by several orders of magnitude. It takes a moron with severe megalomania to think he can run a society.
Hey I believe in government. It keeps my limitless ambition in check.
I'm so evil for wanting things for myself. I need to punish myself. I know, I'll go make an ass of myself blogging.
T,
No, I am the smartest libertarian.
Any libertarian utopia would need some kind of citizenship test to keep out the pretenders and the opportunists. Which creates its own set of problems and contradictions.
Sample Libertarian Aptitude Test
1. Government exists to protect life, liberty and _________.
2. What is the first line of Atlas Shrugged?
3. Libertarians believe abortion is _______.
4. When you smoke weed you crave ________.
What else?
Brandon,
1.property
2.Who is John Galt?
3.wrong, except when its right
4.Doritos
Okay, I've never read Atlas Shrugged. Can I still get on the island?
I would settle for a libertarian-leaning neighborhood in NYC. Anyone up for it?
(I'm serious... gonna do this one day when I'm filthy rich)
You're not allowed on the island, T.
"I would settle for a libertarian-leaning neighborhood in NYC."
Does such a thin exist.
Damn it, should be "thing".
You're not allowed on the island, T.
Meh. I'll be forced to continue my quest for a secure bunker location from which I shall watch civilization burn.
T,
Yes, but as recompense you must agree to take shifts on the watchtower. We can't assume that everyone in the world is as lousy at building rafts as the Cubans.
T,
I have much grander ambitions. I hope to become supreme ruler of my own lunar colony. Tony has shown me that I must inevitably become a fearsome dictator, so I've decided to embrace my destiny.
Of course. Libertopia will work because the right people are in charge.
I humbly propose that we add "right people" to the drinking game.
The problem for libertarians is that we have just about run out of frontiers to escape to. Eventually you have to turn and fight your pursuers.
And Tony,
You're a twit. In the words of the Great Philosopher Chicago Tom, Why don't you go *bleep* yourself.
My posts are trollerific. I luv trollin'. If you weren't all such free-market fundies, you could be smart and relevent like me!
Stop spoofing me! Seriously, if you guys don't stop spoffing me, I'll stop posting here and you won't gett the benefit of my vast intellagense!
"My posts are trollerific. I luv trollin"
As an ardent troller (and very pround of it)
I'm so gonna defend teh Tonster
If there were no pinkos on Reason then it would all be like
Poster#1 "Government sucks"
Poster#2 "yes I wholeheartedly agree government does suck "
Poster#3 "overwhelmingly In agreement with you chaps, government is less fun than spending the night in the Bangkok Hilton, and man, should I spend some time there cus I've smuggled enuff smack"
Bid up the trollers
They give you a target for your vitriol!
But,MaterialMonkee, you forgot the valuable service I provide by showing all the posters how wrong they are about everythig!
Seasteading appeals to my inner teenage science-fiction reader personae. But it's fraught with so many reality-based problems, it's a non-starter.
I have much grander ambitions. I hope to become supreme ruler of my own lunar colony. Tony has shown me that I must inevitably become a fearsome dictator, so I've decided to embrace my destiny.
I think you're doing it backwards. First fearsome dictator, then lunar colony. Those rockets won't build themselves, you know.
Free State Project has slowly made progress while numerous other "libertarian islands" and "freedom ships" have failed. I think the FSP has the best potential right now. Everyone watches the Riddley Report right?
"Seasteading appeals to my inner teenage science-fiction reader personae. But it's fraught with so many reality-based problems, it's a non-starter."
You could say the same for libertarianism.
Zing!
T,
I'll just get Barack Obama to lend me his flying, rainbow-crapping unicorn to fly to the moon.
I'll just get Barack Obama to lend me his flying, rainbow-crapping unicorn to fly to the moon.
You have to be a virgin to ride a unicorn.
"And a unicorn winked at him. "Man," it said, "am I ever horny!"
"Hey I believe in government. It keeps my limitless ambition in check."
Stalin, Mao and Pol-Pob believed in government too.
If you kids don't stop arguing right now so help me I will turn this small nation around and take us back to the United States.
@Clemsonuee
are we there yet?
I need Medicare but I spent all my Liberdollars on crack and libertopia hos!
So help me if I have to turn around and tell you one more time that we're not there yet you're NOT going to like it!!
Seriously though; My guess on Libertopia is it looks something like the Roman Republic circa 100BC or so. But without the slaves. Giant room for success, and giant room for failure.
Though I guess if Liberdictator takes over and he's one of those real nuts then maybe Libertopia does have slavery.
As far as the Free State Project. NH gets wayyyyy to cold for a southern boy like me. South Carolina has it's faults, and goodness knows they are many and large, but we suck less than NC or Georgia.
Off topic but I remember reading a few years ago that there was a Bible-thumper version of the Free State Project that chose the Upstate of South Carolina as their starting spot. They even had a page on how once they took over the state and voted for independence the Federal Government would have to respect the vote. I guess he doesn't know we tried that once before. They also don't know us South Carolinians well. We may be Conservative, and a disproportionate number of us may want to leave the US; but we sure as hell aren't going to be led by no damn Yankee in that pursuit.
I need Medicare but I spent all my Liberdollars on crack and libertopia hos!
There is no Medicare in Libertopia! Would you like another $40 billion in bailout money?
Sorry I was chanelling Obama for a minute, there.
As much as I like the idea of a libertarian leaning "country," afloat or on land, I'm not sure I want to have a bunch of assholes for neighbors. What appeals to me is a libertarian uptopia free of libertarians.
I'd say that sums up my feelings as good as anything I've read all day. Any society wishing to be free in a sense that a sane person would recognize as freedom would do well to start off by shooting it's libertarians.
As for libertarians at sea, I've long figured international waters would would be the best place for them, given their cosmopolitan instincts and lack of regard for national sovereignty and borders. If they want to be "Citizens of the World", they might as well be in a territory under the jurisdiction to which they've pledged their fealty. They can have their party, invite anyone they want, and not annoy the rest of us. But I pictured the implementation a little differently - how about putting them on a cruise ship (suggested name "Titanic II"), and sending them off somewhere near the Bermuda Triangle?
I'm having trouble shoving my Obama enema up my ass.
Short summary of this thread:
We're fucked, but Libertarians certainly have wicked senses of humor.
That Tony character, for instance, who else could imagine spoofing such a one-dimensional figure.
Whatever floats your boat...
Warty
any seasteading community without the capability of destroying a carrier battle group will fail.
Easier than you think.
The article you linked is pure bullshit. It's way harder than you think. And if the Chinese have more than one or two working prototype hypersonic missiles, I'd be amazed. You are talking some pretty sophisticated technology here and I doubt the Chinese are up to it.
Yet.
Josh Eboch, first you made lots of sense
It seems telling that the crux of Patri Friedman's argument in favor of abandoning land-based libertarianism is the lack of a "calculated strategy." If personal freedom requires a political revival of our constitutionally-guaranteed rights, and the best we can muster is the LP, then prospects are indeed grim.
And then something went really, really wrong.
However, I would argue that there is in fact a "calculated strategy" being implemented right now that few people (including Friedman) give its due credit. It's called the Free State Project.
Far from being a pipe dream, FSP members are actively and independently working at the local and state levels to build a "new island nation" right here in the United States.
You really think this is going to work?
Anyway, the problem with Libertipia is that we'll kill each other off because, after all, so many people are not REAL libertarians.
And RC Dean is right anyway, at this point no matter where you try and float, some land lubber is going to claim it's his.
Free State Project? What would be more impactful is to get every libertarian in an area to shut the fuck up and hire 1,000 congenial, semi-intelligent, generally non-crazy actors to work as stand ins. Wait! It just came to me! Fucktard Island is the perfect solution... by moving libertarians out of the U.S., we actually might give libertarian ideas a chance.
"Hey, you aren't one of the crazy asswipes?"
"Nah, they all live on a raft now."
"Well, O.K., I'll vote to legalize crack then."
"Given that the national government is now asserting universal jurisdiction, any seasteading community without the capability of destroying a carrier battle group will fail."
I'd say they would have more to worry about from the Chinese Navy. They are on an expansionist bent and without the protection of the U.S. Navy any seasteading community would be easy pickings for them.
Can't I be A moderate centered American without being pandered too by granola eaters or...bible beaters?
I like bitching about the government and being high and mighty way too much to ever live in Libertaria.