Bones, Thugs, and Dictators

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What becomes of a down-on-his-luck historian, recently released from an Austrian jail, who bet his career on the premise that the Holocaust was not, in fact, the industrialized killing of European Jewry, but rather a great typhus epidemic for which Adolf Hitler bears no responsibility? The Daily Telegraph reports that disgraced historian David Irving, who now allows readers to download his books for free from his website, is getting into the Nazi memorabilia business:

Items up for sale on the site include Hitler's walking stick, available for £7,000, and a goblet and spoon given as a christening present by Heinrich Himmler to Hermann Goering's daughter, which can be bought for £4,000.

Irving authenticates the goods, which are offered by other sellers, and takes a 15 per cent cut commission.

The 70-year-old says he is currently trying to confirm the authenticity of bones said to be from Hitler and his girlfriend Eva Braun. Strands of the Fuhrer's hair are also expected to go on sale for £130,000.

Yes, David Irving is selling an Eva Braun vertebra on his website; a perfect gift for any aspiring member of Bund Deutscher Mädel. When Irving sued historian Deborah Lipstadt in 1996 for libel—and lost, of course—defense attorneys easily demonstrated that the Hitler's War author was a committed anti-Semite and racist, though he, of course, denied that he was motivated by race hatred. "You wish to call it racism," he told the presiding judge, "that is your choice. I call it patriotism." While locating the Bones of Braun auction on his website, I came across this latest "diary" entry in which, in a fit of patriotism, he describes his horror of being mentioned on a blog written by a black women. The woman claims to have met Irving outside of his Key West home, sometime in the mid-1990s, of which the brave dissident historian is skeptical:

While following [the Bishop Williamson] story, I stumble across a link to what is evidently a Negro "sisters'" blog which carries the following story about a 1995 episode of which I have only the dimmest memory, when we were staying in Newton Street [in Key West]… I was writing on the porch, and not in the habit of "greeting" passing Black females…How many errors can one make in just a dozen sentences? Thank God the Blacks do not rule America. Oh, I forgot.

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  1. David Irving and Ron Paul would make a great pair. Mexikaner raus!

  2. I expect there exists an death metal band called Eva Braun Vertebra.

  3. I, for one, embrace our new disgraced-historian-greeting black overlords.

  4. I expect there exists an death metal band called Eva Braun Vertebra.

    If not, there should be. Let’s start one. I play electric trumpet.

  5. David Irving lives in Key West?

    Hahahahahahahahahahaha!

    You can’t make this stuff up.

  6. So Irving is a racist jerk as well as a holocaust denier. Do tell.

  7. Lefiti,
    David Irving and Ron Paul would make a great pair.

    Why, exactly?

  8. Innominate: the album will be called “Mein Spine”

  9. So Irving is a racist jerk as well as a holocaust denier. Do tell.

    He was a very anal researcher – leaving no stone unturned to demonstrate that Hitler did not leave a single document signed that indicated he wanted to exterminate the Jews. That’s his book, Hitler’s War. Of course, Hitler could have just told his henchmen to “take care of that business we [wink, wink] talked about, will you?”, without the need to document anything.

  10. Holocaust denial.

    I must add that to my list of clear signs that a person is a complete willful idiot not worth speaking with along with young earth creationsim.

  11. Ich bin ein vertebrate will be the first single.

  12. FTA: The right-wing author, who was jailed in Austria for denying the Holocaust

    I have to admit that I didn’t follow the whole trial issue, but didn’t someone famous stand up for his right to make unpopular statements? What was all that about?

    But, it’s great to see that Reason is once again standing foresquare on the side of free speech, just as long as it’s not filled with hate or advocates a return to the gold standard.

  13. David Irving and Ron Paul would make a great pair. Mexikaner raus!

    If Ron Paul had demanded that immigration laws be enforced against one group and not another, then you’d have a point, but he didn’t, so you don’t. He’d deport an Englishman who overstayed his visa just as soon as a Mexican who did so.

    Oh, and fuck you for smearing an honest man.

    -jcr

  14. There’s no doubt that by the time Irving’s biography of Goering was published, he’d gone off the deep end: Just check the picture of him on the jacket. Hint: swept forelock, toothbrush mustache, sullen glare.

    But I’ve always felt that “Hitler’s War” got a bum rap because Irving’s picture of Hitler as a successful and popular politician offended many reviewers who thought ‘charisma’ was a Good Thing in a pol and the peculiar property of decent politicians.

    In fact, Hitler was a popular, visionary, take-charge leader with a plan (all the things the media say Americans prize in a politician) and if the only lesson we take from his story is “Mothers, don’t let your babies grow up to be demoniacally possessed bastards,” we’ll miss the valuable warning about ‘desirable’ political qualities it contains.

    Of course, “Hitler’s War” does need to be read with Irving’s later failings in mind, and the thought that they are probably subtly present even in “War.” But The book does have some value.

  15. JCR,
    Oh, and f..k you for smearing an honest man.

    He’s a leftie; that is what a leftie does – just like Aesop’s scorpion.

  16. So Irving is a racist jerk as well as a holocaust denier. Do tell.

    Yeah. You hardly ever run into someone with both of those traits.

  17. “”Lefiti,
    David Irving and Ron Paul would make a great pair.
    “”

    Why, exactly?

    Well, they both hate Israel, they both hang with Nazis, they both welcome Holocaust deniers to their forums, they both advocate Neville Chamberlain’s approach to diplomacy with fascist dictators, and they both blame the current economic crisis on Jewish bankers.

    Other than that, no, I suppose they don’t have much in common. Isn’t it wonderful, though, when people learn to put their differences aside and embrace diversity?

  18. PersonFromPorlock, you just f’d up the poem I was writing. Thanks a lot, jerk.

  19. FTG,

    Unlike Stalin, Hitler did not like to leave his “fingerprints” on the activities of the state; he was very much into what we would call plausible deniability. Stalin on the other hand – while the Soviet state did whitewash history for the masses – didn’t to the best of my knowledge have a problem signing things, etc.

  20. Or so I have read. I can’t recall where I’ve read that; but it has been in a number of secondary sources.

  21. Yet there are millions who deny Bush’s war crimes and genocidal policy in Iraq and Afghanistan

  22. Well, they both hate Israel, they both hang with Nazis

    You’re wrong on two counts already. RP doesn’t hate Israel, he just wants to quit giving them US tax money.

    they both blame the current economic crisis on Jewish bankers.

    RP blames the crisis on the US congress and the Fed. This applies to all of the members of both organizations, Jews and non-Jews alike.

    Oh, and fuck you too, you lying lefty piece of shit.

    -jcr

  23. In fact, Hitler was a popular, visionary, take-charge leader with a plan

    That’s why I wince when I hear media whores praising politicians as “leaders”. This country doesn’t need a leader, we need a manager to take care of the work we give him to do.

    -jcr

  24. Hey, free minds AND free markets. What’s your problem??

  25. So the value Irving adds to these transactions is he authenticates the goods? Really?

  26. Since no one has said it yet,

    Shut the fuck up Lonewacko!

    But, it’s great to see that Reason is once again standing foresquare on the side of free speech, just as long as it’s not filled with hate or advocates a return to the gold standard.

    I didn’t see Moynihan say the dude needed to be silenced. Free speech goes both ways. If you freespeech something blatantly ridiculous(of which you seem to be intimately familiar), you should expect to be freespeeched right back.

  27. Sure, MoRon the APauling doesn’t hate Israel. He just calls Israel an “occupier”, advocates loudly for cutting off all financial support to Israel (but never to its enemies), refuses to acknowledge that Israel’s enemies are all terrorists, and says nary a word about all the wars of aggression against it by all those ethnic Jordanians squatting in Israel’s back yard. Sure.

    Of course, Don Black and co. weren’t Nazis; they were just National Socialists. Silly me, how could I have gotten the two mixed up?

    I take it welcoming Holocaust deniers to one’s forums and advocating Neville Chamberlain’s approach to diplomacy with fascist dictators is still fine with you?

    I had no idea I was on the left. I kind of thought we’d buried all that “Israel is evil because there’s a helluva lot more Arabs than there is Jews and we need the oil” thing back when we were making fun of Billy Carter here on the right.

  28. ktc2: “Holocaust denial. I must add that to my list of clear signs that a person is a complete willful idiot not worth speaking with along with young earth creationsim.”

    Well, let’s see if you know what you’re talking about, to begin with. Has it occurred to you that pretending that a meaningless word standing for a free-form, undefined concept is “true,” is in itself a recognisable mark of willful idiocy?

    Look at it this way: we can always construe complex sets of events into “single historical facts” and maintain an epistemological validity to our discourse if a clear definition of our meaning exists. Historical narrative would be a desert of intractable minutiae if we didn’t do just that. Thus, the Second World War may be called a fact, much like the fact that I entered a comment on this forum or any other simple empirical truth. This is because, in spite of the great complexity of the historical events, we establish definitions and understand them: a “war” is a state of belligerence between states, a “world war” is a war of global world significance, and “the Second World War” is the particular world war that took place between 1939 and 1945.

    Similarly, if we are to take the “Holocaust” as an historical fact, rather than a vague set of religious-like beliefs, we should define our meaning. For instance, a biblical holocaust is simply a sacrifice consumed by fire, and “ill-will towards the Jews,” “persecution of the Jews,” “the shooting of one’s Jewish grandfather in Russia” or “some mass killings of Jews” are not “the Holocaust,” the one historians are talking about when they capitalise the noun. I presume you will agree that it is impossible to debate the supposedly historical “Holocaust” if — alone among alleged historical facts — it is allowed to remain an open concept devoid of meaning and form.

    The “Holocaust” then is assumed to be a relatively precise set of events involving an attempted extermination of the Jews, resulting in approximately 6 million of them being murdered, mainly in the German supposedly homicidal gas chambers. I believe anyone who has been around for the last half century, living anywhere but in the deepest Amazonian jungle, is familiar with this.

    In this sense then, we are perfectly entitled to claim the “Holocaust” is a fiction, since all the above claims are false: no extermination (real or attempted), no 6 million (not even approximately), and no homicidal gas chambers (not even in the supposed “extermination camp” of Auschwitz-Birkenau where by far the largest part of the presumed gassings is supposed to have taken place). To understand this, however, it is not enough to sit comfortably on your “acquired knowledge.” You’ll need to actively, and perhaps painfully, search for yourself.

    Of course, if we choose to define the “Holocaust” in a different manner, say as a proto-religious teaching based on extreme but vague war propaganda, claiming that undefined, formless but terrible, events, many of them miraculous, happened to Jews in such a manner that they are collectively entitled to financial compensation, as well as the Jewish state of Israel exempted from the basic standards of civilised behaviour, then the “Holocaust” may indeed be considered “a fact” — though hardly an appropriate subject for any historical debate.

    Educate yourself. Try http://www.codoh.com

    Short introduction to the amazing gas chambers here:
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=976870941610001004

  29. Sure, MoRon the APauling doesn’t hate Israel. He just calls Israel an “occupier”, advocates loudly for cutting off all financial support to Israel (but never to its enemies)

    I’m hardly a Ron Paul fan, but if you can show a citation showing Rep. Paul want to give money to Hamas, Syria, Hezbollah, or any other enemy of Israel I’d love to see it. It sounds very much like you are making things up.

  30. Well, they [David Irving and Ron Paul] both hate Israel

    Criticizing Israeli foreign policy is tantamount to hating Israel?

    [T]hey both hang with Nazis, they both welcome Holocaust deniers to their forums[…]

    What forums?

    [T]hey both advocate Neville Chamberlain’s approach to diplomacy with fascist dictators[…]

    They both advocate this? Also, why are you saying they advocate a Chamberlain-type approach? What would be such an approach?

    [A]nd they both blame the current economic crisis on Jewish bankers.

    Can you back that one up with facts? I don’t know about Irving, but Ron Paul blames the current crisis on the FED, so unless you can show that RP blames the crisis on Jewish bankers (whoever they are), then your assertion is totally false, EVEN if Irving does blame it all on the Jewish bankers, since you are saying that BOTH assert the same thing.

    Sure, [Ron Paul] doesn’t hate Israel. He just calls Israel an “occupier”

    He has said it ACTS as an occupier, which that country does.

    advocates loudly for cutting off all financial support to Israel (but never to its enemies)

    This is an outright lie – he has advocated to cutting funding to both Israel AND the Arab nations, purportedly the “enemies” of Israel.

    [R]efuses to acknowledge that Israel’s enemies are all terrorists

    Of course he refuses, because it is preposterous and irrational to think like that . . . Oh, sorry, YOU think like that . . . Oh, well.

    [A]nd says nary a word about all the wars of aggression against it by all those ethnic Jordanians squatting in Israel’s back yard.

    You mean the wars against the occupier?

  31. I’ve never, ever heard Paul support foriegn aid for Israel’s enemies. Or ANYONE. That’s kind of the point with Ron Paul dude.

    Dr. No, remember?

    “[A]nd says nary a word about all the wars of aggression against it by all those ethnic Jordanians squatting in Israel’s back yard.”

    Dude, no Israel-Palestine threads for me today, but I have to say the ones in Gaza really had to hoof it I guess!

  32. To ktc2:

    May I help you with a definition?

    The “Holocaust”: A vast German conspiracy to secretly exterminate an entire race in the hope future historians would be at a loss to determine what had happened to it, resulting in approximately 6 million murdered Jews, naturally with no procedural plan, no written orders at any level, no assigned method of mass murder or bureaucratic control, leaving it to the imagination of a whole bunch of telepathic improvisers who came up with mass execution by such methods as steam, electrocution, non-toxic Diesel exhaust and Zyklon B insecticide, not leaving the slightest vestige of such a carnage accessible to forensic examination in any of its precisely located alleged sites. And, of course, leaving survivors galore from such alleged “extermination centers” as Auschwitz to go on exhuberatingly manifesting themselves all over the globe more than 60 years later.

    Please note that you’re the one who seems to believe the “Holocaust” was an unbelievable conspiracy. I believe it was simply a convergence of interests in a common lie, together with the nearly inexhaustible human capacity to believe in fairy tales. My conspiracy requires only a common will to believe in fairy tales, while yours requires a fairy tale proper, complete with devils, ogres, monsters, miracles and saints.

  33. Strands of the Fuhrer’s hair are also expected to go on sale for ?130,000.

    Speaking of Jew-killers, I wonder what Bernie Madoff’s hair will be worth in 30 years?

  34. Assmark,

    What kind of childhood did you have? I’m just curious what it is that creates the kind of psycho who wants to join the losing side of WW2.

    -jcr

  35. One conspiracy leads to another, and pretty soon you end up believing in all of them. I have met Troofers who also deny the holocaust. Several of them. They will deny being a denier [sic] in public, but if they think you are one of them, then they’ll start talking about holocaust myths, Roswell, faked moon landings, alien autopsies, misspellings in the sixteenth amendment, Icke’s reptiles, etc. There is nothing so ludicrous that they will not gladly stake their faith in it.

  36. Why is it the same people saying “NO MORE JEWS” also insist the holocaust couldn’t possibly have happened? Genocidal racists refuse to believe in the existence of genocidal racists.

  37. You mean the wars against the occupier?

    I mean the wars of ethnic Jordanian squatters against the rightful owners of those lands. I guess you must be with the terrorists and squatters on this; figures. So why don’t you admit you just like these anti-semitic policies of his instead of trying to pretend they’re not his policies? What are you so ashamed of, losers?

    Incidentally, here’s a more prominent one of those nonexistent Holocaust Deniers on that forum of his:

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=4123

    Sure, The APauling MoRon may have advocated cutting ALL foreign aid, which presumably includes aid to Israel’s enemies, but when did he specifically name any of them and attack them? When did he acknowledge the endless atrocities they have committed and continue to commit against Israel? When in his whole campaign did he make the least bit of effort to distance himself from any of the Jew haters, 9/11 truthers, and other nutjobs flocking to his banner in huge numbers?

    Never, that’s when. That’s because, as States Rights was to Slavery with the Confederates, so too is Opposing Foreign Aid to Hating Israel for Paul & co.

    Oh, and screw you too, 0 supporters. I don’t like any political Messiahs, be they from StormFront, LewRockwell, or Bill Ayers and Jeremiah Wright.

  38. When did he acknowledge the endless atrocities they have committed and continue to commit against Israel?

    Due to your continual refusal to speak out against the Rwandan genocide, I can only conclude you hate black people. Time and time again, you have failed to mention the deaths of millions. Not worth your time? There are millions of innocent people killed and here you are prattling on about Ron Paul. Racist anti-african scum!

  39. Hitler bearss

  40. Geez, all I meant was that with Ron Paul’s racist reord he’d probably get along pretty well with david irving. I don’t know about Israel. Is Ron Paul an anti-Semite, too?

  41. I generally like Ron Paul, but he did tell Howard Fineman in a Newsweek video interview that, if it were up to him, Israel wouldn’t exist.

    I think that goes a little beyond just not wanting to give aid to it, with which I fully agree.

  42. You know it’s only a matter of time before some Neo-Nazi takes a strand of Hitler’s hair and creates a Hitler clone.

  43. Colin,

    I’m assuming he meant it shouldn’t exist as in ‘not created in the first place.’

  44. Brandybuck: They will deny being a denier [sic] in public, but if they think you are one of them, then they’ll start talking about holocaust myths, Roswell, faked moon landings, alien autopsies, misspellings in the sixteenth amendment, Icke’s reptiles, etc. There is nothing so ludicrous that they will not gladly stake their faith in it.

    He-llo-oh, Mr. Brandybuck, anyone there?

    Didn’t you know crashed UFOs, faked moon landings, alien autopsies, misspellings in the sixteenth amendment and secret reptilian humanoids are on a par with “Holocaust” affirmationism, and indeed all other established religions, as far as human incurably credulous self-satisfaction goes?

    Care to tell me why do you credulous folks believe in the legendary 6 million ghosts and the amazing jumping gas chambers (you know, it’s Dachau Buchenwald or Natzwiller at one time, then Sachsenhausen, Buchenwald or Ravensbruck, then Auschwitz or Treblinka, then simply the “little white house” and the “little red house” in Birkenau etc. etc.)?

    If that’s not ludicrous what is?

  45. Wow! This thread has gone to a place that I, even in a full retard epileptic seizure of ignorance based snark, have nothing to say.

  46. Brotherben, you do sound like one of those, but, well, at least you’ve nothing to say. I can live with that. What I can’t stand is the blind belief with no reasons adduced so typical of the real holocaustian retards.

  47. He-llo-oh, Mr. Brandybuck, anyone there?

    Didn’t you know crashed UFOs, faked moon landings, alien autopsies, misspellings in the sixteenth amendment and secret reptilian humanoids are on a par with “Holocaust” affirmationism, and indeed all other established religions, as far as human incurably credulous self-satisfaction goes?

    Care to tell me why do you credulous folks believe in the legendary 6 million ghosts and the amazing jumping gas chambers (you know, it’s Dachau Buchenwald or Natzwiller at one time, then Sachsenhausen, Buchenwald or Ravensbruck, then Auschwitz or Treblinka, then simply the “little white house” and the “little red house” in Birkenau etc. etc.)?

    If that’s not ludicrous what is?

    Let me guess: you’re obese, poor, and ugly, like all the other Uebermenschen.

  48. jcr sez This country doesn’t need a leader, we need a manager to take care of the work we give him to do.

    Mister we could use a man like Calvin Coolidge again!

  49. I mean the wars of ethnic Jordanian squatters against the rightful owners of those lands.

    Those lands… WHAT lands? How do you know those “ethnic Jordanians” (whatever THAT is supposed to mean – it’s like saying “ethnic Pittsburgians”) are squatters?

    I guess you must be with the terrorists and squatters on this; figures

    So I guess you cannot argue except by flinging innuendo.

    So why don’t you admit you just like these anti-semitic policies of his instead of trying to pretend they’re not his policies? What are you so ashamed of, losers?

  50. I mean the wars of ethnic Jordanian squatters against the rightful owners of those lands.

    Those lands… WHAT lands? How do you know those “ethnic Jordanians” (whatever THAT is supposed to mean – it’s like saying “ethnic Pittsburgians”) are squatters?

    I guess you must be with the terrorists and squatters on this; figures

    So I guess you cannot argue except by flinging innuendo.

    So why don’t you admit you just like these anti-semitic policies of his instead of trying to pretend they’re not his policies? What are you so ashamed of, losers?

  51. I mean the wars of ethnic Jordanian squatters against the rightful owners of those lands.

    Those lands… WHAT lands? How do you know those “ethnic Jordanians” (whatever THAT is supposed to mean – it’s like saying “ethnic Pittsburgians”) are squatters?

    I guess you must be with the terrorists and squatters on this; figures

    So I guess you cannot argue except by flinging innuendo.

    So why don’t you admit you just like these anti-semitic policies of his instead of trying to pretend they’re not his policies? What are you so ashamed of, losers?

    Ah, sorry, knucklehead, but I do not answer loaded questions.

    Sure, [Ron Paul] may have advocated cutting ALL foreign aid, which presumably includes aid to Israel’s enemies, but when did he specifically name any of them and attack them?

    Why would the last thing be contingent to the first? Why would he have to name names if he’s already stating something that’s already in the CONSTITUTION, which is basically that the CONSTITUTION does not ALLOW for foreign aid to anybody?

    When did he acknowledge the endless atrocities they have committed and continue to commit against Israel?

    Like WHAT? The puny rockets lobbed at random? WHAT purported “atrocities” could possibly compare to the THOUSANDS the Israeli army has massacred already?

    When in his whole campaign did he make the least bit of effort to distance himself from any of the Jew haters, 9/11 truthers, and other nutjobs flocking to his banner in huge numbers?

    You must have been living under a rock, because he was asked many times about his supposed supporters, and every single time he distanced himself from their ideology.

    Never, that’s when.

    Ha, you ask and you answer your own question. Cute.

    That’s because, as States Rights was to Slavery with the Confederates, so too is Opposing Foreign Aid to Hating Israel for Paul & co.

    That’s it. You’re a kook. Equating what amounts to THE VERY REASON the Revolution was fought, the Articles of the Confederation were written and the Constitution ratified, to slavery, is too much for my patience.

    Sorry for the repetition – bad HTML code

  52. max hats: Let me guess: you’re obese, poor, and ugly, like all the other Uebermenschen.

    Let me guess: you have no better arguments and you can’t stand the thought…
    ;^)

  53. No, your arguments are so obviously ludicrous they are not worth mentioning. I suppose it’s a coincidence Europe’s large Jewish population almost completely disappeared at the same the Nazis had most of it conquered? It’s remarkable that I meet so many more jews with German names in a week in America than I met in a year in Germany.

    Amazing series of coincidences. A bunch of homicidal antisemites take power in Germany, Germany conquers most of Europe, and then all on their own millions of jews lose their property and disappear. To even start to believe the shit you are spewing, you need to have a complete disconnect with anything approaching reality.

    Why is a Portuguese fascist posting on an American libertarian blog anyway? I wasn’t aware asylums offered all night internet access.

  54. I don’t get why people who like doing shoddy research and creating alternative histories don’t just write fiction…I haven’t read his work but it seems from his excerpts that Irving could be a decent fiction writer. But then again, people thought Protocols of the Elders of Zion was real…

  55. Oh, and I agree about ‘Eva Braun Vertebra’. Prog-metal band waiting to happen.

  56. Said max hats: I suppose it’s a coincidence Europe’s large Jewish population almost completely disappeared at the same [time] the Nazis had most of it conquered? It’s remarkable that I meet so many more jews with German names in a week in America than I met in a year in Germany.

    Of course you do. The amazing thing is you apparently think they have come to America from another planet, in spite of their German names and general earthly looks. Hey, maybe they’re some kind of “Icke’s Jews” (see Mr. Brandybuck’s post above).

    On the other hand, maybe the “extermination” wasn’t one, and that’s why you’re able to meet so many “survivors”, even though more than 60 years have gone by, and many more must necessarily have died between 1945 and 2009.

    My alternative to your 6 million oracular wisdom that tumbles down from the clouds is as follows:

    1) HARD DATA OF JEWISH ORIGIN:

    Whenever it’s possible to peek into the Kadosh Hakadashim without having to pass by the censoring high and not-so-high priests, since no other real data exists:

    http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/revu/TI97/TI971122.html
    [Scroll further down after the Israeli estimate to the commentaries by Faurisson and Nordling.]

    2) DEMOGRAPHIC ANALYSIS:

    Here are the very few book studies you’ll be able to find:

    — The only meticulous book-length study from the viewpoint of population statistics ever done is “The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry” by Walter Sanning (1983). Sanning uses Jewish originated data and estimates at 3.500.000 the total number of Jews in the German sphere of influence for the duration of the War, and at 2.400.000 the number of Jews alive at the end of the War in the countries previously occupied by Germany (with the exclusion of the USSR). His conclusions are confirmed by Carl Nordling — a Finnish demographer, applying statistical inference to samples of known individual histories — who places the total of Jewish victims of the concentration camps at between 300.000 and 600.000 (see articles by Nordling below).

    — For your reference, an anthology titled “Dimension des V?lkermords” was edited in 1991 for the Institut f?r Zeitgeschichte by Wolfgang Benz, obviously as an attempt to fill the embarassing vacuum. It’s a weak pot-pourri of recycled extermination allegations with no connecting rationale other than the 6 million necessary figure (even though Benz denies this).

    — You’ll find an interesting comparison of those two books by Germar Rudolf, who doesn’t exactly follow any of them, here (Rudolf was deported from the “land of the brave and the free” where he had taken refuge, and is currently in jail in Germany for crimethought):

    http://vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndstats.html

    — I also found “Richard Korherr and his Reports” by Stephen Challen (1993) quite convincing. It’s a translation of, and commentary on, the secret reports sent by Richard Korherr (who had the post of “Inspector of Statistics for the Reichsfuehrer-SS”) to Himmler on the Jewish deportations. Challen reaches the following figures: 1.200.000 Jews dead for the whole of Europe during the War, 450.000 of them in parts of European Russia not occupied by the Germans, and 750.000 in the area of German direct or indirect responsibility. According to him, out of 2.300.000 deported Jews, 360.000 died, and a total of 200.000 of those died in the concentration camps. He considers the Jewish losses “heavy”, but in proportion to the German or Soviet ones, and no more than about 20 % of what is usually believed.

    A few more references:

    ‘The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry’: An Exchange
    http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v05/v05p367_Rubenstein.html

    Critique of John S. Conway’s Review of Walter Sanning’s Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry, From The International History Review, August, 1985
    http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p375_Desjardins.html

    John S. Conway’s review previously criticised (quoted)
    http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p379_Conway.html

    How Many Jews Were Eliminated by the Nazis?
    http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v04/v04p-61_Hankins.html

    3) STATISTICAL INFERENCE BASED ON RELEVANT SAMPLES:

    The Jewish Establishment under Nazi-Threat and Domination 1938-1945
    http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v10/v10p195_Nordling.html

    How Many Jews Died in the German Concentration Camps?
    http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v11/v11p335_Nordling.html

    Why is a Portuguese

    Right on. How did you guess?

    fascist

    Wrong. In fact I spend a part of my time trying to make fascists see the evils of fascism. Difficult but not impossible.
    http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=35443&highlight=#35443
    http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=35068&highlight=#35068

    posting on an American libertarian blog anyway?

    Oh, sometimes I try to make Reason-style pseudo-libertarians see the advantages of reasoning. Also difficult but not impossible.

    I wasn’t aware asylums offered all night internet access.

    I guess you won’t be getting any sleep now that you’ve discovered.

  57. Oh, sometimes I try to make Reason-style pseudo-libertarians see the advantages of reasoning.

    ???? So you reason with people to try to get them to see the benefits of reasoning…

    or????

  58. Said Art-P.O.G.: ???? So you reason with people to try to get them to see the benefits of reasoning… or????

    Of course I do. It’s really a confrontation of faiths isn’t it?

    See here if this sort of profound insight leaves you slightly confused:

    http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=34955&highlight=#34955

    Art-P.O.G.: I don’t get why people who like doing shoddy research and creating alternative histories don’t just write fiction…

    You mean this sort of thing?

    — Mass graves expelling geysers of blood [1]

    — Acid or boiling-water baths to produce human skeletons [2]

    — Injections into the eyes of inmates to change their eye color [3]

    — Production of shrunken heads from bodies of inmates [4]

    — Skimming off boiling human fat from open-air cremation fires [5]

    — Out of pity for complete strangers – a Jewish mother and her child – an SS-man leaps into the gas chamber voluntarily at the last second in order to die with them [6]

    — Soap production from human fat, solemn burial of soap [7]

    — Underground mass extermination in enormous rooms, by means of high voltage electricity [8]

    — Killing in vacuum chamber or with steam or chlorine gas [9]

    — Mass graves with hundreds of thousands of bodies, removed without a trace within a few weeks; a true miracle of improvisation on the part of the Germans [10]

    — Gas chambers on wheels in Treblinka, which dumped their victims directly into burning pits; delayed-action poison gas that allowed the victims to leave the gas chambers and walk to the mass graves by themselves [11]

    — Electrical conveyor-belt executions [12]

    — Cremation of bodies in blast furnaces [13]

    — SS bicycle races in the gas chamber of Birkenau [14]

    — Removal of corpses by means of blasting, i.e. blowing them up [15]

    — Blue haze after gassing with hydrocyanic acid (which is colorless) [16]

    — Singing of national anthems and the Internationales by the victims in the gas chamber; evidence for atrocity propaganda of Communist origin [17]

    — Rapid-construction portable gas chamber sheds [18]

    — Killing by drinking a glass of liquid hydrocyanic acid [19]

    — Muscles cut from the legs of executed inmates contract so strongly that it makes the buckets jump about [20]

    — Introduction of Zyklon gas into the gas chambers of Auschwitz through shower heads or from steel bottles [21]

    — The SS made sausage in the crematoria out of human flesh [22]

    — Mummified human thumbs were used as light switches in the house of Ilse Koch, wife of KZ commander Koch (Buchenwald) [23]

    — Breathed through a keyhole in a gas chamber door at Flossburg to stay alive, cursed the SS when they opened the door, then ran away [24]
    ____________________________________

    Sources:

    [1] A. R?ckerl, op. cit. (note 141), p. 273f.; E. Wiesel, Paroles d’Etranger, Editiondu Seuil, Paris 1982, p. 86; A. Eichmann, in: H. Arendt, op. cit. (note 179), p.184; B. Naumann, op. cit. (note 142), p. 214.
    [2] F. M?ller, in: H. Langbein, op. cit. (note 151), v. 1, p. 87; witness Wells in the Eichmann Trial, in: F. J. Scheidl, op. cit. (note 74), v. 4, p. 236.
    [3] H. Langbein, Menschen in Auschwitz, op. cit. (note 152), pp. 383f.
    [4] H. Langbein, ibid., p. 381.
    [5] R. H??, in: M. Broszat (ed.), op. cit. (note 71), p. 130; H. Tauber, in: J.-C. Pressac, op. cit. (note 17), pp. 489f.; F. M?ller, Sonderbehandlung, Steinhausen,Munich 1979, pp. 207f., 217ff.; H. Langbein, Menschen in Auschwitz, op. cit.(note 152), p. 148; B. Naumann, op. cit. (note 142), pp. 10, 334f., 443; S. Steinberg, according to: Franz?sisches B?ro des Informationsdienstes ?berKriegsverbrechen (ed.), Konzentrationslager Dokument 321, Reprint 2001, Frankfurt/Main 1993, p. 206; and many more.
    [6] E. Bonhoeffer, op. cit. (note 213), pp. 48f.
    [7] S. Wiesenthal, Der neue Weg (Vienna), 15/16 & 17/18, 1946; the Soviets wanted to make this one of the charges at the IMT (exhibit USSR-393), but this plan failed due to the other Allies; cf. H. H?rtle, Freispruch f?r Deutschland, Sch?tz, G?ttingen 1965, pp. 126ff.; the Greenwood Cemetery in Atlanta (Georgia, USA) is not the only site to boast a Holocaust-memorial gravestone for 4 bars of “Jewish soap”. Cf. also the following corrections: R. Harwood, D. Felderer, JHR 1(2) (1980) pp. 131-139; M. Weber, JHR 11(2) (1991) pp. 217-227.
    [8] Aside from C. Mattogno, op. cit. (note 339), cf. esp. S. Szende, Der letzte Jude aus Polen, Europa-Verlag, Z?rich 1945; S. Wiesenthal, Der neue Weg (Vienna), 19/20, 1946.
    [9] Aside from C. Mattogno, op. cit. (note 339), cf. esp. W. Grossmann, Die H?lle von Treblinka, Verlag f?r fremdsprachige Literatur, Moscow 1947; The Black Book of Polish Jewry, Roy Publishers, New York 1943.
    [10] Aside from note 349, cf. also W. Benz, Dimension des V?lkermords, Oldenbourg, Munich 1991; pp. 320, 469, 479, 489, 537ff.
    [11] Reports of the Polish underground movement, Archiv der Polnischen Vereinigten Arbeiterpartei, 202/III, v. 7, pp. 120f., quoted in: P. Longerich, op. cit.(note 271), p. 438.
    [12] Pravda, Feb. 2, 1945, cf. U. Walendy, Historische Tatsachen No. 31: “Die Befreiung von Auschwitz 1945”, Verlag f?r Volkstum und Zeitgeschichtsforschung, Vlotho 1987, p. 4.
    [13] H. von Moltke, Briefe an Freya 1939-1945, Beck, Munich 1988, p. 420; cf. P. Longerich (ed.), op. cit. (note 271), p. 435; Pravda, Feb. 2, 1945.
    [14] N?rnberger Nachrichten, Sept. 11, 1978, report about eyewitness testimony in the jury court trial in Aschaffenburg.
    [15] R. H??, in: M. Broszat (ed.), op. cit. (note 71), pp. 161f.; A. R?ckerl, NS-Prozesse, op. cit. (note 127), p. 78; H. Grabitz, NS-Prozesse., op. cit. (note191), p. 28.
    [16] R. B?ck, Frankfurt Public Prosecutor’s Office, Ref. 4 Js 444/59, pp. 6881f.
    [17] H. G. Adler, H. Langbein, E. Lingens-Reiner (eds.), Auschwitz – Zeugnisse und Berichte, Europ?ische Verlagsanstalt, Cologne 1984, p. 76.
    [18] R. Aschenauer (ed.), Ich, Adolf Eichmann, Druffel, Leoni 1980, pp. 179f.
    [19] Verdict of the Hannover District Court, Ref. 2 Ks 1/60; cf. H. Lichtenstein, op. cit. (note 84), p. 83.
    [20] F. M?ller, op. cit. (note 345), p. 74.
    [21] M. Scheckter and a report of June 4, 1945, written by an officer of the 2nd Armored Division, about Auschwitz; Franz?sisches B?ro des Informationsdienstes ?ber Kriegsverbrechen (ed.), op. cit. (note 345), p. 184.
    [22] David Ol?re, in J.-C. Pressac, op. cit. (note 17), p. 554, fourth column, lines 17-22.
    [23] Kurt Glass, New York Times, April 10 1995, from: ‘Death Was Our Destiny’, p.49-50, by Arnold Friedman, Vantage Press, 1972.
    [24] Arnold Friedman, Death Was Our Destiny, Vantage Press, 1972, p.49-50

  59. ASM,

    The only books I’ve read on the Holocaust are “Man’s Search for Meaning” by Victor Frankl and “Maus” by Art Spiegelman (I’m lying, there’ve been other books, but I can’t immediately recall the few of them). In context, maybe only 1 or 2 of those claims seem ‘sensational’ to me. Does it surprise you that the Nazis gave authority to people like Mengele?

  60. What the fuck?!?! I’m gone for a week and this is what I find when I return? Portugese fascist holocaust deniers running amok? Puta merda!

  61. Said Art-P.O.G.: The only books I’ve read on the Holocaust [etc.]

    I would recommend these short introductory essays to you:
    http://www.codoh.com/info/infoihr/ihrleafdex.html

    Also, given your radical ignorance (a fact, not a sin, unless it makes you proud) of the “Holocaust” matters, this forthcoming book:
    http://www.debatingtheholocaust.com/

    [Question: How do you produce the quote marking in your messages? By html tag?]

  62. I don’t have *radical ignorance* of the Holocaust, I’m just not a “historical scholar”. My “expertise” lays in other areas.

    ignoring the outer brackets, you make quote tags like [

    text

    ]

  63. Huh…I was wondering if that would work…apparently not…well, ignore the spaces then < blockquote > text < /blockquote >

  64. Said Art-P.O.G.: I don’t have *radical ignorance* of the Holocaust (…)

    Believe me, you do, or else you would be putting the meaningless word within quote marks. See my first message above.

    [Speaking of quote marks, thanks for the “blockquote” hint.]

  65. Naga Sadow: Portugese fascist holocaust deniers running amok?

    “Estonian” (as rumors have it) will be easier for you to spell:
    https://www.reason.com/blog/show/131593.html#1208070

  66. AS(s)MARQUES HAD FORGED PAPERS AND IS NEITHER PORTUGUESE NOR ESTONIAN. HE’S ACTUALLY FROM BUFFALO, LIVES IN HIS GRANDMA’S BASEMENT, AND REALLY LIKES EATING CHEETOS AND MAKING PORNOGRAPHIC LOLCATS, THAT HE CALLS “FWAPPUSSAEZ” AND THINKS IS AMUSING.

  67. What the shit is going on here? Nazi punks, fuck off.

  68. Asswipe,

    Somehow I find that the testimony of concentration camp survivors, allied soldiers who liberated the death camps, and the literal tons of documentation that the Nazis themselves created and weren’t able to destroy before the allies overran them far more convincing than the screeds that scumbags like you cut-and-paste on various web forums.

    The holocaust happened, and what you are trying to do by denying it is get your brown-shirt buddies another shot at genocide. Fuck you, and fuck everyone who helps you.

    -jcr

  69. I am a German war hero who would be disgusted if I had lived to see the degeneration of German civilization in the 1930s. And to think that Hermann Goering was involved!

  70. Manfred,

    Glad I could spare you the disgrace of having to take orders from that demented little paperhanger. You fought well and bravely, not like those SS cowards.

  71. “He just calls Israel an “occupier”, advocates loudly for cutting off all financial support to Israel (but never to its enemies)”

    WTF are you talking about? I don’t think I’ve heard Ron Paul advocating any aid to Israel’s enemies.

  72. Other guy’s logic:

    disliking Israeli foreign policy=hating Israel=hating all Jewish people.

  73. Asswipe,

    How do you do. Thank you but no thanks, I do my own toilet.

    Somehow I find that the testimony of concentration camp survivors,

    Mr. Wipe, You know human testimony is the most fragile kind of evidence there is, and human testimony under the conditions that prevailed at the end of the War is very fragile indeed. Witnesses often lie with political or financial gain in mind (do read a couple of “Holocaust” bestselling “true memoirs” with your mind in alert mode to see what I mean), or for the simple purpose of revenge, or they may have a misconstrued perception of the tragic events they lived through under duress.

    Its value is very limited and it becomes invalidated if contradictory hard facts exist, or if it falls outside the domain of the possible. If a hundred eyewitnesses swear they have seen you eat an entire truck in a single seating, that means a hundred false witnesses are lying or falling prey to their overactive imaginations, not that you have a strong stomach and were very hungry. Same with the thousands that swear the Virgin Mary made the Sun dance and flower petals rain from the sky over Fatima in 1917, or that smokeless coke cremations produced smoke over Birkenau in 1944. See with your own eyes what you’re required to believe:

    ONE PICTURE = 1000 WORDS

    Perhaps you should get acquainted with the sort of “testimony” paraded — generally under the form of non-presential affidavits without the slightest chance of cross-examination — at the Nuremberg show-trials (among other less known trials). Try:

    Nuremberg looney tunes:
    http://www.cwporter.com/partone.htm
    http://www.cwporter.com/parttwo.htm
    http://www.cwporter.com/partthre.htm
    http://www.cwporter.com/partfour.htm
    http://www.cwporter.com/pg368.htm

    allied soldiers who liberated the death camps,

    You probably mean the famous piles of bodies and the walking skeletons photographed from all angles in a very few places (basically Belsen and Dachau where many healthy inmates were also photographed, and Nordhausen where, by the way, many deaths among the inmates were caused by an Allied bombing).

    Well, how would you yourself explain the situation? Did the administrations of the camps where such photos were taken keep them full of walking skeletons starved on purpose and quite unable to work just for the fun of it? And why would they be intent on provoking or allowing epidemics that would put in risk the lives of the SS personnel themselves?

    Obviously the situation arising from the unwarranted conditions at camps like Bergen-Belsen in 1945, was an uncalled for result of a catastrophic war. According to the eyewitnesses themselves, in some camps where a complete supply and control breakdown occurred, even the very sick and dying people were taken out of the improvised infirmaries and left naked in the open by stronger inmates who proceeded to take their blankets and clothes from them. It’s the sort of thing that occurs under disastrous abnormal conditions, not an extermination by design from mad Germans who enjoyed overseeing nudist camps full of captive living skeletons.

    The piles of dead bodies indicate just that: dead people, and not necessarily murdered people, unless you establish the unnatural manner of their death. Not a single one of the autopsies performed on the dead bodies found in the camps by the Americans indicated death by poison gas, i.e. many inmates in 1945 were dying from exactly the same causes they kept dying for weeks or months after the liberation. See:

    The Liberation of the Camps: Facts vs. Lies
    http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/libcamps.shtml

    A few readings on the general state of German cities, communications and infrastructure should give you some indication as to the reasons for that. Not to speak of such photos as the ones Victor Gollancz — one of those “Righteous among the Jews” that might deserve to have trees planted in their name (if my tongue-in-cheek adaptation of the Jewish clich? doesn’t offend you as an implicit slur against non-exceptional Jews) — took of German children equally reduced to the condition of walking skeletons scavenging among the bombed ruins.

    Use your head and leave aside the absurd clich?s: do you think the German guards in those last days were intent on having themselves hung for mass murder? If the Commandant of Belsen had had any perception that the Allies would blame him without taking into account the uncontrollable situation that the Allies themselves weren’t able to control for months, even with their unlimited supplies and medicines, would he have stayed to meet them and ask for urgent relief? Try:

    Bergen-Belsen Camp: The suppressed story
    http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v15/v15n3p23_Weber.html

    Lessons from Dachau
    http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v09/v09p485_Cobden.html

    Can you see any obvious explanation for the mass deaths after the liberation? Were the Allies trying to exterminate the Jews? Of course you can, and of course they weren’t. Now go back a few weeks. Think about it. Look at the monthly casualty figures at Dachau in the link above, for instance. Was it simply because the Germans thought it was good fun to have thousands of walking skeletons around in the last couple of months of the war? If you look for them you’ll find plenty of images of healthy-looking prisoners (from Dachau, for instance), side by side with the naked living skeletons you see all the time, often collected in the infirmaries of the camps for the photos.

    See also this interesting movie about the Spanish communists interned in Mauthausen with lots of scenes from the liberation. Some important comments in English here in order for you to understand the relevance of the movie in the light of Paul Rassinier’s writings on the inner functioning of the camps (look for them if you can: you’ll find them online, at least in French, not sure about English, sorry).

    and the literal tons of documentation that the Nazis themselves created and weren’t able to destroy before the allies overran them far more convincing than the screeds that scumbags like you cut-and-paste on various web forums.

    Wrong again.

    I see you haven’t even gone to the trouble of reading your own people. Read any “Holocaust scholar”: what he’ll be telling you is there no documentation because the alleged extermination was a secret enterprise supposed to be conducted without any paper work at all, in order to avoid leaving any traces that might explain the disappearance of the entire Jewish race. That’s what you’re supposed to believe: genocide by telepathy and wink-wink nod-nod understanding all the way down the chain of command. As Raul Hilberg puts it:

    “But what began in 1941 was a process of destruction not planned in advance, not organized centrally by any agency. There was no blueprint and there was no budget for destructive measures. They [these measures] were taken step by step, one step at a time. Thus came about not so much a plan being carried out, but an incredible meeting of minds, a consensus — mind reading by a far-flung bureaucracy.”

    See: Genocide By Telepathy, Hilberg Explains
    http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n1p15_Faurisson.html

    Crazy? Well, yes, but then this is the “Holocaust” wonderland where the usual standards of proof and consistency break down, remember?

    Well, how about the 6 million? Could it be that they come straight out of the cabalistic night of times? You know, six days to create the World, six-pointed stars, six extermination camps…

    Have you noticed this earlier instance of the 6 million figure dating from 1919 (yes, that’s nineteen hundred nineteen) in “The American Hebrew,” October 31, 1919 (page 582), The Crucifixion of Jews Must Stop! by Martin H. Glynn, former Governor of the State of N.Y.?

    “From across the sea six million men and women call to us for help, and eight hundred thousand little children cry for bread. These children, these men and women are our fellow-members of the human family, with the same claim on life as we, the same susceptibility to the winter’s cold, the same propensity to death before the fangs of hunger. Within them reside the illimitable possibilities for the advancement of the human race as naturally would reside in six million human beings. We may not be their keepers but we ought to be their helpers. In the face of death, in the throes of starvation there is no place for mental distinctions of creed, no place for physical differentiations of race. In this catastrophe, when six million human beings are being whirled toward the grave by a cruel and relentless fate, only the most idealistic promptings of human nature should sway the heart and move the hand. Six million men and women are dying from lack of the necessaries of life; eight hundred thousand children cry for bread. And this fate is upon them through no fault of their own, through no transgression of the laws of God or man; but through the awful tyranny of war and a bigoted lust for Jewish blood. In this threatened holocaust of human life (…)”

    Holocaust of human life? Six million calling for help? Bigoted lust for Jewish blood? In 1919? “Crucifixion of Jews” when all sorts of people had starved all over Germany as a result of the Allied post-armistice blockade?

    Does that sound familiar or what?

    Equally intriguing, how come the figure of 6 million was already known to the US Congress in March 1945, at a time when the war was still on, no German top officials or camp administrators had been captured, and no confessions had been obtained, 3 weeks before the Americans took over Dachau and the British took over Belsen, and 6 weeks before the Soviets released their Special Commission Report on Auschwitz? See the following clip (at 08:45):

    Nazi Shrunken Heads
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=631336312738853628

    [There is a small error there: the idiotic “atrocity display” we see in the photos was mounted near Buchenwald, not Nuremberg, but the atrocity bric-? -brac itself was indeed presented and accepted as evidence at a variety of trials, including the ones at Dachau and Nuremberg (the exhibited objects probably came from an anthropological museum near Weimar). The short movie on the whole is accurate and perceptive]

    The holocaust happened,

    Meaning…?

    I mean, why not stop reciting the Credo and explaining instead?

    and what you are trying to do by denying it is get your brown-shirt buddies

    Sorry. Green-shirt rather. See here.

    another shot at genocide.

    Ohmygod. Another “Holocaust” coming. Hide your wallets, folks!

    Fuck you, and fuck everyone who helps you.

    In case you haven’t noticed, you do help (but I don’t really believe I’m able to reciprocate, in your case). Thanks, pal.

    ;^)

  74. THIS IS JUST SO PRECIOUS. THE MANIAC FROM BUFFALO IS DRINKIN’ A MOLSON. CHOWIN ON CHEETOS. DENYIN AWAY!!

  75. THIS IS JUST SO PRECIOUS. THE MANIAC FROM BUFFALO IS DRINKIN’ A MOLSON. CHOWIN ON CHEETOS. DENYIN AWAY!!

    Something like that, Mr. Minion, yes.

    You know, this line of duty can get monotonous, but fortunately it doesn’t require much work, and sometimes it can be fun. Simply a bit of copying & pasting here and there, to disrupt the faithful retards and set them to flight. Not even the great Urkobold himself would be able to create mental wretches capable of reaching the depths of unimaginative repetitiveness of these “Holocaust”-peddling clones, so the antidotes don’t vary a lot either.

    Well, I don’t leave the field without three suns having set in peace over the corpses, but all seems quiet on this front right now, so I guess I’ll be on my way soon. Cheers.

  76. WRONG AGAIN.

    THE URKOBOLD DOES NOT WORRY ABOUT MENTAL WRETCHES. ONLY ABOUT SCANTILY CLAD WENCHES.

  77. Minion: THE URKOBOLD DOES NOT WORRY ABOUT MENTAL WRETCHES. ONLY ABOUT SCANTILY CLAD WENCHES.

    Why so? Did the cat eat his willy, like he seems to have eaten the tongues of the holoshlockers?

    Well, I suppose I can make that two suns.

    Bye.

  78. YOU SILLY DENIZEN OF BUFFALO.

    WRONG ON ALL COUNTS.

  79. wieso redet hier jeder englisch haha die ?berreste von den beiden trotteln xD

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