Foreign Policy

Will a "Right-Wing" Israel Get Less Respect from the U.S.?

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Jason Horowitz in the New York Observer wonders if the Netanyahu regime will make it more chic to be able to criticize Israel:

"It might be possible to open a debate that says, 'Look, this is not an anti-Israel discussion," said Mr. [Tony] Judt, the director of the Remarque Institute at New York University, whose criticism of the pro-Israel lobby in America kicked off a public fight during which, at one point, he accused Mr. [Abe] Foxman of sabotaging a scheduled speaking engagement at the Polish consulate and likened him to gutter trash.

"This is a discussion about what's happened in Israel such that there's a far-far-right government that no one could have imagined 10 years ago, and certainly not 40 years ago," he said. "So let's talk about what this means. We now have a government that doesn't even pay lip service to the peace process. It doesn't acknowledge Palestinians' right to a state and in the case of the foreign minister, if he is appointed, he's an out-and-out racist. That's something you can say about a country, I hope, without even appearing to criticize the country per se."

Not that never has been heard a discouraging word about the Israeli state and its actions in American discourse. But now, Horowitz wonders, such words

won't be limited to America's political margins-the Cynthia McKinneys and Jim Morans and Ron Pauls in Washington, or those Juan Coles and Stephen Walts and John Mearsheimers in the academic world, who constitute what amounts to a political niche as European-style critics of the Israeli enterprise and of what they believe to be a much-too-powerful Israel lobby in America…..

Certainly, there are indications of a shifting posture at the very top levels of American government, beginning in Jerusalem on March 3, when U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton pushed Israel to open border crossings "to address the humanitarian needs in Gaza" and again called for the fulfillment of obligations to create a "viable Palestinian state." The next day, in Ramallah, she publicly criticized Israel's plan to demolish dozens of Palestinian homes as "unhelpful" to the peace process.

It was hardly vitriolic stuff-or anything remotely indicative of any organic hostility toward the Jewish state-but in diplomatic-speak, and Clinton-diplomatic-speak no less, it represented an unmistakable change not only from the unwavering Israel-boosting of the two Bush terms but from Mrs. Clinton's four-square-behind-Israel rhetoric as a senator from New York.

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  1. As I recall, Clinton made controversial statements about Israel and Palestine as a first lady.

    As I recall, she had to back away from them when she was lobbying for the Senate.

    So, yeah, this may be Clinton backing away from what she said as a Senator from New York, but I think it might be more in line with what she said before she was a Senator too.

  2. Today's secret ingredient is:

    Israel!

    Allez cuisine!

  3. Here's a link to part of what I was talking about...

    Hillary in Gaza 10 Years Ago

    She was calling for Palestinian Statehood before the consensus had it that anybody was supposed to be doing that, I think.

  4. The Arab kid will dump Israel. That will make the Libertarians happy, but it will hurt the U.S. more than Israel (not that the Libertarians care about that either).

  5. Thing is... Israel can do no wrong, and should be free to job drop bombs on willy-nilly on civilian population centers without the slightest retribution. The same goes for engaging in massive land theft, or bull-dozing those Palestinian homes that see construction to accommodate growing families (sorry, you need proper permits from the authorities, which will be denied because you're um, not the "chosen" people).

    Indeed, Israel has the sacred right to deny the return of so-called "Palestinians" returning to their actual homes after the expulsion of '48. It doesn't matter if they had families living there for hundreds of years. Jews, however, by virtue of being Jewish alone, retain the right of "return," even if they've set foot in Israel.

    Oh, and let's not forget government-subsidized segregated housing and loyalty oaths and...

    Of course we're not allowed to offer the slightest criticism of Israel. I remember a couple years ago howls of outrage (quite proper) of Billy Graham being taken to task for his anti-Semitic comments on the Nixon tapes. Tricky Dick naturally had the same sentiments, though maintained Jews were reliably good on at least one topic: Israel. There was nowhere near equivalent outrage at Graham who, on tapes that emerged years earlier, had encouraged Nixon to bomb civilian infrastructure in Vietnam that would have resulted in the estimated deaths of over a million people. Actively cheering a policy to slaughter a million Vietnamese is obviously trivial compared to casual country club racism of the 70s.

    Republican, Libertarian, Democrat -- whatever. Ron Paul's a nutter, and Mckinney's also a bit crazy, but there's virtually no one in a major party the slightest bit willing to criticize Israel, and I think Paul was one of -- what? -- eight members of the House who didn't applaud Israel's war crimes against Lebanon a couple years ago?

    It's depressing self-described "libetarians" are all too willing to support virtually unchecked state authority/occupation/violence/theft. Jesus, will H. Clinton ever compare body counts? Offer up the observation that something like 10 times as many Palestinian children have been killed as Israeli children? The number of K. rockets fired after the cease-fire and before the cycle of violence that started a few months ago? The absolutely insane amount of financial, military and diplomatic aide given by the United States to Israel? Um, noooooooooooo.

    Sorry, that's my little rant for the year on this stupid, infuriating topic.

  6. I think that Israel feels very lonely and I don't blame her. Obama claims that a nuclear Iran is unacceptable but at the same time appears ready to accept it.

    I am not Jewish and I don't live in Israel. If I did I would want to strike at the nuclear facilities of Iran just for self preservation.

    I don't think self-preservation is alarmist or right wing. The clock is ticking and Israel is on the clock.

  7. Once in a land far, far away there lived a group of people called Trids. The Trids were happy except for the huge ogre that lived on the mountain. The ogre would periodically terrorize the Trids.

    The Trids tired of the ogre and sought to reason with him. They thought one of their religious leaders would be a good intermediary. So a group of Trids and their minister went up the mountain and before they could even say one word the ogre kicked them down the mountain. Not being dismayed the Trids thought that maybe the ogre was Catholic, so they sent another delegation, this time led by the local priest. But alas, as they approached the ogre he once again kicked them all down the mountain.

    The Trids were upset until they thought that perhaps the ogre was Jewish. Unfortunately, no Trids were Jewish, so they wrote to the people of another land and asked them to send a Rabbi to help them with the ogre. The Rabbi arrived and led a delegation of Trids up the mountain. The ogre saw them coming and kicked all of them, except for the Rabbi, down the mountain. The Rabbi, having been told of the previous expeditions, wondered why he alone had not been kicked down the mountain, so he asked the ogre. The ogre laughed and replied:

    "Silly Rabbi, kicks are for Trids!"

  8. Israel should absolutely attack Iran. It would start a regional war which the US would enter on the side of the Israelis. Doesn't matter if Obama would personally WANT to do it or not. Once a war in which the survival of Israel itself is at stake, he'd be forced by his own party to intervene. If he didn't, the Israelis would put a bullet in his head then Biden would do it. Israel holds all the cards. They don't need our permission because whatever they do, our craven politicians will have to support it.

  9. Like the formation of
    Israel was bad
    well known fact!!!!

    jews is bad
    becus they is the jews that fucked over the europeans god

    and Europeuns is the most imperialistic, racist bunch of cunts in human history
    they took over the entire planet and still blamed the jews for trying to take it over
    which is slightly odd when you think about it

    so when you fuck over the god of the most imperialistic, racist bunch of cunts in human history

    you're pretty much fucked

    not to say that teh Isrealis arn't a bunch of cunts

    it just that they're nazis because they got together and formed a state

    and of course the
    Pakistani Musim league are all cool

    cus like if you commit hideous crimes against humanity and you're a Muslim no-one gives a shit
    but If you is a Jew

    well thats bad

    all I can say is PAKISTAN AND BANGLADESH

    are lovely countries but

    ISRAEL

    must die because you know they
    arn't very cristiun
    or eurupeun

    and theres sumthin in my genes that makes me wanna send them to the gas chambers

  10. Israel is a product of UN eminent domain.

    Yet conservatives who despise both (the UN and eminent domain) are the first to rush to Israel' s defense.

    I personally don't give a fuck about Jerusalem - but the religious nuts do.

  11. Epi wins.

  12. What business is it of you alleged non interventionists if Israel retards Iran's nuclear weapons program (the most they can accomplish)?

    Cripers! Are you so anti-Semitic that the Jews should die just die (Elaine's phrase)?

    I can understand how you Ernst Rhoem wannabes want to see millions of Jews killed, but decent, normal people don't feel that way.

    Maybe that is why after over 30 years and G-d knows how many millions of dollars, you've only managed to elect three people to congress. You Libertarians are a sick, evil joke. All you guys can really do is cost Republicans elections so Leftists such as Obama can get elected.

    p.s. your strawmen comments are even more revolting coming from a periodical with the name "Reason" on it.

  13. Drinkity-drink-drink!

  14. Where is Tim "junket" Cavanaugh when u need him?

  15. die just die (Elaine's phrase)

    He, he, he, or better yet, Jerry's phrase:

    Uncle Leo: How can I date her, Jerry. She's an anti-Semite!

    Jerry: Look at you, Uncle Leo. You are pathetic. Can you blame her?

    Underzog is Uncle Leo. Look Underzog, an anti-Semite in the grass over there!

    All you guys can really do is cost Republicans elections so Leftists such as Obama can get elected.

    How many scrambled chromosomes do you have to have to even make this argument? One word, GWB.

  16. [Horowitz wonders that such words] won't be limited to America's political margins-the Cynthia McKinneys and Jim Morans and Ron Pauls in Washington, or those Juan Coles and Stephen Walts and John Mearsheimers in the academic world, who constitute what amounts to a political niche as European-style critics of the Israeli enterprise and of what they believe to be a much-too-powerful Israel lobby in America.....

    IOW, the mainstream in the United States might finally feel as free to criticize Israeli policy as the mainstream in Israel does.

  17. Hopefully iran DOES get the bomb and drops it on israel. Not that they will. Obama will install a pro-israel government like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Goddamn jews have ruined the world.

  18. Here's an idea: we say only nice things about Israel, but stop giving them any taxpayer money. And if they want to attack anyone, they can do it on their own.

  19. Don't you just love it when Jews Say:

    "People Blame the Jews for Everything...it's not fair.

    We are peaceful people. These people started a war with us. We didn't do anything to them."

  20. If this thread is any indication, it's already getting easier, not just to criticize the country per se but to attack The Jews per se.

    And Bush, like many a Republican prez, is probably unfairly tarred with the "unwavering support" brush. I distinctly remember him laying into some Israeli official at Sharm-al-Sheikh in the early aughts over a sum of Palestinian funds that the Israelis were refusing to release to the pre-Hamas Palestinian government. Also, if you take seriously the thesis that Israel didn't want the U.S. to knock off Saddam Hussein's regime (a fairly plausible thesis, given the predictable result), you'd have to say Bush was further from the Israeli reservation than generally believed.

  21. Also, if you take seriously the thesis that Israel didn't want the U.S. to knock off Saddam Hussein's regime (a fairly plausible thesis, given the predictable result),

    I dunno, while there is no doubt some benefit to the 'devil you know' imo Israel's security situation was marginally improved by the ousting of Sadam Hussien. (My own opinion is that, much more than in the US, there was likely no singular opinion in Israel wrt to the Iraq invasion)

    And the latest iteration of the infatada has its own timeline which is almost completely independent of OIF. It is much more driven by Arafat's death, the Lebanon invasion, and to a small extent, 9/11 itself. (The first big offensive by israel in this round was in 2002. And stuff like Rachel Corrie started literally a week before the Tomahawks started flying)

  22. Netanyahu is far more left wing than right wing.

    From the Desk of Moshe Feiglin: The Dawn of Faith Based Leadership
    (March 26, '09)

    This article is translated from Moshe Feiglin's article in the Makor Rishon newspaper.

    The new government that Netanyahu is going to present soon has no new message and is incapable of dealing with the gangrene spreading in our land since the hug with Arafat. What we have been getting since Oslo is what we will continue to get. Bibi's new government will be predicated on commitment to Oslo and all of its offspring agreements, commitment to continue the war against the settlements and the end of the struggle against the 'rule of law gangsters.'

    The security nightmare who fled Lebanon for the Four Mothers movement, brought Katyusha rockets to Hadera and transformed a military triumph in Gaza into a strategic loss (this is only a partial list) will continue to serve as Defense Minister. The "extreme rightist," who supports dividing Jerusalem and the establishment of a Palestinian state will be our Foreign Minister. He will likely restore Jericho casino tycoon, Martin Schlaf, to his position of decisive influence over Israel's foreign policy - through the good offices of his friend and confidante, Dov Weissglass, who will be the General Director of the Foreign Ministry. Justice Minister Friedman will be replaced by a 'court' religious Jew - to the glee of the judges in Jerusalem.

    As we warned, you may have voted Right. But what you got was the Left of the Left.

    cont. on link

    http://www.jewishisrael.org/eng_contents/update/5769/6933.htm

  23. Look, Hamas targets civilians. Israel doesn't.

    It's not Israel's fault that Hamas has forces an urban guerilla-style war and the associated civilian casualties.

    What option did Israel have? Not defend themselves?

    If we're living through a 2nd 1930s, complete with economic chaos and brainless progressive leaders, it's not a stretch to realize that a 2nd Holocaust is also around the corner. During tough times, the Jews always get it. Good to know that so many libertarians are brave enough to stand up to the Hebraic Menace.

  24. Israel is to Palestinians as the US is to Mexicans.

    Not a perfect analogy, but if Mexicans started blowing up buses as often as Palestinians there would be more dead Mexicans.

    Then again, plenty of Mexicans come to the US and commit serious crimes and little is done about it.

  25. Speaking of vitriol, I just read that that commie rat bastard Ward Churchill won his case against the university that fired him. The Jury awarded him one dollar.

    -jcr

  26. What option did Israel have? Not defend themselves?

    That's the only option that would satisfy some people.

    -jcr

  27. Look, Hamas targets civilians. Israel doesn't.

    Not only that, Hamas targets their own civilians.

    -jcr

  28. Why does this thread include only people who think Jews cause all the problems in the world, and others who think Israel can do no wrong?

    Israel was created as an answer to a fundamental humanitarian crisis (thousands of Jewish refugees being turned away from every country, including the U.S.). In addition, Israel was attacked when it announced its independence (during the announcement, Ben Gurion told Arabs that they had nothing to fear and that they would become full citizens). That being said, despite the fact that Israel was attacked, both in 48, and 67, it dealt with, and continues to deal with, the refugee situation very poorly. Even if a country is attacked, this does not mean that it has the moral high ground for every action that follows. Israeli leaders should have found a way to repatriate the Palestinian refugees, soon after the wars, no matter the reason they left. Some Palestinians and Arab countries have also contributed to some self-inflicted misery, by focusing their attention on violence over economic development, but Israel is not blameless, and have extended the occupation of Palestinians for too long.

    Not every situation requires an evil villain and a innocent victim. Things are more complicated. Many Jews have lived continuously in Israel for centuries, so the idea that Jews just came and took over is not particularly accurate. Indeed, the early Zionists proposed a two-state plan, before Israel was ever created. That being said, Israeli leaders have made some giant mistakes, and have caused unecessary pain for Palestinians, as well as their own people. Most Palestinians just want to maintain a good life for their families, but they are not seeing improvements in their situation, and are justifiably very angry. We can only sensibly discuss the Mid-East conflict if we stop looking at everything through such a binary lense, and start realizing that we are talking about people with some justified anger, but also some major moral lapses.

    And the swipes at "Jews" only reinforces to people that Israel is a necessary safe-haven for Jews. Why would you want to convince people to further support a country whose existence you believe is neither necessary nor justified?

  29. There are too many anti-Semites among the Libertarians.

    I still suggest that the non Nazi type/non anti-Semitic/non hate America Libertarians split off and form some other group and not let themselves be infiltrated by the Communist Left and Nazi Right as has happened in the Libertarian party and in this forum.

  30. And while it's laudable that Tim mentions the anti-Semitism that goes on in this forum, "Reason" itself brings it on by focusing mainly on Israel (a country the size of New Jersey) and not on Islam. In fact, "Reason" covers up for Islam such as when it didn't really report the Mubai terrorist attack with the vicious attack on the Chabad house (which "Reason" magazine refused to mention).

    Reason also doesn't mention the revolting rise in honor killings that this forums' Islamic heroes do here.

    "Reason" doesn't mention that Arab head of an Islamic moderate tv station who chopped off his wife's head in Buffalo Islamic rage boy addresses the case of Muslim tv execs' wife's beheading.

    It's clear that "Reason" magazine tailors its articles for the benefit of its largely pro Arab terrorist/anti-Semitic audience. It should not be suprised when so many anti-Semites come out of the woodwork here to condemn the Jews and Israel.

    Start writing accurately about Islam and its continuing death cult brutatlity. You'll get screams and even more foaming at the mouth from the many anti-Semites here, but you'll sleep better at night.

  31. Israel is a Nationalist state. That means one culture, its languages, its customs, its values and the heritage from which it arose.

    That offends politically correct Americans who want to kumbaya us into one big globalist/diversity love-fest, despite that having never worked in the past.

    I don't think American Jews are going to let the left's racial one-upmanship do what Hitler failed to complete.

  32. Hey, all you Libertarians and National Socialists on here, I know a website that agrees with all of you!

    No really, check out the site and see for yourself; it agrees with Ron Bailey and the eco-fascists too!

    And Ron Paul. And (probably) everybody else at lewrockwell.com, plus David Duke.

  33. I don't think American Jews are going to let the left's racial one-upmanship do what Hitler failed to complete.

    I would like to think that but I am proven wrong so many times, on an individual level, that it has become only a fantasy.

  34. I's fascinating to watch people who want a homeland for the Jews so "those people" won't come and live here call people who criticize Israel's treatment of the Palestinians antisemites.

    It's a dirty rotten shame that the Palestinians end up paying the price for western antisemitism.

  35. It's a dirty rotten shame that the Palestinians end up paying the price for western antisemitism.

    Maybe a lot of Americans dislike this phony people, the Palestinians, because of incidents like THIS.

    "Arabs are savages who just don't want to use their minds."

    Ayn Rand

    "And thou shalt call him Ishmael and he will be a wildman. His hand against everyman and everyman's hand against his."

    Genesis 16:12

  36. "If this thread is any indication, it's already getting easier, not just to criticize the country per se but to attack The Jews per se."

    People that criticize "the Jews" make the same mistake as people like Underzog do. "The Jews" and Israel are not the same thing. "The Jews" are not responsible for what the Israeli government does. Most of them do not even live in Israel, and not all of the ones that do live there support the nutty things the government there does.

  37. Anyone who thinks Barack Axlerod Emanuel Obama is going to change course on Israel is nuts.

  38. "Israel was created as an answer to a fundamental humanitarian crisis"

    And its creation created a fundamental humanitarian crisis (the displacement and occupation of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians)

    "Look, Hamas targets civilians. Israel doesn't."

    Yeah, it's just that Israel kills many, many times more civilians...

    "Israel is to Palestinians as the US is to Mexicans."

    We rule the Mexicans by force? I didn't know that.

    "Israel is a Nationalist state."

    Yeah, that's what Hitler was going for too. Geez, those politically correct people that whine about nationalist states...

    "What option did Israel have? Not defend themselves?"

    Maybe defend themselves without slaughtering thousands of people? Or how about stop ruling hundreds of thousands of people against their will by force? That might be a good place to start...

  39. I don't recognize the Israel Judt is talking about, except for the Lieberman-is-a-racist part. Netanyahu DOES pay lip service to the peace process and Palestinian statehood - in fact, way more than any Palestinian leader at the moment. Also any coalition that includes Labor cannot be construed as far right. Moreover, this ridiculous myth that nobody has been allowed to criticize Israel is just well-poisoning by people whose arguments simply haven't been strong enough to make a broad impact. Most Americans simply support Israel b/c they've seen the alternative and it's way, way worse. All the crybaby handwringing by Judt and his ilk is MAYBE starting to change that, but so what. When the shit hits the fan, Obama will want Israel and the Saudis - not Iran - in his corner. American support of Israel is the very definition of realpolitik.

  40. BakedPenguin | April 2, 2009, 10:37pm | #

    Here's an idea: we say only nice things about Israel, but stop giving them any taxpayer money. And if they want to attack anyone, they can do it on their own.

    I second that proposal. While we're at it, let's just cut the entire foreign aid program from the US budget.

  41. The extreme accusations against Israel from fringes on the left are getting repetitive. They've got the same basic formula:

    1) Demonize Israel

    2) Call Israel and Israel supporters "right-wing"

    3) Feel smug at being on the left instead of the right.

  42. Will a "Right-Wing" Israel Get Less Respect from the U.S.?

    Shouldn't that be:

    Will a "Left-Wing" US Give Less Respect to Israel?

    Dog bites man, no?

  43. I's fascinating to watch people who want a homeland for the Jews so "those people" won't come and live here call people who criticize Israel's treatment of the Palestinians antisemites.

    It's a dirty rotten shame that the Palestinians end up paying the price for western antisemitism.

    Excuse me? Those who are pro-Israel just don't want the Jews to come to, say, the US or Europe? Nice straw man.

  44. Maybe defend themselves without slaughtering thousands of people?

    Gosh, why didn't they think of that?

    Silly Jews, going out of their way to kill innocents.

    Do let us know how self-defense is accomplished without civilian casualties against an enemy that conducts itself as Hamas and Hezbollah do, MNG.

    Those who are pro-Israel just don't want the Jews to come to, say, the US or Europe?

    I, for one, would be delighted to have every single Jew in Israel move to the United States. Even though most would probably vote either Democratic or Republican.

    But, oddly, since WWII the Jews haven't been willing to trust their well-being to any nation but their own. Can't imagine why.

  45. If someone shoots a BB gun in my general direction, I have the right to firebomb his entire neighborhood. Duh.

  46. Maybe defend themselves without slaughtering thousands of people? Or how about stop ruling hundreds of thousands of people against their will by force? That might be a good place to start...

    They left Gaza and your savages started up with increased terrorism and rockets. The Israelis shouldn't have left in the first place.

    "Look, Hamas targets civilians. Israel doesn't."

    Yeah, it's just that Israel kills many, many times more civilians...

    MNG! I already showed you Article 28 of the 1949 Geneva Convention. Your Hamas heroes are committing war crimes with their rockets and hiding behind civilians (their own).

    You already know some of this because I showed you Article 28 of the Geneva Convention (1949).

    It is typical of your dishonesty just like your Muslim friends (taqqiyah) that you pretend I didn't point it out or that I wouldn't catch you on this again.

    "The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations. "

    Article 28 Geneva Convention (1949)

    "And thou shalt call him Ishmael and he will be a wildman. His hand agains everymany and everyman's hand against him."

    Genesis 16:12

    "They're savages! They stole our oil and try to murder us with it."

    Ayn Rand on Phil Donahue commenting upon the Iranian Hostage crises

  47. "I second that proposal. While we're at it, let's just cut the entire foreign aid program from the US budget."

    Amen. What says ally better than fucking over the only liberal democracy in the region by putting them on equal footing as a psycho death cult that uses giant stuffed animals to teach children to kill the Jews.

    I mean, that isn't both morally retarded and strategically stupid at the same time. Hell, we should fuck over every single ally we have, thus ensuring they will gladly help us when we need it.

    Good to see people think shit through rather than posting "I am more libertarian than you" bullshit on these forums.

  48. These idiots are so focused on their anti-Semitism and hatred of Israel, that they don't realize that any abandonment of Israel will hurt them and Socialist America more than it will the state of Israel.

    They don't understand the Arabs because they hate the Jews so much. It's just like when Adolf Hitler concentrated the railroads to gas the Jews instead of supplying the whermacht on the Eastern Front.

    Anti-Semitism trumps self interests and even physical survival among these anti-Semite.

  49. Many factors convinced Jews that they would be safer in Israel than in other countries. Jews fleeing the Spanish Inquisition settled in Zfat, Israel. The modern call for a return to Zion started in the mid 19th Century. It became very popular among Russian Jews fleeing the programs about 100 years ago. Oh, and Arab and North African Jews fleeing expulsion from the countries of their birth found refuge in Israel during the past 60 years.

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