Walesa Banned, Wilders Detained
Nobel laureate, former Polish prime minister, and hero of the Cold War Lech Walesa will not be allowed to visit Venezuela ahead of that country's referendum on extending the rule of Hugo Chavez. El Jefe told Venezuelan media that Walesa was unwelcome in Caracas, where he was set to meet with opposition student groups, and would be prevented from entering the country. After Walesa cancelled his visit, Chavez claimed that he would, in fact, be allowed through customs but would be "closely monitored" on his visit.
After being told that he wouldn't be allowed out of Heathrow airport, Dutch parliamentarian Geert Wilders flew to England to attend a screening of his short film Fitna in the House of Lords. Fearing that the feelings of its Muslim citizens would be hurt, censorious British authorities detained Wilders and prevented him from exiting the airport. The Dutch MP was quickly dispatched back to Holland by Britain's heroic Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith. Civilization is—thank god—safe and, thanks to Ms. Smith, Wilders is now a free speech martyr. And the understatement of the day goes to Dutch Foreign Minister Maxime Verhagen, who complained to The Times that "The fact that a Dutch parliamentarian is refused entry to another EU country is highly regrettable."
Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Doesn't the action against Wilders violate EU
human rights guarantees, to say nothing of diplomatic immunity to another country's parliament members?
It's great to see Moynihan taking up the cause of people denied the freedom to travel.
But you know, I know where there are literally tens of thousands of people who are being kept at gunpoint from traveling from one nation to another.
They are called "Gazans." I guess that article is in the works...
Oh and my Nooge pre-empt:
Nyah-Nyah.
Yes. Because firing rockets at your neighbors and aid-workers is completely comparable to saying mean things.
When the Gazans stop strapping bombs to their children, I'll sure Israel will let them out of timeout.
I am now starting a countdown to determine how long it will be until joe posts some sort of comment detailing how Chavez is in fact not a totalitarian thug, the closing down of TV stations critical of Chavez was justified and that the US was behind the Venezualan coup, despite findings from multiple independent commissions that the US had no involvement at all.
I would also like to point out that I met many Palestinians in Israel on my last visit. They had IDs, they crossed the border. How is this possible? Well, the people of Bethlehem (which is in Palestinian territory) have learned that attacking the Israelis is pointless, destructive behavior.
Tada! It's amazing how basic decency can earn your way into polite society!
But you know, I know where there are literally tens of thousands of people who are being kept at gunpoint from traveling from one nation to another.
They are called "Gazans." I guess that article is in the works.
This is pure stupidity. Is there a moral equivalance you won't draw when it comes to the people who elected a terrorist gang to lead them, otherwise known as Gazans?
I am now starting a countdown to determine how long it will be until joe posts some sort of comment detailing how Chavez is in fact not a totalitarian thug, the closing down of TV stations critical of Chavez was justified and that the US was behind the Venezualan coup, despite findings from multiple independent commissions that the US had no involvement at all.
I don't remember joe ever defending Chavez...so you might be waiting awhile.
MNG, is there anything Moynihan can write about that doesn't immediately connect to Gaza in your mind?
I can understand why Chavez would want to keep that bourgeois enemy of the working class Lech Walesa out of the Bolivarian socialist paradise that Venezuela is transforming itself into.
What's this fucking idiot going to do next? Take a pot shot at Benedict XVI?
LMNOP,
He hasn't necessarily complimented Chavez personally, but he's maintained that he is a democratically elected leader and must be treated as such.
"Take a pot shot at Benedict XVI?"
He'll need to take a ticket and wait in line with the rest of us.
I don't remember joe ever defending Chavez...so you might be waiting awhile.
I do remember him saying "trust democracy" in regards to the early totalitarian moves of the fuckhead Chavez. He won't even go that far out onto the limb now.
I'm beginning to hope for a military coup. That's only because I have a friend who lives there. Otherwise I'd adopt my default position of "let them stew in their own juices".
The decline of freedom in Europe and Venezuela is a shame. European liberals spent so much time protesting the US, they neglected to defend their own countries.
J sub D,
That would rock if rana took over Venezuela.
"When the Gazans stop strapping bombs to their children"
"Is there a moral equivalance you won't draw when it comes to the people who elected a terrorist gang to lead them"
Uh, let me stop you right there my tribalist friend. Not all Gazans "strap bombs to their children" you know. In fact, I guess you know that while Hamas won a majority of seats in the election of 2006, since there were multiple parties a MAJORITY of Gazans voted AGAINST Hamas. In fact, many Gazans fought Hamas in gun battles in the street soon after.
But you know what? ALL of them are barred travel, trade, etc.
Fearing that the feelings of its Muslim citizens would be hurt, censorious British authorities detained Wilders and prevented him from exiting the airport.
Given that the ostensible justification for detaining him was for "national security" reasons, I would say they were worried about a bit more than "hurt feelings".
Which only makes it all the worse.
Paraphrase of last weeks letter to Wilders: "You're not welcome in our country because we're afraid the Muslims will riot."
Now imagine (say) some store banning blacks from it's premises because it's customers are racist and they are afraid that the KKK will firebomb the place if they let black people shop in it.
Hmmmmm......
"is there anything Moynihan can write about that doesn't immediately connect to Gaza in your mind?"
cunny,
Moynihan's moral and philosophical shutting of the eyes of the incredible and mass nature of collective deprivation of the liberties of "the Gazans" while pissing and moaning about much lesser infringements imposed by right wing boogeymen is certainly not the only area in which he shows his over-riding desire to curry favor with the right at the expense of even a pretence of consistency and integrity, it's just the lowest hanging fruit.
I hate how Chavez rounded up hundreds of thousands of people via force of arms and rules over them not allowing them basic human and political rights.
Oh, that's not the case in Venezula. It's another place I'm thinking of. Now what is that place?
But you know what? ALL of them are barred travel, trade, etc.
I'll grant that closing the border with Egypt is unjustified, but I think that Israel is entitled to close it's own border as an act of self defense.
If you object to that, you should also object to borders entirely. Because every border in the world represents a barrier to travel and trade for individuals. Witness our own illegal immigration problem. Millions of mexicans are denied the right to travel to the US to work every year. Hundreds of millions of people all over the world cannot travel to neighboring countries that are hostile to them.
The very purpose of a border crossing is to regulate who can enter or exit a particular state. Even in an ideal libertarian world, run entirely on voluntary associations, each entity would have the right to restrict access to it's "property".
Hazel
The Egyptian border is closed because of agreement with Israel, Israel went bonkers when they allowed some people to cross not long ago.
I'm not sure all or most libertarians would agree with your idea of borders though, or the idea that the people in nations somehow collectively own the nation as property.
Oh, that's not the case in [Venezuela]. It's another place I'm thinking of. Now what is that place?
Sri Lanka, perhaps?
MNG-
2 yen worth of free advice.
There's at least one other dude that frequently whines that reason either isn't covering the story he wants covered or else isn't covering it in the manner he wants.
Do you want to be that guy? (even it's only at one particular author?)
I'm not sure all or most libertarians would agree with your idea of borders though, or the idea that the people in nations somehow collectively own the nation as property.
Oh sure, right now there's no real "social contract" or agreement to restrict trade and travel. So under the current regime ALL borders are inherently unjust, just because the entire system is based on force. Not just the Gaza-Israel border, but even the US-Mexico border, which millions of people are forcibly prevented from crossing each year - for no other reason than an accident of birth.
But, I'm saying if you had a voluntary association, where all the members were geographically contguous, and agreed to a mutual defense agreement, then what that association would effectively create would be a border, and they could legitimately agree to prevent tresspassing on the members' property.
Thus, borders in themselves are not inherently unjust nor is a blanket closure to certain people unjust. It's only unjust within the context of the current system of states.
However, that makes ALL border closures, trade, and travel restrictions equally unjust. The EU ban on genetically modified crops (say) is no less a restriction on someone's right to trade freely than Israel's border closure is a restriction on Palestinian's right ot trade freely.
I will grant though, that even in the voluntary association context, it wouldn't make sense for them to have the right to restrict access between two other groups or individuals' properties (i.e. Eygpy-Gaza). You could get an agreement between one VA (voluntary association), and another that they would cooperate in enforcing the second border.
It's an interesting question what you would do if there were two large VAs surrounding a smaller one whose memebers continually engaged in acts of violence against the others'. I guess you would say that each VA is entitled to make collective choices according to it's own charter (which everyone agreed to), and barr access to that neighbor or take approperiate violent actions to protect it's members' lives and property.
Kolohe
I appreciate that, though I think there's a difference between those two things. LW used to call out Weigel because he thought Weigel's idea that more open borders was a good thing was wrong; he was in essence arguing that Weigel is wrong and that somehow Weigel knew this but was just not admitting it. My position is that Moynihan is a phony, that his goal is not to be intellectually consistent but to curry favor with right wing readers of H&R. LW said, in effect, "Weigel is crazy to think open borders are a good thing, they'd be terrible and he is failing to report how true my stance is." I'm saying "if Moynihan really believes that state restrictions on trade or movement or state violence done in a collective manner are bad things, then why does he not only not criticize the Israeli restrictions on the Palestinians in these areas, but he actually when given the chance defends these things." It takes pure balls, or as I note real obsequiousness, to get bent out of shape over Chavez's restrictions and ignore or defend those of the IDF...
I think he does these mental gymnastics because, as is easily evident, the right is unforgiving on virtually any criticism of Israeli policy. They will drum your ass out of the club post haste. And he knows how he butters his bread, so to speak, that is by kissing up to the right leaning readers here and elsewhere.
But I appreciate that perceptions are sometimes more important than reality.
Hazel
Interesting comments. Let me make an attempt at a response.
"But, I'm saying if you had a voluntary association, where all the members were geographically contguous, and agreed to a mutual defense agreement, then what that association would effectively create would be a border, and they could legitimately agree to prevent tresspassing on the members' property."
I guess they could make that a condition of the contract behind their voluntary association. But how can the other members (of the VA) tell one of their members that they cannot have someone travel on that latter members property if that is what the member wants? Again, I guess if we agreed to that as part of our initial voluntary association agreement I can see that being OK, but I guess I'd have to say that certainly no nation is made along those lines in the present case (of course you seem to agree with that).
"The EU ban on genetically modified crops (say) is no less a restriction on someone's right to trade freely than Israel's border closure is a restriction on Palestinian's right ot trade freely."
I grant you that, but I submit that one is clearly worse in degree than the other (the E.U. prohibits the movement of those crops, the IDF prohibits the movements of any and all crops, etc).
And Kolohe, way before any Gaza discussions or news I long argued that the only discernible pattern or motivation behind MM's posts seems to be: "hey right wing guy, I hate the same things and people you do, so read this."
Oh, that's not the case in Venezula. It's another place I'm thinking of. Now what is that place?
The Sudan? Iraq? Turkey? Iran? Syria? Am I close?
"The Sudan? Iraq? Turkey? Iran? Syria? Am I close?"
Yes, all horrible oppressive governments. Given all that out there it does seem pretty silly to spill so much outrage over Venezula and Chavez, doesn't it?
I suppose not. Although since this post probably took less than five minutes to write, I don't think it is worth getting upset over.
Can we please stop with the team red/team blue snarking, MNG? Let's put it this way: Do you disagree with the idea that people should be allowed to travel freely, even if they say not-so-nice things? Criticize Moynihan when you see him defending Israel's actions, and I'll back you 95% of the way (we might disagree on minor details). But otherwise, the snarking is getting old.
My position is that Moynihan is a phony, that his goal is not to be intellectually consistent but to curry favor with right wing readers of H&R
Definitly
I think that being banned from Venezuela by a latter-day Castro wannabe is just another of the many honors to which Lech Walesa is due.
Sucks for Venezuelans, though. I wish them the best of luck the next time they try to overthrow that idiot thug who's destroying their country.
-jcr
I'll grant that closing the border with Egypt is unjustified, but I think that Israel is entitled to close it's own border as an act of self defense.
If Egypt actually wanted the border with Gaza opened, it would be open. They know better than to let Hamas operate freely inside of Egypt, and it's handy to let Israel take the heat for keeping them confined.
-jcr
"In fact, I guess you know that while Hamas won a majority of seats in the election of 2006, since there were multiple parties a MAJORITY of Gazans voted AGAINST Hamas. In fact, many Gazans fought Hamas in gun battles in the street soon after.
But you know what? ALL of them are barred travel, trade, etc."
That's the sort of thing that happens when your government is run by violent, extremist loons. Your people get made into pariahs because your neighbors don't trust you. The Gazan government is run by thugs pledged to destroy Israel. There is no one negotiating in good faith to change the Gazans situation. The facts on the ground is that Hamas represents Gaza, until that changes, nothing else likely will.
On the other hand Great Britain and the Netherlands have negotiated a treaty granting free travel across their borders. Whatever one may think about Wilders, the British government is going to grotesque lengths to appease its Muslim population.
Fuck Hugo Chavez. He has a 2 inch penis and he knows it. He is nothing but a little bitch and 2-bit dictator.
Give me a room, a knife, and Chavez, and I will cut off his 2 inch pecker and shove it down his communist throat.
But you know what? ALL of them are barred travel, trade, etc.
Until you can demonstrate a reliable test for which Gazans want to exterminate Jews and which don't, keeping all of them out of Israel is sound policy.
Criticize Moynihan when you see him defending Israel's actions, and I'll back you 95% of the way
Because we all know that Israel's actions are, remarkably, always wrong. Amazing that. Damn those Israeli actions!
Good to see I've been getting under your skin, MNG. Hope I keep you awake at night.
Moynihan: Check out this recipe for strawberry cake, Reasonoids. It's my favorite.
MNG: Fuck you, Moynihan! You know who doesn't get any strawberry fucking cake? Fucking Gazans, that's who! You fucking boot licker! Why don't you tell both sides of the story! You know who doesn't get any cake? Little Palestinian babies, that's who! Palestinian babies who are probably RIGHT NOW having their skulls crushed by the jackbooted thugs of the imperialist Israeli regime! You SICKEN ME, MOYNIHAN AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Ah, Nooge, you finally got over the two sentence barrier! Welcome to paragraphs!
"Fuck Hugo Chavez. He has a 2 inch penis and he knows it."
The disturbing thing is, how do YOU know it?
"Until you can demonstrate a reliable test for which Gazans want to exterminate Jews and which don't, keeping all of them out of Israel is sound policy."
Funny that libertarians don't apply this to pretty much anything else. For example, until we know which immigrants are going to be hard working pluses and which are going to be on welfare or criminals, it is sound policy to keep them all out. Until we can figure out which employers will provide safe products and which will not, better test them all out prior to allowing sale. Etc.
"The Gazan government is run by thugs pledged to destroy Israel."
yummy tribalism! So because their government is bad, we need to punish them all, even those who voted against and resist their government. Hmmm, would you want to apply that to all policies, foriegn and domestic?
Right leaning libertarianism+Israel=wacky mental gymnastics.
"Not all Gazans "strap bombs to their children" you know."
This is what's known as the moderate position.
Stunning. Islam is essentially a religion of defamation and subjugation of non-Muslims. Wilders is exposing that fact, and he's the one who is charged with spreading hate?
The Qur'an is more anti-Semitic than Mein Kampf. Only it doesn't just target Jews. Wilders is merely exercising his free speech rights to point that out.
You know what's funny? I don't think I mentioned Israel and Gaza for literally months before the Holiday Slaughter. And since then I've commented on other topics more (last night I had more to say on the Consumer Protection Act on another thread). And the last time I criticized Moynihan for this very topic I didn't mention Gaza or Israel at all. Instead I pointed out how Moynihan just "happened" to choose an example of the principle of freedom of travel being violated in which the bad guys were "radical Islam" a favorite buga-boo for the right, here he picks one where the bad guys are "evil socialist Chavez", another rightwing fav boogeyman. My point is that Moynihan cherrypicks pretty much every post and tilts it in a way to curry favor with the right leaning readers, not to defends any consistent principle). And THIS is why he cannot critiize Israel, among many other things.
"Not all Gazans "strap bombs to their children" you know."
So, you know which ones will and which ones won't commit atrocities. Nice talent that.
Wilders detained, Walesa denied...
They told me if George Bush were elected President outspoken European parliamentarians would be denied their free-speech rights.
And they were RIGHT! (credit Glenn Reynolds)
"Not all Gazans "strap bombs to their children" you know."
You know, like the leadership of Hamas or the Imams spreading the hate in the armorie...er, mosques.
Some defense -- that's like saying "They didn't beat their wives this week"
The Enlgish denial of Wilders is appalling. THe UK is a member of the EU. There are no borders within the EU. It is a federal union. When you travel from say Viena to Munich they don't stop you at the German border and put you through customs. Crossing the German border is just like crossing a US state border, nothing happens.
This is not a case of a country exercising its sovereighnty. This is like California denying entrance to the leader of the Arizona minutemen because it is worried its Mexican residents might riot. It is just unbelievable and shows how decadent and week the UK has become. Just sad.
"Doesn't the action against Wilders violate EU
human rights guarantees, to say nothing of diplomatic immunity to another country's parliament members?"
Without a doubt. But he offends Muslims, so his rights no longer matter.
How ironic that Britain refuses to hear from a man who wants to warn them about the threats of militant Islam because they're afraid of the reprisals from militant Islam.
Will the last kuffar please turn out the lights?
Petty nitpicking: Walesa was president of Poland, not prime minister.
UK and Ireland opted out of the Schengen agreement, so there are still border controls between those two countries and the rest of the EU. They're minimal for EU citizens, but still exist.
I weep for Gaza. I weep that it wasn't made an empty parking lot forty-one years ago.
It is interesting how multi-cultural liberals bend over backwards to defend Muslims who silently watch their more radial cohorts do crazy things. Why didn't they ever apply this standard to the Jim Crow South or Apartide South Africa? Most southerners in the 1940s and 1950s were nice people. When people made all those movies about the racist South and federalized the National Guard to let those kids go to school in Little Rock, didn't they understand that they were just creating more racists and making it hard for the moderates in the South to have their voices heard?
Well then it sucks for them to be under the control of a terrorist leadership, even if it is a minority government. It sucks even harder that somehow they aren't able to remove it from power (despite being ostensibly unpopular and risking the lives of Gazan residents). It must suck more than a whorehouse with a 2-for-1 special that they live next door to one of the few countries in the world that has a truly modern, powerful military capable of razing Gaza to the ground in a matter of hours if it really wanted to.
The people of Gaza should thank God that Israel is their neighbor, not Russia or China.
Of all monomaniacal pub-bores, is there a class more boring than the ones who wail, "but what about the GAZANS?" no matter how tangentially they are connected to the case in point?
The travel rights of a democratically-elected parliamentarian (for all his faults) are being infringed by a country that is nominally in a union that guarantees freedom of movement, thought and association within that union, and all MNG can think is to compare that to a blockade imposed on a bunch of people who lob rockets at schoolchildren and inflict mediaeval religious jurisprudence on their population. They are linked but not in the arrantly stupid way that MNG thinks. If Gazans ceased in their attempt to eliminate Jews worldwide (and Israelis first) then they would attain the freedom of movement vouchsafed to the West Bank Arabs. If Muslims stopped bombing and beheading and stoning in the name of their God (and threatening to riot whenever upbraided for this) then the raison d'etre for Fitna would not exist.
Some beliefs and peoples need quarantining and suppressing. It's not Lech Walesa or Geert Wilders, and it's not the belief that religious or socialist violence is unacceptable.
"Uh, let me stop you right there my tribalist friend. Not all Gazans "strap bombs to their children" you know."
Not all Germans wanted to invade Poland or stick people in ovens. In fact, a large majority of them or even a majority of them would have preferred none of that happened. Does that mean that the rest of the world should have not defended themselves or invaded and occupied Germany to prevent the ones who did from doing more harm?
Fearing that the feelings of its Muslim citizens would be hurt
See, set off a few bombs in subways and people take you seriously.
bad guys were "radical Islam" a favorite buga-boo for the right
Sigh. From "Never Again" to "a bugaboo for the right" in under eight years.
bad guys were "radical Islam" a favorite buga-boo for the right
Sigh. From "Never Again" to "a bugaboo for the right" in under eight years.
Well, there was that cool Green Day album that came out between then and now. The dude's been enlightened.
mng
"I'm not sure all or most libertarians would agree with your idea of borders though, or the idea that the people in nations somehow collectively own the nation as property."
mng, do you call yourself libertarian, or do you just like to lecture them on blogs?
The idea that people in nations collectively own said nations as property is solidly in the mainstream of libertarianism.
How about you stick to supporting terrorism and not pretend that liberatiansm has anything to do with it?
the bad guys were "radical Islam" a favorite buga-boo for the right
MNG is a one of those "libertarians" who thinks it's an outrage if anyone cannot go anywhere in the world he likes, but is perfectly cool with murder and other serious crimes.
Which is to say he's a retarded lefty clown who tries to co-opt libertarian arguments for his own ends.
mng: while i tend to agree with you re: gaza, you jump into every frickin' thread with moynihan without regard to that, hey, it's incredibly fucked up what the uk or venezuela is doing. this fact is external to mr. moynihan's biases.
Mike DeSoto,
Hear, hear! (you related to Hernando?)
MNG,
FOAD peacefully somewhere else, you lefty clown.
Mike DeSoto,
MNG is not a libertarian, nor has he ever (to my knowledge) claimed to be.
"The idea that people in nations collectively own said nations as property is solidly in the mainstream of libertarianism."
Uh, no, not really. Most libertarians tend to veer away from the idea of collective ownership.
"The travel rights of a democratically-elected parliamentarian"
What the hell does that have to do with it? I would extend that right to anyone who's not a crook.
JB,
Did you take your meds yesterday?
"to a blockade imposed on a bunch of people who lob rockets at schoolchildren and inflict mediaeval religious jurisprudence on their population"
People just can't get past tribalism when talking Israel. So ALL Gazans are in this class of "a bunch of people who lob rockets..."etc?
Fail.
It's a strange day when one finds oneself in agreement (sort of) with LoneWhackOff and MNG, simultaneously (though on different points). I need a drink.
Gazans can die to the last person of starvation unless they rise up collectively, renounce the murdering bastards in their midst, and best Israel for forgiveness for 60 years of killing Jewish babies and drinking their blood in satanic rituals.
(Oh snap, reverse blood libel~)
Anon,
What the hell are you talking about?
All men lose when freedom fails,
The best men land in filthy jails,
And those that cried appease, appease,
Are hung by those they tried to please.
You can tell the size of a man by his actions. Hugo Chavez is a very, very little man.
And for those who defend him: those who defend evil, are evil.
"The fact that a Dutch parliamentarian is refused entry to another EU country is highly regrettable."
Indeed. And as others have noted, this seems to be a violation of EU policies that allow free travel between member states. If the British were worried about Muslim extremists rioting, they should have just had some cops work overtime during his stay there, and made it clear that they'll throw the book at anyone who does riot.
If any anti-freedom sharia advocates are reading, know this:
This denial of entry for Wilders might give you momentary satisfaction. But the war of ideas is not over, and you will not win. You can deport a critic, but you can't deport criticism. This is from the linked Times article:
"On the flight back, Mr Wilders vowed to appeal against the ban and make another attempt to visit Britain soon. But it became clear last night that Jacqui Smith's prohibition order had brought Mr Wilders massive publicity in Britain and many more online searches for his controversial antiIslamist film, Fitna."
Whatever one thinks of Wilders, the extremists depicted in Fitna really are enemies of freedom and reason. The world won't forget this fact merely because the British Home office made a bad decision.
Regarding the Gaza thing, I agree that the world should try to end the restrictions on Gazans' freedom of travel in the near future, particularly the naval blockade. But it is reasonable for Israelis to want there to be some kind of security measures in place before that is done, so this new freedom can't be used to increase the lethality of anti-Israel terrorism. For example, the UN could have a peacekeeping force in Gaza, and a fleet checking ships coming in and out of Gaza for weapons.